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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fitness Disrupted, a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: I am Tom Holland and this is Fitness Disrupted. One

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Speaker 1: of the many things I love about this show, and

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Speaker 1: I hope you do too, is the mix of stuff

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Speaker 1: I bring you right heavy on the PhD top of

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Speaker 1: their game, professors, researchers, the doctor Daniel Lieberman's, the Dr

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Speaker 1: Brad Shonfelds, you know, the Michael Easter's incredible books, The

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Speaker 1: Comfort Crisis. But I'm not going to waste your time

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Speaker 1: because we have limited time. And that's why I say

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Speaker 1: it drives me nuts when you're following programs that are

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Speaker 1: wasting your time and your money, but more so your

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Speaker 1: time because it's taking time away from you being the

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Speaker 1: best to you. It sounds so cliche, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: And today I have such a unique guest, and those

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Speaker 1: are the ones I'm going to bring you right. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have real people who have done it to

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Speaker 1: show you different ways you can do it, and success

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Speaker 1: stories to show you that you can do it. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna bring you those best minds, the researchers, you know,

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Speaker 1: the ones who are at the top of high intensity

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Speaker 1: interval training research. And again Dr Daniel Lieberman, evolutionary biologists

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Speaker 1: and studying you know, running and walking and barefoot running

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Speaker 1: and all of those things, the best of the best.

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Speaker 1: And then a unique guest like my next one, who

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Speaker 1: I was coming back on a flight from Tampa recently.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how it popped up. I'm gonna talk

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Speaker 1: to him about this. But something came across you know,

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Speaker 1: you got internet, which is insane, you know, thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: feet and this new book and interview just came across

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Speaker 1: my screen, and I said, I gotta interview this guy.

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Speaker 1: I gotta read this book. And normally, like you know,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't know it away. I have to read the

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Speaker 1: book and delve a little deeper. But it was a

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Speaker 1: quick interview I watched with him that said this guy

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Speaker 1: is worth interviewing. He's got something here. And I just

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Speaker 1: finished the book this morning, got up early, and it's

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Speaker 1: amazing and it's unique in so many different ways. And

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Speaker 1: that's the other thing, by the way, when I have

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Speaker 1: authors on my show, I'm like, you know, some TV

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Speaker 1: people and stuff, I read the book. When I booked them,

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Speaker 1: I literally say to them. It's often through email, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have a scheduling program where I say, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: read the book and you can just give me a week.

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Speaker 1: Give me a week to read it and then we'll talk.

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Speaker 1: And so I read it. It is an incredible history,

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Speaker 1: cultural history, scientific history of exercise from someone who's passionate

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Speaker 1: about it. So there are writers who write some pretty

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Speaker 1: great books on the history about exercize. I've interviewed a couple.

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Speaker 1: I've read these books. But it's different when you come

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Speaker 1: to it with kind of a mix, a mix of

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Speaker 1: different likes and passions and experience. And Bill Hayes has

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Speaker 1: that the book is Sweat, a history of exercise, and

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Speaker 1: in it he does what I would love to do,

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Speaker 1: but we have limited time. He travels the world reading

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Speaker 1: the actual texts about exercise, like the literal sixteenth century text,

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Speaker 1: goes to these uh you know, libraries and and just

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Speaker 1: incredible historical places to read these books and experience what

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Speaker 1: these people experienced, and then to weave in his story

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Speaker 1: because let's be honest, I kind of want a fitness person,

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Speaker 1: someone who's got a background in it to write about it.

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Speaker 1: Is that the bln'll know. But it brings such a

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Speaker 1: different aspect, outlook, perspective, and this book is unique in

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Speaker 1: that way. I've read a lot of books on exercise,

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Speaker 1: and what's frustrating is I not even have to read

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Speaker 1: ones I don't want to read, but you know, diet

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Speaker 1: books and things like that that are popular, but I

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Speaker 1: have to know, uh, what people are torturing themselves with

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Speaker 1: what I do? I do that less frequently with exercise books.

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Speaker 1: Still do it, but it's more the diet side. I

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Speaker 1: can't recommend this one more highly, right, And I've had

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Speaker 1: such great authors on with different books. You know, Let's

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Speaker 1: Get Physical by Danielle Friedman. The kind of the Women's

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Speaker 1: History of not kind of it is the women's history

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Speaker 1: of exercise, this kind of more not so much demands,

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Speaker 1: but a little a little more of that. But Bill

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Speaker 1: talks about, you know, women, the history of that and

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Speaker 1: how they were kept out of so much for so long.

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Speaker 1: But it is so well researched. Is what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to get to from someone who has been in the

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Speaker 1: gym's his whole life as well and enjoying exercise in

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Speaker 1: different ways. And that's what this show is about, is

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Speaker 1: giving you the scientific information, the background, the history which

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Speaker 1: blew me away. Didn't surprise me because I've been reading,

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Speaker 1: you know, these types of books, the history books, but

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Speaker 1: he goes so deep and so one takeaway we will

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Speaker 1: talk about is how in the sixteenth century the advice

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Speaker 1: I am giving you right now, they were giving the moderation,

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Speaker 1: the balance, the exercise and the nutrition that you have

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Speaker 1: to do both. All right, enough, I'm gonna get worked up.

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Speaker 1: Cannot be more excited Sweat A History of Exercise. We

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Speaker 1: will speak with the author, Bill Hayes after the short

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Speaker 1: break and we are back. Yes, only the best guests

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Speaker 1: here on fitness Disrupted, and I know you're gonna enjoy this.

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Speaker 1: I literally got up even earlier than I normally do

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Speaker 1: to finish this book and could not be more excited

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Speaker 1: to speak with Bill Hayes. Bill, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for taking the time. Of course, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, we have so much to talk about

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Speaker 1: because we ran in the same circle, same area, you know, Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: things like that. Just I gave a brief intro, but

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Speaker 1: let's do that boring like, Hey, you know this incredible book,

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Speaker 1: Sweat History of Exercise, which I want to thank you

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Speaker 1: first off for doing the research you did. It's something

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Speaker 1: I always wanted to do. I'm very jealous. We'll talk

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Speaker 1: about that, but um, you know, give give people kind

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Speaker 1: of the it's an excuse Bill. By the way, I'm

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Speaker 1: reading this and I'm going you know, I traveled the

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Speaker 1: world and still due to race and do events. You

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Speaker 1: traveled the world to research this book. So we kind

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Speaker 1: of made our work. I think, our passion, our vocation

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Speaker 1: to some degree. Right. Uh, that's absolutely right, right, that's

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Speaker 1: the since I got You're like, well, I need to

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Speaker 1: go to Rome to research that, so I need to go,

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Speaker 1: you know degree. So give people kind of the uh

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Speaker 1: you know, the short kind of take on the books. Sure, well,

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Speaker 1: the whole idea for this book's what came to me

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Speaker 1: appropriately enough at a gym about ten eleven years ago.

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Speaker 1: I was on top of the StairMaster, the old school

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Speaker 1: cardio machine of Joyce for me, and punched in my program.

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Speaker 1: I still remember. It was fat level twenty five minutes,

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Speaker 1: and for some reason on that particular day, I just

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Speaker 1: paused and looked out at the gym floor, all these

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Speaker 1: men and women lifting dumbbells, bench press, sit ups, pull ups,

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Speaker 1: yoga bosy ball, and I just thought to myself, how

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Speaker 1: did we all end up here? And if I were

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Speaker 1: to trace the line backward in time, whereould I land?

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Speaker 1: Where would it start? So I actually got off the

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Speaker 1: staremaster went to the library thinking there must be a

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Speaker 1: book on the history of exercise, and there wasn't, at

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Speaker 1: least not one that you know, answered my question in

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Speaker 1: one volume. So that was really where it started. Um

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Speaker 1: took me a few years to get organized. I was

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Speaker 1: working on other projects, and then I really dove in

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Speaker 1: sweat traces the history of exercise from antiquity, ancient Greece

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Speaker 1: and Rome, century by century, through the Middle Ages, the Renaissance,

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century and up to the present day. And uh,

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Speaker 1: mixed in with that is a kind of chronicle of

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Speaker 1: my own history of exercise, so I let the reader

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Speaker 1: experience that as well. But yeah, I did travel all

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Speaker 1: over the world. I got a Guggenheim Foundation grant and

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Speaker 1: used that grant to travel everywhere from throughout Italy, Rome, Florence, Patua,

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Speaker 1: to London, Paris, Sweden, India, and even Kansas City, Kansas.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it took me to all cons of places

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Speaker 1: and and took you years. Right, you said how you

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Speaker 1: started your book and then put it down. You had

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Speaker 1: some things happen in your life and then you brought

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Speaker 1: it back. And so this was years into making. It

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Speaker 1: was about ten years from beginning to end, probably more

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Speaker 1: off than on right. Um, I did put it aside

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Speaker 1: for a while. Um, and you know, one of the

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Speaker 1: challenges I had was that I had done so much research.

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Speaker 1: The topics seemed so huge. I got a little overwhelmed,

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Speaker 1: like how do I how do I narrow this down

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Speaker 1: and make it make it a narrative that's entertaining and

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Speaker 1: fun for the fun for the reader. And um, so

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Speaker 1: you go along with me as I go on my

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Speaker 1: crazy research journey to all different archives and libraries and

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Speaker 1: places around the world. But that's what makes you're such

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Speaker 1: a great writer. And you know, when you throw in

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Speaker 1: fitness and the history of fitness, I'm so happy to

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Speaker 1: to read something like that. And again, the just rich

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Speaker 1: cultural and scientific history you give is it's a gift

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Speaker 1: for for people who you know, you literally went to

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Speaker 1: you know places and read from the actual you know manuscripts,

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Speaker 1: like tell people about that. You know, that's in the

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Speaker 1: first couple of pages. And I'm like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I'm hooked already. Um. It was really fun and really

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Speaker 1: a pleasure. I love doing that kind of original research

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Speaker 1: in archives and libraries. And um, really, the genesis for

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Speaker 1: sweat came at a rare books room at a small

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Speaker 1: library here in New York City that's meant primarily for

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Speaker 1: medical professionals, New York Academy of Medicine. And I went

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Speaker 1: in there thinking I knew something about the history of

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Speaker 1: medicine and science and exercise, UM, and I had reserved

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Speaker 1: a few books in The librarian looked at me and said,

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Speaker 1: surely you must know about Gerlomo Mercuriality. And I looked up.

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Speaker 1: He said, uh no, actually I don't, And she said,

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Speaker 1: wait here for a second, and she went back into

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Speaker 1: the storage room and came back wearing white gloves and

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Speaker 1: holding a pristine first edition of a fifteen sixty nine

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Speaker 1: book by Gerlomo mercurially UM called The Art Gymnastica or

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Speaker 1: the Art of Gymnastics, and his book is considered the

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Speaker 1: first comprehensive book on exercise published in fifteen sixty nine.

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Speaker 1: So while I opened the book and was captivated immediately

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Speaker 1: by the illustrations, it's really um. There are a lot

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Speaker 1: of woodcut engravings in the book showing people exercising. I

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Speaker 1: turned the page and found that the whole book, and

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Speaker 1: it was a tome, was written in medieval Latin, so

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Speaker 1: I don't know any Latin. I could make out what

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Speaker 1: I thought was the Latin word for exercise. But then I,

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Speaker 1: you know, went on a search trying to track down

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Speaker 1: an English translation of this centuries old book, and even

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Speaker 1: tracked down the translator himself, and um, so yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was great fun to be working with these original materials,

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Speaker 1: really precious books and documents from centuries ago. It's so

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Speaker 1: incredible to read and how you did that, not just

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Speaker 1: in New York, but but all over the world, like

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Speaker 1: you know, putting on the white gloves and and just

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like I was there with you reading

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Speaker 1: those books, and just the experiences as you so amazingly

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Speaker 1: describe it was it was. It was just so incredible

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Speaker 1: to read. I have to say, though I did take Latin,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't translate. The lack of a quarter I don

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Speaker 1: like six years so so this book made me feel

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Speaker 1: guilty all over again, and the stressed about like translating.

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Speaker 1: And I had the great he was the single greatest professor.

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Speaker 1: Professor was high school, uh Bill and He was also

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Speaker 1: a philosophy teacher. He taught it Yale. He was way

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have been teaching high school, but he just loved it.

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Speaker 1: And so, yeah, Latin. Like I'll give you a quick

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Speaker 1: funny story. One of our projects in eighth grade Latin

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Speaker 1: was to write to someone and say, do you think

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Speaker 1: studying Latin is worthwhile? This dead language? Why would why

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Speaker 1: would we do this? And so I wrote to our

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Speaker 1: congressmen and didn't realize that he had recently passed. But

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Speaker 1: what was so incredible was I received a response from

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Speaker 1: someone in his office in pure Latin, a full page,

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Speaker 1: which then yeah, which then landed me on the cover

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Speaker 1: of the New York Times because they did an article

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Speaker 1: on this class all about Latin. But I still can't translate,

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Speaker 1: you know, a paragraph. So it was so funny, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it helped me with my SA T S bill. That

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Speaker 1: was pretty much it and getting into college. The study

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Speaker 1: of that, well, you know, this is one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons that mercurially was sort of lost to history. He

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Speaker 1: wrote his book They Are Said Gymnastica, but also another

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Speaker 1: twelve or fifteen other books, but all in medieval Latin,

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Speaker 1: and very few translated. So It's one reason he's sort

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Speaker 1: of been lost to history, and I might not have

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Speaker 1: ever known about him. Um, had it not been for

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Speaker 1: this very wise librarian, you know the book. In the book,

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Speaker 1: I mean libraries as much as I'm in gyms are

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Speaker 1: doing exercise. So it kind of goes back and forth

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Speaker 1: between those two two of my favorite places in the world,

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Speaker 1: which is why I feel fortunate to be able to interview,

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Speaker 1: because that's rare. And you not only people don't realize

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Speaker 1: what you just said, is that like you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I've I've learned about this book, but I can't read it.

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Speaker 1: So you tracked down people to help you navigate the waters,

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Speaker 1: whether it was you know, finding the books, translating the books,

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Speaker 1: taking you to the places, you know where a lot

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Speaker 1: of this happened. So it just didn't then there. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I really wanted to retrace Merciality's footsteps. You know what

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Speaker 1: led him to write this book in fifteen sixty nine.

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Speaker 1: Exercise was not a part of the culture widely in

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Speaker 1: Renaissance Italy or during that period, but there was at

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Speaker 1: that time this renewed interest in the ancients, in the

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Speaker 1: thinking and writing of ancient philosophers and physicians like Hippocrates

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Speaker 1: and Plato and Aristotle, And because he was personal physician

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Speaker 1: to a very prominent and also prosperous cardinal in Rome,

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Speaker 1: Cardinal Alessandro Farnese, mercuriality had access to the Vatican Library

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Speaker 1: and to all of its treasures, and to the Pharnasi

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Speaker 1: family private library. So it was he who began sort

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Speaker 1: of digging up these very ancient texts and deciphering, translating

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Speaker 1: them and reading them and absorbing them. And it was

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Speaker 1: his aim, as he says in the book, to revive

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Speaker 1: the ancient Greek art of exercise. Um. He had a

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Speaker 1: very kind of romantic view of it. But at the

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Speaker 1: same time, the book is very much written from the

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Speaker 1: perspective of a physician, so he's looking at each form

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Speaker 1: of exercise known at that time. Chapters devoted to walking, running, swimming, boxing, wrestling,

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Speaker 1: and even forms of exercise we might not consider exercise

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Speaker 1: like laughter, and looking at it from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: a doctor, so and seeing if it, you know, benefits health,

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Speaker 1: if it prevents illness. So in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: he was ahead of his time, and also reaching back

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Speaker 1: to the ancients like Hippocrates, who in the fifth century

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Speaker 1: BC wrote eating a loan will not keep a man well.

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Speaker 1: He must also take exercise. For food and exercise while

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Speaker 1: possessing opposite qualities, yet work together to produce health. So

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Speaker 1: that's going back to the fifth century DC. It's amazing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was great to you know, uncover things like that.

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Speaker 1: Now you know people did ask. So was mercuriality successful?

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Speaker 1: Did he revive the ancient Greek art of exercise? Not exactly. Um,

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Speaker 1: the book did go through five or six editions, but

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Speaker 1: exercise didn't really really explode globally until the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: So I take you along on that journey as well.

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Speaker 1: But you said and that this was the huge takeaway

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Speaker 1: from nothing. Just what stands out Bill to the average

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Speaker 1: reader is what you said about ahead of his time.

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Speaker 1: Like page twenty nine, I pulled a quote, Uh, this

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Speaker 1: is from him. Those who exercise moderately and appropriately can

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Speaker 1: lead a healthy life that does not depend on any drugs.

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Speaker 1: But those who do so without proper care are racked

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Speaker 1: by perpetual ill health and require constant medication. So you go, oh,

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Speaker 1: my gosh, this is five hundred so ninty years ago

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Speaker 1: depending on it's insane, Bill, So you're going what right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was surprised. I had no idea what

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Speaker 1: I would find in this sixteenth century book written in Latin.

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Speaker 1: And I was really very surprised, pleasantly surprised that his

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Speaker 1: advice about exercise was really so sensible. Um, advocating from

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Speaker 1: moderate exercise every day, work it into your daily routine,

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Speaker 1: and even encouraging women to exercise, which was not common

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Speaker 1: at all at that time and not common at all

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Speaker 1: in antiquity. Um. So yeah, ahead of his time. But

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Speaker 1: there's one thing that people should know, mercuriality. As brilliant

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Speaker 1: as he was, like everyone else, like all doctors up

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Speaker 1: until that time and later, did not have an accurate

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Speaker 1: scientific understanding of the workings of the human body. So um,

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Speaker 1: his whole practice, his medical practice was based on the

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Speaker 1: theory of the four humors. There's a belief that there

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Speaker 1: were these four kind of liquid humors in the body

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Speaker 1: that had to be kept in balance. If one or

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Speaker 1: another got thrown out of balance, you're in a state

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Speaker 1: of distemper And this is where primitive cures or treatments

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Speaker 1: like blood letting and purging came from to deal with

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Speaker 1: the four humors. Now, one reason for this and this

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Speaker 1: went on until William Harvey's discovery of the circulation of

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Speaker 1: blood by the beat of the heart in the seventeenth century,

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Speaker 1: where they that finally ended this misconception about the four humors.

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Speaker 1: But up until then there was the belief in the

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Speaker 1: four humors. And one reason is that dissection of human

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Speaker 1: cadavers was forbidden. So a doctor like mercuriality, just like Hippocrates,

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Speaker 1: the father of medicine back in the his century BC,

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Speaker 1: never got that, to put it simply, never got that glimpse,

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Speaker 1: that glimpse inside to how the human body actually works.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting and just so people know, you say

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Speaker 1: in the book, you spent a year doing that, because

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Speaker 1: you're as twisted as I am in love of the

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Speaker 1: the human body. Right, you spent a year I did

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Speaker 1: for one of my earlier books, called The Anatomous, I

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Speaker 1: tell the story behind the sort of classic nineteenth century

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Speaker 1: text Gray's Anatomy, which medical students and artists alike have had,

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Speaker 1: you know, since it was published in eighteen fifty seven.

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Speaker 1: I'd had a copy. I picked it up in a

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Speaker 1: used bookstore in college or something. It's as well known

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Speaker 1: for its illustrations as for its writing it's explanation of

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Speaker 1: human anatomy, and it just sort of hit me one day,

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Speaker 1: this is how I write my books. Um, who was

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Speaker 1: who wrote this thing? Who was Henry Gray of Grey's Anatomy.

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Speaker 1: So I researched his life. But as part of that, yes,

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Speaker 1: I spent an entire year studying anatomy alongside med students

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco and ultimately doing full cadaver dissection alongside

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Speaker 1: the MET students, which for me it was really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a strict medical or scientific background. I'm

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Speaker 1: just a writer and a photographer, but I've always been

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Speaker 1: interested in the human body and in as you said,

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Speaker 1: in fitness and exercise. So for me, it was a

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Speaker 1: real pleasure and fascinating to be able to do that

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Speaker 1: and honor really and I think that knowledge of anatomy

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Speaker 1: that I got working on that book really helped me

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Speaker 1: with Sweat because I also try to sort of dissect

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Speaker 1: the dynamics of human movement and what is going on

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Speaker 1: in the body with different forms of exercise. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what I loved. You have this unique perspective, as you

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Speaker 1: just said, and that's what really helps you know, people

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Speaker 1: listen to the show is to bring on someone your

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Speaker 1: your love of fitness first and foremost, you know, hooked

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Speaker 1: me because we we shared that and I you know,

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Speaker 1: you talk about your dad and how your dad got

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Speaker 1: you into it, and he was a swimmer, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about that. By the way, swimming is not

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Speaker 1: a sport. It's to me to keep from drowning. We

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Speaker 1: can still be friends, Bill, But even though I knew

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Speaker 1: triathle was, you know, we could still be friends. But

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Speaker 1: our dads both kind of got us into it and

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Speaker 1: we kind of did our thing. But then you had

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Speaker 1: this you know, quest for knowledge just and you went

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Speaker 1: out and did it. You also, you know, you took

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Speaker 1: a training certification. I did. I did lots of crazy

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Speaker 1: stuff from you know there, as I said, there was

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Speaker 1: this sort of my own history of exercise. So you

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Speaker 1: find me running, which we'll talk about, swimming, yoga. But

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Speaker 1: I also went through a personal fitness training course and

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Speaker 1: got certified to be a personal fitness trainer. And I

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Speaker 1: really did do it for the book and to find

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Speaker 1: out what fitness trainers have to study. And it was

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Speaker 1: far more challenging than I expected. Um, even though I

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Speaker 1: knew I wasn't going to be doing it professionally. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to take all the tests and attend every class

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Speaker 1: and I did pass. I did pass, I did get certified,

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Speaker 1: but it was I was not at the top of

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Speaker 1: my class. But know what you took, because I took

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Speaker 1: all the certifications back in the day. They've changed obviously

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Speaker 1: over the years, but you took a good one, like

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Speaker 1: there there was. Yeah, you took one that literally you

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Speaker 1: said weekends and was it a couple of months and

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Speaker 1: that that's a good certification bill. They're they're far. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's so many trainers out there who don't have one

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Speaker 1: even close to that. Yeah. It was very intensive, and

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Speaker 1: we did get deeply into anatomy and kinesiology, so I,

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Speaker 1: you know, also had that basis as I wrote about

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Speaker 1: these different forms of exercise to draw from. I did

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Speaker 1: you know, I did a few crazy things or intensive things.

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Speaker 1: I also did a boxing boot camp a six week

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Speaker 1: a week, uh six in the morning. And this was

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Speaker 1: a serious, serious boxing boot camp, not just cardio kickboxing

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Speaker 1: or something. So there's a chapter in the book where

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Speaker 1: I call it Boxer's Diary, where I take you through

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Speaker 1: that six week course that I just barely survived. I'm

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Speaker 1: proud that I did. Can I say that you grew

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Speaker 1: up with what five sisters? Is that right? Right? Five sisters?

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Speaker 1: So I grew up with five brothers. So that entire

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Speaker 1: chapter was my shot and freud, you know, upbringing Irish Catholic,

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Speaker 1: like really just enjoying your you're suffering. I have to

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Speaker 1: be honest. But it was so honest. That's what's so

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Speaker 1: great about it. Yeah, I had to be you know,

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Speaker 1: it was definitely a struggle for me. Um. Just you know,

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Speaker 1: I went into it thinking I've never really then in

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Speaker 1: a fight. I don't really know how to hit. I

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Speaker 1: want to learn how to hit. I think I've got

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Speaker 1: the strength and the the build and so forth. Um,

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Speaker 1: But what I didn't really think through is that if

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Speaker 1: you want to hit someone, being being the ring, being

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Speaker 1: the ring with someone, you're gonna get hit too. And

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Speaker 1: I became very good at that. Um got knocked down

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Speaker 1: a lot um and got myself back up again. But

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Speaker 1: related to that, another really really, really fantastic part of

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Speaker 1: that six week boxing boot camp was just the cardio.

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Speaker 1: I mean we were you know, from the six am

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Speaker 1: for the next ninety minutes. If we weren't in the

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Speaker 1: ring or sparring out on the streets of San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: running jumping rope, which I hadn't really done a lot

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Speaker 1: of before, which is exhausting, right, sit ups, and I

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Speaker 1: probably got in better shape than I've had ever been

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Speaker 1: in my life. Yeah yeah, And just backtrack a little

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Speaker 1: bit so much here. Um, when you're talking about getting

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Speaker 1: your certification and trainers, you talk about the first book

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Speaker 1: on fitness training, I'm gonna shred his name, so Flavis,

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Speaker 1: you probably got it down. How do you pronounce pillow Philistratus.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's just do it. Let's just do his last name,

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Speaker 1: because I have a hard time pronouncing some myself. I

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Speaker 1: pronounced it Philistratus. Yeah, yeah, it's it's amazing. There was.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book, I think it was around the

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Speaker 1: second century a d. A book for fitness training and

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Speaker 1: meant to educate fitness trainers for the athletic competitions that

427
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: were still so popular at that time. Oh yeah, it's remarkable.

428
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: It's another remarkable book in the history of exercise that

429
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: I did manage to find a translation for. Oh my gosh,

430
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: it's so many And how do you pronounces a Galen?

431
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: It's Galen, Right, Galen Galen is a really important figure. Yeah.

432
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: He was second century Roman physician, wrote many books, and

433
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: it was he who really really drove home the idea

434
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: of the theory of four humors. And Galen was so

435
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: revered really that no one thought to challenge his thinking.

436
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: And it wasn't, as I said earlier, it wasn't until

437
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: the seventeenth century that people really began to question Galen's findings.

438
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: And it was William Harvey, Who's who's the hero here

439
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: in figuring out that you know that it's the heart,

440
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: not the liver, that circulates blood throughout the body. So yeah,

441
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: but Galen was a very important figure for sure. And

442
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: what I love backtrack even more. You're talking about, you know,

443
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 1: how doctors got it wrong when they didn't have access

444
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: to the body. Essentially, as you said, they couldn't they

445
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: couldn't see and they didn't know what they couldn't see.

446
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: But the trainers had it right. And I love on

447
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: page one thirty three you say, uh, Gaylen is skating

448
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: and his critique of athletic trainers. For Gaylen, the trainers

449
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: are an extreme example of the way in which medical

450
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: incompetence can masquerade as expertise. He's not wrong, right, So

451
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: how amazing even back then, it really, it really is amazing.

452
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: It's incredible. Give you a quick story. So I started,

453
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: you know, I worked at every gym in New York

454
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: City back in the day Crunch though was and and

455
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: when Crunch was just starting out, like and it's crazy,

456
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: hey day. Do you were you there at that time?

457
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: I think I moved to New York in two thousand nine.

458
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: Maybe it was oh you missed, you missed it. You

459
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: would have liked it, you would have loved it. I

460
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: was insane back you know, we're talking like late mid

461
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: to late nineties, right when at first the senior Douglavin

462
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: who started it and said, you know, it wasn't about fitness,

463
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: it was about entertainment. But a quick story like you

464
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: know that I worked with so many trainers and many

465
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: came and left like the same day. It was the

466
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: rare person who made a career out of it. But

467
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: there was one guy. There's always that trainer you know

468
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: you've been in gym's your whole life as well, who

469
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: sounds amazing, right, all the big words and everything, And

470
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: we had one guy who was that guy and knew nothing.

471
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: It wasn't certified, knew nothing, but you thought, you know,

472
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: if you didn't know anything. So long story short, he

473
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 1: was doing the orientation, which was that free session, trying

474
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: to rope someone into sessions, and it was a woman,

475
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: young woman in thirties or something, and sessions over he's

476
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: been you know, I've been next to him. I could

477
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: hear his little pitch the whole time, and blah blah blah.

478
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: And he says, so would you like to buy a

479
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: ten pack? Fifty pack? Woman who hadn't opened her mouth

480
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: the entire session said I'm a doctor, and nothing you

481
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: have said at the last hour has been true. So,

482
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: you know, just back to like five hundred years ago,

483
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: there was the doctor trainer kind of face off and

484
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: you outline all that. All right, let's get into swimming.

485
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: Do you still I used to swim like some crazy place.

486
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: I know you swam in the Central Park pool you've

487
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: talked about. Yeah, was in that pool. You're kidding, you're kidding, Yeah, yeah,

488
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: Central Park Triathlon. Tell people about swimming and your kind

489
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: of connection to that. Oh my god. Um. Yeah. My

490
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: late partner, Oliver Sacks, was a great swimmer, love to swim,

491
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: had swam his whole life open water swimming, lap swimming,

492
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: and so when we became a couple back in two

493
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: thousand nine, I knew how to swim. I mean, I've

494
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: been swimming since I was a kid, but I've never

495
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 1: really done it for exercise. And although I was fit

496
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: and it was pretty cocky, I guess. I remember getting

497
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: into the pool that first day and I could barely

498
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: finished two laps. Um, swimming is a complex motor skill.

499
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: It's exhausting and it's humbling, and UM, what I ended

500
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: up doing was to get a coach or really take

501
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: swimming lessons to improve my technique and UM put me

502
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: through drills and just slowly build up my endurance. And

503
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: I still swim to this day, two or three times

504
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: a week. I try to swim a mile and I

505
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: love it. I love it. But it's you know when

506
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: friends or others who talk about swimming and say, I

507
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: want to get back into swimming, but UM, it takes time.

508
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: It really takes time to refine your stroke and UM

509
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: get used to a different kind of Um it's a

510
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: different kind of endurance swimming. You know this, Yeah, than

511
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: I do, no, but I'm horrible at it and That's

512
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: why I do really long distance triathlons, because the swim

513
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: doesn't matter as much if you're a fast biker and runner,

514
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: so I just make up for it there. Tell me.

515
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is true, but I've heard

516
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: from people who do triathlons that for most people the

517
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: swimming is the hardest part to sort of perfect that,

518
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: especially if they've never done a triathlon before. That the

519
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: running in the biking they can get pretty easily, but

520
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: the swimming can really be a challenge. And you talk

521
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: about one of the reasons why in the book, you

522
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: said you can die, right, So that's right. So that's

523
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: that fear is people say I'm scared of the swim,

524
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: and I say you should be. You could die. I

525
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: write it in my try Fond book. But uh no,

526
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: your point is so well taken. I'm surprised I haven't

527
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: been thrown out of more places, like you know, in

528
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: New York's because I would go underwater, Bill, because I'm like,

529
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm gonna study the athlete. I'm a

530
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: visual learner, so I would be underwater. How is this

531
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: guy who's, let's be honest, probably a couple of pounds overweight,

532
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: if not many swimming twice as fast as I am,

533
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: so i'd be underwater like trying to dissect. Uh. It's

534
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: and I ran more swim coaches out of the business. Uh.

535
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: Doug Stern is the guy you would have loved back

536
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: in the day, who used to be the guy to

537
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: go to in New York City. And I watched him

538
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: literally teach people to swim who couldn't swim one lap

539
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: of the pool. Within the first session, he would get

540
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: them doing. Its incredible, but it's a skill. Yeah, that's

541
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: such a that's a coincidence. You know. Doug Stern was

542
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: a good friend of Oliver's. Oliver and Doug we're friends,

543
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: and they would go on I think Doug would organize

544
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: swimming trips to exotic sort of exotic places like yes, exactly. Yeah.

545
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: And I never did meet him. He passed away before

546
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: I met him. But apparently he was an incredible coach.

547
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: He you would have loved him. He and I'm not

548
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: surprised at Oliver knew of him. That's why I threw

549
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: the name out. You still have a shirt at Doug

550
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: Sterns deep water running you used to do on the

551
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: West Side. But he was he was amazing. But it's

552
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: a technique, right, And I didn't grow up on a

553
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 1: swim team, so it's like golf to me, So that's

554
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: my excuse. It definitely was one of those forms of

555
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: exercise that really required practice, you know. It It requires

556
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: going back to the pool, back to the pool, back

557
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: to the pool. Um. There are other forms of exercise

558
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: like that too, like like yoga, very different kind of exercise,

559
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: but you really have to build up your practice and

560
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: keep going back to class or have a great teacher,

561
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: even online on YouTube or whatever. And then their exercises

562
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: like walking, which Hippocrates and Plato and Galen all recommended.

563
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: They felt walking was one of the best forms of exercise,

564
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: and I have to agree absolutely, you know. And the

565
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: great thing about swimming when you're not good, to finish

566
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: that up is that you burn more calories when you're

567
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: as bad as I have. So if weight Watson is

568
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: a goal from an exercise physiologist standpoint, you're less efficient,

569
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: you burn more calories, So you can reframe it that

570
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: way for those few it's a good way. That's a

571
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: good way to think of it like that. Yeah, it's

572
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: not good when you're doing an iron man in Malaysia

573
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: and you want to save your energy. But you know

574
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: you can still reframe it anyway you want. Um, I

575
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: want to talk about let's talk about naked. Do you

576
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: think I was gonna go there? Let's tale, I laughed

577
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: out loud, Page A D seven. I think it was

578
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: where you talk about, like you know, ancient Greek games

579
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: and stuff, the man exercize naked, right, That's just the

580
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: way it was. And I remember, by the way, I

581
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: have toss my dad about this. I don't know if

582
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 1: it was New York Athletic Club or something, but men

583
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: used to swim get in the clubs right back in

584
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: the day. Yeah, they did that in Spokane when I'm

585
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: growing up and swam naked. Yeah, yeah, you know this,

586
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: there's this. You know, we know from history that athletes

587
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: at the Olympics and the other athletic competitions throughout that

588
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: whole empire for centuries would compete and also just exercise

589
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: at the gymnasiums in the nude. In fact, the word

590
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: gymnastics comes from, or what it means is exercising in

591
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: the nude. Um. Not many people know that. And you know,

592
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: I see you see on ancient Greek vases or amphour.

593
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: I um, these depictions of athletes and men exercising naked

594
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: and you just accept it. And I remember it hit

595
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:49,479
Speaker 1: me one day like was that really true? Did they

596
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: really run box, do marathon sprints, wrestle naked and without

597
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: let's say, harming themselves? And how does that work? So

598
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: I had to put it to the test. Um Oliver

599
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: had a place in the country that was quite private

600
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: and there was a long driveway about a quarter of

601
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: a mile long. So I did a control run just

602
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: with my shirt and shorts and jockstrap and shoes, and

603
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: that was sort of my control. And then I just

604
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: shucked all my clothes except for except for my running

605
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: shot running shoes, and I ran and sprinted and ran.

606
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 1: And what I found, my surprise, that is that nature

607
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: provides its own natural jockstrap. Within seconds of my naked

608
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: running experiment, my test goals had contracted, my scrow to

609
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: my penis, everything contracted to um retracted maybe is the

610
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: best word. Uh too much smaller size and there's just

611
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: a little bouncing down below, but nothing that got in

612
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: the way. And it made me realize that is how

613
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: it works, and nature, it's like your your brain sends

614
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: a message to your crotch, like pack it up, it up?

615
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 1: Is that incredible? I mean I laughed out loud again

616
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: right on that page. When I realized what I was

617
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: just about to do. I stopped and I laughed out aboud,

618
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: and I go, here we go. And you're such a

619
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: good writer. I go, not only is he gonna do it,

620
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure he's gonna outline it and describe

621
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: it in great detail. And it was I was trying

622
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: to find I was trying to find discreet words as

623
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: I described it. But hey, it's just human anatomy and

624
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: it is Tom, Tom. I want you to promise me

625
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: that you'll try it. All right, let me go back

626
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: and say they used to be a naked triathlon. I

627
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: think it was like it was somewhere scary y oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, God.

628
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: I want to say it was like North Carolina and

629
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 1: it was a sprint and they had some amazing pictures.

630
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you know what, I've pretty much done

631
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: it all. Haven't done that? You know, A well placed

632
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: BIB number and you know, race belt could could be

633
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: an interesting picture for the website. Uh, you know, back

634
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: listen after reading your thing, it's just with cell phones.

635
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: I don't care where I I just we have to

636
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: be careful Bill, right. I used to say there's no

637
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: bad pr but um, I don't know if you're a

638
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: Seinfeld fan again, shrinkage and uh, it's just that's a

639
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: better word. Yeah, your words are much better your huge tracks.

640
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: Let's just continue on this for one last second. Because

641
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: I wrote a book called Beat the Gym, spending so

642
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: many you know, years, hours, days of my life in

643
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: the gym, as you did the locker rooms. I just

644
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: again this topic that you kind of get into it.

645
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: But the naked there is good naked and bad naked

646
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: bad to back to Seinfeld and their towels and what

647
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: is it about, you know? Certain just we have that

648
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: conversation right where you're trying to keep eye contact. There

649
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: was a well known celebrity I used to train and

650
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: I'd see him in the locker room and all he

651
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: would be wearing was a heart rate monitor and it

652
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: was just it was really hard to have this. It's

653
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: just there's a visual there. My point is like, it's

654
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: it's interesting phenomenon that, like guys just want to be naked.

655
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: Let's just put it out there. That's really true, and

656
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: some more comfortable than others, but it does bring us

657
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: back to antiquity, you know, and people exercised in the nude,

658
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: they also oiled up. They put olive oil on their

659
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: skin and sometimes dust to make their hands or arms

660
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: more tactle if they were doing wrestling. And one of

661
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: the most interesting discoveries I made, I'm sure you will

662
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: remember this from the book in antiquity, the sweat of

663
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: athletes a prize commodity. Considered a prize commodity. They believe

664
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: that the sweat and oil must contain the essence of

665
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: arite or excellence, and that it should be captured, and

666
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: so they created a special tool called a strigle, and

667
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: you can see examples at the Met Museum here in

668
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: New York or major museums around the world. The stride

669
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: was shaped sort of like a celery stock, and the

670
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: athletes or their trainers would scrape all the sweat and

671
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: oil off their bodies and funnel it into little clay pots.

672
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: And this funky smelling right flu This mixture of sweat

673
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: and oil and maybe does was called loyals, and it

674
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: was sold in gym. You know, the better the athlete

675
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: the higher the price, and it was sold for medicinal purposes.

676
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: They had the the misconception that loyals must have medicinal qualities.

677
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: But I think it also speaks to how the athlete

678
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: was idealized in that time and considered, you know, the ultimate,

679
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: that even his sweat would contain the essence of airte

680
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: I need one of those? Do they still sell those? Um?

681
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: Number of A number of people have said, wouldn't be

682
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: surprised if they started seeing that in bringing back yeah,

683
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: healthy stores or something. So the first natural supplement. But

684
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: that's but that's what I love that you That's how

685
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: great your book is is not only do you talk

686
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 1: about it, but you say this was actually a way

687
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: for if I'm not mistaken, right, Jim owners to to

688
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: make a couple of extra dollars right to sell this

689
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: as a supplement in the gym back in the day. Yeah,

690
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: I mean it sounds almost unbelievable, but there are records

691
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: from ancient Greece of you know, how much how much

692
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: glorios was sold in a week or a day. Um,

693
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: but wait a minute, but think of the the supplement

694
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: started interrupted like of you know, some well known celebrities

695
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: shall we say that make this sound tame by comparison, right,

696
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: and the cost. Yeah, I mean that that was the

697
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: context I had to see it in. There's lots of

698
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: crazy stuff that we do, you do, I do, We

699
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: all do today thinking it will make us whatever better athletes, swim,

700
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: better run, faster. Things we take. So you know, I can't.

701
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: I can't think that their belief in Glorios was too crazy.

702
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's kind of sexy too. After I

703
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 1: did my naked run, I just slopped all the sweat

704
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: off my body and felt like I was back in

705
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: ancient Greece in the fourth century and checked around and

706
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: make sure there were no cameras going in the woods somewhere. Yeah. Yeah,

707
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: it was offense in properties there's quite quite private. I

708
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: enjoyed that so much. Um So, you you have such

709
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: an incredible history of the Olympics, and you travel to

710
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: the locations amazing. What do you think I want kind

711
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: of your take because you have such a unique take.

712
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: What do you think that you know, the original competitors

713
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: organizers of you know, the Olympics way back when, would

714
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: think of the Olympics today. Oh, they think they'd be

715
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 1: pretty shocked. Um, you know what would be most shocking

716
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: is that women compete back in the day. Back in antiquity,

717
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 1: women were not encouraged or permitted or allowed to compete

718
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: in athletic competitions or to exercise at jim So I

719
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: think that would be probably the biggest surprise. But the

720
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: number of different forms of sport that we now have,

721
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: some of which I don't even understand. I was watching

722
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: some of the Olympics, thinking like, how did this get

723
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: combined with shooting? And how is this a sport? I

724
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: don't get it. So I think that would come as

725
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: a surprise. And then, um, I don't know. I'm trying

726
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: to think if they would find the gargantuan stadiums built

727
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: and these mini cities really built for the Olympic Games,

728
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: whether in uh summer or winter. Um. But then on

729
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: the other hand, I did jis it the four sites

730
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: of the Ancient Athletic Games. It's the last chapter in

731
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: the book. I went to Greece and I rented a

732
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: car and I drove haplessly around the island and went

733
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: to all four sites, Ismia, Nemea, Delphi, and Olympia. And

734
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, we all know about Olympia but there were

735
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: three other major athletic competitions in those years between. That's

736
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: why the Olympics were held every four years. That I

737
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: was just thinking about Delphi, which is the most really

738
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: breathtaking spectacular setting of all four, not that Olympia isn't,

739
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: but it's built into the side of a mountain and

740
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: it's just spectacular. So um, maybe in a certain way,

741
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: the ancients, if they were the time travel to the day,

742
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be quite as surprise by these spectacular stadiums

743
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: and arenas and all that that that are built. Incredible,

744
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: you know. And that's one thing I think we share

745
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: again back to where we started with all this, is

746
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 1: that you you do most of this on your own, right.

747
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: So I traveled to my events and I love that experience,

748
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: and and go into strange places and and just having experiences, right,

749
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: collecting experiences as we call it, right And and again

750
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: you've made your passion, your location, the writing and the fitness,

751
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: and now putting those together with the travel. Um. But

752
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,919
Speaker 1: you're getting outside your comfort zone, although I would argue

753
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: we both enjoy that that's part of the fun. But

754
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: such an example of people just you know, do what

755
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: you love. To do. Get outside that comfort zone because

756
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: there's so much good stuff to find that's kind of

757
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: in your book as well, and just follow your curiosity,

758
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: you know, going back to where the idea for this

759
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: book came from, I was on top of a StairMaster

760
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: and instead of doing my program, I thought, I'm going

761
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: to go to the library and see physic book and

762
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: the history of exercise. And my I had no master

763
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: plan for this book, Tom, I was really following my

764
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: curiosity where one research finding led to another and it

765
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: was all very intuitive. Um and I was lucky to

766
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 1: have this Goggenheim Foundation grant which allowed me to do

767
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: some traveling that I might not otherwise have been able

768
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: to do. But it's so authentic, and you know, it's

769
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: a word I would say, it's probably abused or you know,

770
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: used to uh frequently, but it truly is. And I

771
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: got that's the sense I got. So I said, you know,

772
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: I so love this book, and you're truly just going

773
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: where it took you right and then leaving in your

774
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: story in and now with the boxing and and the yoga,

775
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: and by the way, you confirmed what the research shows

776
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: that men generally only go to yoga for one of

777
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: two or both reasons. You probably know they're hurt and

778
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: the significant other takes them. And it's usually both. They're

779
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: hurt and their significant other takes them. Right, men are

780
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: just not good? Why that is so true? That is

781
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: very humbling. I'm not a talented yoga practitioner, but it

782
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: did fascinate me, and it was interesting to look into

783
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: the history of yoga. It really knew nothing about it

784
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: before I started, and and that's in there. But you're

785
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: like me to like I go to yoga, I'm not

786
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: good at it. I'm more into the vanity side of

787
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: changing over the years. Right. But when I go into

788
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: yoga class, I walk up to the instruct and I go, listen,

789
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: Please don't I'm gonna sit at the back like I'm

790
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 1: gonna pull a hat down really well, like, don't point

791
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: me out, don't draw attention to me. I'm gonna embarrass myself.

792
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: Some people know that I'm a fitness guy, and I'm

793
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: gonna be stumbling and sweating everywhere. And it's not with

794
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: the women in the class. Necessarily, they're not happy I'm

795
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: there to begin with, Right, So please don't draw any

796
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: more attention to me. Um, I could keep you hours

797
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: such a great book again, Sweat History of Exercise. Cannot

798
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: recommend it more highly. As we kind of wind up,

799
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: I was really curious or interested. I should say that

800
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: you don't like you talk about mirror and connected fitness.

801
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 1: I understand why, but talk about your feelings and experience

802
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: with that type of connected fitness. Yeah, I mean some

803
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: of this came up during the pandemic when you know,

804
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: we all had to go cold Turkey, when Jim's closed

805
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: around the world during the lockdown, and I sort of

806
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: pivoted and developed a home exercise routine, just body weight

807
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: exercises like push ups and turn ups and sit ups,

808
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: a little bit of yoga, and this is what I

809
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: really sort of appreciated more than ever. Walking as exercise.

810
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: I would get out because I was I live alone,

811
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: you know, had to get out of the apartment and

812
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: just take a walk. What fascinated me during the pandemic

813
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: was how people were drawn naturally intuitively together to exercise,

814
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: even in those days when we had to keep six

815
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: feet distance from one another. I live in New York

816
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: and there's piers down on the Hudson that are grass

817
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: covered and very quickly, you know, group fitness classes formed

818
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: spontaneously yoga classes, but also equally fascinating people just exercising

819
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: by themselves, but in a group. And I think what

820
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: it speaks to it's a kind of social aspect to

821
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: exercising that's really important. And Jim's can certainly serve that role,

822
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: almost like community centers in some cases. It certainly was

823
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: that way during the eighties and nineties in San Francisco

824
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: during the AIDS pandemic. So I think there's a kind

825
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: of social aspect that can't be overlooked. And I'm personally

826
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: glad to have my gym back open now that we're

827
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: in a better stage during this pandemic. Yeah, you know,

828
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: far too often in fitness, exercise, nutrition, it's all or nothing, right,

829
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's weight, it's not you know, freeway, it's

830
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: not machines or you have to do this so that

831
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 1: no do it all. You know, I have a term

832
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: I use, and I actually want to ask you, excessive moderation.

833
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 1: You know, that's what I preach. And it's so great

834
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: to read your book Ago, that's what they were talking about.

835
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: Did you come across So he was more longevity, Um,

836
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: the guy that was into longevity same time frame though,

837
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: um Luigi Cornaro The Art of Living Long? Did that

838
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: book come up? I don't think that that didn't come

839
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: up for me. I should look for it, you should, well,

840
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: and well, you know it's more about longevity. But it

841
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: was the same exact time frame, and it's the same

842
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: stuff he was preaching, the same stuff about, you know, moderation.

843
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: And I mean he was a little extreme, like he

844
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: cut his cow. He's way back, but he lived to

845
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: be supposed two right in the in the sixteenth century.

846
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: You go, that's good, like he's thing. But but I

847
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: love that because you probably get asked to and will

848
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: and all these podcasts like what's the future of fitness?

849
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it mirror? Is it working at home?

850
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: And I always go, it's all the above. Find what

851
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: you love to do and mix it up. Yeah, it

852
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 1: is all of the above. And I didn't really get

853
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: to your question about the mirror. Um, it's just not

854
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: my thing. You didn't for some reason. I didn't really

855
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: get drawn to doing Instagram live workouts or that sort

856
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: of thing. But I think it's great. It opened up

857
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: all these options. And of course, like you, I'm sure

858
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: I've had friends who decided not to rejoin a gym.

859
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: They found they could do it on their own at

860
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: home or following a trainer on YouTube or whatever. So

861
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: I think it's actually opened up even or possibilities for exercise.

862
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: I tell people think of exercise as synonymous with movement,

863
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: any kind of movement, So it doesn't have to take

864
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: place in the gym. It doesn't have to be a

865
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: run by the water. You could dance in your apartment

866
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: for twenty minutes, dance hard, so hard you sweat, right,

867
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: and um, you just keep the body moving. I totally agree.

868
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,959
Speaker 1: And you know, I think a lot of those people,

869
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: even that are kind of doing the home workouts, will eventually,

870
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: you know, start doing stuff outside and with people, because

871
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: that's who we're meant to be doing it with. Right,

872
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: I would say, it's like a movie theaters will still

873
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: be around, Bill, Right, We'll do a lot of our

874
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: consuming of of media at home with Netflix and all

875
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: that stuff, but we still want to go laughing with

876
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: a group of people. I love teaching, you know, group

877
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: fitness in the city. There's nothing like sweating with a

878
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: bunch of people doing that same rhythmic thing as you

879
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: talk about in the book too. It's magical. It's magical,

880
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: it's created, it's inspiring. You know, I say that the

881
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: gym is one place where copying is never cheated. So

882
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: when I go to the gym, like if I see

883
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: guys or women working out like new exercises or new

884
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: workouts that I've never tried, you know, with dumbells or

885
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: barbells or whatever, you can really pick up tips just

886
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: by watching people who are really have great technique and

887
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: have great physiques and so forth. So yeah, it's the physiquing.

888
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: Copy copying is never copying, is never cheating at the gym.

889
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: I love that one A perfect place to kind of

890
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: end it because that's how I started. You know, I

891
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 1: watched guys in the gym. I said, he looks like

892
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: I want to look. He doesn't seem to be hurt.

893
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: He's here every day. Um, And as you said, like

894
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: nothing's new. We're all stealing from someone and now we're learning.

895
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: We're stealing from people who were in the sixteenth century, right,

896
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: So uh, you know, find people who have what you

897
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: want and do what they did to get there. Not

898
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: what they say they do in venus, right, not that

899
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: Instagram snapshot in time, but see what they actually do

900
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: their behaviors built. So happy to have met you and

901
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: read your book and thank you for it, and you're

902
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: gonna have huge success with it. What's next? Is there

903
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: a fitness thing to come out after this? Uh? You know,

904
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a photographer as well as a writer, and

905
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: I go back and forth. I'm a believer in the

906
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: theory of crop rotation. So after after working on this

907
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: book for such a long time, I'm going to put

908
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: together a volume of my photography. I think that's the

909
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: next project up for me. See, I love it because

910
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: I'm the same way, I get bored. I need to

911
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: do a bunch of different things. That's why I say

912
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not really a team player that I gotta

913
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: I gotta get out there. Do. I think I'm good

914
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: within the team, but um yeah, you know, we need

915
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: to kind of be creative in different ways, right. So

916
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: I love that and I look forward to all that. Hopefully,

917
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: UM get to see that as well, because this book

918
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 1: is You're an amazing writer and again because it is

919
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: something you truly believe in. And I was saying, like,

920
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: we're selling the greatest product in the world, which is

921
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: a living longer, feeling better looking better and you get

922
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: all three regardless of why you try or why you

923
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: start right. So I look forward to speaking again, hopefully

924
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: in the near future. Congrats, I'd love to talk to

925
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: you again. This is really fun. Thanks so much for

926
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: having me. Thanks so much again. It is sweat A

927
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: history of exercise could not be more straightforward. Get the book.

928
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: Read it. It is entertaining, it is educational, and it

929
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,720
Speaker 1: will help you better your life. Guarantee it. As crazy

930
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: as that sounds, it is absolutely true. Bill, have a

931
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: great day, Speak soon YouTube. Thanks so much, and we'll

932
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: be right back after this short break and we are back.

933
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 1: Why do I want to say every time I interview

934
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: someone that I wanted more time, that's the lack of time.

935
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: And I say it because after every interview, these people

936
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: are people I can learn from and you can learn

937
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: from and who can help us live better lives. And

938
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: there pieces to a puzzle. That's kind of what this

939
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: podcast is about. I'm grabbing different pieces to put the

940
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: puzzle together, and each of my guests, each of the topics,

941
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: are part of that puzzle. And I'm going to bring

942
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: you these unique perspectives and histories and you know, evolutionary

943
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: perspectives and information so that you can put together your

944
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 1: puzzle and figure out your journey, because there is no

945
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: one way. But we look at the history, we look

946
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: at the evolution, we look at the empirical data, we

947
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: look at what behaviors we can change, and then we

948
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: start to figure it out. And Bill Hayes book Sweat

949
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: the History of Exercise is incredibly deep into the history.

950
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: And I'll leave you with this. You know what I

951
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: say frequently is when I talk to the experts, I

952
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: want corroboration, right. I want I want them to talk

953
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: about the things that work, and I want to hear

954
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: it from many different people. I went consensus right, And

955
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: that's what's far too often the opposite of what people

956
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: are looking for when it comes to health and wellness,

957
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: exercise and nutrition. You're looking for that silver bulley, the

958
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: thing that a conoclass, Oh my gosh, the newest breakthrough. No, no, no.

959
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 1: In the fift hundreds, they were telling you what you

960
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: needed to know, and they're telling you in And what's

961
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: so interesting in this book. I'm a little biased in

962
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: that I'm not a doctor. I want to keep people

963
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: from the doctor. But how interesting Now, yes, they couldn't

964
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: dissect bodies. But Bill talks about how doctors had so

965
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,879
Speaker 1: many things wrong, which is understandable because they couldn't study

966
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: it in the way they needed to. But trainers pretty

967
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: much had it right. Trainers had it right. I didn't

968
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: read many of the quotes, s Gott. You should see

969
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: my crazy studio when I interview someone like Bill, I

970
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: got notes everywhere. It's like the movie A Beautiful Mind

971
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: when you walk in and there's just craziness everywhere. All right.

972
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: They talk about moderation, they talk about high intensity interval training,

973
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: how you have to get breathless. Okay, all of those

974
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: things that we talked about today they were talking about. Then,

975
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: all right, let me read that line one more time

976
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: from the fifteen hundreds. I'm gonna mispronounce the name. I'm

977
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 1: gonna try mirror mercurial. Okay, fifteen hundreds, the book that

978
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 1: he was in search of, and the the information from

979
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: that book. They are GYMNASTICA fifteen sixty nine. Those who

980
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: exercise moderately and appropriately can lead a healthy life that

981
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: does not depend on any drugs. But those who do

982
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: so without proper care are racked by prepared actual ill

983
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: health and require constant medication. Are you kidding me? Are

984
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 1: you kidding me? You have the answers. It's the behavioral

985
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: modifications we need to talk about in the journey, and

986
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: the stopping of following programs and people and potions that

987
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: don't work. One last quote I didn't even bring up

988
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: in the the interview from Mercuriality. He who wishes to

989
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: be freed from obesity must spoil leisure and exercise as

990
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: strenuously as possible, to the point where the breath is

991
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: panting on account of effort. So he talks about moderation,

992
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: but he also talks about high intensity interval training, mixing

993
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:43,320
Speaker 1: it up. People, Are you kidding me? It's incredible. I know,

994
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: I get excited because I'm so passionate about this. And

995
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: again there's the consensus. We've had consensus on excessive moderation

996
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: since at least and you can go even farther back.

997
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: But how interesting. Thank you Bill Hayes for doing the work.

998
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: And there's so much work. He traveled the world, he

999
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: sat and read and read and read, and now you

1000
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: just have to read one book to get all of

1001
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: the work that he did. And it's incredibly valuable. All right,

1002
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: Good enough, sweat a history of exercise, could not recommend

1003
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: it more highly entertaining and educational, which I hope the

1004
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 1: show is too. All right, Yeah, if you want to

1005
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: reach out, if you have to reach out, No, I

1006
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: want you to reach out. See I'm tired. I'm mentally tired.

1007
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: I get I get worked up when I get to

1008
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: interact with again people who are gonna make my life

1009
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: better and yours. Tom h Fit his instagram, Tom h

1010
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 1: Fit is Twitter, reach out, messages, comments, questions, Fitness Disrupted

1011
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: dot com. Email me through the site, Please subscribe, follow

1012
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: whatever way you can connect to the show, do it

1013
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 1: greatly appreciated. Comment if you can, if you want to

1014
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 1: get a couple of extra minutes. My most recent book

1015
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 1: is The micro Workout Plan, goes to the moderation that

1016
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: all of these people talked about. And remember, there are

1017
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: three things we all control. How much we move the movement,

1018
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: what we put into our mouths, what passes our whips.

1019
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: It's up to us and our attitudes, our frame of mind,

1020
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: our mindset. That's awesome. I am Tom Holland, excise physiologist,

1021
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: certified sports nutritionists and author who hopes to one day

1022
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: right half as well as Bill Hayes, incredible writer. Read

1023
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: his book Sweat Mystery of Exercise. Thank you for listening

1024
00:57:54,440 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: and believe in yourself. Fitness to Disrupted is a production

1025
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1026
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1027
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.