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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Robert Lamb. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: It is Saturday, so we have a vault episode for you.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be The Ninja Part four. It

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Speaker 1: originally published eight six, twenty twenty four. Let's dive right.

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Speaker 2: In Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 3: And today we're back with part four of our series

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Speaker 3: on the Ninja. Now, if you haven't heard the previous

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Speaker 3: three episodes, you should probably go back and check those

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Speaker 3: out first, but for a brief refresher. In the previous parts,

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Speaker 3: we talked about the origins of the term ninja and

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Speaker 3: its functional equivalent shanobi no mono, meaning a person who

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Speaker 3: practices sneaking secrecy, invisibility or in an alternate reading patience,

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Speaker 3: or endurance. We talked about the alleged historical origins of

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Speaker 3: the shinobi nomono as practitioners of espionage and undercover warfare

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Speaker 3: in Singoku era Japan, which covered parts of the fifteenth

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Speaker 3: and sixteenth centuries and was characterized by frequent uprisings and

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Speaker 3: civil wars, but we also discussed the complicated historical question

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Speaker 3: of to what extent the people who practiced spying, sabotage,

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Speaker 3: and sneak attacks during this period can actually be said

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Speaker 3: to connect to the modern literary archetype of the ninja,

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Speaker 3: which has evolved over several centuries and is almost certainly

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Speaker 3: composed in large part of legendary development and invented tradition.

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Speaker 3: We talked, especially in the first part of this series,

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Speaker 3: about how the ninja entered international pop culture in the

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Speaker 3: twentieth century and the characteristics of the pop culture ninja

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Speaker 3: and how those don't really match up with much of

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Speaker 3: even the historical legendary version of the ninja. We talked

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Speaker 3: about some individual shanobi warriors from legend and history, including

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Speaker 3: stories of ninja esque sorcerers who could ride on spectral toads,

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Speaker 3: and in the last episode, we talked about some of

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Speaker 3: the fantastic tools and techniques described in popular ninjitsu manuals

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Speaker 3: that were compiled and published beginning in the seventeenth century,

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Speaker 3: including everything from the use of gunpowder and pharmacology to

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Speaker 3: the so called water spider device that wouldn't allow you

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Speaker 3: to do something in water questions remain.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And so we're back here for the final installment,

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Speaker 1: Part four, and as is often the case with our series,

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Speaker 1: part four is kind of and the rest. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to have examples of content that match up with

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Speaker 1: everything we just highlighted from the previous episodes. So like

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Speaker 1: a little bit more of everything we've been talking about,

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Speaker 1: I think getting into some I know some things that

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Speaker 1: were probably you know, pinging in your mind as you

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Speaker 1: listen to the first three, like when are they going

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Speaker 1: to talk about throwing stars?

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Speaker 3: That's right. One of the inanimate objects most closely associated

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Speaker 3: with the ninja in modern movies and storytelling is the

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Speaker 3: shuri can at the throwing star aka the ninja star.

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Speaker 1: This is of course one of the big ninja weapons

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Speaker 1: of pop culture, and one of the things is just

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Speaker 1: instantly attractive about the ninja that you can't help but

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Speaker 1: want to throw a shuri caan at somebody or at

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Speaker 1: the wall. Even when my family when we were in Japan,

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Speaker 1: one of the hotels that we stayed at in Tokyo

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Speaker 1: had a ninja theme, and when your families were checking in,

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Speaker 1: they would give the kids like pretend suri can to

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Speaker 1: throw at a target on the wall.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I was reading about how shuri caan ranges are

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Speaker 3: like a common stop on sort of like ninja tourist offerings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so literally it basically means a blade in

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Speaker 1: the hand. And yeah. These are typically depicted in Japanese

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Speaker 1: ninja media as something you sling out rapid fire, like

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Speaker 1: kind of like you're dealing cards, throwing cards or something,

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Speaker 1: while a lot of Western ninja tails tend to present

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Speaker 1: them as these kind of deadly one shots. I think

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Speaker 1: we've all seen a movie in which a ninja throws

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Speaker 1: a shuri can and it gets somebody right in the

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Speaker 1: forehead and somehow kills them dead.

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Speaker 3: Rob correct me if you have a different impression. But

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Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of ninja movies emphasize a

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Speaker 3: theme with the shuracan that's almost like in fact, you

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Speaker 3: mention another Western movie that borrows from a Japanese origin,

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Speaker 3: in The Magnificent Seven, there's that scene where there's you know,

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Speaker 3: James Coburn brings a knife to a gunfight and he

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Speaker 3: beats the gunfighter by throwing the knife faster than the

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Speaker 3: gunfighter can draw his gun. Of course, that movie is

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Speaker 3: based on seven Samurai originally, but there is I think

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Speaker 3: a similar thing going on with the Shura can and

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Speaker 3: a lot of these movies. It's like the blade, the

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Speaker 3: bladed Star beats technology every time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it helps to have those rapid fire cuts too,

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Speaker 1: because of course, the way you typically do a knife

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Speaker 1: throw or a surer can throw in cinema is you

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Speaker 1: just like cut two or pan over to where the

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Speaker 1: that the fake surrokin or the fake blade is already

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Speaker 1: like stuck in the person, so you know it's lightning fast.

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Speaker 1: It's like bam, there it is. It's like magically appeared

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Speaker 1: in their forehead.

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Speaker 3: Now, I think we mentioned in a previous episode. If not,

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Speaker 3: I'll go ahead and mention now that one thing that

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Speaker 3: is quite surprising is that suri can actually do not

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Speaker 3: feature in any of the classic ninjitsu manuals that we

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Speaker 3: were talking about from beginning in the seventeenth century in

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Speaker 3: the last episode. Though that doesn't mean they did not

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Speaker 3: exist at all. There are some historical artifacts that can

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Speaker 3: sort of fit in this box. It's just the historically

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Speaker 3: until I'll get to this in a minute, until basically

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Speaker 3: the twentieth century, they were not particularly associated with ninja

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Speaker 3: or shanobi.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's interesting to sort of tease to

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Speaker 1: the history of like just the the weapon itself. I

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Speaker 1: was reading about this in Heroko Yoda and Matt Alts

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Speaker 1: Ninja Attack, which again is an excellent little illustrated book

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Speaker 1: that covers all the all these highlights. But they point

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Speaker 1: out that not all of these various designs of the

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Speaker 1: shurican that we we do have would have been thrown.

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Speaker 1: Some of them were simply small handheld blades. And that's

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Speaker 1: interesting too, because when in ninja media, I can't think

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Speaker 1: of an example of anyone doing anything with a shurcan

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Speaker 1: other than throw it. You know, I don't think I've

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Speaker 1: ever seen anybody like whittle with one, or open open

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Speaker 1: a soda pop with one, or anything. You know. They're

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Speaker 1: just for throwing. And apparently of the ones that were thrown,

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Speaker 1: what the more likely scenario here is that they would

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Speaker 1: have been a close range nuisance or distraction weapon, as

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Speaker 1: opposed to that stale the one shot kill.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that very much squares with my understanding. So I

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Speaker 3: was reading about the origins of the association between shurikan

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Speaker 3: and ninja in a book that I've been referencing throughout

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Speaker 3: this series. It's a book called Ninja Unmasking the Myth

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Speaker 3: by a historian named Stephen Turnbull, which goes a lot

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Speaker 3: into the complicated questions the historicity of the ninja tropes

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Speaker 3: that exist today, and so in order to understand the

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Speaker 3: association that emerged between shurikan and ninja, it's apparently important

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Speaker 3: to understand a particular Japanese martial artist and author who

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Speaker 3: lived in the twentieth century named Fuji ta Seiko, who

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Speaker 3: was a practitioner and claimed to be a preserver of

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Speaker 3: the Ninjasu tradition of the Coca region of Japan. Fuji

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Speaker 3: to Seko lived from eighteen ninety eight to nineteen sixty six,

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Speaker 3: and fujits the writings were influential in creating the image

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Speaker 3: of the ninja that emerged in the mid twentieth century

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Speaker 3: after the conclusion of World War Two. I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to completely cover his biography, but I will say that

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Speaker 3: he is a fascinating and somewhat controversial figure worth reading

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Speaker 3: more about, just to hit some of the top lines.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen thirty six, he published a book called Ninjutsu Hiroku,

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Speaker 3: which means something like Secret Notes on Ninjutsu which is

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Speaker 3: allegedly based on the secret Koca traditions that had been

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Speaker 3: passed down to his family through direct instruction without being

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Speaker 3: published for a general audience, and he claimed that he

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Speaker 3: was publishing this information about ninjutsu to help Japan win

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Speaker 3: its war against China. However, actually a lot of the

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Speaker 3: information that he includes in this book does come from

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Speaker 3: other pre existing ninjitsu manuals like the ones we talked

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Speaker 3: about in the last part of this series, like the

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Speaker 3: mans in Chukai or the bens in Chukai. So the

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Speaker 3: Ninjitsu Heroku reframes a lot of information from these previous

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Speaker 3: ninjasu manuals of the Tokugawa period, But apparently it does

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Speaker 3: things like rationalize a lot of magical sounding claims. For example,

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Speaker 3: techniques that originally were presented as ways of transforming magically

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Speaker 3: into a rat are instead presented as making a noise

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Speaker 3: like a rat to confuse and distract guards, Or like

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Speaker 3: the idea that one could potentially turn invisible is rationalized

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Speaker 3: as well. You can walk in a certain way so

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Speaker 3: that you cannot be seen, thus causing the impression that

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Speaker 3: you've become invisible.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: A lot of this book also concerns self glorifying claims

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Speaker 3: of practices of physical endurance and austerity. For example, he

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Speaker 3: claimed that, you know, as part of his practice, he

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Speaker 3: could like break glass bottles over his own head to

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Speaker 3: prove his toughness. He says he can do forty glass

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Speaker 3: bottles in a row.

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Speaker 1: Oh, do not do not attend that, no idea.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to mention a few other things. Don't do

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Speaker 3: any of this, please. This is not a good training regime.

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Speaker 3: Even if you want to be a ninja, he says.

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Speaker 3: The shanobi must be able to withstand torture without giving

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Speaker 3: up information. So he says, I have stabbed myself with

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Speaker 3: hundreds of needles. Here's a picture of me with all

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Speaker 3: the needles in me, and I have eaten roof tiles,

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Speaker 3: glass bricks, and rat poison. Again questionable whether he actually

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Speaker 3: did some of that. I think people did claim that

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Speaker 3: they saw him eating glass. I don't know about the poison,

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Speaker 3: but don't do any of this. He also apparently claimed

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Speaker 3: that he like knew dog language and thus could like

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Speaker 3: communicate with dogs to like call them for help if needed,

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Speaker 3: or make maybe make them fight each other.

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Speaker 1: Well, aside from the making them fight each other Please

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Speaker 1: feel free to experiment with this one. You can talk

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Speaker 1: to dogs.

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Speaker 3: Yes, better than eating poison and glass. Yeah. But one

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Speaker 3: of Fujiita Seko's most enduring contrabbutions to the ninja mythology

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Speaker 3: of today is his attachment of the shuriken in its

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Speaker 3: current form to the ninja legend. So I'm going to

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Speaker 3: try to get into that. Steven Turnbull in his book

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Speaker 3: actually as a whole chapter just on where the shuriican

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Speaker 3: comes from and how it connects to ninjitsu. So there

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Speaker 3: are references to the word shuriken in seventeenth century ninjitsu manuals,

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Speaker 3: but they are apparently referring to completely different objects than

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Speaker 3: we have in mind. We picture the ninja star that's

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Speaker 3: got you know. It's a star shaped, vaguely circular object

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Speaker 3: made of metal that has points all around so you

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Speaker 3: can throw it in the spinning fashion and wherever it

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Speaker 3: hits somebody, it's going to stab into them.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And again we've seen this in movies time

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Speaker 1: and time again. I actually looked back at the James

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Speaker 1: Bond film that we talked about being pivotal in the

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Speaker 1: history of introducing the idea of the ninja to international

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Speaker 1: audience only live twice. And look, I didn't watch the

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Speaker 1: film in full, but I did find some YouTube clips

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Speaker 1: of it official on the James Bond YouTube page. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And there is a scene late in the film where

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Speaker 1: someone I think it's Bond himself throws a shuri can

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Speaker 1: at Blofeld and Blowfelt has a pistol, hits him in

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Speaker 1: the hand, knocks a pistol out of his hand.

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Speaker 3: This is actually a common thing in the movies where

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Speaker 3: the ninja will use it to disarm an opponent who

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Speaker 3: has them at a loss.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess, again, issues of accuracy and power aside.

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Speaker 1: You know, I guess that's more realistic than the instant kill.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm going to get to the likely use of

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Speaker 3: it in a second, to the extent it's even being

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Speaker 3: recommended to a ninja. But so, okay, what is this

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Speaker 3: If the shuracan referenced in the seventeenth century in ninjuitsu

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Speaker 3: manuals is not what we have in mind, what is it? Well?

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Speaker 3: One of the earliest references, according to Turnbull, is in

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Speaker 3: a is in a text called the gun Po Geoshu

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Speaker 3: of sixteen fifty three, and in this case, the shurcan

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Speaker 3: is said to be quote a torch made from split

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Speaker 3: wood and fitted into a metal base with a spike.

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Speaker 3: So that's interesting a torch. But the idea here is

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Speaker 3: you're a sentry up on a castle wall, and you

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Speaker 3: know it's nighttime, surrounded by darkness, and you need to

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Speaker 3: see what's happening down on the ground below at the

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Speaker 3: base of the castle wall, so you throw down this shuriken.

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Speaker 3: This object is a sort of combination torch lawn dart,

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Speaker 3: and the metal spike sticks into the soil and the

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Speaker 3: torch illuminates the ground around the base of the wall.

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Speaker 1: All right, seems reasonable, seems practical.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a totally logical sounding tool. And it's interesting

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Speaker 3: because again, this sort of crosses that boundary that keeps

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Speaker 3: getting blurred in the history of ninja lore between weapons

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Speaker 3: intended for direct violence and things that are just tools

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Speaker 3: used to gather information. However, when it comes to direct references,

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Speaker 3: there is another early reference to shuricken that is also dissimilar,

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Speaker 3: dissimilar to what's the word there, disimilar to or dissimilar from.

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Speaker 3: It's not the same as a ninja star. This is

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Speaker 3: the bow churicken mentioned in some seventeenth century texts, which

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Speaker 3: is a bar or rod shaped object that could be

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Speaker 3: thrown by hand. So essentially this is just a large

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Speaker 3: steel dart.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, these these are really neat, and of course when

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Speaker 1: you start looking up weapons of the sort ninja weapons seeing,

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Speaker 1: you find there's a lot of drift. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of like modernization and whether the weapon actually existed historically

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Speaker 1: or not somebody has made it now you can you

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Speaker 1: know again, buy it at the mall or something. But

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Speaker 1: these are pretty cool, and these are one of I

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Speaker 1: feel like just to dip back into Dungeons and Dragons

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Speaker 1: for a second. Anytime darts are are are mentioned, or

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Speaker 1: darts come up as a possible weapon in Dungeons and Dragons,

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Speaker 1: I feel like most people's mind, you know, given the

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Speaker 1: often sort of like Western eye fantasy setting of Dungeons

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Speaker 1: and Dragons, you often think of like a dart from

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Speaker 1: a pool hall, right, Yeah, dart board just small, you know,

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Speaker 1: basically a harmless weapon. And I would always want to

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Speaker 1: advise me, no, look up some bow shurikean and imagine

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Speaker 1: that for your character instead. It's still not going to

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Speaker 1: do a lot of damage in the game, but it

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Speaker 1: looks cooler.

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Speaker 3: Yes, But coming back to the idea of not necessarily

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Speaker 3: needing to do a lot of damage. That actually connects

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Speaker 3: to where we get the first references too star shaped

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Speaker 3: churicken in an actual ninjitsu text, and that's in the

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Speaker 3: twentieth century. So here we're coming back to Fujita seiko

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Speaker 3: in Ninjitsu Heroku again, this is from the year nineteen

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Speaker 3: thirty six. He has a passage about shurikeen in his text,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm gonna hear read from Turnbull's featured translation.

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Speaker 3: So the author here writes, if you have to defend

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Speaker 3: yourself against a sudden attack by an enemy, puts some

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Speaker 3: distance between you to ensure your safety. In this case,

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Speaker 3: use the small weapon called a toby dogu, which means

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Speaker 3: throwing weapon, known to the author as shuriken. Samurai normally

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Speaker 3: despised these and other throwing weapons, but they are most

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Speaker 3: effective if used skillfully. The shuri caan can do great

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Speaker 3: damage if it hits someone's eye, So even in this

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Speaker 3: take from the nineteen thirties, the shuri caan is not

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Speaker 3: a primary weapon, but the idea seems to me to

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Speaker 3: be more like throwing sand in somebody's eyes. It's like

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Speaker 3: a trick you can use to buy time or advantage

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Speaker 3: if you're caught off guard or being chased.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in this scenario, especially keeping the samurai from

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Speaker 1: closing the distance between themselves and you, because that's life

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Speaker 1: and death at that point. If you can if you

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Speaker 1: can just keep the distance between yourself and the samurai,

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Speaker 1: then maybe you've got a chance to get away.

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Speaker 3: Right, It's the idea is throwing something to keep the

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Speaker 3: samurai out of sword range.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this reminds me a little bit. We did, you know,

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Speaker 1: a past episode of Stuff to Blow your mind. We

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Speaker 1: did a series talking about like throwing animals, throwing things,

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Speaker 1: and then we got for one episode into an overview

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Speaker 1: of like human history with thrown weapon objects, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they ranged from from well, I would say they range

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Speaker 1: from rocks to more complex weapons. But I remember, even

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Speaker 1: in talking about throwing rocks and stones as weapons, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot more to it. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of selection involved in picking up the exact correct object.

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Speaker 1: And this is a case where we get to that

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Speaker 1: next level of Okay, what have we crafted the items

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Speaker 1: that we wish to throw so that they could be

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Speaker 1: used more.

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Speaker 3: Optimally describing what devices to throw for this purpose. Fujiita advises,

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Speaker 3: for one thing, improvised hand thrown weapons such as knives

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Speaker 3: or hairpins, so it's like, if you know, throw whatever

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Speaker 3: you can get your hands on, but if you're going

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Speaker 3: to have a dedicated weapon to throw. He also illustrates

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Speaker 3: dedicated shurriken designs, and one of the illustrations is a

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Speaker 3: classic bo shurikan, a large steel dart. But he also

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Speaker 3: includes pointed metal stars, and so here we get our

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Speaker 3: first illustration of throwing stars in a ninjutsu text. So

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Speaker 3: one of the things he illustrates is cross shaped it

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Speaker 3: has four points, and another one is shown with eight points.

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Speaker 3: This is in nineteen thirty six, the first ninja text

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Speaker 3: showing the star shaped shurican. However, it's clear that Fujiita

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Speaker 3: Seko did not invent this device from his imagination, because

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Speaker 3: even though earlier ninjitsu texts don't include them, we do

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Speaker 3: have evidence from earlier periods of vaguely star shaped blades

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Speaker 3: or cross shaped blades that did exist and could possibly

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Speaker 3: be thrown. So instead of looking for them in the

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Speaker 3: nunjitsu manuals, you can find them in the jiu jitsu

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Speaker 3: arsenals of the Tokugawa period, particularly associated with a martial

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Speaker 3: arts tradition called the Sego Reu. One of the documents

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Speaker 3: allegedly associated with this school of martial arts includes an

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Speaker 3: illustration of a weapon that is quite similar that is

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Speaker 3: described like two knife blades fastened in the middle with

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Speaker 3: a hinge. So the way I'm picturing this finder stand

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Speaker 3: it right, is it's like a pair of scissors, but

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Speaker 3: instead of one side of each blade being handles, it's

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Speaker 3: just blades on every point. Now, for several reasons, Turnbull

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Speaker 3: thinks that Fuji ta Seiko was probably not familiar with

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Speaker 3: this exact document that I just mentioned, and probably was

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Speaker 3: getting his knowledge of the star shaped throwing weapon just

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Speaker 3: from seeing these artifacts around. And there is other evidence

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Speaker 3: from history of people like having versions of these artifacts

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Speaker 3: even going back to the Tokugawa period. But they just traditionally,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't seem like they were super common, and they

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Speaker 3: weren't particular. They weren't associated as far as anybody knows,

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Speaker 3: with nujitsu until the twentieth century, and now that's all

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Speaker 3: they're associated with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we probably have to sort of try

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Speaker 1: and imagine that most likely more historically accurate vision of

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Speaker 1: Shanobi operatives as being you know, plain clothes espionage operatives

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Speaker 1: who you know, if you're going to carry items on you, like,

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Speaker 1: are you going to really commit to having these some

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Speaker 1: sort of a throwing star, sure, a can on your person,

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Speaker 1: something that again is I think going to be at

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Speaker 1: least in the modern understanding of it, is going to

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Speaker 1: be more obviously a weapon and therefore subject to you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean being judged in the illegal weapon or also

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Speaker 1: just being suspect in nature that you have it as

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Speaker 1: a and again, think about when you would supposedly use it,

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Speaker 1: like when the samurai are coming after you, or when

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Speaker 1: guards are coming after you, like really in the worst

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Speaker 1: case scenarios, and that might be a better place to

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Speaker 1: maybe depend on just throwing say, you know, found objects

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Speaker 1: like a bottle or some other item in your immediate vicinity,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to having some specialty device on your person instead.

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Speaker 3: There's one detail from Turnbull's chapter that is so interesting

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Speaker 3: I had to bring it up. It's about the design

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Speaker 3: that many people have probably seen of these basically swastika

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Speaker 3: shaped a throwing star that occurs in a lot of media.

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Speaker 3: This is a very familiar design for movies and stuff,

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Speaker 3: and apparently a lot of modern ninja books have featured

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Speaker 3: this design as if it were a traditional shuriken design,

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Speaker 3: but it is not, and in fact, there is an

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Speaker 3: anecdote from this chapter about how an actor who worked

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Speaker 3: on a nineteen sixties TV series in Japan called on Mitsukinschi,

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Speaker 3: which had a throwing star of this design, described that

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Speaker 3: really this design was created for the show because pause

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Speaker 3: these straight pointed throwing stars were deemed too dangerous on set,

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Speaker 3: so this was essentially a safety innovation that was later

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Speaker 3: misinterpreted as a real design of throwing stars as weapons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's crazy, like basically a safety shit shuriken.

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Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, I have another example of shurrokan inspired

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Speaker 1: fictional weaponry, and this one I thought was interesting because

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Speaker 1: it kind of stands, at least to my eyes, as

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Speaker 1: kind of like the ultimate in sci fi and fantasy

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Speaker 1: transformation of the ninja myth. So in the Warhammer forty

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Speaker 1: thousand universe, like a far future, you know, grim Dark scenario,

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Speaker 1: you have these. You have this species known as the

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Speaker 1: l Dar, and they're kind of like a sci fi

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Speaker 1: take on the elves. I mean, that's exactly what they are.

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Speaker 1: And they use pistols and rifles that use shurrocans as ammunition.

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Speaker 1: So these are said to be molecular, cutting edge weapons

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Speaker 1: fired in bursts from these guns and like they're so

390
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Speaker 1: sharp and they hit so it was with such velocity

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Speaker 1: that they just shred whatever they hit, be it a

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Speaker 1: mechanical foe or an organic foe. And again pretty far

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Speaker 1: removed from anything even remotely realistic we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: but again I thought it was interesting. It's kind of

395
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Speaker 1: like the extreme transformation of the shuriken in sci fi

396
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Speaker 1: and fantasy. I also, I didn't remember this at all

397
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Speaker 1: because I don't have a lot of memories regarding two

398
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Speaker 1: thousand and four as Alien versus Predator, But you might

399
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Speaker 1: remember that in other Predator movies he has this disc

400
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Speaker 1: that he throws that cuts people in half. And in

401
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: this film they decided they were like, that looks too

402
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Speaker 1: much like a frisbee. Let's give the predator a shuriken.

403
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Speaker 1: And so he has this thing that it was least

404
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: at least described as a shura can. I included an

405
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Speaker 1: image here for you, Joe. It's it's really way too large.

406
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Speaker 1: It reminds me more of the weaponing Kroll, the what

407
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Speaker 1: is it boss?

408
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 3: The glave Yeah, which also is a word that means

409
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 3: something else elsewhere. But yeah, that's very confusing. It looks

410
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 3: almost exactly like the krawl thing. It's like kind of

411
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Speaker 3: almost like starfish shaped in a way, with these wispy

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Speaker 3: curving blades coming out. It looks too delicate, you know,

413
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Speaker 3: it looks like they would break off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So I don't know. I don't remember what

415
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Speaker 1: this thing did in action. I guess it just cut

416
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Speaker 1: through stuff. But anyway, I wanted to.

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Speaker 3: Mention that based on my memory, probably doesn't do much

418
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Speaker 3: because I remember the Predator is just getting like beat

419
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Speaker 3: up in that movie. The movie is very like oh

420
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Speaker 3: yeah singles, you know, more full takedown and Predator. It's

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Speaker 3: kind of surprising.

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Speaker 1: Uh, well, I think it should. I think it should.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, it's a fair hunt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I like to say I don't

425
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Speaker 1: remember that film all that well, but I did see it.

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Speaker 1: I might have seen in the theater. All right. Well, anyway,

427
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Speaker 1: coming back to the Shanobi, the pop culture Ninja and

428
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: the shur Can again, it's like you got to if

429
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Speaker 1: you try and think you know, realistically about any scenario

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Speaker 1: in which you have to bring a certain amount of tools,

431
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: you have your sort of desert island list of tools

432
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 1: to bring. Would throwing stars make the list? Again, items

433
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 1: that might only be used when you were about to

434
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: kill a samurai, and your main defense is like, what

435
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: have I made them angry? So I think there's reason

436
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: to doubt that. And it's interesting too when you look

437
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: at some of these ninjitsu manuals, again with proper caveats

438
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: about where they factor into the transformation from historical accuracy

439
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: into myth and fiction. There are sometimes lists of tools,

440
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: and in fact, there's a sixteen eighty one text Sho Ninki,

441
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: a Record of proper Nanjotsu, that includes six tools that

442
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: apparently every ninja had to have, and throwing stars did

443
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: not make the list. Instead, you have and I think

444
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: this is actually kind of a telling list, Like this

445
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: is a list that I mean, it certainly can apply

446
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: to any pop cultural view of vision of the ninja

447
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: that you have, but it also makes a lot of

448
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: sense if you're just imagining some sort of espionage operative

449
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: that's maybe doing like some extra sneaky stuff, Because the

450
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: list includes first of all kagi nawa a grappling hook

451
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: and rope, All right, makes sense. You need to get

452
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: over a wall. Grappling hook and some rope is a

453
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: way to do it. Then you've got this one. This one.

454
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: I was surprised by kasa a conical straw hat, like

455
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: a wide brimmed straw hat. This would have been widely

456
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: used by plenty of people who are not involved in

457
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: shanobi operations. But that's part of a part of it, right,

458
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: It's like not conspicuous, and you could apparently hide tools,

459
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: like it's large enough, you could, you know, maybe secret

460
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: some items up there under the brim.

461
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 3: It makes sense to me.

462
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then here's a good one. Chalk in order

463
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: to leave irasable secret messages for other operatives.

464
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 3: Ah. Yeah, that's interesting because when you think about some

465
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 3: of these other Ninjasu manuals we were talking about, like

466
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 3: the Men's in Chucai, places a big emphasis on the

467
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: the operative must survive in order to deliver information. So

468
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: it's like propagandizing the reader against the idea of you know,

469
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 3: going out to die in honorable death while doing the mission.

470
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: It's like, no, you must live in order to deliver

471
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 3: the information. But if you can deliver information in some

472
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 3: other way, like by writing a message somewhere, you know,

473
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 3: down somewhere for someone else to read, then I guess

474
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 3: that takes some of the pressure off.

475
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so it makes sense. And also, like chalk

476
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: generally not considered sus if you're caught with chalk, it's

477
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: not You're not going to be instantly sent to your execution.

478
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: I'm assumed, all right. Some of the others a tinder box,

479
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: you know, just for a little fire, a towel, bring

480
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: a towel with you, you know, it's there are a

481
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: lot of uses for the towel is very versatile. And

482
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: then there's also this category kusuri, and this would have

483
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: been various chemical compounds for different purposes. And this would

484
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: include things like poison but also basically like first aid

485
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: as well as bug repellent. So I feel like this

486
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: is a pretty solid list because, if nothing else, it

487
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: speaks to some of the practical aspects of imagine shanobi activities.

488
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: You might need some bugspray, you might need to bring

489
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: a light, you might need to bring a towel.

490
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, towel's just always a good idea.

491
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, In the book Ninja Attack, Yoda and All highlight

492
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: some other alleged Ninja weapons, and they're kind of a

493
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: mix of things that maybe feel a little more fantasy

494
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: based and others that just sound very standard. Like one

495
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: is a kunai, a standard field knife. I think we

496
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: mentioned this in passing in the last one when we're

497
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: talking about the the idea that ninja's had a specialized

498
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: ninja would have a specialized sword, and we brought up that, well,

499
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: why would you have this illegal weapon on you that

500
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: takes up a fair amount of room that also might

501
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: not serve your mission all that well, when you could

502
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: just bring like a standard field knife, something that would

503
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: not necessarily be considered a straight up weapon and would

504
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: have various practical uses. There's another one, goshiki may, which

505
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: would have been it's supposed to have been dyed rice

506
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: grains that you could leave, you could leave behind you

507
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: as as a codd trail. Again, I'm not so sure

508
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: about that when that one sounds a little more exciting,

509
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: like maybe a little too exciting to be an actual,

510
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, artifact of spycraft. Now, Gandhal a bucket based

511
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: focused lantern that does sound useful for sneaking around, you know,

512
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: basically like a you know something, so you're not lighting

513
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: up in the whole room, you're not lighting yourself up,

514
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: but you can have a very focused light for sneaking around,

515
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: maybe looking at document.

516
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 3: It's oh, I see sort of a beam light. Yeah.

517
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 1: Another one is a michi hakari. This would have been

518
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: like a measuring stick. Again. You know, sometimes espionage is boring.

519
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: It's just about how how bigger things, So you might

520
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: need to measure things when you when you're when you're

521
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: out and about.

522
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: Uh, this is not boring at all. This is a

523
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 3: major part of espionage activities in these old warfare manuals.

524
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 3: It's about like giving giving dimensions and topography. It's like,

525
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: go somewhere and tell me what it's like. Make a map.

526
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, they mentioned shakomi and this would have been like

527
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: various concealed weapons, including cane swords, blow guns, that sort

528
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: of thing. Again. Uh, certainly this would make sense, especially

529
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: if you're engaging in some sort of potential assassination scenario.

530
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: But it also of course leans I think heavily into

531
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: the myth of espionage. I mean, who doesn't love a

532
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: good secret weapon. Some sort of a James Bond device right.

533
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: Then there's a shikoro. This would have been like a

534
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: serrated hand tool for sawing, again like a basic tool

535
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: that might come in handy for certain practices. And then

536
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: there's a casou gai. This would have been These would

537
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: have been climbing aids, like specialized like iron climbing aids

538
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: for foot and hand holds. It could be inserted into

539
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: the cracks of a wall that the examples that are

540
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: included in the book are pretty neat looking. I'm not

541
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: sure how historically accurate this would be, again, because we

542
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: talked about the importance of a ladder, and certainly, you know,

543
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: we talked about you know, grappling hooks, So I don't know,

544
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is if this is something

545
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: that would have been regularly done, because the ladder is

546
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: also included in the in the book. Here, there's also

547
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: uh subo kiri, like a handheld drilling tool from like

548
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: making a like holes in a wall for like a

549
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: peep pole. Yeah, peep pole, So this sounds reasonable. They

550
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: mentioned they mentioned the fabulous floating shoes that we talked

551
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: about last time, but they also mentioned something called mizugaki,

552
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: which would have been would have been apparently a type

553
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: of footwear that was useful in muddy areas. Okay, yeah,

554
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: and I guess this is reasonable, right, if you're like

555
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: potentially sneaking out of of of a building or an area,

556
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: or dealing in any fashion with a moat, it might

557
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: make sense to have specialized footwear.

558
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 3: Well, right, as we talked about it in the last episode,

559
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: the idea of the mizugumo, the water walking shoes, the

560
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 3: water spider shoes almost certainly would not work as generally

561
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: interpreted in twentieth century sources, where like they allow you

562
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: to walk across the top of the water. So if

563
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: such a device were actually used, it was probably more

564
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 3: like an inner tube type thing that you would sit

565
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: in and float across the water in.

566
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, kind of like a makeshift raft, which was

567
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: is Actually there's another item like this included in the book,

568
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: the kami Gatta, which would apparently have been and I

569
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: don't have a clear vision of what this would look like,

570
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: but a makeshift raft using a bamboo frame in empty

571
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: clay jars. So you know, perhaps a scenario where it's like, Okay,

572
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: I got to I got to build a boat tonight

573
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: in order to make it across this river or this

574
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: moat or what have you. What could you use to

575
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: make it? How you could you mcguiver up a boat.

576
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: That's good knowledge to have.

577
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: Now, there are various other ninja weapons that we could

578
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: potentially talk about. I think the common thread, though, is

579
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: going to be how realistic is this and how much

580
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: historical evidence is there for this? And how cool does

581
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: it look? You know, like you see things like Techo

582
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: Kagi and Nko te These would have been two different

583
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: versions of like giving your ninja's claws, so the former

584
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: being like a wolverine claw that you wear as a gauntlet.

585
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: I guess also you could this is like basically what

586
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: Shreder has in teenage mutant ninja turtles. And then the

587
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: neck o t would would have been something that goes

588
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: over your fingertips. And these would have been like poisoned

589
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: or some sort of a nuisance weapon for like scratching somebody.

590
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 3: Over the fingertips. Yikes.

591
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so like you with the.

592
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 3: Open hand swinging at the Yeah.

593
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: Well, you're not as big as Freddy Krueger or anything.

594
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: I think I did an artifact episode a while back

595
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: talking about like some of the physics of strapping blades

596
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: to your fingers, Like that's Freddy Krueger glove would be

597
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: a great way to break all your fingers. You can

598
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: actually use that as a weapon, and you are not

599
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: a supernatural entity of some sort. Yes, but if it's

600
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: wrist mounted, okay, you know potentially that could work. But

601
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: then again you get into that question why would it

602
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: work more than a standard weapon? Why would it be

603
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: a better choice compared to a knife or a sword

604
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: or what have you.

605
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: As with a lot of these things we're describing, you

606
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: can see how they might have more appeal as a

607
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: meme than actual functional utility, Like they could be successful

608
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 3: in texts like these because they're interesting ideas.

609
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Another thing that comes up is like, which cases

610
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,760
Speaker 1: do we see some sort of an alleged ninja weapon

611
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: that might have its roots in sort of a repurposing

612
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: of other items, Like for instance, there are various forms

613
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: of teko or techo, and these would have been I've

614
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: seen it seen it written that these would have been

615
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: like a basically a weaponized iron stirrup that is turned

616
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: into something kind of like brass knuckles, you know, And

617
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: I think like brass knuckles are a great example of

618
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: something where you can see various knucks and other weapons

619
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: that can be very specialized and ornate, but various other

620
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: things could also work, you know, like a roll of

621
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: quarters or you know, some other just like a simple

622
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: band of iron that goes around your knuckles, that sort

623
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: of thing. And so there's a long list of alleged

624
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: ninja weapons. They include miniaturized firearms, sharpened hair ornaments, and chopsticks,

625
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: particularly for female shanobi. And you know, I think part

626
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: of that is just like the idea of like, oh,

627
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: these the hair ornaments look very sharp, they look like

628
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: they could be a weapon. What if they were a weapon?

629
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: And therefore the myth building takes place. There are at

630
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: least a couple of chain based weapons, the manriki gusari.

631
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: This is like a length of chain with a weight

632
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: on either end, and I think the basic idea here

633
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: is like, the samurai are coming to kill you, what again,

634
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: what can you throw at them to potentially buy yourself

635
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: a little time and or wrap around their weapons. There's

636
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 1: also one the kusari gama, which would have been much

637
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: the same idea, but with a blade or sickle on

638
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: one end of the chain. This would ideal. It yeah,

639
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: be a situation where someone's coming at you with a weapon,

640
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 1: maybe you could use the chain to like wrap up

641
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: their weapon and so forth. So again, all the standard

642
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: caveats apply to considering the historical accuracy of these weapon descriptions.

643
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: But I think we if we scrape the ninja mystique

644
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: off of each of them, while still acknowledging the use

645
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: of some form of martial art, we're dealing with sneaky

646
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 1: weapons that have as much, if not more in common

647
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: with typical criminal implements like small knives, small clubs, concealable firearms,

648
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: maybe even concealed swords and cane swords and all you know,

649
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: hidden blades, hidden flails and so forth. But again, I

650
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: think you end up having pasked that question like would

651
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: this actually be practical? Can you see somebody using this

652
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 1: in a very serious life and death, you know, very

653
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: risky scenario where the goal might not be some sort

654
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: of like crazy cinematic ninja scenario, but something more like

655
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: getting the measurements of a guard house, or you know,

656
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: looking at some documents, overhearing something that you're not supposed

657
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: to hear, and so forth. Now, there are various techniques

658
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: that ninja techniques that are brought up in the book

659
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: by Yoda and Alt and one that I was particularly

660
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 1: amused by is the idea that you could as a ninja,

661
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: as a shanobi operative out in the field, you need

662
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: to tell what time it is without any other information

663
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: to go on. You could look into a cat size

664
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: and therefore tell what time it is.

665
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, now is this telling time in the nighttime

666
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 3: or in the daytime.

667
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions about how practical this

668
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: would be. I think this is definitely one of those

669
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: ideas that sounds more intriguing than it actually you know,

670
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: and then than it is useful. I think maybe it

671
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: has something to do with the idea quite understandably that

672
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: we feel a kinship between the ninja and the cat.

673
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: We like the idea too of a ninja stopping and maybe,

674
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: you know, talking with the cat like your the household

675
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 1: cat doesn't care he or she is ready to sell

676
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: you out to the shnovii at a moment's notice. They're

677
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 1: happy to conspire.

678
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 3: Cast speak with animals.

679
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, But the basic idea is that, okay, the

680
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: shape of the pupil in the cat's eye is going

681
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 1: to change throughout the day, and you could potentially match

682
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: it up with specific times. The trick, the challenge that

683
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: Yoda and All point out is that, of course you

684
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: would have to be able to get close enough to

685
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: the cat to do this, presumably a stranger's cat to

686
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: make this reading, which is betting a lot on random

687
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: cat personalities, because there are cats that I've seen plenty

688
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: of times and I've never gotten close enough to look

689
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: at their pupils. But then you'll just encounter like a

690
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: cat out on a walk, and the cat will come

691
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: straight up and is like ready to share that information

692
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: with you.

693
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 3: This is why you rub your face with sardines, you

694
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 3: get the cat in there.

695
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: So I looked into this a little bit more. I

696
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: couldn't find much concrete and about this, because, of course,

697
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: the other question is like, what kind of specific scenario

698
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: is this where there is no other information to go

699
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: on other than a cat's eide. You know, I feel

700
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: like you'd have a there would be better ways to

701
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: reasonably estimate what time it.

702
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: Is, and hey, you know, it's not impossible that someone

703
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: could find clever ways of getting surprisingly accurate information from

704
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 3: the natural world. I often think back to that series

705
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 3: of episodes we did about Pacific islander navigation techniques that

706
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 3: you know, without any kind of electronics or modern equipment,

707
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 3: people were able to figure out incredibly accurate ways of navigating.

708
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: And so maybe there's stuff like this in the eyes

709
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 3: of animals or in plants that can tell you exactly

710
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 3: what time it is. Is it true?

711
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've looked up an article. I found this article

712
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: on the website of the National Wildlife Federation by one

713
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: Donna Johnson, who, by the way, alludes to this being

714
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: a New England tradition. So I don't know where it originates.

715
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 1: Maybe it originates in multiple culture anytime you're close enough

716
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: to a cat to look at their eyes. But she

717
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: does do a breakdown of the idea, like, basically, cats

718
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: have elliptically shaped pupils to compensate for their light sensitivity,

719
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: which otherwise aids them in low light hunts. But the

720
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: greater the amount of light, the more slit like the pupil.

721
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: So it technically works, but it also seems again like

722
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: maybe not the most reliable time telling technique. And I

723
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: can't imagine a situation where the cat's eyes would be

724
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: the only thing to go off of, so many questions

725
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: would emerge here, but it's a neat idea. I guess, well.

726
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 3: I mean, if the cats eyes are responding to the

727
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 3: level of light, would the ninja not also be able

728
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 3: to see the level of light exactly?

729
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: All right? The final thing I want to hit on

730
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: here in this series is the idea of the ninja

731
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: as hero, because when it comes to pop cultural transformations,

732
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: I think it's always interesting to look at the point

733
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: where something completely flips from what it originally was. For instance,

734
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: in past episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we

735
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: discussed how various fear some monsters, especially in Japanese culture,

736
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: but we also looked at some examples from Western horror movies,

737
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: eventually make the transformation from like a symbol symbolized like

738
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: aspect of reality, you know, some sort of you know,

739
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: dark aspect of reality that is embodied in some sort

740
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: of a being and imagine being, you know, a fearsome entity.

741
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 3: Uh.

742
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 1: The point at which we take that and flip it

743
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: into something cute, something that would you know, make for

744
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: a nice mascot, look at it on a bumper sticker,

745
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 1: or even be a stuffed animal. I think there's something

746
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 1: telling about reaching that point when the monster becomes cute

747
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: or in this case, when the ninja becomes a hero.

748
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 3: When we've talked about this with regard to monsters, I

749
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 3: remember one of my thoughts about it was that this

750
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 3: impulse is driven by franchising concerns, Like the further you

751
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 3: get into sequels and the more like movies or stories

752
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 3: you've had exposing you to this monster over and over,

753
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 3: the less comfortable it is for the monster to continue

754
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: to be purely fearsome or evil, and there's an impulse

755
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 3: to make it more friendly or at least maybe funnier

756
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 3: or something. So you can see this in you know,

757
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 3: like Godzilla originally is not nice and is not fun,

758
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 3: but eventually it becomes Godzilla becomes the defender essentially against

759
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 3: these worst monsters. You know, the new monster is the

760
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 3: worst one and Godzilla is the one we're familiar with

761
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 3: fighting it off. And you can see over time that

762
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 3: Freddy Krueger goes from being just like a gross, disgusting

763
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 3: murderer into becoming like a jokester who's more just kind

764
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: of like mugging for the camera and yuck, yucks.

765
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, he becomes a violent clown.

766
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so forth. I think it's a really common pattern.

767
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 3: It's something about like familiarity takes the edge off of

768
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 3: something and makes you want to recast it as a

769
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: friend rather than a foe.

770
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: And so with the Ninja, you know, we've discussed at

771
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: length than nebulous reality and origins of the shnobi, and

772
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: how we're mostly talking about shadowy espa espionage operatives made

773
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: up of commoners and even criminals that engage in dirty,

774
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 1: if not outright shameful acts that are necessary, a necessary

775
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: part of warfare, alongside the more celebrated noble and aristocratic

776
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: exploits of rulers in the Samurai. But then coming out

777
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: of the Warring States period and into the Edo period

778
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: and beyond, we see the myth making. We see the

779
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: fiction transforming the myth of the ninja in numerous ways,

780
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: giving it the form everyone instantly recognizes today. And so

781
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: many Ninja remain villains in these later treatments, but they

782
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: inevitably cross over into anti hero and even hero territory.

783
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: And this kind of takes me back to our initial

784
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: discussion talking about our initial introductions to ninja growing up,

785
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: and I look back and I think some of my

786
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: initial introductions to ninja actually cast them as heroes, like

787
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: that nineteen eighty one canon film Entered the Ninja has

788
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: been built around Franco Niro, an Italian actor, as at

789
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: least an anti hero. I don't think he's maybe quite

790
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: a hero in that, but he's at least an anti hero.

791
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 3: I feel like the majority of the ninja media I

792
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 3: consumed when I was a kid had ninjas as heroes

793
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 3: rather than villains, or had them as both.

794
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's not very common as well, going

795
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: back to like g I Joe, like Snake Eyes is

796
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: a black clad ninja and is very much on the

797
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 1: certified good guy team. There's no it's it's black and white.

798
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: Literally though it's flipped because our black clad ninja is

799
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 1: good and our white clad ninja is bad.

800
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 3: Yeah or yeah, so often they were both, but I

801
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 3: think there's an impulse there that it's just like, well,

802
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 3: especially in kid focus to media, ninja's are cool, and

803
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: kids want to root for the good guys, and they

804
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: want they want the good guys to be cool, So

805
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 3: you got to make the ninja a good guy.

806
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I mean, the teenage meeting ninja turtles. Obviously

807
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: they're turtles they're teenagers, but they are ninjas. They're very

808
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: much the good guys. But then, going back to the

809
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: Bond film You Only Live Twice again vitally important in

810
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: bringing the Ninja into the international market and into Western cinema.

811
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: All the Ninja in that all the Shnobi operatives were

812
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: working on James Bod's Bond's team. They were all good

813
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: guys essentially.

814
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, I think so there might be some

815
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: working for the bad guys, but I don't recall specifically.

816
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 3: The ones I remember are good guys.

817
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like the big scene at the end where

818
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 1: they storm the Specter compound and Bond lets the Ninjas in.

819
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: He's like he opens the door and here come the

820
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: Ninjas down on like wires and all.

821
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

822
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: So, anyway, like getting down to discussion like when when

823
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: are ninjas allowed to become not just anti heroes but

824
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: outright good guys. Well, according to Yoda and all discussion

825
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: in Ninja Ninja Attack, there's a definite place to single

826
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: out perhaps is the first true ninja heroes in popular culture,

827
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: and it's the Chikawa pocket books. This would have been

828
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: the period around nineteen twelve through nineteen twenty six series

829
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: of books written by a group of writers that were

830
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: credited as Seka Sanjan a series of novels for juvenile

831
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: so like essentially like young reader or children's books that

832
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: detailed the adventures of a pair of rival ninja that

833
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 1: they were on the same team. To be clear, they're

834
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: not like rival teams or rival clans, but they have

835
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: differing personalities. They're kind of an odd couple, and that's

836
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: Saratobi Saske and Kira Gakura Saizo. And these books established

837
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: these two as quote poster boys for the ego koga

838
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: rivalry and ninja as a potential force for good. And

839
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: it was inspired by These tales were inspired by both

840
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: real life at least attributed ninja exploits, as well as

841
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: the Chinese literary classic Journey into the West. How is

842
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 1: it related to the Journey into the West. A lot

843
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: of it comes down to the character of Saratobi Saske,

844
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: a young boy raised by monkeys and then taken in

845
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: by a ninja master and then recruited by the warlords

846
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: Sonata due to his mischievous nature and his great skill

847
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: and of course the ninja arts, so he ends up

848
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: going on missions for his master but he's also, you know,

849
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 1: a bit of a trickster, a bit happy go lucky,

850
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: and he does a lot of side quests to help

851
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: the less fortunate. But the name here Saratobi means leaping monkey,

852
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: and he is in some ways a Japanese ninja version

853
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: of the Monkey King.

854
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 3: It's interesting that you mentioned him doing sort of side

855
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,479
Speaker 3: quests to help the less fortunate, because I have seen

856
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 3: that it is I have read at least that it

857
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 3: is common in literature that portrays the ninja as heroes

858
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: or good guys to include some kind of class element

859
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 3: where they are sort of they act on behalf of

860
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 3: the economic underclass of like the of the poor and

861
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 3: the less fortunate, and help them in the face of say,

862
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 3: like rich oppressors, like an evil samurai.

863
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and a lot of the I think we

864
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 1: touched on some of these older tales that are either

865
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,240
Speaker 1: ninja or ninja adjacent that are essentially robin hood stories,

866
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: like some sort of person from the criminal element, you know,

867
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: and from the lower classes that is sticking up for

868
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: the little guy. Now, the other of these two the rival.

869
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: So we have the happy go lucky guy, the more

870
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: like the sort of the more pure hero here. But

871
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: then we have Kira Gakua Saizo, who is born into

872
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: the ninja life. It has said he's trained with the best,

873
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: and he has become a master of clouds and lightning,

874
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: of mists and thunder, so you know, he can summon

875
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: various weather effects to mask his ninja movements. And the

876
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: name here means cloaked and missed. So while Saske is lighthearted,

877
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: Sizo is brooding, like this is more of your your

878
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: kind of like goth superstar character here. Nice they wind

879
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: up on the same ninja team. This would be Sonata

880
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: as Ten Heroes or the Ten Braves, but their rivals.

881
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: They're an odd couple to say the least. And Yoda

882
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: and all point out that, yeah, the nature of these

883
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 1: two characters kind of flows perfectly into modern times. So

884
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: Saske was always a hit with the kids, but then

885
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: Sizo was irresistible to you know, many in the post

886
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: war period, especially as like you know, older ninja fans

887
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: and adults told and retold stories. He's like a natural

888
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 1: character to latch onto. He's got this kind of angst

889
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: sort of in bridging the gap between anti hero and hero,

890
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, So it fits that mold of the brooding

891
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: sort of Batman esque hero. I guess I included an

892
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: image here, Joe. This is from one of the many

893
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: more modern treatments from anime and manga. And you can

894
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: guess which one is which you know, which one is

895
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: your brooding character and which one is your more happy,

896
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: go lucky character.

897
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 3: Oh, Sizo even has like emo hair.

898
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yes, like again, just a natural fit, you know,

899
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: for for like kind of an angsty emo character. And

900
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: then we have the Trickster, the essentially the monkey King

901
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: in ninja form. Of course they're not going to completely

902
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: get along, but they are going to ultimately work, you know,

903
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: for the same cause.

904
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 3: That's sweet.

905
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, I thought that was interesting, this idea

906
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: of like, okay, these might be the patient zeros for

907
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: good guy ninjas in popular culture, and these are characters

908
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: that get used again and again. Now I think Sizo

909
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: has also been used as an antagonist in some modern treatment.

910
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: So it kind of comes back to what we were

911
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: saying about monsters. Just because a monster goes cute, it

912
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you can't go back and make them fearsome again.

913
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: This kind of thing happens all the time, and so

914
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: there's always going to be continued exploration and re exploration.

915
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: Just because Ninja's become heroes or anti heroes in one

916
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: property doesn't mean they can't be just absolute villains in another.

917
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 1: You know, we can continue to have fun in that regard.

918
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a saw tooth effect. I mean you you

919
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 3: know the seventies, you've already got all monsters attack and

920
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 3: the ones where Godzilla is like, oh, he's a good dad.

921
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 3: But then you come back decades later and you can

922
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 3: get Chinn Godzillo. Yeah, where the monster is a problem

923
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 3: yet again.

924
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Well there you have it Part four

925
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: of the Ninja. I don't know that we covered everything,

926
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: but we covered a lot of things related to the Ninja.

927
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: If we missed anything, or if there's some detail you

928
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: would like to bring up, write in. We would love

929
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Just a reminder that Stuff to

930
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast

931
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: with core episodes in Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do a

932
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: short form episode on Wednesdays. Fridays we do Weird House Cinema.

933
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious concerns to

934
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: just talk about what a weird film and currently we

935
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: run rerun or volve episodes on Saturdays and on Mondays,

936
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 1: where we've been experimenting with different format. But we are

937
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: going to have more listener mail episodes pop up. In fact,

938
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 1: there should be one popping up this Thursday. Then goes

939
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: according to plan and let's see finally, Oh yeah, if

940
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: you're on social media, look us up. We're probably on there.

941
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: Follow us. If you're on Instagram, we are st b

942
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: y M podcast. Just help me help us get our

943
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: our subscriber or follower base up there a bit. It's

944
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: a it's a newer account. The old one went away

945
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: and ninjas took it down, so so help us get

946
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 1: some numbers on that new one if you use the format,

947
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: but don't sign up for it if you're not using

948
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: it already, I mean really all the social media stuff, yeah,

949
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: don't put a lot of work into it.

950
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

951
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

952
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

953
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,240
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

954
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your

955
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

956
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio for

957
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio. It's the heart radio app,

958
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

959
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: M