WEBVTT - Cooking Through the Crisis with Mark Bittman 0:00:19.996 --> 0:00:23.436 From Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show where 0:00:23.436 --> 0:00:26.596 we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.556 --> 0:00:30.316 These are not normal times. For the last few weeks, 0:00:30.556 --> 0:00:32.876 the only issue that's been in the news or really 0:00:32.876 --> 0:00:38.036 on anybody's mind has been the coronavirus. Consequently, we've really 0:00:38.076 --> 0:00:40.956 been trying hard here on Deep Background to bring you 0:00:41.116 --> 0:00:45.156 updates from the leading experts on the medical side, on 0:00:45.196 --> 0:00:48.436 the economic side, and on the constitutional political side, to 0:00:48.516 --> 0:00:51.716 try to make sense of what's happening. We promise to 0:00:51.796 --> 0:00:54.996 keep on doing that. This episode is a little different. 0:00:55.596 --> 0:00:57.756 It's about a topic that turns out to be of 0:00:57.876 --> 0:01:01.556 central importance in a moment of pandemic with everybody staying 0:01:01.556 --> 0:01:04.956 at home, namely the topic of food, what we eat, 0:01:05.316 --> 0:01:07.236 why we eat it, and how we think about the 0:01:07.276 --> 0:01:09.716 supply chains associated with the food that we put on 0:01:09.756 --> 0:01:13.596 the table. But this episode was not recorded in the 0:01:13.636 --> 0:01:18.076 middle of the pandemic. This episode was recorded before people 0:01:18.116 --> 0:01:21.516 started staying at home. Nevertheless, we think it's really important 0:01:21.516 --> 0:01:24.116 to bring it to you right now, because in the 0:01:24.196 --> 0:01:27.756 circumstances of pandemic and social distancing, we're sitting around our 0:01:27.796 --> 0:01:30.076 houses thinking about how to put food on the table 0:01:30.156 --> 0:01:32.836 for ourselves and our loved ones, and that entails cooking, 0:01:33.156 --> 0:01:36.716 cooking not purely for pleasure, but cooking because it might 0:01:36.756 --> 0:01:39.076 be the only way you're actually going to have a 0:01:39.156 --> 0:01:42.716 properly prepared meal. We know that by virtue of the 0:01:42.716 --> 0:01:44.876 fact that so many restaurants are closed in so many 0:01:44.916 --> 0:01:47.196 parts of the country, and also by virtue of the 0:01:47.236 --> 0:01:50.596 fact that so many grocery stores have had their shelves 0:01:50.636 --> 0:01:53.996 emptied as people go out to buy food in anticipation 0:01:54.076 --> 0:01:58.636 of possible long quarantines. So today we're going to hear 0:01:58.676 --> 0:02:00.716 from a person who has taught many of us how 0:02:00.756 --> 0:02:03.516 to cook, someone who has had a huge impact on 0:02:03.636 --> 0:02:06.396 my life and that of many others, the food writer 0:02:06.716 --> 0:02:11.076 Mark Bittman. There's a good chance you own or have 0:02:11.156 --> 0:02:13.716 seen at least one of his cookbooks. His most famous 0:02:13.716 --> 0:02:17.356 one is called How to Cook Everything. That book taught 0:02:17.396 --> 0:02:19.636 millions of people how to cook, and I have the 0:02:19.676 --> 0:02:22.236 feeling that it may be teaching many more how to 0:02:22.276 --> 0:02:26.276 cook in the weeks and months ahead. Recently, Mark released 0:02:26.276 --> 0:02:31.036 an updated twentieth year anniversary edition. He's also written Fish, 0:02:31.276 --> 0:02:33.836 The Complete Guide to Buying and Cooking, a book that 0:02:33.876 --> 0:02:36.076 had a big impact on my relationship with my mother, 0:02:36.116 --> 0:02:39.316 as will explore, and a diet book called Vegan Before 0:02:39.436 --> 0:02:44.116 six Pm vb six, and beyond that almost two dozen 0:02:44.276 --> 0:02:47.436 other books on various aspects of food. He was a 0:02:47.436 --> 0:02:49.916 food columnist for The New York Times for thirteen years, 0:02:50.356 --> 0:02:53.116 and he's now editor in chief of the food publication 0:02:53.556 --> 0:02:56.876 he did. I talked to Mark about the transformation he 0:02:56.956 --> 0:02:59.916 has seen over the course of his career in how 0:03:00.076 --> 0:03:02.916 he talks about food and how we think about it. 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:05.436 Thank you so much for doing this. I really I 0:03:05.516 --> 0:03:08.116 appreciate it tremendously. I mean looking forward to it. If 0:03:08.116 --> 0:03:10.236 I could start on a personal note, I just want 0:03:10.276 --> 0:03:12.716 to say that your Fish book has played a central 0:03:12.796 --> 0:03:16.476 role in my relationship with my mother over many, many years, 0:03:16.556 --> 0:03:21.116 involving a complex polemic about whether it's okay to undercook 0:03:21.116 --> 0:03:23.876 the fish or, as you would put it, okay not 0:03:23.916 --> 0:03:26.796 to overcook the fish. Right, I have to say that 0:03:27.196 --> 0:03:32.356 fish is tricky, Cooking fish is tricky, and every general 0:03:32.396 --> 0:03:36.236 rule is pretty much wrong. So the thing is that 0:03:36.316 --> 0:03:38.596 some fish wants to be cooked for a long time, 0:03:38.636 --> 0:03:41.516 and most fish barely wants to be cooked all. So 0:03:42.036 --> 0:03:45.236 that is that was the first book I did. It 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:47.556 was published in ninety four and the publisher wanted me 0:03:47.596 --> 0:03:50.836 to redo it. I said, it's impossible to write about 0:03:50.876 --> 0:03:55.756 fish now. There's so many moral mine fields ethical mine 0:03:55.796 --> 0:03:59.476 fields that anything you write, if someone wants to trash you, 0:03:59.716 --> 0:04:04.356 they can trash you. And it just it's not it's 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:06.716 hard to encourage the eating of fish, even though it's 0:04:06.716 --> 0:04:12.396 good for people, because the sustainability issues and other issues 0:04:12.436 --> 0:04:16.276 are so fraught that I just kind of decided I 0:04:16.316 --> 0:04:20.036 wasn't going to write about it. Yeah, that's extremely fascinating. 0:04:20.036 --> 0:04:23.756 And the sense that there's a moral compunction that interferes with, 0:04:24.236 --> 0:04:26.916 you know, going back and even doing a second edition 0:04:26.956 --> 0:04:28.876 of the book or a further edition of the book 0:04:29.396 --> 0:04:32.276 raises a question that I've been really struggling with and 0:04:32.516 --> 0:04:34.956 thinking about our conversation advance. And here's what it is. 0:04:35.596 --> 0:04:38.756 I feel as though when you started writing as a 0:04:38.796 --> 0:04:42.116 food writer, the genre, not yours in particular, but the 0:04:42.156 --> 0:04:46.036 way the genre worked was still very much a kind 0:04:46.036 --> 0:04:50.516 of life improvement. If you will cook this recipe in 0:04:50.516 --> 0:04:52.436 this way, it will taste good, so you'll feel better 0:04:52.476 --> 0:04:55.276 because you're eating better food, and your life will be 0:04:55.276 --> 0:04:58.076 better because the people around you will also enjoy this. 0:04:59.036 --> 0:05:02.436 And now the genre, including very much your work has 0:05:02.596 --> 0:05:06.436 evolved so that very often you're also telling us what's 0:05:06.476 --> 0:05:08.876 good for the world, not just what's good for you 0:05:09.196 --> 0:05:12.996 reader in cooking or in eating, but how the world 0:05:13.036 --> 0:05:16.076 will benefit. And so the problem with eating fish, for example, 0:05:16.076 --> 0:05:17.476 as you say, it might be great for you, but 0:05:17.516 --> 0:05:20.476 it might be really bad for the world. So how 0:05:20.476 --> 0:05:23.276 do you think about that those those two roles. Obviously 0:05:23.316 --> 0:05:25.356 they can be mixed, But first of all, do you 0:05:25.396 --> 0:05:27.276 think that has changed over the course of your career? 0:05:27.276 --> 0:05:29.756 And more importantly, how has it changed for you? Well? 0:05:29.756 --> 0:05:35.756 You is a wonderful analysis and totally true. And I 0:05:35.836 --> 0:05:39.876 started cooking in the seventies and we were ignorant. So 0:05:39.916 --> 0:05:45.076 those questions weren't raised because we in general were more ignorant. 0:05:45.116 --> 0:05:49.996 I in particular was way more ignorant. So things did 0:05:50.036 --> 0:05:53.356 start to change, but they changed very slowly. People didn't 0:05:53.396 --> 0:05:57.756 talk about climate change, people didn't talk about waste, and 0:05:57.796 --> 0:06:01.836 it's taken until now. You know, we want to we 0:06:02.116 --> 0:06:06.756 people who are striving to have food being taken seriously 0:06:06.796 --> 0:06:11.076 on a grander stage in a I mean not just hunger, 0:06:11.156 --> 0:06:13.796 but all of the issues that we talk about, malnutrition 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:17.396 and sustainability and the impact of agriculture on the environment 0:06:17.436 --> 0:06:23.356 and climate change and all of that stuff. We, I guess, 0:06:23.796 --> 0:06:27.996 me and my comrades whatever think that food has gotten 0:06:28.596 --> 0:06:33.796 underplayed in its role in these huge issues. And I 0:06:33.836 --> 0:06:36.996 still think that's the case, although more and more people 0:06:37.076 --> 0:06:40.916 do talk about food and agriculture in that bigger sense. 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:43.996 But and you're out there talking about all as are as. 0:06:43.996 --> 0:06:48.196 You say, your comrades, but you know, I'm just one voice, 0:06:48.196 --> 0:06:52.556 and not a particularly loud one. But yeah, back in 0:06:52.596 --> 0:06:56.076 the sixties and seventies, you ate food because it tasted good, 0:06:56.116 --> 0:06:58.556 and you cooked because it tasted better, and you kind 0:06:58.556 --> 0:07:02.716 of didn't You might think about good ingredients, but if 0:07:02.756 --> 0:07:04.676 they were there, you saw them and you ate them, 0:07:04.676 --> 0:07:07.796 but you didn't go talking about them all the time. 0:07:07.836 --> 0:07:11.436 I don't think even so, even within the doing good 0:07:11.476 --> 0:07:13.276 for the world, there's still two different parts. There's the 0:07:13.356 --> 0:07:17.516 health part and then there's the global health part, the sustainability. 0:07:17.556 --> 0:07:19.276 You know that the planet as it were, as the 0:07:19.436 --> 0:07:24.476 as the patient, well, well we're the happy and sad 0:07:24.516 --> 0:07:29.436 circumstance here, and quite possibly unique or at least unusual, 0:07:29.676 --> 0:07:33.116 is that what's good for you is good for the planet, 0:07:33.196 --> 0:07:35.996 and vice versa. That the way to eat for your 0:07:36.036 --> 0:07:39.716 body's optimal health happens to be the way that good 0:07:39.716 --> 0:07:43.756 agriculture would be providing you with food and protecting the 0:07:43.756 --> 0:07:46.996 health of the earth. So and is that genuinely by accident? 0:07:47.316 --> 0:07:49.356 I mean, this is something I'm puzzling over very much. 0:07:49.916 --> 0:07:54.036 I mean, God, right, so exactly. So, I mean we're 0:07:54.036 --> 0:07:55.876 actually going there, believe it or not. We're going to 0:07:55.916 --> 0:07:58.916 God in this conversation one way or another. But you know, 0:07:58.916 --> 0:08:01.516 the vegans, the hardcore vegans, would say, yeah, it's not 0:08:01.596 --> 0:08:03.636 a coincidence at all, and a lot of them would 0:08:03.676 --> 0:08:05.396 offer it. Not all, but some of that would offer 0:08:05.436 --> 0:08:08.156 a kind of what I would call a secular theology 0:08:09.156 --> 0:08:12.156 in which we are in some way in communion with 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:14.956 the earth, and therefore it's not a surprise that that 0:08:14.996 --> 0:08:17.996 which is good for our bodies is grown out of 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:19.996 the earth. You know, I don't think I'm making this 0:08:20.036 --> 0:08:21.916 out to be much more mystical than a lot of 0:08:22.076 --> 0:08:23.996 a lot of vegans would describe it as as being. 0:08:24.596 --> 0:08:26.196 And I should say, I'm not a vegan. I'm trying 0:08:26.196 --> 0:08:28.036 to channel that at that point of view here. Well, 0:08:28.036 --> 0:08:30.396 I mean vegan or not, because you can believe that 0:08:30.476 --> 0:08:34.596 animals and even eating animals are part of this system. 0:08:34.876 --> 0:08:36.796 I don't think you have to be a vegan to 0:08:37.596 --> 0:08:40.796 believe that that there is some kind of system that 0:08:41.716 --> 0:08:45.476 nourishes both the planet and people. So I don't think 0:08:45.476 --> 0:08:48.236 this needs to be a vegan or non argument. In fact, 0:08:48.276 --> 0:08:50.636 it makes more sense from that's real a cosmic perspective 0:08:50.676 --> 0:08:54.436 to be an omnivore. Insofar as you think there's some 0:08:54.476 --> 0:08:57.436 evolutionary component to this, you know, it's probably not a 0:08:57.476 --> 0:09:01.276 coincidence that humans have evolved to be omnivorous. Right, It's 0:09:01.276 --> 0:09:05.676 not a that we can say, I think with some assuredness. 0:09:05.716 --> 0:09:08.836 But um, it's hard because if you're going to put 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:11.636 a layable on it that it's mystical or spiritual, then 0:09:12.276 --> 0:09:14.676 it's difficult to make that argument. You kind of either 0:09:14.756 --> 0:09:16.756 believe it or you don't. But if you're gonna put 0:09:16.756 --> 0:09:19.516 a label on it, if you're gonna say it's not 0:09:19.596 --> 0:09:22.476 a coincidence that what's good for the planet is good 0:09:22.476 --> 0:09:25.716 for the people who live on the planet, that doesn't 0:09:25.756 --> 0:09:28.076 have to be a mystical or spiritual argument. That can 0:09:28.116 --> 0:09:30.836 be a pragmatic argument. I just don't know that I'm 0:09:30.876 --> 0:09:34.596 prepared to make it it's a great prefer the question. Well, 0:09:34.756 --> 0:09:39.196 fine to say right exactly. Yeah, I think that it's true. 0:09:39.676 --> 0:09:43.836 It is hard to believe it's a coincident, like it 0:09:43.876 --> 0:09:46.956 just happens to be that way. I don't know that 0:09:46.996 --> 0:09:51.716 anyone's made the argument that growing the plants that nourish 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:56.076 your body are by necessity the plants that are good 0:09:56.076 --> 0:10:00.836 for stewarding the land. And it is that way. But 0:10:01.356 --> 0:10:05.396 it's not because of teleology or God or something but 0:10:05.516 --> 0:10:07.956 it and it's not because of nature, because we're literally 0:10:07.956 --> 0:10:10.396 talking about his culture, which originally is like the culture. 0:10:10.596 --> 0:10:13.556 The word culture comes from agriculture. It's about growing stuff. 0:10:13.756 --> 0:10:16.036 So it's a self conscious thing. It's not a hundred 0:10:16.036 --> 0:10:19.956 gatherer picture. It's not a paleo diet account whereby the 0:10:20.036 --> 0:10:21.756 things we really should eat would be just the things 0:10:21.756 --> 0:10:23.876 that we happen to find, because if that were the case, 0:10:24.036 --> 0:10:26.556 we really wouldn't be able to sustain anything like the 0:10:26.876 --> 0:10:29.876 global population that we do. We need to grow some stuff, Well, 0:10:30.236 --> 0:10:32.636 we don't know that we are sustaining it, and we 0:10:32.676 --> 0:10:36.516 do know that populations that are five thousand years old 0:10:36.596 --> 0:10:42.156 have sustained themselves by doing more earth friendly forms of agriculture. 0:10:42.316 --> 0:10:45.116 So the biggest and oldest populations in the world, which 0:10:45.116 --> 0:10:50.156 are in Asia, eat mostly plants and always have and 0:10:50.196 --> 0:10:55.396 have done agriculture that could be argued is sustainable. And 0:10:55.436 --> 0:10:58.636 if something has proven itself over five thousand years. We're 0:10:58.676 --> 0:11:01.356 talking about rice culture now, right, yeah, kind of kind 0:11:01.356 --> 0:11:04.876 of but we culture too, but culture where there have 0:11:04.996 --> 0:11:08.356 been water challenges and weather challenges and challenges to the 0:11:08.396 --> 0:11:12.316 civilization themselves, but that the food culture has been sustained. 0:11:12.356 --> 0:11:15.516 There's no Western food culture that's been sustained for anything 0:11:15.556 --> 0:11:19.276 like that period of time, and certainly not in North America. 0:11:19.396 --> 0:11:21.476 I mean, everything that we've done in the last say, 0:11:21.476 --> 0:11:25.676 one hundred and fifty two hundred years, is only that old. 0:11:26.276 --> 0:11:29.396 That's how old it is. Yes, you can't call that sustainable, 0:11:29.476 --> 0:11:31.636 even if at the moment it appears to be working. 0:11:31.676 --> 0:11:33.836 It's not long enough to say, oh, yeah, this is 0:11:34.636 --> 0:11:38.836 You know that it's funny to get into the kind 0:11:38.836 --> 0:11:42.236 of philosophical or interesting to get into the kind of 0:11:42.236 --> 0:11:46.756 philosophical side of things, because when people argue that industrial 0:11:46.796 --> 0:11:49.236 agriculture is the way to do it, because how else 0:11:49.276 --> 0:11:51.436 are we going to support them doing air quotes? How 0:11:51.476 --> 0:11:54.036 else are we going to support ten billion people blah 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:56.956 blah blah, and that anything else is a pipe dream. 0:11:56.996 --> 0:12:00.596 The pipe dream is to imagine that industrial agriculture is sustainable, 0:12:00.636 --> 0:12:04.556 because there's so much evidence that it isn't. And the 0:12:04.676 --> 0:12:07.716 reality is to say, we need to make it better. 0:12:07.956 --> 0:12:10.436 How do we make ag culture better? That's not a 0:12:10.436 --> 0:12:12.676 pipe dream to say how do we make agriculture better? 0:12:12.676 --> 0:12:15.956 It's a pipe dream to say we figured out agriculture. No, 0:12:16.076 --> 0:12:18.276 we haven't. Quite the opposite. We figured out how to 0:12:18.316 --> 0:12:20.836 erect the earth and how to cause a public health 0:12:20.876 --> 0:12:25.276 crisis by force feeding people junk food. So what is 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:27.516 the answer? You know, the answer is it has to 0:12:27.556 --> 0:12:30.916 be better. The answer is it has to change. We'll 0:12:30.956 --> 0:12:42.716 be back in just a moment. I want to ask 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:47.396 you about the process whereby food writers and then the 0:12:47.396 --> 0:12:50.076 people who read them came to see the world in 0:12:50.076 --> 0:12:52.276 the way that you're describing, came to care first. I 0:12:52.316 --> 0:12:54.916 would say, probably in order, first about taste, then about health, 0:12:55.196 --> 0:12:58.836 and then about sustainability and the world. And the reason 0:12:58.876 --> 0:13:00.196 I want to ask about that is that I think 0:13:00.516 --> 0:13:04.276 the answer may have something to do with a very 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:08.956 particular elite, you know, upper middle class for lack of 0:13:08.956 --> 0:13:12.196 a better term. You know New York Times reading, and 0:13:12.276 --> 0:13:14.876 you know, I'm guilty as charged, you know, as as 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:18.756 a reader and sometime contributor. And the reason I'm asking 0:13:18.796 --> 0:13:22.036 this is, when the history of this is told, will 0:13:22.076 --> 0:13:25.156 they say, you know that it was something about pretty 0:13:25.236 --> 0:13:28.716 rich people who nevertheless had some or maybe because they 0:13:28.756 --> 0:13:34.036 had the money, were capable of thinking ethically that drove 0:13:34.156 --> 0:13:36.036 this this kind of process. Because if that were true, 0:13:36.036 --> 0:13:37.396 I don't know if that's a true story or a 0:13:37.396 --> 0:13:40.116 fair story, but if it were a true story, it 0:13:40.156 --> 0:13:43.676 does come from a certain kind of excess and excess 0:13:43.716 --> 0:13:47.836 of wealth and excess of you know, elite cultural position, 0:13:48.156 --> 0:13:51.036 and then it comes to seem like good common sense 0:13:51.756 --> 0:13:54.116 with you know, people like you functioning as kind of 0:13:54.116 --> 0:13:55.716 the profits of the story, you know, the ones who 0:13:55.756 --> 0:13:58.796 are who are telling this story and telling us, you know, 0:13:58.836 --> 0:14:00.956 what we ought to believe. And then it's not a 0:14:00.996 --> 0:14:02.796 coincidence that you start by telling us what we ought 0:14:02.796 --> 0:14:04.956 to eat because it tastes good, and then you move 0:14:05.196 --> 0:14:07.716 through that to telling us what to eat in order 0:14:07.756 --> 0:14:10.676 to make the world a better place. You know, there 0:14:10.676 --> 0:14:13.076 are many other factors that you haven't mentioned, but I 0:14:13.116 --> 0:14:17.236 think one thing you're overlooking in this story is that 0:14:17.676 --> 0:14:20.636 let's say one third of the world has been eating 0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:25.196 according to the tenets of sustainability forever, and they're not 0:14:25.476 --> 0:14:28.756 New York Times readers, and they're not white elites. But 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:30.236 they may not have been doing it in order for 0:14:30.276 --> 0:14:31.836 it to be sustainable. They may just have been doing 0:14:31.876 --> 0:14:35.836 it because it worked for them. Come on, that's not sustainability. 0:14:35.876 --> 0:14:38.236 I mean it worked for them for five thousand years. Yeah, 0:14:38.236 --> 0:14:39.796 but people don't always I mean, just to push back 0:14:39.836 --> 0:14:41.356 a little bit, I mean, I hear what you're saying, 0:14:41.356 --> 0:14:44.356 but people don't always do something because they know that 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:46.996 it's always worked. I mean they people do things on 0:14:47.036 --> 0:14:49.476 a daily basis for all kinds of ordinary reasons. Sometimes 0:14:49.476 --> 0:14:51.956 failing to change something that's people. You know, take some 0:14:51.996 --> 0:14:54.796 oppressive structure that we've that's been around for five thousand years, 0:14:54.836 --> 0:14:56.956 I don't know, sexism or something like that, people say, well, 0:14:56.996 --> 0:14:58.676 we always have done it this way, so we stick 0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:00.636 with it. And then a critic wants to say, yeah, 0:15:00.636 --> 0:15:02.636 but you know, you think that works, but it doesn't 0:15:02.676 --> 0:15:04.676 work for half the people, and so, you know, I 0:15:04.716 --> 0:15:07.436 don't want to jump to the conclusion that the antiquity 0:15:07.436 --> 0:15:11.116 of a practice shows that it's necessarily a good one. Well, 0:15:11.116 --> 0:15:17.036 except when people switch from traditional diets to contemporary Western 0:15:17.076 --> 0:15:20.516 diets they get chronic disease. Yes, there's no question that 0:15:21.036 --> 0:15:24.516 is the truth. So I think that it's arguable and 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:30.676 demonstrable that traditional diets work and that we're not discovering 0:15:30.716 --> 0:15:33.556 anything new here when we're saying eat a diet that's 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:36.316 heavy in plants and light in anything else. What we 0:15:36.436 --> 0:15:39.156 have done that's new is in the last one hundred, 0:15:39.196 --> 0:15:41.156 one hundred and fifty years, is invent a bunch of 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:44.316 food that makes people sick that didn't even exist before that. 0:15:45.116 --> 0:15:49.796 And yeah, I think maybe it takes public intellectuals or whatever. 0:15:49.836 --> 0:15:52.596 The shortcut version of what you said before is to 0:15:52.716 --> 0:15:55.276 recognize that first, a lot of it is an academic 0:15:55.316 --> 0:15:59.716 comes out of academia. But the marketing of that junk 0:15:59.836 --> 0:16:06.356 food targets everyone, but it targets less well off people disproportionately, 0:16:07.556 --> 0:16:11.436 and it targets everyone to the extent that it can, 0:16:12.436 --> 0:16:15.756 and it targets us so well that it's almost as 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:18.116 if there's no choice but to eat junk food. So 0:16:18.236 --> 0:16:23.036 rebelling against that or recognizing that is not easy, and 0:16:23.796 --> 0:16:26.476 many people are just simply too busy you know, they're 0:16:26.516 --> 0:16:28.756 just like trying to get some food. And there's a 0:16:28.796 --> 0:16:31.556 wealth and a class element obviously there as well. It's 0:16:31.636 --> 0:16:33.516 you have to live in a neighborhood where there are 0:16:33.556 --> 0:16:35.676 shops that's self fresh food. You have to be able 0:16:35.676 --> 0:16:37.516 to afford to buy them. Although of course ideally it 0:16:37.556 --> 0:16:39.716 would be just as affordable as other food, but it 0:16:39.836 --> 0:16:42.396 isn't at the moment. You have to have the time 0:16:42.436 --> 0:16:44.396 to actually put the food on the table. And I 0:16:44.436 --> 0:16:46.796 recognize that lots of people who have free time to 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:48.796 say they don't when they really do. But on the 0:16:48.796 --> 0:16:50.596 other hand, there are people who are working two or 0:16:50.636 --> 0:16:53.716 three jobs and are genuinely at the margins economically who 0:16:53.796 --> 0:16:56.596 really don't have the time. Right I used to say, 0:16:56.636 --> 0:17:00.316 I used to argue that people everybody should cook, and 0:17:00.396 --> 0:17:03.436 that it was ironic that people would watch cooking on 0:17:03.516 --> 0:17:06.676 television and say they didn't have time to cook at home. Yes, 0:17:07.116 --> 0:17:10.796 but there are so many people who have transportation challenges 0:17:10.836 --> 0:17:14.316 and two job challenges and scheduling challenges and childcare issues 0:17:14.316 --> 0:17:16.596 and da da da dada, on and on and on. 0:17:17.556 --> 0:17:19.756 I don't think it's right to say that anymore. I 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:22.836 probably wasn't right to say it in the first place. Um, 0:17:23.036 --> 0:17:25.876 although it's a good line, and it's a great line, 0:17:25.876 --> 0:17:28.596 and it's and there are people who watch TV instead 0:17:28.596 --> 0:17:33.556 of cooking. I mean, maybe they're exhausted, pistending about exercise. 0:17:33.556 --> 0:17:35.316 You know, if you're watching sports on television, why an't 0:17:35.356 --> 0:17:37.796 you out there working out? And right that in theory 0:17:37.836 --> 0:17:41.076 that makes good sense. People's realities are are complicated, right, 0:17:41.476 --> 0:17:44.196 I think the real the real issue here, the real 0:17:44.996 --> 0:17:49.476 I don't think the real tragedy is that junk food 0:17:49.516 --> 0:17:55.596 marketers target everybody and they're very, very sophisticated. That kind 0:17:55.636 --> 0:17:59.476 of marketing, which is scientific and algorithmic and way beyond 0:17:59.676 --> 0:18:02.556 my understanding at least, you know, gets us to eat 0:18:02.596 --> 0:18:06.396 all kinds of things that we know we shouldn't be eating, 0:18:06.436 --> 0:18:09.636 and there's there's no question about whether we should be 0:18:09.636 --> 0:18:12.716 eating them the way quantities we are. And everyone has 0:18:12.756 --> 0:18:15.356 that experience. Everyone has the experience of looking at some 0:18:15.516 --> 0:18:17.636 piece of junk food and thinking, I know, I'm not 0:18:17.676 --> 0:18:20.116 supposed to eat that, and then eating it. Right, probably 0:18:20.116 --> 0:18:25.436 even Gwyneth Paltrow sometimes. But the point is that I 0:18:25.436 --> 0:18:28.756 don't think that that's the thing that doesn't get talked about. 0:18:29.196 --> 0:18:30.996 It gets talked about a lot, but it doesn't get 0:18:31.036 --> 0:18:33.716 talked about enough because that is the thing that's wrecking 0:18:33.796 --> 0:18:36.716 both our health and the health of the planet. So 0:18:36.876 --> 0:18:39.836 one solution to that is regulation, and I went to it. 0:18:39.876 --> 0:18:42.076 I'm down with that. Yeah. And when Mike Bloomberg was 0:18:42.316 --> 0:18:45.036 mayor of New York, he went big time into some 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:47.476 versions of that. I mean, I suppose from some perspective 0:18:47.476 --> 0:18:49.756 they were pretty modest. You know, you can't buy soda 0:18:49.836 --> 0:18:53.356 in a fort. You know, he tried to get a 0:18:53.396 --> 0:18:56.596 soda taxs past and fail and so so, but that 0:18:56.716 --> 0:18:59.076 was a backup plan. And you know, there was some 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:03.276 backlash to the Bloomberg approach. You know, people talked about 0:19:03.356 --> 0:19:06.196 the nanny state or the nanny mayor. That's something that 0:19:06.476 --> 0:19:08.516 may or may not follow him, you know, in his 0:19:08.556 --> 0:19:12.116 political future. How do you think about the possibilities, the 0:19:12.236 --> 0:19:14.876 real world possibilities of the kind of regulation that might 0:19:14.916 --> 0:19:17.636 be necessary to deal with the big corporations, because, as 0:19:17.636 --> 0:19:19.636 you point out, it's not enough just to educate people, 0:19:19.716 --> 0:19:22.036 because not withstand the education, there are all these other 0:19:22.036 --> 0:19:25.116 pressures on us. I mean, you're asking me to predict 0:19:25.196 --> 0:19:31.356 the winner of the twenty twenty election, because you're not 0:19:31.396 --> 0:19:33.756 going to make progress when you have a president who's 0:19:33.756 --> 0:19:36.916 trying to dismantle the EPA and every other progressive or 0:19:36.996 --> 0:19:40.756 potentially progressive arm of government. So we are at the 0:19:40.836 --> 0:19:44.796 point where we're trying to defend regulations that exist. Well, 0:19:44.916 --> 0:19:46.756 let me ask a simpler question that, or maybe it's simpler. 0:19:46.796 --> 0:19:49.676 I mean, do you think that disclosure regulations of the 0:19:49.756 --> 0:19:52.156 kind that require you know, chain restaurants to list the 0:19:52.236 --> 0:19:54.276 number of calories and their dishes and things like that 0:19:54.636 --> 0:19:57.196 are I mean, there's some data suggesting that they have 0:19:57.236 --> 0:19:58.836 some effect at the margin, So I'm not asking you 0:19:58.836 --> 0:20:00.876 about the data. What I'm asking is whether, at an 0:20:00.876 --> 0:20:02.996 instinctive level, you think, yeah, you know, if we do 0:20:03.076 --> 0:20:06.316 a whole lot more labeling will be much better off, 0:20:06.436 --> 0:20:08.876 or if your instinct is no, labeling is not going 0:20:08.916 --> 0:20:11.516 to be enough to go against the kind of sophisticated marketing. 0:20:11.716 --> 0:20:15.316 What we need is some actual legal rules that say, 0:20:15.516 --> 0:20:18.156 you know, certain kinds of food can't be sold to kids, 0:20:18.236 --> 0:20:20.436 or can't be sold in certain packaging, or can't be 0:20:20.476 --> 0:20:22.676 advertising in a certain way, which is what we've done 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:25.516 with tobacco. I guess I think the answer is both. 0:20:25.556 --> 0:20:29.476 I think that there's that incremental change is necessary at 0:20:29.476 --> 0:20:32.916 this point, even if it's just symbolic or representative. And 0:20:32.956 --> 0:20:36.276 I think food labeling, putting calories on, I mean, there 0:20:36.356 --> 0:20:38.236 is some data that says that it's useful, but it's 0:20:38.236 --> 0:20:42.516 certainly not revolutionary. But if you say more information is better, 0:20:42.796 --> 0:20:46.236 more truth is better, more actual truth is better. And 0:20:46.276 --> 0:20:48.996 we're starting by saying, you know, a whopper has a 0:20:49.076 --> 0:20:51.236 thousand calories or whatever, and you might want to know 0:20:51.356 --> 0:20:55.476 that that's something when you get to real transparency, when 0:20:55.516 --> 0:20:58.556 you can say we're going to have video cameras everywhere 0:20:58.636 --> 0:21:01.876 that that animals are confined, and we're going to show 0:21:01.916 --> 0:21:05.156 you on a minute to minute basis. You want to 0:21:05.156 --> 0:21:08.996 know where this burger is from. Here's how you can trace. 0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:12.396 I mean that's doable. We can trace the history of 0:21:12.516 --> 0:21:14.876 any any piece of food you like. You can see 0:21:14.876 --> 0:21:17.836 where it's from, how it's raised, how it was processed, 0:21:17.836 --> 0:21:21.836 and so on. That I think will help change consciousness. 0:21:21.876 --> 0:21:25.556 But I think some form of recognizing that sugar is 0:21:25.596 --> 0:21:28.716 the tobacco of the twenty first century, that junk food 0:21:28.796 --> 0:21:33.196 is damaging our health, and that government's job is to 0:21:33.236 --> 0:21:36.276 protect the public health, and to recognize that just like 0:21:36.316 --> 0:21:40.796 government's job is to recognize that vaccines are public health tools. 0:21:41.516 --> 0:21:45.876 If people don't think that, that's really unfortunate. But they're wrong. 0:21:46.156 --> 0:21:49.636 So now what do you want government to be about. Well, 0:21:49.676 --> 0:21:51.596 in facts, the case of vaccine, though, at least to 0:21:51.636 --> 0:21:53.676 my mind, is a pretty clear case where the law 0:21:53.756 --> 0:21:55.676 ought to dictate. Part of the reason for that is 0:21:55.716 --> 0:21:59.196 that they're such a big spillover effect on everybody else 0:21:59.596 --> 0:22:03.076