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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Josh and Chuck here to remind you that

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Speaker 1: our last three shows of the year. Boy, this is

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Speaker 1: a good show this year are taking place very soon

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Speaker 1: and tickets are still available.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so get in the saddle and come out and

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Speaker 2: see us partners in Orlando, Atlanta, and Nashville.

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Speaker 1: Just go to stuff youshould know dot com and click

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Speaker 1: on the tour link and you can get all your

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Speaker 1: tickets right there. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and

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Speaker 2: Charles W. Chuck Bryan is here and this is Stuff

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Speaker 2: you Should Know. Dear Diary edition.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess I'll just ask the obvious question. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever kept a diary of any kind, any kind

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Speaker 1: of journal?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I did when I was younger, but

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Speaker 2: I haven't in a long long time. And it's one

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Speaker 2: of those things like I'm like, gosh, this is such

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Speaker 2: a great idea, do it a couple of times, and

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Speaker 2: then just fall off, Yeah, fall off the wagon.

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things that you can

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Speaker 1: either be inclined to be one of those people that

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Speaker 1: does it and keeps up with it or not. But

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Speaker 1: you can also learn to do it, I think, with practice,

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Speaker 1: like anything else, by setting that habit. And the reason

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Speaker 1: I assigned this idea to Livia, who did a great job,

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Speaker 1: is because my good friend Mike Anderson has kept a

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Speaker 1: daily journal since nineteen ninety one. Dear Mike, it's pretty amazing. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: never read it, but it's just it comes up. It

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Speaker 1: comes up every now and then because it's it is

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Speaker 1: a journal of his life. But what it serves, as

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Speaker 1: far as the friend group goes, is a journal of

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Speaker 1: all of our lives to a certain degree. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: we'll be talking, we'll be camping or just hanging out

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Speaker 1: or something, and we'll be talking about something that happened

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Speaker 1: in the old days and we won't be clear on it,

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Speaker 1: and Michae will just be like, you know, I can

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Speaker 1: find that out for us, and it's just it's cool.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a bit of a time capsule, and

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Speaker 1: you know it's a he's he's currently getting them, i think,

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Speaker 1: digitized from his old handwriting days, oh handwritten days, rather

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Speaker 1: and I was like, you know these are important, right

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Speaker 1: and you need to make sure you know, we're all

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Speaker 1: getting older, and like, what if a UFO picked you

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Speaker 1: up and took you away, and he's like, I got

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Speaker 1: that cover of my friend there going to his daughter

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Speaker 1: already there will be preserved by her. And I would.

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Speaker 1: Mike's a crazy, weird, creative genius, so I would. I'd

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Speaker 1: like to see these like published one day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's who you want to keep a journal for

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Speaker 2: that long? For sure.

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Speaker 1: It could be one of those things that comes out,

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Speaker 1: you know, one hundred years from now, and that's when

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Speaker 1: he becomes famous.

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Speaker 2: What year did he start?

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Speaker 1: Nineteen ninety one, so it's twenty twenty three, So do

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Speaker 1: the math.

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Speaker 2: No, wait, thirty eight years?

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Speaker 1: Do the math?

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Speaker 2: Are you sweating my upper lip is?

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Speaker 1: Anyway, So this is on diaries And this actually turned out,

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Speaker 1: at least in the history section, to be way more

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Speaker 1: woman centric than I imagined it would be. But it

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Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense now that I see the

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Speaker 1: history of it.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and if you kind of dive into tenth

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Speaker 2: century Japan, which we'll talk about in a second, there

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Speaker 2: was a kind of a movement of journaling. What a

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Speaker 2: lot of people point to is the first real historical

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Speaker 2: example of people using diaries. They're writing because they're not

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Speaker 2: allowed to be externally, So the only way to share

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Speaker 2: themselves is to write to themselves. And women have so

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Speaker 2: long been repressed by men that I could see journaling

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Speaker 2: being a largely woman affair for most of history.

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Speaker 1: I should say, yeah, I mean we can actually start

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Speaker 1: with that, because the earlier examples aren't really diaries. Like

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a papyrus logbook by an Egyptian official

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Speaker 1: named Marror about limestone blocks being delivered for the pyramids

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Speaker 1: at Giza.

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Speaker 2: Not a diary.

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Speaker 1: Not a diary because there's nothing you know, A diary

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Speaker 1: is something personal about someone's experiences. So he wasn't like

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Speaker 1: ten blocks delivered today, also feeling a little depressed. If

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Speaker 1: anyone cares, it was just recording of things. Marcus Aurelius,

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Speaker 1: the Roman Emperor, got a little closer with his meditations

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Speaker 1: because he did talk about things like here's how i'd

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Speaker 1: like to I'd like to develop these character traits and

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Speaker 1: cultivate these things in my life. But it still was

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Speaker 1: sort of abstract. It wasn't like today, this happened and

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Speaker 1: I felt this way about it. So it's kind of

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Speaker 1: these pillow books that are kind of the first diaries.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and again they came up among the ladies

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Speaker 2: of the court in Japan in the tenth century, and

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Speaker 2: again they were extraordinarily repressed, but they were able to

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Speaker 2: share themselves so eloquently that a lot of these these

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Speaker 2: what are called pillow books survived, and one of them

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Speaker 2: was essentially so they would kind of veer into fiction

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Speaker 2: and poetry and stuff in addition to recording, you know,

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Speaker 2: historical events at the court, both large and small. It

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Speaker 2: could be gossip, it could be the death of an emperor.

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Speaker 2: They're really good historical records, but they're also really good

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Speaker 2: inward records of historical figures who otherwise wouldn't have who

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Speaker 2: would have been lost to history, and that from that

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Speaker 2: tradition of kind of veering into fiction a little bit

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Speaker 2: was considered. The first novel, The Tale of the Genji,

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Speaker 2: came out in the eleventh century by Murasaki Shikibu. I

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Speaker 2: think I got that right, and that was basically the

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Speaker 2: first novel. It came out of the pillow books.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there was there were the pillow books, which

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Speaker 1: were written by many women. They used a specific writing

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Speaker 1: system that was I think the first purely Japanese system

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Speaker 1: called hira guna. I'm probably going to get a lot

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Speaker 1: of the stuff wrong. And that was compared to the

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Speaker 1: official writing system called kanji, which I think was derived

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Speaker 1: from Chinese and used exclusively by men, and this other

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Speaker 1: writing system was used only by women, at least at first.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that changed, and I think it

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Speaker 1: was a little simpler, but what it allowed for was

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Speaker 1: if you weren't like formally educated, you could learn this

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Speaker 1: writing system and it allowed for more expression of emotion

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Speaker 1: and like inner thoughts than it seems like Kanji was

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Speaker 1: a little more rigid and didn't have words and characters

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Speaker 1: for that stuff pretty neat. So they wrote these pillow books.

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Speaker 1: There's also one called the Pillow Book, and that was

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Speaker 1: a specific book written by how would you pronounce Sei

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Speaker 1: as a first name? Say saye, say say e? Shona

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Speaker 1: Gun And that was made into a movie in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty six, Peter Greenaway the Pillow Book with what's his face?

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Speaker 1: Obh oh, what's the guy you? And McGregor was in that.

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Speaker 2: I thought he was talking about Sir Alec Guinness. No.

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Speaker 1: Uh, Europe. They started doing this in the Renaissance, right,

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Speaker 1: started journaling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And what's interesting about that is this is when

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Speaker 2: journaling really kind of became more widespread because the idea

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Speaker 2: of individualism became more widespread around the Renaissance, so people

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Speaker 2: started reflecting on their own experiences rather than you know,

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Speaker 2: just counting themselves as part of the crowd. It became

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Speaker 2: it mattered how they felt about something that happened. Then

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Speaker 2: they started writing it down. So even though the pillow

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Speaker 2: books kind of really kicked it off, there were several

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Speaker 2: centuries where that just kind of fell away, and then

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Speaker 2: it was picked up again and really kind of took

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Speaker 2: off off, at least for those of us in the

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Speaker 2: the West, beginning in the Renaissance. Renaissance Europe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, around the same time Puritans started doing the stuff,

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Speaker 1: Quakers started doing it, but these they were diaries, but

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Speaker 1: it was a little more of a you know, how

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Speaker 1: can I be a better Puritan or a better Quaker?

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Speaker 1: And you know, very sort of religious based rather than

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Speaker 1: just like hear my feelings about you know, Goodie Procter exactly.

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Speaker 2: They Oh my god, I can't imagine they would write

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Speaker 2: something like that.

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Speaker 1: The French got really into it too during the French Revolution.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I don't know exactly what kicked that off,

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Speaker 2: but they came up with what's called the journal Intimate,

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Speaker 2: the intimate journal, and the British also said, hey, that's

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Speaker 2: a pretty good idea. So they're writing about their inner lives,

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Speaker 2: their inner feelings, thoughts, experiences. This is the I guess

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Speaker 2: the early nineteenth century and that same century, so this

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Speaker 2: is so now people are like everyday people are writing journals.

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Speaker 2: So there are suddenly self important. And one of the

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Speaker 2: other big things as far as diaries and journaling are concerned,

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Speaker 2: that came about in the nineteenth century was publishing old

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Speaker 2: journals in diaries. Yeah, as not just historical records, but

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Speaker 2: it's like kind of like for mass consumption as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is really interesting because I think it's super

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Speaker 1: cool that you can go back and read first hand

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Speaker 1: accounts of the westward expansion, and again a lot of

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Speaker 1: these were written by women and what they were going

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Speaker 1: through at the time. It's just a fascinating peak into

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Speaker 1: these times that you can't get any other way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can get artifacts, you can recreate scenes in a museum,

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Speaker 1: you can paint pictures of stuff that happen, but like,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing like being able and I know they say

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Speaker 1: pictures worth a thousand words. But I think it's kind

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Speaker 1: of reversed in this situation. I think it diary is

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Speaker 1: worth like a gazillion pictures.

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Speaker 2: Very nice. You know, I was going to say a

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Speaker 2: thousand words and a diary is worth.

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Speaker 1: A picture, right, you have worth one picture.

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Speaker 2: But the idea that people were now willing to publish

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Speaker 2: other people's journals and diaries that were not intended for publication,

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Speaker 2: it actually created a new form, a new literary form,

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Speaker 2: the journal, the diary, usually historical, and Olivia points out

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Speaker 2: that that kind of raised the question from that point on,

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Speaker 2: like are you really just writing for yourself?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Or can you ever overcome the idea that if you

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Speaker 2: don't destroy these before you die, that there's a chance

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Speaker 2: that somebody might discover them and find them worth publishing.

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Speaker 2: And so are you paying attention a little more to

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Speaker 2: sentence structure, to grammar, to the words you're using. You're

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Speaker 2: trying a little harder than you would and therefore is

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Speaker 2: it a little less of something than it was before

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Speaker 2: people started publishing these?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I get that question. There's one of our

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Speaker 1: old favorites, Oscar Wild. There's a very funny line and

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Speaker 1: the importance of being earnest when a character won't let

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Speaker 1: another read their diary and she says it is simply

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Speaker 1: a very young girl's record of her own thoughts and impressions,

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Speaker 1: and consequently meant for publication. When it appears in volume form,

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Speaker 1: I hope you will order a copy.

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Speaker 2: Pretty hilarious.

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Speaker 1: It's good stuff, very oscar wild.

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Speaker 2: So the importance of being earnest came out in eighteen

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Speaker 2: ninety five, which means that that idea was established by then,

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Speaker 2: very well established, and not a lot happened for about

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Speaker 2: a century, and then blogging came along in the late nineties,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, the whole point was to

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Speaker 2: share your diary, your journal, your innermost thoughts. The thing

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Speaker 2: about doing it online, though, is now you had an option.

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Speaker 2: You could share it with your intimates, your closest friends

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Speaker 2: and family, or and like keep everybody else out. I

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Speaker 2: don't know through password protection, who knows. Or you could

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Speaker 2: go the other way around and blog anonymously and share

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Speaker 2: it with everybody, but your closest friends and family have

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Speaker 2: no idea to you. If you do it correctly. Either way,

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Speaker 2: you're sharing things in ways that that diarists never ever

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Speaker 2: did before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or blog non anonymously for just anyone to read anything.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of what social media ended up being.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just like all hang out there.

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Speaker 1: And isn't it great? Yeah that happened.

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Speaker 2: If everybody's ruining their own life, then nobody's ruining their

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Speaker 2: own life.

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Speaker 1: Uh, all right, baby, let's take an early break. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take an early break, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about some of the more famous historical diaries out there.

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Speaker 1: All right, we were talking before the break about historical

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Speaker 1: diaries and how I haven't ever really read one. I've

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Speaker 1: read memoirs and things, which is fine.

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Speaker 2: That's different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a different deal. I'd love to read one

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Speaker 1: of these. It really like prime to my pump.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, did that happen while you were letting it

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Speaker 2: all hang out there.

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Speaker 1: There's a naval administrator, a very famous person named Samuel

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Speaker 1: Peeps who wrote a journal for about nine years in

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Speaker 1: Shorthand even and this is sort of a classic example

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Speaker 1: of a historical diary because he wrote about you know,

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Speaker 1: restoration and the Great Plague of London and the Fire

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Speaker 1: of London, and so not only do you have that stuff,

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Speaker 1: but you have this stuff from his perspective, and you

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Speaker 1: also have him getting annoy in his marriage and talking

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Speaker 1: about how excited he was about his new watch and

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Speaker 1: like kind of fun things like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's considered the greatest English diarist, and I'll own it.

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Speaker 2: Last time he came up, I called him pepees I

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Speaker 2: think probably, but people wrote in and corrected us, so

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Speaker 2: we got it right this time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this watch. Can you read that? That's a pretty

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Speaker 1: fun entry. I think about his new watch.

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Speaker 2: But lord to see how much of my old folly

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Speaker 2: and childishness hangs on me still that I cannot forbear

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Speaker 2: carrying my watch in my hand and the coach all

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Speaker 2: the afternoon and seeing what o'clock it is. One hundred times.

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Speaker 2: That was my Samuel peeps.

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Speaker 1: I love it. That's fun. He's like, what that does

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Speaker 1: is that makes it relatable because everyone has gotten a

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Speaker 1: new watch or a new shirt that they're like, I

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Speaker 1: gotta look in the mirror again and see how this

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Speaker 1: thing looks like. People get excited about that stuff, and

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Speaker 1: it's fun to see someone write about, you know, the

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Speaker 1: fire of London in one hand and also talk about

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Speaker 1: how excited it heard about their new watch.

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Speaker 2: He wrote more than a million words dude, which on

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Speaker 2: its face sounds like a lot. But get this, the

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Speaker 2: entire Harry Potter series is just over a million words.

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Speaker 2: So he wrote about the same amount of words as

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Speaker 2: the entire all the books of Harry Potter by hand,

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Speaker 2: in less time than JK. Rowling wrote them.

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Speaker 1: Oh, all right, pretty nuts, little shade.

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Speaker 2: Uh No, not really. I'm just it's a good touchstone.

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Speaker 1: Sure, plus we could shade her for all kinds of reasons.

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Speaker 1: Sure that don't involve speed of writing, if you really

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Speaker 1: want to do that. Who's the Game of Thrones guy?

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Speaker 1: That's what everyone's mad at him? Cc cc deville.

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Speaker 2: No, it was his named George R. R. Martin.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, are they still mad at him?

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Speaker 2: Cheeses? People give him a break?

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Speaker 1: I mean, isn't that the deal. I don't even know

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Speaker 1: anything about that stuff, but I think everyone's just like,

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Speaker 1: why aren't you finishing yet?

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Speaker 2: Huh? Well? What about Michael Schiner Chuck?

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Speaker 1: Yes, he was an enslaved person in Maryland and in

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Speaker 1: eighteen oh five was eventually a freeman. But he worked

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Speaker 1: at the Washington Naval Yards for many decades and ended

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Speaker 1: up keeping a fifty six year diary that was maybe

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Speaker 1: like my friends Mike one day that'll be published after

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Speaker 1: he died by historians. So all of a sudden, you

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Speaker 1: have this amazing account of the life of an enslaved

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Speaker 1: person over fifty and then a free person over fifty

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Speaker 1: six years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. He also was not educated. Born a slave, you

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Speaker 2: typically weren't educated. In fact, that was usually illegal to

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Speaker 2: educate a slave at the time. So he taught himself, apparently.

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Speaker 2: So he uses his own spelling, his own grammar, very

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Speaker 2: little punctuation, and he had to conserve paper as much

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Speaker 2: as possible, so he would kind of like write stuff

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Speaker 2: wherever there was space on an old page that he left.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I think his grandson came along and kind

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Speaker 2: of organized it and it ended up being published.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, And that's one thing you'll see as

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Speaker 1: a tip later on, is to is to write as

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Speaker 1: good as you can write. If you're not some fancy

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Speaker 1: great writer, like, don't worry about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you can just write punctuation and academics

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Speaker 2: centuries later will come along and digitize your stuff and

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Speaker 2: translated essentially for everybody. It's it's that it can be

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Speaker 2: that important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Josie Underwood is another great example, probably the

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Speaker 1: most famous civilian account of the Civil War. She was

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Speaker 1: au in a unique position because she was from a

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Speaker 1: Southern family in Kentucky, very prominent family in Bowling Green,

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Speaker 1: of slaveholders. But she was sympathetic to the Union cause.

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Speaker 1: And you know, she writes a very sort of honest

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Speaker 1: first person account as someone from that perspective throughout the

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Speaker 1: Civil War and it became very famous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. But then interspersed with that with being occupied by

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Speaker 2: the Confederate Army and then the Union army, she also

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Speaker 2: like talked about normal life for like a society person

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Speaker 2: in Bowling Green, Kentucky, where you know, going to parties

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Speaker 2: or things like that, or looking for what she called

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Speaker 2: her true prince a husband. So it has it's very

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Speaker 2: much like Samuel Peeps. There's historic events, but it's written

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Speaker 2: from the perspective of the individual who also writes about

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Speaker 2: themselves too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this stuff is this is history. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is how we learn about history. If you read

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Speaker 1: history books and they describe in great detail about how

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Speaker 1: life was. Some of that is from research and clues

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Speaker 1: and things like that, but some of that is from

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Speaker 1: first person accounts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. There was another very very famous journal I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you'd call it a diary, but it was

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Speaker 2: from Captain Robert Falcon Scott, who led an expedition to

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Speaker 2: the South Pole in nineteen twelve, was trying to be

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Speaker 2: the first expedition to the South Pole, and in fact

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Speaker 2: they reached the South Pole to find that a rival

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Speaker 2: explorer had beat them by one month, and so they

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Speaker 2: had to make it back to civilization. They never made

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Speaker 2: it back, so Scott chronicled their slow demise over weeks

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Speaker 2: trudging through the Arctic or the Antarctic, I should say,

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Speaker 2: just trying to get back to safety and then just

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Speaker 2: not doing it.

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Speaker 1: I bet that's a heavy read.

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Speaker 2: It is. I was reading it today and it's just it's, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's crazy to put yourself in that situation, which he

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Speaker 2: makes it easy to do in just these little, you know,

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Speaker 2: few sentence what do you call them, not inscriptions or installations, entries,

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Speaker 2: just a few sentences each typically, But yeah, it really

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Speaker 2: kind of draws you into like inside the tent where

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Speaker 2: blizzard's going and one guy's nose is falling off because

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Speaker 2: it's so frost bit, and everybody's trying to keep their

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Speaker 2: spirits up kind of thing. Like he really, it's a

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Speaker 2: really moving journal. For sure.

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Speaker 1: There's another one. And I never knew how to pronounce

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Speaker 1: his name A nice nin But I finally, do they

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Speaker 1: listen to who the men? On YouTube? Yeah? You ever

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Speaker 1: listen to that guy? Yes, today we will learn to

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Speaker 1: pronounce the name. Who is that a real person?

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Speaker 2: I don't know anymore, No one knows anymore.

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Speaker 1: I gotta figure that out. That'd be a good short stuff.

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Speaker 1: Maybe even who's real? Who is that person?

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Speaker 2: Okay? Who are these people?

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll do it as Jerry Seinfelcker. Anyway, he said,

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Speaker 1: it was pronounced a nice nin. And this was the

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Speaker 1: course of very famous diary that she kept from age

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Speaker 1: eleven until and this is nineteen fourteen until she died

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven. And it was noteworthy and that

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Speaker 1: it was very sort of body stuff for the time.

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Speaker 1: She talked very personally about, you know, sort of romantic

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Speaker 1: escapades that people did not talk about at the time.

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Speaker 1: It was published in sixty six like a sanitized version

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Speaker 1: and was a big hit with the ladies largely, and

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Speaker 1: then she said, hey, after I die, why don't you

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Speaker 1: publish the full and uncensored version.

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Speaker 2: But even the sanitized version was like, I've been ing

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Speaker 2: a double life. I've been having this affair. I'm married

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Speaker 2: to two guys. I've split my life between New York

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Speaker 2: and Los Angeles, and my husband doesn't know, like just

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Speaker 2: all sorts of stuff. And she purposely published them while

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Speaker 2: she was alive. And I mean, that's a tremendous amount

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Speaker 2: of risk that she took on. She ended up becoming

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Speaker 2: a feminist icon, like basically overnight as a.

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Speaker 1: Result, another icon. You can't talk about diaries without talking

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Speaker 1: about Anne Frank. And this is something that I never knew. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: if you know, we'll tell you who Ann Frank is,

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Speaker 1: because I always think everyone knows, even because it's the

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Speaker 1: second most widely read book in the world after the Bible.

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Speaker 1: But Anne Frank wrote a diary between nineteen forty two

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Speaker 1: and nineteen forty four as a teenager, started at thirteen

395
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Speaker 1: hiding from the Nazis with her family and wrote this diary.

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Speaker 1: The thing I never knew is that she had planned

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Speaker 1: to publish it. As the story goes, she was inspired

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Speaker 1: by a radio transmission in nineteen forty four from the

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Speaker 1: Dutch government that said, hey, collect this and put it

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Speaker 1: on paper. All this everyday material about Nazi occupation, like

401
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: write it down so people know. And so she did

402
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Speaker 1: that and like rewrote it with the aim of publishing

403
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Speaker 1: it before she was captured.

404
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so her original diaries considered diary A. Like there's

405
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Speaker 2: entire people have written theses on parts of this stuff.

406
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Speaker 2: So the first one's Diary A, the one that she

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Speaker 2: rewrote intended for publication, that's considered Diary B. And her

408
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Speaker 2: father Auto, the only one who survived the Nazi occupation

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Speaker 2: in the Netherlands of the family because they were found

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Speaker 2: out by the Gestapo and taken to concentration camps, which

411
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Speaker 2: is where Anne Frank was murdered as a girl. Still,

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Speaker 2: she would have been maybe fifteen or sixteen at the time.

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Speaker 2: Auto survived and he was given her journals and basically

414
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Speaker 2: had them put together journal Diary A and Diary B

415
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Speaker 2: to kind of create like a a version of it

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Speaker 2: for public consumption. And after he died, they published the

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Speaker 2: whole thing, and that's considered Diary C. And like you said,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's probably the second most read book in

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Speaker 2: the entire world after the Bible, and for good reason too.

420
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Speaker 2: I mean, like this the insight into history that it

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Speaker 2: gives is just amazing and unparalleled. But also there's a

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Speaker 2: poet named John Berryman who put it like this. He

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Speaker 2: said that the book is about the conversion of a

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Speaker 2: child into a person, and Frank's going through this conversion

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Speaker 2: from age thirteen to fifteen. Big big difference in ages.

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Speaker 2: Right there, thirteen to fifteen, A lot happened. Yeah, and

427
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Speaker 2: she's doing it hidden away in an attic in the Netherlands,

428
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Speaker 2: hiding out from the Nazi, hiding for her life.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been to the an Frank House?

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Speaker 2: No?

431
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: I haven't you ever been to Amsterdam? Yes?

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Speaker 2: Okay, make me feel bad, though, why don't you?

433
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Speaker 1: No, you shouldn't feel bad. I've been there a few times,

434
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Speaker 1: and I went once. I didn't go two times.

435
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 2: Well, at least she went once, though. I don't even

436
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 2: have that to boast about. But I would like to

437
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: go though. I mean, I can't imagine how moving that

438
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 2: place is.

439
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

440
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 2: So those are some famous examples of famous journals. I

441
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 2: guess you want to take another break and talk about

442
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: why people might write journals in the first place.

443
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's another earliest break. But it aligns nicely.

444
00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 2: Okay, So, Chuck, there's all sorts of reasons to write

445
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: in your journal, whether you're talking about limestone being delivered

446
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 2: to build a pyramid, or being enslaved in the navy

447
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: yards or being occupied by the Confederate Army. People have

448
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: been doing it for centuries and centuries and centuries without

449
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: any real intention to do anything other than get their

450
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: thoughts out on paper. And it wasn't until the nineteen

451
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: sixties that psychotherapists were like, you know, there's something to that.

452
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: People are putting their internal lives out into written form.

453
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 2: They're getting out of their minds and into the world.

454
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: There has to be some therapy to benefit to that.

455
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 2: And a therapist named Ira Progoff came up with what

456
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: it's called intensive journaling.

457
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like you said, it was in nineteen sixties,

458
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: and his version it was basically a notebook like a

459
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: three ring binder, with color coded sections about topically arranged

460
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: thematically arranged. It could be like dream recording your dreams,

461
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about again a little bit later, could

462
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: have been just daily life stuff. It could be very like, hey,

463
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: write about a big event in your life, and we'll

464
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about trauma journaling later. Because

465
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: that can be very valuable and painful, I imagine. But

466
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: basically it's all about like almost like a meditation and

467
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: allowing things that were important to you or related to

468
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: you at different points of your life to come to

469
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: the forefront of your mind and just sort of write

470
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 1: out through the pin onto the paper or through your

471
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: fingis onto the keyboard.

472
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, you sit there for a few minutes reflecting

473
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: on the topic you've decided to focus on for that

474
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 2: journal entry. Then you write it, then you read what

475
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: you just wrote, and then you write your feelings about

476
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 2: writing it and then reading it.

477
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: That's got to be helpful, got to.

478
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: Be And that's the point of all this. Like we're

479
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: going to get into some pretty deep bs here eventually.

480
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: But the upshot of it is there's a very very

481
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 2: little chance that it will be in any way harmful

482
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 2: and possibly very beneficial, and that it could be.

483
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: Difficult, yes, but that doesn't mean harmful.

484
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 2: Right, And that that alone makes it worth at least

485
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: giving it a shot. And if it works for you, great,

486
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: It doesn't work for you, then you gave it a try.

487
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's another guy named James Pinnabaker from Texas University

488
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: of Texas Austin. He's a psychologist that did studies on

489
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: what he called expressive writing. Been doing this since the eighties,

490
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: And he said, you know where I found or where

491
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: he found it helpful was when you would just start

492
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: out with like very disjointed sort of raw feelings and

493
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: things and then transform that into a story and into

494
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: a narrative. And the process of taking like a difficult experience,

495
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: maybe just writing down the eight feelings you had about it,

496
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: and then that gets a little more detailed and more

497
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: detailed until you've turned it into a story can help

498
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: you handle that stuff more easily and help you live

499
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: with it.

500
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's actually studies to back this up. His

501
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: whole thing is like, you don't need to journal every day.

502
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: If you do, fine, that's great. But he found that

503
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: just one fifteen to thirty minute session of writing about

504
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: a difficult or traumatic experience can help relieve not just

505
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: psychological symptoms, but physiological symptoms as well, and that a

506
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,479
Speaker 2: lot of studies have found that if you do like

507
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: three to five for fifteen to thirty minute sessions writing

508
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: about the same experience, it can really help work past

509
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: trauma that you've been carrying around. It's pretty amazing just

510
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: writing about it.

511
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, some of the things they found in studies, a

512
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: short term increase in distress or negative mood. That's what

513
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: I was talking about, Like, it may be difficult in

514
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: the moment, you know, bringing up these bad memories, but

515
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: it pays off in the long run. Evidence of improvements

516
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: in depressive systems, long term and emotional well being. Benefits

517
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: to physical health like lower blood pressure, better lung function,

518
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: less illness, less doctor visits, better immune system, more antibodies.

519
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: Pretty neat, pretty amazing.

520
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they think that it's just by getting this

521
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: thing out of your working memory, essentially, by documenting on paper,

522
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about remembering or thinking about it,

523
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: ruminating about it anymore. You put it out there, and

524
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: that that alone can lower your stress levels and your

525
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: immune system can kick back in to higher gear again.

526
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think he's the guy that really stressed, Like,

527
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: do it how you do it? If you want to

528
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: write it with a pen, fine, you can put it

529
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: in your phone, don't and don't worry about like writing well,

530
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: and don't worry about being fair even like you're doing

531
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: this for you, you're not doing this for publication, So

532
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: write about how you really feel, even if it's a

533
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: very selfish thing in the moment, and try and really

534
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: bring up a lot of sensory details and you know,

535
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: deep emotional, physical, sometimes feelings that you had at the

536
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: moment of this trauma. And be careful as you're doing it.

537
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: It's not like a therapy replacement, but ideally to be

538
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: used in conjunction with therapy.

539
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: Remember in our meditat Now our mindfulness episode where we

540
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: talked about some people who engage in mindfulness activities like

541
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: find that there they freak out because they accidentally uncovered

542
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: trauma and they weren't prepared right, Pennebaker kind of warns

543
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: about the same thing. He says that there's too soon

544
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 2: for journaling. It can be that with that potent and

545
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: powerful that if you if it's if it follows too

546
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: closely after the actual traumatic event, it can be too

547
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: hard on you, and that you should have at least

548
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: some distance of time. And probably the more you know,

549
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: for a seriously traumatic event, you probably want to do

550
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: this under the advisement of a therapist. Don't necessarily try

551
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: to do it on yourself. So it's probably not going

552
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 2: to harm you, but the potential is there enough that

553
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: if this is, you could probably only be the only

554
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: judge for yourself. Right, this is so weighty that it

555
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: could break you mentally. You should probably talk to somebody

556
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: first about how to do it correctly or when to

557
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: do it.

558
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agree. A gratitude journal is something that I

559
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: had never really heard of.

560
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: Really.

561
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I never heard of though I've heard about

562
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: course gratitude and thankful and ruminating on that stuff, but

563
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: like actually writing it down a list or a journal

564
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: is a pretty popular thing that I'm a big dummy

565
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: for not knowing, because they've even done a meta analysis

566
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: and so that means there's a lot of studies on it.

567
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, Japanese researchers did this analysis and

568
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: they found that it really helps with stress and depression

569
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: if you do it at least like six times, it

570
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: said over the course of a study. I'm not sure

571
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: what timeframe that is, but basically, like you know, it

572
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: can take a lot of forms. Noticing generosity that you

573
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: see walking around in the world, things that you're just

574
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: thankful for. It can help lead to you expressing gratitude

575
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: and thanks to others, and you can also note that,

576
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: but it's you know, sort of a version of what's

577
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: called positive affect journaling, which is basically focusing on positive

578
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: things and gratitude and ideally that's going to increase your

579
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: well being. And then it seems like it would.

580
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And they also say you want to

581
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: be very detailed, you want to typically focus on people,

582
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: not necessarily things that you're grateful for, although you can

583
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,959
Speaker 2: focus on that, and that it's much better to focus

584
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: on a single topic rather than you know, list off

585
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: five things like I'm grateful for this, this, and this.

586
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: More like I'm grateful for this and this is why

587
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 2: is much more helpful as far as gratitude journals go.

588
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: I like that. Also, going back to the trauma things

589
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: just real quick, there was a twenty sixteen study by

590
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: a researcher named g. Jung Park, and they found that

591
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: people who use expressive journaling, which is writing about your

592
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: experience getting it out in those fifteen to thirty minute sessions,

593
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: they showed more self distance after journaling. And self distance

594
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: is actually it's a psychological term. It's a concept where

595
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: you are more detached emotionally from an event that you experienced,

596
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: and that by being able to distance yourself from it.

597
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: You're able to cope with it much easier, process it

598
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: better than when you're super all up in it and

599
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 2: it's overwhelming you. And they found that self distancing can

600
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 2: be helped along by journaling about the event. Yeah.

601
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's sort of that time heals wounds things,

602
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: And I think the idea here is it can help

603
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: sort of speed up that process, speed up that time.

604
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it helps you get things off your chest.

605
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: It helps you clarify your thinking. And one other thing

606
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 2: that it really helps you do is see other people's perspectives.

607
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 1: And I imagine you may be able to put stuff

608
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: down on paper in private that you might not even

609
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: tell a therapist that you think that you can be

610
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: completely open to you know.

611
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: Yes, ideally that you are sharing that level of openness

612
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: with your with your journal diary. That's from what I

613
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: can tell. The more you're able to do that, the

614
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: healthier it could conceivably be. Although I don't know if

615
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: you said it or not, but Pennebaker says, maybe you

616
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: don't want to journal every day because that can actually

617
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: potentially make you ruminate more on negative stuff because you're talking.

618
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: Like you said that actually did. I there are several

619
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: truths in your life. There is the truth you tell

620
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: your therapist, there's the truth you tell your doctor, and

621
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: then there's only one real truth, and that's the truth

622
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: that you tell yourself. Probably yeah, when no one else

623
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: knows anything, even the closest people in your life, I

624
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: think the truth you tell yourself is probably the truest thing.

625
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: You can also delude yourself though, too.

626
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: Oh well no, no, that's a completely different thing.

627
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: Oh oh sorry I brought that up.

628
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: No, you can lie to yourself. But uh, I think

629
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: that I don't know. That's just an opinion of mine,

630
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: you know, sure, And that's why I think that journaling

631
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: very privately could be like a really there thing.

632
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: For sure. It seems like, yeah, that's the thing when

633
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: I said we were going to wait into BS, Like,

634
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people out there who have tried

635
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: to qualify this, quantify it. Hr people who are like,

636
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: maybe we should get all the employees to journal every day.

637
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: It's like this thing may work. So everybody's turned it

638
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 2: into a thing that you have to do, and if not,

639
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: then you're not you're not trying to achieve your goals,

640
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: and you're you're not living your best life or whatever.

641
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: It's it's just it's meant to be one of those

642
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: things that like, if it helps you, great, If it doesn't,

643
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: move on, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be this

644
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: thing that everybody has to do and benefit from in

645
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: exactly the same way.

646
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. I have a fun small collection of two to

647
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: three journal entries from various points in my Life's nice

648
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: where I would say I'm going to start doing this, man,

649
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 1: because I'd do something like this, or a teacher would

650
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: talk about it, and then all right, here we go,

651
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: and a few days then I stopped doing. Yeah.

652
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so easy to not do anymore.

653
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: I did have. I think the longest one I ever

654
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: kept was for one full quarter when we were in quarters.

655
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: Back then in college, I had a play writing class

656
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: I took, and my playwriting teacher had us as part

657
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: of the class, so it wasn't optional to do what

658
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: he called a commonplace journal, and that was just not

659
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: even your thoughts and emotions, just more in the as

660
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: a writer might do, like things you notice and things

661
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: that might inspire you in this in that commonplace. Then Okay,

662
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: so I did that for a quarter, but I don't

663
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: think I have that one. That's my biggest, most robust one,

664
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: and it's lost to time.

665
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: Poor guy.

666
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: There are all kinds of journals that have become popular

667
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: as far as like, oh, this person says this is

668
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: a very good way to do it. The artist way,

669
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: a self help book from ninety two by Julia Cameron,

670
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: talked about morning pages. So you just sort of and

671
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: this is based on the Jungian idea that you're ego

672
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 1: defense doesn't wake up until for forty five minutes after

673
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: you wake up.

674
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I look that up, and I don't think that's

675
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: actually a thing that you never said.

676
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, so did Julia Cameron, Like, I mean,

677
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: it is a self help book, right, anyway, that's the idea,

678
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: at least that sounds like it may or it may

679
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: not be true. But the whole idea is you do

680
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: this first thing in the morning, sort of stream of

681
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: consciousness style to get just sort of drain out your

682
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: brain of like stuff that might plague you throughout the

683
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: day later.

684
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, the point isn't to just write anything like inspirational

685
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: or good or where just to get it out like

686
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: you were saying, Yeah, that's a good example of what

687
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: I was talking about with the BS, like does it

688
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: have to be based on a Jungian idea? And that

689
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: is exactly forty five minutes. It's just like, hey, this works,

690
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 2: you guys should give it a try. Don't try to

691
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: write anything worth while. Just get out the crud that's

692
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: going to plague you for the rest of the day.

693
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: Why can't people present ideas like that anymore?

694
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, just say do it when you're sweepy. That

695
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: seems to work.

696
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

697
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you got to bring young into this?

698
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: It's like, don't drag me into this just because you

699
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 2: use the word ego.

700
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: We talked about gratitude journals. What are bullet journals?

701
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 2: Theories are well, they were created by a digital designer

702
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: named right Carol, great digital designer name back in twenty thirteen,

703
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 2: and they're much more real world focused, like to do lists, calendars.

704
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: It seems like a life system exactly.

705
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is in written form, and so

706
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: whatever you need to help you, like you're trying to

707
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: keep up with the meals you're eating for the week,

708
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 2: or the exercise you're doing, or the chores you have

709
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: to do or whatever you have. These different journals all

710
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: within this kind of bullet journal, these different sections or

711
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: segments to it that are typically laid out over time

712
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 2: a week, a month or something like that, or by section,

713
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: and people decorate them in very pretty ways.

714
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: Well, and it's also can be though not literally just uh,

715
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: things I have to get accomplished today, but like like

716
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: go to the store or go to this appointment, but

717
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 1: things you want to accomplish is in a holistic way,

718
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 1: like today I'm gonna I'm gonna really work on either

719
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: gratitude or thankfulness or empathy or something like that.

720
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 2: Right, here's I got to check the box next to empathy,

721
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: I empathize today.

722
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: Check that sounded slightly cynical. Dream journals Yeah, well I

723
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: don't do those either, no.

724
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: But so there are formal interpretation systems of dreams, like

725
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: if your tooth fall out, you're worried about your looks

726
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: or something like that. Right, those are clearly obviously just

727
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 2: totally wrong. But there is a usefulness to dream journals

728
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: in that it's it's very much like getting your thoughts

729
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: out with a with typical journaling. With dream journals, you're

730
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: recording the thoughts that you got out while you were

731
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: a dream before they you know, disappear, you know, in

732
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 2: that forty five minutes before your ego defenses go up, right.

733
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 2: But that's that's kind of the point of dream journal,

734
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: And you're almost visiting or you're recording these visits to

735
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: the other parts of your mind that you can't typically access,

736
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 2: so you're just jotting down what happened, and it can

737
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 2: affect your waking life in ways. I read a New

738
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: York Times letter from somebody who suggested doing this, and

739
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: they were, like, it makes when I dream about somebody

740
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: in a certain way, when I see them the next time,

741
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 2: I noticed those qualities about them. So like the dreams,

742
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: logging the dreams affects how they navigate waking life, which

743
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: sounds pretty neat.

744
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: I mean that sounds like the most fun one. Yeah,

745
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: just for no other reason than to go back and

746
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: read about fun weird dreams years later. Exactly, have you

747
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: ever woken up, uh, have you ever been like mad

748
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: at you me in a dream and woken up a

749
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: little bit like feeling a little mad, even though that's

750
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 1: totally unfairing.

751
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: No, not that specific thing, but I have been out

752
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: of works in many different ways from dreams, and it

753
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: takes a little while, because I mean, think about the

754
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: same neurochemicals are being released in your brain whether you're

755
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: awake or you're asleep while you're experiencing that, and yeah,

756
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: if they happen to still be flooding your brain when

757
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: you wake up, you're still gonna be feeling that way,

758
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: you know.

759
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Emily and I both had dreams where like one

760
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: of us did something to the other in sallity and

761
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: you wake up and you know it's unreasonable, and you

762
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: try to shake up. You're like, I'm sorry, I'm just

763
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: a little mad at you for my dream, and then

764
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: we laugh and talk about how unfair that is.

765
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: That happens to me in normal life too. With TV shows, like, uh,

766
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: they'll go to commercial break, you know, when you're watching

767
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: regular TV h and I'll be like, why am I

768
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: so like tense right now or upset? And I'll realize

769
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: it's because I just watched the kid get kidnapped on

770
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: Law and Order, and like that sensation is carried over

771
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 2: into the commercial break and now I'm suddenly paying attention

772
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: to it and wondering why I feel that way.

773
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,439
Speaker 1: Uh, that's fun. We were in New York one time

774
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: and a similarly, we were we were leaving, like kind

775
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: of finishing up at our table, and the waiter came

776
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: over and says like, hey, you guys are about done right,

777
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: because someone you know is waiting to be seated, like

778
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: in a really nice way. We're like, yeah, yeah, we're

779
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: getting out of here. You can go go ahead and

780
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: bring him over or whatever. And uh, it was the

781
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: actor from that TV show The Killing, the Billy Campbell.

782
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 1: That didn't sound right, but maybe it is. I thought

783
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: he was like Swedish or something.

784
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: There was an original Swedish version of The Killing.

785
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: Uh is that what I watched?

786
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: I don't know where the titles.

787
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: Billy Kimball's the other he is in that show. But

788
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: I was talking about Joel Kineman.

789
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: Is he the the congressman or the city councilman.

790
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: No, he was. He is Swedish, actually Swedish American. He

791
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: he was the partner.

792
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: That's Billy Campbell.

793
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,919
Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to get too involved here because

794
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to give anything away, but uh, Keneman

795
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 1: was for sure her partner.

796
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I guess I only made a past

797
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:05,479
Speaker 2: season two.

798
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: Anyway, it was him and it was his TV show

799
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 1: and he had again I don't want to give anyway,

800
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 1: but he had just done he had been a bad

801
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: person in that week's episode, and I kind of scowled

802
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: and I was like you. I was like, I'm so

803
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: mad at you. And he was like, I'm sorry, bro.

804
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: He was like everybody he said on the streets this

805
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: week has been so rough. He was like, I'm so sorry.

806
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: And I was like, that's really kind of funny.

807
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: Actually, So you might be thinking of Peter Sarsgard, he

808
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: was in it.

809
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: No, I mean I'm thinking about Joel Caky.

810
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 2: So we're talking about the same person. I thought his

811
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: name was Billy Campbell. Billy Campbell was the or the

812
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: city councilman.

813
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's older, he's like in his sixties, okay, and

814
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 1: he played he was the rocketeer.

815
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,439
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't know that. I never saw that movie.

816
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: It just looked creepy an art deco.

817
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: But I mean, I mean cop partner.

818
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: Yes, I know what you're talking about.

819
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, Joe Kinneman was the cop partner, right, Okay.

820
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about the same person. I just had

821
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: the name wrong. You had the name right. Is that

822
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 2: what you want to hear? Is that what you're holding

823
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 2: out for here.

824
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: I'm not holding out for anything.

825
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: You got anything else about journaling or diaries?

826
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: Uh?

827
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: Nah, Well, I think I speak for us all when

828
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 2: I say that we hope you find that quarter journal.

829
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: What was it called? The what journal?

830
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: The commonplace note.

831
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: Common place notebook? What a great name. Yeah, it seems

832
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: like something that would be stitched together with like fabric

833
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 2: and twine. You know, there's like a mushroom on it.

834
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sure, Chuck said, yeh.

835
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 2: Sure, everybody. That means it's time for a listener mail.

836
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to call this things that we have recommended.

837
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: Did I read this? I don't think I did. I'll

838
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 1: read it again. Hey guys, my name is Evan Whitby

839
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: from Hendersonville, North Carolina. It's kind of a long one,

840
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: but I'll just say that Evan really loves the show

841
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: and it's meant a lot to him through his life.

842
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: In one of the biggest ways that it means a

843
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: lot is the recommendations movie recommendations that Evan has gotten

844
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: from us over the years. Sometimes it's a plug or

845
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: just comes up in conversation, but by this point I

846
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: trust your taste a lot, so I check most of

847
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: them out and then list a bunch of examples what

848
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,439
Speaker 1: we do in the Shadows, Reservation Dogs, Larry Sanders Show,

849
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: Nate Bargatzi's stand up Eyes Wide Shut, just to name

850
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: a few that I particularly liked. And I just finished

851
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: watching both seasons of Dick Town, which was is John

852
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: Hodgmanshow David David Reese's show. Yeah, and you were right

853
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: and that it's the perfect length to finish it all

854
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: in one sitting. And as a native North Carolinian who

855
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: has lived all around the state my whole life, I

856
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 1: found it particularly funny. Go wolf Pack. I look forward

857
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: to many more lessons and many more laughs thanks to

858
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: the whole team. One Love Evan.

859
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: That's awesome. That is so much better than cheers, Evan.

860
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: Thank you for that.

861
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: I like it.

862
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: If you want to be like Evan and say hey,

863
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 2: I really like this thing you guys recommended, or conversely,

864
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 2: you can say, hey, I really like this thing you

865
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: guys might not know about, so I want to recommend

866
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,479
Speaker 2: it to you. We are always open for both of those.

867
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: You can send it in an email via One Love

868
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 2: to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

869
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

870
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: more podcasts My heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

871
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.