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Speaker 1: Originals.

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Speaker 2: This is an iHeart original. This story can be hard

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Speaker 2: to hear. There's detailed talk of suicide and violence, but

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Speaker 2: we think it's important not to gloss over the reality

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Speaker 2: of what happened to Libby Caswell. Please take care while listening.

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Speaker 3: People don't understand why survivors just don't leave. When you're

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Speaker 3: in love with an abuser, your logic changes to a

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Speaker 3: point where abuse is all that you know, it's all

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Speaker 3: that you think about, it's all that you justify. I

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Speaker 3: would have done anything to make my abuser happy. His

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Speaker 3: happiness was the most important thing to me on the planet.

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Speaker 4: He was like the most kind, generous, charming young man

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Speaker 4: everyone in loved time, life, family, my friends, everyone.

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Speaker 5: I was one of those, like fiercely independent women, like

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Speaker 5: no man's ever going to put his hands on me,

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Speaker 5: and then that situation came to me directly.

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Speaker 2: Libby will never be able to share her experience of

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Speaker 2: domestic violence with us, but everything I've learned about what

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Speaker 2: she went through, it's painfully familiar to me. And that's

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Speaker 2: because over the years, I've talked to dozens of other

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Speaker 2: women victims whose stories are remarkably similar to Libby's.

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Speaker 4: He was controlling, but at that time I was really young,

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Speaker 4: and I kind of romanticize the control and the extreme jealousy.

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Speaker 5: It was very sporadic at the beginning. There was other

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Speaker 5: behaviors that probably should have been a red flag. I thought, like,

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Speaker 5: he's got a temper, he can be really mean, but

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Speaker 5: I didn't see it as abuse. At that time.

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Speaker 3: He was always angry. He would punch walls or punch trees,

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Speaker 3: or slam doors and punch the bed to create an

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Speaker 3: environment of physical intimidation threat. The first time I hit

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Speaker 3: me was a punch whilst air.

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Speaker 6: It was punching my gut and I remember I thought

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Speaker 6: in my head, I'm dying.

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Speaker 2: I remember I fell to my knees. It took my

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Speaker 2: wile to grass my air.

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Speaker 4: But it was the shock because it's those seconds feel horrible.

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Speaker 4: The first time that I experienced my ex husband, the

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Speaker 4: father and my kids, put his sons around my neck.

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Speaker 4: I was about seventeen years old when he was eighteen.

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Speaker 5: The first time I experienced strangeration was on my thirtieth birthday.

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Speaker 4: And he looked at me directly and put his hands

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Speaker 4: around my neck. And he is a pretty tall guy,

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Speaker 4: around six sixty one and his big hands, so it

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Speaker 4: only took him one hand to just go around.

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Speaker 5: My whole neck, and he grabbed me by my throat

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Speaker 5: and slammed me against the garage and then he slammed

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Speaker 5: me on the ground and cracked my head open.

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Speaker 4: I just was in shock, and I was scared he.

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Speaker 2: Would do it to the point before killing me. It

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Speaker 2: was more of proving a point. I'm the boss.

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Speaker 5: You listen to me, you obeyed to me, and then

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Speaker 5: release you.

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Speaker 4: He was, I'm so sorry about what happened. I didn't

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Speaker 4: mean to hurt you. I was just really jealous. And

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Speaker 4: that's how the cycle stayed, right, It's just forgive and

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Speaker 4: it's not going to happen again. I always wanted to

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Speaker 4: believe that that was not gonna happen again.

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Speaker 3: I felt so incredibly alone.

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Speaker 4: I never told anyone what had happened.

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Speaker 1: And it was shameful too.

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Speaker 4: Right, just like, oh my gosh, I have this wonderful, charming,

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Speaker 4: handsome boyfriend. Why is people going to say?

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Speaker 5: And I got to the point that he was strangling

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Speaker 5: me and I was welcoming it. I was like, please

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Speaker 5: just and kill me, you know, I just fucking kill me.

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Speaker 5: I And that really, really was what kind of kicked

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Speaker 5: my husband a gear that scared me that I was

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Speaker 5: welcoming it. And I had gotten so desperate and wanted

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Speaker 5: out of that situation so badly that I just wanted

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Speaker 5: him to kill me.

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Speaker 4: I always had the hope that he was going to change, initially,

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Speaker 4: and then that hope turning to fear of laving him.

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Speaker 3: And at that point it probably was my third or

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Speaker 3: fourth time trying to leave the relationship.

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Speaker 5: The only reason I left really was because I wouldn't

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Speaker 5: be here today if I had said, he would have

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Speaker 5: killed me. I'm sure of it.

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Speaker 2: From iHeart Podcasts, I'm Melissa Jeldson, and this is what

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Speaker 2: happened to Libby Caswell.

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Speaker 7: That we happened. Tell me again, I don't know what.

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Speaker 2: I mean with nobody on seen to tell him what happened.

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Speaker 8: And it was crying, and I said, and I was like, man,

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Speaker 8: what happened.

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Speaker 5: If they were just going back and got the video,

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Speaker 5: one or two things would happened.

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Speaker 6: Something that happened, Things got out of control.

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Speaker 1: It's a fus you wouldn't know. So what.

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Speaker 7: What had happened is we were at the scene.

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Speaker 9: But that actually happened to her, and I have pictures

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Speaker 9: of it. She didn't ever tell me of the extent

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Speaker 9: of all the things that happened.

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Speaker 7: I don't honestly know what happened.

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Speaker 6: Nobody wants to believed that should happened.

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Speaker 10: I shouldn't, fuck though, but it is what it is.

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Speaker 1: That is what happened.

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Speaker 2: And how many times do you estimate that this happened

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Speaker 2: while you knew her?

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Speaker 4: I am so sorry for what happened.

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Speaker 7: When I've seen that story, when I was bored, I

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Speaker 7: really was. That's not what happened. There could be a thousand.

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Speaker 7: Maybe I should should that didn't what happened?

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Speaker 9: R How do you even tell a child this story

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Speaker 9: when they ask what happened to my mother?

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Speaker 2: Chapter eight, Epiphany.

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Speaker 11: There's somewhere between three to five million abused women every year.

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Speaker 2: This is Jackie Campbell, a pioneering researcher in the field

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Speaker 2: of domestic violence.

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Speaker 11: Even though we know prior domestic violence is the biggest

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Speaker 11: risk factor for women being murdered by their partner, there's

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Speaker 11: only about twelve hundred women twelve hundred to fifteen hundred

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Speaker 11: that get murdered every year. That's a tiny, tiny fraction

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Speaker 11: of all of the abused women and That's why it's

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Speaker 11: important to figure out what are the characteristics of that

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Speaker 11: abuse of relationship that you say, Ah, that's dangerous. The

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Speaker 11: danger assessment is meant for those women. Thirty eight years ago,

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Speaker 11: Campbell created the Danger Assessment Tool. It's essentially a series

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Speaker 11: of questions to help victims of abuse better understand the

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Speaker 11: danger their partner poses to them. It's based on research

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Speaker 11: into known risk factors for lethal domestic violence. Has the

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Speaker 11: physical violence increased in severity or frequency? Has he ever

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Speaker 11: forced you to have sex when you did not wish

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Speaker 11: to do so? Does he ever try to choke, strangle,

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Speaker 11: or cut off your breathing? Does he use illegal drugs?

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Speaker 11: Does he control most.

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Speaker 2: Campbell's goal was that someone a social worker or a

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Speaker 2: healthcare provider, or a police officer responding to a domestic

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Speaker 2: violence call could use the questions to a sess how

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Speaker 2: much danger a victim was in and intervene before it

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Speaker 2: was too late. The tool is now used by law

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Speaker 2: enforcement in dozens of states as a proactive approach to

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Speaker 2: reducing domestic violence homicides. As far as I can tell,

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Speaker 2: Libby was never given a danger assessment. No professional ever

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Speaker 2: asked Libby questions about the increasing level of abuse she

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Speaker 2: was dealing with, about the types of abuse she endured

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Speaker 2: or the threats that went along with it. But what

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Speaker 2: seems clear to me is that Libby's relationship with Devon

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Speaker 2: was extremely dangerous. Instead of being labeled uncooperative or a nuisance.

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Speaker 2: What if Libby had been given this assessment? Would it

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Speaker 2: have changed how IPD interacted with her and her family?

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Speaker 2: Would it have changed her own behavior knowing just how

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Speaker 2: much danger she was in. Cindy had never heard of

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Speaker 2: the danger assessment, but after she began working with Alliance

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Speaker 2: for Hope, she was introduced to Jackie Campbell, and one

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Speaker 2: day she sat down with her to do the assessment

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Speaker 2: on Libby's behalf.

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Speaker 9: She said she was going to ask me a series

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Speaker 9: of questions, answered them to the best of my knowledge,

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Speaker 9: and so that's what I did.

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Speaker 2: Before Campbell gave Cindy the results, she explained how the

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Speaker 2: assessment is scored.

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Speaker 11: Zero to eight is called variable danger. That's the lowest level,

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Speaker 11: but we never say there's no danger and domestic violence.

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Speaker 11: Any domestic vious situation could escalate to a homicide. The

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Speaker 11: second level is eight to thirteen, which is called increased danger.

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Speaker 11: Fourteen to seventeen is severe danger and then eighteen or

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Speaker 11: more is extreme danger. So she got a thirty six.

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Speaker 11: This is I think the highest score I've ever gotten

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Speaker 11: on danger assessment. The absolute highest score you can get

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Speaker 11: on it is thirty nine. I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 11: seen that.

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Speaker 9: That almost made me faint.

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Speaker 2: I'm serious.

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Speaker 9: It also made me think if any person involved in

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Speaker 9: her case in the court system, if any one of

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Speaker 9: them would have offered up an assessment, could that have

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Speaker 9: helped her? Would she be alive today? And so in

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Speaker 9: my mind I thought, why don't they know about this?

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Speaker 9: Why haven't I heard about this? Why is this a secret?

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Speaker 9: It feels like a secret.

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Speaker 2: This was a bit of an AHA moment for Cindy.

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Speaker 2: I understood from our many conversations that beyond wanting to

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Speaker 2: discover the truth of what happened to Libby in the

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Speaker 2: motel room that day, Cindy was looking for more answers,

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Speaker 2: deeper answers about why things went so wrong for Libby

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Speaker 2: and where they could have gone differently years for her death.

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Speaker 2: Jackie Campbell's danger assessment confirmed what Cindy felt in her

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Speaker 2: gut that Libby had been failed by a system that

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Speaker 2: was supposed to support her. It also got Cindy thinking

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Speaker 2: about better ways to help victims of domestic violence like Libby,

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Speaker 2: because around this time, Cindy was also becoming something of

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Speaker 2: an advocate. She told me she wanted IPD to begin

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Speaker 2: using the danger assessment with domestic violence victims, and also

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Speaker 2: for the city to rescind the nuisance law that had

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Speaker 2: been used to penalize her family all those years earlier.

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Speaker 9: Since I've learned so many things about domestic violence, I

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Speaker 9: am ready to try to get the right ears to listen.

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Speaker 9: Hopefully our state and city officials will start to recognize

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Speaker 9: how important that is.

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Speaker 2: In October twenty twenty two, Cindy and I both traveled

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Speaker 2: to Colorado to attend a conference called Getting Away with Murder.

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Speaker 2: It was an opportunity for law enforcement from around the

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Speaker 2: country to learn how to spot staged crime scenes and

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Speaker 2: strategies to prosecute them. Cindy had been invited by Casey Gwynn,

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Speaker 2: an Alliance for Hope, to speak about Libby's case.

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Speaker 5: Cindy orw sure w love.

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Speaker 9: I feel less nervous by my chair.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Mindia as well.

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Speaker 12: My daughter was Libby Wiswell, and she was a beautiful, young, twenty.

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Speaker 1: One year old old.

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Speaker 2: In Colorado. I got to watch firsthand as Cindy tested

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Speaker 2: out her new role as an advocate, telling the large

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Speaker 2: crowd details of the most difficult experience of her life,

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Speaker 2: all in the hopes that it would someday be useful.

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Speaker 1: That's my goal.

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Speaker 12: I would love for the police department to really examine

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Speaker 12: a situation and ask questions to the family. We were

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Speaker 12: never asked anything, no questions. We tried to offer information,

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Speaker 12: and really they just had their minds made up.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, thank you for listening.

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Speaker 2: During one of the sessions, photos from the crime scene

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Speaker 2: were projected on a massive screen. I was sitting next

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Speaker 2: to Cindy at a long table, and I watched as

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Speaker 2: she kept her eyes averted trained on the floor to

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Speaker 2: avoid seeing her daughter's dead body. I asked her about

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Speaker 2: it later during a break.

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Speaker 9: It's just a lot of different things and have had

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Speaker 9: to sit back and kind of process it all day.

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Speaker 9: I just felt this blue feeling and I didn't know

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Speaker 9: why I thought it. You know, I talked to myself,

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Speaker 9: You're okay, take some deep bress, smell a flower, blow

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Speaker 9: out the candle. You know, I'd learned that recently.

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Speaker 2: In between the panel discussions and events, Cindy and I

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Speaker 2: tried to buffer the intensity of the conference with the

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Speaker 2: serenity of our surroundings. Situated as we were at the

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Speaker 2: base of Rocky Mountain National Park. When the talks became

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Speaker 2: too much, we would take quiet walks through the snow.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it was just having a moment in nature away

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Speaker 2: from Cindy's life and independence, or maybe it was her

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Speaker 2: growing understanding about her daughter's experience with domestic violence. But

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Speaker 2: something in Cindy's past came to the surface. One evening

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Speaker 2: she mentioned to me that many years ago, long before

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Speaker 2: Libby was born, her older sister Dietta, was killed by

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Speaker 2: her ex husband. I was pretty taken aback to hear this.

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Speaker 2: In reporting this story, I've interviewed Cindy well over a

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Speaker 2: dozen times. I've asked her some incredibly personal questions, and

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Speaker 2: she's always answered them, no matter how difficult. But not

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Speaker 2: once had Dietta's name come up. I didn't press Cindy

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Speaker 2: for too many details. At the time, it had been

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Speaker 2: an emotional weekend and I could tell it was hard

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Speaker 2: for her to talk about her sister. But back up

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Speaker 2: my computer, I did some googling and found a newspaper

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Speaker 2: story from nineteen eighty seven with the headline six die

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Speaker 2: in murder suicide. Here's what happened. One week after Dietta Knight,

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Speaker 2: who was just twenty seven, divorced her husband Virgil, he

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Speaker 2: came to her home and shot and killed her and

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Speaker 2: their two young sons. He also killed a friend Dietta

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Speaker 2: had been hanging out with earlier in the evening and

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Speaker 2: the friend's boyfriend. He then took his own life. At

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Speaker 2: the date on the article, I realized it happened almost

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Speaker 2: exactly thirty years to the day before Libby's death. And

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Speaker 2: there was more. As our time in Colorado went on,

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Speaker 2: Cindy continued to open up to me about the cycle

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Speaker 2: of domestic violence, not just within her family, but within

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Speaker 2: her own marriage too.

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Speaker 9: You know, Virgil did it to my sister, and then

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Speaker 9: Devin did it too Ruby, and of course my husband

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Speaker 9: verbally abused me.

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Speaker 2: Cindy told me that her husband, Robert, was never physically abusive,

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Speaker 2: but had a habit of raising his voice, calling her names,

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Speaker 2: making her feel bad about herself. Robert declined to be

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Speaker 2: interviewed for this podcast. Cindy also told me that like

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Speaker 2: Libby liked so many victims. She tried multiple times to

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Speaker 2: leave her husband, but faced resistance.

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Speaker 9: He took my car keys when I said I was

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Speaker 9: going to leave, told me to sit on the bed

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Speaker 9: and not to move, and he'd go to work the

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Speaker 9: next day and I'd throw things in bags and we'd

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Speaker 9: go to Oklahoma or to my friend. You know. I

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Speaker 9: left him at least twice before the third and the

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Speaker 9: final were I divorced him. And it was always that

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Speaker 9: same thing that they talk about, of how the man

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Speaker 9: will beg and plead and try to point out all

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Speaker 9: the places where he's a good guy. He works every day,

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Speaker 9: he works his butt off for us, except he didn't

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Speaker 9: use nice language, and so I'd be like, well, and

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Speaker 9: he's not hitting me, you know, but really it's a

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Speaker 9: or severe punch in the gut some of the words

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Speaker 9: that are used when someone's verbally abusing you. I kept

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Speaker 9: trying to help him, And this is why I think

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Speaker 9: Liaby did the same thing with Devin, because she witnessed

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Speaker 9: me trying to love her dad through some stuff. And

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Speaker 9: so I'm in therapy about that, you know, because I

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Speaker 9: feel like I should have gone when they were littler

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Speaker 9: after her death. I moved out later that year, twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 9: and then I never came back. That was like it,

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Speaker 9: I think I finally just like it all just kind

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Speaker 9: of I had an epiphany. It was a wake up time,

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Speaker 9: you know, I was. I just kind of was shaken

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Speaker 9: and awaken.

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Speaker 11: By that.

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Speaker 2: Over the course of working on this podcast, and even

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Speaker 2: since the first episode came out, I've been hearing rumors

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Speaker 2: about Libby's death that could take the investigation in different directions.

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Speaker 2: I've heard, for example, that people other than Devon were involved,

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Speaker 2: nefarious characters who may have been at the sports stadium

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Speaker 2: in the day Libby died, and not just random strangers,

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Speaker 2: but people in Devon's orbit. I know IPD has heard

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Speaker 2: all kinds of rumors too, but as of now, they've

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Speaker 2: remained just that. And I actually have a little sympathy

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Speaker 2: for IPD in this regard, because every rumor I've tried

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Speaker 2: to chase down seems to come to a dead end

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Speaker 2: with someone's drug fueled memory and little else except for one.

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Speaker 2: In late twenty twenty two, a witness came forward who

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Speaker 2: claims to have seen Devon in a panic at his

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Speaker 2: dad's house. The day Libby was found, but not at

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Speaker 2: night in the morning, twelve hours before Devon called nine

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Speaker 2: one one to report Libby's death. The witness is named Tommy.

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Speaker 2: He's a friend of Devin's father, Charlie. When I interviewed him,

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Speaker 2: he told me he came forward with this information five

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Speaker 2: years after Libby's death because it was only then that

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Speaker 2: he saw a news report about the investigation and learned

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Speaker 2: what Devon had been telling police. So what happened in

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Speaker 2: Room three nineteen, Libby's boyfriend told police he and Libby

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Speaker 2: checked into the Sports Stadium hotel around six point thirty

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Speaker 2: that morning.

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Speaker 7: When I've seen that story, I was blored. I really was.

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Speaker 7: That's not what happened. He had the story straight, but

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Speaker 7: the timeframe was roamed.

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Speaker 2: Tommy told me he had been visiting Charlie a lot

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Speaker 2: around this time in late twenty seventeen, helping him in

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Speaker 2: various ways through a rough patch.

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Speaker 7: Charlie was going through kind of a hard time, going

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Speaker 7: through divors and some other struggle, so I was helping

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Speaker 7: him out to keep his kid in school so he

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Speaker 7: wouldn't get BHS involved or so.

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Speaker 2: Before Libby's death. At one of these visits to Charlie's house,

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Speaker 2: Tommy met Devin and Libby. He saw that they too

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Speaker 2: were struggling. He says he lent the money for a

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Speaker 2: hotel and helped Libby with some car troubles. He also

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Speaker 2: made plans with Libby to do more work on her

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Speaker 2: car that Monday, December eleventh, But when Monday morning rolled around,

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Speaker 2: Tommy would learn that there wasn't going to be a

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Speaker 2: meetup to fix Slippy's car.

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Speaker 7: I went to Charlie house pick his son up to

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Speaker 7: take him to grade school. Devin and a print of

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Speaker 7: his pulled up in Libby's car, and his stepbrother was

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Speaker 7: just coming out of the house to get in a car,

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Speaker 7: and Devin stopped her dad to ask him what he

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Speaker 7: should do because he woke up and found Libby dead,

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Speaker 7: hanging in the bathroom. And I remember the exact words

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Speaker 7: his dad told him. I don't know if I could

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Speaker 7: say it on air, but there okay, He told him,

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Speaker 7: I'll tell you what to do. You get your ask

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Speaker 7: back to the hotel, you call the fucking cops.

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Speaker 2: And if you were to estimate around what time and.

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Speaker 7: Fay was it? Well, since I was there to take

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Speaker 7: Devin's stepbrother to school, I don't remember what time. Grade

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Speaker 7: school starts is around eight thirty maybe eight. I'm positive

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Speaker 7: it was morning time. I'm positive it was on a

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Speaker 7: Monday morning.

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Speaker 2: Tommy actually brought this information to the police in December

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 13: Someone give me your name and so that you might

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Speaker 13: have some information on the Libby.

355
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Speaker 14: Kaz Real death.

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Speaker 2: Steve Schmidley, the lead detective on Libby's case, asked Tommy,

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Speaker 2: what do he knew?

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Speaker 8: I know for a fact that he.

359
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Speaker 7: Knew she was dead in the morning time.

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Speaker 8: It was in morning as I seen him over there

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Speaker 8: in his dad's That's when he confronted his dad.

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Speaker 7: Value was in morning time.

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Speaker 2: Detective Schmidley listens to what Tommy says, tries to clarify

364
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Speaker 2: the story and response.

365
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Speaker 13: I mean, but I mean there's consistencies for what you're saying.

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Speaker 13: But you're saying that this was the morning of it.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 13: I mean, we got called that evening there roughly around

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Speaker 13: eight o'clock. If you're convinced that this was that morning,

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Speaker 13: I'm ninety nine point nine on that. You know, like

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Speaker 13: I said, it's been a lot of years.

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Speaker 8: I kind of was doubt. You know, what if maybe

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Speaker 8: it was the day after Okay, well, if it was

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Speaker 8: the next morning, Devin wouldn't have been there asking his

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Speaker 8: dad what he should do. You know, I've got no

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Speaker 8: reason to be no, absolutely be making this No, no, no, no.

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Speaker 15: I don't think they're making anything up.

378
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Speaker 13: I'd like said, there's a lot of consistencies that you're saying,

379
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Speaker 13: you know, but it's just trying to you know, I

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Speaker 13: don't know.

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Speaker 9: I'm glad that you did come in.

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Speaker 13: Absolutely, I don't know if this is going to change anything,

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Speaker 13: because again, unfortunately, at the end of the day, you

384
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Speaker 13: know when when Libby passed, you know, billing people in

385
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Speaker 13: the room whom you know are probably going to be

386
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 13: Devin and Libby. It does appear that she did hang herself.

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Speaker 13: You know, the family obviously thinks that she was murdered

388
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Speaker 13: by Devin. Obviously, if there was enough to charge Devin

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Speaker 13: with a murder, again, probably aren't been charged.

390
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Speaker 8: So obviously there's not enough at.

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Speaker 13: This point to indicate the Devin and he's denied any wrongdoing.

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Speaker 13: Like I said, I'm gonna take a report, right I

393
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Speaker 13: got your phone or we need anything.

394
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Speaker 2: If true, Tommy's story is significant because it contradicts the

395
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Speaker 2: time Devin said he discovered Libby's body and raises questions

396
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Speaker 2: about how he spent the day. But as far as

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Speaker 2: I can tell, IPD doesn't seem alarmed or particularly interested

398
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Speaker 2: in this new information. Maybe they don't think Tommy's story

399
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: is credible, or it's just too much work to confirm

400
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: or deny. Either way, I can't explain the logic or

401
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: reasoning behind their actions, but former prosecutor Casey gwyn has

402
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 2: it's his own cynical take.

403
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Speaker 6: If this was a powerful woman with status in the culture,

404
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 6: this case would have been resolved by now and the

405
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 6: killer would be in jail. But Libby Caswell didn't have status.

406
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 6: She did antoun privilege. She was in nobody to the

407
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Speaker 6: Independence Police Department and found dead in a scummy motel.

408
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Speaker 6: I think when they got to the point that they

409
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Speaker 6: couldn't clearly just prove that it was a homicide, they

410
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 6: chose suicide as the easy way out of a comprehensive investigation.

411
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Speaker 2: About six months into my investigation, I received a strange

412
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Speaker 2: email from the Independence Police Department. They told me they

413
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: were denying my most recent request for public records internal

414
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: email and text messages that included Libby or Devin's name.

415
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: I was confused that had already given me a bunch

416
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: of material without pushback, but I quickly realized there was

417
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: a reason they couldn't release any more information. Libby's case

418
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: had been reopened, and, as I was later told, the

419
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: FBI was now involved. I called Cindy to tell her

420
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 2: the news as soon as I could. Hi, Hi, say,

421
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Speaker 2: you're pulled over.

422
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Speaker 16: I am okay.

423
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: I'm sorry for the noise behind me. I'm out of

424
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: kid's soccer game, so that's very loud.

425
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Speaker 16: But I wanted I wanted to.

426
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: Let you know right away. So I just found out

427
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: that the FBI has reopened the case.

428
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 16: Oh my goodness, thank god.

429
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Speaker 2: This is what Cindy had been waiting for another agency

430
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Speaker 2: to look into the case, to investigate what IPD hadn't.

431
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Speaker 16: I am a mixed bag. I'm excited. I'm emotional feeling,

432
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 16: you know, because for five years we've been waiting to

433
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 16: get justice for her, and now I feel like we're

434
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 16: on the track. We're starting the race. Now we're going

435
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 16: to get the right things going.

436
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: In March twenty twenty three, Cindy finds herself files in

437
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: hand at a drab office building in downtown Independence. She's

438
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: been invited to a meeting to talk about the status

439
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: of Libby's case. Cindy's eager to hear what the FBI

440
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: has uncovered in the past few months, and also to

441
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: meet the new IPD detective taking over for Schmidley who'd retired.

442
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: But scanning the meeting room, Cindy quickly realizes Schmidley's replacement

443
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: isn't there, nor is anyone from the FBI. Before she

444
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: has a chance to ask any questions, Aaron Hunt, a

445
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: prosecuting attorney for the county, kicks off the meeting.

446
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 9: She just introduces herself and then she just starts talking

447
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 9: about how they are really sorry about what has happened

448
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 9: and given their condolences about Livy's death. Then started telling

449
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 9: me the story of where they're at. And so she

450
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 9: told me that this isn't a pride thing. They want

451
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 9: justice for their citizens, They want justice for me. They

452
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 9: wouldn't let pride standing in the way of justice. That's

453
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 9: not what they're about.

454
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: Cindy feels a pick growing in her stomach. They're trying

455
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: to sugarcoat something.

456
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 9: This FBI team, they were called the behavior Analyst team.

457
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 9: She says they did an independent investigation of their own,

458
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 9: and their conclusion was that my daughter committed suicide and

459
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 9: the case is now closed. And I said to her,

460
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 9: how could they come up with a conclusion when they

461
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 9: didn't even gather the evidence needed to make an informed decision.

462
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: Despite all the hopes Cindy had going into this meeting,

463
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: this was exactly what had happened before IPD and the

464
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: FBI had appeared, had shut the case once again without

465
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: talking to her, without doing a full victimology, without seeming

466
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: to take into consideration the undetermined ruling, or what doctor

467
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: Bill Smock had found in the forensic evidence.

468
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 9: I said, nobody even asked us. Nobody asked us anything,

469
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 9: and then I left. I sat in my car and

470
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 9: I cried for a long time. I just cried and

471
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 9: drove around. I didn't really want to come home yet,

472
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 9: because I didn't want to bring that in the house.

473
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 9: I did not cry in front of the police.

474
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: I requested public records involving libby the FBI over six

475
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: months ago, but if not yet received a response. I

476
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: also asked the FBI for an interview to explain the

477
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: length and breadth of their investigation. They declined and deferred comment.

478
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: To IPD, I was told quote, the FBI only assisted

479
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: with this case. The Independence, Missouri Police Department was the

480
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: lead investigator. I was really struck by the discrepancy between

481
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: how the prosecuting attorney described the FBI's involvement, characterizing it,

482
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: according to Cindy, as a full investigation, and how the

483
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: FBI responded when I inquired, which was to distance themselves

484
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: from significant involvement in the case.

485
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 17: It is very clear that the FBI never did an

486
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 17: independent investigation.

487
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 5: In this case.

488
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: Because Casey Gwynn has worked with law enforcement for more

489
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: than three decades, I was curious what he made of this.

490
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 17: There is always an opportunity in these cases or a

491
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 17: local law enforcement agency to say to the FBI, we

492
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 17: need your help, we need independent review, we need you

493
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 17: to take over this case. We need you to come

494
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 17: in and relook at everything we've.

495
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: Done that did not happen.

496
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 17: There is little doubt that the only thing that happened

497
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 17: is that the FBI was asked to look at the

498
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 17: motel room, take some pictures, take some measurements, to do

499
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 17: an on site review. That's it, and that is not

500
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 17: enough to conclude whether or not this with a homicide

501
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 17: or a suicide.

502
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 10: For the independent police Department to say that the FBI

503
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 10: agrees with them and their conclusion is, in my opinion,

504
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 10: one of the most dishonest things I've ever seen a

505
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 10: police department do.

506
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: I also asked Gwenn what option Cindy had left.

507
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 17: Sooner or later somebody talks, sooner or later other evidence

508
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 17: comes forward. We have said to Cindy, and we will

509
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 17: continue to say. The Alliance for Hope International team.

510
00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 7: Is with you.

511
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 17: We will not give up and will not stop, but

512
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 17: will not back down. We will continue to advocate for

513
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 17: justice for Libby.

514
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 9: After all this time and all the stuff that we've

515
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 9: been through. I'm not intimidated that easily. I just keep

516
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 9: picking at it and i keep showing up, and I'm

517
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 9: not going to give up if I think they didn't

518
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 9: expect us to fight like that for this girl on

519
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 9: the bathroom floor.

520
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: This fight, it takes up a big part of Cindy's life.

521
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 2: There are days she's optimistic and others where she feels hopeless.

522
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: In between, she carries on. She's essentially a single mom,

523
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: now raising Xavier as her own, and in the last

524
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: few months her life has gone through some big changes.

525
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: She quit her job at the Price Chopper Bakery, and

526
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: she got a new job driving the special needs bus

527
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: for the school district so that her work hours align

528
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: with Xavier's time at school. She's also pursuing a degree

529
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: in early childhood education. As this episode comes out in

530
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 2: December twenty twenty three, it will have been six years

531
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: since Libby's death. With time comes the sting of realizing

532
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 2: how far Cindy has gone without her oldest daughter, and

533
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 2: how her grief has been folded into a new rhythm

534
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 2: of life.

535
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 9: I think she would have turned twenty seven in March.

536
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 9: Sometimes I do the math, you know, I have to

537
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 9: get my calculator out because I forget, you know, and

538
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 9: it makes me sad that I would forget that. But

539
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 9: I have a lot going on. When her birthday comes around,

540
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 9: we all go to dinner together as a family. We

541
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 9: ask for a big table. We leave a chair open

542
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 9: for Libby and so we toast her and we talk

543
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 9: about all the good things and funny things that she did.

544
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 9: We usually tip the waitress really well, because it's usually

545
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 9: a young woman that is making her living, you know,

546
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 9: with tips.

547
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 2: And if Libby's case, even if it never becomes more

548
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: solved or resolved than it is now. But if other

549
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: things were to change, like the nuisance Slaga overturned, or

550
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: independence changed how they dealt with domestic violence, would that

551
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,720
Speaker 2: make a difference for you in terms of thinking about

552
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 2: what Libby's death meant.

553
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 9: If you wouldn't ask me that a few years ago,

554
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 9: I would have said, I'm not hearing that.

555
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 16: You know what I mean?

556
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 9: Now, I think there still needs to be some changes,

557
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 9: And if I can see some changes made to help

558
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 9: the next young woman, I think Libby would be happy

559
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 9: with that. I think that she would be saying, right on, mom,

560
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 9: you didn't give up.

561
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: During the year and a half, I've immersed myself in

562
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: Libby's story. I've had the privilege of watching Cindy change.

563
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: The first time I met her, she spoke so quietly,

564
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure the mic was even going to pick

565
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: her up. Now when we talk, she's still reserved, but

566
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: she's got a certain confidence that seems to grow by

567
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: the day. I wish I could give her the resolution

568
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: she so desperately wants and deserves. But I still can't

569
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: say for sure what happened to Libby inside Room three nineteen.

570
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: I don't share this certainty that some others have expressed

571
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: in this podcast. I believe it was possible, even probable,

572
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 2: that she was murdered, based on the forensic evidence and

573
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: what I've learned learn about the circumstances surrounding her death.

574
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: I also believe it's not outside the realm of possibility

575
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: that Libby took her own life due to pain emanating

576
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 2: from an abusive relationship and a prolonged struggle with drug

577
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: abuse that threatened the things she cared about most. Ultimately,

578
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 2: I hope that sharing Libby's story will continue to stir

579
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: up conversation, to motivate people who might have information about

580
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: her death to come forward. But what I am certain

581
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: about is how profoundly Libby was failed. When she was

582
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: alive as a teen, she was taught through the police's

583
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 2: actions and inactions, that her problems were a nuisance and

584
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: that seeking help was likely to get her in trouble.

585
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,919
Speaker 2: She got the message that she had to handle it alone,

586
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 2: and that isolation it would come to define the rest

587
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: of her short life. She kept her struggles private, even

588
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: as they became more and more unmanageable. I think a

589
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 2: lot about that last week of her life, when Devin

590
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 2: strangled her, and she finally told someone in a position

591
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: of authority about his abuse. I think about how terrifying

592
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 2: it must have been to have someone hold your life

593
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: hostage literally in their hands, and how scared she was,

594
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 2: as evidenced by her final conversations with her friends Nathan

595
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 2: and Brian. It never should have got to the point

596
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: where Libby was in that motel room with Devon. She

597
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: needed help that week, months before, in years earlier, despite

598
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: the fact she was exhibiting all the most critical red flags,

599
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: the systems in place for people like her did not

600
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 2: support Libby, and I consider that a failure for all

601
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: of us. I wish Libby had felt less alone. I

602
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,919
Speaker 2: wish she had gone to the shelter when Colleen got

603
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: her a bed, but that time has passed. Now all

604
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: we can do is try to make the system better

605
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 2: for victims like Libby, and it's worth saying for people

606
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 2: who use violence too, because they also deserve saving. Often

607
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: I find myself thinking about Xavier. Cindy still hasn't told

608
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: him this story, but sooner or later she'll have to.

609
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: I think about what we can do to make sure

610
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: that boys and men who are exposed to traumatic events,

611
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: get help break the cycle go on to live healthy lives.

612
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: And I believe that process starts with people like Cindy.

613
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 9: Every day after school and I get home, I sit

614
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:04,959
Speaker 9: with him and ask him about his day.

615
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: Sometimes he'll answer me in.

616
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 9: Curious George language, which is really funny, and because you know,

617
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 9: curious George just kind of goes ah ah, and I'll

618
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 9: say that is monkey talk. I don't know what you're saying,

619
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 9: you know, And then I'll tickle him and laugh. He

620
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 9: calls me mom. We tried and tried and tried to

621
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 9: get him to call us grandma and grandpa. We've had

622
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 9: him see psychologists and therapists and they all say, you know,

623
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 9: it's not that he doesn't know you're not his mom.

624
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 9: He just he sees other kids have mom and dad,

625
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 9: and so that's why he's doing it, because when you

626
00:40:44,760 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 9: ask him who his mom is, he says, Libby.

627
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 2: What Happened To Libby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted

628
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: by me Melissa Jelson, with writing and story editing by

629
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 2: Marissa Brown and Lauren Hanson. This episode was edited by

630
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 2: Jeremy Thal and Zubin Hensler. Our executive producer is Ryan

631
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: Murdoch for iHeart Podcasts. Executive producers are Jason English and

632
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 2: Katrina Norvel, with our supervising producer Carl Catel. Fact checking

633
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: by Maya Shukri. Archival material courtesy of KSHB forty one News.

634
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: Our theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed

635
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 2: Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolfe. Original music by Aaron Kaufman

636
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: with additional music by Jeremy Thal and Zuben Hensler. Our

637
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: episodes are mixed and mastered by Karl Catel and Zuben Hensler.

638
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 2: I want to give a special thanks to Libby's family,

639
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 2: especially Cindy and Natalie Caswell, as well as Libby's friends,

640
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 2: Alliance for Hope International Sarah Plague, and countless other experts

641
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 2: and academics who gave me their time. An extra special

642
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: shout out to Pete Monica for being an early listener

643
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: and a constant support, and to Eve Monica, who was

644
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: born during the making of this show.

645
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: There's a further through the windows, so where is she?

646
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: My and it wrists fading too.

647
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 14: Hold away across the light and the light flies and

648
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 14: my head It's saved and Simon coll I fall under.

649
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 15: Washing the word.

650
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: Rises las.

651
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 15: Washing, the right lashing, the water all ride.

652
00:44:38,880 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 14: Less so the fire. It's cool and cold, and he died,

653
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 14: loved discus if it was intended ore so don then.

654
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: And I played it back only at half speed, like

655
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: an alternate.

656
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 18: For a time man washing words.

657
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: A lesson washing, the.

658
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 5: A s.

659
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 15: Rushing, the words.

660
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: Waded, and river halfway ward in.

661
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 15: Shall be.

662
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: She said, A word of things to the loving day,

663
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: and a fall abod. And we over light, and I

664
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: find myself.

665
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 15: In a dude watching the water.

666
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 9: The.

667
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 1: Sinking canto night, watching the water sinking against mm hmmm,

668
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 1: mm hmmmm