1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: That's why I'm so glad you're tuning this podcast in 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: general as well, because I think as you get more successful, 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: you start to think that you can only rely on 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: other successful people for these lessons in life. And that's 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: such bs because the best lessons always come from those. Again, 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: the normal people who names are not in light, so okay, 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: we don't know who they are, and I don't think 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: you can stress that or not. 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 2: Inner City Memphis. And the last part it somehow led 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: to an oscar for the film about our team. That 14 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: movie's called Undefeated. Y'all. I just believe our country's problems 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: are just not ever going to be solved by a 16 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: bunch of fancy people and nice clothes using big words 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 2: that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather 18 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 2: by us, an army of normal folks. That's just you 19 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: and me seeing an area of need and deciding, hey, 20 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 2: maybe I can help. And today we have a new 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: edition of our special series Supporting Greatness, where we typically 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: interview those who've achieved public greatness about their own army 23 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: of normal folks that supported them and shaped their lives. 24 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:31,839 Speaker 2: But this time we're interviewing award winning sportswriter Michael Rkoush, 25 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: who's written books with Scottie Pippen, Sugar Ray, Leonard, Phil Jackson, 26 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: and many others. In his most recent book about the 27 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: top one hundred golfers in history, Michael will celebrate each 28 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: of their army of normal folks that supported them to 29 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: make it on this list. I cannot wait for you 30 00:01:54,240 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 2: meet write after these brief messages from our general sponsors. 31 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: Michael Arkoush, Welcome to Memphis. 32 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: It's great to be here, is it? Oh man? I 33 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: love it last time ten years ago. 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: That's crazy that it's been ten years since you've been 35 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 2: in Memphis, given that you've spent about ten months here 36 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: during that ten year period ago. Yeah, it does everybody. 37 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: Michael Arkoush first and foremost is my friend. But he's 38 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: certainly not known for being my friend. What he is 39 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: is an incredible writer. He's a sportswriter. I think you've 40 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: written for golf, DIJA. What are the magazines? 41 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: Golf Magazine, Golf digest golf world. Yeah, and wrote the 42 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: Only Times, New York Times, Washing Post, yeah. 43 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: Washing and Post pretty much everybody yeah yeah. And he 44 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: is also an author of Sugar Ray Leonard's book, and 45 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: Phil Jackson's book and Scottie Pippens book and Ray Allen's book. 46 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: And Kurt menifies, Yes, I did a book with him. Yes, yeah, 47 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: see I remember that. You got it. You know me 48 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 2: more than I do some other books. I don't know 49 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: what are some other books. 50 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: I did a book about golfers and their fathers who 51 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: inspired them. 52 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that kind of thing I do. 53 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: The first book I did sixty years of usc UCLA. 54 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: Football, which who wants to read that? 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: So anyway, that's that's what we found out. 56 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: Yes, didn't sell too well. So Mike Arkush is my friend. 57 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: He's a gifted writer, and he has just released his 58 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: latest piece of work called The Golf one hundred, a 59 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: subtitled A spirited ranking of the greatest players of all Time. 60 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: And it is a book that is to elicit argument, 61 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: but we're going to get into that later. I also 62 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: want to say that as impressive as Michael's resume is 63 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: that paul Etta, his wife, is the far superior of 64 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:03,119 Speaker 2: the couple. 65 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: No question about it. What's your line about coverage? 66 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you outkicked your coverage if you absolutely kich you. 67 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: Pauletta has worked in the Foreign Service in places like 68 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:19,119 Speaker 2: Russia and Ukraine and DC and is an incredible woman 69 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: in her own right, and you way out kicked your consolutely. 70 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: So that's who Michael is in a professional personal sense. 71 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: As a snapshot before we get started, I want you 72 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: guys know if you're here at the end, we will 73 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: have a Q and A at the end of this 74 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: for any of you who want to ask any questions 75 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,559 Speaker 2: of Michael. We are today in the Memphis Listening Lab 76 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: and the cool Crosstown Concourse and Memphis, and Michael flew 77 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: in last night, I guess from Santa Barbarad and yep, yep, 78 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: flew in last night to join us. Before we get 79 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 2: going for those listening, we will have a live in 80 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: on May eighth. That will be our next live interview. 81 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 2: It is going to be with nine to eleven firefighter 82 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: Tim Brown. Tim saved fifteen lives on that faithful day 83 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: while losing one hundred friends. His story is unbelievable. He 84 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 2: doesn't see himself as a hero and what he has 85 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: to teach us about the power of an army of 86 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: normal folks is phenomenal. So May eighth at six point 87 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 2: thirty at grind City Brewing. To learn more, you can 88 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 2: RSVP and find out more at one hundred friends dot 89 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 2: event bright dot com. I hope you will join us, 90 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: and I hope those listening will join us. So we've 91 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 2: set up who Michael is, but we're not interviewing Michael 92 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: for an army of normal folks really, because he's kind 93 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: of reached some heights that most normal folks don't. However, 94 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: as many of you longtime listeners will know, on occasion 95 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: we do a special segment called Supporting Greatness, and the 96 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: Supporting Greatness series is where we interview folks who've achieved 97 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 2: public greatness, but we interview them about their own army 98 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: of normal folks who supported, inspired and helped shape their lives, 99 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: so that we get to celebrate the army of normal 100 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: folks in people who've reached greatness who we don't know about. 101 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: For this series, we've interviewed people like Mike Row from 102 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 2: Dirty Jobs, the author of The Shack, Paul Young, and 103 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: Medal of Honor recipients to Coda Meyer and David Bellavia. 104 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 2: So you were in high company. In Michael's case, we're 105 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 2: interviewing him. We're going to talk a couple about a 106 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: couple of people in your life. And then also interestingly, 107 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: as a guy who's done so much biographical work and 108 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: done so much content, but we're going to let Michael 109 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: share with us stories about normal folks in the lives 110 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: of people who supported greatness, like folks like Sugarray Leonard 111 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: and Scottie Pippen. And then we're going to get on 112 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: some of these golfers that have some extraordinary stories in 113 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: the golf one hundred and actually how you learn those stories. 114 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: So that's it. So to start us, kind of tell 115 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: us where you came from and how you grew up. 116 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: Albany, New York, the capital of the Great State of 117 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: New York, was a great place to grow up. Close 118 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: to New York City and close to Boston would shape 119 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: me and who I am really is. My father died 120 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: when I was young. I was only twelve years old. 121 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: He died of Louke Garrit's disease. It's a really horrible 122 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: time in our life, and I'll talk about it later. 123 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: But my uncle and aunt introduced me to golf. It 124 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: was this way to getting away from the tragedy of 125 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: what happened at home. It was incredibly helpful. But the 126 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: influence on my life, the early influence of my life, 127 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: is a guy named doctor Stephen Burke. He's a history 128 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: professor at Union College and connected in New York. And 129 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: he taught me the value and the beauty of history 130 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: in such a profound way. I mean, I was not 131 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: a great student before then. I was a terrible student. 132 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: Am I saying not a great student? 133 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: I was awful? 134 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: But he he made me care about learning. He made 135 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: me passionate about it to an unbel unbelievable degree. And 136 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: I remember the first time I got an a minus 137 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: in his exam, I felt like I had conquered the world. 138 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: And he taught me European history, Russian history, Jewish history, 139 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: and this is my high school. He was only thirty 140 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: six years old at the time. He's now eighty four, 141 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: and I still consult with him, talk to him once 142 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: or twice every couple months or so, let's say, and 143 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: we talk about the election, we talk about everything going 144 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: on in America. Is an unbelievable resource. And I'm just 145 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: so lucky. I've had somebody like that in my life, 146 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: somebody who was an authority on his subject like that 147 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: who made me care. And it extended way beyond. It 148 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: extended to sports history, and it is every aspect of 149 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: history and knowledge. And I never thought that knowledge was 150 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: such a beautiful thing to obtain, as when when I 151 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: studied with him. He remember at my high school graduation, 152 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: he stood up there and he gave the speech and 153 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: he said, I don't have a panacea for all of you. 154 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: I don't have a cure. I can't give you the 155 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: key to success in life. But what he didn't realize 156 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: that he had given me the key already, and I've 157 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: held on to that forever. So I'm grateful to him. 158 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: Would you be a writer for one for him? 159 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. I know that when I was in 160 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: school in sixth or seventh grade, I used to have 161 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: a textbook and in between me and the textbook was 162 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: a notebook, and the teacher thought I was taking notes 163 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: when I was writing stories. 164 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: So it's always been. 165 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: It's always been there. It's always been part of my sickness. 166 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: And I wrote a story once about a guy who 167 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: was a fighter against a Boxer. It was sort of 168 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: a preview of the book I would write forty years later, 169 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: and I didn't know it at the time see about 170 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: Ali and Frasier. But I had all these I don't 171 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: know what happened to those notes. I think if they 172 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: went the way of my baseball cards, I. 173 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: Think it could be argued then because of the perspective 174 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: of history and what he taught you, you wouldn't have 175 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: done nearly as an. 176 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: Effective Absolutely, absolutely, I know. 177 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 2: From personal experience with you, because you're irritating as hell 178 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: and proud of it. Yeah, you will research to the 179 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: nth degree before you put a word in a book. 180 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: Correct. 181 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: That has to come from. 182 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: Him, Yeah, Yeah, it does because there were so many 183 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: facts that we learned from him about all history. 184 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 185 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: If I did not have it right factually, I mean 186 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: I was not getting an aa B. I was getting 187 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: much worse. 188 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. Who else? 189 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: Okay. One of the person I only spoke to once 190 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: in my entire life, really for two hours, a guy 191 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: named David Halberstam. Maybe you recognize his great author is 192 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: God powers it be best in the brightest all these 193 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: was a correspondent for The New York Times. Vietnam I mean, 194 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: I think to the point that Kennedy tried to get 195 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: him out of the job because he was so on 196 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: top of what was going on with our failure in Vietnam. 197 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: Really even early on, and my editor at the time 198 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: I was working on a book with Phil Jackson. My 199 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: editor said, would you like to talk to Halberstam? Are 200 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: you kidding me? This is like one of my heroes. 201 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: And we were on the phone for two hours and 202 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: he told me the whole secret to writing books, which 203 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: was when you're writing a magazine article or a newspaper article, 204 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: in your mind all the time is how do I 205 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: boil this down? How do I go from thousand words 206 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: to seven hundred words and six words? How do I 207 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: keep it down? In books, it's like an according just 208 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: keep expanding, and the idea that you could write anything 209 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: you want, just keep it longer, just because you can 210 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: always edit later. In the Ali Fraser book, I did 211 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 1: a chapter on Jerry Corey. I don't know how many 212 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: you remember the fighter Jerry Corey. Muhammad Ali's first fight 213 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: after he was suspended was against Jerry Corey in Atlanta 214 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,359 Speaker 1: in October nineteen seventy. I went up in Bakersfield, California, 215 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: and I met the Corey family, spent like a whole 216 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: day with them, came back. I spent the next two 217 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: weeks and I wrote fifteen thousand words about the Corey family. Okay, 218 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: what the heck was I doing? This is a book 219 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: about Ali and Fraser. It's supposed to be like sixty 220 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: or seventy thousand words, and I'm writing fifteen thousand words. 221 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: I couldn't stop myself. Seriously, I just was like some 222 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: kind of tick or something. I just had to keep going. 223 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: Eventually I turned it down to about three thousand. And 224 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: when you're sitting there a computer and cutting down twelve 225 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: eleven twelve thousand words is not easy. But to get 226 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: to what those three thousand words are, I think you 227 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: sometimes have to write fifteen thousand. The key to writing 228 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: is not the writing, it's the rewriting. 229 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: And he taught you that. 230 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: He told me the importance of that. Yeah. 231 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: So when you think about supporting the greatness of the 232 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: works that you've put out over the last forty years, 233 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: a simple high school teacher and a conversation you had 234 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: with a guy on the home for two hours, Yeah, 235 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 2: which speaks to the power of an army in Normal 236 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 2: Folks maybe you don't even think of and those people 237 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: probably do. You think those people even have any idea 238 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: of the depth of effect they know? 239 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: And I'm told I told doctor Burke, I have probably 240 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: fifty times in the nearly half centuries since then. Boggo's 241 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: my mind about his influence. I don't know if these 242 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: people him or others really take that in because you 243 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: can hear that line, but what does it really mean? 244 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: They're there as teachers I think somewhere a registers, I 245 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: hope because I know other people similarly affected by him 246 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: as well. 247 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: It's phenomenal. And now a few messages from our gener sponsors. 248 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: But first I hope you'll consider signing up to join 249 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: the army at normal Folks dot us. By signing up, 250 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: you'll receive a weekly email with short episodes summaries in 251 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: case you happen to miss an episode or if you 252 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: prefer reading about our incredible guess. We'll be right back. Okay, 253 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: so let's go to some of your past work before 254 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: we go to some really interesting stuff about some of 255 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: the people we've most recently wrote about. But Alex did 256 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: some research and he talked about sugar Ray Leonard and 257 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: Dave Jacobs, the trainer he had as a kid that 258 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: I think was nicknamed Jake. There was a volunteer at 259 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: a local recreation center. And as phenomenal as Sugar Ray 260 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: Leonard is, it feels like Sugar Ray Leonard doesn't become 261 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 2: Sugar Ray Leonard without Dave Jacobs. 262 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's actually and there's three. There's three people. These 263 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: two others besides Gave at that time that had such 264 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: a profound influence on him. I just want to tell 265 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: you Dave was the city the amateur athletic featherweight title 266 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: champion in forty nine, Turnpro nineteen forty nine, won a 267 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: bunch of bouts, but boxing he realized was never going 268 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: to pay the bills, so he began volunteering at the 269 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: rec center, became the coach and cheers leader. And what 270 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: he used to do he used to bring Ray and 271 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of others over to his house to show 272 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: filters of the greats like Jersey Joe Walcott and Willie 273 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: Pep and Sugar Ray Robinson. So Ray learned who great 274 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: fighters were through Dave Jacobs. So that was one person. 275 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: Another guy named peppi Korea and I want to read this. 276 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: This is really interesting because just because we're in Memphis, 277 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to read from the book. I constantly marveled 278 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: at his ability to recite verbatim doctor King's I have 279 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: a dream speech with remarkable passion in each syllable, and 280 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: that had a big influence on Ray understanding doctor King. 281 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: I understand understanding who he was as an African Americans. 282 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: So that's the second person at that point in Ray's life. 283 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: Another guy was named jenks Morton, who had wanted to 284 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: play in the NFL but wasn't good enough, started an 285 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: insurance agency in the Washington area, and it was with Jake. 286 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: With him, it wasn't the amount of push ups or 287 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: sit ups or jumping rope. In his opinion, the only 288 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: way to be among the best was to show more 289 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: desire than your opponent. And that's what Ray learned. He 290 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: just had an incredible desire and never stopped. He had 291 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: these three people that nobody's really heard of or not 292 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: many have heard of, and they formed the backbone of 293 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: Ray's career. 294 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: When one of the coolest things about what you do 295 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: for a living is you get to spend time with 296 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: these cool people. You get to spend time with Phil Jackson. 297 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: You could just spend time with Scottie Pippen. You get 298 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: access in a very intimate way with people because you're 299 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: writing their stories, so you have to mine in to 300 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: not only understand their stories, but oftentimes the why absolutely 301 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: and the who behind their story. When when people like 302 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: Sugar Ray are talking about Peppe Korea and James Morton 303 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: and Dave Jacobs, does their affect change Do you see 304 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: a level of reverence? Oh? 305 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, because no matter how famous they are, they haven't 306 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: lost sight of who they were before they became famous. 307 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: It's very important to be in touch with that. And 308 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: we'll get the Scottie Pippen in a while too. It's 309 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: same thing. They recognize why they're there, and they recognize 310 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: the people that put them there. And there's not one 311 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: person I've ever profiled and been around with not had 312 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: that impact of a normalfolk person, There's no question about it. 313 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: Which has to speak to all of you listening to 314 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 2: our voice right now. You don't have to be famous, 315 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: you don't have to be part of some massive organization, 316 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: you don't have to start incredible five OHO one C 317 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 2: three The interaction you have on a daily basis with 318 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: somebody you may never you may you may have no 319 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: idea the impact of the void that you're filling or 320 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 2: the need that you're filling, and that may not manifest 321 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 2: itself for fifteen, twenty thirty years later. But the point is, 322 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: every single day we have an opportunity, as just normal 323 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: folks when we see areas of need and fill them, 324 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 2: when we see when we see want and desire and 325 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: help satisfy it. Oftentimes the measure of our success may 326 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 2: reveal itself decades later, but it doesn't make it any 327 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 2: less profound. 328 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: And I also think that's when people veer off too, 329 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: is when they lose sight of that, when they lose 330 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? What I mean is 331 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: when they become when they become maybe full of themselves, 332 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: maybe become too arrogant, go off into different directions, was 333 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: that discipline, lose that character that formed who they were, 334 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: that's crucial. That that can be devastating. I've seen too 335 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: many athletes who have just gone off the reservation because 336 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: they have forgot the values and the normal people that 337 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: helped put him their family, friends, coaches, et cetera. 338 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: That's a good segue. Scottie Pippen talks with reverence about 339 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 2: his mom and his brother. And his brother. For those 340 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: who don't know, I think is a quadriplegic or paraplegic. 341 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: His brother, I think got into a fight and didn't 342 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: walk again. Is that correct? 343 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: Well, I'll read. I'll tell you exactly what happened. He 344 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: was in gym class and some guy just Scotty's brother. 345 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: Scotty's brother, Ronnie was in gym class and Scotty was 346 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: only three when it happened. Out of nowhere, this bully 347 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: just delivered a sucker punch in the middle of his 348 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: brother's back. Brother. His brother fell to the floor, unable 349 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: to get up, and he sent the hospital. Everything went 350 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: on and basically never really got that. We was able 351 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: to do some things, but never got anywhere better. I 352 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: want to read to something that Scotti wrote. He goes 353 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 1: Ronnie had every right to give up to curse the 354 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: fate he was handed. He didn't. He fought hard to 355 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: build a protective, productive and happy life. I'm not the 356 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: biggest success story in the Pippin family. He is, and. 357 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 2: Everybody knows who Scottie Pippins and nobody knows who Ronnie is. Correct, 358 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 2: But Ronnie's strength clearly provide an illustration to Scotty about 359 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: how to be success. 360 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And when I hear you talked about the change 361 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: and the voice, I think a little bit about when 362 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: they talk with the yeah, the effect, you know, it's 363 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: just like the veil comes up. I mean, Scotty gets 364 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: very emotional talking about ro You can see it. And 365 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: whether it's about Ronnie or his mother, I'll get to 366 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: that in a second, and it's like he's brought back 367 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: to that moment right there with them. 368 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 2: That. You know, that's interesting because you got the six', 369 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: nine massive human being who's got how many championship? Rings six, 370 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 2: six who's made millions and, millions who's really been on a. 371 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 2: Pedestal it has to be interesting to watch all of 372 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: that melt off of this mammoth human being and watch 373 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 2: him get reminiscent and emotional and almost childlike when. 374 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: Talking those moments are what makes writing books mean everything to, 375 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: me because to see that somebody famous be somebody, real 376 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: and to see them show emotion and understanding of their 377 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: journey and what moves them away from so many athletes 378 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: these days assume a certain PERSONA i don't even want 379 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: to interview them, anymore because you can just tell the 380 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: cliches are going to, come the. Distancing they don't relate to. 381 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: You but when you spend time with someone or the 382 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: course of a, book they get down into sort of 383 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: down to earth with, you really telling you candid, things 384 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: and they get. Vulnerable the key to a successful book 385 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: is getting somebody to be. 386 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: Vulnerable how seriously do you take the charge to make 387 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 2: sure that vulnerability comes across the words to the. Reader 388 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: what do you mean if you don't successfully write it 389 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: in a way that the reader understands how how very 390 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: real and vulnerable that, is then it's a. 391 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: Miss, well you, know this is so weird because WHEN 392 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: i write with somebody and take on their, voice sounds, 393 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: crazy BUT i try to assume their. CARRIACTER i tried 394 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: to feel Like i'm, them which can get too far at. 395 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 1: Times BUT i try to take on the persona SO 396 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: i in some WAY i tap into my own. Vulnerability 397 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: so IF i can do, that THEN i can write 398 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: in their, own their own words their. Vulnerability you get. 399 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: Emotional oh, YEAH i mean one of the stories in 400 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 1: The Sugar Ray lenar. Book i'm not sure how many 401 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,239 Speaker 1: are familiar with. It but he was sexually abused when 402 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: he was, young, okay. 403 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: AND i had no. Idea, yeah AND. 404 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: I didn't know, that oh, yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah AND 405 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: i didn't know about this for like the first four 406 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: or five months we worked on the, book you, know 407 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: and then one day he just told, me AND i 408 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: remember leaving his house and driving about two blocks and 409 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: parking and just. CRYING i was so moved by it 410 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: because BECAUSE i also happened with you. TOO i, mean 411 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: you feel like you have to develop this sense of 412 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: ownership or. PROTECTING i, mean HERE'S i, am, this you, 413 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: know relatively small guy dealing with these huge, athletes and 414 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: YET i FEEL i have to assume the role of 415 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: the protector because their words are going to be out, 416 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: there they're going to be, assessed they're going to be, analyzed, 417 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: reviewed AND i want to make sure they come across 418 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: factual and fair and. Honest and SO i start to think, of, 419 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: well what they say is they're going to be is 420 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: how is it going to come? Across and they're not 421 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: always so on top of how to protect, themselves believe 422 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: it or. Not so that's one of my big. 423 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 2: Jobs we'll be right. 424 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: Back scotti's Mom scotty's. Mom this is another. Story it 425 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: wasn't around. That it wasn't too long afterwards when When 426 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: scotty's father was sitting on the sofa having dinner and 427 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: then suddenly he just dropped his plate slump toward the 428 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: edge of the. Sofa there was a deranged look in his. 429 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: Eyes he was food coming out of his. Mouth he 430 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: was having a stroke on the right side of his, 431 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: body and from then on he would never be able 432 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: to walk or really speak. Again he could say yes or, 433 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: no but he really couldn't put together a full. Sense 434 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: so think of it about, THIS i think Is Scottie pippens's. 435 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: BACKGROUND a brother who has an, accident who can't, walk 436 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: a father then who has a, stroke who can't. 437 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: Walk he has a big, family and these are not 438 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: wealthy people they're living and where In, Arkansas, Hamburg, arkansas And, Berg. Arkansas, 439 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 2: no not wealthy. 440 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: People so there was a lot of criticism over the 441 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: time When The Last dance came, out the documentary That 442 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: Michael jordan and the book did basically about The bulls 443 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: and their, titles and there was. Criticism there has been 444 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: criticism Of scotty for sort of his contract demands and 445 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: how he viewed what he what he wanted from the 446 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: bulls and there's AND i look at people and wanted to, 447 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: say look at look what he went, Through look what 448 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: he came. FROM i understand it. Totally so was. Mom, 449 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: yeah so his mom was just. Unbelievable she just was 450 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: always there for, him always there for her. Father she 451 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: just knew how to show. STRENGTH i think he learned 452 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: learned strength and she learned strength from her. Mother in, 453 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: FACT i love. This the word on the street Was 454 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: grandma could work hard as hard as any. Man perhaps 455 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: it was from growing up in an Arwarin black folks 456 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: in The south didn't complain about their. Fate they simply 457 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: accepted whatever The Good lord gave them and did their 458 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: best to improve their circumstances one day at a. Time 459 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: and his, Mom scotty's mom grew up In louisiana picking 460 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: cotton with her mama when she was a little, girl 461 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: and from her he learned about the work. Ethic, basically. 462 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: She was stricter with me than she was with my 463 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 2: brothers and. Sisters they didn't have to go To sunday 464 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: school in church LIKE i. DID i resented. It feeling is, 465 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 2: THIS i was being punished by having to sing hymns 466 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 2: and listen to SERMONS i didn't understand while my friends 467 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: were out. Playing looking, BACK i couldn't be more. Grateful 468 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: The lord is a powerful presence in my life today 469 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 2: and that's because of my. 470 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: Mom thank you for reading. That, yes, absolutely, yeah pretty. 471 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 2: Phenomenal yeah. Yeah so as you go through you think 472 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 2: About Sugar Ray, leonard you think about, you you think 473 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 2: About Scottie, pippen all of these people who've reached these 474 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: levels of. Greatness there's just no way the level of 475 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 2: greatness they've attained don't happen without this army of normal 476 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: folks in their lives that supported them along the. 477 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: Way and that's Why i'm so glad you're turning this 478 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: podcast in general as, well BECAUSE i think as you 479 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: get more, successful you start to think that you can 480 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: only rely on other successful people for these lessons in. 481 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: Life and that's such bs because the best lessons always 482 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 1: come from Those, again the normal, people who their names 483 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: are not in Light so, okay we don't know who they, 484 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: are AND i don't think you can stress that. 485 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: Enough, basically now it's time to. Plug on top of 486 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: What michael said don't you have some social media thing 487 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 2: of words of wisdom from normal people or normal folks. 488 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: Wisdom so On instagram we have a thing called normal 489 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 2: Folks wisdom that our guests that say something wise that 490 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 2: would be like a quote in a book if they're, 491 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: famous he now posts them on social. Media, Right so 492 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 2: anybody who wants to hear normal folks wisdom just. 493 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: Go to what they often have better wisdom than the. 494 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: Experts that's. It that's. 495 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: GREAT i love. 496 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: That it is. Great, okay so his latest, release and 497 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: we are going to stay on the topic of supporting 498 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: greatness with the, people some of the people in the. 499 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: Book BUT i think it's important to set up the 500 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: Book The golf one, hundred the spirited ranking of the 501 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: greatest players of all. Time any time we, rank all 502 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: my friends argue, about you, know is would you rather 503 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 2: Have Michael jordan Or Lakers Kobe kobe or a Chem 504 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: elaijuan Versus. SHACK i, mean sports fans throughout, history, regardless 505 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: support always. Rank Was marino better than alway that the 506 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: fact That marino doesn't have A Super bowl wing make 507 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: him less important Than Terry. Bradshaw we always want to. 508 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: Rank it's just the way we. 509 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: Do lebron is the one more fitting Than kobe in that. Argument, 510 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: yeah that's what you. 511 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 2: Say we're arguing about. It so, then in your infinite, 512 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: wisdom you go write a book that nobody's ever going 513 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: to agree. WITH i love. 514 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: IT i don't want people to agree with. ME i 515 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: want people to. ARGUE i want people to present their. Case. 516 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah so you go through over the course of three 517 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 2: years and research thousands of. Golfers and one of the 518 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,719 Speaker 2: beautiful things about this book is you don't care if 519 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 2: they're male or. Female, no thousands of golfers and you 520 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: start ranking. Them and, then in True MICHAEL. R kush, 521 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: fashion you're not just going to rank them and talk about. 522 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 2: Them you want to go interview them and their. Families 523 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,239 Speaker 2: so it's not just a. Ranking each ranking of one 524 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 2: hundred is a profile of these people where you go 525 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: talk to them and study them and do the history 526 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: that you learned from your teacher in high. 527 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: School, yeah WHICH i think IF i kind of my, 528 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: WAY i would never finish the. Book, actually you, KNOW. 529 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: I think your publisher what you. Finish, yeah that's sort 530 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 2: of the idea behind. It, yeah WHAT i find vastly. 531 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 2: Interesting before we get into, people BECAUSE i want people 532 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: to understand the work that went under those is you're 533 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: not just talking about these people as if you read about, 534 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: them you've actually interviewed them or their. Families, yes, yeah all, 535 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 2: right but you also, SAID i don't want to be 536 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 2: too arbitrary in my, ranking so you came up with a. 537 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 2: System explain. That, okay all. 538 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: Right first of, all in terms of the, research, YES 539 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: i did not have a life in these three. 540 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: Years. 541 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: OKAY i went back AND i read through Every Golf 542 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: dies issue since nineteen fifty. What, yeah, yeah. 543 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: There read Every Golf dides issue for the last. 544 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: That is now THAT i was on, YouTube AND i 545 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: think there was a missing person report issued on me 546 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: WHEN i went to, YouTube because BECAUSE i basically dived 547 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: in and did not get. Out it's the rabbit hole 548 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: of rabbit, HOLES i. Think AND i. READ i watched 549 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: every single major TELECAST i could find of every television you, 550 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: know tournament they've. Had SO i did. THAT i had 551 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: one hundred, books at least friends of mine gave me 552 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: books to go, through SO i, Did, hey you know 553 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: what this fear. Was the fear was who DO i 554 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: leave out? Here? Right so? Far the book's been now three. 555 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: Weeks i've not heard from anyone not left. OUT i 556 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: have heard this, morning you heard twice the same. Name, 557 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: yeah that was a joke though The memphis radio hits 558 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: he did this. Morning they both Where's John? 559 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: Daily Where's John? 560 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: Daily, NO i meant SOME i didn't Mean John. Dailey 561 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: he's not a. Joke somebody. Else they mentioned that that 562 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: person who plays with The, no, no, no nobody you've 563 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: Heard John daily will get into. 564 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 2: That, wait the ranking, first the, metric the, ranking all, 565 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 2: right the, metrics the. 566 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: Metrics two thousand points for every major, victory because majors 567 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: are what comprised greatness in. 568 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 2: Golf if anybody's watched the Documentary Full swing is a 569 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 2: full swing that's been. Out, yeah you don't even have 570 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: to be a golfer to get into, that but you 571 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 2: can tell amongst the golfers. Majors is it? Today? 572 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah four times a, year two thousand points for 573 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: every major, victory five hundred per, second two fifty, third 574 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: one hundred, fourth and fifty. FIFTH i also ordered three 575 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: hundred points for every regular tour, victory BUT i didn't 576 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: count if a guy finished third in The John Deere 577 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: classic by shooting a sixty five On. Sunday to, me 578 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: that's not about. GREATNESS i didn't count senior tour. Victories 579 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: that's not about. GREATNESS i didn't count The Ryder cup 580 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: because that came along much. Later and what about the 581 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: players didn't get a chance to play in The Ryder. 582 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: CUP i also gave bonus points to contribution to the, 583 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: game impact on the, game and vrieting of other. Factors 584 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: so that's the outlines of the metric. SYSTEM i have a, 585 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: question by the, way one other. THING i took away 586 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: points for players who had won a number of tour, 587 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: victories but no majors you. TOOK i took await, points 588 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,719 Speaker 1: AND i thought to, Myself, yeah that feels, Right and 589 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: it came Down my publisher kept telling, me AND i 590 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: finally realized my, book my, rules in. 591 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: My book By. Rules if you don't like, it write 592 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 2: your own. 593 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: Day. Yeah, ABSOLUTELY i spent nine months with. You, yes, SIR. 594 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: I have to ask this, question uh, oh because it's 595 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: not part of the METRIC u oh that you've. Described 596 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: you are so big on honesty and integrity and. Character, 597 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: yeah did you allow yourself to be dissuaded by horrible? 598 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: Behavior not, really because then you're opening up a whole 599 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: other series of. Problems, however in the chapter On Tiger, 600 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: WOODS i did point out the, scandal AND i do 601 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: believe that that whole thing takes away from some of his. Greatness, yes. 602 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 2: And that concludes part one of my conversation With michael 603 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: Ar kush and you don't want to miss part two 604 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 2: that's now be able to listen. To, Together, guys we 605 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: can change this country and it starts with. You i'll 606 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 2: see you in part. 607 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: Two look