WEBVTT - Epiphany — Libby Caswell E8 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:03.640 Originals. 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:09.360 This is an iHeart original. This story can be hard 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:14.400 to hear. There's detailed talk of suicide and violence, but 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.239 we think it's important not to gloss over the reality 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:21.439 of what happened to Libby Caswell. Please take care while listening. 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:29.800 People don't understand why survivors just don't leave. When you're 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:35.479 in love with an abuser, your logic changes to a 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.320 point where abuse is all that you know, it's all 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:43.559 that you think about, it's all that you justify. I 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:47.760 would have done anything to make my abuser happy. His 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:52.599 happiness was the most important thing to me on the planet. 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:58.560 He was like the most kind, generous, charming young man 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:01.680 everyone in loved time, life, family, my friends, everyone. 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.200 I was one of those, like fiercely independent women, like 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:07.280 no man's ever going to put his hands on me, 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:11.440 and then that situation came to me directly. 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:16.880 Libby will never be able to share her experience of 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.640 domestic violence with us, but everything I've learned about what 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.680 she went through, it's painfully familiar to me. And that's 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.120 because over the years, I've talked to dozens of other 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:33.640 women victims whose stories are remarkably similar to Libby's. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.319 He was controlling, but at that time I was really young, 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:45.520 and I kind of romanticize the control and the extreme jealousy. 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.440 It was very sporadic at the beginning. There was other 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.840 behaviors that probably should have been a red flag. I thought, like, 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.680 he's got a temper, he can be really mean, but 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:00.760 I didn't see it as abuse. At that time. 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:06.920 He was always angry. He would punch walls or punch trees, 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.960 or slam doors and punch the bed to create an 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:17.400 environment of physical intimidation threat. The first time I hit 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:19.160 me was a punch whilst air. 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:21.359 It was punching my gut and I remember I thought 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:22.480 in my head, I'm dying. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.320 I remember I fell to my knees. It took my 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:26.480 wile to grass my air. 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:31.440 But it was the shock because it's those seconds feel horrible. 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:37.640 The first time that I experienced my ex husband, the 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.480 father and my kids, put his sons around my neck. 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.160 I was about seventeen years old when he was eighteen. 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:52.000 The first time I experienced strangeration was on my thirtieth birthday. 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.560 And he looked at me directly and put his hands 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:59.480 around my neck. And he is a pretty tall guy, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.640 around six sixty one and his big hands, so it 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.520 only took him one hand to just go around. 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.600 My whole neck, and he grabbed me by my throat 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.480 and slammed me against the garage and then he slammed 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:16.680 me on the ground and cracked my head open. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:25.880 I just was in shock, and I was scared he. 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.240 Would do it to the point before killing me. It 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.920 was more of proving a point. I'm the boss. 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.560 You listen to me, you obeyed to me, and then 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:36.160 release you. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.680 He was, I'm so sorry about what happened. I didn't 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:45.880 mean to hurt you. I was just really jealous. And 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.920 that's how the cycle stayed, right, It's just forgive and 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.000 it's not going to happen again. I always wanted to 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.320 believe that that was not gonna happen again. 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.120 I felt so incredibly alone. 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.280 I never told anyone what had happened. 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:05.360 And it was shameful too. 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:11.440 Right, just like, oh my gosh, I have this wonderful, charming, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:16.200 handsome boyfriend. Why is people going to say? 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.719 And I got to the point that he was strangling 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.960 me and I was welcoming it. I was like, please 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.680 just and kill me, you know, I just fucking kill me. 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:34.159 I And that really, really was what kind of kicked 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.400 my husband a gear that scared me that I was 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:42.440 welcoming it. And I had gotten so desperate and wanted 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:44.799 out of that situation so badly that I just wanted 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:45.400 him to kill me. 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.680 I always had the hope that he was going to change, initially, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.760 and then that hope turning to fear of laving him. 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.000 And at that point it probably was my third or 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:00.760 fourth time trying to leave the relationship. 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:05.520 The only reason I left really was because I wouldn't 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.520 be here today if I had said, he would have 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:10.240 killed me. I'm sure of it. 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.960 From iHeart Podcasts, I'm Melissa Jeldson, and this is what 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.160 happened to Libby Caswell. 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.120 That we happened. Tell me again, I don't know what. 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.000 I mean with nobody on seen to tell him what happened. 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.640 And it was crying, and I said, and I was like, man, 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:53.279 what happened. 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:55.040 If they were just going back and got the video, 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:56.280 one or two things would happened. 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.159 Something that happened, Things got out of control. 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:10.880 It's a fus you wouldn't know. So what. 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.400 What had happened is we were at the scene. 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:20.599 But that actually happened to her, and I have pictures 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.640 of it. She didn't ever tell me of the extent 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.200 of all the things that happened. 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.600 I don't honestly know what happened. 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:28.279 Nobody wants to believed that should happened. 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.839 I shouldn't, fuck though, but it is what it is. 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:31.839 That is what happened. 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.600 And how many times do you estimate that this happened 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:35.400 while you knew her? 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.280 I am so sorry for what happened. 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.359 When I've seen that story, when I was bored, I 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.560 really was. That's not what happened. There could be a thousand. 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.520 Maybe I should should that didn't what happened? 0:06:52.640 --> 0:07:15.800 R How do you even tell a child this story 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.360 when they ask what happened to my mother? 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.679 Chapter eight, Epiphany. 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:30.880 There's somewhere between three to five million abused women every year. 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.640 This is Jackie Campbell, a pioneering researcher in the field 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:36.760 of domestic violence. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.600 Even though we know prior domestic violence is the biggest 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.559 risk factor for women being murdered by their partner, there's 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:49.880 only about twelve hundred women twelve hundred to fifteen hundred 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:55.280 that get murdered every year. That's a tiny, tiny fraction 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.480 of all of the abused women and That's why it's 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.360 important to figure out what are the characteristics of that 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:09.240 abuse of relationship that you say, Ah, that's dangerous. The 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:14.920 danger assessment is meant for those women. Thirty eight years ago, 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:19.640 Campbell created the Danger Assessment Tool. It's essentially a series 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:23.400 of questions to help victims of abuse better understand the 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.160 danger their partner poses to them. It's based on research 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:31.080 into known risk factors for lethal domestic violence. Has the 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:35.840 physical violence increased in severity or frequency? Has he ever 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.679 forced you to have sex when you did not wish 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:42.599 to do so? Does he ever try to choke, strangle, 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:47.040 or cut off your breathing? Does he use illegal drugs? 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:49.439 Does he control most. 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.760 Campbell's goal was that someone a social worker or a 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.840 healthcare provider, or a police officer responding to a domestic 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:00.600 violence call could use the questions to a sess how 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.120 much danger a victim was in and intervene before it 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.319 was too late. The tool is now used by law 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.960 enforcement in dozens of states as a proactive approach to 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:16.280 reducing domestic violence homicides. As far as I can tell, 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:21.200 Libby was never given a danger assessment. No professional ever 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.040 asked Libby questions about the increasing level of abuse she 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.400 was dealing with, about the types of abuse she endured 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.240 or the threats that went along with it. But what 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.880 seems clear to me is that Libby's relationship with Devon 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:42.800 was extremely dangerous. Instead of being labeled uncooperative or a nuisance. 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.880 What if Libby had been given this assessment? Would it 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.480 have changed how IPD interacted with her and her family? 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.719 Would it have changed her own behavior knowing just how 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.640 much danger she was in. Cindy had never heard of 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:02.520 the danger assessment, but after she began working with Alliance 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.280 for Hope, she was introduced to Jackie Campbell, and one 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.200 day she sat down with her to do the assessment 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:10.319 on Libby's behalf. 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.280 She said she was going to ask me a series 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.360 of questions, answered them to the best of my knowledge, 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.200 and so that's what I did. 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.480 Before Campbell gave Cindy the results, she explained how the 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:22.640 assessment is scored. 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:27.280 Zero to eight is called variable danger. That's the lowest level, 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.600 but we never say there's no danger and domestic violence. 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:35.240 Any domestic vious situation could escalate to a homicide. The 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:40.680 second level is eight to thirteen, which is called increased danger. 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:46.680 Fourteen to seventeen is severe danger and then eighteen or 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:52.920 more is extreme danger. So she got a thirty six. 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:59.640 This is I think the highest score I've ever gotten 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:04.280 on danger assessment. The absolute highest score you can get 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.880 on it is thirty nine. I don't think I've ever 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.400 seen that. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.000 That almost made me faint. 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:12.960 I'm serious. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.440 It also made me think if any person involved in 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:21.120 her case in the court system, if any one of 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.160 them would have offered up an assessment, could that have 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.240 helped her? Would she be alive today? And so in 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.800 my mind I thought, why don't they know about this? 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.920 Why haven't I heard about this? Why is this a secret? 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.000 It feels like a secret. 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.640 This was a bit of an AHA moment for Cindy. 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.960 I understood from our many conversations that beyond wanting to 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.800 discover the truth of what happened to Libby in the 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.439 motel room that day, Cindy was looking for more answers, 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.960 deeper answers about why things went so wrong for Libby 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.880 and where they could have gone differently years for her death. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:06.120 Jackie Campbell's danger assessment confirmed what Cindy felt in her 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.560 gut that Libby had been failed by a system that 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.520 was supposed to support her. It also got Cindy thinking 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:18.160 about better ways to help victims of domestic violence like Libby, 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.720 because around this time, Cindy was also becoming something of 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:27.000 an advocate. She told me she wanted IPD to begin 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:31.640 using the danger assessment with domestic violence victims, and also 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.000 for the city to rescind the nuisance law that had 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.400 been used to penalize her family all those years earlier. 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:47.040 Since I've learned so many things about domestic violence, I 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.800 am ready to try to get the right ears to listen. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:59.160 Hopefully our state and city officials will start to recognize 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:00.320 how important that is. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.240 In October twenty twenty two, Cindy and I both traveled 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.720 to Colorado to attend a conference called Getting Away with Murder. 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.080 It was an opportunity for law enforcement from around the 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.880 country to learn how to spot staged crime scenes and 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:25.920 strategies to prosecute them. Cindy had been invited by Casey Gwynn, 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.000 an Alliance for Hope, to speak about Libby's case. 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.320 Cindy orw sure w love. 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.240 I feel less nervous by my chair. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.000 Hi, I'm Mindia as well. 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:44.599 My daughter was Libby Wiswell, and she was a beautiful, young, twenty. 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:45.520 One year old old. 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.040 In Colorado. I got to watch firsthand as Cindy tested 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.319 out her new role as an advocate, telling the large 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.760 crowd details of the most difficult experience of her life, 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.360 all in the hopes that it would someday be useful. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:00.720 That's my goal. 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:06.719 I would love for the police department to really examine 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.640 a situation and ask questions to the family. We were 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:16.600 never asked anything, no questions. We tried to offer information, 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:21.040 and really they just had their minds made up. 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.320 So anyway, thank you for listening. 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.640 During one of the sessions, photos from the crime scene 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:36.520 were projected on a massive screen. I was sitting next 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.560 to Cindy at a long table, and I watched as 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.960 she kept her eyes averted trained on the floor to 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.880 avoid seeing her daughter's dead body. I asked her about 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:48.480 it later during a break. 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.000 It's just a lot of different things and have had 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.440 to sit back and kind of process it all day. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.400 I just felt this blue feeling and I didn't know 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:02.000 why I thought it. You know, I talked to myself, 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:06.040 You're okay, take some deep bress, smell a flower, blow 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.200 out the candle. You know, I'd learned that recently. 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.360 In between the panel discussions and events, Cindy and I 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.720 tried to buffer the intensity of the conference with the 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.920 serenity of our surroundings. Situated as we were at the 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.000 base of Rocky Mountain National Park. When the talks became 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.920 too much, we would take quiet walks through the snow. 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.320 Maybe it was just having a moment in nature away 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.760 from Cindy's life and independence, or maybe it was her 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:42.000 growing understanding about her daughter's experience with domestic violence. But 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:46.600 something in Cindy's past came to the surface. One evening 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.720 she mentioned to me that many years ago, long before 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:55.720 Libby was born, her older sister Dietta, was killed by 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.840 her ex husband. I was pretty taken aback to hear this. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.160 In reporting this story, I've interviewed Cindy well over a 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:09.040 dozen times. I've asked her some incredibly personal questions, and 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.840 she's always answered them, no matter how difficult. But not 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.960 once had Dietta's name come up. I didn't press Cindy 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.920 for too many details. At the time, it had been 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.600 an emotional weekend and I could tell it was hard 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.040 for her to talk about her sister. But back up 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.400 my computer, I did some googling and found a newspaper 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.840 story from nineteen eighty seven with the headline six die 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:40.000 in murder suicide. Here's what happened. One week after Dietta Knight, 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:45.120 who was just twenty seven, divorced her husband Virgil, he 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.920 came to her home and shot and killed her and 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.080 their two young sons. He also killed a friend Dietta 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.040 had been hanging out with earlier in the evening and 0:16:55.080 --> 0:17:00.320 the friend's boyfriend. He then took his own life. At 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.359 the date on the article, I realized it happened almost 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:11.600 exactly thirty years to the day before Libby's death. And 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.439 there was more. As our time in Colorado went on, 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.719 Cindy continued to open up to me about the cycle 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:24.520 of domestic violence, not just within her family, but within 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:25.960 her own marriage too. 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:33.240 You know, Virgil did it to my sister, and then 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.919 Devin did it too Ruby, and of course my husband 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:37.960 verbally abused me. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.920 Cindy told me that her husband, Robert, was never physically abusive, 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.000 but had a habit of raising his voice, calling her names, 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.760 making her feel bad about herself. Robert declined to be 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:57.000 interviewed for this podcast. Cindy also told me that like 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.960 Libby liked so many victims. She tried multiple times to 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.439 leave her husband, but faced resistance. 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.840 He took my car keys when I said I was 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.600 going to leave, told me to sit on the bed 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.600 and not to move, and he'd go to work the 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:16.800 next day and I'd throw things in bags and we'd 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:21.480 go to Oklahoma or to my friend. You know. I 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.560 left him at least twice before the third and the 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.320 final were I divorced him. And it was always that 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:33.320 same thing that they talk about, of how the man 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.840 will beg and plead and try to point out all 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.640 the places where he's a good guy. He works every day, 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.640 he works his butt off for us, except he didn't 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.639 use nice language, and so I'd be like, well, and 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.000 he's not hitting me, you know, but really it's a 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.680 or severe punch in the gut some of the words 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:58.320 that are used when someone's verbally abusing you. I kept 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.240 trying to help him, And this is why I think 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.080 Liaby did the same thing with Devin, because she witnessed 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.439 me trying to love her dad through some stuff. And 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.879 so I'm in therapy about that, you know, because I 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.400 feel like I should have gone when they were littler 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.399 after her death. I moved out later that year, twenty eighteen, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.200 and then I never came back. That was like it, 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.320 I think I finally just like it all just kind 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:34.520 of I had an epiphany. It was a wake up time, 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.240 you know, I was. I just kind of was shaken 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.040 and awaken. 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:42.439 By that. 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.440 Over the course of working on this podcast, and even 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:57.160 since the first episode came out, I've been hearing rumors 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:02.320 about Libby's death that could take the investigation in different directions. 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:07.520 I've heard, for example, that people other than Devon were involved, 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.680 nefarious characters who may have been at the sports stadium 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.600 in the day Libby died, and not just random strangers, 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.639 but people in Devon's orbit. I know IPD has heard 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.560 all kinds of rumors too, but as of now, they've 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.280 remained just that. And I actually have a little sympathy 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:32.320 for IPD in this regard, because every rumor I've tried 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.080 to chase down seems to come to a dead end 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:40.680 with someone's drug fueled memory and little else except for one. 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.440 In late twenty twenty two, a witness came forward who 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.119 claims to have seen Devon in a panic at his 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:52.199 dad's house. The day Libby was found, but not at 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:57.160 night in the morning, twelve hours before Devon called nine 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:02.360 one one to report Libby's death. The witness is named Tommy. 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:06.440 He's a friend of Devin's father, Charlie. When I interviewed him, 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.080 he told me he came forward with this information five 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.520 years after Libby's death because it was only then that 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:17.359 he saw a news report about the investigation and learned 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.199 what Devon had been telling police. So what happened in 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.040 Room three nineteen, Libby's boyfriend told police he and Libby 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:27.960 checked into the Sports Stadium hotel around six point thirty 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:28.480 that morning. 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:32.760 When I've seen that story, I was blored. I really was. 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.800 That's not what happened. He had the story straight, but 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.080 the timeframe was roamed. 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.240 Tommy told me he had been visiting Charlie a lot 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:46.240 around this time in late twenty seventeen, helping him in 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:48.400 various ways through a rough patch. 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.960 Charlie was going through kind of a hard time, going 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:54.160 through divors and some other struggle, so I was helping 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:56.359 him out to keep his kid in school so he 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.320 wouldn't get BHS involved or so. 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.760 Before Libby's death. At one of these visits to Charlie's house, 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:07.520 Tommy met Devin and Libby. He saw that they too 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.639 were struggling. He says he lent the money for a 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:15.200 hotel and helped Libby with some car troubles. He also 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.800 made plans with Libby to do more work on her 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:25.680 car that Monday, December eleventh, But when Monday morning rolled around, 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.520 Tommy would learn that there wasn't going to be a 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:30.320 meetup to fix Slippy's car. 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.919 I went to Charlie house pick his son up to 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:37.159 take him to grade school. Devin and a print of 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:41.919 his pulled up in Libby's car, and his stepbrother was 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.000 just coming out of the house to get in a car, 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.560 and Devin stopped her dad to ask him what he 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.000 should do because he woke up and found Libby dead, 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:55.480 hanging in the bathroom. And I remember the exact words 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:57.800 his dad told him. I don't know if I could 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:02.160 say it on air, but there okay, He told him, 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:04.520 I'll tell you what to do. You get your ask 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:07.200 back to the hotel, you call the fucking cops. 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:09.679 And if you were to estimate around what time and. 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.800 Fay was it? Well, since I was there to take 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:18.040 Devin's stepbrother to school, I don't remember what time. Grade 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:23.119 school starts is around eight thirty maybe eight. I'm positive 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:26.240 it was morning time. I'm positive it was on a 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:27.000 Monday morning. 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:31.440 Tommy actually brought this information to the police in December 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:32.360 twenty twenty two. 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.120 Someone give me your name and so that you might 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:37.480 have some information on the Libby. 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:38.160 Kaz Real death. 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:43.040 Steve Schmidley, the lead detective on Libby's case, asked Tommy, 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:43.600 what do he knew? 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:44.919 I know for a fact that he. 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:47.680 Knew she was dead in the morning time. 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:50.840 It was in morning as I seen him over there 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.040 in his dad's That's when he confronted his dad. 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:55.680 Value was in morning time. 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:00.560 Detective Schmidley listens to what Tommy says, tries to clarify 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:02.800 the story and response. 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:04.600 I mean, but I mean there's consistencies for what you're saying. 0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:08.800 But you're saying that this was the morning of it. 0:24:09.480 --> 0:24:09.959 I don't know. 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:15.520 I mean, we got called that evening there roughly around 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:18.320 eight o'clock. If you're convinced that this was that morning, 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:21.840 I'm ninety nine point nine on that. You know, like 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:23.280 I said, it's been a lot of years. 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.320 I kind of was doubt. You know, what if maybe 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:29.639 it was the day after Okay, well, if it was 0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:31.879 the next morning, Devin wouldn't have been there asking his 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:34.560 dad what he should do. You know, I've got no 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:38.159 reason to be no, absolutely be making this No, no, no, no. 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:39.919 I don't think they're making anything up. 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:42.960 I'd like said, there's a lot of consistencies that you're saying, 0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:47.199 you know, but it's just trying to you know, I 0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:47.560 don't know. 0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:49.840 I'm glad that you did come in. 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:52.359 Absolutely, I don't know if this is going to change anything, 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:56.359 because again, unfortunately, at the end of the day, you 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.560 know when when Libby passed, you know, billing people in 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:01.560 the room whom you know are probably going to be 0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:05.040 Devin and Libby. It does appear that she did hang herself. 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:08.240 You know, the family obviously thinks that she was murdered 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:11.879 by Devin. Obviously, if there was enough to charge Devin 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:14.119 with a murder, again, probably aren't been charged. 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:16.160 So obviously there's not enough at. 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:20.679 This point to indicate the Devin and he's denied any wrongdoing. 0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:23.480 Like I said, I'm gonna take a report, right I 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:25.080 got your phone or we need anything. 0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:31.320 If true, Tommy's story is significant because it contradicts the 0:25:31.359 --> 0:25:35.480 time Devin said he discovered Libby's body and raises questions 0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:38.640 about how he spent the day. But as far as 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:42.919 I can tell, IPD doesn't seem alarmed or particularly interested 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:47.119 in this new information. Maybe they don't think Tommy's story 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:51.200 is credible, or it's just too much work to confirm 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:55.080 or deny. Either way, I can't explain the logic or 0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:59.920