WEBVTT - Turning Waves Into Electricity 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:25.396 Pushkin. Solar power and wind power are amazing, but and 0:00:25.596 --> 0:00:28.116 we talked about this recently on the show, they have 0:00:28.196 --> 0:00:32.556 this major flaw. They're intermittent. The sun doesn't always shine, 0:00:32.836 --> 0:00:36.236 the wind doesn't always blow. This is a fact you 0:00:36.316 --> 0:00:39.116 might reflect on as you are gazing out at some 0:00:39.316 --> 0:00:44.396 majestic vista, maybe you're on a bluff overlooking the sea, 0:00:44.476 --> 0:00:49.236 and then you notice something. The waves they never stop. 0:00:49.996 --> 0:00:53.196 They may be bigger or smaller, but they're always there. 0:00:54.196 --> 0:00:56.916 If only there were some way to capture the energy 0:00:57.156 --> 0:01:01.436 that is right there in those waves. This is not 0:01:01.516 --> 0:01:04.276 a new idea. People have wanted to do this for 0:01:04.516 --> 0:01:09.076 literally hundreds of years. Unfortunately, though, it's not as easy 0:01:09.196 --> 0:01:12.036 as it sounds. There are a lot of problems to solve. 0:01:13.116 --> 0:01:18.036 But sometime, probably in the next few weeks, a tugboat 0:01:18.156 --> 0:01:22.476 will pull a yellow, thirty foot long wave energy converter 0:01:23.036 --> 0:01:26.076 out of Honolulu Harbor and around to a mooring on 0:01:26.116 --> 0:01:29.436 the north shore of Oahu. They're a crew of engineers 0:01:29.516 --> 0:01:32.676 will basically plug this thing into a cable on the 0:01:32.716 --> 0:01:36.316 ocean floor, and if everything goes according to plan, it 0:01:36.396 --> 0:01:45.596 will start producing electricity. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is 0:01:45.596 --> 0:01:49.196 what's your problem. My guest today is Tim Munden, chief 0:01:49.196 --> 0:01:53.916 technology officer at Oscilla Power. Tim's problem is this, how 0:01:53.956 --> 0:01:56.916 do you turn the waves in the ocean into electrical power. 0:01:58.756 --> 0:02:02.116 One of the interesting things to me about your field 0:02:02.676 --> 0:02:06.156 is it seems really hard, right. I mean, it's been 0:02:06.196 --> 0:02:09.516 this period, the twenty or so year as you've been 0:02:09.556 --> 0:02:12.796 in the field, it seems like wave powers has been 0:02:12.796 --> 0:02:15.036 like one challenge after another. I don't know. I mean, 0:02:15.036 --> 0:02:17.636 this is me not knowing much about it, but well, 0:02:17.796 --> 0:02:20.396 you know that's true. But it's not just since I've 0:02:20.436 --> 0:02:22.196 been in the field. It's been a lot longer than that. 0:02:22.276 --> 0:02:24.796 I mean, the first pattern on wave energy is was 0:02:25.316 --> 0:02:28.956 filed in I think seventeen ninety nine, which is kind 0:02:28.956 --> 0:02:31.436 of crazy. Really Yeah. I think a lot of the 0:02:31.516 --> 0:02:33.236 challenge comes from the fact that when you look into 0:02:33.236 --> 0:02:35.396 the ocean, you think, well, that's pretty straightforward. The waves 0:02:35.436 --> 0:02:37.036 just move up and down. We can just put something 0:02:37.036 --> 0:02:38.956 on it to be able to harness that energy, and 0:02:38.996 --> 0:02:41.756 you can all that energy is right there, you can 0:02:41.836 --> 0:02:43.756 see it where the water moves up and down. Right, 0:02:43.796 --> 0:02:46.596 But there are fundamental challenges that make that. We found 0:02:46.796 --> 0:02:50.436 that mean that that's not quite so straightforward. You know, 0:02:50.876 --> 0:02:53.956 you could create this long list, but in essence, there's 0:02:54.036 --> 0:02:57.036 a massive amount of energy in a relatively small space. 0:02:57.076 --> 0:03:00.396 It's the power density, and because it's so high and 0:03:00.556 --> 0:03:03.196 much higher than wind or solar, that it has a 0:03:03.196 --> 0:03:06.036 tendency to break things. And so you're not only to 0:03:06.116 --> 0:03:08.596 have to have something that's think efficient, but you also 0:03:08.636 --> 0:03:10.876 have to have some thing that's strong, and oftentimes those 0:03:10.916 --> 0:03:16.116 are in conflict with each other. Interesting, so if you 0:03:16.196 --> 0:03:18.996 build something that's tough enough to float out there in 0:03:18.996 --> 0:03:22.596 the waves and survive, it's not as good as capturing 0:03:22.636 --> 0:03:26.596 the energy and vice versa. Well, yeah, that's precisely correct. 0:03:26.996 --> 0:03:30.076 And so is there an underlying problem there that's a 0:03:30.076 --> 0:03:34.356 problem for anybody trying to turn ocean waves into electrical power, 0:03:35.036 --> 0:03:38.436 which is that the ocean moves in all different directions. 0:03:38.436 --> 0:03:40.636 It moves in threedom, up and down and side to side, 0:03:40.676 --> 0:03:43.396 and that's way more complicated than like having a windmill 0:03:43.436 --> 0:03:45.356 and the wind blows into it and it turns like, 0:03:45.516 --> 0:03:48.476 is that a starting problem is that the motion is 0:03:48.516 --> 0:03:51.076 in kind of all different directions in the ocean. That's 0:03:51.116 --> 0:03:54.116 exactly right. Yeah, it's more than that as well, And 0:03:54.156 --> 0:03:57.676 maybe maybe we can kind of simplify it in many ways. 0:03:57.556 --> 0:04:01.276 It's it is that energy doesn't flow in a linear fashion. 0:04:01.436 --> 0:04:03.836 It moves in a very different way. It actually moves 0:04:03.876 --> 0:04:07.156 in the particles. Ocean particles move in circles, so you 0:04:07.196 --> 0:04:10.556 don't have this linear flow particles like you would in wind. 0:04:11.316 --> 0:04:14.116 And so that's that's the first big problem. The second 0:04:14.156 --> 0:04:16.196 big problem as well is you know it's much denser, 0:04:17.076 --> 0:04:20.236 and so you have this you know, you have to 0:04:20.236 --> 0:04:23.796 manage that that high power density as well, and it 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:28.356 also high variability as well. On a very short time frame. Now, 0:04:28.476 --> 0:04:31.436 over longer time periods, waves are extremely consistent, you know, 0:04:31.476 --> 0:04:33.756 we have it's much more consistent than wind or solar. 0:04:33.876 --> 0:04:35.636 But over the course of a few seconds, you know, 0:04:35.716 --> 0:04:38.916 waves change quite a lot and you have to factor 0:04:38.956 --> 0:04:44.516 all of that into that capture part of the system. So, 0:04:44.636 --> 0:04:47.356 I know, you have these two different sort of models, 0:04:47.396 --> 0:04:50.556 these two different wave power generators. You're working on ones 0:04:50.596 --> 0:04:52.716 called the traiton. See it's a big one in a 0:04:52.756 --> 0:04:55.436 little one. It's the little one that's that's further along. 0:04:55.476 --> 0:04:58.196 That's the one in Honolulu right now, When exactly is 0:04:58.196 --> 0:05:00.476 that one going to be installed, going to be turned on? 0:05:00.636 --> 0:05:02.956 It's a really good question. We're currently waiting for. Were 0:05:02.956 --> 0:05:05.596 the windows. The site that we're using is it's a 0:05:05.836 --> 0:05:08.916 it's an energetic site, so the waves are big, which 0:05:08.916 --> 0:05:11.716 mean that it can sometimes be challenging for the sort 0:05:11.716 --> 0:05:14.356 of construction operations that need to go in order to 0:05:14.396 --> 0:05:17.556 make the site ready. And so we're waiting for the 0:05:17.636 --> 0:05:20.796 right window to be able to take that system around 0:05:21.476 --> 0:05:25.356 around Hawaii from Honolulu to Knahowe, which is on the 0:05:25.396 --> 0:05:28.636 north side of the island. So is that like next 0:05:28.676 --> 0:05:31.596 few weeks, next few months. Honestly, we're hoping that it 0:05:31.996 --> 0:05:33.756 is in the next few weeks. So let's talk. I 0:05:33.796 --> 0:05:35.716 know this is a smaller one and will that be 0:05:35.756 --> 0:05:41.596 the first real world, you know, out there generating power 0:05:41.676 --> 0:05:44.716 thing for you guys, for us, that's right, that'll be 0:05:44.756 --> 0:05:49.876 our first commercial type unit that will be plugged into 0:05:49.916 --> 0:05:54.916 the grid and generating power. We've done other ocean deployments 0:05:54.916 --> 0:05:56.996 before this point in order to be able to demonstrate 0:05:57.036 --> 0:05:59.676 elements of the technology. We've previously deployed out in New 0:05:59.676 --> 0:06:04.756 Hampshire and done ocean deployments there where we've been able 0:06:04.796 --> 0:06:07.516 to look at specific elements and prove that they work. 0:06:07.716 --> 0:06:11.116 But this will be the first integrated complete system connected 0:06:11.156 --> 0:06:14.156 to the grid. So let's talk about the device. The 0:06:14.196 --> 0:06:17.156 Traton is the little one that traton, see is the 0:06:17.156 --> 0:06:18.836 big one that traiton see sorry, the little one is 0:06:18.836 --> 0:06:21.796 the Triton. See. It's really innovatively named for the sea 0:06:21.876 --> 0:06:25.116 to stand for community. Yeah, we could, we could, we 0:06:25.116 --> 0:06:27.076 could have come up with something a little bit more exciting, 0:06:27.116 --> 0:06:30.076 but no, Triton is the name of the larger system. 0:06:30.836 --> 0:06:33.756 Triton is good. Trayton is very exciting. I think staying 0:06:33.756 --> 0:06:36.516 with that is smart. So this thing that is sitting 0:06:36.556 --> 0:06:38.716 there in Honolulu right now, that's about to get towed 0:06:38.756 --> 0:06:40.716 out and plugged in, for lack of a better word, 0:06:40.756 --> 0:06:42.476 tell me just what does it look like? How big 0:06:42.556 --> 0:06:46.396 is it? Of course, so that the Triton architecture, which 0:06:46.476 --> 0:06:51.196 all of our systems follow, comprises a floating object on 0:06:51.236 --> 0:06:54.676 the surface, a hole. Hanging beneath that hole is a 0:06:54.876 --> 0:06:59.396 ring that stays very still while the surface float is 0:06:59.396 --> 0:07:02.476 being moved by waves, and then those the relative motion 0:07:02.516 --> 0:07:05.596 of those two bodies is what generates power. So there's 0:07:05.716 --> 0:07:09.396 there's the piece that floats on the surface. The ones 0:07:09.396 --> 0:07:11.756 I've seen in pictures are yellow, just to help picture 0:07:11.756 --> 0:07:14.076 it right. And that's floating there on the surface, and 0:07:14.076 --> 0:07:17.156 there are a few was it three or four cables 0:07:17.276 --> 0:07:20.396 going down from the surface connecting to this ring that 0:07:20.476 --> 0:07:23.036 is suspended under the water below the floating part of 0:07:23.116 --> 0:07:26.116 the trayton, Right, that's correct. And because there are three 0:07:26.156 --> 0:07:29.596 lines that connect the float to the ring, all the 0:07:29.676 --> 0:07:33.196 motions that the that the waves move the float with 0:07:33.916 --> 0:07:38.076 translate into relative motion and that's what generates power. So 0:07:38.196 --> 0:07:39.876 let's talk that through a little bit. So you've got 0:07:39.876 --> 0:07:42.836 the three lines connecting the ring under the water to 0:07:42.876 --> 0:07:45.516 the thing floating, and what you're saying is when the 0:07:45.596 --> 0:07:48.236 when everything is floating side to side or kind of 0:07:48.276 --> 0:07:52.276 back and forth, that's all generating power. Right, So how 0:07:52.276 --> 0:07:55.876 does that work? What's actually happening? So what you say 0:07:56.036 --> 0:07:58.956 is absolutely correct. So all of that generates relative motion 0:07:59.116 --> 0:08:02.316 between the two bodies. So in the trayton ce that 0:08:02.396 --> 0:08:06.156 causes a drum to rotate that trum, that rotation of 0:08:06.196 --> 0:08:08.916 that drum turns a generator. It's quite straightforward. And that's 0:08:08.916 --> 0:08:11.636 all inside. That's all inside the thing that's floating on 0:08:11.676 --> 0:08:14.956 the surface. That's correct. The drum and the generator, that's 0:08:14.956 --> 0:08:17.836 all inside the floating thing. Yeah, that's right. So it all. 0:08:17.876 --> 0:08:21.796 It all happens inside there. There's a obviously there's power electronics, 0:08:21.796 --> 0:08:23.996 and there's electrical power systems that allow us to take 0:08:24.036 --> 0:08:26.156 that power and move it outside of the float. And 0:08:26.196 --> 0:08:29.676 there's just a cable that what runs under the ocean 0:08:29.676 --> 0:08:32.316 sea floor something. There's a line running from the from 0:08:32.356 --> 0:08:35.196 the triton to the floor to a cable. Yeah, it's 0:08:35.196 --> 0:08:39.596 basically it's almost as simple as that. Slightly slightly more involved, 0:08:39.636 --> 0:08:43.236 but not much more. Honestly, you would have it. It's 0:08:43.276 --> 0:08:45.156 actually no different than what would be done for off 0:08:45.236 --> 0:08:47.716 your wind project. They lay cables along the sea floor, 0:08:48.316 --> 0:08:50.876 they have an interconnection point, and then there's a cable 0:08:50.916 --> 0:08:53.196 that goes from our device down to the sea floor 0:08:53.236 --> 0:08:55.516 to connect into it. It's pretty straightforward. It's been done 0:08:55.516 --> 0:08:59.236 for many years. And so the triton, see the smaller 0:08:59.276 --> 0:09:02.396 one that's about to be deployed. How big is it? 0:09:02.476 --> 0:09:04.756 How big is the part that floats on the surface. 0:09:05.396 --> 0:09:07.996 It's ten meters long, which I think is about thirty feet. 0:09:08.196 --> 0:09:10.876 There are thirty plus fe okay, so pretty big, not 0:09:10.996 --> 0:09:15.236 that little. Yeah, and there's there's there's obviously space inside 0:09:15.356 --> 0:09:18.876 for all of the equipment, plus engineers themselves, obviously, you know, 0:09:18.916 --> 0:09:22.716 any access would be for maintenance. So this thing is 0:09:22.756 --> 0:09:25.996 there in Honolulu Harbor sort of any data. It sort 0:09:25.996 --> 0:09:27.876 of reminds me of like a rocket launch, right when 0:09:27.876 --> 0:09:29.676 they when they got the rocket ready to launch, and 0:09:29.676 --> 0:09:33.196 they're just waiting for everything to come into line right leg, 0:09:33.236 --> 0:09:34.556 and they put it off and they wait and then 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:36.676 they do it. So this thing that's going to happen 0:09:36.676 --> 0:09:39.156 any day, a ship is going to tow the trade 0:09:39.196 --> 0:09:44.596 and see out to see and hook it up. Basically, 0:09:44.596 --> 0:09:47.396 literally all that is needed is that tugboat will come 0:09:47.756 --> 0:09:49.436 hook up to the system, it will tow it to 0:09:49.436 --> 0:09:52.876 the site, we'll attach the moorings, and then it will 0:09:52.916 --> 0:09:55.636 be ready to go. It really just it's quite straightforward, 0:09:55.716 --> 0:09:59.476 but it is obviously requires certain CEA states. It couldn't 0:09:59.516 --> 0:10:03.116 go out in the highest waves because when you're towing something, 0:10:03.156 --> 0:10:05.996 you wouldn't want you any enormous storm to be breaking 0:10:05.996 --> 0:10:08.196 those toe lines and things like that, so there is 0:10:08.276 --> 0:10:11.636 a particular limit to that installation. Is there already a 0:10:11.636 --> 0:10:14.116 power line you know on the sea floor there? How 0:10:14.116 --> 0:10:16.476 does that piece of it work? Yeah, that's right. That's 0:10:16.516 --> 0:10:19.836 one of the main reasons why we're going here is 0:10:19.916 --> 0:10:22.956 because This is what's called the Wave Energy Test site. Again, 0:10:22.996 --> 0:10:26.676 it's another really interesting acronym. You know, WETS is what 0:10:26.716 --> 0:10:30.636 it's known as. And here is a good acronym. Here 0:10:30.756 --> 0:10:33.836 is a good acronym for a testing way. And there 0:10:33.836 --> 0:10:35.996 are other test sites as well, but for the moment, 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:39.316 this is the main one in the US. So they 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:44.316 already have a subseat cable. They have three berths, and 0:10:44.396 --> 0:10:47.396 so we're going into one that's thirty meters of water depth. 0:10:47.956 --> 0:10:50.156 And yes, it has a submarine cable coming out to it. 0:10:51.476 --> 0:10:54.956 And the idea is that the device, the tread and 0:10:54.996 --> 0:10:58.596 c will start generating power immediately. Tow it out, that's correct, 0:10:58.596 --> 0:11:02.796 plug it in, turn it on like a like a lamp. Yes, 0:11:02.996 --> 0:11:10.196 actually it is as simple as that. In a minute, 0:11:10.516 --> 0:11:12.716 how do we get from plugging in a prototype in 0:11:12.756 --> 0:11:25.276 Hawaii to wave generated power at scale? That's the end 0:11:25.276 --> 0:11:27.316 of the ads. Now we're going back to the show. 0:11:28.236 --> 0:11:30.516 Given that you're just now, you know, out in the 0:11:30.556 --> 0:11:33.316 real ocean for the first time. The thing I'm thinking about, 0:11:33.356 --> 0:11:36.036 given this conversation is like, oh, how how long is 0:11:36.036 --> 0:11:38.676 it going to last? How often is it going to break? Right? Like? 0:11:38.756 --> 0:11:40.796 These seem like super hard things you're just going to 0:11:40.836 --> 0:11:42.916 have to figure out by having your by having your 0:11:42.956 --> 0:11:44.956 products out in the ocean and having a break and 0:11:45.396 --> 0:11:47.596 understanding how they break and how to make them break less. 0:11:47.636 --> 0:11:49.756 And that's exactly right. We can only do so much, 0:11:50.476 --> 0:11:52.836 and yes, the whole point in testing is to be 0:11:52.876 --> 0:11:56.316 able to evaluate it. The ocean is an extremely harsh environment, 0:11:56.556 --> 0:11:59.356 you know. The sea water itself is you know, terrible 0:11:59.516 --> 0:12:03.676 on metal components, and we're trying to look at minimizing 0:12:03.676 --> 0:12:05.796 that there's fouling, which is there. There's all these lists 0:12:05.836 --> 0:12:08.596 of challenges that we spent a lot of time trying 0:12:08.636 --> 0:12:10.716 to mit to to this point, but we won't really 0:12:10.716 --> 0:12:13.356 know the impact unless we can take some solid, long 0:12:13.436 --> 0:12:16.116 duration time in the water, and that's where we're at 0:12:16.196 --> 0:12:19.876 right now. That being said, there is an enormous amount 0:12:19.916 --> 0:12:26.036 of experience within just companies in the marine space that 0:12:26.156 --> 0:12:29.356 have solved these challenges before. So half of the battle 0:12:29.436 --> 0:12:32.236 is finding out what the challenge is and then we 0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:34.276 can kind of reach out to these people to solve it. 0:12:34.356 --> 0:12:36.316 As we figure out what's going to break and then 0:12:36.396 --> 0:12:39.516 figure out who's fixed similar problems in the past, figure 0:12:39.516 --> 0:12:42.596 out how this sex. Yeah, and you mentioned that it's 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:45.556 at a test site. Is the sole purpose of this 0:12:45.876 --> 0:12:48.236 just to see if it works or does it have 0:12:48.316 --> 0:12:51.996 some additional function besides the sort of research piece. So 0:12:52.116 --> 0:12:55.276 we have hopes for what we can do with it 0:12:55.516 --> 0:13:00.436 after we complete this testing, although that's still to be determined, 0:13:01.116 --> 0:13:03.716 and so we're going to be testing it, checking everything 0:13:03.796 --> 0:13:06.756 is exactly as we intend it to be, and then 0:13:06.916 --> 0:13:09.876 once that testing is complete, the intent or the hope 0:13:10.196 --> 0:13:12.396 is to bring it back to Washington State where we 0:13:12.436 --> 0:13:17.436 can have it generate power to a native or tribal community, 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:23.836 ideally somewhere in Washington. Is there any particular reason that 0:13:24.476 --> 0:13:28.956 a native or tribal community is the optimal use case. Well, 0:13:29.996 --> 0:13:33.396 the Triton Sea itself is intended for one of two 0:13:33.556 --> 0:13:38.276 different markets. The community remote isolated communities, and in many 0:13:38.316 --> 0:13:42.276 cases these tribal communities are very isolated, they don't have 0:13:42.276 --> 0:13:45.516 good energy security, so this is an ideal solution for 0:13:45.556 --> 0:13:48.116 those that are on the coast. There is also the 0:13:48.436 --> 0:13:52.436 possibility for power at sea applications where you can provide 0:13:52.476 --> 0:13:56.556 power remote locations, very remote at sea locations where there 0:13:56.556 --> 0:13:59.516 are no other sources of power, so it might be 0:13:59.556 --> 0:14:02.756 a substitute for like places where the power goes off 0:14:02.756 --> 0:14:06.236 and people use gas generators regularly. Like it's sort of 0:14:06.276 --> 0:14:08.356 like instead of having to use the gas generator, you 0:14:08.356 --> 0:14:10.636 can use ther and see, is it something like that? 0:14:10.956 --> 0:14:12.596 Is it that kind of am I think of the 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:15.076 right scale? If I'm thinking that way, you are think 0:14:15.116 --> 0:14:16.996 thinking about it in the right way, especially when you 0:14:17.036 --> 0:14:20.636 consider that in many remote communities, getting fuel to these 0:14:20.636 --> 0:14:24.396 communities is absolutely critical. Yeah, you know, they can't always 0:14:24.916 --> 0:14:27.356 you know, you could be on an island somewhere, they 0:14:27.396 --> 0:14:29.716 could be you know, in remote Alaska. You know, just 0:14:29.756 --> 0:14:33.516 the cost of fuel transport is an order of magnitude 0:14:33.556 --> 0:14:36.436 more than the cost of the fuel itself, and so 0:14:36.516 --> 0:14:39.236 the actual cost of power generation in those places is 0:14:39.236 --> 0:14:42.516 exceptionally high. And it's also a very inefficient way to 0:14:42.556 --> 0:14:45.556 get power, right, burning fuel and a fuel generator is 0:14:45.996 --> 0:14:49.476 it's costly, and it's has a big carbon footprint, right, 0:14:49.636 --> 0:14:52.356 it has a big carbon footprint. That's correct for us. 0:14:52.476 --> 0:14:55.116 The goal here is is really doing that at a 0:14:55.276 --> 0:14:58.596 large scale. So you know, these small communities can be 0:14:58.636 --> 0:15:02.116 a real can benefit quite a lot from this technology, 0:15:02.396 --> 0:15:04.796 but we can all benefit a lot from being able 0:15:04.836 --> 0:15:08.236 to scale this up to multi mega systems. When you 0:15:08.356 --> 0:15:11.956 think kind of looking out further into the future, about 0:15:11.996 --> 0:15:15.996 getting from where you are now to having tritans, you know, 0:15:16.436 --> 0:15:20.676 a thousand full scale tritans floating in the ocean, generating 0:15:20.756 --> 0:15:24.836 real power, you know, at real scale. Like I'm sure 0:15:24.876 --> 0:15:26.996 there's a million things you have to figure out, But 0:15:27.156 --> 0:15:30.716 are there a few big, big questions, big problems in 0:15:30.756 --> 0:15:32.836 your head of things you have to solve to get 0:15:32.876 --> 0:15:35.716 from here to there? Not as many as you might think. 0:15:35.956 --> 0:15:40.316 One of our biggest challenges is that the manufacturing scale up. 0:15:42.116 --> 0:15:46.116 But much of the technology is resolved at this point. 0:15:46.156 --> 0:15:49.756 You know, we have an architecture that works, We have 0:15:50.276 --> 0:15:53.196 a system designed that works, and one of the key 0:15:53.236 --> 0:15:57.276 things with our approach is that it's scalable. We have 0:15:57.556 --> 0:16:00.476 one system that generates one megawat, you therefore have two 0:16:00.516 --> 0:16:03.596 systems they generate two megawords, and then you just you 0:16:03.676 --> 0:16:05.516 literally just keep adding it. And there are a few 0:16:05.556 --> 0:16:08.476 other companies doing what you're doing right at these government sites. 0:16:08.516 --> 0:16:11.356 As you said, there a few different berths. When you're 0:16:11.756 --> 0:16:14.276 when you're tray and see gets towed out in Hawaii, 0:16:14.276 --> 0:16:19.036 will there be other companies devices products floating out there 0:16:19.116 --> 0:16:25.476 next to it. Probably not, but we do have other competitors, 0:16:25.996 --> 0:16:28.716 colleagues really because we're all in the space together who 0:16:28.756 --> 0:16:31.476 are also working on the problem. At this point. The 0:16:32.516 --> 0:16:34.236 other company that will be going out at a similar 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:38.996 time is a company called Seapower, And there's also another 0:16:39.116 --> 0:16:41.996 US company that did a deployment who are at a 0:16:42.116 --> 0:16:45.476 maybe slightly earlier stage called cal Wave that are based 0:16:45.516 --> 0:16:48.996 down in California. And we're all working together, but we're 0:16:48.996 --> 0:16:50.916 all working together to solve the same problem, and I 0:16:50.916 --> 0:16:53.756 think ultimately in the in the future we will all 0:16:53.796 --> 0:16:57.556 be having part of the of the overall mix. There 0:16:57.796 --> 0:17:01.956 be different solutions for different locations. So you've been in 0:17:01.996 --> 0:17:06.516 this field for twenty plus years, that makes been a time. 0:17:07.036 --> 0:17:10.036 So sorry, I've been in my field plus years as well, 0:17:11.316 --> 0:17:13.636 and I'm not about to deploy something in Hawaii, So 0:17:13.716 --> 0:17:16.956 you got that going for you. You know, it's been 0:17:16.956 --> 0:17:21.356 a time when there has been this incredible growth in 0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:24.596 solar and wind power. It seems like wave power has 0:17:24.636 --> 0:17:29.156 been much harder, and I'm curious. I'm curious how that's 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:31.236 been for you. I mean, has it been harder than 0:17:31.276 --> 0:17:34.236 you expected? Do you feel like you have lessons from it? 0:17:34.716 --> 0:17:37.316 You know, that's a it's a really good question. That 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:39.316 I haven't really thought of it in that way before. 0:17:39.956 --> 0:17:42.276 It's been frustrating in many ways because you can see 0:17:42.276 --> 0:17:44.956 the amount of funding and progress that's going into wind 0:17:44.956 --> 0:17:48.236 and the scale up that's been achieved. But on the 0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:51.276 other hand, it also shows what we can achieve. So 0:17:51.396 --> 0:17:53.276 in some ways it's a little frustrating when you see 0:17:53.276 --> 0:17:54.756 the amount of money that's gone into it and the 0:17:54.796 --> 0:17:56.636 fact that we are a little bit further behind, and 0:17:56.676 --> 0:17:59.036 that we do have a much more difficult technology challenge 0:17:59.076 --> 0:18:02.196 to solve. On the other hand, once we solve it, 0:18:02.516 --> 0:18:07.036 than we have you know, a huge potential market. You 0:18:07.116 --> 0:18:10.636 got the whole ocean. There's wave all the time everywhere, right, 0:18:10.836 --> 0:18:13.236 that's right. Especially you know if you look at where 0:18:13.276 --> 0:18:16.556 the majority of cities are, they're on coastlines, and so 0:18:16.676 --> 0:18:20.836 you can actually install wave energy converters in locations that 0:18:20.876 --> 0:18:29.076 are close to load. That has other significant advantages. We'll 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:39.836 be back in a minute with the lightning round. Now 0:18:39.876 --> 0:18:43.236 let's get back to what's your problem. Let's finish with 0:18:43.276 --> 0:18:47.596 the lightning round. What's one thing that's surprising about waves 0:18:47.636 --> 0:18:54.596 that most people don't know that they don't flow like water. 0:18:55.076 --> 0:18:57.756 The individual wave particle moves around in a circle. That 0:18:57.836 --> 0:18:59.396 if you actually go out into the ocean and you 0:18:59.676 --> 0:19:01.756 put something down on the surface of the water, it 0:19:01.756 --> 0:19:04.996 doesn't flow along with the waves. It actually moves around 0:19:05.036 --> 0:19:07.476 in a circle. And so it's only the energy that 0:19:07.556 --> 0:19:11.116 moves along with the waves, not the actual water particles. 0:19:12.396 --> 0:19:15.396 I also learned from your LinkedIn page that you were 0:19:15.436 --> 0:19:21.876 the archery club captain in grad school. Yeah, do you 0:19:21.996 --> 0:19:24.596 still what do you say do archery? I don't even 0:19:24.596 --> 0:19:30.236 know the verb? Do you still arch? I do shoot sometimes? 0:19:30.476 --> 0:19:33.076 Do you still shoot? Yes? I do? And I have 0:19:33.236 --> 0:19:36.716 been I think now for you know, since I've been 0:19:36.876 --> 0:19:39.436 eighteen months old. It's always been a thing I kind 0:19:39.476 --> 0:19:42.116 of did you say, since you've been eighteen months old? 0:19:42.516 --> 0:19:44.836 I did? Actually, yes I have. There's actually a photograph 0:19:44.836 --> 0:19:48.996 of my a baby with the moment probably probably not 0:19:50.236 --> 0:19:54.716 but seven days exactly exactly. Now you've told everybody how 0:19:54.716 --> 0:19:59.596 old I am. But yeah, So I've done archery for 0:19:59.916 --> 0:20:03.516 you know, thirty forty years basically, And it's what is 0:20:03.516 --> 0:20:05.916 it about archery? What is it about archery that keeps 0:20:05.956 --> 0:20:08.596 you doing it? Why do you love it? Um? You know, 0:20:08.636 --> 0:20:10.036 part of it is the fact that you do it 0:20:10.036 --> 0:20:11.836 for a long time. So you get better at it, 0:20:11.836 --> 0:20:13.516 you get good at it, and therefore you like being 0:20:13.516 --> 0:20:16.676 good at something, and so therefore you can continue to 0:20:16.996 --> 0:20:18.756 be good at it. And I've been lucky enough to 0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:21.476 represent the national team for a number of years, and 0:20:21.516 --> 0:20:24.236 so you do it because of that. Also part of 0:20:24.236 --> 0:20:25.996 it is that just there's a lot of a certain 0:20:26.036 --> 0:20:28.156 amount of joy in shooting an arrow. You have a 0:20:28.196 --> 0:20:33.436 favorite mythological archer you honestly, the way the way it's 0:20:33.436 --> 0:20:37.796 always conveyed in books and in fiction, it's always frustrating. 0:20:38.956 --> 0:20:41.596 You're like, no, that's not how you do it, and 0:20:41.636 --> 0:20:44.556 it's like screaming at the TV or various things. It's like, 0:20:44.676 --> 0:20:47.236 what is going on here? What's one piece of advice 0:20:47.236 --> 0:20:49.876 you'd give to someone trying to solve a hard problem. 0:20:49.956 --> 0:20:54.756 I think you've got to persevere, basically, but you've also 0:20:54.796 --> 0:20:57.796 got to go back to first principles. You know sometimes 0:20:57.796 --> 0:21:02.036 that you won't. You'll come across something that's that's seemingly intractable, 0:21:02.876 --> 0:21:06.876 and then you sure perseverance is extremely important, but sometimes 0:21:06.876 --> 0:21:09.036 you have to take a step back, look at first principles, 0:21:09.116 --> 0:21:11.036 look at what other people have done, and then come 0:21:11.036 --> 0:21:13.876 at it again, maybe this time from a different angle. 0:21:14.876 --> 0:21:16.876 That's probably one bit of advice. Tell me a little 0:21:16.916 --> 0:21:20.636 more about perseverance, Like in your particular case, right, you've 0:21:20.636 --> 0:21:23.476 been working on this for a long time. Is there 0:21:23.556 --> 0:21:28.276 something about you? Is there something about the problem? Like 0:21:28.636 --> 0:21:31.076 how have you hung in there for so long? Oh, 0:21:31.116 --> 0:21:33.436 that's a good question. Actually, I'm not even sure I 0:21:33.476 --> 0:21:35.596 have a great answer for that, but I would say 0:21:35.636 --> 0:21:40.396 that I really enjoy it. I really enjoy creating something 0:21:40.516 --> 0:21:44.876 in the sense that you have multiple problems here, and 0:21:44.916 --> 0:21:47.396 then you can, if you approach it correctly, you can 0:21:47.436 --> 0:21:51.436 break those down into individual parts, and then you can 0:21:51.716 --> 0:21:54.996 solve those independently, and then you can share that knowledge. 0:21:55.316 --> 0:21:58.476 And so being able to publish and share that knowledge 0:21:58.476 --> 0:22:01.836 and discuss it and help and then use that and 0:22:01.876 --> 0:22:03.756 what other people have done in order to solve a 0:22:03.796 --> 0:22:07.876 subsequent problem, that's invigorating. I think that's one of the 0:22:07.876 --> 0:22:12.836 reasons why I kept involved in this, and also because 0:22:13.516 --> 0:22:16.516 I believe right now the end is in sights. You know, 0:22:16.596 --> 0:22:22.596 we are close to being able to create a commercial system, 0:22:22.596 --> 0:22:31.516 and to be part of that is fantastic. Tim Munden 0:22:31.676 --> 0:22:34.596 is the chief technical officer of Ossula Power