1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but things are becoming increasingly 4 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: trying to discuss as Republicans are waging an all out 5 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: war on democracy from Alabama to Tennessee to Florida to 6 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: Texas to Wisconsin. They literally are doing what Steve Bannon 7 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: had said right village by village, city by city, state 8 00:00:53,200 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: by state, plucking people's rights and votes from them. And 9 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: I get into a conversation today with our friend Jonathan 10 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: Metzel about democratic messaging and what we are getting wrong 11 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: because you know, this is where Jonathan and I disagree, 12 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: which is that I am not for the handholding. I 13 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: am not for the what ails you when it comes 14 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: to Republicans, I don't give a fuck, right Like, I 15 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: really just don't. I have zero, zero fucks to give. 16 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: And at the same time, I am trying to understand 17 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: what is it going to take to get people in 18 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: this country activated? And when I say activated, I mean 19 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: in the fucking streets. What is it going to take? 20 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: Because if it isn't, what is happening in Alibi with 21 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: denying women and people with uteruses the ability to travel 22 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: freely out of state if it isn't what is happening 23 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: in Texas, which is making it illegal to transport pregnant 24 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: people on highways, which, by the way, just so you 25 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: know that for those seeking an abortion around twenty twenty 26 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: four weeks, you're not fucking showing. So what are these 27 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: state troopers doing? Just pulling over women, you know, and 28 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: people they perceive to be women, Like I don't you know, 29 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: Like how long is it going to be until it 30 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: is mandatory for people with uteruses in these states to 31 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: have to enter in their menstrual cycle into a government database. 32 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: And you all be like, oh my god, that'll never 33 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: wake the fuck up, That will never happen. Days are 34 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: well behind us. In the rear view fucking mirror. We 35 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: can't even see that shit of what couldn't possibly happen anymore, 36 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: because everything that we thought could not happen is happening, 37 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: and it's happening at a pace that I find difficult 38 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: to cover on a regular basis. So in today's conversation 39 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: with our in house doctor, we talk about democratic messaging, 40 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: what is going to break through, if anything, and Jonathan 41 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: and I come from two different sides of the argument 42 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: that want the same thing, democracy to not only hold on, 43 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: but to expand. And I just think that nowadays the 44 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: expansion is a pipe dream and if we're gonna be 45 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: able to hold it, it may just be in blue 46 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: states for right now. So I you know, folks, I'm 47 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: not terribly optimist stick on today's show, but it's an 48 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: important conversation that we need to have coming up next, 49 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: my convo with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, 50 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: you know that whenever we have the opportunity to speak 51 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzl, I am 52 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: always thrilled each and every week. And Jonathan, I want 53 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: to start off with recent pushes by Elon Musk to 54 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: just try and decimate the Anti Defamation League right and 55 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: saying that the Anti Defamation League, which works to disrupt 56 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: anti Semitism in various places including on social media, that 57 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: by calling out anti Semitism, that they are somehow anti 58 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: Semits and had an entire hashtag hashtown hashtag ban ADL 59 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: trending worldwide because he pushed it out and then has 60 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: recently also tweeted because I'm not gonna call it fucking 61 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: X has also tweeted that woke is anti human And 62 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: I just want to get your reactions to this unchecked 63 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: multi billionaire who has claimed the public square, has destroyed 64 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: it and still received sponsorship dollars not only from private 65 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: companies but also subsidies from the US government. So I 66 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: just want to get your initial reactions with his anti 67 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: semit anti Semitic push. 68 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: It's so acceptable to other people right now. I mean, 69 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: think of all the things that you just I don't know. 70 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: A lot of us grew up right in the post 71 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: World War two era of like Man, we saw the 72 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: worst of humanity, and in the aftermath we read Man's 73 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: Search for Meeting, and we crafted the United Nations and 74 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: we had nuclear proliferation treaties. Like we grew up in 75 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: a certain world order in which doing what's happening now 76 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: was really unacceptable, which was just picking a stigmatized group, 77 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: playing off of the stereotypes of that group, and then 78 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: mobilizing white Christian, conservative nationalist anger. But really it's global 79 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: right against that group. And when that happens, the groups 80 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: that are targeted are so predictable. It's the you know, 81 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 2: first they came for and then just fill in the blank, right, 82 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: you know, queer people, transgender, people with disabilities, people of 83 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: religious minority, ethnic minority. So in a way, it's just 84 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: that we haven't seen this book in real time. I mean, 85 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: it's always been kind of simmering there. But when you 86 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: see it, it's weird because it's so predictable, like, oh 87 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: my god, yeah, you're just doing that thing. But then 88 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: you also see the power of it because the I 89 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: mean Elon Musk, like, he's not Trump, right, he's not charismatic, 90 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: he's not engaging. He's a loser, a with a social 91 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: media platform. And the problem here, right, is that he's 92 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: basically doing these tropes over the social media platform. But 93 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: the problem is he's a guy with an awful lot 94 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: of power in retrospect. Remember how much we were all 95 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 2: pushing for him to buy the platform when he was 96 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: trying to welch out of it and stuff like that. 97 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: We should have been putting money together for us to 98 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: buy the platform. So now he's kind of buying his popularity. 99 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: But he's also the guy who owns starlink and dictates 100 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: Russian troop positions and Ukrainian advances and things like that. 101 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: And so it's just one person with an awful lot 102 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 2: of power who's saying this stuff that filters down, And 103 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: I don't know, it just feels like so on one hand, terrifying. 104 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: On the other hand, like it's kind of like reading 105 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: the book Fascism for Dummies, like really, like you know, right, 106 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: Like it's just it's so obvious and so gratuitous and 107 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: just so completely unimaginative in a certain kind of way. 108 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: But I guess that's that's kind of how this stuff works. 109 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 2: It's not like it's not like the most brilliant people 110 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: are the ones who are creating the master narrative here, right, 111 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: And so I don't know. I mean, my dad's a 112 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: Holocaust survivor, and we grew up thinking like Nazis were 113 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: they killed all over our relatives, but they were also 114 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: like very predictable and like you know, what happened over 115 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: there and all that kind of stuff, So just as 116 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: seeing it happen, it just feels like watching a slow 117 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: motion car wreck. And I guess the other part is, 118 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 2: do you remember that when I gave my book Talk 119 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: for Dying of Whiteness and the Nazis came, it was 120 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: like twenty nineteen or something, and the ADL was really 121 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: really helpful, right, I was getting a lot of targeted 122 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: stuff and the ADL, Like, I don't know, that's the 123 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: only time I've ever engaged with them, but I can 124 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: just say on a personal level, like, if you're getting 125 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 2: oppressed by hate groups, the ADL is the most useful thing. 126 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: And it's not just anti Semitism, right, they are really 127 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 2: at the front of the line for anti racist violence, 128 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: anti trans violence, all these kind of things. So they 129 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: basically help people who are being oppressed by the very 130 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: thing that Twitter right now is promoting its whole business model. 131 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: And so again it just seems like so obvious, like 132 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: they're going after the watcher, the watchmen of the very 133 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: thing that's being propagated by this hate thing. And the 134 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: last thing I'll say, and I realized there's like nine 135 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: million things to jump off of, is it's weird and 136 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: scary and tragic and pathetic now. But I guess my 137 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 2: main concern is, like, how is this leading up to 138 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: the twenty four election And what's the implication going to 139 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 2: be of all this kind of thing. I don't know, 140 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 2: have you found this, Like my follower count has dropped 141 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 2: pretty dramatically even in the past week you are quitting Twitter. 142 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: It did at the beginning of threads, right like when 143 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: there was like a mass exodus, all within one week. 144 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: But then it's slowly climbed back up. But I don't 145 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, And again I because of Twitter having no 146 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: real regulations, no real anything, I don't know if it 147 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: went back up because of Box. I don't know if 148 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: it's real people. I absolutely have no idea. I want 149 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: to go back to what you mentioned with regard to 150 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: fascism for dummies and the fact that Elon is not 151 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: as charismatic as Donald Trump, and I think I don't 152 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: know if that matters Jonathan, that he's not as charismatic 153 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: or that we know that he is a loser and 154 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: he's insecure, because I kind of want to unpack the 155 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: psychology with these people that is very similar. Right, So 156 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: you have somehow these folks that are trying to whether 157 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: it's Donald Trump or it's Elon Musk that there talk 158 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 1: to me about the white toxic masculinity and like and 159 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: also its connection to fragility, right, and what and what 160 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: these people exhibit is very much textbook in terms of 161 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: how authoritarians and strong men work. 162 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: I mean for me, I'll tell you the first question 163 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: of the pulps in my mind is like, what's the 164 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: value of diagnosing it right? Does diagnosing it help us 165 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: combat it? Does it help us fight back? Does it 166 00:11:54,600 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 2: help us unify? You know? I used to when I 167 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: wrote Dying of Whiteness, you know, I had this idea 168 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: that the reason there was so much racial resentment. I mean, 169 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: there's all these predictable you know, white men were facing 170 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: competition in the labor market, and we talked about that 171 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, and white men were feeling 172 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: displaced because the census was showing that whites were going 173 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 2: to be the demographic minority. And I think all those 174 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: things are true, right, the world is changing really fast. 175 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: The world is changing really fast. And I don't know 176 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: how you can process things like the climate in a 177 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: you know kind of man, this is catastrophic, what can 178 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 2: we do about it? Or you can process it in 179 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: a more primitive way, which is it's somebody else's fault. 180 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: And I think everybody, you know, same thing with COVID, 181 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: Like COVID, oh, you know, millions of people died. Is 182 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: it like let's ban together? Or I want to I 183 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: want somebody to blame, and we're in a moment now 184 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: where this I need somebody to blame narrative is really powerful. 185 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: People are not rational in the way that they've been 186 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 2: rational for much of our lives. I don't think personally 187 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: calling it fragility, I mean, that's a great diagnosis. I 188 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: don't actually use that term personally. I just think that 189 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: this sense of like the narrative that's working on people, 190 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 2: which is needing somebody else to blame right now and 191 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: then acting violently potentially on that is a is a 192 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 2: pretty big phenomenon that has racial and religious majority groups 193 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: acting with a kind of abandon without a kind of 194 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: checks and balance that have been present for much of 195 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 2: our lives. And so it's a scary moment. And I guess, 196 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 2: I guess I'm just refaming your question, which is like, 197 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: how do we fight it? Right now? 198 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: Well, well, I want to before we go to the 199 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: how how you fight it? I do want to ask, 200 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: so why don't you use the term fragility? Is it 201 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: because you're trying to bring more people in as opposed 202 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: to do a dissecting and a diag gnostic Because in 203 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: my opinion, I think that both and need to happen. Right, Like, 204 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: I think that there does need to be not a 205 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: diagnosis in the way that media has done it, which is, 206 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: let me go around and hold the hands of like 207 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: of racist white people to understand their racism. But I 208 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: think that when we are entering this place of demagoguery, 209 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: when we when when America, for you know, for over 210 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: two hundred you know, close to two hundred and fifty years, 211 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: has been able to stave off this strong man, I 212 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: there is something that is very seductive about this moment 213 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: and these people. And I think and the thing that 214 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and an Elon musk have is that one 215 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: Elon musk Is is the richest man in the world. 216 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: Donald Trump lies about his wealth, but he's still wealthier 217 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: than the average person. Right. So there is the wealth 218 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: that is there that which goes with the class. There 219 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: is the whiteness, there is the maleness, and then there 220 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: is the ability to like you know, activate the media 221 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: and it tension around you. And so for me, I 222 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: do think that the importance that the importance is in 223 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: both and the diagnosis and of how these people have 224 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: risen Now when for two hundred in close to two 225 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years, we've been able to make sure 226 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: that that is not the case, That that is what 227 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: in all honesty, if you're talking about unpacking American exceptionalism, 228 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: it was never the white aspect of exceptionalism. It was 229 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: the fact that as you were watching other countries fall 230 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: to different two different dictators, different authoritarian regimes, that somehow 231 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: America was able up until this moment to be able 232 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: to stay that off. 233 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: Well, I'm a structuralist, right, and so for me, the 234 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: argument I make in my book That's coming out in January, 235 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: because we used a similar move a little bit with 236 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: gun violence, which is diagnosing the problem of toxic white whale, 237 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 2: white male masculinity, which was so obvious with many mass shooters. 238 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: And I say, on one hand, that's probably true, Like 239 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: that's true to what's probably what's happening, But the framework 240 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: of like diagnosing the majority group in a way, it 241 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: just leads you farther from like what I'm arguing in 242 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: my book that's coming out in January is we need 243 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 2: to build structures that make those points of view like 244 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: that force people to be cooperative, to make their views irrelevant. 245 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: So I just don't know where we get I don't 246 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: know what we get by we're diagnosing white fragility as 247 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: like being sensitive to always needing to be on top, 248 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: or like that Joiner book, Lonely on Top or something 249 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: like that, like people don't have the skills and whether 250 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 2: they're challenged, they react violently. Like that's a great diagnosis, 251 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 2: which is what academics do a lot. But I feel 252 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: like sometimes, like when you're diagnosing the majority culture, it 253 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: just it's true, it gives a diagnosis. Maybe it's unifying 254 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: or something like that. But I guess what I'm seeing 255 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: in guns is it leads it. It leads it farther 256 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: from an answer a counter strategy. And so in the 257 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 2: gun book, I'm showing how, for example, the you know, 258 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: diagnose using the public health frame to diagnose gun culture, 259 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: which is incredibly white, racialized, incredibly historical, you know, Second 260 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: Amendment on down guns were used to empower certain groups 261 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 2: and disempower certain groups. But just calling it out and 262 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: saying it's name and all these things. Number one, it's 263 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 2: true about what happened, but it wasn't a model for like, 264 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: how can we win elections and seat judges and build 265 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: structures that actually promote community safety across neighborhoods, like you 266 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 2: actually need to have a model that's like how can 267 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 2: we actually take power, not just critique power. So it 268 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: kind of taps into what's on my mind right now, 269 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 2: which is like our model is a protest model, but 270 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 2: the other side's working with like a power model, and 271 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: so just critiquing them it just leads us to more critique. 272 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: That's what I'm going to argue my book. I'm sure 273 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 2: that'll be controversial for some people, but I'm like, we're 274 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 2: critiquing them, well, they're actually they have The other side 275 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: has a model for power which is like take over 276 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: the judiciaries, reat the Supreme Court, here's what you do 277 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 2: with taxes, here's do you do the corporation. We don't 278 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: have any of that. Our model is critiquing them, and 279 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: so I don't know, I realize I'm going to get 280 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 2: in a lot of discussions. 281 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: Like that, well because I know, but I but I think, 282 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: but I agree with you, right, Like I agree with 283 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: you in terms of the question then that you would 284 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: be posing. The counter question is, well, then what is 285 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: the what is the progressives model for taking power? Right? 286 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: Because it can't just be protesting against the consolidation of 287 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: power by the right, there has to be a mode 288 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: of we're moving from a reactionary place to a proactive place, right, 289 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: And so I get what you're saying, and I do 290 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: think that to some extent, we have allowed ourselves to 291 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: be stuck in some ways in the diagnosis in the 292 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: protest and not wholly in the problem solving right, right. 293 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: And like there are great examples now, like I labor 294 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: unions are finally finally reaching out to working class white 295 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: populations across the South, Like you know what I mean, Like, 296 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 2: I think we're trying to think, like, oh, what does 297 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 2: it mean to get some power? Well, it means like 298 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: having larger you know, we just need a bigger coalition 299 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 2: than we have right now. Like progressivism is a great example. 300 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 2: I think only seven percent of Americans identify as progressive. 301 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: As progressive, you can it's great on social media, it's 302 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: terrible if you're trying to win an election and see 303 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: judges and allocate resources, it's not you don't have enough 304 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: of you don't have a big enough population of people. 305 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 2: And so how to broaden the coalition? I think, how 306 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: to imagine the endpoint of like what would it to 307 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: win not to critique the other side, but actually to win, 308 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: because that's I've studied conservatives forever, that's how they think 309 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 2: they're not I mean, obviously they're critiquing liberals with all 310 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: these stupid things, but it's also tied into a model 311 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 2: of like how do we gain power in this situation? 312 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 2: And I just I guess I that's kind of where 313 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 2: I want to go, is like what's our version of that? 314 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 2: And so again, I like labor unions in the South 315 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,239 Speaker 2: would be one place to really look right now to 316 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 2: see because they're actually trying to broaden the coalition and 317 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 2: upend the traditional power structures and stuff like that. And 318 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: I just don't think. I don't think like if the 319 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 2: labor unions were using the white fragility framework or the frameworks, 320 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 2: they're going to get there. But the goal isn't to 321 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 2: critique white whiteness. It's to gain power, win elections, seed judges, 322 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: allocate resources by Twitter, you know that kind of thing. 323 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: And so I just think, you know, I think we're 324 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: getting there slowly. And again, I wrote a book Dying 325 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: of Whiteness, and white racial resentment is like a framework 326 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: I use. I'm not backing away from that but I 327 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 2: would also say that critique is not enough right now. 328 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: It really isn't given what we're facing. 329 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: As we look at twenty twenty four. Right in just 330 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: a couple of months, we're going to be a year 331 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: out from the election. And the question that you had 332 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: asked with regard to Elon Musk and his platform is 333 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: what does this mean? What is this foreshadowing look like 334 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four and what we know right And 335 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: I think that there was just a release of a 336 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: European commission on what happened prior to the war of 337 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: aggression against the Ukrainians by Russia is that the misinformation 338 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: campaign that Russia was waging went wild on Twitter before 339 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: the war actually happened, right before there was an initial strike. 340 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: And so I think to your point, it's like, I 341 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: think that the question that we all have to be 342 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: asking ourselves, who are avid users of social media to 343 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: push out sacs and rightful information and to engage the public, 344 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: is that we're still I don't know, I feel like 345 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: we're still very much behind the eight ball in terms 346 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: of we didn't right we didn't rightfully address and prosecute 347 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: and deal with what happened in twenty sixteen. More that 348 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: happened in twenty twenty and now we're on the verge 349 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: of an entirely AI crisis with the mimicking of voices 350 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: and faces and video and all of these things leading 351 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: up to twenty twenty four. 352 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's it's scary, and I mean, you know, 353 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: it's easy to see, and I mean it's it's a 354 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: scary moment, right, So it's really like, Okay, here's the 355 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 2: here's the shit we're facing. What what are we going 356 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 2: to do here? I h yeah, there's a lot writing. 357 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: I mean, I will tell you when we can talk 358 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: about next time. But a lot of good stuff's happening 359 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 2: in Nashville right now about political mobilizing. Obviously, the white 360 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: power structure in Nashville is pretty obvious, but we're doing 361 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 2: a lot of political action here to try to change 362 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: that narrative. I don't know, I have a feeling that 363 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: in my last book, I problematized the South, but I 364 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 2: feel like a lot of the solutions are going to 365 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: come from the South, because there's just a lot happening 366 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: down here that I think we'll talk about it next time, 367 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 2: but I think there's a lot happening down here that's 368 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 2: actually tied to real world politics, labor politics, infrastructure, urban 369 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: stuff that I think lens itself like usually our answers 370 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 2: come from New York and LA And I think what's 371 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 2: going to happen going forward is the South is going 372 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: to create much more of the framework for what democratic 373 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 2: politics look like in a way because of what happened, 374 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: the pandemic and other kinds of things. So it'll be 375 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 2: interesting to see how this I'll just say TVD as 376 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: a teaser for there going to be having because I 377 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: know we're short on time here. No. 378 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: I love it, and I think that that's right, and 379 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 1: I you know, frankly, the right has been using the 380 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: South and the Midwest as their petri dishes to workshop 381 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: their authoritarian policies, and I think that it only would 382 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: make sense then that the solution to the policies that 383 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: are rolling out left and right across those states would 384 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: come from the very states that are at the forefront 385 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: of rolling in authoritarianism. But we will leave it there today, Jonathan, 386 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: you already tease what we're talking about next week, so 387 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: we don't even have to think about it. As always, 388 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: my friend, we appreciate your analysis and your time. 389 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 2: Hang in there, everybody, and eat lots of carbohydrates. 390 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke 391 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: ap AS always, power to the people and to all 392 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.