Speaker 1: Worrying.
Speaker 2: Today's episode contained spoilers for Pluribus episode.
Speaker 1: Seven, The Gap. Hello, my name is Jason Concepcion.
Speaker 2: Anna Merday Night, and welcome back to x re vision
Speaker 2: of the podcast where we got Deep. It's your favorite shows, movies,
Speaker 2: comics or pop culture company from my heart, where we'll
Speaker 2: bring you three episodes a weekless news plus news.
Speaker 3: In today's episode, we are talking Hollorabus episode seven. You
Speaker 3: guys have been loving the show, so if we will
Speaker 3: be tapping in super producer Ian to join us. And
Speaker 3: before we jump in, just a quick production note. This
Speaker 3: holiday season, we've been sharing a couple of short stocking
Speaker 3: stuff for episodes with you. With so many great shows, movies,
Speaker 3: books coming out this next few months, these episodes will
Speaker 3: help us cover some extra content we wouldn't be able
Speaker 3: to get on on normal episodes, So keep an eye
Speaker 3: for those as they come out throughout the month.
Speaker 2: But first Pluribus episode seven, All right, Episode seven, then Gap,
Speaker 2: a little bit of a slower episode that really brings
Speaker 2: you every character heavy, emotionally heavy, emotional landscape type episode.
Speaker 2: Carol drives back from Las Vegas after her meeting with Diabate.
Speaker 2: She is in a very weird mood, I think, owing
Speaker 2: to her conversation with Diabaday and realizing she's been shut
Speaker 2: out of conversations between the other survivors, and.
Speaker 1: The fact that.
Speaker 2: She's clearly in this episode grappling with the fact that
Speaker 2: something about the way she is, you know, made up.
Speaker 2: Her personality makes peace people, even hiveminded people who only
Speaker 2: want to please, not want to be around her, and
Speaker 2: she's dealing with that now. So she stops to get gas.
Speaker 2: She calls to get the gas pump turned on. She
Speaker 2: calls to order a very specific gatorade order with a
Speaker 2: very specific flavor and a very specific temperature ask, and
Speaker 2: then when it arrives it's not to her liking, which
Speaker 2: she complains about. She picks up some fireworks, goes home
Speaker 2: in order to set off. When she gets home and
Speaker 2: makes a bevy of stops along the way, including to
Speaker 2: pick up a new car.
Speaker 1: When her cop car breaks.
Speaker 2: Down, she gets a beautiful which I look up. I
Speaker 2: looked up the prices on Rolls royceys roy says, guys,
Speaker 2: would you like to guess a brand new Rolls Royce
Speaker 2: Phantom twenty twenty five Rolls Royce Phantom, which is their
Speaker 2: flagship car. Would you like to guess with the MSRP
Speaker 2: on that? I think it's one hundred thousand dollars. I
Speaker 2: was going to say, two fifty you gotta go way up.
Speaker 2: Three three fifty, gotta go up, gotta go up.
Speaker 4: That's used.
Speaker 1: You could get into a used three for about half
Speaker 1: a million.
Speaker 2: It's in the seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars rate
Speaker 2: for the Phantom.
Speaker 3: She's choosen the writ car basically the same time.
Speaker 2: I know right well, I think again, I think this
Speaker 2: is clearly speaking to her. It's like she's seen what
Speaker 2: Diabat is doing and she's going, can I do that?
Speaker 1: What's my version of that?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Can I get into it? Let me order this gatorade?
Speaker 2: In In tremendously specific fashion, she goes to a Georgia
Speaker 2: O'Keeffe museum and takes a specific painting that she has
Speaker 2: a print off of her.
Speaker 3: House of shit. That's the kind of shit, you know.
Speaker 2: She stops at a spa and then when she gets home,
Speaker 2: she puts the new Georgia O'Keefe on the wall and
Speaker 2: calls the hive mind saying, I'm getting dressed up for dinner.
Speaker 2: I want this very specific dinner. From these very specific
Speaker 2: meals that Helen and I had get it going for tonight.
Speaker 3: She gets the piano music going, she's eating some delicious food.
Speaker 3: Every meal that comes out has some specific meaning and
Speaker 3: intention from her relationship with Helen. But it becomes very clear,
Speaker 3: very quickly that really what she's staving off is the loneliness.
Speaker 3: And I think what's really playing on her hair is
Speaker 3: how Diabarte was essentially last episode, like had a panic
Speaker 3: attack when she said she was going to stay like
Speaker 3: he was thinking. I think that's I think that's something
Speaker 3: that's made her realign what she's thinking. Anyway, while Carol
Speaker 3: is rethinking her eagerness to fight the Hive Mind, Paraguay
Speaker 3: guy Minusos is out of gas and a truck comes
Speaker 3: to offer him a lift and some water, but he
Speaker 3: finds a ver calls siphons out the fuel. He leaves
Speaker 3: some cash under the wiper. He does not believe in
Speaker 3: taking from the Hive Mind, as we will find out.
Speaker 3: He gets his car running and we see he's practicing
Speaker 3: in English. Ultimately, probably for this meet up with Carol,
Speaker 3: whether or not it will go the way he wants,
Speaker 3: is likely gonna be our big finale conflict. On the way,
Speaker 3: we see he is living off the grid. He's catching
Speaker 3: his own fish, he's collecting his own water. And also
Speaker 3: this was something that Ian Clock the moment that this
Speaker 3: episode was announced with the title he goes off road
Speaker 3: through the Darien Gap. That is the title obviously is
Speaker 3: half about that and half about Carol and her kind
Speaker 3: of gap between her and any other human friendship or being.
Speaker 3: And when this guy gets to a point where he
Speaker 3: has to walk the gap, he will do it. And
Speaker 3: the hive mind comes out, and hive Mind's like, don't
Speaker 3: do it. It's like people are emerging out of the jungle.
Speaker 3: They're like, you're gonna die. The weather's gonna be punishing.
Speaker 4: The most dangerous place on the planet.
Speaker 3: Likely, you're gonna be getting snaked, you're gonna getting kyote,
Speaker 3: you're gonna be getting bitten by bugs that can kill you.
Speaker 3: Don't go. You can just go to New Mexico on
Speaker 3: a boat or a plane or just like, we'll give
Speaker 3: you a car. And he's like, please, I'm gonna set
Speaker 3: my car on fire and go fuck yourself. Nothing on
Speaker 3: this planet is yours, he says. He calls them thieves
Speaker 3: and says they do not belong there, and he heads off,
Speaker 3: practicing as English by saying he wishes to save the world.
Speaker 3: I really am feeling vim at this point because I
Speaker 3: feel like Carol's plan is diverging from what she promised.
Speaker 2: I feel like Carol is really about to regret what
Speaker 2: she's been asking and pleading for, which is won't someone
Speaker 2: be dedicated like me to saving the Earth? Well, I
Speaker 2: think we're gonna find out that Manusosa is really about it,
Speaker 2: and probably about it in ways that are not good.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was gonna say, Jason tell us what we
Speaker 3: see him do, because that gives us like a real
Speaker 3: insight into just how hard call this guy is compared
Speaker 3: to Carol.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just the fact that he's he's unwilling
Speaker 2: to take anything from them. And then his speech where
Speaker 2: he says, you know you've stolen this planet essentially your thieves,
Speaker 2: you don't belong here. I think it's a it's an
Speaker 2: interesting question, right what you because clearly Carol's right like
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think anybody's arguing that Carol is
Speaker 2: incorrect in her analysis of what has happened. This alien
Speaker 2: species has come in and hijacked the planet against the planets.
Speaker 2: Will that said, what if in order to get things
Speaker 2: back the way they were, you have to be the
Speaker 2: most brutal and ruthless.
Speaker 1: Mm, what if you do the worst things?
Speaker 2: And I think that's what Manusos is confronting us with
Speaker 2: that question. So Manusos is moving through the gap and
Speaker 2: it's just as hard as the Hive Mind told him,
Speaker 2: and you know, day night and day and night, and
Speaker 2: he's trekking through this unforgiving type of landscape. And then
Speaker 2: eventually one of the things that the Hive mind warned
Speaker 2: him about about, this very particular spiny tree with these
Speaker 2: big spikes on it covered in bacteria. Well minusso slips
Speaker 2: and impales his back on it, and now he's in
Speaker 2: serious trouble.
Speaker 3: That night, he like.
Speaker 2: As if he's in Commando by yeah, the Arnold Schwarzenegger
Speaker 2: movie Commando or some other type rails, Yeah, some bear
Speaker 2: grills like Sealed Team six fantasy. He heats up his
Speaker 2: machete in order to I guess, burn off the infection
Speaker 2: from the wounds on his back. That doesn't work, and
Speaker 2: soon enough he is in terrible shape. His skin looks
Speaker 2: like fucking mashed potatoes. He collapses, but the Hive Mind
Speaker 2: has been tracking him the whole time, and a her
Speaker 2: helicopter descends to rescue him.
Speaker 3: Also, isn't it kind of funny? Like I did really
Speaker 3: love how this episode ends, And this is what's so
Speaker 3: great about this show, because I still don't know what
Speaker 3: Vince wants us to take from it, but I love
Speaker 3: how this episode essentially ends with both of them needing
Speaker 3: help from the Hive Mind still, even though they're both
Speaker 3: so furious and sure, and you know, he's going through
Speaker 3: the Darien Gap and he's gonna do it himself. I
Speaker 3: can't do it myself. He doesn't need a drone of
Speaker 3: ice cold red Gatorade. He's gonna drink the water from
Speaker 3: the But eventually, you know, he gets so sick that
Speaker 3: if he wasn't saved by the Hive Mind, he would die.
Speaker 3: And as we see, Carol is not doing much better
Speaker 3: in Albuquerque. She is practicing her golf swing off the
Speaker 3: roof of a building. She's really living that third Yeah, wasteful,
Speaker 3: kind of like thirty Digital Night. Nobody's there. She's setting
Speaker 3: off fireworks, she's drinking. She's spiraling one of the fireworks
Speaker 3: in a classic you know what in in England we
Speaker 3: learn is a classic firework fail. You've got to be
Speaker 3: fireworks safe, guys, because we have fireworks Night every year
Speaker 3: in England November fifth to celebrate guy fawks trying to
Speaker 3: blow up Parliament because that's kind of country we are.
Speaker 3: And guess what, we have many PSAs about how you
Speaker 3: should not do this exact thing. So she's drinking, she's
Speaker 3: doing fireworks. One of the fireworks explodes right next to her,
Speaker 3: and she is ready just to let it kill her.
Speaker 3: Doesn't even flinch. To me, I was like, Yep, she's
Speaker 3: accepted it. This is it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was rock bottom.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Instead, doesn't kill Carol because we have to see
Speaker 3: her in Manuso's face off next week. So instead it
Speaker 3: sets her house on fire. She puts it out with
Speaker 3: a hose. Next day she goes to get supplies to
Speaker 3: fix the house and we see that what she's really
Speaker 3: doing is painting a massive message on the street. She
Speaker 3: goes inside the house. We pull back as Zosha arrives
Speaker 3: out of a car and we see that she had
Speaker 3: written on the page in large white letters. Come back
Speaker 3: and we see Zosha get out the car. She hugs her,
Speaker 3: she starts to cry and she's just so happy to
Speaker 3: have that human connection. And also in that moment, I
Speaker 3: was like, when she wrote come back, I'm like, is
Speaker 3: she talking about Helen? Is she talking about Zosha? Like
Speaker 3: such an interesting moment there. And we end in this
Speaker 3: place where despite whatever these two people have said, they're
Speaker 3: so independent they want to exist without the high of mind.
Speaker 3: They're going to fight them. Both of them end in
Speaker 3: a place where they're getting helped by the hive mind.
Speaker 3: And I just thought that was really interesting. Let's go
Speaker 3: to an ad break and when we're back, we'll come
Speaker 3: back when Supervid is Ian who you have heard chiming
Speaker 3: in that his thought.
Speaker 2: And we're back, We're back, really almost like a tone
Speaker 2: poem type episode. Let's let's start with both Carol and
Speaker 2: Manusos's seemingly like mirroring dedication to like doing it on
Speaker 2: their own. Both of them end up not doing it
Speaker 2: all the way on their own. Carol surrenders Minusos was
Speaker 2: surely willing to die on that particular patch of the
Speaker 2: Darien Gap to prove that he was willing to do
Speaker 2: it alone, but I mind would not let him. Let's
Speaker 2: talk about that, because I found that really fascinating.
Speaker 1: Ian.
Speaker 2: What did you think about Menusus's just dedication to this
Speaker 2: idea that he doesn't want to take part in anything
Speaker 2: that the Hive Mind have to offer him.
Speaker 5: So as I was watching the episode, initially, I was like, man, like,
Speaker 5: is this guy low key kind of like a glutton
Speaker 5: for punishment. He's taking the hardest path at every turn,
Speaker 5: refusing even the most basic assistance, doing everything himself. And
Speaker 5: then I think throughout the episode there are little hints
Speaker 5: that he might also have some kind of religious background too,
Speaker 5: So then I was like, it's this like sort of
Speaker 5: like a penance atonement thing. Did he do something like
Speaker 5: fucked up in his past that he feels like he
Speaker 5: needs to atone for, you know? So that's where it
Speaker 5: kind of made me think initially. But then right before
Speaker 5: he enters the gap, when you know, all the people
Speaker 5: come out of their jungle and they're pleading with him
Speaker 5: not to do it by himself, and the thing that
Speaker 5: he says that really just like kind of made it
Speaker 5: all click in a place which we've already alluded to, was,
Speaker 5: you know, he says that everything they have to offer
Speaker 5: is stolen and it's not theirs to give. They don't
Speaker 5: belong on this planet. And I mean, yeah, he makes
Speaker 5: a brilliant point. It made me think of like squatters'
Speaker 5: rights almost. It's like you leave your house and go
Speaker 5: to work, somebody breaks in and changes the locks. They're like, oh,
Speaker 5: this is my house now. You know, you can come
Speaker 5: in if you want, but this is my house now.
Speaker 5: And it's like, that's essentially what they did to the
Speaker 5: entire planet. And he's not about it. And so I
Speaker 5: think his really strong defiance and that steadfast belief that
Speaker 5: you know, like you do not belong here, none of
Speaker 5: this is yours is going to set up a really
Speaker 5: interesting conflict when he finally does meet up with Carol,
Speaker 5: because I think she's starting to go the other direction.
Speaker 2: Or at least she's, yeah, been been beaten down by
Speaker 2: the loneliness and for inability to deal with herself by
Speaker 2: herself exactly. You know what made me think of it
Speaker 2: made me think of Menusus's kind of extremism is again
Speaker 2: it's like you agree with it on a certain level,
Speaker 2: but it made me think of, here's the thing that
Speaker 2: annoys me when I the it's and it's a thing
Speaker 2: I agree with the whenever I see in particularly a
Speaker 2: white leftist with like a no one is illegal on
Speaker 2: stolen land t shirt. First of all, agree with that.
Speaker 2: I completely agree with sentiment. I love this sentence where
Speaker 2: it comes from. But it's also like, you can't who
Speaker 2: stole one, who stole land? And two you can't connect
Speaker 2: the truth of that with anythingtionable.
Speaker 1: Like to me, it's a.
Speaker 2: Platitude because in order to fix that, like you would
Speaker 2: need to undertake such an enormous amount of effort behind
Speaker 2: violent strategies, nonviolent strategies, you know, like to in order
Speaker 2: to eject the people who stole the land from the
Speaker 2: land and enact this kind of like free flowing return
Speaker 2: to its original owners, it would under you would need
Speaker 2: to be so crazy and violent.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment.
Speaker 2: I just think that you think about to have it
Speaker 2: on a T shirt is basically like a platitude what
Speaker 2: can you do for me now? And that is how
Speaker 2: I feel about Manuso's It's kind of like, listen, you
Speaker 2: don't the enormity of what's facing you is seven billion
Speaker 2: people in this hive mind you control nothing like you.
Speaker 2: I don't disagree that this is a terrible set of circumstances,
Speaker 2: but like, take a fucking bottle of water, Jesus Christ,
Speaker 2: like you don't, like, give me a fucking break.
Speaker 3: You can use You can save the world better if
Speaker 3: you are nourished and if you're drinking food. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: I wanted to pick up on a three well Ian
Speaker 3: and Jason, I think you both made some really great points. Jason,
Speaker 3: I was also thinking about that that kind of thing
Speaker 3: with how it's also like, you know, the notion of
Speaker 3: kind of like if he is religious and he believes
Speaker 3: that God created the world, that could also be why
Speaker 3: he is so devout about this idea that they are
Speaker 3: stealing right like, And I also thought part of the
Speaker 3: reason why he might be really good or insistent on
Speaker 3: being isolated is if he was like a priest or
Speaker 3: a vicar in some kind of you know, seminary or
Speaker 3: wherever those people go and they be quiet for a
Speaker 3: long time and they don't eat. So I definitely think
Speaker 3: that word. I also love that you brought that up, Jason,
Speaker 3: because it is giving, like you know, when people do
Speaker 3: like land acknowledgments. Again not against the stamp staateat the idea. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: but so many of my friends who are actually indigenous.
Speaker 3: Are like, that's like having like a party at your
Speaker 3: at somebody else like your house, and you're like, yeah,
Speaker 3: this used to be your house. I just want to
Speaker 3: acknowledge that. But now it's my house, you know. It's
Speaker 3: like you still like, could you just give me the house?
Speaker 1: Something about it?
Speaker 2: And and to that end, Rosie, I think there's something
Speaker 2: too about Manuso's that the way he keeps repeating I'm
Speaker 2: ready to save the world, like I'm ready to save
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: It's like this.
Speaker 2: You can you can sense that there's a feeling that
Speaker 2: he has that he's been chosen for this.
Speaker 4: Yes, he has like a duty to do it.
Speaker 1: Right, he has a duty to do it.
Speaker 2: Carol kind of had a little bit of that, although
Speaker 2: she was and I think even she would say she's
Speaker 2: forced into this, but now we have to do something
Speaker 2: about it now, whereas.
Speaker 1: You feel as though Minusos.
Speaker 2: Thinks he's been called to this some absolutely, I don't
Speaker 2: know that makes me. I am he feels like a
Speaker 2: very dangerous person.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say Manuso's secret like antagonists for the
Speaker 3: finale because he's going to try and nuke the world
Speaker 3: because she told him they'd give him a nuke or whatever,
Speaker 3: and well, he has going to have to try and
Speaker 3: save Zosha.
Speaker 2: He's got the frequency, right, So I think, yeah, from
Speaker 2: his point of view, let's turn off.
Speaker 1: How do we jam this? How do we turn this off?
Speaker 1: And I think what we've seen is hate.
Speaker 2: Turning it off could potentially lead to I don't know,
Speaker 2: like seven billion people dying or millions of people dying
Speaker 2: at least, so let's pause on that. But I think
Speaker 2: he's going to really want to do it something.
Speaker 3: I think this really interesting that you're making me realize
Speaker 3: as we talk about this, and this is kind of
Speaker 3: something I used to think it's going to sound out
Speaker 3: there at first, but it reminds me of this do
Speaker 3: you guys? You know Beauty and the Beast, right, the
Speaker 3: classic question. I used to watch that movie and I
Speaker 3: loved the movie, but at the end I would always
Speaker 3: kind of feel a little bit sad for Gaston, not
Speaker 3: because he died because he sucks, but because in any
Speaker 3: other Disney movie, he would be like the hero, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: he would be the guy who's going to kill the
Speaker 3: monster and save the princess. This is kind of giving
Speaker 3: that vibe where like Minusos is the guy that most
Speaker 3: action TV shows or movies would follow in this story
Speaker 3: trying to save but instead Vince said, well, what if
Speaker 3: we shift to this person who actually is not a
Speaker 3: selfless person who's not thinking about the world, who is
Speaker 3: more just pissed off and furious and almost like a
Speaker 3: side character that you would come across when you were
Speaker 3: trying to survive the apocalypse and flipped it. And I
Speaker 3: think that's really interesting because this episode we get so
Speaker 3: much of Carol's pettiness. Oh my gator raide, wasn't ice cold?
Speaker 3: Drone me? And other one like come on, Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: she doesn't have main character syndrome in the way that
Speaker 3: Manuso stares wear Manuso. She has the version where everything
Speaker 3: just needs to happen to her at any point. So
Speaker 3: let's talk a little bit about how much Carol is
Speaker 3: currently living in the security of this idea that the
Speaker 3: Hive mind cannot turn her after last episode, So Ian
Speaker 3: you you really knowed how this episode she is just
Speaker 3: like on a tear like Okay, well I can do
Speaker 3: whatever I want now because you guys can't turn me.
Speaker 3: So could you talk a little bit about how you
Speaker 3: think that like ties into her journey emotionally throughout the season.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I think as she leaves Vegas, you know
Speaker 5: when Diabat is like, you know, they do miss you,
Speaker 5: They're just looking for a little bit of a change
Speaker 5: in attitude, and she's like, fuck them, you know, let
Speaker 5: them starve, pick a fucking apple, do whatever you gotta do.
Speaker 4: I'm out of here. She really carries that over.
Speaker 5: Into this episode, and then it just kind of escalates
Speaker 5: as as the episode continues. You know, she's being openly
Speaker 5: antagonistic and petty with the gatorade. It's not cold enough,
Speaker 5: like what are you guys doing? And then when she
Speaker 5: gets back to Albertquerque, she starts drinking again heavily. She's
Speaker 5: lighting off fireworks, stealing art for museums, destroying property, she
Speaker 5: steals the rolls Royce, and I think she kind of
Speaker 5: slips into this like apathetic nihilism where she's like, you
Speaker 5: know what, they can't turn me, none of this matters.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna do whatever I want. And she kind of
Speaker 5: takes a page out of Diabate's book and starts living
Speaker 5: it up like he does, but in a darker way.
Speaker 3: I want to say, yeah, she does have a darker energy.
Speaker 5: To it, yeah, because I mean clearly she's depressed and
Speaker 5: hurt by the fact that no one wants to be
Speaker 5: around her, the survivors or the Hive Mind, and so
Speaker 5: I think that kind of hardens her in a way
Speaker 5: where she's just like, fuck it, then I'll just be
Speaker 5: by myself in Albuquerque and do my thing. But we
Speaker 5: see throughout that process though clearly she is lonely and hurt.
Speaker 5: You know, when she goes to the dinner by herself
Speaker 5: and has them make all these meal from her memories
Speaker 5: and then she's sitting there reflecting she puts on the music.
Speaker 5: There's a sadness to that scene that I think is
Speaker 5: really striking, and I think that's when she starts to realize,
Speaker 5: like do I like being alone by myself? Do I
Speaker 5: like being this defiant and indignant?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 5: And then we cut to Manuso. So then by the
Speaker 5: time we get back to Carol, it's been like about
Speaker 5: a month of her being alone in Albuquerque. There's a
Speaker 5: little bit of a time jump there, and that's when
Speaker 5: we see the scene with the fireworks, where that's I
Speaker 5: think the true rock bottom moment where she's drunk with
Speaker 5: the fireworks. She sees it tip over and she's like,
Speaker 5: fuck it. If it happens, it happens, yes, you know,
Speaker 5: if not, whatever. And so when it doesn't happen, and
Speaker 5: she realized, okay, Like I think that kind of makes
Speaker 5: her really realize, like, oh shit, I am lonely, I
Speaker 5: do miss Zosha, I don't want to be here by myself.
Speaker 5: And I think that's what inspires her to reach out
Speaker 5: and make that plea for connection. And so, you know,
Speaker 5: I think, as we've been saying, that's going to lead
Speaker 5: to a really interesting conflict between her and Manusos where
Speaker 5: she's you know, I think they started in similar places,
Speaker 5: but Manuso's has stayed in that place and if anything,
Speaker 5: has hardened his resolve even more, whereas Carol started there
Speaker 5: and has maybe come around to realizing, oh, you know,
Speaker 5: I don't want to be alone. I do have this
Speaker 5: desire for connection. Maybe Zosia is not so bad with
Speaker 5: the understanding or the thought that they can't turn her.
Speaker 5: She's like, maybe I can make the best of this situation.
Speaker 3: Uh huh, So how likely do you think? I feel
Speaker 3: like it's really going towards a place where Manuso's is
Speaker 3: gonna find a way to save the entire world, and
Speaker 3: Carol will stop him to save Zosha, and it's gonna
Speaker 3: be the same. It's gonna be the same, Like what's
Speaker 3: the word like selfishness that she's always.
Speaker 4: Had, right because now that doesn't serve her needs anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting to you bring up some good points.
Speaker 2: I wanted to point out, like that one thing that
Speaker 2: really struck me about Manusos's even weeks now into his
Speaker 2: understanding thanks to Carol's video, about the kind of nature
Speaker 2: of the hive mind that they actually pose no physical
Speaker 2: threat at all, and you know they can't do this
Speaker 2: and that, and they will do their best basically to
Speaker 2: say yes to any requests that you.
Speaker 1: Make of them.
Speaker 2: Even then, he was like unholstering his machete when the
Speaker 2: truck was pulling up behind it, like he's ready, even then,
Speaker 2: knowing what they're about to hack them up if I
Speaker 2: guess they try and do they cross some line that
Speaker 2: he has touched him in some way or something. And
Speaker 2: then with regards to Carol, it reminded me Her journey
Speaker 2: reminded me a lot of you know, when you're a
Speaker 2: kid in like you're like I'm going to run away,
Speaker 2: I'm going to like, that's it, mom, I'm leaving. Really,
Speaker 2: really what you want, even though like you don't have
Speaker 2: the ability to like express it, is like you want
Speaker 2: some somebody to listen to you, You want some attention.
Speaker 2: You feel like you're not getting it, and so you're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: watch that, Yeah, I don't need you.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna live on my own.
Speaker 2: And that really is Carol's entire journey this episode.
Speaker 1: And listen, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think part of Carol's problem is that she can't
Speaker 2: listen to anybody else, Like she's such a world builder
Speaker 2: as a writer, yeah, and as a person who's made
Speaker 2: creation like her.
Speaker 3: Life that.
Speaker 2: She can't She doesn't really collaborate and is not and
Speaker 2: I mean this in a nice way, is like not
Speaker 2: super interested. Like the fact that she could never she
Speaker 2: never knew what Helen really thought about her stuff is
Speaker 2: to me kind of indicative of the fact that she's
Speaker 2: not super interested in anybody else's opinion.
Speaker 1: And maybe that she's.
Speaker 2: Just coming around now to realizing that needs to change
Speaker 2: on some level. Maybe she hasn't got there yet, but
Speaker 2: she's been faced with the with the outcomes of her
Speaker 2: not listening to anybody. She's not yes on any level,
Speaker 2: so she's she's having to She's realizing I think an
Speaker 2: important fact, which is she can't do it alone anything,
Speaker 2: And yet same as everybody here, I am fascinated to see.
Speaker 1: I think Manusa's is gonna scare her.
Speaker 3: I think, do you think that he is going to
Speaker 3: be the main thing we deal with in the finale
Speaker 3: or do you think that we are gonna get more
Speaker 3: information about the Hive Mind. I think at this point
Speaker 3: I would rather they keep the reveal of the true
Speaker 3: nature of the Hive Mind till season two because I
Speaker 3: think the characters we have, I am so engaged with them,
Speaker 3: and this show is doing something that I've always hoped
Speaker 3: genre shows would do more. And what is one of
Speaker 3: the things that we have shouted out about the contemporary
Speaker 3: ideas of the MCU and the DCU, which is like,
Speaker 3: what would it be like to be a you know,
Speaker 3: quote unquote normal person when this is happening? And I
Speaker 3: think I could legit watch three, four or five seasons
Speaker 3: of this and probably never need to know what the
Speaker 3: Hive Mind really wants, because what's interesting is just seeing
Speaker 3: people navigate this new world order and this new space
Speaker 3: that's so out there and can be so huge because
Speaker 3: of the Apple budget. You can have drones flying around
Speaker 3: to deliver, you can have crazy fireworks. You know this
Speaker 3: show exactly. Okay, let me ask you guys about this
Speaker 3: specific episode. Some of the discourse it's been quite a
Speaker 3: divisive one. That has been the conversation of nothing really
Speaker 3: happens in the episode, and lots of people are saying,
Speaker 3: I love that it's super radical. It feels like we're
Speaker 3: getting so much character work. It's a tone poem. And
Speaker 3: some people are like, you just burned like an hour
Speaker 3: of my time. How do you guys feel like about
Speaker 3: this episode in an era where we do only get
Speaker 3: eight episodes a season.
Speaker 1: I'm okay with.
Speaker 2: It, and I'm like you, I feel like the ambiguous
Speaker 2: Here's what's interesting to me about the ambiguousness of the
Speaker 2: Hive Mind and answers with regards to the Hive Mind.
Speaker 2: They don't know either, Like we find out two episodes
Speaker 2: ago that they only found out, you know whatever, twenty
Speaker 2: four hours before in fictional time before the scene, that
Speaker 2: they need stem cells to infect the survival, Like they
Speaker 2: are also learning they don't have any other like orders
Speaker 2: from whoever sent the message all that happened. Yeah, they're
Speaker 2: learning on the job, whatever the job is. They've basically
Speaker 2: been turned into this hive mind and given no other instructions.
Speaker 2: So what's interesting to me is that the fact that
Speaker 2: the antagonist, if that is, if the hive mind is
Speaker 2: can truly be called the antagonist, also doesn't have any answers.
Speaker 2: They also don't.
Speaker 1: Know what they're doing.
Speaker 2: I like that they are also researching and learning on
Speaker 2: the job, So to me.
Speaker 1: That helps.
Speaker 2: There's no like mystery at the end. There's no like
Speaker 2: secret answer in a chest somewhere in a secret cave.
Speaker 3: It doesn't feel like a puzzle.
Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like same way.
Speaker 3: It feels like you're getting something from watching. Even just
Speaker 3: if this season, if Vince decided that he wanted to
Speaker 3: end this season with the end of Carol's story, which
Speaker 3: I don't think he's gonna do, because I think this
Speaker 3: could become an Emmy and Awards season just blow out
Speaker 3: every season, so I'm sure Apple will keep the same cost.
Speaker 3: But even if he did want to do like an
Speaker 3: anthology and we went to a totally different person, I
Speaker 3: would be fine. I'm intrigued in looking at how people
Speaker 3: would survive a hypothetic or like this in such a
Speaker 3: different way than we've ever seen it before. It's such
Speaker 3: a unique take that I think it makes it worthwhile
Speaker 3: And we always argue that actually we need more slow
Speaker 3: episodes in TV. That was the joy of the twenty
Speaker 3: three twenty five episode season. You know, Ian, what do
Speaker 3: you feel about those criticisms, because I think you were
Speaker 3: on the same page as us, like this felt like
Speaker 3: an episode that was necessary and that worked even though
Speaker 3: it was a slower episode.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, I just want to say, like,
Speaker 5: have you watched any Vince Gilligan shows before, Like most
Speaker 5: of the shows are slow burn, Like Better Call Saul
Speaker 5: is a very slow burn, and it focuses more on
Speaker 5: the character moments and the relationships between the characters. They're
Speaker 5: obviously you know that we need some plot momentum. But
Speaker 5: I don't think this episode suffered from being a slower episode.
Speaker 4: I really enjoyed it. And I think we learn.
Speaker 5: More about Manusos and and what his beliefs are and
Speaker 5: his resolve, and I think that was really interesting. And
Speaker 5: then seeing Carol kind of, you know, continue on this
Speaker 5: emotional journey and have her maybe you know, come to
Speaker 5: this realization or shift in her stance. I think that
Speaker 5: was really interesting to see, and I think we eat
Speaker 5: an episode like this to set up, you know, the
Speaker 5: final two episodes where I assume, you know, Carol and
Speaker 5: Zosher are going to rekindle this relationship. There's that's going
Speaker 5: to be interesting to see. Is Carol take a different
Speaker 5: approach or how is she going to be coming out
Speaker 5: of this isolation and depression, and then leading into the finale,
Speaker 5: you know, when Carol and Manusso's finally do meet, Like,
Speaker 5: now that Carol has had this paradigm shift a little bit,
Speaker 5: how is that going to go when they finally do
Speaker 5: meet up. So, I think to set up those beats
Speaker 5: at the finale, we needed this episode, and you know,
Speaker 5: I just don't think it would work without it. So
Speaker 5: I personally love the episode, and I don't understand the
Speaker 5: criticism that it's.
Speaker 4: It was boring or too slow. It's good TV.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What I love about it, to your point is it's
Speaker 2: basically set up a be careful what you ask for
Speaker 2: for Carol. Yes, Carol spent the entire season since this happened,
Speaker 2: pleading with any of the survivors to listen to her
Speaker 2: to pay attention.
Speaker 1: This is terrible. What's happening. We need to do something.
Speaker 2: Won't somebody step up and help me as we try
Speaker 2: to save the world.
Speaker 1: Well, someone has heard the call.
Speaker 3: Now and what does that look like?
Speaker 2: And what does that look like? And I don't think
Speaker 2: she's gonna be happy with any of the solutions that
Speaker 2: Manuso's is gonna be willing.
Speaker 1: To offer her.
Speaker 3: Well, I also like, I got I gotta ask, like,
Speaker 3: is the next episode are they gonna because we've got
Speaker 3: two more till the phinmale to seven, then we have
Speaker 3: eight and nine, Right, is the next episode gonna really
Speaker 3: like connect with Soosha and Carol and have this emotional
Speaker 3: base for that relationship and then see Manusos get there
Speaker 3: in the finale and that be a huge conflict.
Speaker 4: That's what they're setting up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do worry that Zosha will die. I think
Speaker 2: Carl has to wonder about.
Speaker 3: Anything to stop her dying because she is now her
Speaker 3: one human connection. But I also feel like Vince has
Speaker 3: the chops for like a thirty five to fifty five
Speaker 3: minute episode next week that just makes us so invested
Speaker 3: in Carol and Zosha and also like carrols Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: to then really make that kick home in the finale. Also,
Speaker 3: Carol's trauma that she's been through is so horrendous with
Speaker 3: the with the conversion camp, and I think that we're
Speaker 3: going to get more understanding of that. And also I
Speaker 3: just had a realization that could be a potential issue
Speaker 3: between Manuso's and Carol because.
Speaker 1: If he is indeed very religious, if he's.
Speaker 3: Very religious and Carol has the history with the conversion camp,
Speaker 3: I think it's just going to be so interesting thing
Speaker 3: to see how those plot lines tie together. And I
Speaker 3: really do think that Vince has got the chops. I mean,
Speaker 3: the show has not even ended yet and it's almost
Speaker 3: people's best.
Speaker 1: He's he's a master.
Speaker 2: Okay, quick quick quick question to end with, why hasn't
Speaker 2: Carol asked the Hive mind to just be like, listen,
Speaker 2: I've heard the message on the phone call so many times.
Speaker 2: Just make it or just immediate beep to the message recording.
Speaker 1: Right, I got it.
Speaker 2: I know that you're you have to take space, fine,
Speaker 2: just immediately go to.
Speaker 5: The beep that happens. I'm like, we know what the
Speaker 5: recording says, like at least cut away or like we
Speaker 5: don't need to hear.
Speaker 4: The whole thing.
Speaker 5: I think Vince is trolling the audience because, like after
Speaker 5: the second episode of that, I was like, come on,
Speaker 5: we know what the records.
Speaker 3: To feel the same desperation and isolation as Carol. Vince
Speaker 3: is working. I don't need to so that. Jason, you
Speaker 3: do raise a good point. How specific and like annoying
Speaker 3: can you get with your request because Carol's has been
Speaker 3: to the general quite simple so far. It's mostly like
Speaker 3: food groceries, but like can you call them and be like, hey,
Speaker 3: I want my house painted the outside painted pink? And well,
Speaker 3: I think you know, I think you could do it.
Speaker 3: I think can you change this voicemail message is too
Speaker 3: long for me? Like, I would love to know if
Speaker 3: you're not Carol, what they will do for you. Well,
Speaker 3: I guess we've seen with someone like Diabot, who has
Speaker 3: you know, everything that everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of Carol's like actions in this
Speaker 2: episode or direct response to, like her meeting with Diabate,
Speaker 2: everything she learned and seeing the way Diabat lives. I
Speaker 2: think she was like I think with the gatorade, she's
Speaker 2: thinking like, fine, that's what you guys want to do
Speaker 2: you guys want to just like take orders like mindlessly, Well,
Speaker 2: this is what I want. I want the most specific
Speaker 2: gatorade order ever, and then it when it doesn't meet my,
Speaker 2: uh my exacting request, I will complain about it because
Speaker 2: I guess that's what you want, right, you want that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's this kind of like it's this petulance of you know,
Speaker 2: thrashing around trying to grapple with the way the world
Speaker 2: is now and seeing other people somehow. I mean, it
Speaker 2: must be infuriating right to look at Diabat and think, Jesus,
Speaker 2: does he just have no.
Speaker 3: Worry?
Speaker 1: Does he have no concerns?
Speaker 2: Like it I even when he said listen, I find
Speaker 2: it very distressing when I learned about the people protein
Speaker 2: Like even when just him saying that, I was like,
Speaker 2: oh good, he there is still like some yeah, there's something.
Speaker 1: It's not just this.
Speaker 2: Everything is great, but still it must be so troubling
Speaker 2: to her that she is just like filled with turmoil
Speaker 2: and everybody else seems to be having a great time.
Speaker 5: Everybody else is making lemonade out of lemons and curls
Speaker 5: like yeah, yeah, well.
Speaker 3: You guys have actually raised a great point where when
Speaker 3: it comes to kind of you know what the show
Speaker 3: is about. As you were talking about that, I was like, wow,
Speaker 3: I love TV because that is also just so relatable
Speaker 3: to like anyone who's had depression or like trad or
Speaker 3: like any kind of you know, those days where you
Speaker 3: just freeze and you can't do anything, and you're like, well,
Speaker 3: everyone's out and everybody's doing something fun, and if they're not,
Speaker 3: then they're working on their really important project. And what
Speaker 3: should I do. Well, I've got a day off. Should
Speaker 3: I work on my project, Should I work on my script?
Speaker 3: Should I play in my PlayStation? Should I just sit?
Speaker 3: And you end up sitting there and doing nothing because
Speaker 3: you're almost frozen by the choices. I also feel like
Speaker 3: we're getting an element of that with Carol. It's I mean,
Speaker 3: it's the most extreme version where it's this idea of
Speaker 3: like she sort of has everything at her fingertips, but
Speaker 3: she's so unhappy that it will never defeat the nWay.
Speaker 3: Everything's boring, everything's terrible, And obviously a lot of that
Speaker 3: does come from being alone, not having community. But there's
Speaker 3: just so many layers to this show, and I feel
Speaker 3: like the best thing about it is the more we
Speaker 3: talk about it, the more we kind of are always
Speaker 3: uncovering different little like thoughts and plot points and notions
Speaker 3: that might have gone into it. And that's the kind
Speaker 3: of TV that's going to last for years, because you're
Speaker 3: going to have people talking about the same things we're
Speaker 3: talking about and different things we haven't even thought about
Speaker 3: but in ten years, right, because the show is that unique.
Speaker 4: Yeah too too.
Speaker 1: I'm sad that we're approaching the finale, Yes.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, just to the last point you made, Rosie, It's
Speaker 5: it made me think too when I was watching the episode.
Speaker 5: It's like, what's kind of the point of having everything
Speaker 5: at your fingertips if you don't have anyone to share
Speaker 5: those experiences or moments with you. And that's what Carol,
Speaker 5: I think, is grappling with as well. She's like, Oh,
Speaker 5: they can make me e meal from any memory I've
Speaker 5: ever had, but like I'm sitting here alone in this
Speaker 5: empty restaurant eating it by myself, you know. So yeah,
Speaker 5: I think that it asked that interesting question too.
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's ask the tough Diabarte question. Because obviously
Speaker 3: we know we love Deabarte he has become a fan favorite,
Speaker 3: but also is, and we have talked about how well
Speaker 3: they've kind of balanced the everything that he's doing and
Speaker 3: the way the hive mind works is very murky right now.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, isn't there something really interesting
Speaker 3: about the fact that the character is having a great time,
Speaker 3: is just getting along, who's doing the thing, who's surviving.
Speaker 3: He is kind of doing that by ignoring the reality
Speaker 3: of what's going on. And the person who is real
Speaker 3: about the reality, Carol, is just the most fucking annoying
Speaker 3: person you've ever met. And isn't that like so real? Yes,
Speaker 3: like the person you want not always hear that everything's
Speaker 3: terrible and the system is fucked and you need to
Speaker 3: do this and you can't do it by your and
Speaker 3: that is very much what Carol's living in. And again,
Speaker 3: I think Vince is doing these really interesting things of
Speaker 3: making her unlikable, but she's also the most relatable human
Speaker 3: person on the show that you would hope you would
Speaker 3: at least be on her side of things, right, you'd
Speaker 3: at least be in that I want to save the
Speaker 3: world side of things.
Speaker 5: And it's also interesting just even thinking thinking about it now,
Speaker 5: what you just said, you know, diabate Carol and Manusos
Speaker 5: are alone. They are by themselves, whereas the other survivors
Speaker 5: have family members, you know, kids or siblings or partners
Speaker 5: or whatever, and so their experience and I'm hoping or
Speaker 5: curious to see if we'll check in with any of
Speaker 5: those people a little bit more for the rest of
Speaker 5: the season. But you know, the way they're handling things
Speaker 5: because they still they have family members and people that
Speaker 5: they care about from before the joining are still with them.
Speaker 5: The way they're handling things I think is going to
Speaker 5: be in start contrast to the way Manuso's, Carol and
Speaker 5: Diabate handle things.
Speaker 3: Not gonna be willing to risk their family right right.
Speaker 5: But then even with the three of them, like they
Speaker 5: even though they're all isolated and alone, they're handling it
Speaker 5: in three very different ways. Now, Diabate is like hedonistic,
Speaker 5: living it up. He has his hair rum, he's living
Speaker 5: his best James Bond life. Manusos is so hardcore, like
Speaker 5: I gotta save the world, fuck everybody, you know. And
Speaker 5: then Carol's somewhere in the middle. She started closer to
Speaker 5: Manusos and is maybe inching closer towards Diabate, and so
Speaker 5: I think that's also really interesting dynamic too.
Speaker 3: I'm starting to realize Ian that I think you may
Speaker 3: be putting together a team actually maybe that maybe it's
Speaker 3: not a conflict. I think that what you're bringing up
Speaker 3: here is really smart, which is the three people who
Speaker 3: are all dealing with this insanely differently are also the
Speaker 3: three people who are alone. We're probably gonna have to
Speaker 3: come together because obviously, yeah, nobody whose sister is part
Speaker 3: of the Hive Mind or whose kid is part of
Speaker 3: the Hive Mind is gonna want to have to, you know,
Speaker 3: give them off as part of the unjoining exactly.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think that that can maybe be the
Speaker 5: conflict for season two or something further down the road.
Speaker 5: But I think that sets up an interesting dynamic as well.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I mean, the show's been excellent. This season
Speaker 5: has been amazing so far. I just can't wait to
Speaker 5: see what happens in the next two episodes Vince's cooking.
Speaker 3: What's your biggest like crazy out there pitch for the
Speaker 3: last two episodes and the kind of big reveals that
Speaker 3: we'll get. What do you feel like after watching these episodes,
Speaker 3: digging into the season or season, where do you feel
Speaker 3: like it's going next?
Speaker 5: I think, yeah, like we've said, you know, the next
Speaker 5: episode I think is going to be this kind of
Speaker 5: reunion Carolyn Zosha. It's gonna be beautiful emotional moment. They're
Speaker 5: probably gonna connect, and then we're going to have the
Speaker 5: conflict where Manuso's comes in. He's like, wait, what are
Speaker 5: you doing hanging out with this hivelind woman? Like I
Speaker 5: thought you wanted to save the world? Are you one
Speaker 5: of them now too?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 5: So I think that's going to be the main conflict
Speaker 5: in the finale, and I think, thinking back to what
Speaker 5: we just said, I think setting up that maybe the
Speaker 5: three of them trying to have to do something and
Speaker 5: convincing the rest of the survivors for a future season.
Speaker 5: I could see that going somewhere. And I have to
Speaker 5: imagine in the finale to what we will learn a
Speaker 5: little bit more about maybe the origins of the Highmind virus,
Speaker 5: or find out a little bit more of what their
Speaker 5: ultimate end goal is or something. I don't think he's
Speaker 5: going to end the season without revealing a little bit more. Yeah,
Speaker 5: a taste or maybe the Carol's eggs will come into
Speaker 5: play in the finale and that'll be the big like
Speaker 5: thing like, oh, you know, they're going to use their
Speaker 5: eggs to turners.
Speaker 2: By the way, with regards to the that would be crazy.
Speaker 2: I do wonder now that Manusos is in hospital.
Speaker 4: Are they going to take some stem cells from him?
Speaker 1: I mean, like if he's just bleeding.
Speaker 3: You know, I know, like what if he says, like
Speaker 3: what if they say to him, oh, hey, do you
Speaker 3: accept medical care to save your life? And he says yes,
Speaker 3: and they count that as consent?
Speaker 5: Right, Because somebody in a discord brought up an interesting
Speaker 5: point where you know where it was the Grenade episode
Speaker 5: where Carol's in the ambulance with Zosha and they're you know,
Speaker 5: ask them like, do you want us to clean up
Speaker 5: your house? And they said she like kind of absent
Speaker 5: mindedly nodded yes, like not really paying attention, and they
Speaker 5: took that as her consenting. So like, it seems like
Speaker 5: their definition of consent can be kind of really loose
Speaker 5: depending on the context. So that is a good point, Rosie.
Speaker 5: They might just like take it from him while he's
Speaker 5: unconscious or barely conscious or something.
Speaker 3: Jason, you raised this, and I do think now this
Speaker 3: is very intriguing because what if they get the semstells
Speaker 3: and they join him, but then they choose to have
Speaker 3: like pretend that he's not joined, you.
Speaker 1: Know, would they do that?
Speaker 2: I don't really, I don't think they can do that,
Speaker 2: but I will say that it's interesting though. If we're
Speaker 2: right about the stem cells, once material genetic material is
Speaker 2: outside of the body, they don't have to theoretically they
Speaker 2: would not need to ask for permission exactly.
Speaker 1: So if they have.
Speaker 2: Manuso's in the hospital and they're saving his life and whatever,
Speaker 2: you know, in the process of that, they're taking blood
Speaker 2: or there's you know, flesh, or they need maveragery and
Speaker 2: so there's stuff you know on the side now that's
Speaker 2: not part of him. I do wonder if now they
Speaker 2: are able to infect him and if that and if
Speaker 2: in doing that the light bulb goes on for Carol
Speaker 2: that oh shit, my eggs.
Speaker 3: Right, yes, oh, a teaching lesson character. I could definitely
Speaker 3: see Manusos be that, especially because he went through it
Speaker 3: this episode like he fought for his life and he
Speaker 3: got his big episode.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 3: I can't wait, guys.
Speaker 1: Yes, I can't wait.
Speaker 2: Well, on the next episode of Extra Vision, we're diving
Speaker 2: into the season finale of it. Welcome to Darry and
Speaker 2: we eagerly await the season finale.
Speaker 1: Plurvis.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode, Ian, Rosie, thanks for joining us,
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, all of you.
Speaker 1: Goodbye bye, Thanks you.
Speaker 2: X ray Vision is hosted by Jasoncepcion and Rosie Knight
Speaker 2: and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abu Safar.
Speaker 3: Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wag.
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 2: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Speaker 3: Heidi our discord moderator.