WEBVTT - How Countries Are Grappling With The Gender Pay Gap

0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Last summer, a firestorm erupted in the UK when the

0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.800
<v Speaker 1>BBC disclosed how much it was paying its top talent.

0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:13.920
<v Speaker 1>That's because the news outlets numbers showed a stark contrast

0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:17.760
<v Speaker 1>between how much its male and female employees were making.

0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.840
<v Speaker 1>The fallout was swift. The BBC received waves of bad press,

0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:27.960
<v Speaker 1>along with two hundred equal pay complaints from employees. It

0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.800
<v Speaker 1>was just one example of how the country is struggling

0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:35.680
<v Speaker 1>with a global problem, the gender pay gap. So how

0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.199
<v Speaker 1>has the UK come closer to closing that gap? How

0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.000
<v Speaker 1>does this compare to the United States, and what are

0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.680
<v Speaker 1>other countries doing to give equal pay for equal work.

0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Benchmark. I'm Scott Lanman, economics editor with Bloomberg

0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:04.959
<v Speaker 1>News and Washington. So globally women make less than men,

0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.080
<v Speaker 1>and both in the United States and the UK women

0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.440
<v Speaker 1>make a little under twenty less than men, but some

0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.680
<v Speaker 1>countries are working to close the gender pay gap. Here

0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.800
<v Speaker 1>to tell us more is Bloomberg reporter Rebecca Greenfield. Rebecca

0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.440
<v Speaker 1>is also the host of The Paycheck, a limited series

0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:27.320
<v Speaker 1>podcast that has just published its grand finale. Rebecca, welcome

0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:29.399
<v Speaker 1>back to the show. Thank you so much for having

0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:33.520
<v Speaker 1>me so. First of all, Rebecca, congratulations on finishing up

0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.640
<v Speaker 1>the Paycheck. It's a fascinating podcast. It's really enjoyable. I

0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:41.880
<v Speaker 1>really liked it, and you and your colleagues just did

0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:46.320
<v Speaker 1>an amazing job, you know, taking an issue that numbers

0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.720
<v Speaker 1>the kind of stuff that I covered on a day

0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.560
<v Speaker 1>to day basis on the Economy team, and yet you know,

0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.640
<v Speaker 1>really going into the stories behind it, making it come

0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.680
<v Speaker 1>to life and finding so many angles that you know

0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:01.840
<v Speaker 1>that I learned a lot, and I think anyone who

0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.760
<v Speaker 1>listens to it will learn a lot too. So congratulations

0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.520
<v Speaker 1>on it. Thank you so much. That's that's really it's

0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.720
<v Speaker 1>really nice to hear that. So first of all, I'm

0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.080
<v Speaker 1>just wondering why did you decide to do the podcast.

0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.680
<v Speaker 1>So a lot of people know this big headline number,

0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:20.680
<v Speaker 1>right that women make less than men, but we really

0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.120
<v Speaker 1>wanted to get beyond that. We wanted to get into

0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.520
<v Speaker 1>why that happens now, the history of it, and maybe

0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.280
<v Speaker 1>even some solutions. So I think if you can come

0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.040
<v Speaker 1>out of the show just knowing one thing that you

0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:36.080
<v Speaker 1>didn't know before about the gender pay gap, then we've

0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.400
<v Speaker 1>done our job, and I think most people find more

0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:44.080
<v Speaker 1>than one now, Rebecca, this was also had a personal

0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.560
<v Speaker 1>angle for you too. Can you tell us a little

0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.960
<v Speaker 1>bit about that. Yeah, so in the first episode, I

0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.120
<v Speaker 1>tell a story about my life. It's about my mom

0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.760
<v Speaker 1>and she sued her employers for paid discrimination when I

0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.560
<v Speaker 1>was in middle school. So we tell the story about that,

0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.160
<v Speaker 1>about how she was a surgeon and she found out

0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.240
<v Speaker 1>that she made five times less than her colleagues for

0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.040
<v Speaker 1>a certain work she was doing, and she sued and

0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:12.840
<v Speaker 1>it was almost a ten year battle which ended up

0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.520
<v Speaker 1>getting her a settlement. But we also talked about how

0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:18.840
<v Speaker 1>kind of it affected her personally. She talks about it

0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.120
<v Speaker 1>as her third job and as someone who grew up

0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.320
<v Speaker 1>in that time, how having a mom like this made

0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.440
<v Speaker 1>me view the world. Yeah, it was just a really

0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.760
<v Speaker 1>powerful way to to start the podcast, and you know,

0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.720
<v Speaker 1>we all really appreciate you sharing that with the public

0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.560
<v Speaker 1>and the whole world. Basically for us today, I wanted

0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.200
<v Speaker 1>to also start by having you set up a clip

0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.800
<v Speaker 1>from the Paycheck. So tell me first, who is Carrie Crazy?

0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.120
<v Speaker 1>So Kara Gracy was one of four international editors at

0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.880
<v Speaker 1>the BBC the British podcasters, So she had a really

0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.400
<v Speaker 1>pretty big important job and she worked at the BBC

0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.640
<v Speaker 1>for all of her career over thirty years, and she

0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:05.760
<v Speaker 1>moved to China a few years ago for this prestigious position.

0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.560
<v Speaker 1>And then this summer everything kind of came crashing down

0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.880
<v Speaker 1>when the BBC had to disclose the pay of its

0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.360
<v Speaker 1>top talent, and she found out she was making fifty

0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.120
<v Speaker 1>percent less than the men doing the same jobs. So

0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:24.359
<v Speaker 1>she resigned. All right, let's hear that clip. I was

0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:29.279
<v Speaker 1>for four years leading our China coverage. That's carry testifying

0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.200
<v Speaker 1>in front of British Parliament a few months ago. There

0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.760
<v Speaker 1>are significant risks in our China coverage. I dealt with them.

0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.039
<v Speaker 1>I did a good job twice. I've been a world

0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.719
<v Speaker 1>Television society. Normal need for the BBC for specialist journalists

0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.839
<v Speaker 1>of the year. It's just and you know what, I

0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:50.600
<v Speaker 1>get me emotional. But what I really want to say

0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.360
<v Speaker 1>about this equal pay problem at the BBC is what

0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:58.520
<v Speaker 1>it forces the BBC to do is to retrofit in defense,

0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, defenses just to the cations of the indefensible.

0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.200
<v Speaker 1>The BBC gets most of its funding from the public.

0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Its newest charter required the broadcaster to reveal how much

0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.559
<v Speaker 1>it pays its top talent. The government thought that people

0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.800
<v Speaker 1>should know where their money was going. It turned out

0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.080
<v Speaker 1>it was mostly going to men. The BBC had a

0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.560
<v Speaker 1>wide pay gap at its most senior levels. The top

0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.200
<v Speaker 1>man made over two million pounds, the highest paid woman

0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.080
<v Speaker 1>just a quarter of that. So Rebecca, this wasn't just

0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.720
<v Speaker 1>about the BBC. Right. When did the law to disclose

0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:38.280
<v Speaker 1>how much British companies pay men and women go into effect? Right,

0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.400
<v Speaker 1>So the BBC was required to disclose pay of its

0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.960
<v Speaker 1>top talent. But a separate law went into effect in

0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.440
<v Speaker 1>the UK April of this year where companies with over

0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.640
<v Speaker 1>two hundred fifty employees had to publicly disclose their gender

0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:56.040
<v Speaker 1>pay gaps. So that's the difference unadjusted raw difference between

0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.640
<v Speaker 1>what men and women make in a given company. And

0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.920
<v Speaker 1>this went into effect April of this year. And what

0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:08.320
<v Speaker 1>was the BBC's response to this controversy. So the BBC

0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.880
<v Speaker 1>says that you know, it's working with a gender pay

0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.800
<v Speaker 1>gap like the rest of other companies, and they're committed

0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.160
<v Speaker 1>to gender equality and they resolved a lot of the

0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.520
<v Speaker 1>equal pay complaints and they say they want to close

0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:25.400
<v Speaker 1>their gender pay gap. By Gracy thinks it's not enough.

0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.040
<v Speaker 1>She testified in front of Parliament and said that you know,

0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.920
<v Speaker 1>she they offered her raise, but it still wasn't equal,

0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.599
<v Speaker 1>and she just wants to be valued for who she is.

0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.720
<v Speaker 1>So there's kind of this tension happening. It sounds like

0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.680
<v Speaker 1>we could come back in and have another look at

0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.120
<v Speaker 1>this whole issue. What about the other companies that have

0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.200
<v Speaker 1>reported in the UK? What have those reports shown? So

0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:52.520
<v Speaker 1>over ten thousand companies have reported, and basically the majority

0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.880
<v Speaker 1>of companies and the majority of industries have found that

0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.840
<v Speaker 1>women make less than men. I mean, it's not a surprise,

0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.039
<v Speaker 1>but some of the pay gaps are really big. So

0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.160
<v Speaker 1>Goldman Sacks, which is another company that we feature in

0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.000
<v Speaker 1>one of our episodes. In the first episode, it has

0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.400
<v Speaker 1>like over at pay gap, So it's like a really

0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.160
<v Speaker 1>stark difference between what men and women are making. What

0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.400
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't show these numbers don't show is like why

0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:21.720
<v Speaker 1>that's happening generally. It just means women are holding most

0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.960
<v Speaker 1>of the lowest paying jobs and then companies kind of

0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.640
<v Speaker 1>have to decide where to go from there. So it's

0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.240
<v Speaker 1>really interesting that the UK has this law and all

0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.120
<v Speaker 1>these companies have given these numbers, But is there any

0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.280
<v Speaker 1>kind of enforcement mechanism for having such a big pay

0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.480
<v Speaker 1>gap and penalties or anything like that. Or is it

0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:44.080
<v Speaker 1>just about shaming these companies into doing something. Yeah, exactly.

0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.920
<v Speaker 1>We we call it a shaming initiative in the episode.

0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.400
<v Speaker 1>It really is kind of this idea that in theory,

0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.720
<v Speaker 1>if your company has a huge pay gap, you're gonna

0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:54.920
<v Speaker 1>not want to look bad and try to close it.

0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:57.560
<v Speaker 1>I also think it's more of a diagnostic tool at

0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.080
<v Speaker 1>this point. You know, we're trying to see what the

0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.000
<v Speaker 1>problem is and tease it out from this big national

0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.680
<v Speaker 1>number we're normally hearing. But yeah, there's no enforcement for

0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.000
<v Speaker 1>closing the pay gap or anything like that. It's really

0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.760
<v Speaker 1>a blunt instrument. Talk about blunt. I mean I found

0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.480
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the a lot of your reporting to

0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.120
<v Speaker 1>be very blunt and the interviews to be blunt in

0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:22.320
<v Speaker 1>how companies are facing up to these issues. One segment

0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.280
<v Speaker 1>I found very fascinating was a woman who was the

0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.200
<v Speaker 1>CEO of a bank in the UK talk about the

0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.360
<v Speaker 1>pay gap at her company, and it turned out that

0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:32.480
<v Speaker 1>a lot of men were at the higher levels and

0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.760
<v Speaker 1>women were at the on the lower rungs of that bank.

0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.120
<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us a little bit about that and

0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.160
<v Speaker 1>was that segment challenging to produce in any way. Yeah,

0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.400
<v Speaker 1>so we I believe you're talking about the segment we

0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.320
<v Speaker 1>did with the CEO of Virgin Money. Jane and Gaudia

0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.080
<v Speaker 1>talked to us and yeah, they're big financial services company

0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.160
<v Speaker 1>in the UK and they reported a thirty three percent

0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.280
<v Speaker 1>pay gap, so that's big and bigger than the national average.

0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.959
<v Speaker 1>And when they dug into it, they found that it's

0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.679
<v Speaker 1>because women are generally clustered in these customer service jobs,

0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:06.760
<v Speaker 1>which are the lower paying jobs, and men generally have

0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.200
<v Speaker 1>the highest paying jobs. So, you know, how do they

0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.240
<v Speaker 1>fix it? And yeah, it was really interesting to hear

0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:15.280
<v Speaker 1>the CEO talk about it because she was saying how she,

0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, needs to get more men to want to

0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:19.920
<v Speaker 1>do these jobs. But you could see how that would

0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.600
<v Speaker 1>be hard because first of all, they're not very well paid,

0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.000
<v Speaker 1>but also there's just this idea that this is a

0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.200
<v Speaker 1>woman's job and so far they really haven't had much luck.

0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.320
<v Speaker 1>But I also found it fascinating from the perspective it

0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.080
<v Speaker 1>that you had a woman CEO talk about this and

0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.960
<v Speaker 1>how difficult it was from her perspective even to overcome

0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.520
<v Speaker 1>this issue. I mean, did didn't you find that with

0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.760
<v Speaker 1>with other women that you had interviewed also. Yeah, and

0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.240
<v Speaker 1>the general feelings from women is that it's really tough.

0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.280
<v Speaker 1>And I think, yeah, their company does all the right things,

0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, all the things we hear that you're supposed

0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.679
<v Speaker 1>to do, having initiatives and having programs to get more

0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.800
<v Speaker 1>women into senior roles and the females yo, and yeah,

0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.400
<v Speaker 1>none of this is enough, and I think, yeah, it's

0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:08.160
<v Speaker 1>a bit shocking. Let's talk about the United States a bit.

0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.959
<v Speaker 1>I know we have a pay gap here. I've edited

0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.120
<v Speaker 1>stories about it. You've written about it too, uh and um,

0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.560
<v Speaker 1>you know we have your podcast now to talk about it.

0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:20.079
<v Speaker 1>And yet this issue goes back over a hundred years.

0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.440
<v Speaker 1>You actually went back to the Civil War and I

0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.760
<v Speaker 1>found that really interesting. How how did you come across

0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.560
<v Speaker 1>this history. So there's this letter that was written to

0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.240
<v Speaker 1>the New York Times. It's it's anonymous, but probably by

0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.360
<v Speaker 1>a group of women arguing that they want equal pay

0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.600
<v Speaker 1>for equal work. And a lot of the language they're

0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:41.920
<v Speaker 1>using sounds so similar to the stuff we hear now,

0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.280
<v Speaker 1>but it's it's from the Civil War era. It's these

0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.400
<v Speaker 1>women who worked in the federal government and they were

0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.840
<v Speaker 1>working secretary jobs basically, and these were jobs that were

0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.040
<v Speaker 1>held by men, and they were making half as much

0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.760
<v Speaker 1>as the men were, and they were saying, this is ridiculous.

0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:01.720
<v Speaker 1>We are doing the same work. But the reason that

0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.239
<v Speaker 1>they had been hired in the first place is because

0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.719
<v Speaker 1>they could be hired for cheaper There were only so

0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.920
<v Speaker 1>many jobs open to women, so any job a woman

0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.240
<v Speaker 1>can get, she was going to take for pretty much

0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.760
<v Speaker 1>any rates. So they were making less money. They got

0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.400
<v Speaker 1>hired because they could be making less money, and eventually

0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.160
<v Speaker 1>they were like, this is ridiculous, So they started petitioning

0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.280
<v Speaker 1>the government for equal pay. And so you have this

0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.720
<v Speaker 1>equal pay debate happening a hundred fifty years ago, which

0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.320
<v Speaker 1>is really fascinating to think about it in the context

0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.200
<v Speaker 1>of now where we still have not solved this problem.

0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.720
<v Speaker 1>And did you know about this before you worked on

0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.800
<v Speaker 1>the podcast? This letter is kind of lawre in the

0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.000
<v Speaker 1>equal pay world. I mean not law, but it's something

0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.920
<v Speaker 1>that if you do enough googling and researching, you come

0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.800
<v Speaker 1>across it. And so I decided I was decided that

0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.560
<v Speaker 1>there must be a story behind this letter. So I

0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.160
<v Speaker 1>went out and found a historian, Jessica Zappero, who wrote

0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.280
<v Speaker 1>a book about this time period and She told me

0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:01.000
<v Speaker 1>a lot about what was going on in this time,

0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.080
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of what happened actually lead to the

0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.120
<v Speaker 1>development of the way our economy is now and why

0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.640
<v Speaker 1>women do certain jobs and why those jobs pay less. Well,

0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.120
<v Speaker 1>it might be lore in the field of studying the

0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.040
<v Speaker 1>gender pay gap. To me, it was new. I learned something,

0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.319
<v Speaker 1>and I found that really interesting, so I appreciated that.

0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Let's fast forward to today. You also talk about some

0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.520
<v Speaker 1>of the arguments that you hear the people used to

0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.000
<v Speaker 1>try to discredit the pay gap and talk about why

0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.240
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't matter or why you shouldn't look at it

0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.360
<v Speaker 1>this way. What did you make of all that. There

0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.400
<v Speaker 1>are a lot of people who like to tell me

0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.080
<v Speaker 1>that I don't know what I'm talking about, and that

0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.640
<v Speaker 1>the pay gap is a myth and that it's not real,

0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.160
<v Speaker 1>and that it exists for reasons that make complete sense. Um.

0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.440
<v Speaker 1>I think these people basically say that when you control

0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.160
<v Speaker 1>for certain things like job type or hours worked or

0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.240
<v Speaker 1>having children, that the pay gap disappears, so we don't

0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.400
<v Speaker 1>really have a problem them. I have so many responses

0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.160
<v Speaker 1>to that. First of all, there's no way no matter

0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.560
<v Speaker 1>how much you control, there is always a gap between

0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:11.160
<v Speaker 1>what men and women make it never disappears. But I

0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 1>actually think it's worth considering that we have this data point.

0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:19.760
<v Speaker 1>We know that this number exists and it's persisted, and

0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.800
<v Speaker 1>I want to know why that exists, what does it mean?

0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.600
<v Speaker 1>And I think when you dig deeper, it isn't as

0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.360
<v Speaker 1>simple as just women are making choices to take lower

0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.640
<v Speaker 1>paying jobs. And I hope that you can learn that

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.200
<v Speaker 1>from the show. And the United States doesn't really have

0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.240
<v Speaker 1>this kind of push to address the pay gap that

0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:41.400
<v Speaker 1>the UK had, I mean they passed a law, of

0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.319
<v Speaker 1>the US is just sort of sitting around waiting for

0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.360
<v Speaker 1>something to bubble up, Is that right? Yeah, I mean

0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.400
<v Speaker 1>we do have some equal pay laws on the books.

0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.320
<v Speaker 1>Equal pay for equal work is a law and you

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:56.160
<v Speaker 1>can't discriminate. But yeah, there's no big transparency law or

0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.199
<v Speaker 1>anything like that. There are some state and municipal laws

0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.800
<v Speaker 1>that are taking some small steps to address the pay gap.

0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.640
<v Speaker 1>I'd say the most popular law right now are these

0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:10.880
<v Speaker 1>salary history bands. So this is cities and some states

0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.320
<v Speaker 1>that are saying you cannot ask people what they made

0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.560
<v Speaker 1>at their previous jobs. And the point of that is

0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:20.480
<v Speaker 1>basically because often women and other underpaid groups if they're

0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.240
<v Speaker 1>being discriminated against at their previous job, and then they

0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.360
<v Speaker 1>go to the next job and you're basing their salary

0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.320
<v Speaker 1>off their old job, You're going to continue perpetuating that

0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.760
<v Speaker 1>pay gap. So it's an attempt to kind of stop

0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.040
<v Speaker 1>that from happening. But this is not widespread and actually

0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.400
<v Speaker 1>the business community is really fighting it. Yeah, it's more

0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.120
<v Speaker 1>on a small scale anyway than a national scale. Now

0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.240
<v Speaker 1>there's one other country you delved into that's really fascinating

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.880
<v Speaker 1>because it's small. They have many women in influential positions,

0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:54.400
<v Speaker 1>and yet the paycup still hasn't closed. Tell us about

0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.200
<v Speaker 1>Iceland and why it hasn't been able to close the cap. So.

0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 1>Iceland has a lot of equal pay laws, some of

0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:02.960
<v Speaker 1>the ones similar to hear in the US. But they

0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.200
<v Speaker 1>have a new law that's pretty interesting. So whereas the

0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.720
<v Speaker 1>UK law is diagnostic, you know, it says this is

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.320
<v Speaker 1>the problem and hopes companies will just do something about it,

0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:17.560
<v Speaker 1>Iceland's new law actually compels companies to do something. So

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.960
<v Speaker 1>Iceland is requiring companies with over twenty five employees to

0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.600
<v Speaker 1>explain any differences between what men and women make, and

0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:28.080
<v Speaker 1>if explanation isn't good enough, the company has to fix

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the pay gap, and that can be by paying women

0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 1>more or cutting salaries, or doing whatever you have to

0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.560
<v Speaker 1>do to make that disparity go away. So, in one example,

0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.720
<v Speaker 1>the Customs Office found that it was paying men and

0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.880
<v Speaker 1>women in a certain office less money, and they had

0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.000
<v Speaker 1>this explanation for why because the men were close to

0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.440
<v Speaker 1>retirement and they had worked in the field and now

0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.960
<v Speaker 1>they were coming back to the office. And the Iceland

0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 1>was like, you know, no, it's not okay. You have

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.320
<v Speaker 1>to pay them the same. So that's something that is

0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:58.920
<v Speaker 1>taking it a step further. But it's a new law,

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.080
<v Speaker 1>so we don't really know how it will work. So

0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 1>we need some more time when we can get to

0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:09.680
<v Speaker 1>the paycheck part two to figure out how it's all working. So,

0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 1>after doing all this reporting and thinking about the solutions

0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.320
<v Speaker 1>that we've talked about, what seems to you like the

0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.520
<v Speaker 1>best way or ways to close the pay gap. Do

0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:24.080
<v Speaker 1>we need stronger laws, do we need stronger enforcement. Is

0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 1>it just a matter of having more women in the

0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 1>kinds of positions that would influence pay at employers? What

0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.280
<v Speaker 1>do you think? So this might be a not very

0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.840
<v Speaker 1>satisfying answer, but it's like all of it and none

0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.440
<v Speaker 1>of it, you know, So the forces that cause the

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.600
<v Speaker 1>pay gap, basically sexism, when you boil it down, are

0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.240
<v Speaker 1>very strong. And you know, no one law or one

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:52.160
<v Speaker 1>company policy is really going to be able to undo

0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 1>all the attitudes that we have about men and women

0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.360
<v Speaker 1>and what they're supposed to do. And I think that

0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.360
<v Speaker 1>there are a lot of laws that can help, and

0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm I think that I'm in favor of that. I

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.400
<v Speaker 1>think that companies need to do things, and I think

0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:09.040
<v Speaker 1>that more than anything is we need to change people's

0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:14.200
<v Speaker 1>attitudes and the way they view the genders in the workplace,

0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 1>which I realized as a very tall order. Do you

0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.159
<v Speaker 1>think they're changing. I think the one heartening thing is

0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.720
<v Speaker 1>that in the last six months we've seen how something

0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.800
<v Speaker 1>like Me Too has been able to change people's attitudes.

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.800
<v Speaker 1>And I don't know if we'll know the actual effects

0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:32.400
<v Speaker 1>of that, but I think one thing it has done

0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.440
<v Speaker 1>is shown that the experiences of women and men at

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.600
<v Speaker 1>work are different and that can affect their careers and

0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.200
<v Speaker 1>their lives. So at least we're starting to change that attitude.

0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.480
<v Speaker 1>Rebecca Greenfield, host of The Paycheck, thank you so much

0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.480
<v Speaker 1>for joining us on Benchmark. Thank you for having me.

0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.359
<v Speaker 1>I just wanted to urge everybody to check out The

0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.200
<v Speaker 1>Paycheck if you haven't already. As soon as this podcast

0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.959
<v Speaker 1>is over, go to iTunes, go to Spotify, where if

0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.359
<v Speaker 1>you find podcasts, search for The Paycheck on Bloomberg and

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.639
<v Speaker 1>listen to it. It's got six episodes. They're all fascinating,

0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:11.440
<v Speaker 1>they're all fantastic, and we're grateful for Rebecca to share

0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:24.119
<v Speaker 1>some of what she found on Benchmark. Benchmark will be

0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.480
<v Speaker 1>back next week. Until then, you can find us on

0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.720
<v Speaker 1>the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, our Bloomberg app, and

0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:34.560
<v Speaker 1>podcast destinations such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:36.840
<v Speaker 1>We'd love it if you took the time to rate

0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.520
<v Speaker 1>and review the show so more listeners can find us.

0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.359
<v Speaker 1>You can also check us out on Twitter, follow me

0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.280
<v Speaker 1>at scott Landman. Our guest, Rebecca Greenfield is at r

0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.480
<v Speaker 1>Z Greenfield. Benchmark is produced by topor Foreheads ahead of

0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.439
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Podcasts is Francesco Levie. Thanks for listening, See you

0:18:54.520 --> 0:19:04.200
<v Speaker 1>next time. Sunder Ba can hander for