1 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: It's fun because you could have something like gumbo, and uh, 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,319 Speaker 1: it's different every place you go too, but it's good 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: every place you go to. Hello, I'm welcome to Savor. 4 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum. And today we're 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: talking about gumbo. Yes we are, which is very exciting 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 1: because it can be a lot of things and it 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: cannot be certain things. Absolutely, yes, um. And that quote 8 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: you heard from the top was kind of kind of 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: demonstrating the challenge we face, was from Christopher Horner, the 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: general manager at the Bombay Club, which is a cool 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: cocktail lounge in the middle of the French Quarter. And 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: I think that almost everyone we spoke to while we 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: were in New Orleans. And as you heard in our 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: massive and yet somehow barely skipping the surface episode overview 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: of New Orleans, gumbo is a dish that perfectly exemplifies 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: the culinary influences and cultures that make New Orleans New Orleans. 17 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: It's communal, something meant to be shared, and a confluence 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: of so many flavors and cultures. But okay, let's not 19 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: get ahead of ourselves here and ask the question gumbo, 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: what is it? Well, this is the first time I've 21 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: ever felt like I might get in trouble. For a definition, 22 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: gumbo is a soup or stew, depending on how thick 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: you make it. You start with a good stock and 24 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: usually one or more animal protein vegetables, including but not 25 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: limited to, the Louisiana Holy Trinity that's celery, onion, and 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,919 Speaker 1: bell pepper, and then the flavor and texture are rounded 27 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: out with herbs and one or more thickening agents, and 28 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: it served over rice. Those thickeners might be rue, which 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: is pan fried flower, and or okra, which is a 30 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: vegetable with some good to it, and or filet, which 31 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: is a dried ground sassafras, all of which will add 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: their own flavors. If you're making it Creole style, you 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: probably add tomato. If you're making it Cajun style, you 34 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: probably don't. And in case you missed our intro episode, 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: Creole could be oversimplified to mean city cuisine and Cajun 36 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: to mean country cuisine. There's tended to be a couple 37 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: other differences between Creole style and Cajun style, but will 38 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: hit those in a minute. However you make it, the 39 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: result is a rich and savory comfort food, just savory 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: protein on top of savory herbs on top of smokiness 41 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: or roastinus, cut through with a sweet bite from those 42 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: aromatic vegetables and warming, but probably not like too spicy hot. 43 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: It's actually pretty good for you and can be made 44 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: either inexpensively or super fancy. Yeah, and it is a 45 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: popular one pot dish, or I would say generally it's 46 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: a one pot I don't know that originated in Southern 47 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: Louisiana and combines cooking techniques and ingredients from Africa, Indigenous America, 48 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: and Europe. Here's Liz Williams, the director and founder at 49 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: the Southern Food and Beverage Museum in New Orleans. So 50 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: the simplest way to think about it, although totally not 51 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: with all the nuances, is that the three continents came 52 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: together to form the basis for the cuisine, and our 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: foods really reflect all of that. For example, our gumbo, 54 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: we have three basic thickeners for gumbo. You have Oprah, 55 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: which is African, you have file A, which is American, 56 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: and you have root, which is European. Now you can 57 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: use the mall and one gumbo, or you use them separately, 58 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: as that was traditionally they were separate um, and you 59 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: would use them when this was in season or that 60 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: was in season. It's so emblematic that a full two 61 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: thirds of our interview subjects brought it up all on 62 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: their own, without any prompting. Here's Rebecca Shapman, the general 63 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: manager over at Brossard's, a Creol restaurant that's been in 64 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: operation since the jazz age. The style. If you think 65 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: of gumbo, it's a melting pot. It's it's a variety 66 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: of different flavors and textures that you're going to have 67 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,839 Speaker 1: based off of the cultures and people who were here. 68 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: So with Creole, you're gonna get a little influence from Spanish, 69 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: You're gonna get a little French, You're gonna get a 70 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: little African American, you're gonna get a little Native American, 71 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: all in that same genre. With all those influences, it's 72 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: no surprise that there are as many ways to make 73 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: gumbo as there are folks who make it. Almost every 74 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: family has their own gumbo recipe. A lot of our 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: interviewees shared there's with us are are sort of a 76 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: base version keeping. Even my family had a gumbo recipe. 77 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: My grandparents on my mother's side have roots in the 78 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: l A Lower Alabama as it's called um. This area 79 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: is on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico, and 80 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: Creole dishes like gumbo spread from southern Louisiana to southern Alabama. 81 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: And if you remember from our Jumbalaya episode, Oh, there 82 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: is even a theory held by some not necessarily as 83 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: that jambalaya actually originates from Lower Alabama. See that episode 84 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: for more on that. In either case, you can find 85 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: these creole dishes pretty easily in that area of Alabama. 86 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: And my grandparents, who were excellent chefs, had a delicious 87 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: gumbo recipe with a very dark creew, lots of ocra, 88 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: not too much rice, and a lot of shellfish, particularly 89 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: fresh caught crab. Here's Chef Isaac Toop's, co founder of 90 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: Toops Metery, commenting on the gumbo he serves at his restaurant. 91 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: So Grandma to grandma, you're gonna get different methods of cooking, 92 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: pass it down to the grandchildren. They're gonna cook at 93 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: different That's very Cajun thing to do. Everybody's gumbo is 94 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: just a little bit different and minds no different. Some 95 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: folks insist that you've got to make gumbo with all 96 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: seafood protein you know, shrimp, crabs, oysters, etcetera, or all 97 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: land based protein your sausage, ham, chicken or other birds 98 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: or etcetera. Creel gumbo is often seafood, and Cajun is 99 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: often land food, as the Cajuns were more likely to 100 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: be hunters and trappers stuff like that. But some folks 101 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: mix land and sea, and there are a few further 102 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: yet outliers. One of the people we unfortunately didn't get 103 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: to interview was Leah Chase of Dookie Chase's Restaurant. The 104 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: restaurant is well known for their gumbo, and particularly a 105 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: type of gumbo called Gumbo zerb, which is a meatless 106 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: creole version that features a lot of greens that's often 107 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: served during Lent and especially on Holy Thursday, which is 108 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: the day before Good Friday. According though to an interview 109 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: with Leah done by our favorite rocket scientists slash barbecue 110 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: Pitmaster Dr Howard Conyers for his show Nourish, the tradition 111 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: is to put an uneven number of types of greens 112 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: in the dish because even numbers are bad luck, and 113 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: each green represents a new friend you will make in 114 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: the coming year. And one of these new friends will 115 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: be rich. We can extrapolate this to New Year's traditions. 116 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to make new friend this year, and I 117 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: assume they'll be rich because I only have one to 118 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: choose from. One has to be rich. That's going to 119 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: be them. Yeah, I can't wait. I'm just like waiting 120 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: at the door any minute now, rich friend. Um do 121 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: Key Chases serves about one thousand, five hundred people on 122 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: Holy Thursday every year. Leah often says of gumbo. People 123 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: are like a gumbo pot. It takes all kinds of 124 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: people to make a good world, just like it takes 125 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: all kinds of things to make a good bowl of gumbo. 126 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: Let's get down into a little bit of gumbo science 127 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: by talking about one of those thickeners. Rue. Yes, I 128 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: love ruing. I know actually I get don't make that pun, 129 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: but but I do enjoy it. You're one of the 130 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: few people I know that enjoys it instead of being 131 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: intimidated by it. Oh I guess I just did it 132 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: often enough that I'm just like, oh, yeah, no, this 133 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: is just I mean, as long as you keep staring it, 134 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: it's basically fine. Is that the key? Oh yeah? Oh? Yeah, 135 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: don't stop staring it. I've only done it like twice. 136 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: Oh geez, never stop staring it. Okay, alright, alright, backing up, So, 137 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: a rou is the basis of French sauce making because 138 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: you can add flour, just raw flour, to any soup 139 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: or other liquidy dish to help thicken it up. That 140 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: the starch molecules in flower absorb water, and I've used 141 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: this to save overmashed potatoes a number of times. Um. 142 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: But just dumping raw flour into a dish presents a 143 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: few problems. It can clump and form sort of unpleasant 144 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: like lumps, or if you add too much, it'll taste 145 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: kind of like chalky or raw Doughey' not good. No, um, 146 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: and it's probably not going to reach its full absorption potential. 147 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: So the solution, well, it's the same thing we do 148 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: every night, Pinky Bryant and butter, of course. But you know, 149 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: if Pinky and the brain had tried frying things in butter, 150 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: I feel like they would have gotten further on there, 151 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: like world domination bend. I think so, because you know, 152 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: if your brain is satisfied what I'm saying. And so 153 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: to make a RU you cook equal parts of flour 154 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: and your choice of fat. It doesn't have to be 155 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: butter over lowish heat, stirring constantly. Oh, what you're looking 156 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: to do is break apart any clumps of flower grains 157 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: and let the fat really get in there and separate 158 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: them out. That way, the starch molecules will have the 159 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: elbow room that they need to really absorb lots of liquid. 160 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: And as you add the liquid, the starch grabs it 161 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: up and forms a gel, which is how you get 162 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: a nice thick like beshemel or gravy or whatever you're doing. 163 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: But gumbo recipes call for a dark ru Right, the 164 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: longer you cook your ru in the pan, the darker 165 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: it'll get. You're browning it the way that you would 166 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: see a steak, So it'll start white and then deep 167 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: into reddish, than brown, and eventually black, at which point 168 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: you've probably gone too far. Pull it back, pull it 169 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: back or a start over is the case. Maybe, But yeah, 170 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: as it darkens, you're going to create some lovely, nutty, 171 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: toasty flavors. You're also creating color that can add to 172 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: the appearance of your finished saucer dish, and you're breaking 173 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: up some of the long chains of starches into these 174 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: shorter molecules, which means that it will be a less 175 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: effective thickener um that the short molecules are more like 176 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: slippy and less clingy with each other. And that's why, 177 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: other than tradition, uh, cooks who use a very dark 178 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: rue either want their gumbo soupy or they're going to 179 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: add some other thickeners. Before we came in here to record, 180 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: I was reading an article from aforementioned chef Isaac Tubes 181 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: about what he likes to do, and he says that 182 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: you should get you should aim for a rue that 183 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: is the color of a Hershey's bar. And he even 184 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: recommended like open one and comparing it the bonus you 185 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: get to eat the hershey bar. Um. And he also said, 186 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: and he he knew this might be blasphemous, but that 187 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: he likes to make his room not with butter, but 188 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: with grape seed or avocado oil. Is it the smoke points? Oh? 189 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: Oh good point? Yeah, yeah, I see you. Yeah. I 190 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: The recipe that I was the most intrigued by called 191 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: for duck fat like duck lard, and I was like 192 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: yes please, in general, yes please, yes please. We also 193 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: got the chance to talk with Dr Jessica Harris, who 194 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: literally wrote the book on gumbo, or rather on the 195 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: wider world of Creole cuisine. The book is actually called 196 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: Beyond Gumbo, Creole Fusion Food from the Atlantic rim. She 197 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: pointed out that any time you see okra in a recipe, 198 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: it's a footprint of African food ways. The word gumbo 199 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: itself is thought to come from a bunt to word 200 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: for okra con combo or yeah, that's probably it. There 201 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: are always multiple origin stories of yeah. Yes. Jessica talked 202 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: to us about some of the different ways to make gumbo. 203 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: There were basically two types of gumbo. There was a 204 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: file gumbo, which was you know, the Hank Williams jumble, 205 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: a crawfish by a file gumbo, and then there was 206 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: a feavy gumbo. The feavy gumbos were the oprah gumbos. 207 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: And while people you see can't put that and that 208 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: people do, and that's you know, one of those sort 209 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: of apocryphal stories. But the other thing is that in 210 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: terms of some of those gumbos, you get one sort 211 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: of thickener. Okra is a thickener. The more you cut okrah, 212 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: the more it exudes that thing that everybody hates about, 213 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: so it was used as a thickener file. The word 214 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: comes from the French word file, which means to thread, 215 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: because if you spread file into something forms little threads, 216 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: hence filet. So they were both ways of taking a 217 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: thin soup, taking something that might not have been able 218 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: to be of substance for a family, and making it 219 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: something of substance, making it a thicker soup, making it 220 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: a meal as opposed to a little liquid. So on 221 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: either side that would work. I have a very dirty 222 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: culinary secret, which is I'm allergic to shellfish. I do 223 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: therefore a gumbo that is probably more a Casun gumbo 224 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: than it is a Creole gumbo, which would be a 225 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: sausage and a duck kind of thing with a real um, 226 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: a real mahogany room, and a mahogany room is called 227 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: a mahogany root because it is the rule that is 228 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: cooked and cooked and cooked until it is pretty much 229 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: the color of mahogany, which is a very different route, 230 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: which is a Cajun room more than it is a 231 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: your route. You start talking about those kinds of nuances 232 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: and those kinds of differences, and that's when you start 233 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: getting into some of the definers. Gumbo is all about 234 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: building flavors. You might start with that rue and add 235 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: aromatic vegetables and add stock at meats, and then add 236 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: more vege and more meat and other thickeners. Gumbo recipes 237 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: allow for a lot of room for experimentation, depending on 238 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: what's fresh and locally available. Take the World Championship Gumbo 239 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: cook Off every October in New Iberia, a town a 240 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: couple of hours west of New Orleans. Stanley Dry posets. 241 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: There are only two things you need to make a gumbo, 242 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: rice and a thickener. Indeed, but there are certain rules 243 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: that are not meant to be broken, at least to 244 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: some people. Amy Sins, founder of food entertainment company Lengvois, 245 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: spoke about this. I would say that there are several 246 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: polarizing foods that people will absolutely really argue to the 247 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: death about um, and then there are things that we 248 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: all agree upon, and uh i am. I would say 249 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: that most of the time it's what their mama taught them, 250 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: and it is not my position to question someone else's mama. 251 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: When you look at a dish like gumbo and the 252 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: rules that different families will have about gumbo, what color 253 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: is the rue. Can you put your land in your 254 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: sea animals in the same pot. Is sausage to sausage 255 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: Your bacon really count because that's kind of seasoning, So 256 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: maybe you can throw that in a seafood gumbo. And 257 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: the debate that putting a tomato in a gumbo could 258 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: spark is exponential. And I laugh all the time when 259 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: I opened up my Facebook and some national brand has 260 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: put on their Facebook page an instant pot gumbo or 261 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: some kind of crock pot gumbo, and you go, who 262 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: the heck to put some mushroom in their gumbo? Where 263 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: did the lava beans come from? This isn't this is soup, 264 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: is not gumbo. And I think the one thing that 265 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: we agree upon is that we feel passionately that certain 266 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: dishes are ours. Gumbo is ours, jumbalaya is ours, and 267 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: you can make it. But if it's not made the 268 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: way that we agree it should be made, just call 269 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: it something else. And I think, uh, you you could 270 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: walk out on a street corner and start a debate 271 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: for an hour if you, if you really wanted to, 272 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: you can almost define gumbo most concisely on what it's not. Yes, 273 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: and apparently what it's not is whatever Disney did a 274 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: couple of years ago and they had a gumbo available. 275 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: Oh so what happened there was Disney posted a video 276 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: recip be for Princess Tiana's Healthy Gumbo on social media. 277 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: It included kale, It was sprinkled with kena. It didn't 278 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: use a rule. Disney took down the video like shortly after, 279 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: snarky responses with hashtag gumbo strong started trending. More than 280 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: one person we talked to brought it up, and it 281 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: got to the point where someone would be about to 282 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: mention it and you and I would start laughing. Kept 283 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: coming up. Here's Pepper bow And, a food and water 284 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: attorney in New Orleans, speaking about this whole incident. I 285 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: like driving that home by reminding people of the kurfuffle 286 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: a few years ago when Disney tried to make gumbo, 287 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: and obviously somebody beyond me remembers that. Um, it was 288 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: on precedented. It was the one time that I can 289 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: tell you there was an outcry across the state Louisiana. 290 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: It didn't matter what your politics were, It didn't matter 291 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: if you were from North Louisiana or South Louisiana. We 292 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: were all in the same outrage. I stayed at Port 293 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: Orleans in Disney a couple of years ago. I did 294 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: not try the gumbo. I don't know if it was 295 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: available there. Um, But when I was thinking about this, 296 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: I can't think of another US state or single city 297 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: that has an entire hotel resort based on it in Disney. Yeah, 298 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: like there's a New York themed one in Vegas. But yeah, 299 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: New Orleans is one of the very few named cities, 300 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: and certainly in Disney's like Princess Repertoire, like most of 301 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: them are sort of like Germany probably um this once 302 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: in France. Yeah, it's remarkable how mythic New Orleans has 303 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: made itself and how huge gumbo looms in that mythos 304 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: So how did we get to hear? Great question. We'll 305 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: get into the history of gumbo after we get back 306 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: from a quick break for a word from our sponsor, 307 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you sponsored, Yes, thank you. To start, 308 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: let's dismiss a popular food myth, shall we gumbo does 309 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: not descend from Bullia base done. I guess that was 310 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: a thing that people thought, and you know, I had 311 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: never considered it before myself. But when I was researching 312 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: this French influence in New Orleans, it did make sense, 313 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: but it seems that most historians experts agree that that 314 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: is not right. The first written records of gumbo date 315 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: back to the dawn of the nineteenth century, or possibly 316 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: even earlier. A handwritten note from seventeen sixty four, composed 317 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: by an enslaved person in New Orleans named Combo, came 318 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: with a mention of a dish called on gumbo, spelled 319 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: like I assume the French would spell at G O 320 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: M B E A U. There's no indication as to 321 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: whether this dish referred to what we think of as gumbo. 322 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: It doesn't really say what was in there. Hm. One 323 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: thing that historians agree on when it comes to gumbo 324 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: is the influence of African peoples, as more and more 325 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: enslaved Africans were brought to New Orleans in larger numbers 326 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: in the seventeen twenties. By seventy three, after the population 327 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: of New Orleans was African, which of course shaped the 328 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: cuisine and also brought over rice technology and okrap yes, 329 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: But African American recipes of gumbo weren't published until after 330 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: the Civil War, which adds a layer of complication when 331 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: it comes to tracing the history. Bil was mentioned in 332 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: a French journal called Observation, So that phy Zeke in 333 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: sight four, quote, these leaves are used in sauces. A 334 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: pinch up this powder is enough to make a viscous broth. 335 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: The author goes on, quote, this is the dish we 336 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: in America call gumbo. However, we must distinguish this American 337 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: stew from the one called gumbo. Five. This is done 338 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: with the pods of a species of mallow known to 339 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: botanists as the sabdifa beve. It turns out is the 340 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: Louisiana Creole word for okra, and the author notes that 341 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: it's thickening power is even stronger than that of powdered sassafras, 342 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: which the Creoles called phile. Gumbo was served at an 343 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: eighteen o three gubernatorial reception in New Orleans and also 344 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: at a Cajun get together on the Acadian coast in 345 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: eighteen o four. While it's generally understood these days that 346 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: gumbo is served with rice, this wasn't always so. A 347 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: frenchman's account of his travels in Louisiana in eighteen o 348 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 1: five described a gumbo served over a cornmeal mush that 349 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: makes sense does In eighteen seventeen, a paper out of 350 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: Virginia mentioned that okra was native to New Orleans and 351 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: included two recipes Virginia That's untrue because cool Virginia Wolves 352 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: eight book The Virginia Housewife came with a recipe for gumbo, 353 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: a West India dish, as she described it, and then 354 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: a decade later, New England Farmer wrote that okra had 355 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: a quote known reputation in the West Indies. A very 356 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: celebrated dish called gumbo is prepared in those countries where 357 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: okra is grown by mixing with the green pods, ripe 358 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: tomatoes and onions, all chopped fine, to which are added 359 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: pepper and salt, and the whole stewed. The coastal South 360 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: started growing okra in the eighteen forties, and often the 361 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: West African word for okra, gumbo, appeared next to any 362 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: mentioned of okra. The French adopted the word gumbo to 363 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: mean okra, which is still the word today and it 364 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: has contributed to this Bulia based confusion. Meanwhile, the eighteen 365 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: forty one edition of Webster's Dictionary defined gumbo as quote 366 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: a dish of food made of young capsules of okra 367 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: with salt and pepper, stewed and served with melted butter. 368 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: A modern research meanwhile turned up an early description of 369 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: a protein that might have been used in the book 370 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: Pavey in the Borderland's Um explores the journey of this 371 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: young Frenchman by the name of Theodore Pavey to Louisiana 372 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: and Texas in eighteen eighteen thirty and thus explores that 373 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: the cultural forces that were shaping the whole area at 374 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: the time. And he wrote about gumbo that he ate 375 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: lots of squirrel gumbo, a delicious stew made with rice 376 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: and chateaubrion sassafras. Though at the time gambo was often 377 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: associated with the Caribbean, by the eighteen thirties it was 378 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: already popular enough of a dish in New Orleans to 379 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: be the source of jokes and just generally understood to 380 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: be well liked in the city. Fake this quote from 381 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: an eighteen thirty eight edition of Times, pick a Une, 382 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: secret of health, Live light, and eat plenty of gumbo 383 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: all right? Or this a year later in the New 384 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: Orleans Time quote the greatest luxury we know of, Save 385 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: and accept a plate of gumbo is a real old 386 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: fashioned sneeze, like a side. Do you remember when Britney 387 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: Spears said that she loves sneezes because they felt like 388 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: tiny orgasms in your nose. I do not remember that, 389 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: well I do. I can't forget. It was that what 390 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: the rest of this article was about. It was about 391 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: the pleasures of a sneeze. Yeah, well, but no Britney Spears, Well, 392 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I just you know, that's that's cool. 393 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: It's true. Sneezes can be very satisfying. Anyway. That was 394 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: my brief aside um. Eighteen forties Directions for Cookery by 395 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: Eliza Leslie came with two recipes of relevance, one for 396 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: gumbo soup and one for just gumbo, subtitled a favorite 397 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: New Orleans Dish. A handful of gumbo recipes appeared in 398 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty five La Cuisine Creole by Lovecadio Hearn. These 399 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: recipes featured all kinds of ingredients. Earned sscribed gumbo as 400 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: a way to use up leftovers, so bacon, shrimp, crab, oysters, 401 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: beef chicken with either okra or pile as the thickener. 402 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: A few mentioned brown flower, but not specifically Rue. More 403 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: than one of these recipes coming out during this time 404 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: acknowledged the African and Indigenous American roots of gumbo. Also 405 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: in the Christian Women's Exchange of New Orleans called the 406 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: making of gumbo quote an occult science in their Creole 407 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: cookery book Um. They went on to write that gumbo 408 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: should be allowed its proper place in the gastronomical world, 409 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: which seems like a compliment, a cold science. I was like, 410 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: I can go either way, especially from the Christian Women's League. Sure, 411 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: but then that sounds that sounds good. I think it 412 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: was one of those like kind of backhanded compliments sort 413 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: of situations. Probably yeah, probably criticism. Thanks humans. It goes 414 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: on to say that gumbo can be made of scraps 415 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: of cold meat or foul a few oysters, crabs, or 416 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: sp and with a couple of spoonfuls of well cooked 417 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,479 Speaker 1: rice is a very satisfying and economical dinner. One thing 418 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: of interest is that among their gumbo recipes, none of 419 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: them include okra, and yet there are three recipes for 420 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: okra soup, and these early recipes they were largely separated 421 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: into one thickened with phile, and those thickened with okra 422 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: prior to refrigeration, Okra was preferred, while phil was only 423 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: used when okra wasn't available in the off season. On 424 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: the other hand, some records show that by the nineteenth 425 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: century some people were drying their okra for use year round. 426 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: We then see more gumbo recipes published out of New 427 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: Orleans with nineteen oh ones the Pickie Uns Creole Cookbook. 428 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: The proteins included in these recipes expounded upon previous ones 429 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: to include things like a turkey, wild or cultivated squirrel, rabbit, veal, 430 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: and crab. Then that wondrous bizarre time in America the 431 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, the Cajun craze we've mentioned before. This is 432 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: a decade win. Thanks to folks like Paul Brudome, more 433 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: and more of America was exposed to New Orleans cuisine. 434 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: Suddenly black and fish was on menus everywhere, and long 435 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: standing New Orleans spice blend company zat Rains took full 436 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: advantage of the trend. Um They've been selling seasonings since 437 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties, but went national around this time. Mid 438 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: eighties and uh And introduced boxed rice dinners, starting with 439 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: a gumbo mix and a dirty rice mix in five. 440 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: They were acquired by McCormick in two thousand three for 441 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: a hundred and eighty million dollars, and thanks to them, 442 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: you can now find gumbo in your freezer section, or 443 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: something called gumbo. Anyway, though the Cajun craze died down, 444 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: it's still a big business. In they opened a new 445 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: twenty six million dollar facility that creates some three hundred 446 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: different products, with nationwide sales of two hundred and fifty 447 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: million dollars per year. A common opinion is that gumbo 448 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: is from scratch. In our own Atlanta mayor then mayor elect, 449 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: Keisha Lands Bottoms got heat for tweeting about her use 450 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: of a gumbo box mix. He's always get in tuble 451 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: for food things. She did the recently with the Maccaronian cheese. 452 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: Everyone was so mad about it. A lady's busy, let 453 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: her cook. I mean, whatever you gotta do, I'm I 454 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: I'm fine of it. Yeah, I mean the issue I'm 455 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: not with Keisha, but you know, but in general, with 456 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: the looking down upon of using stuff like Saturin's, is 457 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: that dilution of culture that we were talking about earlier, 458 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, like like don't take this thing that I love, 459 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: make a slap dash version of it and then call 460 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: it by the same name, especially when so much of 461 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: New Orleans economy is based on getting people to go 462 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: there and to enjoy the real version, which I get. 463 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: And I have been known to express frustration at people 464 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: who tell me they don't like a certain saying, and 465 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: then I hear the only thing they've tried is yeah, 466 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: some prepackaged version. Yeah. And I've even been guilty myself 467 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: with my very vocal opinions about Mayo and ranch. But 468 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: I have not tried homemade stuff. So it's a universal problem. 469 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: It is it is we we can all stand more 470 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: culinary education. We should eat More's what I'm saying. I 471 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: can get behind this advice. I'm ready. I've been training. 472 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: Let me Adam coach um before we get a chance 473 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: to go do that. We've got a little bit more 474 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: of this episode for you, but first we've got one 475 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: more quick break for a word from our sponsor, and 476 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you. While the 477 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: popularization of gumbo might have given many New Orleanans, shall 478 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: we say, anxiety, it may have also made the way 479 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: for chefs to exercise some creativity. Here's Dicky Brennan, whose 480 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: family together owns and operates thirteen restaurants in New Orleans. 481 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: For so many generations, it was the same dish. There 482 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of evolution, you know, red beans and 483 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: rice with red beans and rice, Gumbo was gumbo. But 484 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: in the last twenty thirty years, and it's I really 485 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: believe it's because young American men and women have gotten 486 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 1: these formal educations, so they had this foundation work from 487 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: after thinking America were creative. You know in a city 488 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: like New Orleans is in probably great. I mean, my god, 489 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: we created jazz. Prior to jazz, you had old world music. 490 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: If I've played a certain way, I mean, what happened 491 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: New Orleans. Look how it's change the world. Isaac Toops 492 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: expressed sub reservations to some of the new dishes that 493 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: are labeled gumbo, but drove home the versatility of gumbo 494 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: and this coming together of ingredients to create this filling 495 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: and comforting dish, root beer and gumbo. Every everybody's got 496 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: a crazy new wave of of doing gumbo. When recently 497 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: with Keena Waw and Kale, it was like whoa back up? 498 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: I think, you know, Cajun food is is very versaile 499 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: and whatnot. And to speak on what Liz said, no, 500 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: every everybody, everybody besides the Native Americans, were immigrants coming 501 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,239 Speaker 1: to South Louisiana. And what Cajun food is and what 502 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: it was is still going to be a collaboration of 503 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: different genres in different areas and land a location, and 504 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: it still us today. Amy spoke about it as more 505 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: of a personal struggle of what to support. And so 506 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: you have a dilemma as a diner here in New Orleans. 507 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: You have to decide are you gonna go old school 508 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: are you going to be innovative? But you have the 509 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: opportunity to do either. And as long as we can 510 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: protect that classic and not lose it, then I say, 511 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: we can have as much fun as we want on 512 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: the other side too. So I see great things, and 513 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: I see a lot of opportunities, and I I see 514 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: us as a constantly swinging pendulum. We get very protective 515 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: and classic, and then we all chill a little bit, 516 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: and then we start getting a little wild, and then 517 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: we rain ourselves back in and I see that happening 518 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: over the next couple of years. Gumbo really does represent 519 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: so much It's like eating a bowl of tradition, end 520 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: of history, from something that people made out of necessity 521 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: to something you find at a nice restaurant, something that 522 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: is shared and also personal and yet leause room for creativity. 523 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: Amanda mcfillan at the Historic New Orleans Collection commented on 524 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: the two types of gumbo that her mother, who is Cajun, 525 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: would make. She would do two different types of gumbo. 526 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: She would do a chicken and pork gumbo, which was 527 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: my favorite, and she would do a shrimp and okra gumbo. 528 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: And she would as it's boiling, as it's cooking and 529 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: swimmering on the stove, she would crack roy eggs into 530 00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: a dish and put them in there and kind of 531 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: poached eggs in the broth, which was wonderful. Does both 532 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: sound pretty wonderful to me? Oh yeah, I really wish 533 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: I could eat gumbo. No, I do too. Bell Peppers, 534 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: Bell Peppers, A peek behind the curtain. Originally, we one 535 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 1: of the reasons we chose New Orleans was to go 536 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: to the Gumbo Festival. Unfortunately missed it. That's our style here, Yeah, 537 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: so we we got to we got to go to 538 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: the Booden Festival and also the po Boy Festival, so 539 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: I feel like we made up for it. We did. 540 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: I mean, there were plenty of foods I couldn't eat 541 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: there too, so yeah, I don't worry. I didn't starve. 542 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: There is a lot of food to be had and 543 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: you will be hearing about more of those in the 544 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: coming weeks. And in the meantime, listeners, do you have 545 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: gumbo recipes should be willing to share or, if not, 546 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: recommendations for your favorite places to get a good fowl. 547 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: I have such a baby right now. Please let us 548 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,479 Speaker 1: know at Hello at saber pod dot com. You can 549 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: also find us on social media on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 550 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: We are at sabor Pod. Thanks so much to our 551 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard, our executive producer Christopher Hassiotis, 552 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: and all of our interviewees, and also the good folks 553 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: who put us in touch with them. Thank you to 554 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: you for listening, and we hope that lots more good 555 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: things are coming your way. I definitely had a moment 556 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: because I got the gumbo, wonderful gambo, dark crew. I 557 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: had my gumbo and then someone came over and said, oh, 558 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: it turns out that we missed a lot of stuff. Yeah, 559 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: this guy just appeared and was like more gumbo. I 560 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: think it was supposed to be a two poor thing, 561 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: like one of like mostly the base and the second 562 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: with mostly the meats the proteins, and they had forgotten 563 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: the protein stuff and so yeah, it was. It was. 564 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:11,439 Speaker 1: It was bonus. It was beautiful bonus bonus gambo. Very good. Yeah. 565 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: M