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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: If you can't trust your doctor, who can you trust

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Speaker 2: the thought of a doctor hovering over your unconscious body,

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Speaker 2: you got to really trust that person, right.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at series XM

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Speaker 2: one eleven. First of all, take usten to our Freancy,

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Speaker 2: Casey and c.

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Speaker 3: According to this Denver police Alfi David, a woman met

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Speaker 3: up with Matthews after connecting with him on Hinge, a

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Speaker 3: dating app. They had brunch on a Sunday morning in January,

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Speaker 3: then walked to his West Denver townhouse. There, she said,

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Speaker 3: they hung out in his hot tub. Matthews later told

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Speaker 3: police they had consensual sex, but the woman says she

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Speaker 3: remembers none of that, has no recollection of having sex

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Speaker 3: with the doctor, only remembering finding herself hours later at

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Speaker 3: home with paramedics checking her out.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Did we mention the so called doctor she had a

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Speaker 2: date with is a leading cardiologist?

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Speaker 4: Wow?

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Speaker 2: Okay, what exactly is happening and what is hinge with me?

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Speaker 2: An all star panel to make sense of what we

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Speaker 2: know right now? First of all, Lee and Newbecker joining us,

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Speaker 2: a digital forensics expert President of Enigma Forensics. You can

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Speaker 2: find him at Leeneubecker dot com. Lee, thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us. What is hinge well?

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Speaker 5: Hune is one of many social dating websites out there.

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Speaker 5: Markets itself has been the last app you need that

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Speaker 5: you'll find someone and delete the app, love happily ever after.

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Speaker 2: Oh hey, that is a great marketing tool. Doctor Bethany Marshall,

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Speaker 2: psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Heels. You can find right,

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Speaker 2: Doctorbethanymarshall dot com. Don't pooh pooh online dating. My nephew

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Speaker 2: met his now wife online. He dated a lot of

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Speaker 2: other ladies he met online. They got married, They just

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Speaker 2: had their second son and bought a home, so that's

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Speaker 2: working out. However, you do meet a lot of nuts online, Nancy.

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Speaker 6: You have to have really good antennas when you go online.

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Speaker 6: But you're not all we're all not forensic experts like

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Speaker 6: our previous guest was. You know, I think of this

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Speaker 6: is this is a wonderful tool, a dating tool, right

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Speaker 6: And the more, as I say to my patients all

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Speaker 6: the time, the more tools you have in your toolbox,

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Speaker 6: the better. So if you're going to date, a good

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Speaker 6: tool is self love. A good tool is good judgment,

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Speaker 6: knowing to how to evaluate another person on a date, recept, generosity,

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Speaker 6: optimism towards the future. Knowing where to meet people is

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Speaker 6: an excellent tool, but this tool has become a feeding

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Speaker 6: ground for predators, crazies, people who want something other than dating.

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Speaker 6: And just a quick comment about that. What I hear

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Speaker 6: from my patients is that they don't know how to

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Speaker 6: distinguish between somebody who wants to go on a date

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Speaker 6: because they want a bright future with another person, or

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Speaker 6: somebody who's just looking for sex, somebody who just wants

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Speaker 6: to hook up, or somebody who just wants a friend

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Speaker 6: and this is their only way to make a friend.

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Speaker 6: So it's hard to ferret that out at the beginning,

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Speaker 6: let alone, if you're going to be on the date

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Speaker 6: with a sex predator or a monster.

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Speaker 2: Well wait a minute, wait a minute, lea meanbecker. Let

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Speaker 2: me follow up what doctor Bethany Marshall just said. Lee,

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Speaker 2: When you say that as a matter of perception anyway,

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Speaker 2: there's a big difference between, for instance, plenty of fish

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Speaker 2: and tender.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well you just have to you have to inspect

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Speaker 5: your fish before you you're real event Yes.

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Speaker 6: Yes, but plenty of hits of the dating site. Right, Yes,

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Speaker 6: that's another one.

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Speaker 2: But I'm saying is perceived as being about love and

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Speaker 2: relationships and finding your forever partner, as opposed to other

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Speaker 2: websites where it's basically a hookup.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, the a booty call.

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Speaker 2: I mean Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Why Bad

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Speaker 2: Looks Good that's a great name, by the way, and

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Speaker 2: author of Red Flags. She's at wendypatrickphd dot com and

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Speaker 2: she's the host of Today with Doctor Wendy at KC

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Speaker 2: b Q Wendy. There's a big difference, and here comes

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Speaker 2: the bride and a booty call.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly right. And some of these apps are geared

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Speaker 4: specifically to one group or the other. You've got e Harmon,

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Speaker 4: You've got Christian Mingle, You've got places where people are

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Speaker 4: supposedly looking for long term, committed relationships versus the hookup sites.

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Speaker 4: So absolutely looking at where somebody's posting, I mean they're

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Speaker 4: not cross posting date right.

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Speaker 2: You know, there are romantic slash let's get married websites,

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Speaker 2: and then there it's tender and others.

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Speaker 6: Buffy meets Bagel is one here in Los Angeles, Jay Date,

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Speaker 6: you know Nancy here. Here's the tricky thing is that

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Speaker 6: the people on the hookup sites don't want the other

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Speaker 6: people on the hookup sites, so they gravitate towards the

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Speaker 6: dating sites because those people, I think there's no value

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Speaker 6: judgment here. But those people are a little more optimistic.

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Speaker 6: They want to spend a little trying together, so they

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Speaker 6: gravitate towards the other sites, and then they've becometh hookup

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Speaker 6: people on a dating site.

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Speaker 4: They also want to exploit vulnerability. I agree exactly with

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Speaker 4: the to Bethannie. They want to exploit the vulnerability of

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Speaker 4: people honestly looking for a relationship because they're going to

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Speaker 4: be more open to it. So that's a great point

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Speaker 4: as well.

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Speaker 2: Also joining us Rachel Countryman, forensic nurse expert for Godoy

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Speaker 2: Medical Forensics. She's a sex assault nurse examiner. A saying

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Speaker 2: sex assault nurse examiner, Rachel, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Rachel.

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Speaker 2: You heard our friends speaking from Casey enc The woman

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Speaker 2: says she remembers nothing about consensual sex. She remembers meeting

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Speaker 2: up after a discussion or an interaction on Hinge dating app.

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Speaker 2: They go for what sounds like a nice day brunch

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Speaker 2: on Sunday morning, and then they walk to his West

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Speaker 2: Denver townhouse. They hung out in the hot tub. The

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Speaker 2: next thing she remembers is finding herself hours later at

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Speaker 2: home with paramedics checking her out. She has no recollection

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Speaker 2: of having sex with this top Denver cardiologist age thirty five.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like a wonderful, eligible bachelor. I mean, he's got

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Speaker 2: to be smart because he got through med school. He

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Speaker 2: apparently has all of his teeth and full insurance.

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Speaker 1: So go for it, ladies.

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Speaker 2: So she wakes up in her own home with no

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Speaker 2: recollection of what happened. So, Rachel Countryman, how do you

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Speaker 2: know if you have been raped if you can't remember it?

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Speaker 7: Well, Nancy, I think that we need to point out

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Speaker 7: here that you know, sexual assault is a crime of

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Speaker 7: violence against a person's body and their will. Right they can't.

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Speaker 7: They can have physical trauma and significant mental anguish and suffering,

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Speaker 7: and especially in situations like this. So she went to

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Speaker 7: this person's apartment that she obviously had some trust in,

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Speaker 7: and she doesn't know what happened. That right there, makes

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Speaker 7: someone less likely to report. They don't remember themselves what happened,

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Speaker 7: so how can they tell somebody else what happened to

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Speaker 7: them and be believed. So that's a huge part right there.

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Speaker 2: So why would she believe she had been raped? What

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Speaker 2: would lead a victim to believe they had been raped

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Speaker 2: when they can't remember anything?

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Speaker 7: Well, I think that victims report and end up going in. Remember,

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Speaker 7: a sexual assault forensic exam also known as a safe

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Speaker 7: is a medical exam first and foremost, And it's not

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Speaker 7: going to show a proof that there was somebody was assaulted,

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Speaker 7: and it's not going to show proof that they were

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Speaker 7: even penetrated. I think the purpose of the exam is

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Speaker 7: to make sure they're okay and possibly collect some evidence

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Speaker 7: and that could possibly id the assailant. And you know,

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Speaker 7: with DNA results and stuff, we can then you know,

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Speaker 7: determine that there was sexual contact that occurred some things.

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Speaker 2: Wendy Patrick is California prosecutor, having prosecuted media rapes and

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Speaker 2: sex assault cases. Wendy, in addition to what the rape

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Speaker 2: victim says, there are other ndisha of rapes, such as

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Speaker 2: you wake up in your underwear is on backwards or

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Speaker 2: inside out.

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Speaker 1: You wake up and.

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Speaker 2: Your underwear is torn or your clothes are not back on.

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Speaker 1: You correctly.

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Speaker 2: Or you're missing an article of undergarment, your bra or

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Speaker 2: your underwear. You may find blood or sticky fluid, you

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Speaker 2: may suffer pain, all sorts of indisha that you were

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Speaker 2: raped and you can't remember it.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly right, and that's one of the reasons start

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Speaker 4: exams can be at tool, among others. As you know,

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Speaker 4: when it comes to a consent defense, which is often

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Speaker 4: the case in these I don't remember much type of

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Speaker 4: scenarios where somebody has been drugged or they've had too

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Speaker 4: much a drink, or one of the other things a

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Speaker 4: start exam can show is the type of contact nobody

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Speaker 4: would ever consent to. Anal injuries fall into this category

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Speaker 4: very frequently. So there's lots of reasons in addition to

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Speaker 4: what we just heard talking about those stacy and ada

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Speaker 4: can be collected, et cetera, that this can be one

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Speaker 4: of many tools to indicate unwanted sexual content.

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Speaker 2: So we hear what this woman is saying, and so

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Speaker 2: far a right case, we cannot make out. We know

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Speaker 2: a little bit about her, but what do we know

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Speaker 2: about him? Take a listen to Brian Moss at Case

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Speaker 2: and c.

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Speaker 3: The woman had two mimosas at breakfast, then another at

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Speaker 3: his home along with two shots of tequila. Doctor matthews

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Speaker 3: lawyer says to his client and the woman had consensuals

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Speaker 3: zacts on their first state that lifestyle can result in

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Speaker 3: buyer's remorse, jilted lovers, and tall tales. But the attorney

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Speaker 3: said it is not a crime.

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Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Christopher Gavin, breaking news reporter

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Speaker 2: for The Messenger at The Messenger dot com.

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Speaker 1: Christopher, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Buyers remorse that lifestyle can result in buyers remorse, jilted lovers,

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Speaker 2: and tall tales, but the lawyer says, it's not a crime.

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Speaker 1: Man. I would have thought long, at hard before.

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Speaker 2: I put that statement out there. So the defense says,

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Speaker 2: buyers remorse. What exacts actly does that mean? Christopher Gavin,

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Speaker 2: That's what this doctor has to say back.

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Speaker 8: Well, basically, you know that doctor Matthews had told police,

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Speaker 8: according to the Affidavid that to him and the woman

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Speaker 8: had consential sex. She vomited a few times after she

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Speaker 8: had some drinks. She offered her water but she declined,

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Speaker 8: and offered her a shower but she accepted, and he

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Speaker 8: claims that she was doing better after a while and

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Speaker 8: she called nouber and went home.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So doctor Messidy Marshall in that scenario that Chris Gavin

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Speaker 2: with the Messager accurately pointed out as having been the outline.

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Speaker 1: The good doctor gave.

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Speaker 2: Where does buyer's remorse that lifestyle can result in Buyer's

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Speaker 2: remorse jilted lovers and tall tales.

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Speaker 6: What he thinks he's the best thing out there?

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Speaker 1: But how can that resonate with anybody?

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Speaker 6: Hasn't it points to his psycho pathology.

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Speaker 2: Buyer's remorse I don't think ray allegations by a victim

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Speaker 2: or Buyer's.

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Speaker 6: Remorse, Nancy. This speaks to motivation on his part. He

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Speaker 6: thinks he has rationalized that he is the best thing

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Speaker 6: out there and that she wanted him and now she's

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Speaker 6: regretting it. But if you just think of the storyline

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Speaker 6: of what happened that night. He's a cardiologist, and then

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Speaker 6: he gives her water when she's thrown up three times.

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Speaker 6: I mean, we all know that she probably needed an

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Speaker 6: IV at that point, he puts her in the shower. Well,

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Speaker 6: that's not great. And then exactly and then she puts

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Speaker 6: her in an uber. We all know that even if

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Speaker 6: you go for a polenoscopy or any kind of medical

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Speaker 6: procedure where you are put under anesthesia. You're told to

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Speaker 6: have a familiar person drive you home, so he puts

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Speaker 6: her in uber and she's out of it. I mean,

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Speaker 6: it has wrong written all over the story.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think buyer's remorse is the wrong analogy.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's one way of putting it.

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Speaker 2: I think they stuck their foot right in their mouth,

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Speaker 2: and I'd like to stick it somewhere else. But I mean,

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Speaker 2: you at very best have sex with a woman. She says,

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Speaker 2: she recalls nothing of it, and wakes up, and the

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Speaker 2: EMTs are working on she, for whatever reason, believes she's

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Speaker 2: been raped. And the response is buyer's remorse, jilted lover,

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Speaker 2: oh h e double l noo. If the lawyer had

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Speaker 2: any brains, they would have said nothing. But if they

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Speaker 2: felt they had to speak, I would have exhibited caring

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Speaker 2: and sympathy for the female complainant instead of jilted.

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Speaker 1: Oh m hmm, what were you saying, Wendy Patrick.

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Speaker 4: You know the reason that's the wrong analogy is women

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Speaker 4: don't claim rape as the result of a bad date.

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Speaker 4: When you claim rape and you are interviewed and everything

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Speaker 4: that goes along with that. You're on trial and you're

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Speaker 4: in the spotlight, and that is not where sexual assault

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Speaker 4: victims want to be. It is a painful, difficult, challenging

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Speaker 4: process to work through some of the what goes on

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Speaker 4: after that. So I think what we're looking at here

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Speaker 4: is not knowing what happened, trying to figure it out,

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Speaker 4: and just being honest about what they do remember and

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Speaker 4: why they wouldn't have consented to some of what went next.

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Speaker 4: That's what seems to be the fact better.

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Speaker 2: Rachel Couchman joining us friends saying nurse and a saying

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Speaker 2: sex assault nurse examiner. Let's just go on what the

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Speaker 2: defendant said. Excuse me, the good doctor, Rachel. What would

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Speaker 2: a shower? What effect would a shower have on evidence

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Speaker 2: regarding a rape victims?

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Speaker 7: Well, the shower could wash away evidence. Touch DNA, you

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Speaker 7: know we have we are able to get DNA now

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Speaker 7: on touch liva. Depending on how much she bathed and

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Speaker 7: showered and washed those areas, potentially DNA could have.

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Speaker 2: Been washed away saliva, as Rachel Countryman points out, sperm

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Speaker 2: if it's on her body, pubic hare, which will be

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Speaker 2: part of a pelvic exam, the pubic hair of the

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Speaker 2: victim is combed with a special type of comb. It's

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Speaker 2: very fine to gather pubic hairs left by the rapist

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Speaker 2: on the victim. All sorts of evidence is gathered during

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Speaker 2: a pelvic exam, but a shower could get rid of

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Speaker 2: a lot of evidence. Even if sperm DNA is found

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Speaker 2: in her vagina or rectum, there's still the defense it

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Speaker 2: was all consensual. She can't remember what happened, so what

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Speaker 2: does that mean? What more do we know? Take a

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Speaker 2: listen to our friensy kc mc.

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Speaker 3: Matthews had a dating profile on the Hinge app in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty and connected with a woman we'll call Jane,

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Speaker 3: who went with him to his Uptown apartment. There, she says,

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Speaker 3: after minimal drinking, she blocked out, woke up naked on

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Speaker 3: the floor, and texted a family member, I think there's

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Speaker 3: a good chance something very bad happened to be The

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Speaker 3: next day, September twenty ninth, twenty twenty, she underwent a

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Speaker 3: rape exam and sent an email to Hinge about what

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Speaker 3: she says happened. We'll be taking immediate steps, wrote back Hinge.

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Speaker 3: We permanently banned him from Hinge. The company told her,

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Speaker 3: so is he is.

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Speaker 1: He banned from Hinge take a listen.

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Speaker 3: But four months later, as she was on the dating

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Speaker 3: app again, she again found his profile and again wrote

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Speaker 3: Hinge on January thirtieth, twenty twenty one, I was raped

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Speaker 3: after a first day with an individual I met and

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Speaker 3: communicated with by a Hinge. He still exists within your ecosystem,

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Speaker 3: she wrote, and is posing a potential threat to other

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Speaker 3: women within the Hinge community.

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Speaker 1: Their ban is essentially meaningless.

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Speaker 3: Eva Galprin is the director of cybersecurity for the Electronic

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Speaker 3: Frontier Foundation.

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Speaker 1: Whatever they did was clearly insufficient. It did not even

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Speaker 1: clear the most basic bar of what you want to

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Speaker 1: do when you want to ban someone.

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Speaker 2: So let me understand Christopher Gavin joining us from the Messenger.

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Speaker 2: This woman goes to Hinge, tells them what happened, and

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Speaker 2: they agree to quote ban him. But for most letter,

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Speaker 2: she checks and he's back. Do I have those facts correct,

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Speaker 2: Christopher Gavin?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, according to that TVs support, Yes, yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 5: I mean you have a problem if you're going to

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Speaker 5: ban someone. The principal ways they do are based on

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Speaker 5: an email and a phone number, and it doesn't take

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Speaker 5: but ten minutes to create a new email account by

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Speaker 5: a burner phone. But the only way these dating apps

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Speaker 5: financially have forced us is to use AI photo recognition

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Speaker 5: and id the purps based on their profile pictures. And

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Speaker 5: that doesn't appear to be happy.

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Speaker 2: Guys, you're hearing Leate Newbecker, digital forensics expert at Enigma Forensics,

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Speaker 2: where he is the president and CEO. You're saying, and

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Speaker 2: regular people talk, not technical digital talk, that it would

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Speaker 2: have been an easy thing for Hand to Banhand unless

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Speaker 2: he came back under a burger phone exactly.

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Speaker 5: And people who are doing bad things they find ways

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Speaker 5: to get around it. Even with photo detection. They can

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Speaker 5: alter photos, make photos unique so they can't be identified

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Speaker 5: as easily interesting.

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Speaker 2: But Hinge didn't do that. Okay, guys, take a listen

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Speaker 2: more of Brian mass.

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Speaker 3: After Jane's second report to Hinge in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 3: Hinge emailed her. It appears he created a new account

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Speaker 3: using completely different login credentials. We have now permanently banned

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Speaker 3: that account and taken additional steps to ensure that he

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Speaker 3: stays permanently off Hinge. But whatever steps they took clearly

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Speaker 3: didn't work. But according to text messages, between Matthews and

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Speaker 3: other women. He was back on the Hinge app again

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: The fact that he's back on a dating app is concerning,

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Speaker 2: and I certainly do not want to limit his freedom

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Speaker 2: of speech.

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Speaker 1: It's concerning because of this Listen.

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Speaker 3: He was back on the Hinge app again in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two and twenty twenty three, meeting more women like

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Speaker 3: this woman he went out with in January of this year.

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Speaker 9: I should have never ever even been able to match

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Speaker 9: with him, because he should have never been able to

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Speaker 9: make another account.

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Speaker 3: She says. After several drinks with Matthews at his home,

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Speaker 3: she blacked out and underwent a rape test next day,

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Speaker 3: which she says showed she had intercourse which she does

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Speaker 3: not remember.

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Speaker 2: To Christopher Gavin from The Messenger, let me understand, we

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Speaker 2: now have two victims saying essentially the same thing, except

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Speaker 2: the first one had drinks with him at Sunday brunch

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Speaker 2: and the other one had.

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Speaker 1: Drinks at home.

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Speaker 2: Is that the only difference except drinks at his home

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Speaker 2: not her home.

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Speaker 8: Well, I believe that.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, there were some drinks in the January case at

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Speaker 10: the back brunch, but there was also drinks, I believe

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Speaker 10: in both cases at doctor Matthewston's personal home.

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Speaker 2: That's really interesting that you said that, Chris Gavin to

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Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall.

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Speaker 1: I want to go into.

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Speaker 2: The dynamic of why you'd one half sex with a

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Speaker 2: basically unconscious person. But before I got to that, let

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Speaker 2: me ask you this. Do you see his mo unfolding?

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Speaker 2: If in fact these allegations are true, it has to

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Speaker 2: be at his home so he can control the arena,

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Speaker 2: he can control the crime, saying.

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Speaker 6: Nancy, absolutely, this, This is a well oiled machine at

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Speaker 6: this point. He knows where to control. For victims, he

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Speaker 6: probably knows based upon their response patterns, we know how

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Speaker 6: far he's going to get with them. Not to blame

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Speaker 6: the victim, but he probably has some pattern in his

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Speaker 6: own mind, even if it may not play out in reality.

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Speaker 6: He takes them to a public place where they drink

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Speaker 6: something so he can say, oh, they drank too much

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Speaker 6: when they were you know, out at brunch.

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Speaker 2: And there'll be survilla's video of them at brunch most likely, but.

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Speaker 1: For lunch. Yeah, go ahead.

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Speaker 6: Well, who knows what else is in his home? You know?

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Speaker 6: That's that's why I was wondering, you know, are there

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Speaker 6: is there a bondage kit?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 6: Is there? Remember the Max Factor heir when he was

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Speaker 6: raising victims, drugging them, but then he would take films

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Speaker 6: of them and then replay and replay them. So you know,

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Speaker 6: are these women being taped? You know what what is

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Speaker 6: he doing with that tape or with that footage? And

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Speaker 6: you know, I think you're right in his home. Other

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Speaker 6: than him taping them, there's not going to be any surveillance.

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Speaker 6: That's an excellent point. So he can do whatever he

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Speaker 6: wants while they're out of it and don't remember, and

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Speaker 6: he can basically gaslight and see nothing happened.

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Speaker 1: Winny Patrick, California prosecutor and author.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about a scenario not as complex as

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Speaker 2: what doctor Bethany Marshall just told us. I was thinking

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Speaker 2: of something more fundamental to keep the victim at his home,

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Speaker 2: control the crime, saying, you don't have to worry about

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Speaker 2: a roommate walking in. You don't have to worry about

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Speaker 2: does she live with her family, does she have children?

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Speaker 2: Of course, a lot of that he could determine in

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Speaker 2: their discussions on him, if they were, you know, going

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Speaker 2: back and forth in a sort of digital conversation. You

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Speaker 2: don't have to worry about her having Samie Elsviebia in

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Speaker 2: her home that she can then pull up and go, oh, look,

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Speaker 2: you raped me. There's not a dog bounding story that's

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Speaker 2: going to bite you in the rear end. There's all

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Speaker 2: sorts of factors that would make it more conducive to

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Speaker 2: a nefarious rape at his place.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly right, and it also forecasts the potential defense.

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Speaker 4: If you've got a stranger rape. Oftentimes you don't see

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Speaker 4: somebody picking up someone at the bar and going back

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Speaker 4: to the perpetrator's home because then the victim will know

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Speaker 4: who it is and where he lives. But if you

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Speaker 4: need on a dating app, you're not hiding identity. The

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Speaker 4: defense is going to be consent. So controlling the crime

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Speaker 4: scene avoids interruptions like Amazon deliveries, relatives, stopping over all

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Speaker 4: the types of things that you have no control over

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Speaker 4: because you don't know the person well enough, hence the unconsent.

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Speaker 4: And that's one of the things that really distinguishes the

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Speaker 4: case like this from a hookups at a bar where

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Speaker 4: there's no preconceived or pre existing relationship, even from a

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Speaker 4: dating app.

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Speaker 2: Now we've focused on the doctor. But what role, if any,

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Speaker 2: does Hinge play in this? And she remember so far,

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Speaker 2: only told you about two alleged to victims. Take a

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Speaker 2: listen to our cut fifteen.

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Speaker 9: If they had listened to the multitude of reports that

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Speaker 9: they had received about this person and just banned him

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Speaker 9: in the first place, I would not be sitting here

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Speaker 9: today having this conversation.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Matthews lawyer previously indicated his client as innocent. Hinge

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Speaker 3: said in a statement, what's been reported is horrible, and

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Speaker 3: they said they would assist law enforcement in any way

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Speaker 3: they can. Important to note here Hinge would not answer

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Speaker 3: our repeated questions about how, after this doctor was reportedly

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Speaker 3: banned from their website, how he managed to maintain a

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Speaker 3: Hinge dating profile for several years.

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Speaker 1: I bet they aren't.

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Speaker 2: I bet they are not saying it weren't so Lean Newbecker.

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Speaker 2: How did he stay on Hinge?

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Speaker 8: Well, I think we've got to.

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Speaker 5: Be a little bit fair here because the notion that

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Speaker 5: any app like hins as total control over the users

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Speaker 5: is a little on. Sure is very easy to create

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Speaker 5: a new account, new credentials and log and what I

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Speaker 5: don't know if him just doing Now are they tracking

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Speaker 5: the photos because once a perpetrator is identified, they can

439
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 5: take the digital hash values of those photos and identify

440
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 5: any other user transmitting this. And we don't know if

441
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 5: they're doing that or no. If they are, they're doing

442
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 5: the best they can do.

443
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 2: Good point, very good point, Lee Nee Becker. Okay, So

444
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: let's just pretend for arguments say that Hinds did everything right,

445
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: which I'm not sure I believe that.

446
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: But how is this guy still practicing? Take a listen

447
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: to our friends at nine Knews.

448
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 3: The woman says she decided to go forward with the

449
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 3: criminal case after she learned that a family friend had

450
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 3: gone on a day with doctor Matthew several years ago

451
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 3: and said she had a similar experience.

452
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 11: Please say the first came forward. She accused of cardiologist

453
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 11: Steven Matthews of sexually assaulting her after meeting him on

454
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 11: the dating app Hinge. On March twenty eighth, the Denver

455
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 11: prosecutors charged him with three felony accounts of sexual assault.

456
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 11: One month later, Matthews was still able to renew his

457
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 11: license to practice medicine.

458
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: So what echo ink you jink?

459
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 2: One alleged victim actually is in contact with a family

460
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: friend who went through an almost identical alleged sex assault

461
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: by this cardiologist.

462
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: So the police go.

463
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 2: Ahead and they charge him. But yet one month later,

464
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 2: he still is able to renew his practice, his medical

465
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 2: license to continue to practice.

466
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: More from nine News.

467
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 12: I'm shocked and dismayed as a person, as a FI

468
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 12: physician and as a colleague who practices in cardiology.

469
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 11: That I News medical expert doctor poll Coley thinks there

470
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 11: needs to be more oversight. She knows how renewals work

471
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 11: because she submitted her application last mind, it was.

472
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 12: A less than five minute process. Uh, and it didn't

473
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 12: require me to talk about my criminal convictions or mental

474
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 12: health changes. It was just a blanket sort of a question.

475
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 12: Have there been any changes that you would like to report?

476
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 11: Yes, that you would like to report. According to a

477
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 11: notice by DORA, the Department of Regulatory Agencies, it's up

478
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 11: to the applicant to list any arrests or churgeons.

479
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 12: Which physician would voluntarily give up information when they haven't

480
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 12: yet been convicted, only been charged that may put their

481
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 12: license at risk.

482
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: Wow, So the whole process is basically anything you want

483
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 2: to tell us, And of course he says no and

484
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: continues to practice medicine. Having one lady after the next

485
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: undress in front of him and more listen.

486
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 11: Dora says, the Medical Board renews a license unless it's

487
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 11: under suspension or an applicant reports something bad about themselves.

488
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 11: Two weeks after the board approved Matthew's application, the Denver

489
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 11: District Attorney charged him again for assaulting nine more women.

490
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,719
Speaker 12: But it should really be some sort of a bigger

491
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 12: systemic thing that if there is a criminal charge against you,

492
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 12: that should be reported to Dora directly, you know, So

493
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 12: it's a way to protect our patients.

494
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 11: Matthews agreed with the board to not practice right now

495
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 11: after the additional charges.

496
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: After the additional charges crime stories with Nancy Grace, how

497
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: many more women did he meet? I mean, doctor Bethany.

498
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: Not only is social media completely failing these women, I'm

499
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: talking about hinge unless, as Neebacker says, they did everything

500
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 2: possible to keep them off their.

501
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: Site, which I doubt, but that's what they're saying.

502
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: And now the Medical Board, who does no investigation at all,

503
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: I mean, to get a law license, they even would

504
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: go and talk to neighbors to find out about you.

505
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 6: Nancy. The Board of Behavioral Science Examiners here in California,

506
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 6: which I have to be is a board that renews

507
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 6: my license psychoanalyst, Marriage and Family Therapists LCSW clinical psychologists.

508
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 6: You have to answer a questionnaire in which you are asked,

509
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 6: have you ever been arrested? And then they investigate. The

510
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 6: board is connected to the DMV, it's connected to I

511
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 6: don't know whatever edge agency it is, or they would

512
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 6: check to see if you've been arrested. It's not a

513
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 6: self apporting family. You're required to self report. But then

514
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 6: if you haven't arrested and you don't report it, then

515
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 6: that's a whole nother offense because you've purgured yourself and

516
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 6: you likely will never get your license renewed again. And

517
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 6: you know Nancy, and another aspect of this, So many

518
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 6: people came in contact with this guy as a physician

519
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 6: who maybe should have had some suspicion he knew how

520
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 6: to drug these women so that they didn't remember what

521
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 6: was happening. And I know there are you know, the

522
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 6: common date rate drugs, but I'm sure she had friends

523
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 6: who were pharmacists, who were anesthesiologists, people who are experts

524
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 6: in you know, administering profile fill and things like that,

525
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 6: and so kind of wonder. It's not just the licensing board,

526
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 6: it's this broader network of professionals that should be holding

527
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 6: each other to a higher standard. This is not just

528
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 6: your neighbor, this is your guy. You're in the o.

529
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: R with guys.

530
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: Ultimately, do we ever find out how many a victims

531
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: have been raped by this top Denver cardiologist? Drug and

532
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: rape allegedly. Take a listener hour cut nine our forensic

533
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: casey and C.

534
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: The new cases have been sealed, but core records show

535
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: two of the new cases against Matthews involve a ledged

536
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: sexual assault. The other seven charge him with second degree

537
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: assault for allegedly drugging women. Within hours, Denver police descended

538
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 3: on Matthew's West Denver townhouse, executing a search warm and

539
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 3: seizing evidence.

540
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: More from nine Knews.

541
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 13: Stephen Matthews remains in custody pending his criminal case involving

542
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 13: dozens of charges, including sexual assault. Matthews faces fifty one

543
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 13: criminal charges after thirteen women came forward.

544
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: And of course, guys. He is claiming that he is

545
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: not guilty, but this really brings back memories another well

546
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: known person charged with a similar crime.

547
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: Take listen to our cut thirty.

548
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 14: Bill Cosby called me out of the blue and he said,

549
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 14: can you come by and see me? And I was like,

550
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 14: of course. I went up to his hotel and I

551
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 14: was alone. He talked about, let me see what type

552
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 14: of acting skills you have. I want you to improv.

553
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 14: And as I tried to do improv be fixed a drink,

554
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 14: I noticed myself getting a little dizzy.

555
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: And more, guys, you were just listening to our friends

556
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: at doctor Phil take a listen to ABC.

557
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 15: Cosby was convicted of drugging and sexually assaulting Andrea Constant

558
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 15: at his home.

559
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: The court will now also.

560
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 15: Revisit the judge's decision to allow five other women to

561
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 15: testify about Cosby giving them drugs.

562
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: You know to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, Doctor Bethany,

563
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: what is the psychopathy behind someone that enjoys raping a

564
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 2: lady while she is completely unconscious, drunk or drugged.

565
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 6: We know about perversions is that when you have a perversion,

566
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 6: you are sexually excited by anything other than the other

567
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 6: person's personality. You might be as stimulated by let's say,

568
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 6: only pictures, or being stomped on by high heels, or

569
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 6: being whipped, or maybe by children stimulated sexually by children,

570
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 6: or rubbing up against unsuspecting people in public, fraudism, exhibitionism, voyeurism.

571
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 6: But boy, you do not want to relate to another

572
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 6: person in terms of who they are, with thoughts and

573
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 6: feelings and emotions of their own. And that's one of

574
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 6: the ways we diagnose perversions in clinical practice is the

575
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 6: person is excited by an aspect of sexuality, but not

576
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 6: by the person. They want that person to be dead, gone,

577
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 6: an object when.

578
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 2: You know, not a real person, Doctor Bethany, before I

579
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: went out of time, I want to fall up on something,

580
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: you said, Christopher Gavin with the Messenger. One accuser says,

581
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: at least one that we know of, says Matthew sent

582
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 2: her photos of her naked in the hot tub after

583
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: she refused to see him again. Another says she woke

584
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: up with bite marks on her arms. What can you

585
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: tell us about allegations of revenge porn?

586
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 8: Those are somethings that came up in the Affidavid. That's

587
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 8: kind of all we know right now in terms of

588
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 8: how those photos might have been distributed, that doctor Matthew's

589
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 8: alligedly sent them back to the woman, we don't know

590
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 8: if they had appeared anywhere else, which I think bench

591
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 8: Porno would imply. But that's all we know right now.

592
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 2: So what do you think about that, doctor Bethany alleged

593
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: photos and videos taken of the victims.

594
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, I think in that case, whatever he

595
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 6: can do while they're unconscious and it's outside of their

596
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 6: awareness is going to steal him. Minute they start to

597
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 6: wake up and become conscious, he probably loses interest in them,

598
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 6: other than if he can use the revenge porn to

599
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 6: lure them back in, render them unconscious, and then do

600
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 6: whatever he wants to do with them again. And Nancy,

601
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 6: you know, I'm scared to think about what he did

602
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 6: do to them when they're out. I mean, we know

603
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 6: about the bitemarks, we know about all of the other

604
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 6: things that the reporter just now mentioned, what else, you know,

605
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 6: bringing out their perse stuff?

606
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 4: And I think that's a great point because one of

607
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 4: the ways we can answer that is to what else happened?

608
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 4: Is when you have a classic case.

609
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 8: You know, I.

610
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 4: Normally say patterns make the predator, but after listening to

611
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 4: doctor Bethany, I'd say patterns make the perversion. But if

612
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 4: that pattern includes filming when the search warrant was served,

613
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 4: they may turn up some of the evidence about what

614
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 4: else happened, what happened to each of them, What are

615
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 4: the similarities. You know, there's safety in numbers. We've had

616
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 4: a number of women that have come forward, But for

617
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,040
Speaker 4: other victims that are out there, you know, silent, this

618
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 4: is not golden and this may encourage them to find

619
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 4: their voice. Maybe there'll be more allegations in the future

620
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 4: once they find some of this footage Lee and Niebecker.

621
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 2: Is it possible that any evidence is going to be

622
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 2: discovered through digital seizure?

623
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 5: Well, certainly, if police seizes his cell phone in his computer,

624
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 5: it's highly likely that he has images of victims on

625
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 5: the computer, and they may be able to identify other

626
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 5: people that were perpetrated and trace those leads. Same thing

627
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 5: with Hinge. Hinge may have a history of all the

628
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 5: people he communicated with, and they may have that data.

629
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 5: So we don't know exactly what police have or have

630
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 5: not done, but I would fully expect it with the

631
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 5: rest they would want his computer in a phone so

632
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 5: that they could identify other other victims.

633
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: More from nineties.

634
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 13: Stephen Matthews remains in custody pending his criminal case involving

635
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 13: dozens of charges, including sexual assault. His attorney entered.

636
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: A policeman and at this time on behalf of Dr Matthews,

637
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 3: wo'll be entering that he'll deeply announced to set promotions

638
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 3: in trial.

639
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 13: After that, the judge set a trial date for March fourth,

640
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 13: which could take up to three weeks.

641
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: If you have information regarding the case of doctor Stephen Matthews,

642
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 2: top Denver cardiologist, please call seven two zero nine one

643
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 2: three two thousand repeat seven two zero nine one three

644
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: two thousand.

645
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: Goodbye, friend,