Speaker 1: We all know that genuine self compassion and self love
Speaker 1: are absolutely crucial in the quest for healing, transformation, and
Speaker 1: everyday growth, But what if we struggle to get there.
Speaker 1: One of the most powerful, yet effortless ways to settle
Speaker 1: our nervous system and reconnect with our true selves is
Speaker 1: by spending quality time in nature. It's for this reason
Speaker 1: that this August I'll be offering an in person Awakening
Speaker 1: in the Outdoors retreat at the Beautiful Cropollu Center. This summer,
Speaker 1: I'll be co teaching the retreat with Ralph de l Rosa,
Speaker 1: who's a three time guest of the podcast, author, psychologist,
Speaker 1: meditation teacher and friend. During these five days together, will
Speaker 1: enjoy hikes, outdoor meditations, art, insightful workshops, and lively discussions.
Speaker 1: Our goal is for you to walk away feeling restored,
Speaker 1: with a firm awareness of new resources and a new
Speaker 1: relationship with the gifts nature holds for us. To learn
Speaker 1: more about this special retreat and sign up, go to
Speaker 1: oneufeed dot net slash nature.
Speaker 2: We actually all have the ability to be inherently mindful,
Speaker 2: inherently aware, and Nature supports that.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 3: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 3: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 3: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 3: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 3: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 3: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 3: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 3: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 3: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 3: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 3: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 3: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Mark Coleman,
Speaker 3: an instructor at Spirit Rock Meditation Center who has taught
Speaker 3: insight meditation retreats since nineteen ninety seven worldwide. Mark is
Speaker 3: passionate about integrating meditation in nature and leads wilderness retreats
Speaker 3: through his organization, Awake in the Wild, as well as
Speaker 3: nature based meditation teacher trainings. As the co founder of
Speaker 3: the Mindfulness Training Institute, Mark also leads year long mindfulness
Speaker 3: teacher trainings in the US and Europe. He's the author
Speaker 3: of Awaken the Wild, Mindfulness in Nature as a path
Speaker 3: of self discovery and make Peace with your Mind from
Speaker 3: Suffering to Peace, and his latest book, A Field Guide
Speaker 3: to Nature Meditation fifty two Mindfulness Practices for Wisdom, Joy
Speaker 3: and Wonder.
Speaker 1: Hi, Mark, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Hey, good to see you, Eric and Jinny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's nice to have you on again. And as
Speaker 1: you just mentioned, Ginny is sitting here next to me,
Speaker 1: so happy to be here, happy to have her here.
Speaker 1: And we're going to be discussing your book called A
Speaker 1: Field Guide to Nature Meditation fifty two Mindfulness Practices for Joy,
Speaker 1: Wisdom and Wonder. But before we do that, we'll start
Speaker 1: like we always do, with a parable. In the parable,
Speaker 1: there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and there's
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the grandchild stopped. They think about it
Speaker 1: for a second. They look up at their grandparent and
Speaker 1: they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: your life and in the work that you do. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Thanks, Eric. It's a great question and a great powable
Speaker 2: when I use in my own teaching. And what it
Speaker 2: brings to mind is having studied in the Buddhist tradition
Speaker 2: for a long time, and I remember really early on
Speaker 2: in the eighties, I walked into this Dama Center's Buddhist Center,
Speaker 2: and like we've talked about this, we shard I was
Speaker 2: a punk walking into that center, and I was very unhappy.
Speaker 2: I was very fixated on what was wrong with society, governments, politics,
Speaker 2: the world, people, my family. I had very critical, negative mind,
Speaker 2: including towards myself, and you could say I was really
Speaker 2: feeding that very negative, critical, angry blaming judge side of myself.
Speaker 2: And I was miserable. I was stressed, I was suffering,
Speaker 2: I was hurting. And I heard this teaching from the
Speaker 2: Buddha where it goes something like whatever the mind frequently
Speaker 2: dwells and ponders upon, that becomes the inclination of the
Speaker 2: mind and the heart. Something about that really struck comes. Oh,
Speaker 2: whatever I'm focusing on on, that's what I become. You
Speaker 2: know what they now say in neuroscience, whatever fires together,
Speaker 2: wires together, And so I really got oh, I can
Speaker 2: actually shift my frame of attention, shift my focus to
Speaker 2: not necessarily just looking at what's wrong, what's problematic, who's
Speaker 2: to blame, but actually also noticing what's okay. So I
Speaker 2: was living in East London. It was very run down
Speaker 2: at the time, very depressed, very gritty urban as in
Speaker 2: this working class neighborhood. And I took this teaching to
Speaker 2: heart and I decided to focus on anything that was uplifting,
Speaker 2: like the sun hitting a building, a London poplar tree
Speaker 2: on my street in bethnal Green, any birds that happened
Speaker 2: to kind of survive London smock and so I just
Speaker 2: started noticing that which was uplifting, or noticing a mother
Speaker 2: being very sweet to her kid, you know, or kids
Speaker 2: playing in the park near me, and shifting my attention
Speaker 2: to not fixating on what was negative and wrong, but
Speaker 2: what was actually wholesome or good or uplifting, especially for
Speaker 2: me around nature, really transform my mental state. I began
Speaker 2: to actually feel brighter. I feel more positive, less negative
Speaker 2: and less depressed. Actually, so that's one theme that comes
Speaker 2: from hearing that story comes to mind.
Speaker 1: Would you like to follow that up? Yeah? Yeah, can I.
Speaker 4: Was hoping you would, yeh, because I feel like I
Speaker 4: might know where you're going on.
Speaker 2: That's great.
Speaker 1: So, you know, I love that idea of not focusing
Speaker 1: so much on the negative, turning towards the positive. And
Speaker 1: there's a similar idea that goes along with a lot
Speaker 1: of mindfulness, which is to be with what is whatever
Speaker 1: is arising. Right. So on one hand, there's that teaching
Speaker 1: of the Buddha that you talked about that seems to
Speaker 1: point towards changing the channel towards what's positive, right, and
Speaker 1: then there's at the same time instructions that say be
Speaker 1: with what's present. How do you find that you balance
Speaker 1: sort of those two energies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a great question. So how I frame
Speaker 2: that is? You can think of it in terms of sequentiality,
Speaker 2: if that's a word, sequencing where it's true in mindfulness practice,
Speaker 2: the emphasis on be with what is, notice, be aware,
Speaker 2: feel sense, allow, accept, be curious, right, and then mostly
Speaker 2: receptive passive observational qualities orientation, And that's really the essence
Speaker 2: of mindless practice, which is quite radical because we're so
Speaker 2: often not with experience. We're busy fiddling, fixing, proving, judging, changing, avoiding.
Speaker 2: So just that is so radical to be with whatever
Speaker 2: it is, both the beauty and the sorrow. But mindfulness
Speaker 2: is always in service of wisdom, service of understanding, service
Speaker 2: of freedom. So we don't just stop with the noticing. Right,
Speaker 2: So I might notice, for example, like I have chronic pain,
Speaker 2: So I can't ignore the chronic pain because it's there.
Speaker 2: So I feel the pain, feel the sensation. Or I
Speaker 2: might wake up in the morning and feel grumpy or
Speaker 2: tired or achy from exercising or from body stuff. I'd
Speaker 2: be with that. I feel it, I notice it, and
Speaker 2: then I ask, what else is here? What else is present? Oh?
Speaker 2: I notice, Yeah, my back ache is there. But I
Speaker 2: look out the window and the rains have stopped from
Speaker 2: these storms we're having here in northern California, and it's
Speaker 2: a beautiful sunny day and it's actually a spring day,
Speaker 2: and there's light on the leaves, and there's blossoms on
Speaker 2: the trees, and my cat's sleeping on the bed, looking
Speaker 2: very cute. And so it's yes and right, it's not yes,
Speaker 2: but or no, not quite. I'll go somewhere else. No,
Speaker 2: it's acknowledging and then also widening the lens. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: of course at times we need to just be with
Speaker 2: our heart ache or our sadness or our body pain
Speaker 2: or tenderness or whatever with And there's also a lot
Speaker 2: of times where to fixate on the pain, for example,
Speaker 2: or what I'm not liking about myself or my life
Speaker 2: that's not healthy. It just leads to more negative, critical
Speaker 2: spiraling mind states. And actually to shift the attention say
Speaker 2: yes and helps bring balance.
Speaker 4: I love that I realize now that something I frequently
Speaker 4: do when I'm meditating, as it relates to when I
Speaker 4: catch myself thinking that the practice and the language I
Speaker 4: use likely now I realized came from you because you
Speaker 4: just said it, but I thought that.
Speaker 1: I had come up with it.
Speaker 4: However, there's no original thought, as it turns out in
Speaker 4: the world.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: But that's what I do with my thoughts is I'll notice,
Speaker 4: oh thinking, and instead of making that bad or like,
Speaker 4: oh no, don't think, don't think, focus on something else.
Speaker 4: I've been saying yes to thinking, and then say and
Speaker 4: what else is here? And what else is present? So
Speaker 4: that I'm widening that aperture to include more instead of
Speaker 4: cutting the thing, looking out of my experience in service
Speaker 4: of some other type of experience. Right, So I love
Speaker 4: the way that you just said that I really.
Speaker 2: Connected beautiful, yes and yeah, very.
Speaker 1: Healthful a framework I heard. I think it was doctor
Speaker 1: Rick Hanson who shared about it, which is like, you know,
Speaker 1: think of a garden, like you've got to be aware
Speaker 1: of what's in the garden. You know, that's the mindfulness
Speaker 1: being with seeing what's there. And he didn't come up
Speaker 1: with this analogy, but planting seeds, putting good things in,
Speaker 1: and pulling weeds and that kind of all three of
Speaker 1: those have their place. Knowing which to use at what
Speaker 1: times I think is the nuance. And I love the
Speaker 1: idea of sequentiality, meaning start in one place and then
Speaker 1: move to the next.
Speaker 2: I think that's really important because we're so quick to
Speaker 2: get to the fix, improve, resolve, strategize, get rid of
Speaker 2: and so not trained in just first allowing, accepting, being,
Speaker 2: really feeling fully what's here, whatever that is in a
Speaker 2: non defended way. And often just the being with awareness
Speaker 2: is actually the resolution. But sometimes other strategies are also
Speaker 2: needed to balance.
Speaker 1: I assume five seconds is enough time to be with
Speaker 1: those negative emotions.
Speaker 4: Yeah, rule, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 4: I love Eric that you brought up the garden. It
Speaker 4: segues us beautifully into Mark's work in nature and practicing
Speaker 4: mindfulness in nature, which you really have decades of practicing
Speaker 4: and also teaching others to do. And in this new
Speaker 4: book you have, and I love the way you titled
Speaker 4: it a field Guide to Nature Meditation. You can bring
Speaker 4: it out with you into nature like a field guide.
Speaker 4: It's so clever and so useful. And you write about
Speaker 4: nature in such a vivid way, in such a beautiful way.
Speaker 4: I can tell how close you've been to nature and
Speaker 4: how much you've fallen in love with it in the
Speaker 4: way that you write about it. I was wondering if
Speaker 4: you would read for just so that we can hear
Speaker 4: your voice reading these beautiful words, to bring us into
Speaker 4: this place of imagining what it is like. Maybe we
Speaker 4: can all think back to an experience that connects but
Speaker 4: what it's like to be mindful in nature. So in
Speaker 4: your introduction, I was wondering if you could just read
Speaker 4: maybe the first four small paragraphs.
Speaker 2: Starting with as I step outside, Yes, all right, here
Speaker 2: we go. As I step outside of the isolated cottage
Speaker 2: in the woods. At dawn, I leave behind the familiar
Speaker 2: and muted experience of being indoors. I move into the
Speaker 2: crisp morning air and feel a jolt of alertness as
Speaker 2: I sense the cold against my face. My attention quickens
Speaker 2: as I step barefoot on the spongy ground carpeted in
Speaker 2: pine needles, I realize how soft the forest floor is.
Speaker 2: Suddenly I'm attuned to innumerable things I was oblivious of indoors.
Speaker 2: I'm acutely aware of all the faint sounds, whispers of
Speaker 2: the forest beginning to wake up, and birds beginning their
Speaker 2: morning conversations. I recognize the subtle fragrance of the earth.
Speaker 2: After the evening rain has moistened the soil, I begin
Speaker 2: to see infinite shades of green as light enters the
Speaker 2: forest canopy. When I come across a small pond, I
Speaker 2: pause awhile the stillness of the water naturally draws me
Speaker 2: into a state of contemplation. I sense the quietude of
Speaker 2: the morning, the hush of the forest, the tranquility of
Speaker 2: stones that line the water's edge. I feel invited into
Speaker 2: a natural meditation, attuned to the serenity of nature. I
Speaker 2: notice the same peacefulness arising within me. The notion of
Speaker 2: being a visitor in the forest vanishes as I begin
Speaker 2: to feel part of the forest, welcomed and connected. This,
Speaker 2: i remember, is why I step outdoors as often as
Speaker 2: possible to experience the beauty, serenity, and joy of nature.
Speaker 2: It allows me to act access a natural quality of meditation,
Speaker 2: a state I call mesative awareness, where one is naturally attentive.
Speaker 2: It is a quality that is fully embodied, meaning I'm
Speaker 2: inhabiting my physical experience, attuned to my senses, grounded and alert.
Speaker 2: This is mindfulness in nature and it is at the
Speaker 2: heart of nature meditation. It is a quality of attention
Speaker 2: we can cultivate in any landscape, and with the right intention,
Speaker 2: it is possible to access any time we spend time outdoors.
Speaker 4: Beautiful. I mean that to me just sets the table right.
Speaker 4: We get to see what is possible when it comes
Speaker 4: to connecting with nature, and for many of us, we
Speaker 4: don't get to spend that much time in nature, and
Speaker 4: so this might feel something that was present for us
Speaker 4: in our childhood, or was once present for us, or
Speaker 4: we wish could be more present for us. But the
Speaker 4: beautiful thing that you point out is that first step
Speaker 4: out into nature with awareness that this attention and this
Speaker 4: present moment embodiment can come quite effortlessly, and that's the
Speaker 4: beauty of doing so in nature. Can you talk a
Speaker 4: little bit about what it means to be mindful in
Speaker 4: nature and to meditate in nature and why we would
Speaker 4: use that setting as a place to do so.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Thanks, So what I've learned over the years, And this
Speaker 2: really wasn't It just sort of came to me over
Speaker 2: the years of my own meditation journey. It started early
Speaker 2: on when I was living in London and I would
Speaker 2: learn meditation, and much as I love the city, I
Speaker 2: also needed green space to just sort of balance all
Speaker 2: that kind of busy urban craziness. And I noticed that
Speaker 2: when i'd go to a park or go visit my
Speaker 2: parents in the country and I take my meditation and
Speaker 2: I just sit quiet, like I mentioned, sit by pond
Speaker 2: or by a tree or in the wood somewhere, that
Speaker 2: all that struggle that I used to feel indoors trying
Speaker 2: to meditate, as most of us do, struggling with our thoughts,
Speaker 2: mind's all over the place, hard to focus. We notice
Speaker 2: a breath or two, and then we've gone onto some
Speaker 2: memory thought loop. Story, and I just noticed that when
Speaker 2: I was outside that happened much less, that there was
Speaker 2: so much more stimulation that was pleasantly inviting me into
Speaker 2: the present moment with ease rather than struggle. And so
Speaker 2: whether it was listening to the sound of birds because
Speaker 2: in England the birds song is really loud and beautiful,
Speaker 2: or the sound of the wind, or feeling the warm
Speaker 2: sun on my face, or walking through the woods and
Speaker 2: just noticing the beauty of the trees or whatever flowers sky.
Speaker 2: I just began to see that nature invites us into
Speaker 2: the present in a very natural, relaxed, organic way. And
Speaker 2: as I said, the struggle to be mindful sort of
Speaker 2: fell away, and it's just like, oh, I just have
Speaker 2: to be here, I sor put my body here and
Speaker 2: just pay attention to what's happening around me sight, sound, smells, touch, breeze, movement, light,
Speaker 2: And that was a very easy way to just settle
Speaker 2: into the present moment and also very joyful, very hard opening.
Speaker 2: You know, we're pleasure seeking beings, so if an experience
Speaker 2: is pleasant like bird song, breeze, light, forest smells green,
Speaker 2: we want to be present. You know, I often joke
Speaker 2: with people I take the people into these beautiful places
Speaker 2: and the big coast or up in the mountains, and
Speaker 2: I say, why wouldn't you want to be present here,
Speaker 2: you know, with the sunrise, or with the sound of birds,
Speaker 2: or the green valleys that we're looking at, or the
Speaker 2: flowers in spring. And so it's a great counterpoint, especially
Speaker 2: for the many, if not majority, of people who find
Speaker 2: meditation kind of like a lot of work and it's
Speaker 2: kind of burdensome, and it's kind of like, oh, I've
Speaker 2: got to do this because I know it's good for me,
Speaker 2: but I really it's like going to the gyms. I
Speaker 2: don't really want to go, but I know it's good
Speaker 2: for me, so I'll do it. Whereas we can just relax.
Speaker 2: And actually, the more you relax in nature, the more
Speaker 2: present you become. And so it's a great teacher in
Speaker 2: what it means to be mindful, which is we actually
Speaker 2: all have the ability to be inherently mindful, inherently aware,
Speaker 2: and nature supports that. Nature invites that natural quality, and
Speaker 2: it becomes more efforless and more engaging.
Speaker 1: That was absolutely my experience. You know, I had tried
Speaker 1: meditating for a long time, doing the standard sitting breath
Speaker 1: practices and all that, And at one point I started
Speaker 1: meditating outdoors and I just did it on my way
Speaker 1: to work. As I would drive in, I would stop.
Speaker 1: There was a couple of different parks I could go to,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't completely quiet as far as like you know,
Speaker 1: there were birds, there were trucks, it was all there.
Speaker 1: But there was something about it doing the sound that
Speaker 1: really was so helpful. And up till now I hadn't
Speaker 1: put two and two together. I had thought it was
Speaker 1: because I was listening and sound is my thing, but
Speaker 1: I realize that it was the part of it also
Speaker 1: was the nature, and it really was far easy for
Speaker 1: me to do than more of a standard meditation. It's
Speaker 1: not that I didn't still have to put effort forth,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that I didn't still have to try and focus,
Speaker 1: but it felt like seventy five percent easier to me,
Speaker 1: and I loved doing it. So that certainly is my experience,
Speaker 1: and I think it's important that you point out in
Speaker 1: the book, and the point I'm making here is you
Speaker 1: don't have to be deep in the woods for this
Speaker 1: stuff to apply.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do a lot of my meditation, so that
Speaker 2: out there is my rooftop of my office and I
Speaker 2: jump out this window, which I've been doing for years,
Speaker 2: and that's one of my main meditation spots. In fact,
Speaker 2: when I teach the sunrise meditation, which I've did since
Speaker 2: the beginning of the pandemic on Zoom, i would mostly
Speaker 2: broadcast from there, and then also from my front patio,
Speaker 2: which I can see the sunrise and just that, like
Speaker 2: there's a beautiful oak tree. Like I'm we're between two
Speaker 2: streets here, but there's oak tree. There's a red wit
Speaker 2: tree next to that. There's sky above, there's clouds. I
Speaker 2: noticed the migrating birds coming back now in winter and spring.
Speaker 2: I feel the fresh air. I smelled the smell of
Speaker 2: the rain. Yeah, it can be sitting in your garden.
Speaker 2: It can be sitting in a park. It can be
Speaker 2: looking at a tree through your window on a cold,
Speaker 2: rainy or windy day in Minnesota where it's you know,
Speaker 2: ten below and winchill. It's amazing how even the smallest
Speaker 2: access to nature plant, tree, garden, or the view of
Speaker 2: a sky from a window. You know, we're in nature species, right,
Speaker 2: We've grown up, we evolved in nature. It's only recently
Speaker 2: we live in these buildings. And glass and cased houses,
Speaker 2: and so our body resonates. You know, there's this lovely
Speaker 2: phrase attention restoration therapy that studies how our brain is
Speaker 2: much more RESTful in nature because the brain is familiar
Speaker 2: with processing trees, leaves, clouds, flowers, animals, because that's what
Speaker 2: we've evolved with. We haven't evolved with lamp shades and
Speaker 2: you know, you know, screens, and so that's a lot
Speaker 2: of work for the brain. So there's something very naturally RESTful.
Speaker 2: And also that restfulness for most people, not for everybody,
Speaker 2: but for most people is also you know, it's a
Speaker 2: lovely support for meditation. Our nervous system relaxes, our heart
Speaker 2: rate goes down, our cortisol goes down, and we start
Speaker 2: to feel more ease. So many of us are craving
Speaker 2: that ease or that antidote to the reving anxiety and
Speaker 2: the stress and the overstimulation. So my main instruction to
Speaker 2: people at the end of every teaching I give is
Speaker 2: go outside, Go outside, go outside. The Buddha at the
Speaker 2: end of a teacher used to say, there are trees,
Speaker 2: and there are the roots of trees. Go sit by
Speaker 2: them lest you regret it later. My instructions, just get
Speaker 2: outside outside, sit anywhere is good, or walk anywhere is good.
Speaker 2: You know, when we're indoors, most of our focus is
Speaker 2: about me, myself and I me and my life and
Speaker 2: my dramas, my stories and my plans and my project
Speaker 2: and that's all fine. It's just being human. When we
Speaker 2: go outside, it's like, oh, oh there's a whole world.
Speaker 2: Oh it's raining, Oh it's spring. Oh it's dusk. Oh
Speaker 2: there's a moon. You know, there's a crowdside my deck
Speaker 2: my house. There's a pair of them and they're building
Speaker 2: a nest. Like, oh, it's springtime and the birds are
Speaker 2: building nests. It just takes us into this whole other
Speaker 2: world beyond ourselves, which going back to the early thing
Speaker 2: about shifting attention from me, myself and my problems to oh,
Speaker 2: there's a whole world out there, and that actually is
Speaker 2: just good for mental health to widen that lens of attention.
Speaker 4: I love having a name or a term for why
Speaker 4: our brain can be almost at rest with some support
Speaker 4: of just remembering. It's really just remembering how to be present,
Speaker 4: you know, learning how to be where our feet are,
Speaker 4: and nature just just so supportive of that. And I
Speaker 4: love having a term for that. You know, maybe we
Speaker 4: should back up just a step and define this term mindfulness.
Speaker 4: I did not mention this to listeners at the beginning,
Speaker 4: but you are one of my two teachers who created
Speaker 4: the curriculum and then guided me through the process of
Speaker 4: becoming a certified mindfulness teacher. So one of the exercises,
Speaker 4: one of the very first exercises that you and Martin Aylward,
Speaker 4: the other teacher, had us do in small groups, is
Speaker 4: to define what is mindfulness? Which seems, you know first glance,
Speaker 4: like it should be a very easy thing to do. However,
Speaker 4: the more you learn about mindfulness, the harder it is
Speaker 4: to find words that actually capture the depth and breadth
Speaker 4: of it, isn't it. So you talk about how mindfulness
Speaker 4: is both a quality of mind and a practice that
Speaker 4: anyone can develop systematically. But how do you define mindfulness?
Speaker 2: Six million dollar question? So I like to keep things
Speaker 2: really simple, simple as good. So I mostly define it
Speaker 2: as clear awareness as the ability or the capacity to
Speaker 2: be present to know what's happening in an inner and
Speaker 2: outer experience. And that awareness is what allows us to
Speaker 2: know experience intimately and also illuminates experience. So we can
Speaker 2: live and relate to experience in the world with wisdom
Speaker 2: and clarity and care. But it really comes down to
Speaker 2: a simple, simple awareness, the simple knowing of experience of
Speaker 2: what's happening. Like right now, I'm aware of looking at
Speaker 2: you two, I'm aware of feeling the light from outside,
Speaker 2: I'm sensing my body, I'm hearing other sounds in the background.
Speaker 2: I'm aware of my thoughts and my handmoving. Like it's
Speaker 2: just that simple, innate human ability to be aware of
Speaker 2: what's happening. And then people might say, well, what's the
Speaker 2: big deal If we're already aware, then you know why
Speaker 2: all this meditation and training and retreats and because, as
Speaker 2: we know, we have this ability, but our attention is
Speaker 2: so often not in the present moment, so often pulled
Speaker 2: into the habit of thinking, daydreaming, lost in memories and plans,
Speaker 2: and so most people most of the time need support
Speaker 2: to actually learn how to really stay and abide present
Speaker 2: here in the moment. And that's what mindfulness practice is,
Speaker 2: and meditation is, and training is, and retreats are. But
Speaker 2: I think it's always important for all of us to
Speaker 2: know that it's natural and it's available, and why I
Speaker 2: like again of tailing to nature. Why I love doing
Speaker 2: this practice outside is that people realize, oh, when I'm
Speaker 2: at the beach and I'm just you know, sitting looking
Speaker 2: at the ocean, and you know, as we do, we
Speaker 2: can watch waves for hours, and that is being mindful.
Speaker 2: It's not a big deal. I'm just present sitting watching,
Speaker 2: listening to the waves, that's being mindful. If I go
Speaker 2: for a walk in the park, like, it's not hard
Speaker 2: to be present, you know. I mean, of course, we
Speaker 2: space out and we get drifting thoughts and we daydream,
Speaker 2: but you know, we can mostly be aware of you know,
Speaker 2: walking and smelling, seeing and enjoying. So nature, as I said,
Speaker 2: just makes the availability of mindfulness so much closer and easier.
Speaker 2: And then people realize, oh, I can do this anyway.
Speaker 2: Of course, we can cultivate it and refine it and
Speaker 2: deepen it and all of that, but it really is
Speaker 2: available here.
Speaker 1: Now this may be a question that's above both of
Speaker 1: our pay grades, but you know, you've been teaching people
Speaker 1: mindfulness for a while now, and it is this natural ability.
Speaker 1: Do you think that, generally speaking, that it's becoming harder
Speaker 1: to be mindful? Do you feel like people were better
Speaker 1: able easier to be mindful ten, fifteen, twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: Have you noticed anything like that. I'm just kind of
Speaker 1: curious because it feels a little bit to me like
Speaker 1: it's harder. And I hear people say that, but I'm
Speaker 1: kind of curious to someone from your perspective who's kind
Speaker 1: of watched people students over a great number of years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Eric, I think these things I'm lifting up
Speaker 2: a phone for those who can't see our devices, particularly
Speaker 2: our phones and our computers. I think the research is
Speaker 2: really pretty clear. The data is pretty clear that when
Speaker 2: we're using technology, it tends to minimum bifurcate our attention,
Speaker 2: it splits our attention. You know, most of us, when
Speaker 2: we're working on a computer, have ten screens open, and
Speaker 2: we're jumping between tasks all day long and checking our phones,
Speaker 2: and so we're always multitasking. And when we always multitask,
Speaker 2: we're always splitting our attention, which means we're not focused
Speaker 2: our attention. So when we come to be mindful and
Speaker 2: try to focus on one thing, like the breath, which
Speaker 2: is not that exciting compared to you know, rolling through
Speaker 2: you know, TikTok or whatever it is that is our
Speaker 2: chosen feed of interest. It's hard because we've trained our
Speaker 2: attention to focus on something for a few seconds, and
Speaker 2: then as soon as we're bored, as soon as we
Speaker 2: want a dopamine hit, we just open up another window
Speaker 2: and you know, look at something, you know, whether it's
Speaker 2: Google or video. And I think the research also has showed.
Speaker 2: Microsoft did this longitudinal study where they were tracking people's
Speaker 2: attention on a screen from two thousand to twenty sixteen
Speaker 2: or seventeen. Their research showed that our attention span where
Speaker 2: people were focusing on one thing went from twelve seconds
Speaker 2: to eight seconds, which is a fifty percent reduction in
Speaker 2: ability to sustain attention on the task at hand. So
Speaker 2: the joke is that goldfish can sustain their attention for
Speaker 2: nine seconds, and we've dropped down to eight. Were were
Speaker 2: subpar golfish at this point, but no, definitely. I think
Speaker 2: I noticed in myself. You know, I've been meditating since
Speaker 2: the mid eighties, and I had the luxury of having
Speaker 2: a meditation practice for a good twenty years or more
Speaker 2: before phones came out. You know, computers had come out
Speaker 2: in the late nineties for me anyway, and life felt
Speaker 2: simpler and slower. We were just less stimulated. So I
Speaker 2: think there's two things about your question. One is, initially
Speaker 2: it's harder, like when we can meditate either the beginning
Speaker 2: of our day or the end of our day and
Speaker 2: we sit for you know, ten twenty thirty minutes. I
Speaker 2: think that general experience is harder because we're so overstimulated,
Speaker 2: we're so busy having an attention that's really multitasking, that
Speaker 2: it's hard to settle. When people come on a retreat
Speaker 2: for you know, i'd say a minimum of like five
Speaker 2: to seven days and they get to kind of let
Speaker 2: go of those habits of scattered attention in multitasking, screen orientation,
Speaker 2: then I would say the difference between let's say twenty
Speaker 2: years ago and now is lefs. Yes, Like I think
Speaker 2: once people actually have the supportive conditions where they're learning
Speaker 2: to train their mind, the hardware is still sort of
Speaker 2: the same, and so the mind is infinitely trainable. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I think we need to really pay attention to what
Speaker 2: we're doing with our attention. You know, we live in
Speaker 2: this attention economy, and does checking your phone one hundred
Speaker 2: times a day or having ten screens open or multitasking
Speaker 2: all the time, is that really supporting your focus and
Speaker 2: well being. You know, it seems like, oh, I'm going
Speaker 2: to go for a walk and listen to a podcast,
Speaker 2: and that's fine. But new scientists will probably say, well,
Speaker 2: you're not really doing either. You're half walking and paying
Speaker 2: attention and you're half listening to the podcast. And when
Speaker 2: we multitask, we do each task less well, so it
Speaker 2: seems more expedient. Says, oh, I can kill two birds
Speaker 2: of one stone, catch up on my podcast, get some
Speaker 2: exercise in, and that's fine, and we all do that.
Speaker 2: You know, some variation on that, and it has an
Speaker 2: impact on our attention and that's interesting. Just a case
Speaker 2: in points. So I did a solo retreat recently. I
Speaker 2: was in a friend's house by the coast, and I
Speaker 2: called it my kind of resting and being retreat, and
Speaker 2: I meditated some, but it was a very light schedule.
Speaker 2: It was just very relaxed. I get up, make some teas,
Speaker 2: sit on the balcony, look at the sunrise, meditate a
Speaker 2: little slowly, make my breakfast. It was a digital free retreat,
Speaker 2: so there's no no screens, no phones, and I just
Speaker 2: did simple activity, cooking breakfast without rushing and without phone
Speaker 2: or music. Or podcast. It was actually very pleasurable, ordinary
Speaker 2: simple activity when we can just do it without rushing
Speaker 2: and thinking. It's doing this to get to the next
Speaker 2: best thing, the next stimulus. The whole retreat was quite lovely.
Speaker 2: It was super ordinary. You know, I'd meditate some, I
Speaker 2: do walking, meditation some, but mostly I was just being present,
Speaker 2: being human, doing ordinary stuff cooking, cleaning, washing up, walking, sitting,
Speaker 2: drinking tea, And it was really pleasurable. It is a
Speaker 2: great contrast to see all that stimulation that we think
Speaker 2: we need. Whether that actually improves our well being and
Speaker 2: happiness is really questionable.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I love the teaching that mindfulness underscores, which is,
Speaker 4: you know that we don't have to be anyone other
Speaker 4: than we are. We don't have to be anywhere else
Speaker 4: than where we are. That there is magic and mystery
Speaker 4: and wonder and beauty along with many other things right
Speaker 4: where we are who we are. You know that it
Speaker 4: isn't it's something special. Well, it's not a special state.
Speaker 4: You don't have to be extraordinary in some other way.
Speaker 4: It's effortless. It's actually removing the barriers that stand in
Speaker 4: the way of you connecting with your true deep nature.
Speaker 4: You connecting with this present moment as it's arising in
Speaker 4: a skillful way. And I think one of the reasons
Speaker 4: I love this book is that you share fifty two
Speaker 4: meditations that we can do in nature. It's so incredibly
Speaker 4: practical book of practice. You can hear about what mindfulness
Speaker 4: is and learn it intellectually, and that's important and the transformation,
Speaker 4: the real deep appreciation of what it is, comes in
Speaker 4: the practice of it. And your book is so directly
Speaker 4: useful in that way. You say in why I'm sharing
Speaker 4: this new work, you say, to offer a variety of simple,
Speaker 4: portable and accessible practices that anyone can do in the outdoors,
Speaker 4: regardless of background, religious affiliation, or meditation experience. So it's
Speaker 4: really a book a field guide that anyone can pick up.
Speaker 4: I thought we might just walk through a few of
Speaker 4: the meditations that I connected with based on some of
Speaker 4: my experiences. But actually, before I do that, I wanted
Speaker 4: to point out that you offer also an audio version
Speaker 4: that you read that you narrate, so you can actually
Speaker 4: listen to these meditations on audio and be guided, Yeah,
Speaker 4: which sounds kind of magical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And just an addendant to that, as you know,
Speaker 2: since you've been through my teacher training. I don't really
Speaker 2: believe in reading a meditation and script. When I'm doing
Speaker 2: the audiobook, I'm sort of reading the book, but I
Speaker 2: can't guide a meditation reading my book. Actually, the audio
Speaker 2: is a much more fleshed out, embellished version of each meditation,
Speaker 2: because you write in a certain way. When you guide,
Speaker 2: you just teach in a certain different way. So there's
Speaker 2: actually a lot more in the audiobook in terms of
Speaker 2: really feeling the fullness of meditation. The meditations are longer,
Speaker 2: I weave in different things. So for those who are interested,
Speaker 2: I highly recommend the audio version because also it means
Speaker 2: you can take it outside. You can sit by a
Speaker 2: tree or stream or park bench and then just listen
Speaker 2: to whatever meditation you want, whether it's a sitting meditation,
Speaker 2: or you can take it when you're meandering and walking.
Speaker 2: So you highly recommend the audio so you're not encumbered
Speaker 2: by the book and you're just listening and then you're off.
Speaker 4: It sounds like a lovely way to maybe create your
Speaker 4: own short retreat. You could do even twenty four hours
Speaker 4: of just using your guided meditations and nature. I mean,
Speaker 4: there you are one of the concepts that you point
Speaker 4: out that both Eric and I really connected with and
Speaker 4: have loved. Is this idea of nature teaching us what
Speaker 4: it means knowing and being known? Can we realize how
Speaker 4: experience in nature is always a two way process. You
Speaker 4: say there's a simultaneous dance of knowing and being known.
Speaker 4: Would you talk a bit more about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad that you plucked that out of
Speaker 2: the fifty two because that's one of my favorite practices,
Speaker 2: and it's also a new development for me and my teaching.
Speaker 2: I wrote my first nature book, Awake in the While,
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, and I wanted to write this
Speaker 2: new book because I've been doing this work, you know,
Speaker 2: it's twenty years since then. And one of the developments
Speaker 2: is understanding that we're always in relationship. We're always intimately
Speaker 2: connected to the earth, whether indoors or outdoors. But when
Speaker 2: we go outdoors into a park or a garden or
Speaker 2: into a woodland, we might say to each other, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm going for a walk in the woods. I'm going
Speaker 2: for walk in the park along the beach, And that's
Speaker 2: totally normal to say that. But what's really happening is
Speaker 2: when you go for a walk in the woods, you
Speaker 2: are entering a relationship, a relationship with those trees, with
Speaker 2: the BirdLife, the insect life, the animal life, with the flora,
Speaker 2: with the soil, and from any of the being's perspective
Speaker 2: in the forest that when they see you, hear you,
Speaker 2: smell you, sense you, you are part of the forest
Speaker 2: walking through the forest. You're just another animal in that moment,
Speaker 2: that's part of the forest ecosystem. But because we have
Speaker 2: this sort of egoic reference point, I'm going for a
Speaker 2: walk and to have an experience in the woods, and
Speaker 2: we forget we're actually entering relationship and many of the
Speaker 2: beings are having experiences of us. I mean, a mosquito
Speaker 2: may have a very direct experience of you by thinking
Speaker 2: your lunch. The birds will change their birds song as
Speaker 2: they see a two legged walking through their meadow, and
Speaker 2: a gopher snake will probably feeling our vibration, and certainly
Speaker 2: a coyote and a skunk and many other beings will
Speaker 2: be smelling our scent. So it's a lovely thing to
Speaker 2: be mindful of. Oh it's not just me having this thing,
Speaker 2: this experience, but it's a two way relationship. And then
Speaker 2: we can even refine that, like I live near redwoods,
Speaker 2: and you know, maybe you live near a park where
Speaker 2: there's some old trees. I do find that the older
Speaker 2: the tree, I feel more something. I feel present. I feel,
Speaker 2: you know, these one thousand and two thousand year old
Speaker 2: redwood trees that just you know, these old buddhas, you know,
Speaker 2: just standing forever. And when I sit with them, i
Speaker 2: walk with them or against them, I definitely feel like
Speaker 2: I'm knowing them, and in some way, some way that
Speaker 2: my mind can't figure out that I'm being known or
Speaker 2: felt or something that might be a projection. But you know,
Speaker 2: when you listen to indigenous teachers who live in the forest,
Speaker 2: they're very much aware that each of these beings, whether
Speaker 2: it's a stone being, a tree being, they have presence
Speaker 2: and sentience. And so it's a lovely thing to feel
Speaker 2: into that sense of knowing and being known.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lovely extension to that that I often
Speaker 1: like to think about is this idea that we tend
Speaker 1: to think we are seeing and hearing and tasting and
Speaker 1: smelling everything that's out there, like we are forming some
Speaker 1: accurate picture of what's out there, But we're only picking
Speaker 1: up a portion of what's out there. Other animals are
Speaker 1: picking up hearing things we can't hear, seeing things we
Speaker 1: can't see, smelling things we can't smell. There's just a
Speaker 1: mystery to that that I love to contemplate late and also,
Speaker 1: as you said, just that sense that it's not just
Speaker 1: me seeing the animals, you know, they are having a
Speaker 1: reaction to me. There's something about that that does make
Speaker 1: it feel much more relational to me. It's one of
Speaker 1: my favorite contemplations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I love that, Eric. That like when you
Speaker 2: see a bee and it flies by you, you know
Speaker 2: that tracking is the infrared, some kind of light that
Speaker 2: we can't see, you know, and smelling things that completely
Speaker 2: go past us. Yeah, other animals, you know, the pacidea
Speaker 2: and then ears are like radar dishes and that picking
Speaker 2: up a whole kaleidoscope of sound that we're oblivious to,
Speaker 2: just like when you go for a walk with your
Speaker 2: dog and it's like, oh, they're in a whole universe
Speaker 2: of smell and Yeah, it's lovely to realize awe view
Speaker 2: is one view of this huge panorama of experience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and how being indoors so much and connected so
Speaker 4: deepleated technology, it can be such a like you know,
Speaker 4: ecocentric but isolate experience. This idea of knowing and being known,
Speaker 4: for me is an instant, experiential reminder of my interconnectedness
Speaker 4: with all things and that I am not just in nature.
Speaker 4: I am nature. I'm a part of nature. I'm connected
Speaker 4: with nature. So what an antidote to isolation and loneliness
Speaker 4: to know you're right at home and infinitely connected the
Speaker 4: minute you sort of step out the door and the
Speaker 4: beauty is just to become aware of it, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's ways when that happens. I've had
Speaker 1: that experience deeply at times in nature of feeling like
Speaker 1: I'm not really alone at all. You know, I'm never alone,
Speaker 1: you know, when I'm walking out, when I'm in nature,
Speaker 1: but again, in front of it a screen, you are alone.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe the metal knows I'm here, but you
Speaker 1: know that even takes us into the world of anh
Speaker 1: which I.
Speaker 4: Know you're going to say that I don't even want
Speaker 4: to not ye.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that sense of never alone, and I think
Speaker 1: that also, you know, these practices and a lot of
Speaker 1: the practices you talk about are specific around using our
Speaker 1: senses as a way of connecting to now like we
Speaker 1: hear this insight, be here now, be present, But it's
Speaker 1: very difficult to do in the abstract. But using a
Speaker 1: sense is a way of becoming very present to what
Speaker 1: is right now. Can you say a little bit more
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think those two things we just talked
Speaker 2: about dovetails. So for example, it's true that you know,
Speaker 2: as much as we like our homes and like being
Speaker 2: in our homes, and you know, they provide all kinds
Speaker 2: of comforts and safety and whatnot, and that's all fine.
Speaker 2: They do isolate they separate us. I mean, the walls
Speaker 2: and windows and roofs are designed to keep the world out,
Speaker 2: which is fine. It has its practical purpose. But we
Speaker 2: tend to then feel isolated, and we feel separate, and
Speaker 2: we feel lonely, and we feel disconnected, and we feel alienated.
Speaker 2: And even something as simple as you know, opening the
Speaker 2: window in the morning and maybe hearing one or two
Speaker 2: birds singing suddenly say, oh, I'm not alone. There's a
Speaker 2: whole array of life life happening out there. That's beautiful,
Speaker 2: and we're connected because I'm hearing it, and I go
Speaker 2: outside and the birds might fly, or they might change
Speaker 2: their song, or they call, and so that's ahy, it's
Speaker 2: so important that we get outside. And then as you're
Speaker 2: pointing to, like when the bird is singing, we don't
Speaker 2: have to strain to hear the sound. It just brings
Speaker 2: us into the present. Or maybe you walk outside like
Speaker 2: I'm doing here because it's spring and in my neighborhod
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people planting, you know, jasmine flowers
Speaker 2: and this and that and the scotch broom and it's
Speaker 2: so fragrant. You know, I walk in the eucalyptus and
Speaker 2: there's this pungent sort of eucalyptus mental thing, or the
Speaker 2: wind blows. You know what I love about sitting in
Speaker 2: nature walking in nature is you know, we space out,
Speaker 2: whether it's a meditation or in a life, we space
Speaker 2: out and get lost in thought thousands of times a day.
Speaker 2: But you're outside and the wind slaps your face. You're
Speaker 2: suddenly back here or the stands behind the cloud and
Speaker 2: it comes out and you feel that warmth on your skins.
Speaker 2: Are oh, and it brings you here. And then you
Speaker 2: notice a fly brushes by your hair and you feel
Speaker 2: your hair, and then you know you're walking in the
Speaker 2: park and you walk from the dirt or the trail
Speaker 2: onto the grass and like, oh, it's really soft and
Speaker 2: spongy and moist. And because we have all these senses,
Speaker 2: we keep being brought into the present. And what's lovely
Speaker 2: about being brought into the present Mostly most of the time,
Speaker 2: not all the time. Most of the time, the present
Speaker 2: moment is infinitely more pleasant and forgiving than where we
Speaker 2: go with our mind. Our mind tends to go to stress, worry,
Speaker 2: plan angst, you know, and all kinds of catastrophes, worries,
Speaker 2: and mostly the present moment unless you're you know, in
Speaker 2: a really dangerous neighborhood or you know, you're in prison.
Speaker 2: For the most part, the present moment's okay. It might
Speaker 2: not be like perfect or what you want, but it's okay,
Speaker 2: you know. And when we are side for me, it's
Speaker 2: even more okay. It's not just okay, it's usually pleasant,
Speaker 2: you know. I'm all about what works and what makes
Speaker 2: it easy, and going outside brings us into the present.
Speaker 2: It's easy and opens our heart. That's also, you know,
Speaker 2: especially in this pandemic post pandemic world we're now in,
Speaker 2: you know, there's so much stress, there's so much anxiety,
Speaker 2: there's so much mental health challenges, there's so much sense
Speaker 2: of not enough time. And then when you go outside,
Speaker 2: if you sit in your garden or you're gardening, or
Speaker 2: you're watering your plants on the deck, which I do.
Speaker 2: I got mostly pots here where I live, and there's
Speaker 2: something just very soothing, just very relaxing, even just watering
Speaker 2: a plant, you know, just deadheading a plant or pruning
Speaker 2: like I just it's so satisfying, you know, just five
Speaker 2: minutes I will go out between sessions, you know, walk
Speaker 2: around and pull out some dead weeds, and it just
Speaker 2: present sensory here. And we need more of that, you know,
Speaker 2: more I'm away from screens, more time, not stuck in
Speaker 2: our small rooms. Yeah, and connecting with this natural presence.
Speaker 4: There's a couple of different directions I could go here
Speaker 4: based on what you said. One is just to point
Speaker 4: out what I think is also an important point, which
Speaker 4: is that you know, it's not to make our inside
Speaker 4: lives bad, you know, technological lives bad, and the outdoor
Speaker 4: world is good.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: But I think for me my mindfulness practice and then
Speaker 4: practicing mindfulness outdoors and nature, the value of it. If
Speaker 4: mindfulness is you know, sort of always in service to
Speaker 4: well being, being present and well being. We are counterbalancing.
Speaker 4: You know, the scale has been incredibly tipped towards bifurcated
Speaker 4: attention and you know, isolation, indoors and all of these
Speaker 4: things that when taken to extreme, do not support well being.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of suffering there, you know, and a
Speaker 4: lot of missing out on the beauty and the gifts.
Speaker 4: But the practice of mindfulness every day or regularly and
Speaker 4: then be outside of nature practicing mindfulness, it's such a
Speaker 4: wonderful counterbalance. So we're correcting for the imbalance that exists
Speaker 4: so that we can live with more ease through our days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. I do not want to give the
Speaker 2: impression of being indoors as bad. It's fine. I spend
Speaker 2: most of my time indoors, just like everybody, you know.
Speaker 2: And I love my home and I love you know,
Speaker 2: good Netflix series. And you know, we're doing this digitally
Speaker 2: and it's great. You know, I get to connect with
Speaker 2: people and even for myself. You know, I'm a nature writer,
Speaker 2: nature meditation, nature nature lover, and I still have to
Speaker 2: remind myself, Like this morning, I went to the gym.
Speaker 2: I'm not really a gym person, but you know, it's
Speaker 2: good to train your body, strengthen your body, especially as
Speaker 2: we get older. And I had to thought myself, how
Speaker 2: why didn't I go for a bike ride? It was
Speaker 2: this beautiful still morning, and you know, usually we have
Speaker 2: to push ourselves through a little discomfort. You know, our
Speaker 2: homes are cozy, you know when we look out the window,
Speaker 2: and often it's like, you know, it's cloudy, it's grey,
Speaker 2: maybe it's drizzly or foggy where I am. But I know,
Speaker 2: for myself, I know one hundred percent every time I
Speaker 2: go outside, and this is one hundred percent, I feel better.
Speaker 2: I feel more energy, I feel happier, I feel more connected.
Speaker 2: And maybe not the whole time. Maybe it's cold, windy day,
Speaker 2: and you know, I get wet, and you know there's
Speaker 2: some unpleasant parts of that, but I always feel brighter,
Speaker 2: more spacious. And it could be, as I say, just
Speaker 2: going into my yard which is mostly concrete and driveway
Speaker 2: and not that actually pretty really, and just going to
Speaker 2: a mailbox which takes like twenty steps, and I look around, Oh,
Speaker 2: blue sky. Oh and there's my neighbor. Oh and there's
Speaker 2: the bird sitting on the tree building its nest. And
Speaker 2: just that is like it's very simple, and so we
Speaker 2: just have to encourage ourselves. You know, for a lot
Speaker 2: of us, it's going to be taking a walk around
Speaker 2: our neighborhood and as I did when I was in London,
Speaker 2: noticing the gardens, noticing trees, notice looking up lownicing the sky,
Speaker 2: noticing what season we're in, and it's just very healthy.
Speaker 2: You know, we're social species, and you know that. I
Speaker 2: think the data now the average Americans spends ninety five
Speaker 2: percent of their time indoors, and that's not how we've
Speaker 2: lived evolutionary. We lived more relationally. Like even when I
Speaker 2: walk down to the local shop and I get some milk,
Speaker 2: just that is sort of uplift. It's a break from screen,
Speaker 2: live and it's like these simple things they really make
Speaker 2: a difference.
Speaker 4: We were just in Atlanta. Is this what you're going
Speaker 4: to say?
Speaker 1: I was going to say. We were just in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: and we were staying in a part of Atlanta we're
Speaker 1: not normally in. But it was very walkable. There was
Speaker 1: a park and a trail right nearby, and.
Speaker 4: And we could walk to like every store we might need.
Speaker 1: I just loved it, but you're right. I had to
Speaker 1: keep reminding myself, like, yes, you could drive the car
Speaker 1: and save five minutes, but you could also just walk.
Speaker 1: And every time I did walk, like you said, I
Speaker 1: was always glad I did, it was always glad. Takes
Speaker 1: a little bit more effort, but it is one of
Speaker 1: those things, like a lot of things in life, we
Speaker 1: do sometimes need that little extra push from ourselves to
Speaker 1: get out of our comfort and into what's best for us.
Speaker 2: And going back to the book for a second, I
Speaker 2: don't know how many, but you know the fifty two practices,
Speaker 2: there's at least ten fifteen of them involve walking, walking, meandering, strolling,
Speaker 2: and so a lot of these practices, it's not like
Speaker 2: you need to dedicate an extra amount of time out
Speaker 2: Now I've got to do my major meditation practice as
Speaker 2: well as my yoga, and whether you know no, you
Speaker 2: can do it while you're walking down as you say,
Speaker 2: to go to the store, or walking in your dog
Speaker 2: and bringing mindfulness to that. So there's ways that we
Speaker 2: can integrate being aware when we're outside and it doesn't
Speaker 2: take any extra time. It's really the intention and the
Speaker 2: quality of a tension that we bring. You know, do
Speaker 2: we take that ten minute walk to the store through
Speaker 2: our neighborhood and we're just lost in worry or planning,
Speaker 2: or can we let that go and just be in
Speaker 2: our senses and being in the present moment and with appreciation,
Speaker 2: or with curiosity, or with wonder. And it's such a
Speaker 2: whole hearted, uplifting experience.
Speaker 1: Before I was able to leave my job and do
Speaker 1: this full time, I worked in an office or a
Speaker 1: series of offices or different places, and I just trained
Speaker 1: myself that when I walked from my car to the
Speaker 1: office door and from the office door to my car,
Speaker 1: I was just going to be present to my senses.
Speaker 1: You know, what can I see? What can I hear?
Speaker 1: What can I feel in my body? And just that
Speaker 1: little practice done every day, those two times a day,
Speaker 1: really developed a quality of attention and ability to be
Speaker 1: present to what was around. So I love this idea,
Speaker 1: like we don't necessarily have to add something else to
Speaker 1: our day. We can take something we're already doing, but
Speaker 1: do it in a way with a slight change of
Speaker 1: orientation and focus that's really beneficial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, there's often a view that we need to
Speaker 2: add something. No, we just shift how we're doing what
Speaker 2: we're doing with intention.
Speaker 4: So there's one other bit of wisdom that nature can
Speaker 4: really help us in our connection too, and that really
Speaker 4: supports our well being. And I was hoping we can
Speaker 4: explore that for a moment, which is how nature is
Speaker 4: a masterful teacher of the truth of change, and how
Speaker 4: we can understand transience in an experiential way in nature
Speaker 4: and then also subsequently reflect on it for ourselves. You
Speaker 4: say that nothing stays the same in nature, right, Similarly,
Speaker 4: we can include the awareness of our bodies changing landscape
Speaker 4: that we can notice how sensations, No sensations are forever right,
Speaker 4: they're changing constantly, they're intensifying, they're ceasing. So I just
Speaker 4: hope we can maybe spend a moment exploring how this
Speaker 4: shows up in nature and how that might awaken something
Speaker 4: within ourselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a great theme. You know, I'm just
Speaker 2: looking at this oak tree outside my house. I was
Speaker 2: on the roof the other day, and you know, it's
Speaker 2: a beautiful flooringshing oak tree, but there's limbs that are dying,
Speaker 2: there's leaves that are dead. The deck is basically scattered
Speaker 2: with deadly and acorns and branches. And you can't go
Speaker 2: anywhere in nature, whether it's your garden or even looking
Speaker 2: at it. One plant or tree that doesn't show signs
Speaker 2: of change, just like we're in springtime and we're coming
Speaker 2: out of the sort of fallow winter and the dead
Speaker 2: ground and all the dead grasses and plants. And then
Speaker 2: suddenly I was walking the woods yesterday and there's all
Speaker 2: these cattails like asparagus poking up through the ground, and
Speaker 2: just seeing that sense of part of the forest is
Speaker 2: decaying still from the winter, and half of it's now
Speaker 2: we're growing with saplings and new buds and bright green leaves.
Speaker 2: And the weather here, we've had one day storms and
Speaker 2: then next day sun and the next day howling wind
Speaker 2: and beautiful, beautiful transience change e femorality dynamism where no
Speaker 2: two moments are the same. The light changes, the wind changes,
Speaker 2: the leaves change, the bird song, the breeze, the smell,
Speaker 2: like it's just this constant dance. Oh you go to
Speaker 2: the ocean. I teach a lot by the ocean, and
Speaker 2: just the restlessness of the waves and the surface and
Speaker 2: the movement and the wind and the surf. And there's
Speaker 2: something again, the contrast not making our houses bad, but
Speaker 2: we build our houses in defense against change, against weather, storms, rain,
Speaker 2: you know, bugs, and so we keep all that out,
Speaker 2: so it creates a sense of relative stability. Right, There's
Speaker 2: not much changes in our house, which is fine, but
Speaker 2: it's sort of deadening to the senses and our brain.
Speaker 2: As I was chatting with a couple of neuroscientists yesterday
Speaker 2: a couple of days ago, our brain is wired for novelty,
Speaker 2: novelty and change in stimulation. And I was really reflecting,
Speaker 2: as I've been hiking the last few days, nature is
Speaker 2: nothing but novelty. Like even if you walk the same hike,
Speaker 2: which I do often one hundred times every time you
Speaker 2: do that hike, there's so much diversity and change. It's
Speaker 2: different light, different weather, different temperature, different shade, different birds
Speaker 2: and animals, and the tree's fallen down and things grown
Speaker 2: up here, and it just it's so stimulating and such
Speaker 2: a nice contrast to the stillness. And I could say
Speaker 2: sometimes the deadness of our built landscapes where we come
Speaker 2: into connection with reality. Reality is changing. It's always changing.
Speaker 2: We're changing our thoughts, feelings, bodies, moods, and so is nature.
Speaker 2: And so it's a massive mirror of helping us realize, oh,
Speaker 2: life is changed, like life is dynamic, fluid, ephemeral, fleeting moving,
Speaker 2: and so am I my mind, my body, my relationships,
Speaker 2: my feelings, my everything, And so it normalizes it. You know,
Speaker 2: we try to build so much against change. We try
Speaker 2: to stop our body aging, or try to you know,
Speaker 2: we grab onto a pleasant feeling we don't want that
Speaker 2: to change, or we know, we grow an orchid, like,
Speaker 2: don't die even though you're you're flowering for like six months.
Speaker 2: When it dies, I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, no, don't die.
Speaker 2: But well, you know, nature teaches us everything is beautiful,
Speaker 2: and it comes and it goes, and it passes, and
Speaker 2: it wanes and it flowers and it dies and metamorphosizes
Speaker 2: and reflowers again, and it just helps us land that
Speaker 2: truth of change, which means that when things change in
Speaker 2: our lives, whether it's our body, our health, our relationships,
Speaker 2: our money, status, or work, that there's a little more
Speaker 2: like our rank. Of course it's changing because life changes.
Speaker 2: Everything changes can hold under anything.
Speaker 4: Yes, And isn't that a beautiful thing to remember when
Speaker 4: for me, in moments when I feel the most you know,
Speaker 4: sad or just unpleasant in my body, or things are difficult,
Speaker 4: the first thought, invariably my mind as well, this is
Speaker 4: how it's always going to be right. I don't know
Speaker 4: why I think that, but every single time I think
Speaker 4: that's true, every single time, I'm aware that that's my thought.
Speaker 4: And so in those moments, connecting to the absolute law
Speaker 4: of change in nature and therefore it's true for me too,
Speaker 4: is such a wonderful gift.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great reminder. It's true. We think, whether
Speaker 2: it's something pleasant to go, oh it's going to be
Speaker 2: like this forever, or something's hurting, Oh, it's like guess forever.
Speaker 2: It's so funny that that's our first thought. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it's so not true of anything. Yes, and yet that's
Speaker 2: where we go. And then, as you say, the more
Speaker 2: we've studied change in life, the more we go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's bad and it's going to shift.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think that's a great place for us
Speaker 1: to wrap up. You know. In the beginning, Mark you
Speaker 1: said that everything we do is in service to wisdom,
Speaker 1: you know, and I love that idea. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a really great orientation. And I think understanding this transience
Speaker 1: that we're talking about, this impermanence, is one of the
Speaker 1: core aspects of becoming more wise, and nature is a
Speaker 1: great way to do it. So thank you so much
Speaker 1: for taking the time to come on. It's always a
Speaker 1: pleasure to talk with you, and it's inspired me to
Speaker 1: get outdoors more.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, thank you, Mark, Yeah, thank you. It's always
Speaker 2: a delight to talk to you both, and happy to
Speaker 2: share my love and passion of nature and mindfulness. And
Speaker 2: hope your listeners and enjoyed it. And thanks again.
Speaker 1: And we'll have links in the show notes where people
Speaker 1: can find your work, your training's, your book, all that
Speaker 1: good stuff. So thank you Mark.
Speaker 3: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
Speaker 3: consider making a monthly donation to support the One You
Speaker 3: Feed podcast. When you join our membership community. With this
Speaker 3: monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits.
Speaker 3: It's our way of saying thank you for your support now.
Speaker 3: We are so grateful for the members of our community.
Speaker 3: We wouldn't be able to do what we do without
Speaker 3: their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted.
Speaker 3: To learn more, make a donation at any level and
Speaker 3: become a member of the One You Feed community, go
Speaker 3: to oneufeed dot net slash joint. The One You Feed
Speaker 3: Podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting
Speaker 3: the show.