1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,119 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 2: It has been such a pleasure, what an honor. I 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: never would have dreamed that we would have someone would 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 2: allow us inside this house. 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 3: Thank you. 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: I love his bricks out there. Did you see he's 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: going to use the Mountain View Plantation mansion isn't as 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: glorious as it once was when the Clements lived here 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: more than one hundred and fifty years ago. Some of 10 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: the homes bricks, once a deep red, are faded and chipped, 11 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: though its four columns are still pretty impressive. The owner 12 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: is hoping to renovate it to its previous dignified state, 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: which would be wonderful because it is a beautiful home. 14 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: He leads Desmond Kendrick and Wayne Witcher and me inside 15 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: the parlor, which is now a dining room. The owner 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: points out a slew of divots in the wall across 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: from a set of windows. He says, they are bullet 18 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: holes from more than one hundred years ago. 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 4: That is amazing. 20 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: So somebody who's probably walking through here a sharpshooter shot 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 2: through one of those winders who they were shooting. They had, 22 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: so this is the fireplace that was used in eighteen twelve, 23 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: eighteen thirteen. This fireplace right here, so Victoria came through here, 24 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 2: James Clement came through here. 25 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 5: And this gives me chie It was no my great 26 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 5: great granddad played out. 27 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 6: Because this. 28 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: Type of visit to James Clement's family home is extraordinary 29 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: For a historian and a writer like me. I'm always 30 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: hoping for some physical evidence of someone's past life, like 31 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: a pair of eyeglasses or a self portrait, so you 32 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: can imagine what it's like for me to be inside 33 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: the Clement family home. I wasn't so lucky with the Witchers. 34 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: Most of their old land was sold off generations ago, 35 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: and all of the homes are gone, and of course 36 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: Washington Dickinson's Store has gone too. But back in February 37 00:01:54,960 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: of eighteen sixty, Dickinson's store was the site of a massacre. 38 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: Dozens of people crowded into the store, which had been 39 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: converted into a makeshift courtroom for the second set of 40 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: depositions in the divorce case of Victoria Clement against James Clement. 41 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: Witnesses were there to offer their observations about the couple's 42 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: turbulent marriage five months earlier. The initial depositions had ended 43 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: in gunfire, when the tensions between James Clement and Buck 44 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: Gilbert hit a new high. James was infuriated as Buck 45 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: described his friendship with Victoria Clement as only platonic, and 46 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: the following day Buck nursed only superficial wounds, but James 47 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: Clement and his brother Johnston had more serious injuries. They 48 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: had wounds dire enough to postpone the divorce proceedings for months, 49 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: and then they actually moved the meeting closer to the 50 00:02:53,520 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: Witchers and the Clements. During that time, both families took 51 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: target practice, which seemed like a not so veiled threat. 52 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: Both of their communities felt the tension, and now that 53 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: the two families were finally meeting again, everyone hoped that 54 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: the Witchers and the Clements would conclude this divorce peacefully. 55 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: Wishful thinking. The night before the depositions, James Clement issued 56 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: a series of pleas and threats to various people who 57 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: had arrived. His brother Ralph had already interviewed witnesses from 58 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: each side of the case, and now several men had 59 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: gathered outside of Dickinson's store that night, just casually talking. 60 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: James eyed each person from a distance before walking along 61 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: the porch toward a friend of the Witchers. James asked 62 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: Silas w Evans if he thought James had been guilty 63 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: of all of the terrible things he was accused of. 64 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: James also wondered if Silas thought that the Witchers would 65 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: hurt him because of Victoria's accusations. Silas answered that he 66 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 1: wasn't sure, but if James were guilty that the Witchers 67 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: ought to break his neck. Silas could hear shots in 68 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: the distance. Someone was once again taking target practice. Silas 69 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: called out to his friend, James Rice, and firmly suggested 70 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: that they both leave immediately. As Silas walked away, James 71 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: called out to him and asked him to join him 72 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: and his brothers for some shooting. Silas told James that 73 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: he was going home, and as he began to walk 74 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: off into the night, James called after him, don't go. 75 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: The fun hasn't commenced yet. Silas replied that he wasn't 76 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: interested in any type of fun that James offered, particularly 77 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: involving guns. James told him, don't be afraid, you won't 78 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: be hurt. James Clement paced the porch and kept repeating 79 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: don't leave. The fun hasn't commenced yet. It seemed very menacing. 80 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 1: Silas turned and snidely remarked, I've heard that the Clements 81 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: are bad marksmen. Anyway, you shoot too low. James reminded 82 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: him coldly that he had managed to hit Buck Gilbert, 83 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: but by that time Silas Evans and James Rice had 84 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: disappeared into the darkness. Everyone at Dickinson's could see that 85 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 1: James was tense that Friday night. He snapped at everyone, 86 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: even family members. He couldn't stand up for very long 87 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: because his wounds were still so painful. James's friend Jack 88 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: Law stepped on to Dickinson's porch amid the other men. 89 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: James seemed panicked, even more than before Vincent Oliver Witcher 90 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: had spooked James all of the Witchers did. Jack asked 91 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: James to come with him, and they walked away from 92 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: the crowd and down dirt road. James put his arm 93 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: around Jack as they trudged down the road, going nowhere 94 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: in particular. James told his friend that he feared there 95 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: would be another shootout just like the one that happened 96 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: last September and Sandy Level. Why do you make such 97 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: remark as this, Jack wondered. They're preparing for something, replied James, Jack, 98 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: they are going to kill me. Jack didn't believe it, 99 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: but James told him that he saw a man hand 100 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: a witcher two pistols. Jack reply to James, Jim, this 101 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: is all humbuggery, and you be cool and deliberate and 102 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: have no fighting. James replied, Jack, you have always given 103 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: me good advice, and I will take it as I 104 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: have always done, and I will not be the aggressor 105 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: but the defender. And if I am shot at, I'll 106 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: be damned if I don't shoot the man that shoots 107 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: at me. Jack said, if all of them will act 108 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: the way that you have promised to act, there will 109 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 1: be no fighting. James nodded, and the men parted ways 110 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: into the night, but both left with their own worries 111 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: about the next day. Sorting out fact from fiction in 112 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: child custody battles is difficult for judges today. They listen 113 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: to both sides and to both sides witnesses, and then 114 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: they have to make a decision. Judge dimple Mahaltra says 115 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: that judges have to learn about the nuances of these stories. 116 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: There are always two sides. 117 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 4: You know, I look at each case individually, obviously, and 118 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 4: that's my job. 119 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: But there are red flags. 120 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 4: There are things that I see in cases that definitely 121 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 4: let me know what the dynamic is in that relationship. 122 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 4: They give me context. Luckily, we have law enforcement that 123 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 4: has victim services that are educated in this field. They 124 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 4: understand the dynamics, they know what to look for, they 125 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 4: know the questions to ask. 126 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: Judge Maholtra says that she leans on law enforcement to 127 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: give her information and then she uses that information to 128 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: come to her own conclusion. 129 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 4: So when they respond to a scene, they're asking things 130 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 4: about the history. So if there's a history of violence 131 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 4: in the relationship, even if it's unreported, that's significant to me. 132 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 4: If there's a history of strangulation, that's very significant because 133 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 4: that increases that risk of lethality in that case tenfold. 134 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 4: If there are weapons in the home, they're just a 135 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 4: number of red flags. If there have been threats in 136 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 4: the past, if they're if the person has expressed that 137 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 4: they've been isolated from their friends and family, I do 138 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 4: understand well the dynamics. 139 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: George Sampson was a friend of James Clement. He looked 140 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,719 Speaker 1: over at Sherwood Shelton, who was James's brother's best employee. 141 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: Sherwood had testified months earlier in Sandy Level about the 142 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: night that Victoria rant to his house fleeing from James. 143 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: Sherwood had said in his deposition that James arrived after 144 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: Victoria did, and he demanded to see her. Sherwood refused, 145 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: and James threatened his life before leaving. It was all 146 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: a lie, Sherwood told George Sampson. My deposition wasn't right. 147 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: Sherwood told George that the Witchers had taken him outside 148 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: before he was supposed to be a witness. He said 149 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: that they threatened him and pressured him to change his 150 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: testimony to make James seem more threatening toward him. That night, 151 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: Sherwood was quiet and then whispered to George. They looked 152 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: at me very cross at times, and held their hands 153 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: on their revolvers. He told George that he was sure 154 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: that the Witchers would kill him. I did not do 155 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: mister Clement justice on that occasion because I was afraid 156 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: of Vincent Witcher, said Sherwood sadly. But as the sun 157 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: rose and witnesses gathered on the porch, there was optimism. 158 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: James told people that perhaps the Witchers would behave He 159 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: had thought that they might try to fight the day before, 160 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: but they hadn't. Perhaps that meant that this would be 161 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: a better day, but it wouldn't be. Events that Saturday 162 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: ran long, and after dinner, Vincent Oliver Witcher and his 163 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: opposing counsel, Ralph Clement, sat opposite each other on either 164 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: side of the large fireplace inside the main room of 165 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: Dickinson's store. A friend of the Clements, Elizabeth Bennett, sat 166 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: near the fireplace and started to give her deposition before 167 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: the judges and the two families. Bennett's brother in law 168 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: worked for Ralph and they lived on his land. She 169 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: had even ridden one of Ralph's horses to Dickinson's to 170 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: give her deposition. She was almost like a member of 171 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: the Clement family, and the Witcher's had been very suspicious 172 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: of her. What would she say about James and Victoria's relationship. 173 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver Witcher asked for a dismissal until Monday, and 174 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: then he objected to Bennett as a witnesses. Witcher demanded 175 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: that Bennett be watched by an independent party. Ralph jumped 176 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: up from his seat at his desk and replied that 177 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: she wouldn't be influenced over the weekend by anyone, including 178 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: the Clements. In fact, Ralph would be happy to place 179 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: her in jail until the depositions could resume on Monday, 180 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: just to appease the Witcher's That's how important Elizabeth Bennett was. 181 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: Surely she couldn't have been happy about that. Wayne Witcher 182 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: says that Vincent Oliver was concerned that Ralph Clements would 183 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: try to pressure the witness into lying on the stand 184 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: if he had a chance to talk with her alone 185 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: over the weekend. 186 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: Ralph Clement, who was the attorney of James Clement at 187 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: that point, said, whoever said that told a damned lie. 188 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 2: Then Captain Witcher rose from his chair, put his hand 189 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 2: in his bosom, and drew out a five shooter. 190 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: Ralph Clement was acting as his brother's attorney, and even 191 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: though he had been arguing with Vincent Oliver Witcher over 192 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: this witness, Ralph seemed caught off guard by Vince sent 193 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: Oliver's reaction to being called a liar. Vincent Oliver took 194 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: a few steps back as another Witcher raced toward Ralph Clement. 195 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: Ralph sprang up from his seat at the writing desk. 196 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: Now Vincent Oliver's grandson, Addison Witcher, grabbed Ralph Clement from behind. 197 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: And then Addison Witcher, Vincent's grandson, grabbed Ralph Clement and 198 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: yelled at his grandpa, Captain Witcher, don't shoot me, shoot 199 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: the damn rascal. 200 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: Because he was afraid his grandfather was not a good shot. 201 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: I mean, think about it. You grabbed this guy, and 202 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: your grandpa is pointing the pistol, and apparently maybe he 203 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: thought he was going to shoot high or shoot left 204 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: and was going to shoot Addison, so he said, shoot him, 205 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 2: not me. 206 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: Captain Vincent Oliver. Witcher did shoot Ralph multiple times. The 207 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: bullets whizzed over Elizabeth Bennett's head as she ducked down 208 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: and slid under the writing desk where Ralph Clement had 209 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: been sitting. Ralph grunted and blood splattered. He yelled to 210 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: anyone around him, I am a dead man. That killed 211 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: me for nothing. Addison Witcher screamed at his grandfather shoot him, 212 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: God damn him, shoot him. Vincent Oliver fired more shots. 213 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: Ralph's body jerked and went limp in Addison Witcher's arms 214 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: when Addison determined that Ralph was dead. He let go 215 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: of him before Ralph fell to the ground, slumping over 216 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: the legs of the writing desk. But Ralph wasn't dead. 217 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: He was moaning and in tremendous pain. Ralph lay very 218 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: close to Elizabeth Bennett, who was terrified she had seen 219 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: the whole thing, though she was really only able to 220 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: see Addison witcher from the waist down as she hid nearby. 221 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: Amid the chaos of the gunfire and the screaming and 222 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: the smoke, James Clement spotted Vincent Oliver across the room, 223 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: the man who had brought so much grief to his life. 224 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: At least that's what James had always thought. James reached 225 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: for his revolver in his pocket, aimed, and felt a 226 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: pain in his arm. Vincent Oliver's son in law had 227 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: been sitting near by. He used his cane to hit 228 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: James right as he fired. The bullet whizzed by Vincent Oliver, 229 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: just missing him. His son in law had saved his life. 230 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver returned fire, hitting James Clement in the head 231 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: and the heart, killing him instantly. Someone presumably a Witcher, 232 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: slit James's throat, and he fell where he stood as 233 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: blood spilled onto the wood boards of the floor. Vincent 234 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: Oliver's son in law had also hit him over the 235 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: head with his cane before running out the door. Another 236 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: grandson of Vincent Oliver was severely wounded in the shoulder. 237 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: As people rushed out of the room, others rushed inside 238 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: the room, hoping to see who had been shot. Everything 239 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: was difficult to see as black smoke quickly filled the 240 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: large counting room in the store. This was normally the 241 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: place where Washington Dickinson would count his currency for the day. 242 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: A witness spotted James Clement lying on the ground. He 243 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: was clearly dead. The witness saw a witcher fire a 244 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: pistol at James's body. The man didn't say which witcher, 245 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: but it was likely Vincent Oliver. Ralph Clement was wailing 246 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: underneath the writing desk. Three men rushed over, including a 247 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: brother in law who was also an army colonel. They 248 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: lifted Ralph onto the bed where James Clement had laid 249 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: during the depositions. Colonel Madison Carter was married to Ralph's sister. 250 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: He searched Ralph's body for fatal wounds. There were six 251 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: bullet holes in his body, including one near his spine. 252 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: Ralph was complaining. He said he had no intention of 253 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: using his weapon. He wondered why all of this was 254 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: happening to his family. It was incredible that he was 255 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: even still alive at this point. Finally, the shooting had 256 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: stopped and the smoke started to clear. And as it did, 257 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: Ralph and James's brother, Johnston Clement spotted Victoria's brother. Johnston 258 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: reached into his breast pocket, pulled out a gun and 259 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: fired at John Archer Smith. The shot hit him in 260 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: the shoulder. John Archer grabbed his shoulder with one hand 261 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: and with the other he gripped a short bowie knife. 262 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: He rushed toward Johnston Clement and thrust the knife into 263 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: his stomach, ripping open his bowels. He stabbed Johnson in 264 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: the mouth, right at his whiskers. The knife hit his 265 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: right jaw and then his ribs, his collarbone, and his breast. 266 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: Johnston wailed and collapsed at John Archer's feet. He was 267 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: literally gutted. And then Victoria's brother pulled out a pistol 268 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: and fired three or four times, one shot hitting Johnston 269 00:16:44,720 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: in the eye. Johnston Clement was now dead. As the 270 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: scene calmed, the Witchers began to leave the counting room. 271 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: Justice of the Piece, Robert Mitchell, had been overseeing the depositions. 272 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: He ordered the men on the porch to hold the Witchers, 273 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: don't let them leave. Captain Vincent Oliver. Witchers swung around 274 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: and said no need. He calmly stayed on the porch. 275 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: Inside the counting room, Ralph Clement continued to weep. He 276 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: requested a magistrate. He wanted to issue a dying declaration 277 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: in writing, as a nearby witness scribbled on paper. Ralph said, slowly. 278 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: I never attempted to draw an arm. Addison Witcher catched 279 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: me and held me around the waist in arms and 280 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: told them to come and shoot me, a damned rascal. 281 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: I was shot several times while in that fix, and 282 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: he held me until I fell. A number of pistols 283 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: were fired at me. Then Ralph stayed on the bed, 284 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: bleeding from all over, for about two hours before he 285 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: finally died. And that was it. There were no more deaths. 286 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: The Witchers and the Clements fired dozens of shots that evening, 287 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: and yet the three men who lay dead inside Dickinson's 288 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: store were all Clements. Some of the Witchers were injured, 289 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: but none fatally. Wayne Wicher read a short synopsis from 290 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: an eighteen sixty printing in a local paper. 291 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: The bodies of the three brothers were riddled with bullets 292 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: and horribly gashed with knives. In fact, William Clement, also 293 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: known as Johnston Clement, was disemboweled. James Clement, this is 294 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: Victoria's husband, had his throat slipped from air to airon 295 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 2: Ralph Clement, the attorney for James Clement. He lived for 296 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: nearly three hours despite his wounds after he had been shot. 297 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: That must have been an incredibly painful death for Ralph Clement, 298 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: the family attorney and the most ambitious of the brothers. 299 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: But all three brothers died horrible deaths in the middle 300 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: of a chaotic, highly charged legal argument. 301 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: It was a terrible thing. They were shot and cut up. 302 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: And there's different different perspectives about what happened. Some reports 303 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 2: say that it was the Witches that were the aggressors, 304 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: but then there are other reports which say that it 305 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 2: was the Clements who were the aggressors. 306 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: I will say that I've read through almost two hundred 307 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: pages of depositions in testimony and all of the witnesses 308 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: unanimously say that the Witchers instigated the violence. They certainly 309 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: escaped with less trauma, and all of this seemingly over 310 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: the custody of little Lilia Maud. But of course it 311 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: was more than just that there might have been infidelity. 312 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: There definitely seemed to be abuse and manipulation. Jane Borden 313 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: is Lilia Maud's great great granddaughter. She wondered aloud about 314 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: something that I've often thought about. 315 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 7: But because if it had been brewing for years, why 316 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 7: would they have married her to him? I mean, I'm 317 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 7: just assuming she didn't have full agency in her marriage choice. 318 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: What strange is the rumor that she had been engaged 319 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: to Samuel Berger shortly before she married James. So maybe 320 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: there was some sort of deal between the Clements and 321 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: the Witchers to unite the families. They just seemed like 322 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: a really, really bad match from the start. 323 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 8: It could have been anything. 324 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: Victoria claimed that James had been the abuser in their relationship, 325 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: yet her family clearly had the upper hand during the 326 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: massacre that happened inside Dickinson's store. Being victorious seemed to 327 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 1: be in the Witcher blood. The witcher men were strong 328 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: and aggressive and trained in battle. A few years later, 329 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 1: Addison Witcher led a Confederate cavalry of almost five hundred 330 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: men to Gettysburg in the Civil War. Addison would become 331 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: a legend for his brutality during the war. Wayne Witcher 332 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: reminds me that this is the same Addison Witcher who 333 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: held Ralph Clement while his grandfather shot and killed the attorney. 334 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: This is Vincent Addison Witcher, who has quite a reputation 335 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 2: in the Civil War. Also very outrageous individual. 336 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: Actually, I asked Ran Witcher about Addison's reputation in their family, 337 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: because Addison seemed even more powerful than his grandfather of 338 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver Addison Richard was your great grandfather, great grandfather 339 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: A big man. 340 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a big man. 341 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was physically a big man. 342 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 2: I mean he was No, he was a powerful quess. 343 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: All of this information really seems to sad in. Vicky Borden. 344 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: She's heard about this story her whole life. Liliah Maud 345 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: was her great grandmother, and Vicky never met her, but 346 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: she was very important to Vicky's father and of course 347 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: her own grandparents. They had talked about this for years. 348 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: She and her two daughters have furniture and paintings and 349 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: portraits of Victoria and Lilia Maud around their homes. But 350 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: Vicky had never read all of the details until I 351 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: sent her the legal documents. It's hard to read some 352 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: of the stories, particularly about James's abuse of enslaved people 353 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: on his property. Even though Lillia Maud was half Clement 354 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: and half Witcher Smith, she never blamed either family, and 355 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: Lilia Maud passed that belief down to her children and 356 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: her grandchildren, which was probably the kind thing to do. 357 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 9: I never heard my grandmother or my father ever a 358 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 9: sign blame to either side of the family. I never 359 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 9: heard either one of them do that ever. And as 360 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 9: I said, the Clement family lived in Danville where I 361 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 9: grew up, and they were friends of my parents, and 362 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 9: their daughter was a close friend of my sisters, and 363 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 9: I dated their son for a while off and on, 364 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 9: and we were good friends. 365 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: Vicky jokes about a time when she watched a Witcher 366 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: and a Clement meet at a get together. 367 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 9: Never was there any mention of it, except one time, 368 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 9: as I told you, they kind of looked at each 369 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 9: other at a party and said, oh dear, But it 370 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 9: didn't go any further after that, and my father never 371 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 9: blamed anybody, and my grandmother never blamed anybody. It was 372 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 9: a tragedy and they didn't blame anybody for it. They 373 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 9: saw that it was just something that blew up. 374 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: Jane Borden says that her mother, VICKI might not have 375 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: blamed either family, but she does seem to connect with 376 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: one side more than the other. 377 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 7: We come, of course, from both sides because we're the 378 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 7: descendants of their child. But my mother always was a witcher, 379 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 7: associated herself. 380 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: With the Witchers. 381 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 7: And I think it's probably just because she's named Victoria, 382 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 7: but that doesn't make sense. 383 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 8: We're both we're witches and Clement. 384 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 7: And because she associates so strongly with the Witchers, I 385 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 7: think there was this narrative of them being the ones 386 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 7: in the right, and I don't really think anyone was 387 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 7: in the right, and it seems like everybody was unsavory, 388 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 7: and I don't know, I just find that interesting and 389 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 7: I asked her. 390 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 8: I was like, but mom, you're both they're also a Clement. 391 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: Here's what's difficult for me. It's not hard to identify 392 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: the villains in seasons one and two of tenfold More Wicket. 393 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff was a genius, and he was also a 394 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: multiple murderer. Burke and Hair were greedy, craven serial killers. 395 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: But Season three was tougher for me because Howard Pearson's 396 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: motives for killing his parents were complicated. And now in 397 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: this story, I'm not really sure who the villains are. 398 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: James Clement was an abusive man, but the Witchers seemed 399 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: to be particularly vicious when they killed the three Clement men. 400 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: Jane Barden says, it's all shocking to her. 401 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 7: As an adult, you realize the weight of it. They 402 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 7: killed each other over insults, essentially. I mean, imagine how 403 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 7: far we've come. Only one hundred and sixty years ago, 404 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 7: people just killed each other over public insults. That's basically Twitter. 405 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 7: If Twitter existed one hundred and sixty years ago, I 406 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 7: guess everybody would just be mass murderers. 407 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: Yes, there are plenty senseless killings today, some that even 408 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: originated on Twitter, but murder over insults seemed to happen 409 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: even more in the nineteenth century. And that might sound 410 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: like a hardened view, but between slavery and poverty and 411 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: the honor code, the line between murder and self defense 412 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: was blurred in the eighteen hundreds, particularly as America approached 413 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: the Civil War. Men on both sides were preparing to 414 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: kill on the battlefield and to die for their country, 415 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: whether they wanted to or not. Even the gentry in 416 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: the United States would duel out of honor. Waynewitcher says 417 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: that these types of confrontations happened very often. 418 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily view one family as evil over the other, 419 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: except to say that when you put those type of 420 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: people together in a courtroom, and there is that much passion, 421 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: child custody and honor, and they are used to defending themselves. 422 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: And these are people who fought wars, recent wars, and 423 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 2: they saw a lot of bloodshed. It wasn't an unusual 424 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: thing for them to shoot someone or see someone shot. 425 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 2: I just don't consider this that's strange for the time 426 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 2: in which they lived. 427 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: Edith Wicher remembers something that her brother Homewards told me 428 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: about not holding people from the eighteen hundreds to the 429 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: same standards we now have, because regardless of what we 430 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: think is morally right or wrong, ethical decisions in the 431 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: nineteenth century might seem peculiar today. 432 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 6: I know Homer said that values aren't the same as 433 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 6: they were one hundred and fifty years ago. Maybe they're not, 434 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 6: but good and evil as the same. I think that 435 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 6: being able to accept that people's behavior might vary with 436 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 6: the period in their lives or you know, what's going 437 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 6: on with them, and helping them work through that or 438 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 6: accepting them as they're working through it is important, whether 439 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 6: it's your family or somebody else. And we've had a 440 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 6: lot of that in the Air ancestry, apparently, people working 441 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 6: through things, and I think some of them came over 442 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 6: and were pretty successful and some weren't. But that's probably 443 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 6: true in all families. 444 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,239 Speaker 1: Wesley Witcher says he has a strong connection to his 445 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: family's history. Having familial land to visit gave him a 446 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: sense of stability growing up that he really needed, and 447 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: he has Vincent all over Witcher and the Witchers who 448 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: came before him to think for that. 449 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 10: Well, my dad passed when I was very young, So 450 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 10: one thing that I'm thankful for about this family is 451 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 10: the inclusiveness. I was in Florida and we'd go up 452 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 10: to the font we caught the farm in Virginia quite regularly. 453 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 10: Then when we moved in North Carolina, I would go 454 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 10: there all the time, and it was just a great 455 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 10: place to romp around, like four hundred acres and just 456 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 10: you know, I have fun with all your cousins, my uncles, 457 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 10: my aunts. That it was just very welcoming. I had 458 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 10: a base. I think that's the best way I could 459 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 10: put it. 460 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: But just like Vicki Bordon, Wesley Witcher is disturbed by 461 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: the details he's learned about the deaths of the Clements 462 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: at Dickinson's store in eighteen sixty, and it might make 463 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: him view his relatives in the nineteenth century a little differently. 464 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 10: Now now I heard the story, you know about the shootout, 465 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 10: and your side's always the good guys, your sides always here. Well, 466 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 10: I'm questioning that now. These guys are mean. I'm not 467 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 10: proud of that, and I don't really want to know 468 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 10: that that was a side I didn't know. 469 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: Clement relative Desmond Kendrick reminds me that these aren't just stories. 470 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: This is family history and it must be presented accurately, 471 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: regardless of how horrible the details are. 472 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 5: They were real people. They're not just something that happened, 473 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 5: and they had feelings, and like my aunt's told me, 474 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 5: they had real feelings, real needs and just like we 475 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 5: do today. They were just in a different timeframe. Now 476 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 5: I have to respect them because that's what I do. 477 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: I study people like that, and that's my job too 478 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: as a crime historian, and accuracy is crucial to this story. 479 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 1: You could probably tell by now that facts in the 480 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: history of a family are incredibly important to the relatives 481 00:28:49,760 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: of both the Witches and the Clements. After everyone had 482 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: cleared out of Dickinson's store that Saturday in eighteen sixty, 483 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: the bodies of James, Ralph and Johnston Clement were removed. 484 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: They were carried on a carriage to Mountain View Plantation, 485 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: where their father, doctor George Clement lived. The three brothers 486 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: would later be buried in the small family cemetery behind 487 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: the mansion, just feet from where their parents would eventually lie. 488 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: The Witchers fretted not because they had killed three men, 489 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: but because they were unsure of what would happen next. 490 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: Local historian Bill Gurant says he's sure that the Witchers 491 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: received special treatment from the beginning just because of who 492 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: they were in the community. 493 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure you 494 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 3: didn't have the sheriff showing up and hauling them off 495 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 3: to jail and putting them in jail waiting for their trial. 496 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 3: Either they just walked and waited. 497 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: Bill's partially right. The Witchers who had participated in murdering 498 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: the three Clement brothers were released to their families as 499 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: some decisions were being made. Wayne Witcher says that after 500 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: the prosecutors heard from the witnesses, he ordered all five 501 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: men to surrender. So, almost three weeks after the killings, 502 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver Witcher and his grandsons reported to the sheriff. 503 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: Captain Vincent Oliver Witcher. His four grandsons, Vincent Addison Witcher, 504 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: Samuel Swanson, John A. Witcher, and Vincent Oliver Smith were charged. 505 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: Five men were charged with murder and a conviction would 506 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: surely mean a death sentence for each one, five hangings 507 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: at the gallows. The court documents say that Vincent Oliver 508 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: and at least one grandson named John Anthony Smith were 509 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: denied bail. They stayed in jail as their attorneys settled 510 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: on a legal strategy. Being behind bars must have been 511 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: humiliating for a powerful and influential politician like Vincent Oliver Witcher. 512 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure he never anticipated being censured for protecting his family, 513 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: But the local prosecutor looked at the totality of the 514 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: evidence from that shootout and concluded that what happened at 515 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: Dickinson's store wasn't self defense, it was murder. But the 516 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: Witchers still had some hope because a panel of judges 517 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: would decide their fate, not the clements. There were five 518 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: justices on the examining court in that area of Virginia 519 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty who were assigned to hear the prosecutor's case. 520 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: The judges would read the charges, listen to the witnesses, 521 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: and then decide if the Witchers should go on to 522 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: trial for murder. I'm curious about what their strategy would be, 523 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: and so is Bill Grant. All five Witchers pleaded not guilty. 524 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: Bill says that the patriarch of the Witchers, Vincent Oliver, 525 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: was intimidating to most people in the county, and he 526 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: might have also intimidated his own family during those depositions. 527 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 3: He was a very prickly, violent, quick tempered, ill tempered man. 528 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: He may have bullied his grandsons and sons into feeling. 529 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 3: Now people you know, feel like they had to go 530 00:31:59,240 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 3: along with it. 531 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 8: It's like if I don't doesn't boew this guy? 532 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 3: What's granddad going to do to me? Think you look 533 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 3: at the subsequent history and you don't see any reason 534 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 3: to think that they would be squeamish about that sort 535 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 3: of thing. You can't imagine them walking out of there, 536 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 3: blood dripping all off of them saying, well, we took 537 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 3: care of that problem. 538 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: But maybe the five Witchers would avoid a murder trial 539 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: if Vincent Oliver leveraged his political power. Wayne Wincher says 540 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: that state politicians had a lot of sway in the 541 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: court system, especially in the eighteen hundreds, and Vincent Oliver 542 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: was very well connected. What is a local politician? What 543 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: kind of power does somebody like that have in a 544 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: rural area at the time in the eighteen sixties like Pennsylvania. 545 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: You know how it works like today. I'm pretty sure 546 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 2: that if you're a politician, you know the right people 547 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: and you know the right strings to pull to make 548 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: things happen. And I'm pretty sure that this individual, having 549 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: been a member of a very important family in the 550 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 2: foundation of that county, I'm pretty sure that he could 551 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: pull the right strings to get things done. 552 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: So here's another place where this story gets kind of tricky. 553 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: The prosecutor had a very specific theory about this case, 554 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: a theory that Jane Borden brings up to me. Did 555 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: the Witchers plan the massacre? Did they intend to kill 556 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: James Clement? At this hearing? Was James right to be 557 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: wary of them? Or was he just being paranoid? That 558 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: night on Dickinson's porch. 559 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 8: They were held while they were shot, they were restrained. 560 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 8: So do you think it was planned? 561 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 7: Do you think that there was like a gameplay, someone 562 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 7: called a play and they had practiced it. 563 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's suspicious that James Clement said that 564 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: the Witchers had been uncharacteristically calm in the days before, 565 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, I would expect that they planned it. 566 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 7: I assumed that it was the shootout that had happened 567 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 7: a couple days earlier. 568 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 8: But at that point the Witchers were like, all right, 569 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 8: let's make a plan, this ends now, something like that. 570 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: And that was the crux of these upcoming proceedings with 571 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: the panel of judges. The prosecutor accused the five Witcheres 572 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: of premeditated murder. It was clearly planned, but the Witchers 573 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: had a different explanation of the violence. They were just 574 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: defending themselves, and Wayne Witcher might agree. 575 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 2: All of this evidence that you're bringing forward does seem 576 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 2: to indicate to me that there was just cause for 577 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: defending themselves, especially if you look at some of the 578 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 2: reports which indicate that it wasn't Vincent Oliver who pulled 579 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 2: the weapon, it was James Clement who pulled the weapon. 580 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 2: So it does look to me like it was an 581 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 2: issue of self defense, at least depending on which account 582 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: you read, because you know, you pull a gun. 583 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: You get shot, and the examining court might feel the 584 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: same way. It's true that the Clements were also armed, 585 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: three Witchers were injured. Both families threatened each other, and 586 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: both families attacked one another, But was it murder or 587 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: self defense? As we talked about earlier, the consequences of 588 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: the honor code often reached far past the two people 589 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: involved in the duel. The families were also a f 590 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: and that also included doctor George Clement, the Franklin County 591 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: physician who never seemed to attract negative attention, felt that 592 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: he had to defend himself and his children, particularly James. 593 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: After the deaths of his three sons, Doctor Clement wrote 594 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: a letter called to the public. It read, I feel 595 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: due to their memory and as an act of justice 596 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: to their surviving friends, to present in this form a 597 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 1: full and impartial statement of the whole matter. Doctor Clement 598 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: believed that had certain witnesses been able to testify at 599 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: Dickinson's store, then they would have absolved James of all 600 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: of these baseless charges. Wayne Witcher says that George Clement 601 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: mourned the loss of his sons and the taint of 602 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: allegations against his family. 603 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 2: What I've heard is that doctor George Clement pretty much 604 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: spent the rest of his life in depression, and he 605 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: was very saddened at the loss of his sons. And 606 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 2: I would be also, I can understand completely, and it's 607 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 2: my understanding that he spent quite a bit of time 608 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: trying to absolve James of the bad reputation that had 609 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 2: come upon him. He spent quite a bit of time 610 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: trying to cause the public to understand that his sons 611 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 2: had been murdered at the hands of these violent witcher 612 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 2: men in that courtroom. 613 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: Near the end of these stories, I usually search for 614 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: something positive within the terrible circumstances that serve as the 615 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: plot to a season. Vicki Borden says she's not sure 616 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: there's anything positive to this story. 617 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 9: It's a woman who runs away with her child, comes back, 618 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 9: runs away again. There's a court case, there's a huge 619 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 9: fight in the courtroom. People are killed, James is killed, 620 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 9: and then bam, that's the end of it. I don't 621 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 9: think anything good came out of it for anybody. 622 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: But in eighteen sixty, perhaps there might be some justice 623 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 1: for all of the Clement family of Virginia. Vincent Oliver 624 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: Witcher and his four grandsons. I might go to trial 625 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: for murdering James and Ralph and Johnston Clement. The Witchers 626 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: were claiming self defense. They said they were just protecting 627 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: themselves because the Clements were armed too. They would soon 628 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,879 Speaker 1: argue before the justices that they were in the right 629 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: to shoot and stab those men, even if their deaths 630 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: seemed brutal. It was absolutely self defense. Now I'm wondering 631 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: was this a valid defense or maybe a better question 632 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: is will it work? On the final episode of this 633 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: season of tenfold War wicked on exactly right. 634 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 5: I was kind of ashamed of it in a respect. 635 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 5: I mean, I would still talk about it, but I 636 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 5: had a shame on it. Because of the way it happened. 637 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 5: And then I got thinking about it when I was 638 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 5: old enough to understand, why are you ashamed of this? 639 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: This happened so you don't own any of the old property. 640 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: Oh no, nobody does nobody. 641 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 2: No, no, they own all that land around here. 642 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: And then after that shooting, that one event changed it 643 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: so much. 644 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 6: If you look back through the family history, it's some 645 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 6: of the people you want to boast of bed but 646 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 6: then they're also some of you just assume, not playing publicly. 647 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 6: I think the perversity of mankind. No one is all 648 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 6: good or evil. 649 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for 650 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked 651 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: is based on our first season of Tenfold War Wicked. 652 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of Killer 653 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 654 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 655 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: right tenfold War. Media production producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Amrosi 656 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,240 Speaker 1: and Laura Sobole. Sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, 657 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive produce are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff 658 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at 659 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And 660 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: if you know of a historical true crime that could 661 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: use some attention, email us at info at tenfoldmoremedia dot com. 662 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: Subscribe now on Amazon Music, Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 663 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: you like to listen