1 00:00:19,996 --> 00:00:23,436 Speaker 1: From Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show where 2 00:00:23,436 --> 00:00:26,596 Speaker 1: we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:27,556 --> 00:00:30,316 Speaker 1: These are not normal times. For the last few weeks, 4 00:00:30,556 --> 00:00:32,876 Speaker 1: the only issue that's been in the news or really 5 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:38,036 Speaker 1: on anybody's mind has been the coronavirus. Consequently, we've really 6 00:00:38,076 --> 00:00:40,956 Speaker 1: been trying hard here on Deep Background to bring you 7 00:00:41,116 --> 00:00:45,156 Speaker 1: updates from the leading experts on the medical side, on 8 00:00:45,196 --> 00:00:48,436 Speaker 1: the economic side, and on the constitutional political side, to 9 00:00:48,516 --> 00:00:51,716 Speaker 1: try to make sense of what's happening. We promise to 10 00:00:51,796 --> 00:00:54,996 Speaker 1: keep on doing that. This episode is a little different. 11 00:00:55,596 --> 00:00:57,756 Speaker 1: It's about a topic that turns out to be of 12 00:00:57,876 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 1: central importance in a moment of pandemic with everybody staying 13 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:04,956 Speaker 1: at home, namely the topic of food, what we eat, 14 00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 1: why we eat it, and how we think about the 15 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:09,716 Speaker 1: supply chains associated with the food that we put on 16 00:01:09,756 --> 00:01:13,596 Speaker 1: the table. But this episode was not recorded in the 17 00:01:13,636 --> 00:01:18,076 Speaker 1: middle of the pandemic. This episode was recorded before people 18 00:01:18,116 --> 00:01:21,516 Speaker 1: started staying at home. Nevertheless, we think it's really important 19 00:01:21,516 --> 00:01:24,116 Speaker 1: to bring it to you right now, because in the 20 00:01:24,196 --> 00:01:27,756 Speaker 1: circumstances of pandemic and social distancing, we're sitting around our 21 00:01:27,796 --> 00:01:30,076 Speaker 1: houses thinking about how to put food on the table 22 00:01:30,156 --> 00:01:32,836 Speaker 1: for ourselves and our loved ones, and that entails cooking, 23 00:01:33,156 --> 00:01:36,716 Speaker 1: cooking not purely for pleasure, but cooking because it might 24 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:39,076 Speaker 1: be the only way you're actually going to have a 25 00:01:39,156 --> 00:01:42,716 Speaker 1: properly prepared meal. We know that by virtue of the 26 00:01:42,716 --> 00:01:44,876 Speaker 1: fact that so many restaurants are closed in so many 27 00:01:44,916 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 1: parts of the country, and also by virtue of the 28 00:01:47,236 --> 00:01:50,596 Speaker 1: fact that so many grocery stores have had their shelves 29 00:01:50,636 --> 00:01:53,996 Speaker 1: emptied as people go out to buy food in anticipation 30 00:01:54,076 --> 00:01:58,636 Speaker 1: of possible long quarantines. So today we're going to hear 31 00:01:58,676 --> 00:02:00,716 Speaker 1: from a person who has taught many of us how 32 00:02:00,756 --> 00:02:03,516 Speaker 1: to cook, someone who has had a huge impact on 33 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 1: my life and that of many others, the food writer 34 00:02:06,716 --> 00:02:11,076 Speaker 1: Mark Bittman. There's a good chance you own or have 35 00:02:11,156 --> 00:02:13,716 Speaker 1: seen at least one of his cookbooks. His most famous 36 00:02:13,716 --> 00:02:17,356 Speaker 1: one is called How to Cook Everything. That book taught 37 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:19,636 Speaker 1: millions of people how to cook, and I have the 38 00:02:19,676 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 1: feeling that it may be teaching many more how to 39 00:02:22,276 --> 00:02:26,276 Speaker 1: cook in the weeks and months ahead. Recently, Mark released 40 00:02:26,276 --> 00:02:31,036 Speaker 1: an updated twentieth year anniversary edition. He's also written Fish, 41 00:02:31,276 --> 00:02:33,836 Speaker 1: The Complete Guide to Buying and Cooking, a book that 42 00:02:33,876 --> 00:02:36,076 Speaker 1: had a big impact on my relationship with my mother, 43 00:02:36,116 --> 00:02:39,316 Speaker 1: as will explore, and a diet book called Vegan Before 44 00:02:39,436 --> 00:02:44,116 Speaker 1: six Pm vb six, and beyond that almost two dozen 45 00:02:44,276 --> 00:02:47,436 Speaker 1: other books on various aspects of food. He was a 46 00:02:47,436 --> 00:02:49,916 Speaker 1: food columnist for The New York Times for thirteen years, 47 00:02:50,356 --> 00:02:53,116 Speaker 1: and he's now editor in chief of the food publication 48 00:02:53,556 --> 00:02:56,876 Speaker 1: he did. I talked to Mark about the transformation he 49 00:02:56,956 --> 00:02:59,916 Speaker 1: has seen over the course of his career in how 50 00:03:00,076 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 1: he talks about food and how we think about it. 51 00:03:03,356 --> 00:03:05,436 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this. I really I 52 00:03:05,516 --> 00:03:08,116 Speaker 1: appreciate it tremendously. I mean looking forward to it. If 53 00:03:08,116 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 1: I could start on a personal note, I just want 54 00:03:10,276 --> 00:03:12,716 Speaker 1: to say that your Fish book has played a central 55 00:03:12,796 --> 00:03:16,476 Speaker 1: role in my relationship with my mother over many, many years, 56 00:03:16,556 --> 00:03:21,116 Speaker 1: involving a complex polemic about whether it's okay to undercook 57 00:03:21,116 --> 00:03:23,876 Speaker 1: the fish or, as you would put it, okay not 58 00:03:23,916 --> 00:03:26,796 Speaker 1: to overcook the fish. Right, I have to say that 59 00:03:27,196 --> 00:03:32,356 Speaker 1: fish is tricky, Cooking fish is tricky, and every general 60 00:03:32,396 --> 00:03:36,236 Speaker 1: rule is pretty much wrong. So the thing is that 61 00:03:36,316 --> 00:03:38,596 Speaker 1: some fish wants to be cooked for a long time, 62 00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:41,516 Speaker 1: and most fish barely wants to be cooked all. So 63 00:03:42,036 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 1: that is that was the first book I did. It 64 00:03:45,276 --> 00:03:47,556 Speaker 1: was published in ninety four and the publisher wanted me 65 00:03:47,596 --> 00:03:50,836 Speaker 1: to redo it. I said, it's impossible to write about 66 00:03:50,876 --> 00:03:55,756 Speaker 1: fish now. There's so many moral mine fields ethical mine 67 00:03:55,796 --> 00:03:59,476 Speaker 1: fields that anything you write, if someone wants to trash you, 68 00:03:59,716 --> 00:04:04,356 Speaker 1: they can trash you. And it just it's not it's 69 00:04:04,356 --> 00:04:06,716 Speaker 1: hard to encourage the eating of fish, even though it's 70 00:04:06,716 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 1: good for people, because the sustainability issues and other issues 71 00:04:12,436 --> 00:04:16,276 Speaker 1: are so fraught that I just kind of decided I 72 00:04:16,316 --> 00:04:20,036 Speaker 1: wasn't going to write about it. Yeah, that's extremely fascinating. 73 00:04:20,036 --> 00:04:23,756 Speaker 1: And the sense that there's a moral compunction that interferes with, 74 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:26,916 Speaker 1: you know, going back and even doing a second edition 75 00:04:26,956 --> 00:04:28,876 Speaker 1: of the book or a further edition of the book 76 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:32,276 Speaker 1: raises a question that I've been really struggling with and 77 00:04:32,516 --> 00:04:34,956 Speaker 1: thinking about our conversation advance. And here's what it is. 78 00:04:35,596 --> 00:04:38,756 Speaker 1: I feel as though when you started writing as a 79 00:04:38,796 --> 00:04:42,116 Speaker 1: food writer, the genre, not yours in particular, but the 80 00:04:42,156 --> 00:04:46,036 Speaker 1: way the genre worked was still very much a kind 81 00:04:46,036 --> 00:04:50,516 Speaker 1: of life improvement. If you will cook this recipe in 82 00:04:50,516 --> 00:04:52,436 Speaker 1: this way, it will taste good, so you'll feel better 83 00:04:52,476 --> 00:04:55,276 Speaker 1: because you're eating better food, and your life will be 84 00:04:55,276 --> 00:04:58,076 Speaker 1: better because the people around you will also enjoy this. 85 00:04:59,036 --> 00:05:02,436 Speaker 1: And now the genre, including very much your work has 86 00:05:02,596 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 1: evolved so that very often you're also telling us what's 87 00:05:06,476 --> 00:05:08,876 Speaker 1: good for the world, not just what's good for you 88 00:05:09,196 --> 00:05:12,996 Speaker 1: reader in cooking or in eating, but how the world 89 00:05:13,036 --> 00:05:16,076 Speaker 1: will benefit. And so the problem with eating fish, for example, 90 00:05:16,076 --> 00:05:17,476 Speaker 1: as you say, it might be great for you, but 91 00:05:17,516 --> 00:05:20,476 Speaker 1: it might be really bad for the world. So how 92 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:23,276 Speaker 1: do you think about that those those two roles. Obviously 93 00:05:23,316 --> 00:05:25,356 Speaker 1: they can be mixed, But first of all, do you 94 00:05:25,396 --> 00:05:27,276 Speaker 1: think that has changed over the course of your career? 95 00:05:27,276 --> 00:05:29,756 Speaker 1: And more importantly, how has it changed for you? Well? 96 00:05:29,756 --> 00:05:35,756 Speaker 1: You is a wonderful analysis and totally true. And I 97 00:05:35,836 --> 00:05:39,876 Speaker 1: started cooking in the seventies and we were ignorant. So 98 00:05:39,916 --> 00:05:45,076 Speaker 1: those questions weren't raised because we in general were more ignorant. 99 00:05:45,116 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 1: I in particular was way more ignorant. So things did 100 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:53,356 Speaker 1: start to change, but they changed very slowly. People didn't 101 00:05:53,396 --> 00:05:57,756 Speaker 1: talk about climate change, people didn't talk about waste, and 102 00:05:57,796 --> 00:06:01,836 Speaker 1: it's taken until now. You know, we want to we 103 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:06,756 Speaker 1: people who are striving to have food being taken seriously 104 00:06:06,796 --> 00:06:11,076 Speaker 1: on a grander stage in a I mean not just hunger, 105 00:06:11,156 --> 00:06:13,796 Speaker 1: but all of the issues that we talk about, malnutrition 106 00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:17,396 Speaker 1: and sustainability and the impact of agriculture on the environment 107 00:06:17,436 --> 00:06:23,356 Speaker 1: and climate change and all of that stuff. We, I guess, 108 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:27,996 Speaker 1: me and my comrades whatever think that food has gotten 109 00:06:28,596 --> 00:06:33,796 Speaker 1: underplayed in its role in these huge issues. And I 110 00:06:33,836 --> 00:06:36,996 Speaker 1: still think that's the case, although more and more people 111 00:06:37,076 --> 00:06:40,916 Speaker 1: do talk about food and agriculture in that bigger sense. 112 00:06:41,076 --> 00:06:43,996 Speaker 1: But and you're out there talking about all as are as. 113 00:06:43,996 --> 00:06:48,196 Speaker 1: You say, your comrades, but you know, I'm just one voice, 114 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:52,556 Speaker 1: and not a particularly loud one. But yeah, back in 115 00:06:52,596 --> 00:06:56,076 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, you ate food because it tasted good, 116 00:06:56,116 --> 00:06:58,556 Speaker 1: and you cooked because it tasted better, and you kind 117 00:06:58,556 --> 00:07:02,716 Speaker 1: of didn't You might think about good ingredients, but if 118 00:07:02,756 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 1: they were there, you saw them and you ate them, 119 00:07:04,676 --> 00:07:07,796 Speaker 1: but you didn't go talking about them all the time. 120 00:07:07,836 --> 00:07:11,436 Speaker 1: I don't think even so, even within the doing good 121 00:07:11,476 --> 00:07:13,276 Speaker 1: for the world, there's still two different parts. There's the 122 00:07:13,356 --> 00:07:17,516 Speaker 1: health part and then there's the global health part, the sustainability. 123 00:07:17,556 --> 00:07:19,276 Speaker 1: You know that the planet as it were, as the 124 00:07:19,436 --> 00:07:24,476 Speaker 1: as the patient, well, well we're the happy and sad 125 00:07:24,516 --> 00:07:29,436 Speaker 1: circumstance here, and quite possibly unique or at least unusual, 126 00:07:29,676 --> 00:07:33,116 Speaker 1: is that what's good for you is good for the planet, 127 00:07:33,196 --> 00:07:35,996 Speaker 1: and vice versa. That the way to eat for your 128 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:39,716 Speaker 1: body's optimal health happens to be the way that good 129 00:07:39,716 --> 00:07:43,756 Speaker 1: agriculture would be providing you with food and protecting the 130 00:07:43,756 --> 00:07:46,996 Speaker 1: health of the earth. So and is that genuinely by accident? 131 00:07:47,316 --> 00:07:49,356 Speaker 1: I mean, this is something I'm puzzling over very much. 132 00:07:49,916 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 1: I mean, God, right, so exactly. So, I mean we're 133 00:07:54,036 --> 00:07:55,876 Speaker 1: actually going there, believe it or not. We're going to 134 00:07:55,916 --> 00:07:58,916 Speaker 1: God in this conversation one way or another. But you know, 135 00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:01,516 Speaker 1: the vegans, the hardcore vegans, would say, yeah, it's not 136 00:08:01,596 --> 00:08:03,636 Speaker 1: a coincidence at all, and a lot of them would 137 00:08:03,676 --> 00:08:05,396 Speaker 1: offer it. Not all, but some of that would offer 138 00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 1: a kind of what I would call a secular theology 139 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:12,156 Speaker 1: in which we are in some way in communion with 140 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:14,956 Speaker 1: the earth, and therefore it's not a surprise that that 141 00:08:14,996 --> 00:08:17,996 Speaker 1: which is good for our bodies is grown out of 142 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:19,996 Speaker 1: the earth. You know, I don't think I'm making this 143 00:08:20,036 --> 00:08:21,916 Speaker 1: out to be much more mystical than a lot of 144 00:08:22,076 --> 00:08:23,996 Speaker 1: a lot of vegans would describe it as as being. 145 00:08:24,596 --> 00:08:26,196 Speaker 1: And I should say, I'm not a vegan. I'm trying 146 00:08:26,196 --> 00:08:28,036 Speaker 1: to channel that at that point of view here. Well, 147 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:30,396 Speaker 1: I mean vegan or not, because you can believe that 148 00:08:30,476 --> 00:08:34,596 Speaker 1: animals and even eating animals are part of this system. 149 00:08:34,876 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 1: I don't think you have to be a vegan to 150 00:08:37,596 --> 00:08:40,796 Speaker 1: believe that that there is some kind of system that 151 00:08:41,716 --> 00:08:45,476 Speaker 1: nourishes both the planet and people. So I don't think 152 00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:48,236 Speaker 1: this needs to be a vegan or non argument. In fact, 153 00:08:48,276 --> 00:08:50,636 Speaker 1: it makes more sense from that's real a cosmic perspective 154 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:54,436 Speaker 1: to be an omnivore. Insofar as you think there's some 155 00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:57,436 Speaker 1: evolutionary component to this, you know, it's probably not a 156 00:08:57,476 --> 00:09:01,276 Speaker 1: coincidence that humans have evolved to be omnivorous. Right, It's 157 00:09:01,276 --> 00:09:05,676 Speaker 1: not a that we can say, I think with some assuredness. 158 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:08,836 Speaker 1: But um, it's hard because if you're going to put 159 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 1: a layable on it that it's mystical or spiritual, then 160 00:09:12,276 --> 00:09:14,676 Speaker 1: it's difficult to make that argument. You kind of either 161 00:09:14,756 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 1: believe it or you don't. But if you're gonna put 162 00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:19,516 Speaker 1: a label on it, if you're gonna say it's not 163 00:09:19,596 --> 00:09:22,476 Speaker 1: a coincidence that what's good for the planet is good 164 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:25,716 Speaker 1: for the people who live on the planet, that doesn't 165 00:09:25,756 --> 00:09:28,076 Speaker 1: have to be a mystical or spiritual argument. That can 166 00:09:28,116 --> 00:09:30,836 Speaker 1: be a pragmatic argument. I just don't know that I'm 167 00:09:30,876 --> 00:09:34,596 Speaker 1: prepared to make it it's a great prefer the question. Well, 168 00:09:34,756 --> 00:09:39,196 Speaker 1: fine to say right exactly. Yeah, I think that it's true. 169 00:09:39,676 --> 00:09:43,836 Speaker 1: It is hard to believe it's a coincident, like it 170 00:09:43,876 --> 00:09:46,956 Speaker 1: just happens to be that way. I don't know that 171 00:09:46,996 --> 00:09:51,716 Speaker 1: anyone's made the argument that growing the plants that nourish 172 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:56,076 Speaker 1: your body are by necessity the plants that are good 173 00:09:56,076 --> 00:10:00,836 Speaker 1: for stewarding the land. And it is that way. But 174 00:10:01,356 --> 00:10:05,396 Speaker 1: it's not because of teleology or God or something but 175 00:10:05,516 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 1: it and it's not because of nature, because we're literally 176 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: talking about his culture, which originally is like the culture. 177 00:10:10,596 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 1: The word culture comes from agriculture. It's about growing stuff. 178 00:10:13,756 --> 00:10:16,036 Speaker 1: So it's a self conscious thing. It's not a hundred 179 00:10:16,036 --> 00:10:19,956 Speaker 1: gatherer picture. It's not a paleo diet account whereby the 180 00:10:20,036 --> 00:10:21,756 Speaker 1: things we really should eat would be just the things 181 00:10:21,756 --> 00:10:23,876 Speaker 1: that we happen to find, because if that were the case, 182 00:10:24,036 --> 00:10:26,556 Speaker 1: we really wouldn't be able to sustain anything like the 183 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:29,876 Speaker 1: global population that we do. We need to grow some stuff, Well, 184 00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:32,636 Speaker 1: we don't know that we are sustaining it, and we 185 00:10:32,676 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 1: do know that populations that are five thousand years old 186 00:10:36,596 --> 00:10:42,156 Speaker 1: have sustained themselves by doing more earth friendly forms of agriculture. 187 00:10:42,316 --> 00:10:45,116 Speaker 1: So the biggest and oldest populations in the world, which 188 00:10:45,116 --> 00:10:50,156 Speaker 1: are in Asia, eat mostly plants and always have and 189 00:10:50,196 --> 00:10:55,396 Speaker 1: have done agriculture that could be argued is sustainable. And 190 00:10:55,436 --> 00:10:58,636 Speaker 1: if something has proven itself over five thousand years. We're 191 00:10:58,676 --> 00:11:01,356 Speaker 1: talking about rice culture now, right, yeah, kind of kind 192 00:11:01,356 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 1: of but we culture too, but culture where there have 193 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:08,356 Speaker 1: been water challenges and weather challenges and challenges to the 194 00:11:08,396 --> 00:11:12,316 Speaker 1: civilization themselves, but that the food culture has been sustained. 195 00:11:12,356 --> 00:11:15,516 Speaker 1: There's no Western food culture that's been sustained for anything 196 00:11:15,556 --> 00:11:19,276 Speaker 1: like that period of time, and certainly not in North America. 197 00:11:19,396 --> 00:11:21,476 Speaker 1: I mean, everything that we've done in the last say, 198 00:11:21,476 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty two hundred years, is only that old. 199 00:11:26,276 --> 00:11:29,396 Speaker 1: That's how old it is. Yes, you can't call that sustainable, 200 00:11:29,476 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 1: even if at the moment it appears to be working. 201 00:11:31,676 --> 00:11:33,836 Speaker 1: It's not long enough to say, oh, yeah, this is 202 00:11:34,636 --> 00:11:38,836 Speaker 1: You know that it's funny to get into the kind 203 00:11:38,836 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 1: of philosophical or interesting to get into the kind of 204 00:11:42,236 --> 00:11:46,756 Speaker 1: philosophical side of things, because when people argue that industrial 205 00:11:46,796 --> 00:11:49,236 Speaker 1: agriculture is the way to do it, because how else 206 00:11:49,276 --> 00:11:51,436 Speaker 1: are we going to support them doing air quotes? How 207 00:11:51,476 --> 00:11:54,036 Speaker 1: else are we going to support ten billion people blah 208 00:11:54,076 --> 00:11:56,956 Speaker 1: blah blah, and that anything else is a pipe dream. 209 00:11:56,996 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 1: The pipe dream is to imagine that industrial agriculture is sustainable, 210 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:04,556 Speaker 1: because there's so much evidence that it isn't. And the 211 00:12:04,676 --> 00:12:07,716 Speaker 1: reality is to say, we need to make it better. 212 00:12:07,956 --> 00:12:10,436 Speaker 1: How do we make ag culture better? That's not a 213 00:12:10,436 --> 00:12:12,676 Speaker 1: pipe dream to say how do we make agriculture better? 214 00:12:12,676 --> 00:12:15,956 Speaker 1: It's a pipe dream to say we figured out agriculture. No, 215 00:12:16,076 --> 00:12:18,276 Speaker 1: we haven't. Quite the opposite. We figured out how to 216 00:12:18,316 --> 00:12:20,836 Speaker 1: erect the earth and how to cause a public health 217 00:12:20,876 --> 00:12:25,276 Speaker 1: crisis by force feeding people junk food. So what is 218 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:27,516 Speaker 1: the answer? You know, the answer is it has to 219 00:12:27,556 --> 00:12:30,916 Speaker 1: be better. The answer is it has to change. We'll 220 00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:42,716 Speaker 1: be back in just a moment. I want to ask 221 00:12:42,716 --> 00:12:47,396 Speaker 1: you about the process whereby food writers and then the 222 00:12:47,396 --> 00:12:50,076 Speaker 1: people who read them came to see the world in 223 00:12:50,076 --> 00:12:52,276 Speaker 1: the way that you're describing, came to care first. I 224 00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:54,916 Speaker 1: would say, probably in order, first about taste, then about health, 225 00:12:55,196 --> 00:12:58,836 Speaker 1: and then about sustainability and the world. And the reason 226 00:12:58,876 --> 00:13:00,196 Speaker 1: I want to ask about that is that I think 227 00:13:00,516 --> 00:13:04,276 Speaker 1: the answer may have something to do with a very 228 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:08,956 Speaker 1: particular elite, you know, upper middle class for lack of 229 00:13:08,956 --> 00:13:12,196 Speaker 1: a better term. You know New York Times reading, and 230 00:13:12,276 --> 00:13:14,876 Speaker 1: you know, I'm guilty as charged, you know, as as 231 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:18,756 Speaker 1: a reader and sometime contributor. And the reason I'm asking 232 00:13:18,796 --> 00:13:22,036 Speaker 1: this is, when the history of this is told, will 233 00:13:22,076 --> 00:13:25,156 Speaker 1: they say, you know that it was something about pretty 234 00:13:25,236 --> 00:13:28,716 Speaker 1: rich people who nevertheless had some or maybe because they 235 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:34,036 Speaker 1: had the money, were capable of thinking ethically that drove 236 00:13:34,156 --> 00:13:36,036 Speaker 1: this this kind of process. Because if that were true, 237 00:13:36,036 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a true story or a 238 00:13:37,396 --> 00:13:40,116 Speaker 1: fair story, but if it were a true story, it 239 00:13:40,156 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 1: does come from a certain kind of excess and excess 240 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:47,836 Speaker 1: of wealth and excess of you know, elite cultural position, 241 00:13:48,156 --> 00:13:51,036 Speaker 1: and then it comes to seem like good common sense 242 00:13:51,756 --> 00:13:54,116 Speaker 1: with you know, people like you functioning as kind of 243 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 1: the profits of the story, you know, the ones who 244 00:13:55,756 --> 00:13:58,796 Speaker 1: are who are telling this story and telling us, you know, 245 00:13:58,836 --> 00:14:00,956 Speaker 1: what we ought to believe. And then it's not a 246 00:14:00,996 --> 00:14:02,796 Speaker 1: coincidence that you start by telling us what we ought 247 00:14:02,796 --> 00:14:04,956 Speaker 1: to eat because it tastes good, and then you move 248 00:14:05,196 --> 00:14:07,716 Speaker 1: through that to telling us what to eat in order 249 00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:10,676 Speaker 1: to make the world a better place. You know, there 250 00:14:10,676 --> 00:14:13,076 Speaker 1: are many other factors that you haven't mentioned, but I 251 00:14:13,116 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 1: think one thing you're overlooking in this story is that 252 00:14:17,676 --> 00:14:20,636 Speaker 1: let's say one third of the world has been eating 253 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:25,196 Speaker 1: according to the tenets of sustainability forever, and they're not 254 00:14:25,476 --> 00:14:28,756 Speaker 1: New York Times readers, and they're not white elites. But 255 00:14:28,836 --> 00:14:30,236 Speaker 1: they may not have been doing it in order for 256 00:14:30,276 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 1: it to be sustainable. They may just have been doing 257 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:35,836 Speaker 1: it because it worked for them. Come on, that's not sustainability. 258 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 1: I mean it worked for them for five thousand years. Yeah, 259 00:14:38,236 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 1: but people don't always I mean, just to push back 260 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:41,356 Speaker 1: a little bit, I mean, I hear what you're saying, 261 00:14:41,356 --> 00:14:44,356 Speaker 1: but people don't always do something because they know that 262 00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 1: it's always worked. I mean they people do things on 263 00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 1: a daily basis for all kinds of ordinary reasons. Sometimes 264 00:14:49,476 --> 00:14:51,956 Speaker 1: failing to change something that's people. You know, take some 265 00:14:51,996 --> 00:14:54,796 Speaker 1: oppressive structure that we've that's been around for five thousand years, 266 00:14:54,836 --> 00:14:56,956 Speaker 1: I don't know, sexism or something like that, people say, well, 267 00:14:56,996 --> 00:14:58,676 Speaker 1: we always have done it this way, so we stick 268 00:14:58,716 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 1: with it. And then a critic wants to say, yeah, 269 00:15:00,636 --> 00:15:02,636 Speaker 1: but you know, you think that works, but it doesn't 270 00:15:02,676 --> 00:15:04,676 Speaker 1: work for half the people, and so, you know, I 271 00:15:04,716 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 1: don't want to jump to the conclusion that the antiquity 272 00:15:07,436 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 1: of a practice shows that it's necessarily a good one. Well, 273 00:15:11,116 --> 00:15:17,036 Speaker 1: except when people switch from traditional diets to contemporary Western 274 00:15:17,076 --> 00:15:20,516 Speaker 1: diets they get chronic disease. Yes, there's no question that 275 00:15:21,036 --> 00:15:24,516 Speaker 1: is the truth. So I think that it's arguable and 276 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:30,676 Speaker 1: demonstrable that traditional diets work and that we're not discovering 277 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:33,556 Speaker 1: anything new here when we're saying eat a diet that's 278 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 1: heavy in plants and light in anything else. What we 279 00:15:36,436 --> 00:15:39,156 Speaker 1: have done that's new is in the last one hundred, 280 00:15:39,196 --> 00:15:41,156 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty years, is invent a bunch of 281 00:15:41,156 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 1: food that makes people sick that didn't even exist before that. 282 00:15:45,116 --> 00:15:49,796 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think maybe it takes public intellectuals or whatever. 283 00:15:49,836 --> 00:15:52,596 Speaker 1: The shortcut version of what you said before is to 284 00:15:52,716 --> 00:15:55,276 Speaker 1: recognize that first, a lot of it is an academic 285 00:15:55,316 --> 00:15:59,716 Speaker 1: comes out of academia. But the marketing of that junk 286 00:15:59,836 --> 00:16:06,356 Speaker 1: food targets everyone, but it targets less well off people disproportionately, 287 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:11,436 Speaker 1: and it targets everyone to the extent that it can, 288 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 1: and it targets us so well that it's almost as 289 00:16:15,756 --> 00:16:18,116 Speaker 1: if there's no choice but to eat junk food. So 290 00:16:18,236 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 1: rebelling against that or recognizing that is not easy, and 291 00:16:23,796 --> 00:16:26,476 Speaker 1: many people are just simply too busy you know, they're 292 00:16:26,516 --> 00:16:28,756 Speaker 1: just like trying to get some food. And there's a 293 00:16:28,796 --> 00:16:31,556 Speaker 1: wealth and a class element obviously there as well. It's 294 00:16:31,636 --> 00:16:33,516 Speaker 1: you have to live in a neighborhood where there are 295 00:16:33,556 --> 00:16:35,676 Speaker 1: shops that's self fresh food. You have to be able 296 00:16:35,676 --> 00:16:37,516 Speaker 1: to afford to buy them. Although of course ideally it 297 00:16:37,556 --> 00:16:39,716 Speaker 1: would be just as affordable as other food, but it 298 00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:42,396 Speaker 1: isn't at the moment. You have to have the time 299 00:16:42,436 --> 00:16:44,396 Speaker 1: to actually put the food on the table. And I 300 00:16:44,436 --> 00:16:46,796 Speaker 1: recognize that lots of people who have free time to 301 00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:48,796 Speaker 1: say they don't when they really do. But on the 302 00:16:48,796 --> 00:16:50,596 Speaker 1: other hand, there are people who are working two or 303 00:16:50,636 --> 00:16:53,716 Speaker 1: three jobs and are genuinely at the margins economically who 304 00:16:53,796 --> 00:16:56,596 Speaker 1: really don't have the time. Right I used to say, 305 00:16:56,636 --> 00:17:00,316 Speaker 1: I used to argue that people everybody should cook, and 306 00:17:00,396 --> 00:17:03,436 Speaker 1: that it was ironic that people would watch cooking on 307 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:06,676 Speaker 1: television and say they didn't have time to cook at home. Yes, 308 00:17:07,116 --> 00:17:10,796 Speaker 1: but there are so many people who have transportation challenges 309 00:17:10,836 --> 00:17:14,316 Speaker 1: and two job challenges and scheduling challenges and childcare issues 310 00:17:14,316 --> 00:17:16,596 Speaker 1: and da da da dada, on and on and on. 311 00:17:17,556 --> 00:17:19,756 Speaker 1: I don't think it's right to say that anymore. I 312 00:17:19,836 --> 00:17:22,836 Speaker 1: probably wasn't right to say it in the first place. Um, 313 00:17:23,036 --> 00:17:25,876 Speaker 1: although it's a good line, and it's a great line, 314 00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:28,596 Speaker 1: and it's and there are people who watch TV instead 315 00:17:28,596 --> 00:17:33,556 Speaker 1: of cooking. I mean, maybe they're exhausted, pistending about exercise. 316 00:17:33,556 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 1: You know, if you're watching sports on television, why an't 317 00:17:35,356 --> 00:17:37,796 Speaker 1: you out there working out? And right that in theory 318 00:17:37,836 --> 00:17:41,076 Speaker 1: that makes good sense. People's realities are are complicated, right, 319 00:17:41,476 --> 00:17:44,196 Speaker 1: I think the real the real issue here, the real 320 00:17:44,996 --> 00:17:49,476 Speaker 1: I don't think the real tragedy is that junk food 321 00:17:49,516 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 1: marketers target everybody and they're very, very sophisticated. That kind 322 00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:59,476 Speaker 1: of marketing, which is scientific and algorithmic and way beyond 323 00:17:59,676 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 1: my understanding at least, you know, gets us to eat 324 00:18:02,596 --> 00:18:06,396 Speaker 1: all kinds of things that we know we shouldn't be eating, 325 00:18:06,436 --> 00:18:09,636 Speaker 1: and there's there's no question about whether we should be 326 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:12,716 Speaker 1: eating them the way quantities we are. And everyone has 327 00:18:12,756 --> 00:18:15,356 Speaker 1: that experience. Everyone has the experience of looking at some 328 00:18:15,516 --> 00:18:17,636 Speaker 1: piece of junk food and thinking, I know, I'm not 329 00:18:17,676 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 1: supposed to eat that, and then eating it. Right, probably 330 00:18:20,116 --> 00:18:25,436 Speaker 1: even Gwyneth Paltrow sometimes. But the point is that I 331 00:18:25,436 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 1: don't think that that's the thing that doesn't get talked about. 332 00:18:29,196 --> 00:18:30,996 Speaker 1: It gets talked about a lot, but it doesn't get 333 00:18:31,036 --> 00:18:33,716 Speaker 1: talked about enough because that is the thing that's wrecking 334 00:18:33,796 --> 00:18:36,716 Speaker 1: both our health and the health of the planet. So 335 00:18:36,876 --> 00:18:39,836 Speaker 1: one solution to that is regulation, and I went to it. 336 00:18:39,876 --> 00:18:42,076 Speaker 1: I'm down with that. Yeah. And when Mike Bloomberg was 337 00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:45,036 Speaker 1: mayor of New York, he went big time into some 338 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:47,476 Speaker 1: versions of that. I mean, I suppose from some perspective 339 00:18:47,476 --> 00:18:49,756 Speaker 1: they were pretty modest. You know, you can't buy soda 340 00:18:49,836 --> 00:18:53,356 Speaker 1: in a fort. You know, he tried to get a 341 00:18:53,396 --> 00:18:56,596 Speaker 1: soda taxs past and fail and so so, but that 342 00:18:56,716 --> 00:18:59,076 Speaker 1: was a backup plan. And you know, there was some 343 00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:03,276 Speaker 1: backlash to the Bloomberg approach. You know, people talked about 344 00:19:03,356 --> 00:19:06,196 Speaker 1: the nanny state or the nanny mayor. That's something that 345 00:19:06,476 --> 00:19:08,516 Speaker 1: may or may not follow him, you know, in his 346 00:19:08,556 --> 00:19:12,116 Speaker 1: political future. How do you think about the possibilities, the 347 00:19:12,236 --> 00:19:14,876 Speaker 1: real world possibilities of the kind of regulation that might 348 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:17,636 Speaker 1: be necessary to deal with the big corporations, because, as 349 00:19:17,636 --> 00:19:19,636 Speaker 1: you point out, it's not enough just to educate people, 350 00:19:19,716 --> 00:19:22,036 Speaker 1: because not withstand the education, there are all these other 351 00:19:22,036 --> 00:19:25,116 Speaker 1: pressures on us. I mean, you're asking me to predict 352 00:19:25,196 --> 00:19:31,356 Speaker 1: the winner of the twenty twenty election, because you're not 353 00:19:31,396 --> 00:19:33,756 Speaker 1: going to make progress when you have a president who's 354 00:19:33,756 --> 00:19:36,916 Speaker 1: trying to dismantle the EPA and every other progressive or 355 00:19:36,996 --> 00:19:40,756 Speaker 1: potentially progressive arm of government. So we are at the 356 00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:44,796 Speaker 1: point where we're trying to defend regulations that exist. Well, 357 00:19:44,916 --> 00:19:46,756 Speaker 1: let me ask a simpler question that, or maybe it's simpler. 358 00:19:46,796 --> 00:19:49,676 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that disclosure regulations of the 359 00:19:49,756 --> 00:19:52,156 Speaker 1: kind that require you know, chain restaurants to list the 360 00:19:52,236 --> 00:19:54,276 Speaker 1: number of calories and their dishes and things like that 361 00:19:54,636 --> 00:19:57,196 Speaker 1: are I mean, there's some data suggesting that they have 362 00:19:57,236 --> 00:19:58,836 Speaker 1: some effect at the margin, So I'm not asking you 363 00:19:58,836 --> 00:20:00,876 Speaker 1: about the data. What I'm asking is whether, at an 364 00:20:00,876 --> 00:20:02,996 Speaker 1: instinctive level, you think, yeah, you know, if we do 365 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:06,316 Speaker 1: a whole lot more labeling will be much better off, 366 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:08,876 Speaker 1: or if your instinct is no, labeling is not going 367 00:20:08,916 --> 00:20:11,516 Speaker 1: to be enough to go against the kind of sophisticated marketing. 368 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:15,316 Speaker 1: What we need is some actual legal rules that say, 369 00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:18,156 Speaker 1: you know, certain kinds of food can't be sold to kids, 370 00:20:18,236 --> 00:20:20,436 Speaker 1: or can't be sold in certain packaging, or can't be 371 00:20:20,476 --> 00:20:22,676 Speaker 1: advertising in a certain way, which is what we've done 372 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:25,516 Speaker 1: with tobacco. I guess I think the answer is both. 373 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:29,476 Speaker 1: I think that there's that incremental change is necessary at 374 00:20:29,476 --> 00:20:32,916 Speaker 1: this point, even if it's just symbolic or representative. And 375 00:20:32,956 --> 00:20:36,276 Speaker 1: I think food labeling, putting calories on, I mean, there 376 00:20:36,356 --> 00:20:38,236 Speaker 1: is some data that says that it's useful, but it's 377 00:20:38,236 --> 00:20:42,516 Speaker 1: certainly not revolutionary. But if you say more information is better, 378 00:20:42,796 --> 00:20:46,236 Speaker 1: more truth is better, more actual truth is better. And 379 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:48,996 Speaker 1: we're starting by saying, you know, a whopper has a 380 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 1: thousand calories or whatever, and you might want to know 381 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:55,476 Speaker 1: that that's something when you get to real transparency, when 382 00:20:55,516 --> 00:20:58,556 Speaker 1: you can say we're going to have video cameras everywhere 383 00:20:58,636 --> 00:21:01,876 Speaker 1: that that animals are confined, and we're going to show 384 00:21:01,916 --> 00:21:05,156 Speaker 1: you on a minute to minute basis. You want to 385 00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:08,996 Speaker 1: know where this burger is from. Here's how you can trace. 386 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:12,396 Speaker 1: I mean that's doable. We can trace the history of 387 00:21:12,516 --> 00:21:14,876 Speaker 1: any any piece of food you like. You can see 388 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:17,836 Speaker 1: where it's from, how it's raised, how it was processed, 389 00:21:17,836 --> 00:21:21,836 Speaker 1: and so on. That I think will help change consciousness. 390 00:21:21,876 --> 00:21:25,556 Speaker 1: But I think some form of recognizing that sugar is 391 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:28,716 Speaker 1: the tobacco of the twenty first century, that junk food 392 00:21:28,796 --> 00:21:33,196 Speaker 1: is damaging our health, and that government's job is to 393 00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:36,276 Speaker 1: protect the public health, and to recognize that just like 394 00:21:36,316 --> 00:21:40,796 Speaker 1: government's job is to recognize that vaccines are public health tools. 395 00:21:41,516 --> 00:21:45,876 Speaker 1: If people don't think that, that's really unfortunate. But they're wrong. 396 00:21:46,156 --> 00:21:49,636 Speaker 1: So now what do you want government to be about. Well, 397 00:21:49,676 --> 00:21:51,596 Speaker 1: in facts, the case of vaccine, though, at least to 398 00:21:51,636 --> 00:21:53,676 Speaker 1: my mind, is a pretty clear case where the law 399 00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:55,676 Speaker 1: ought to dictate. Part of the reason for that is 400 00:21:55,716 --> 00:21:59,196 Speaker 1: that they're such a big spillover effect on everybody else 401 00:21:59,596 --> 00:22:03,076 Speaker 1: if I don't vaccinate my kids, So, you know, without 402 00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:06,996 Speaker 1: talking about the case of the genuine religious objector you know, 403 00:22:07,116 --> 00:22:09,556 Speaker 1: the core case of you know, the person who's it's like, well, 404 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:10,956 Speaker 1: I just don't want to do that. I think it's 405 00:22:10,956 --> 00:22:14,036 Speaker 1: probably not healthy. I myself am very comfortable saying the 406 00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:16,796 Speaker 1: law should mandate that. It's a teeny bit harder to 407 00:22:16,836 --> 00:22:20,356 Speaker 1: say that in the case of sugar, because although bad 408 00:22:20,396 --> 00:22:23,756 Speaker 1: eating has spillover effects in the sense that I need 409 00:22:23,796 --> 00:22:25,596 Speaker 1: more healthcare and then other people have to help pay 410 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:28,556 Speaker 1: for that healthcare, it doesn't have the same insignificant which 411 00:22:28,556 --> 00:22:30,636 Speaker 1: is not insignificant, but it doesn't have quite the same 412 00:22:30,716 --> 00:22:35,916 Speaker 1: immediate spillover effects as non vaccination. I mean, there's no 413 00:22:36,036 --> 00:22:39,556 Speaker 1: argument you're eating yourself to death is not going to 414 00:22:39,676 --> 00:22:42,236 Speaker 1: kill me, but it is going to inconvenience me. And 415 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:46,556 Speaker 1: there's a spectrum here. So you start with vaccines, you 416 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:50,516 Speaker 1: move to tobacco, which has the second hand smoke arguments, suppose, 417 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:54,796 Speaker 1: and then you say, well, your ability to drink ten 418 00:22:54,876 --> 00:22:58,756 Speaker 1: cans of coca day or whatever actually does or may 419 00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:03,236 Speaker 1: affect my children's health because my children can't think about 420 00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:06,796 Speaker 1: this stuff in a way of supposedly thoughtful grown up can. 421 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:12,436 Speaker 1: And by keeping the mark getting of coke, for example, unlimited, 422 00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:15,956 Speaker 1: by not joining sides and trying to rein in the 423 00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:19,556 Speaker 1: rapacious marketing of people who are trying to sell sugar 424 00:23:19,596 --> 00:23:23,716 Speaker 1: sweetened beverages to everybody all the time, you're threatening the 425 00:23:23,796 --> 00:23:26,876 Speaker 1: life of my children, for example. Sure, and I you 426 00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:30,716 Speaker 1: know the argument it's wearing your arm ends where your 427 00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:33,156 Speaker 1: fist meets my face kind of thing. Yeah, well, I 428 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:34,916 Speaker 1: mean it's it's appropriate that you that you mentioned that 429 00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:37,796 Speaker 1: adage because that's also where you hit the real objection 430 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:41,236 Speaker 1: from libertarians, you know, where they say, well, we have 431 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:43,236 Speaker 1: to draw the line somewhere, and that line is at 432 00:23:43,276 --> 00:23:48,556 Speaker 1: my chin, you know, and this is only metaphorically affecting 433 00:23:48,876 --> 00:23:51,876 Speaker 1: you know, me or my kids. And I think you 434 00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:53,676 Speaker 1: also have to add to that the kind of often 435 00:23:53,836 --> 00:23:57,756 Speaker 1: class based reaction that says, look, I have few enough 436 00:23:57,796 --> 00:24:00,596 Speaker 1: pleasures in my life, and you really want to take 437 00:24:00,596 --> 00:24:03,556 Speaker 1: away from me this the pleasure of having this coke. 438 00:24:04,236 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 1: And you know, then the educated person quote unquote says, well, 439 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:10,716 Speaker 1: you don't understand. You only like that coke because the 440 00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:14,756 Speaker 1: marketing has made your brain like that coke. And that's 441 00:24:14,796 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 1: about the point where in the ordinary person might want 442 00:24:16,596 --> 00:24:20,436 Speaker 1: to punch you, you know, you know well, but can't 443 00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:23,596 Speaker 1: because the libertarianism. Right, But you see what I'm saying. 444 00:24:23,596 --> 00:24:25,516 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I do think there is a 445 00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:28,876 Speaker 1: kind of instinct to say. One of the things that's 446 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:32,716 Speaker 1: wrong in our society is that educated people think they 447 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:37,316 Speaker 1: know what's best for us. And you know, I'm going 448 00:24:37,356 --> 00:24:39,476 Speaker 1: to make my own decisions, and don't tell me that 449 00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:41,956 Speaker 1: I only have these decisions because I'm deluded into it 450 00:24:42,156 --> 00:24:45,596 Speaker 1: by corporate advertising. Well, even though you and I may think, yeah, 451 00:24:45,636 --> 00:24:48,676 Speaker 1: you are, yeah, But also if you say I don't 452 00:24:48,676 --> 00:24:52,076 Speaker 1: want educated people to make decisions that affect me, you're 453 00:24:52,076 --> 00:24:56,156 Speaker 1: sort of implying that you want uneducated people to democracy. Right, 454 00:24:56,236 --> 00:24:59,396 Speaker 1: That is called democracy and educated people. But if they're 455 00:24:59,396 --> 00:25:01,796 Speaker 1: more uneducated people, they make the decision. That's right, and 456 00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 1: that's the position we're in now. And that's why when 457 00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:06,716 Speaker 1: you started this conversation and said you're asking me to 458 00:25:06,756 --> 00:25:09,676 Speaker 1: predict the winner of the twenty twenty election, because yeah, 459 00:25:10,156 --> 00:25:14,876 Speaker 1: you know, our food habits and desires are formed at 460 00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:17,996 Speaker 1: a really young age. If we don't take control over 461 00:25:18,036 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 1: what our children see and eat when it comes to food, 462 00:25:22,316 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 1: what they see in how they're marketed to and what 463 00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:27,956 Speaker 1: they wind up eating as a result of that, if 464 00:25:27,996 --> 00:25:30,716 Speaker 1: we don't have some kind of intervention in that arena, 465 00:25:30,836 --> 00:25:33,516 Speaker 1: we are going to have generation after generation after generation 466 00:25:33,836 --> 00:25:37,676 Speaker 1: of unhealthy adults. Because we all know how hard it 467 00:25:37,756 --> 00:25:40,076 Speaker 1: is to change are you said it before? We all 468 00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 1: want to eat a whopper now, and then we all 469 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 1: know how hard it is to change the way the 470 00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:47,436 Speaker 1: way that we eat. And that's because when we were 471 00:25:47,476 --> 00:25:50,756 Speaker 1: four years old, or now even two years old, we 472 00:25:50,756 --> 00:25:55,596 Speaker 1: were being bottle fed kool aid, or you know, encouraged 473 00:25:55,636 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 1: to drink coke or to eat candy or sweeten the 474 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:02,876 Speaker 1: breakfast cereal and obvious one and so on. I don't 475 00:26:02,916 --> 00:26:05,356 Speaker 1: think you can make that stuff illegal, certainly not in 476 00:26:05,396 --> 00:26:07,876 Speaker 1: the current climate, but you can rein it in a 477 00:26:07,916 --> 00:26:10,356 Speaker 1: little bit I think let's talk a little bit, if 478 00:26:10,356 --> 00:26:13,276 Speaker 1: we could, about cooking as a discipline, either a self 479 00:26:13,276 --> 00:26:16,796 Speaker 1: discipline or a pleasurable activity, or some combination of those things. 480 00:26:16,836 --> 00:26:20,396 Speaker 1: So you've just reissued the twentieth edition right of the 481 00:26:20,476 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 1: wonderfully named How to Cook Everything, And I presume that 482 00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:28,236 Speaker 1: your own thinking about what it means to cook has 483 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:32,556 Speaker 1: changed from the time that you wrote that book until today. 484 00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 1: If so, maybe I'm wrong, Maybe it hasn't changed. Do 485 00:26:37,236 --> 00:26:39,836 Speaker 1: you think about the purpose of cooking the same way 486 00:26:39,956 --> 00:26:44,076 Speaker 1: now as you did that I'm so much less obsessive 487 00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:47,196 Speaker 1: about it and so much more easy going about it. 488 00:26:47,236 --> 00:26:50,876 Speaker 1: And people still seem to like the food that I'm 489 00:26:50,916 --> 00:26:53,716 Speaker 1: not even talking about the books. The books speak for themselves, 490 00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:57,236 Speaker 1: But when friends come to my house or I cook 491 00:26:57,316 --> 00:27:00,356 Speaker 1: somewhere else, people still seem to think. I know what 492 00:27:00,396 --> 00:27:03,396 Speaker 1: I'm doing and the food is good, and I think 493 00:27:03,396 --> 00:27:06,916 Speaker 1: it's pretty good, but it's not sweated over, it's not 494 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:10,596 Speaker 1: obsessed about. And I used to do that, and then 495 00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:13,716 Speaker 1: I realized people love it when you cook for them. 496 00:27:13,876 --> 00:27:16,116 Speaker 1: They're so happy that you that you're cooking for them. 497 00:27:16,156 --> 00:27:20,236 Speaker 1: They're so grateful. Everybody loves to have someone say I'll 498 00:27:20,276 --> 00:27:23,356 Speaker 1: cook for you, Yes, so this the bar is not 499 00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 1: that high. But you know you're cooking for somebody, you 500 00:27:26,676 --> 00:27:29,516 Speaker 1: already have the benefit of the doubt. And the fact 501 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:31,156 Speaker 1: is that most of the food out in the world 502 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:33,596 Speaker 1: is so bad that when you are cooking for your 503 00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:36,316 Speaker 1: friends or your family or whatever, you're usually producing stuff 504 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:40,596 Speaker 1: that's much much better than what they're getting for lunch 505 00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:43,516 Speaker 1: or dinner days that they're not being cooked for or 506 00:27:43,596 --> 00:27:46,596 Speaker 1: not cooking themselves. So I think I'm more laid back 507 00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:50,556 Speaker 1: about it. Did you originally have some of the the 508 00:27:50,716 --> 00:27:54,156 Speaker 1: artisans or the artists love of the undertaking or was 509 00:27:54,196 --> 00:27:57,876 Speaker 1: your view always some version of the important thing is 510 00:27:57,916 --> 00:28:00,676 Speaker 1: that you're taking some kind of fresh ingredients that and 511 00:28:00,876 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 1: cooking them. Well, I think at the beginning, I really 512 00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 1: like I still really like steep learning curves. So at 513 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:10,756 Speaker 1: the beginning I knew nothing. So I could make a 514 00:28:10,796 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 1: boiled lobster or or some French fries or a whitebread 515 00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:17,596 Speaker 1: of the kind that I wouldn't even consider eating, let 516 00:28:17,636 --> 00:28:22,356 Speaker 1: alone making now and be ecstatic yes at the craft 517 00:28:22,396 --> 00:28:25,276 Speaker 1: of doing it. Yes, but I kind of know the 518 00:28:25,356 --> 00:28:27,796 Speaker 1: craft now. I mean I'm not. And you've also done 519 00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:30,316 Speaker 1: a lot to teach people some basic techniques. I mean, 520 00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:32,356 Speaker 1: to me, that was the most transformative aspect of your 521 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:35,076 Speaker 1: whole approach. And that's how I think had a huge 522 00:28:35,076 --> 00:28:38,116 Speaker 1: influence on many other food writers and on many other cookbooks. 523 00:28:38,236 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 1: And forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you 524 00:28:40,076 --> 00:28:41,956 Speaker 1: might have been the first person to sort of present 525 00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:43,636 Speaker 1: it to the reader in that way. You know, learn 526 00:28:43,756 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 1: this suite of techniques, which isn't actually that enormous. It'll 527 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:49,476 Speaker 1: take you a long time to get good at them. 528 00:28:49,676 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 1: But if you get competent in these suite of techniques, 529 00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:55,116 Speaker 1: you can kind of cook. Yeah, I can think of 530 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:57,196 Speaker 1: people who did that before me, but you know, I 531 00:28:57,316 --> 00:28:59,796 Speaker 1: was the first person to do it after a while 532 00:28:59,836 --> 00:29:02,356 Speaker 1: of no one having done it, So fair enough, that's 533 00:29:02,396 --> 00:29:05,876 Speaker 1: good enough. It feels that way, and I was adamant 534 00:29:05,876 --> 00:29:08,516 Speaker 1: about doing it that way, and all my books look 535 00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:12,796 Speaker 1: like that, and so it's my style. And I'm happy 536 00:29:12,836 --> 00:29:16,516 Speaker 1: about that last question. And I'm really grateful for your time. 537 00:29:17,556 --> 00:29:20,596 Speaker 1: When you think about, you know, what an addition of 538 00:29:21,516 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: how to cook everything would look like if you did 539 00:29:23,756 --> 00:29:26,596 Speaker 1: it again in ten years or even twenty, how do 540 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:29,756 Speaker 1: you imagine it evolving in the future. Well, I mean, 541 00:29:29,836 --> 00:29:33,556 Speaker 1: if you there have been three editions of Had Everything, 542 00:29:33,876 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 1: the first yellow one and then a red one, and 543 00:29:35,756 --> 00:29:39,196 Speaker 1: then the second pale or yellow one. And a lot 544 00:29:39,196 --> 00:29:42,916 Speaker 1: of the changes are cosmetic. That is, people wanted photographs 545 00:29:42,916 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 1: from the beginning, so now we have photographs, and we 546 00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:49,716 Speaker 1: have more charts, and we have more graphics. I mean, 547 00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:53,676 Speaker 1: it's a more interesting book all around. But the biggest 548 00:29:53,796 --> 00:29:56,716 Speaker 1: change is that there's less meat and more plants. And 549 00:29:56,876 --> 00:29:59,116 Speaker 1: I think that in ten years there'll be less meat 550 00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:01,556 Speaker 1: still and more plants still. And I think in twenty 551 00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:05,356 Speaker 1: years the same. I think that I think the world 552 00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:07,316 Speaker 1: will follow you. It won't just be your movement there. 553 00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:11,516 Speaker 1: I'm following. I'm not setting trends. I'm following trends or 554 00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:14,436 Speaker 1: I'm seeing trends. I don't. This is not me. I mean, 555 00:30:14,476 --> 00:30:18,036 Speaker 1: of course, there's there's a given take, right, there's a 556 00:30:18,076 --> 00:30:22,636 Speaker 1: boomerang effect or whatever. But I think I'm representing what's happening. 557 00:30:22,676 --> 00:30:25,956 Speaker 1: I speak to crowds all the time, and I always 558 00:30:25,996 --> 00:30:29,876 Speaker 1: ask who here is eating less meat than they were 559 00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:33,556 Speaker 1: ten years ago. And there's a few cantankerous people who 560 00:30:33,556 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 1: want to prove their independence who don't raise their hands, 561 00:30:36,076 --> 00:30:39,236 Speaker 1: but everybody raises their hands. Everybody's eating less meat than 562 00:30:39,276 --> 00:30:42,556 Speaker 1: they were ten years ago, and that's true in every 563 00:30:42,636 --> 00:30:45,116 Speaker 1: audience I go to. More than ninety percent of people 564 00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:48,796 Speaker 1: raise their hands. I don't know, so I'm asking you 565 00:30:48,836 --> 00:30:52,596 Speaker 1: because you might are their bigger picture of statistics supporting that, 566 00:30:52,716 --> 00:30:54,236 Speaker 1: or is that like people who are buying your books 567 00:30:54,236 --> 00:30:56,796 Speaker 1: and coming to listen to you. Well, I think there's 568 00:30:56,916 --> 00:30:58,956 Speaker 1: very much of us speaking to the preaching to the 569 00:30:59,076 --> 00:31:01,636 Speaker 1: choir aspect of this, for sure. But you know the 570 00:31:01,716 --> 00:31:04,836 Speaker 1: fact that and it's a whole separate conversation about the 571 00:31:04,916 --> 00:31:08,436 Speaker 1: fact that Burger King is selling a vegan burger I 572 00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:11,076 Speaker 1: think I think speaks to that too. I think people 573 00:31:11,076 --> 00:31:15,756 Speaker 1: are looking for ways around eating meat. The fact that 574 00:31:15,796 --> 00:31:19,596 Speaker 1: they are readily changing through a different form of junk food, 575 00:31:19,676 --> 00:31:23,476 Speaker 1: as in the impossible burger is maybe a good thing 576 00:31:23,516 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 1: and maybe not. It's very complicated. Might be bad for them, 577 00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:29,796 Speaker 1: but good for the world. Satisfy one of our central goals, 578 00:31:29,796 --> 00:31:31,276 Speaker 1: but not one of the others. Right, But they could 579 00:31:31,276 --> 00:31:34,796 Speaker 1: be eating falafel and be good all around in a way. 580 00:31:34,836 --> 00:31:37,636 Speaker 1: It's just that no one's about their marketing falafel in 581 00:31:37,716 --> 00:31:41,236 Speaker 1: that way. Well, there you go, there's your business. Opportunity. Yeah, 582 00:31:41,276 --> 00:31:43,796 Speaker 1: I might be working on it, except I'm not so, 583 00:31:45,636 --> 00:31:49,316 Speaker 1: thank you very much. Yeah, it was fun. The conversation 584 00:31:49,316 --> 00:31:51,876 Speaker 1: I had with Mark was really eye opening, at least 585 00:31:51,876 --> 00:31:54,956 Speaker 1: for me, and thinking about the changes in how we 586 00:31:55,076 --> 00:31:57,996 Speaker 1: interact with the whole topic of food. I think we're 587 00:31:57,996 --> 00:31:59,916 Speaker 1: going to have a lot more opportunity to reflect on 588 00:31:59,996 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 1: that in the days and weeks ahead. I'm certainly looking 589 00:32:03,076 --> 00:32:05,956 Speaker 1: at what's in my refrigerator very differently than I was 590 00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:08,556 Speaker 1: before the coronavirus. Not only is there a lot more 591 00:32:08,596 --> 00:32:10,836 Speaker 1: of it, had to be really mindful about choosing what 592 00:32:10,876 --> 00:32:12,756 Speaker 1: was going to go in there, what could be frozen, 593 00:32:12,836 --> 00:32:15,156 Speaker 1: what could be preserved, what would be good, how I 594 00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:18,076 Speaker 1: get fresh vegetables. And we also have to think much 595 00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:21,036 Speaker 1: more seriously than usual about the supply chain of how 596 00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 1: food gets onto our tables. After all, in a world 597 00:32:24,316 --> 00:32:27,476 Speaker 1: where we're all social distancing, real human beings have to 598 00:32:27,476 --> 00:32:30,556 Speaker 1: be out there doing their jobs full time and taking 599 00:32:30,556 --> 00:32:33,316 Speaker 1: on the corona risk just in order to get food 600 00:32:33,516 --> 00:32:37,756 Speaker 1: continuing to come to us. The centrality and importance of 601 00:32:37,796 --> 00:32:41,756 Speaker 1: food workers has never been clearer in my lifetime. If 602 00:32:41,796 --> 00:32:44,276 Speaker 1: you're at home practicing social distancing the way most of 603 00:32:44,356 --> 00:32:47,116 Speaker 1: us are advised to do. Good luck with it. I 604 00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:49,436 Speaker 1: hope you're managing. I hope the food on your table 605 00:32:49,596 --> 00:32:52,676 Speaker 1: is tasty. If you're out there doing your job trying 606 00:32:52,676 --> 00:32:54,676 Speaker 1: to enable the rest of us to stay home and 607 00:32:54,716 --> 00:32:59,596 Speaker 1: stay safe, please accept my thanks and all of our appreciation. 608 00:33:01,436 --> 00:33:04,636 Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 609 00:33:04,676 --> 00:33:08,116 Speaker 1: producer is Lydia gene Cott, with studio recording by Joseph 610 00:33:08,156 --> 00:33:12,716 Speaker 1: Fridman and mastering by Jason Gambrell and Martin Gonzalez. Our 611 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:16,276 Speaker 1: showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed by 612 00:33:16,356 --> 00:33:20,396 Speaker 1: Luis GERA special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Godwell, 613 00:33:20,556 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. I also 614 00:33:24,596 --> 00:33:27,156 Speaker 1: write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find 615 00:33:27,156 --> 00:33:31,716 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com Backslash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original 616 00:33:31,796 --> 00:33:35,916 Speaker 1: slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com Backslash Podcasts. 617 00:33:36,276 --> 00:33:38,996 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. 618 00:33:39,436 --> 00:33:41,076 Speaker 1: This is Deep Background.