WEBVTT - All-Out War on Democracy

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with

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<v Speaker 1>Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know about you, but things are becoming increasingly

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<v Speaker 1>trying to discuss as Republicans are waging an all out

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<v Speaker 1>war on democracy from Alabama to Tennessee to Florida to

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<v Speaker 1>Texas to Wisconsin. They literally are doing what Steve Bannon

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<v Speaker 1>had said right village by village, city by city, state

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<v Speaker 1>by state, plucking people's rights and votes from them. And

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<v Speaker 1>I get into a conversation today with our friend Jonathan

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<v Speaker 1>Metzel about democratic messaging and what we are getting wrong

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, this is where Jonathan and I disagree,

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<v Speaker 1>which is that I am not for the handholding. I

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<v Speaker 1>am not for the what ails you when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to Republicans, I don't give a fuck, right Like, I

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<v Speaker 1>really just don't. I have zero, zero fucks to give.

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<v Speaker 1>And at the same time, I am trying to understand

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<v Speaker 1>what is it going to take to get people in

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<v Speaker 1>this country activated? And when I say activated, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>in the fucking streets. What is it going to take?

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<v Speaker 1>Because if it isn't, what is happening in Alibi with

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<v Speaker 1>denying women and people with uteruses the ability to travel

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<v Speaker 1>freely out of state if it isn't what is happening

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<v Speaker 1>in Texas, which is making it illegal to transport pregnant

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<v Speaker 1>people on highways, which, by the way, just so you

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<v Speaker 1>know that for those seeking an abortion around twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 1>four weeks, you're not fucking showing. So what are these

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<v Speaker 1>state troopers doing? Just pulling over women, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>people they perceive to be women, Like I don't you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Like how long is it going to be until it

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<v Speaker 1>is mandatory for people with uteruses in these states to

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<v Speaker 1>have to enter in their menstrual cycle into a government database.

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<v Speaker 1>And you all be like, oh my god, that'll never

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<v Speaker 1>wake the fuck up, That will never happen. Days are

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<v Speaker 1>well behind us. In the rear view fucking mirror. We

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<v Speaker 1>can't even see that shit of what couldn't possibly happen anymore,

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<v Speaker 1>because everything that we thought could not happen is happening,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's happening at a pace that I find difficult

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<v Speaker 1>to cover on a regular basis. So in today's conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with our in house doctor, we talk about democratic messaging,

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<v Speaker 1>what is going to break through, if anything, and Jonathan

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<v Speaker 1>and I come from two different sides of the argument

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<v Speaker 1>that want the same thing, democracy to not only hold on,

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<v Speaker 1>but to expand. And I just think that nowadays the

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<v Speaker 1>expansion is a pipe dream and if we're gonna be

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<v Speaker 1>able to hold it, it may just be in blue

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<v Speaker 1>states for right now. So I you know, folks, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not terribly optimist stick on today's show, but it's an

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<v Speaker 1>important conversation that we need to have coming up next,

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<v Speaker 1>my convo with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks,

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<v Speaker 1>you know that whenever we have the opportunity to speak

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<v Speaker 1>with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzl, I am

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<v Speaker 1>always thrilled each and every week. And Jonathan, I want

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<v Speaker 1>to start off with recent pushes by Elon Musk to

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<v Speaker 1>just try and decimate the Anti Defamation League right and

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<v Speaker 1>saying that the Anti Defamation League, which works to disrupt

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<v Speaker 1>anti Semitism in various places including on social media, that

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<v Speaker 1>by calling out anti Semitism, that they are somehow anti

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<v Speaker 1>Semits and had an entire hashtag hashtown hashtag ban ADL

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<v Speaker 1>trending worldwide because he pushed it out and then has

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<v Speaker 1>recently also tweeted because I'm not gonna call it fucking

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<v Speaker 1>X has also tweeted that woke is anti human And

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to get your reactions to this unchecked

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<v Speaker 1>multi billionaire who has claimed the public square, has destroyed

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<v Speaker 1>it and still received sponsorship dollars not only from private

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<v Speaker 1>companies but also subsidies from the US government. So I

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<v Speaker 1>just want to get your initial reactions with his anti

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<v Speaker 1>semit anti Semitic push.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so acceptable to other people right now. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>think of all the things that you just I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of us grew up right in the post

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<v Speaker 2>World War two era of like Man, we saw the

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<v Speaker 2>worst of humanity, and in the aftermath we read Man's

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<v Speaker 2>Search for Meeting, and we crafted the United Nations and

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<v Speaker 2>we had nuclear proliferation treaties. Like we grew up in

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<v Speaker 2>a certain world order in which doing what's happening now

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<v Speaker 2>was really unacceptable, which was just picking a stigmatized group,

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<v Speaker 2>playing off of the stereotypes of that group, and then

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<v Speaker 2>mobilizing white Christian, conservative nationalist anger. But really it's global

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<v Speaker 2>right against that group. And when that happens, the groups

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<v Speaker 2>that are targeted are so predictable. It's the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>first they came for and then just fill in the blank, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, queer people, transgender, people with disabilities, people of

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<v Speaker 2>religious minority, ethnic minority. So in a way, it's just

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<v Speaker 2>that we haven't seen this book in real time. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's always been kind of simmering there. But when you

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<v Speaker 2>see it, it's weird because it's so predictable, like, oh

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<v Speaker 2>my god, yeah, you're just doing that thing. But then

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<v Speaker 2>you also see the power of it because the I

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<v Speaker 2>mean Elon Musk, like, he's not Trump, right, he's not charismatic,

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<v Speaker 2>he's not engaging. He's a loser, a with a social

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<v Speaker 2>media platform. And the problem here, right, is that he's

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<v Speaker 2>basically doing these tropes over the social media platform. But

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<v Speaker 2>the problem is he's a guy with an awful lot

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<v Speaker 2>of power in retrospect. Remember how much we were all

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<v Speaker 2>pushing for him to buy the platform when he was

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<v Speaker 2>trying to welch out of it and stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 2>We should have been putting money together for us to

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<v Speaker 2>buy the platform. So now he's kind of buying his popularity.

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<v Speaker 2>But he's also the guy who owns starlink and dictates

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<v Speaker 2>Russian troop positions and Ukrainian advances and things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's just one person with an awful lot

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<v Speaker 2>of power who's saying this stuff that filters down, And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, it just feels like so on one hand, terrifying.

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<v Speaker 2>On the other hand, like it's kind of like reading

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<v Speaker 2>the book Fascism for Dummies, like really, like you know, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like it's just it's so obvious and so gratuitous and

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<v Speaker 2>just so completely unimaginative in a certain kind of way.

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<v Speaker 2>But I guess that's that's kind of how this stuff works.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not like it's not like the most brilliant people

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<v Speaker 2>are the ones who are creating the master narrative here, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I don't know. I mean, my dad's a

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<v Speaker 2>Holocaust survivor, and we grew up thinking like Nazis were

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<v Speaker 2>they killed all over our relatives, but they were also

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<v Speaker 2>like very predictable and like you know, what happened over

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<v Speaker 2>there and all that kind of stuff, So just as

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<v Speaker 2>seeing it happen, it just feels like watching a slow

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<v Speaker 2>motion car wreck. And I guess the other part is,

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<v Speaker 2>do you remember that when I gave my book Talk

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<v Speaker 2>for Dying of Whiteness and the Nazis came, it was

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<v Speaker 2>like twenty nineteen or something, and the ADL was really

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<v Speaker 2>really helpful, right, I was getting a lot of targeted

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<v Speaker 2>stuff and the ADL, Like, I don't know, that's the

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<v Speaker 2>only time I've ever engaged with them, but I can

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<v Speaker 2>just say on a personal level, like, if you're getting

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<v Speaker 2>oppressed by hate groups, the ADL is the most useful thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not just anti Semitism, right, they are really

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<v Speaker 2>at the front of the line for anti racist violence,

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<v Speaker 2>anti trans violence, all these kind of things. So they

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<v Speaker 2>basically help people who are being oppressed by the very

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<v Speaker 2>thing that Twitter right now is promoting its whole business model.

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<v Speaker 2>And so again it just seems like so obvious, like

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<v Speaker 2>they're going after the watcher, the watchmen of the very

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<v Speaker 2>thing that's being propagated by this hate thing. And the

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<v Speaker 2>last thing I'll say, and I realized there's like nine

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<v Speaker 2>million things to jump off of, is it's weird and

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<v Speaker 2>scary and tragic and pathetic now. But I guess my

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<v Speaker 2>main concern is, like, how is this leading up to

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty four election And what's the implication going to

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<v Speaker 2>be of all this kind of thing. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>have you found this, Like my follower count has dropped

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<v Speaker 2>pretty dramatically even in the past week you are quitting Twitter.

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<v Speaker 1>It did at the beginning of threads, right like when

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<v Speaker 1>there was like a mass exodus, all within one week.

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<v Speaker 1>But then it's slowly climbed back up. But I don't

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<v Speaker 1>you know, And again I because of Twitter having no

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<v Speaker 1>real regulations, no real anything, I don't know if it

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<v Speaker 1>went back up because of Box. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>it's real people. I absolutely have no idea. I want

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<v Speaker 1>to go back to what you mentioned with regard to

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<v Speaker 1>fascism for dummies and the fact that Elon is not

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<v Speaker 1>as charismatic as Donald Trump, and I think I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if that matters Jonathan, that he's not as charismatic

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<v Speaker 1>or that we know that he is a loser and

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<v Speaker 1>he's insecure, because I kind of want to unpack the

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<v Speaker 1>psychology with these people that is very similar. Right, So

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<v Speaker 1>you have somehow these folks that are trying to whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's Donald Trump or it's Elon Musk that there talk

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<v Speaker 1>to me about the white toxic masculinity and like and

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<v Speaker 1>also its connection to fragility, right, and what and what

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<v Speaker 1>these people exhibit is very much textbook in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>how authoritarians and strong men work.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean for me, I'll tell you the first question

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<v Speaker 2>of the pulps in my mind is like, what's the

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<v Speaker 2>value of diagnosing it right? Does diagnosing it help us

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<v Speaker 2>combat it? Does it help us fight back? Does it

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<v Speaker 2>help us unify? You know? I used to when I

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<v Speaker 2>wrote Dying of Whiteness, you know, I had this idea

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<v Speaker 2>that the reason there was so much racial resentment. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there's all these predictable you know, white men were facing

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<v Speaker 2>competition in the labor market, and we talked about that

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of weeks ago, and white men were feeling

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<v Speaker 2>displaced because the census was showing that whites were going

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<v Speaker 2>to be the demographic minority. And I think all those

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<v Speaker 2>things are true, right, the world is changing really fast.

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<v Speaker 2>The world is changing really fast. And I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>how you can process things like the climate in a

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<v Speaker 2>you know kind of man, this is catastrophic, what can

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<v Speaker 2>we do about it? Or you can process it in

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<v Speaker 2>a more primitive way, which is it's somebody else's fault.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think everybody, you know, same thing with COVID,

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<v Speaker 2>Like COVID, oh, you know, millions of people died. Is

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<v Speaker 2>it like let's ban together? Or I want to I

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<v Speaker 2>want somebody to blame, and we're in a moment now

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<v Speaker 2>where this I need somebody to blame narrative is really powerful.

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<v Speaker 2>People are not rational in the way that they've been

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<v Speaker 2>rational for much of our lives. I don't think personally

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<v Speaker 2>calling it fragility, I mean, that's a great diagnosis. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't actually use that term personally. I just think that

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<v Speaker 2>this sense of like the narrative that's working on people,

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<v Speaker 2>which is needing somebody else to blame right now and

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<v Speaker 2>then acting violently potentially on that is a is a

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<v Speaker 2>pretty big phenomenon that has racial and religious majority groups

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<v Speaker 2>acting with a kind of abandon without a kind of

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<v Speaker 2>checks and balance that have been present for much of

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<v Speaker 2>our lives. And so it's a scary moment. And I guess,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I'm just refaming your question, which is like,

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<v Speaker 2>how do we fight it? Right now?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, well, I want to before we go to the

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<v Speaker 1>how how you fight it? I do want to ask,

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<v Speaker 1>so why don't you use the term fragility? Is it

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<v Speaker 1>because you're trying to bring more people in as opposed

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<v Speaker 1>to do a dissecting and a diag gnostic Because in

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<v Speaker 1>my opinion, I think that both and need to happen. Right, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that there does need to be not a

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<v Speaker 1>diagnosis in the way that media has done it, which is,

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<v Speaker 1>let me go around and hold the hands of like

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<v Speaker 1>of racist white people to understand their racism. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think that when we are entering this place of demagoguery,

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<v Speaker 1>when we when when America, for you know, for over

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<v Speaker 1>two hundred you know, close to two hundred and fifty years,

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<v Speaker 1>has been able to stave off this strong man, I

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<v Speaker 1>there is something that is very seductive about this moment

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<v Speaker 1>and these people. And I think and the thing that

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump and an Elon musk have is that one

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<v Speaker 1>Elon musk Is is the richest man in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump lies about his wealth, but he's still wealthier

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<v Speaker 1>than the average person. Right. So there is the wealth

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<v Speaker 1>that is there that which goes with the class. There

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<v Speaker 1>is the whiteness, there is the maleness, and then there

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<v Speaker 1>is the ability to like you know, activate the media

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<v Speaker 1>and it tension around you. And so for me, I

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<v Speaker 1>do think that the importance that the importance is in

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<v Speaker 1>both and the diagnosis and of how these people have

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<v Speaker 1>risen Now when for two hundred in close to two

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty years, we've been able to make sure

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.000
<v Speaker 1>that that is not the case, That that is what

0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:26.440
<v Speaker 1>in all honesty, if you're talking about unpacking American exceptionalism,

0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.680
<v Speaker 1>it was never the white aspect of exceptionalism. It was

0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:34.000
<v Speaker 1>the fact that as you were watching other countries fall

0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:38.680
<v Speaker 1>to different two different dictators, different authoritarian regimes, that somehow

0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:42.840
<v Speaker 1>America was able up until this moment to be able

0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 1>to stay that off.

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:50.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm a structuralist, right, and so for me, the

0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.480
<v Speaker 2>argument I make in my book That's coming out in January,

0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.560
<v Speaker 2>because we used a similar move a little bit with

0:15:55.640 --> 0:16:00.520
<v Speaker 2>gun violence, which is diagnosing the problem of toxic white whale,

0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.000
<v Speaker 2>white male masculinity, which was so obvious with many mass shooters.

0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.520
<v Speaker 2>And I say, on one hand, that's probably true, Like

0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.440
<v Speaker 2>that's true to what's probably what's happening, But the framework

0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:14.280
<v Speaker 2>of like diagnosing the majority group in a way, it

0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:18.240
<v Speaker 2>just leads you farther from like what I'm arguing in

0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.800
<v Speaker 2>my book that's coming out in January is we need

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.160
<v Speaker 2>to build structures that make those points of view like

0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 2>that force people to be cooperative, to make their views irrelevant.

0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.800
<v Speaker 2>So I just don't know where we get I don't

0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.280
<v Speaker 2>know what we get by we're diagnosing white fragility as

0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:38.960
<v Speaker 2>like being sensitive to always needing to be on top,

0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.640
<v Speaker 2>or like that Joiner book, Lonely on Top or something

0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 2>like that, like people don't have the skills and whether

0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.160
<v Speaker 2>they're challenged, they react violently. Like that's a great diagnosis,

0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 2>which is what academics do a lot. But I feel

0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.320
<v Speaker 2>like sometimes, like when you're diagnosing the majority culture, it

0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.800
<v Speaker 2>just it's true, it gives a diagnosis. Maybe it's unifying

0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:02.480
<v Speaker 2>or something like that. But I guess what I'm seeing

0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.840
<v Speaker 2>in guns is it leads it. It leads it farther

0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:12.080
<v Speaker 2>from an answer a counter strategy. And so in the

0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.399
<v Speaker 2>gun book, I'm showing how, for example, the you know,

0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.560
<v Speaker 2>diagnose using the public health frame to diagnose gun culture,

0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:23.600
<v Speaker 2>which is incredibly white, racialized, incredibly historical, you know, Second

0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.119
<v Speaker 2>Amendment on down guns were used to empower certain groups

0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.199
<v Speaker 2>and disempower certain groups. But just calling it out and

0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:32.920
<v Speaker 2>saying it's name and all these things. Number one, it's

0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.159
<v Speaker 2>true about what happened, but it wasn't a model for like,

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:42.040
<v Speaker 2>how can we win elections and seat judges and build

0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:46.320
<v Speaker 2>structures that actually promote community safety across neighborhoods, like you

0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.440
<v Speaker 2>actually need to have a model that's like how can

0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.640
<v Speaker 2>we actually take power, not just critique power. So it

0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:54.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of taps into what's on my mind right now,

0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.359
<v Speaker 2>which is like our model is a protest model, but

0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.199
<v Speaker 2>the other side's working with like a power model, and

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.440
<v Speaker 2>so just critiquing them it just leads us to more critique.

0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:04.800
<v Speaker 2>That's what I'm going to argue my book. I'm sure

0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.720
<v Speaker 2>that'll be controversial for some people, but I'm like, we're

0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.160
<v Speaker 2>critiquing them, well, they're actually they have The other side

0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.560
<v Speaker 2>has a model for power which is like take over

0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:17.240
<v Speaker 2>the judiciaries, reat the Supreme Court, here's what you do

0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:19.200
<v Speaker 2>with taxes, here's do you do the corporation. We don't

0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.320
<v Speaker 2>have any of that. Our model is critiquing them, and

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.600
<v Speaker 2>so I don't know, I realize I'm going to get

0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.400
<v Speaker 2>in a lot of discussions.

0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Like that, well because I know, but I but I think,

0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.560
<v Speaker 1>but I agree with you, right, Like I agree with

0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.480
<v Speaker 1>you in terms of the question then that you would

0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.040
<v Speaker 1>be posing. The counter question is, well, then what is

0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:43.240
<v Speaker 1>the what is the progressives model for taking power? Right?

0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:48.320
<v Speaker 1>Because it can't just be protesting against the consolidation of

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.520
<v Speaker 1>power by the right, there has to be a mode

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:58.200
<v Speaker 1>of we're moving from a reactionary place to a proactive place, right,

0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.120
<v Speaker 1>And so I get what you're saying, and I do

0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.840
<v Speaker 1>think that to some extent, we have allowed ourselves to

0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:10.160
<v Speaker 1>be stuck in some ways in the diagnosis in the

0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:15.400
<v Speaker 1>protest and not wholly in the problem solving right, right.

0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.320
<v Speaker 2>And like there are great examples now, like I labor

0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:23.640
<v Speaker 2>unions are finally finally reaching out to working class white

0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.800
<v Speaker 2>populations across the South, Like you know what I mean, Like,

0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:27.479
<v Speaker 2>I think we're trying to think, like, oh, what does

0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.919
<v Speaker 2>it mean to get some power? Well, it means like

0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:35.040
<v Speaker 2>having larger you know, we just need a bigger coalition

0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.439
<v Speaker 2>than we have right now. Like progressivism is a great example.

0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.680
<v Speaker 2>I think only seven percent of Americans identify as progressive.

0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:45.280
<v Speaker 2>As progressive, you can it's great on social media, it's

0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.240
<v Speaker 2>terrible if you're trying to win an election and see

0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.760
<v Speaker 2>judges and allocate resources, it's not you don't have enough

0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:54.320
<v Speaker 2>of you don't have a big enough population of people.

0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:57.360
<v Speaker 2>And so how to broaden the coalition? I think, how

0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.280
<v Speaker 2>to imagine the endpoint of like what would it to

0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 2>win not to critique the other side, but actually to win,

0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.720
<v Speaker 2>because that's I've studied conservatives forever, that's how they think

0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.199
<v Speaker 2>they're not I mean, obviously they're critiquing liberals with all

0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:13.280
<v Speaker 2>these stupid things, but it's also tied into a model

0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:15.679
<v Speaker 2>of like how do we gain power in this situation?

0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.360
<v Speaker 2>And I just I guess I that's kind of where

0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.479
<v Speaker 2>I want to go, is like what's our version of that?

0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.880
<v Speaker 2>And so again, I like labor unions in the South

0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.239
<v Speaker 2>would be one place to really look right now to

0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.919
<v Speaker 2>see because they're actually trying to broaden the coalition and

0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.639
<v Speaker 2>upend the traditional power structures and stuff like that. And

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.280
<v Speaker 2>I just don't think. I don't think like if the

0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.400
<v Speaker 2>labor unions were using the white fragility framework or the frameworks,

0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.399
<v Speaker 2>they're going to get there. But the goal isn't to

0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:47.640
<v Speaker 2>critique white whiteness. It's to gain power, win elections, seed judges,

0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:52.400
<v Speaker 2>allocate resources by Twitter, you know that kind of thing.

0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:54.600
<v Speaker 2>And so I just think, you know, I think we're

0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.080
<v Speaker 2>getting there slowly. And again, I wrote a book Dying

0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.120
<v Speaker 2>of Whiteness, and white racial resentment is like a framework

0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.480
<v Speaker 2>I use. I'm not backing away from that but I

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:07.200
<v Speaker 2>would also say that critique is not enough right now.

0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.240
<v Speaker 2>It really isn't given what we're facing.

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 1>As we look at twenty twenty four. Right in just

0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.360
<v Speaker 1>a couple of months, we're going to be a year

0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.920
<v Speaker 1>out from the election. And the question that you had

0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:26.560
<v Speaker 1>asked with regard to Elon Musk and his platform is

0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.520
<v Speaker 1>what does this mean? What is this foreshadowing look like

0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.119
<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty four and what we know right And

0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.119
<v Speaker 1>I think that there was just a release of a

0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:42.480
<v Speaker 1>European commission on what happened prior to the war of

0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:48.040
<v Speaker 1>aggression against the Ukrainians by Russia is that the misinformation

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:54.200
<v Speaker 1>campaign that Russia was waging went wild on Twitter before

0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:59.240
<v Speaker 1>the war actually happened, right before there was an initial strike.

0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.520
<v Speaker 1>And so I think to your point, it's like, I

0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:04.320
<v Speaker 1>think that the question that we all have to be

0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.119
<v Speaker 1>asking ourselves, who are avid users of social media to

0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:13.040
<v Speaker 1>push out sacs and rightful information and to engage the public,

0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.359
<v Speaker 1>is that we're still I don't know, I feel like

0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:22.040
<v Speaker 1>we're still very much behind the eight ball in terms

0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:27.800
<v Speaker 1>of we didn't right we didn't rightfully address and prosecute

0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:31.040
<v Speaker 1>and deal with what happened in twenty sixteen. More that

0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:34.280
<v Speaker 1>happened in twenty twenty and now we're on the verge

0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:38.800
<v Speaker 1>of an entirely AI crisis with the mimicking of voices

0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.760
<v Speaker 1>and faces and video and all of these things leading

0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:42.960
<v Speaker 1>up to twenty twenty four.

0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:46.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, it's it's it's scary, and I mean, you know,

0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.760
<v Speaker 2>it's easy to see, and I mean it's it's a

0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.000
<v Speaker 2>scary moment, right, So it's really like, Okay, here's the

0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:54.879
<v Speaker 2>here's the shit we're facing. What what are we going

0:22:54.920 --> 0:23:00.720
<v Speaker 2>to do here? I h yeah, there's a lot writing.

0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:02.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I will tell you when we can talk

0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.359
<v Speaker 2>about next time. But a lot of good stuff's happening

0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:09.200
<v Speaker 2>in Nashville right now about political mobilizing. Obviously, the white

0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:13.080
<v Speaker 2>power structure in Nashville is pretty obvious, but we're doing

0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:15.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of political action here to try to change

0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:17.680
<v Speaker 2>that narrative. I don't know, I have a feeling that

0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:20.680
<v Speaker 2>in my last book, I problematized the South, but I

0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:22.200
<v Speaker 2>feel like a lot of the solutions are going to

0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:26.000
<v Speaker 2>come from the South, because there's just a lot happening

0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:28.800
<v Speaker 2>down here that I think we'll talk about it next time,

0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:30.960
<v Speaker 2>but I think there's a lot happening down here that's

0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:36.879
<v Speaker 2>actually tied to real world politics, labor politics, infrastructure, urban

0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:41.000
<v Speaker 2>stuff that I think lens itself like usually our answers

0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.720
<v Speaker 2>come from New York and LA And I think what's

0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:47.640
<v Speaker 2>going to happen going forward is the South is going

0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.800
<v Speaker 2>to create much more of the framework for what democratic

0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:54.760
<v Speaker 2>politics look like in a way because of what happened,

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.480
<v Speaker 2>the pandemic and other kinds of things. So it'll be

0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:00.159
<v Speaker 2>interesting to see how this I'll just say TVD as

0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.960
<v Speaker 2>a teaser for there going to be having because I

0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:04.760
<v Speaker 2>know we're short on time here. No.

0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:06.760
<v Speaker 1>I love it, and I think that that's right, and

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:10.199
<v Speaker 1>I you know, frankly, the right has been using the

0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:14.200
<v Speaker 1>South and the Midwest as their petri dishes to workshop

0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:18.000
<v Speaker 1>their authoritarian policies, and I think that it only would

0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:21.119
<v Speaker 1>make sense then that the solution to the policies that

0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:24.520
<v Speaker 1>are rolling out left and right across those states would

0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:28.359
<v Speaker 1>come from the very states that are at the forefront

0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:34.080
<v Speaker 1>of rolling in authoritarianism. But we will leave it there today, Jonathan,

0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:36.439
<v Speaker 1>you already tease what we're talking about next week, so

0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:39.000
<v Speaker 1>we don't even have to think about it. As always,

0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.480
<v Speaker 1>my friend, we appreciate your analysis and your time.

0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:47.200
<v Speaker 2>Hang in there, everybody, and eat lots of carbohydrates.

0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:55.280
<v Speaker 1>That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke

0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:58.800
<v Speaker 1>ap AS always, power to the people and to all

0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:02.480
<v Speaker 1>the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.