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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the whitetail Woods. Present it by First Light, creating proven,

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand saddler blind, First Light,

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Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Mark Kenyon, and this week on the show, I am

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Speaker 2: joined by conservationist and author Ben Long to discuss the

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Speaker 2: tool skills and knowledge necessary to raise hell. All right,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you

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Speaker 2: by First Light. And before we get our episode going today,

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Speaker 2: I want to give you a really quick heads up.

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Speaker 2: Seems like a great opportunity. Now with that out of

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Speaker 2: the way, I want to tell you a story. So

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Speaker 2: this past weekend, I told my oldest son evert that

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Speaker 2: I was going to take him out on a turkey

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Speaker 2: hung Now, historically, I have taken him on turkey quote

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Speaker 2: unquote hunts many times before. And what that entails when

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Speaker 2: I've taken my young son is that we are just

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Speaker 2: out there in the field trying to call a burden.

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Speaker 2: It's been a lot of fun, but I've not gone

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Speaker 2: out there with a gun. We're not actually hunting. It's

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Speaker 2: just you know, like like a turkey adventure.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: He's been out there doing that with me since he

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Speaker 2: was I don't know, five months old. I remember the

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Speaker 2: very first time I ever took him out, he was

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Speaker 2: in one of those little like marsupial pouches on your

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Speaker 2: chest and we went out and actually just walked into

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Speaker 2: a field behind our house, and we could hear a

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Speaker 2: turkey gobbling off in the distance, and I remember yelp, yelp, yelpin,

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Speaker 2: and a turkey goblin and yelp, yelp, yelpin and turkey

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Speaker 2: goblin back and just seeing his little, tiny baby eyes

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Speaker 2: just get bigger and bigger and bigger. He had no

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Speaker 2: idea what was going on, but there was some bizarre

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Speaker 2: sound coming from the woods getting closer and closer. And

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Speaker 2: in the years since, you know, he's continued to get

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Speaker 2: exposed to that heading out into the spring woods, and

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Speaker 2: we've had some some really incredible moments. I think I've

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Speaker 2: probably told you guys this story a few years ago

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Speaker 2: about the time when we had it out onto one

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Speaker 2: of the properties at Hunt and ended up calling in

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Speaker 2: three gobblers. And on this particular day, he brought an

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Speaker 2: umbrella with him and we called the gobblers all the

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Speaker 2: way into you know, their approaching shooting range, and my

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Speaker 2: son was pretending that the umbrella was a gun, and he,

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Speaker 2: you know, he held a gun up and he was

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Speaker 2: whispering to me, Hey, Dad, you know, got take him yet,

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Speaker 2: And I'm whispering back to him, Oh gotta wait, wait

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Speaker 2: till they get closer. They get closer, and so he's

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Speaker 2: got his gun up, he's already, he's breathing heavier. I

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Speaker 2: can literally see him starting to shake. He's so excited

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Speaker 2: as these three toms coming close. They finally get into

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Speaker 2: shooting range in twenty five thirty yards something like that.

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Speaker 2: I said, all right, Everett, take him, and he says,

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Speaker 2: all right, Dad, I'm ready, and then he takes a

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Speaker 2: deep breath and then he just yells cpo and the

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Speaker 2: turkeys look up and he says copo again and they

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Speaker 2: go running off. I mean, we just had so many

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Speaker 2: great moments like that in the field and it's never

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Speaker 2: though involved like an actual hunt for turkeys at least,

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Speaker 2: so in this case, I told him, hey, you know, Sunday,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna go out there and see if we call

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Speaker 2: him burn and range and you can bring you know,

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Speaker 2: you can bring your BB gun if you want, and

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Speaker 2: we can you know, hunt for you know, squirrels or

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Speaker 2: something along the way, or you can just kind of

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Speaker 2: pretend holding your gun or whatever it is. And he

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Speaker 2: just started to cry, and I couldn't understand it. He

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Speaker 2: just started bawling and I was so confused. And you know,

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Speaker 2: after a few minutes and going to his bedroom and

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Speaker 2: kind of trying to pull him out of his bed,

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Speaker 2: he explained that no, he really wanted to be on

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Speaker 2: a real hunt this time. He wanted Dad to have

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Speaker 2: the gun, and we really wanted to get a turkey,

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Speaker 2: and he wanted us so so so badly, and I I,

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Speaker 2: I didn't even have my stuff ready. I didn't have

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Speaker 2: my license yet. I wasn't playing actually turkey hunting un

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Speaker 2: till next weekend. So we had to kind of explain

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Speaker 2: that and talk through all that, and I was finally

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Speaker 2: able to convince him that we could still have a

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Speaker 2: good time just going out there and trying to call

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Speaker 2: some birds and see what we can see and what

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Speaker 2: kind of adventure we might be able to have. But

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Speaker 2: he was so passionate about it, he was so excited

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Speaker 2: about it. He wanted the real deal. So I convinced

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Speaker 2: him we could still have a good time. We head

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Speaker 2: out there in the field. We worked our way down

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Speaker 2: this field edge and I was like, all right, buddy,

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Speaker 2: let's do a little uh, let's do a little crow call.

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Speaker 2: And he said, well, day, can I can I do it?

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Speaker 2: So I give him my crow call and he first

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Speaker 2: tries to buzz on it's just kind of like zoo,

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Speaker 2: and I tell him, you got to bite down a

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Speaker 2: little more and push through a little more power from

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Speaker 2: your lungs, and he does it again and gets a good,

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Speaker 2: you know, good baa. And then from the other side

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Speaker 2: of this hill there's a gobble and it's not that

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Speaker 2: far away. So we're both very excited. I'm so all right. Ever,

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Speaker 2: we got to sneak to the tree line, and so

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Speaker 2: we go. We just turn and we've only got twenty

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Speaker 2: yards maybe to get to the edge of these trees,

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Speaker 2: and there's a hill between me and where I think

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Speaker 2: this turkey is, and so we start cutting to that

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Speaker 2: fence row when all of a sudden, bam, there's the

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Speaker 2: turkey looking right at us, spins, turns away, runs off,

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Speaker 2: and in my head I'm thinking, ah, we just blew it.

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Speaker 2: We just ruined this experience that he was so excited

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Speaker 2: about having. He must be so disappointed. I looked at

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Speaker 2: him and he's just smiling. He say, Dad, Dad, Dad,

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Speaker 2: look at this. And I'm like, what do you be

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Speaker 2: look at this? Aren't you upset about the turkey? And

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Speaker 2: he points at the ground. He says, turkey poop. And

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Speaker 2: he was so excited we saw turkey poop. He wasn't

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Speaker 2: worried about the fact we just spooked this gobblerway. He

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Speaker 2: was so excited there was some poop on the ground

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Speaker 2: that he correctly, I'll mind you, or remind I'll inform you. Correctly,

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Speaker 2: he identified turkey poop on the ground. So we looked

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Speaker 2: at the turkey poop, and then like a couple minutes later,

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Speaker 2: we keep walking, say hey, Dad, you gotta look at this,

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Speaker 2: you gotta look at this. I'm stressing about the fact

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Speaker 2: we're not going to see the turkeys. And then there's

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Speaker 2: this purple flower and he's staring at this turkey, this

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Speaker 2: purple flower. And I am slowly as we go throughout

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Speaker 2: this morning, realizing more and more that there's something more

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Speaker 2: going on here. Even then maybe he understands, or that

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Speaker 2: I understand or expected, because we continue on. We continue

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Speaker 2: our walk, and you know, we're hoping here turkey's gobbling.

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Speaker 2: We're looking for turkeys. And then we see off from

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Speaker 2: the pond and here goes a couple wood ducks flying off,

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Speaker 2: and he can't believe it. There's ducks we just saw

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Speaker 2: two ducks. And he runs over there to the water says,

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Speaker 2: what about frog's dad, there's probably frogs in here. And

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Speaker 2: he's walking down this way and he's walking down this

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Speaker 2: way and he's looking for frogs here, and he's looking

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Speaker 2: for ducks there, and he's got this huge smile on

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Speaker 2: his face. And then we finally just said, okay, we're

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Speaker 2: gonna sit down and try to focus on turkeys for

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Speaker 2: a minute. At least that's what I was thinking. I

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Speaker 2: guess I'm thinking, Hey, we got to get down to

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Speaker 2: the job at hand here, so let's sit down. Let's

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Speaker 2: wait for a second, stop scaring everything and try to

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Speaker 2: see a turkey. So we sit down and I'm just

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Speaker 2: kind of getting him settled into a spot on this

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Speaker 2: tree next to me. He kind of leans up against

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Speaker 2: my shoulder and I sit down there and finally take

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Speaker 2: a deep breath, and then ever it looks over me

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Speaker 2: he says, hey, Dad, you know, I really like to

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Speaker 2: sit in one place if there's animals in front of us,

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Speaker 2: or if we're eating food. And I mean, that's there's

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Speaker 2: something amazing about the the just incredible authentic honesty about

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Speaker 2: a young child. He's five and I mean he's he's

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Speaker 2: spot on that. That sounds about right. That's about the

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Speaker 2: only time he'll sit in one place. Well. Fortunately I

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Speaker 2: did have something I'll pulled out of my pocket too,

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Speaker 2: Reese's eggs, these little chocolate and peanut butter filled half

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Speaker 2: eggs that you get for Easter. And I hand him

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Speaker 2: one of those to him, and he just turns and

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Speaker 2: he has this look on his face, just the only

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Speaker 2: you know, only only a five year old or a

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Speaker 2: six year old. There's this little kid that you love

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Speaker 2: with all your heart, turns, looks me in the eye

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Speaker 2: and says, thanks Dad, this is the best day ever.

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Speaker 2: And then bam. Turkey gobbled off of the distance back

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Speaker 2: behind us. That that day, that moment, that morning, The

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Speaker 2: whole thing from from his crying because he was so

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Speaker 2: excited about one expectation to us spook and a bird

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Speaker 2: when we finally went to him, not caring at all

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Speaker 2: because he was so exceed about about the turkey poop

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Speaker 2: from the flowers and the ducks and the frogs and

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Speaker 2: the reeses for all of that. That is why I

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Speaker 2: am raising hell for hunting and fishing and wildlife and

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Speaker 2: wild places. That is why we spent a whole month

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Speaker 2: talking about this stuff. It's for days like that with

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Speaker 2: my son Everett and his younger brother Colton. That's why

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Speaker 2: I want there to be clean water, healthy wild landscapes.

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Speaker 2: That's why I want there to be well managed public

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Speaker 2: lands and populations of healthy fish and wildlife and birds

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Speaker 2: and bugs and bees, a stable climate, clean air, the

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Speaker 2: continued privilege and the right to hunt and fish and

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Speaker 2: to explore these places. That's what I want for my boys.

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Speaker 2: That's why I'm doing this. That's why we're here. Can

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Speaker 2: you relate? Do you have a son or a daughter?

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Speaker 2: Do you want one someday? Do you have grandkids? What's

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Speaker 2: the future you imagine for them? What's the future you

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Speaker 2: want for them? Are you willing to fight for it?

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Speaker 2: For the sake of today's episode, I'm going to assume

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Speaker 2: that you are. I'm going to assume that if you

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Speaker 2: are here and listening to this, if you've listened this far,

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming that you are, just like I am, willing

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Speaker 2: to raise some hell to protect these things. And our

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Speaker 2: guest today is going to help us better understand exactly

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Speaker 2: how we can do that. The guy's name is and Long.

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Speaker 2: He is a journalist and a writer who's appeared everywhere

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Speaker 2: from Outdoor Life magazine to our very own mediator website.

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Speaker 2: He's a professional conservationist and a communications strategist who's contributed

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Speaker 2: to permanent conservation of This is pretty crazy. I need

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Speaker 2: to figure out a way to quantify what I do

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Speaker 2: the way they've done here. But he has directly contributed

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Speaker 2: to the conservation of more than one point five million

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Speaker 2: acres of land. And he's the author of a terrific

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Speaker 2: new book, The Hunter and Angler Field Guide to Raising Hell.

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Speaker 2: And it's this, this very aptly titled book which we

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Speaker 2: will be discussing today. We are going to dig into

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Speaker 2: the nitty gritty of how we, as hunters and anglers

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Speaker 2: can more effectively raise hell for the things we care

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Speaker 2: so much about. Now. If you are a part, or

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Speaker 2: a leader, or a founder of a hunting or fishing

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Speaker 2: or conservation organization, you're going to walk away today with

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Speaker 2: some powerful new strategies for building a movement, for influencing change,

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Speaker 2: for fighting for a cause, for rallying people to that cause.

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Speaker 2: But if you are just an individual out there who cares,

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Speaker 2: who wants to make a difference on your own, you

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Speaker 2: too will be armed with new tools and insights and

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Speaker 2: specific actions you can take that I think will make

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Speaker 2: you a more impactful individual and an advocate for hunting

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Speaker 2: and fishing in wild places. You know, over the course

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Speaker 2: of this whole last month, we've heard about many different

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Speaker 2: challenges facing all sorts of wildlife across the world. Today,

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Speaker 2: we've learned about, you know, some of the specific things

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Speaker 2: going on with white tails, which is our main focus

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Speaker 2: usually on this podcast, the good and the bad. What's

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Speaker 2: going on? What do we need to be thinking about?

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Speaker 2: Most recently, we dove deep into the nuts and bolts

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Speaker 2: of you know, what's probably going to be the most

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Speaker 2: impactful conservation related piece of legislation to hit this entire year.

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Speaker 2: We've learned a lot, but learning something, hearing something, thinking

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Speaker 2: about something, that's just a first step. It's all just

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Speaker 2: happening up between our ears. It's nothing if it never

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Speaker 2: ends up out of our heads and leading to something

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Speaker 2: real in the world. And that real thing that you know,

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Speaker 2: I think we got to hope that all this leads

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Speaker 2: to that real thing is action, action, action, action action.

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Speaker 2: We need to take action if we want to keep

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Speaker 2: our hunting traditions alive. We need to take action if

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Speaker 2: we want them to be fish for our kids or

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Speaker 2: grandkids to pull up out of the river of the

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Speaker 2: lake someday. If we want our kids to be able to,

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Speaker 2: you know, fall down crying because they want to go

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Speaker 2: chase turkeys for real, we need to take action if

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Speaker 2: we want to keep our forests and grasslands and swamps

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Speaker 2: and mountains and all these places around for us to

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Speaker 2: go hiker crossed or camp on or bike through, whatever

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Speaker 2: it might be. Action is the name of the game.

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Speaker 2: It's the necessary final thing that has to come to life,

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Speaker 2: and it can come to life in so many different forms.

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Speaker 2: There are many many different ways we can take action

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Speaker 2: and make a difference for all of these things we've

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Speaker 2: talked about, but it requires a first step. Any kind

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Speaker 2: of real change requires taking that first step. Any little

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Speaker 2: thing does help, Every little thing does get that ball rolling.

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Speaker 2: And I was just actually this past weekend with some

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Speaker 2: folks who were doing that very thing. They were getting

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Speaker 2: the ball rolling. We are up north northern Michigan at

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Speaker 2: an event that was a part of my working for

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Speaker 2: Wildlife Tour. This is the second event of our series.

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Speaker 2: This was in partnership with mucc A Terrific Michigan conservation organization,

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Speaker 2: and there were dozens of people there, dozens and dozens

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Speaker 2: and dozens of folks. I think it was their biggest

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Speaker 2: volunteer habitat day ever, full of folks who love hunting

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Speaker 2: and fishing and the outdoors, who were doing something good

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Speaker 2: with their hands right then and there. They were working

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Speaker 2: for wildlife. We were building, in this case small game habitat.

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Speaker 2: There were some cuttings going on to create new wildlife

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Speaker 2: openings and maintain the edges, the kinds like edge feathering.

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Speaker 2: There was a whole bunch of creating brush piles and

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Speaker 2: rabbit habitat, small mammal habitat. This was great stuff for

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Speaker 2: all sorts of critters, not just rabbits and squirrels and

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Speaker 2: shoot snakes, grouse, birds, deer, you name it. But more

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Speaker 2: than just the actual on the ground impact we were

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Speaker 2: making on that I don't know, twenty acres, thirty acres,

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Speaker 2: fifty acres, whatever, that ripple effect is out from those

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Speaker 2: actual places. I think what was extra exciting was this

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Speaker 2: sense of building momentum. You could feel literally tangibly feel

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Speaker 2: it when you talk to folks there, and I felt

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Speaker 2: it myself when we were engaging with each other out

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Speaker 2: there doing something. You could feel this energy, You could

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Speaker 2: feel the good vibes coming from taking some action. We

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Speaker 2: were actually doing something that was helping. Who weren't just

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Speaker 2: listening to somebody talk about how some critters disappearing or

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Speaker 2: how there's this threat to our hunting rights in this

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Speaker 2: state or that state. We weren't just hearing it and

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Speaker 2: worrying about it. We were doing something that in some

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Speaker 2: small way was helping move the needle. And that that

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Speaker 2: like switches some it moves some wires around in your

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Speaker 2: head and it reconfigures what seems possible. And I think

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Speaker 2: that action volunteering, you know, this past week, and I

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Speaker 2: think that can lead to the next thing. It can

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Speaker 2: kind of build you up, fortify you, refuel the tank

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Speaker 2: for the next thing and the next thing where you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's not building small inhabitat. Maybe that's just hate.

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Speaker 2: Some calls have got to be made. Or maybe the

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Speaker 2: next time it is, hey, we need people to show

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Speaker 2: up at this place and hold some signs, Or maybe

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Speaker 2: the next time is you know what, I really got

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Speaker 2: to tell all your friends and family that we got

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Speaker 2: to get out and support x or y or Z.

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Speaker 2: I really do see feel and believe in the power

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Speaker 2: of taking that first step of action and then letting

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Speaker 2: it snowball on down the hill. That's why I hope

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Speaker 2: you know more than anything else that after our chat

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Speaker 2: today you will feel armed and ready and willing to

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Speaker 2: do that, to take some kind of action, to start

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Speaker 2: raising some hell. Because I love this stuff. I bet

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Speaker 2: you do too. I bet you have not listened to

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Speaker 2: me rant for seventeen minutes unless you love this stuff.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: What is your why? What's your version of that story

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Speaker 2: I told at the top. What do you care so

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Speaker 2: much about that it keeps you up at night? What

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Speaker 2: is it about this wild world, wild creatures, hunting, fishing,

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Speaker 2: the outside? What is it that you can't imagine living without?

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Speaker 2: Think about that? See that, imagine that, and then let's

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Speaker 2: get to work. Let's do the work to keep fish

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Speaker 2: in the water, keep deer in the woods, keep wild

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Speaker 2: places on the ground, and hunters and anglers out there

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Speaker 2: enjoying them. Let's just do the damn thing and keep

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Speaker 2: the good times rolling, because that's our torch to bear.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: There are folks, over many, many decades in our past

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Speaker 2: that have done this work to provide and to have

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Speaker 2: kept what we have now here available. We only have

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Speaker 2: these hunting opportunities, these fishing opportunities, these critters, these places.

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Speaker 2: We only have it because other people gave a damn

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Speaker 2: and did the work ten years ago, fifty years ago,

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Speaker 2: one hundred years ago. We are those people.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: That's our job now, and that's I guess the message

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Speaker 2: that I want us all to have on our minds today,

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Speaker 2: during this conversation and as we leave it, as we

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Speaker 2: wrap up this month of conservation stories and lessons and

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Speaker 2: hopefully inspiration. Let's take this and carry it with us

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Speaker 2: throughout the rest of this year. Let's do that work.

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Speaker 2: Let's be those people that fifty years from now they

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Speaker 2: can point back to and say, hey, you know what,

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Speaker 2: we've got a pretty darn good because of them. So,

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Speaker 2: but I all said, let's get to my chat with

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Speaker 2: mister Ben Long, who is going to give us the

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Speaker 2: knowledge and the tools necessary to do it. Here we go,

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Speaker 2: all right here with me now on the show for

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Speaker 2: the finale of Conservation Month is Ben Long. Ben, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for doing this.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely happy to be here, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to get to chat. Finally. You know,

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Speaker 2: we've exchanged a few notes over the years, over the

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Speaker 2: over the web, and I've followed your writing for many

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Speaker 2: years now and really appreciated your contributions there. So I

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Speaker 2: just told you before we start recording. But when I

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Speaker 2: saw this book pop up on social media a few

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Speaker 2: weeks ago, I thought to myself two things. Number One,

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Speaker 2: I thought, dang it, that's the kind of book I

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Speaker 2: wanted to write someday, but I never got to it,

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Speaker 2: and now Ben beat me to it. And then number two,

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you Ben beat me to it

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Speaker 2: because someone had to cover this topic in a book

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Speaker 2: in a packaged way that someone could pick up and

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Speaker 2: get a good idea from beginning to end of how

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Speaker 2: to deal with these kinds of things, and I was

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Speaker 2: too slow to move on it. So so thank you

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Speaker 2: Ben for writing this book, The Field Guide to Raising

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Speaker 2: Hell for Hunters and Anglers. It's a great read, so kudos.

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Speaker 3: Well thanks. You know, it's a long time coming. It's

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Speaker 3: been a seat in the back of my head for

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Speaker 3: decades too. I've been lucky enough to you know, put

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Speaker 3: to be involved in various conservation efforts, oh gosh, for

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Speaker 3: thirty years, most of some of that beginning as a journalists.

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Speaker 3: And then the last twenty five is well, you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of a more of a on the campaigns themselves.

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Speaker 3: So I've I think I have never added them up,

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Speaker 3: but I've been involved in you know, had a front

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Speaker 3: row CD and about twenty million acres of conservation and

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Speaker 3: you know, and you know, don't mean to brag. I

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Speaker 3: was just part of the campaign. You know, it's not

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Speaker 3: like I did that all by myself. It's parts of

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Speaker 3: ucky to be parts of those campaigns and have a

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Speaker 3: view of how things worked and learned a lot along

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Speaker 3: the way and learned about a lot of things that

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Speaker 3: didn't work along the way. So I just wanted to

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Speaker 3: share that. So that's that's how I put it in

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Speaker 3: the pages.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So was there a moment for you? I mean,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like you said this has kind of been

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Speaker 2: slow burning in the back of your mind, but is

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Speaker 2: you know, was there any flash point or an incident

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Speaker 2: or something where you realized, Okay, I can't wait any longer.

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Speaker 2: This has to be in the world. Was there any

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Speaker 2: kind of moment or epiphany like that for you?

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Speaker 3: I mean the book itself, yeah, or the idea I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, I part of how I make My living

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Speaker 3: is by consulting with conservation groups on on the different

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Speaker 3: campaigns and goals. And I worked with backcountry hunters and

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Speaker 3: anglers on the Lanta Water Conservation Fund. That's probably going

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Speaker 3: back five or six years. And there was an effort

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Speaker 3: to well, they did, you know, reauthorize permanently reauthorized and

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Speaker 3: permanently fund the land of Water Conservation Fund. And I

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Speaker 3: worked with a bunch of leaders in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 3: A bunch of leaders from around the country from BHA,

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Speaker 3: and you know, did my usual routine of teaching people

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Speaker 3: how to create a message, how to speak to legislators, lawmakers,

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Speaker 3: and one of the you know, I had a little

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Speaker 3: one page handout and unbeknownst to me, one of the

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Speaker 3: one of the leaders went back to Pennsylvania and used

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Speaker 3: the same handout for convincing the legislator in Pennsylvania to

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Speaker 3: loosen up on the blue laws and to increase you know,

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Speaker 3: hunting access now hunting opportunities by ending the Sunday Van

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Speaker 3: on hunting and incrementally but made progress on that. And it,

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Speaker 3: you know, it brought to mind that the fundamentals of this,

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Speaker 3: the fundamentals of a good campaign work no matter what

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Speaker 3: you're trying to do. No matter whether you're trying to

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Speaker 3: influence a local county commission or a local hunting and

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Speaker 3: fishing or fishwats and parks commission, or whether you're trying

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Speaker 3: to get a built through Congress, you know, the basics

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Speaker 3: are just the same. And so I thought, well, let's

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Speaker 3: just capture that and something that that people can can

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Speaker 3: put in their pocket and and you know, you can

430
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 3: read it on an airplane when you're flying someplace, you

431
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: can read it on a commute, you can read it

432
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:13,959
Speaker 3: in an evening, you can refresh it. It's just supposed

433
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 3: to be accessible, and you know, just the fundamentals.

434
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what do you what's the the goal of this?

435
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: Like when you when you look at this book and

436
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: the materials you you compiled here, I mean there's a

437
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 2: lot of different articles and books and podcasts and films

438
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 2: that all tackle different aspects of you know, how we

439
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 2: engage in conservation work. With this specific project, you know,

440
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: I'm curious what your like dream goal was for this book.

441
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 2: What are you hoping that actually happens? Is this that

442
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: you're hoping that individuals use this to do a B

443
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: and C? Are you hoping that this becomes field guide

444
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: for organizations to do a B or C. What what

445
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: is it specifically that you're hoping comes out of this

446
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: or what does that success look like?

447
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the point of raising hell? And the field

448
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 3: guys they're ising hell? Right? Yeah, and so I you know,

449
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 3: if you look across you know of any any group

450
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 3: of people, but let's just say hunters in this case,

451
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: that there's a a a spectrum, right, and there's generally

452
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 3: three categories. There's like people who watch, like see what's

453
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 3: going on and like it, don't feel engaged. There people

454
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 3: who join who care enough to say, Okay, I'm going

455
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 3: to you know, become a member of my local rod

456
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 3: and gun club or Ducks on Limit or whatever. And

457
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 3: then there are people who do the people who like

458
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: actually go to the meetings, who knock on the doors,

459
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 3: who raise the money, who do that. And so I'm

460
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 3: hoping that this book Field guid They're raising Hell speaks

461
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: to all those people and like get more people inspired

462
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 3: to join organizations. You get the watchers to join, gets

463
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: the joiners to do, and gets the doers to be

464
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: more effective and to win. And so it's definitely you

465
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 3: know that's kind of the niche. You know, it's definitely

466
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 3: a niche audience, but it's this important one and I've

467
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 3: seen over the years how you know, the hundred angler

468
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 3: conservation voice is really what tips the scales in so

469
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: many policy issues. I've just seen that happen so many

470
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: times that you know, I'm a I'm a true believer

471
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 3: that this star voice needs to be heard because we

472
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: have a lot of common sense. We have a lot

473
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 3: of you know, boots in the mud kind of experiences

474
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 3: that people, you know, the people in power trust and

475
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: the people who want to make good decisions want to

476
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 3: hear from. So just trying to make people, you know,

477
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 3: spend less time crying in their beer and more time

478
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 3: making real positive change.

479
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I one hundred percent agree with you, And

480
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: I've thought about this a lot. I really do think

481
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: that the hunting and fishing community has a superpower as

482
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: far as the impact we can have on, you know,

483
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 2: especially on conservation or environmental or wildlife related issues. Because

484
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 2: you made a great point, we have that on the ground,

485
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: real world experience with the resource, with the animal, with

486
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: the place. That's and oftentimes unique compared to most other stakeholders.

487
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: But then another thing, I think and you tell me

488
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 2: if you think this is true or not as well,

489
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: but it seems like, you know, the other folks that

490
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: might be trying to raise hell about the environment or

491
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: a habitat issue or an animal wildlife issue, they might

492
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: be folks who traditionally fall into that environmentalist camp that

493
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 2: might be a little bit more left leaning, and so

494
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: certainly those appeals would be heard by the left side

495
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: of the aisle, but I think a lot of times

496
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: the right side of the aisle might ignore those folks completely.

497
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: And on the flip side though, traditionally, and I'm overgeneralizing here,

498
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: but traditionally the hunting and england community has that right

499
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 2: side of the aisle ear has their ear a little

500
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: bit more. And if all of a sudden, folks are

501
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: advocating for these environmental or habitat or wildlife related issues

502
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: to folks in the left from the traditional environmental community,

503
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: but then uniquely on the right from the hunting and

504
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: fishing community, that becomes something you can't ignore any longer,

505
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: I think, And that doesn't happen without us, would you?

506
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: Is that is that a fair assessment?

507
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 3: That's one hundred percent? I mean, it's it's you know,

508
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: we live in an era where partisanship is unfortunately very high. Right.

509
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: We live in a time of history when when you know,

510
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: everybody seems to be each other's throats, and everybody wants

511
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 3: to say, oh, you know that those guys over there

512
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: are wrong, they're bad from America and that's not going

513
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: to go way but they But still even so, like

514
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: seventy percent of the legislation that passes even these this

515
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: day and age, has to have by parsonan support, I

516
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: mean just just in the short term, just to get

517
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: it over the just to get it done, and in

518
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 3: the long term, it's absolutely critical to have broad public

519
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 3: support for any kind of conservation measure to be durable,

520
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 3: to last over time. Right that this the social buy in,

521
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 3: the social support. This is like hunting and fishing laws, right,

522
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: the idea that the chance of you and I getting

523
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: caught by game board it's a pretty slim. I can't

524
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: remember the last time I saw a game warden in

525
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 3: the woods, you know, away from the truck. But we

526
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: believe we have followed those laws basically because we understand them.

527
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: We understand why they're good for us, we understand why

528
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: you know that when people cheat on them, it hurts us.

529
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: And so that kind of broad social understanding, the social

530
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: buy in, in my opinion, is just as important as

531
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 3: as you know, winning at the end of the day,

532
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: because we happen to get more votes. But you have to,

533
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 3: you know, to create these policies. We do have to

534
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: get the votes, and it's not going to be a

535
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: good future if the things we care about are only

536
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 3: the you know, the venue of one or the other

537
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 3: political party. We have to you know, and then keeep,

538
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: there are people on both sides of the party, in

539
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 3: both sides of the aisle who are doing good conservation

540
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 3: work today and they all need to be supported for

541
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: that work. You know. A couple sessions are a couple

542
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: of episodes ago. You you interviewed my friend Doug Chadwick,

543
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 3: and you know, Doug Shawk talked a lot about you know,

544
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: kind of the big pictures and how a lot of

545
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: these you know, around the world. You know, there's a

546
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: lot of you know, the biodiversity crisis, and a lot

547
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: of nature's in a lot of trouble getting crowded off

548
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 3: the planet in a lot of places. But you'll look

549
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 3: at America and you look at like, Okay, so across

550
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 3: the across North America. A lot of bird species are

551
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: in a deep trouble. Grassland birds, for example, are in deep,

552
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 3: deep trouble. Uh, stage grouse, say, you know, prairie grouse.

553
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: You know, bubble links exists. All those are like on

554
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: this steep, steep decline. But you look at what class

555
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 3: of birds are doing very very well right now or

556
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: doing relatively well right now, and it's waterfowl, you know,

557
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 3: it's it's ducks and geese. And there's a reason for that,

558
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 3: right The reason is hunters and anglers, mostly hunters and

559
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 3: duck hunters. You know, early on recognize the value of regulations,

560
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 3: recognized the value of protecting wetlands, restoring wetlands. And you

561
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: know those wetlands are still facing a lot of challenges,

562
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: but we have an infrastructure for conserving them. We have

563
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: things like the North American Wetland Conservation Act, We had

564
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: the Clean Water Act, and you know, the duck hunters

565
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: were absolutely critical to getting that happening. And we're seeing

566
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 3: the real world effect isn't just like history. This is

567
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 3: like playing out now. This is the bright spot that

568
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 3: you know, Doug talked a lot about how worldwide, you know,

569
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: large carnivores are in dire straits and disappearing across the world.

570
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: But when you look at the United States, you know,

571
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 3: mountain lions are expanding their range, wolves are expanding their range,

572
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 3: black bears are expanding their range, wolf rings are expanding

573
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 3: the range. Why is that? That's because hunters and anglers

574
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 3: set the table with the prey species. Right, you're not

575
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: going to have those predators. And maybe some some hunters

576
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 3: wish we had fewer of them. But if you if

577
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: you like you know, large charismatic megafauna like wolves and

578
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 3: bears and lions, well you better be grateful that the

579
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 3: hunters and anglers have set the table for them so

580
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 3: they can they can thrive. And so I think we

581
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: do have that superpower you're talking about, and you know,

582
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 3: we're seeing in real time the benefits of that, and

583
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,719
Speaker 3: I think we need to, you know, really celebrate that

584
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: and tell those success stories because you know, the doom

585
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 3: and gloom does not motivate anybody. The things that motivate

586
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 3: people are the idea, the empowerment that yeah, we make

587
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 3: a difference and we do good things, and these little

588
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: things we do like putting up a wood duck box,

589
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: we do it enough, and we'll bring wood ducks back

590
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: from extinction and make them. Uh so that's a story

591
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: we need to tell it owns.

592
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's so true. It's it's interesting. I we've

593
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: got a little bit of a shifting baseline syndrome going

594
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: two different ways that I think can cause maybe some apathy.

595
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: And you bring up a great point that we need

596
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: to recognize, like what a success we have experienced over

597
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: the last one hundred years bringing back so many of

598
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: these animals, and recognize that, you know, right now, we

599
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: have folks I think there's a lot of folks who

600
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: are relatively young, you know, let's say, in their forties

601
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: or younger, who have never known a Michigan or a

602
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: Montana or a Georgia that wasn't filled to the brim

603
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: with white tailed deer, that didn't have all sorts of

604
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 2: turkey hunting opportunities, that didn't have you know, great clean

605
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: waters and terrific fishing opportunities. Like we are living in

606
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: the golden days for a lot of these critters. And

607
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: so I think sometimes if you're kind of stuck in

608
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: your little silo, like if you're just living in Michigan

609
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: or living in Montana doing your thing, hunting and fishing.

610
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: You might be feeling like, man, things are great. I

611
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: don't know why folks are worried. I don't know why

612
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: anyone needs to be raised in Hell. Because I'm seeing

613
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 2: a ton of deer, I'm having great deer hunting. I've

614
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: catching a lot of trout. And so there's this worry

615
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 2: that if we don't remember the past and the hard

616
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,439
Speaker 2: work it took to get to where we are now,

617
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 2: we won't keep doing that hard work. But then also

618
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: on the flip side, it's also easy to get focused

619
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: on like your you know, you can get stuck in

620
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 2: like my favorite species world and yeah, be so focused

621
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: on how great it is for white tails right now

622
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 2: that you completely ignore some of the other things you mentioned,

623
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: like songbirds, like grassland birds, upland certain upland species. You know,

624
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: there are these things going on. So it's this tricky

625
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 2: balancing act, it seems like, of appreciating what we have now,

626
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: remembering how we got here, not being gloom and doom,

627
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: but also recognizing that none of these things last forever,

628
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: none of them are guaranteed unless we stay on it

629
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: and keep raising Hell. Because even with the good work

630
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 2: we're doing. We are seeing these problems in this spot,

631
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: in this spot, in this spot. How do you balance

632
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 2: all that personally? For you, Ben, how do you deal

633
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: with that kind of phenomena that I'm describing here?

634
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 3: Yeah? Right, I mean I think that that, yeah, that

635
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 3: they're I mean, they're there. I mean I I'm guilty

636
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 3: of it because I you know, I've made a choice

637
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 3: and worked hard, been lucky to live in a place

638
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: where the water's clean, and you know, I mean nine

639
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 3: species of big game and living in the county where

640
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 3: I live, so you know, it's in a lot of

641
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 3: species that are rare elsewhere. So I can kind of

642
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 3: get that, you know, that kind of blinkered view too

643
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: of you know, And I to me that the issue

644
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 3: is engagement. I mean, I think that if people get

645
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: involved at whatever level, and I don't care what level

646
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 3: people get involved in the outdoors, you know, it's it's

647
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 3: a it's a lifelong process. It's an idea of like

648
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 3: oh this, I you know, I enjoy white tail deer.

649
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: I enjoy hunting white tail deer, enjoy watching white tail deer.

650
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 3: I want to learn about white tail deer. Oh I

651
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 3: didn't know that one hundred and fifty years ago, they

652
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 3: were almost you know, there was they were almost extinct,

653
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 3: but there were very very few of them. Why was that?

654
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: And then in my in my journey, you know, I

655
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 3: educated myself on that, read about that, learned about that.

656
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 3: That led me to other writers, That led me to

657
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: other history books, other you know, that led me to conservation.

658
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 3: And so I think that, you know, to me, like

659
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 3: the most radical thing you can do, if and the

660
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 3: most important thing you can do as a conservation is

661
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 3: just get young people engaged. You know, I've volunteered for

662
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 3: the first time this year as a hunter. Education in

663
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 3: structure is a great experience, and you know, I want

664
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: to do that to you know, make sure kids have

665
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 3: a safe experience, make sure we hunt on the US

666
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 3: on the hunting legacy. But I also do it because

667
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 3: I know it's so important. What's so important for me

668
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: to have time outdoors as a kid and as an adult,

669
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 3: and so to me that the I don't people are

670
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 3: going to explore this as their own journey and they're

671
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: you know, and be interested in what interests them, and

672
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 3: you know, if that leads them to you know, a

673
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 3: deeper understanding of one species, whether it's ducks or whether

674
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 3: it's white tails or whether it's you know, songbirds or whatever,

675
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: it leads them to so much the better. I mean,

676
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: there's plenty of work to be out there for everybody.

677
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 3: So I think, you know, to me, it's just like

678
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 3: get people started on the right track and good things

679
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 3: will happen. But it is, you know, I think if

680
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 3: there's a there's a real I believe in like strategic optimism.

681
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 3: I think that uh, you know, there's a you know,

682
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 3: we're it's a scary time, but it's always been a

683
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 3: scary time. Every generation has, you know, something looming over

684
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: over that. When I was a kid, you know, everybody

685
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 3: is concerned about transcontinental ballistic missiles in nuclear war, you know,

686
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 3: and now we have other concerns that are kind of

687
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 3: rising to the top. And it's easy to let those

688
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 3: things make us pessimistic or like cynical or like just say, oh,

689
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 3: how with it? It's unfixable. And maybe it's a personality thing,

690
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 3: but I just can't live like that. I just believe

691
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 3: I've seen that's like good people getting together make you know,

692
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 3: make a huge difference, and not like heroes, not big

693
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 3: rich people, not big powerful people, but just like every day,

694
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: every day folks.

695
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's one of the most one

696
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: of the best things about studying the history of this stuff,

697
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 2: of the hunting and fishing community, of our conservation past.

698
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 2: One of the best things about learning that studying that,

699
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, is just all of a sudden realizing

700
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: that real regular people have made a difference. Like none

701
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: of these things we have here today happened by accident.

702
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: They are not here by chance. They're here because folks,

703
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: that's like you or me and a whole bunch of

704
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 2: our buddies and a whole about bunch of folks who

705
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 2: cared about this stuff did something that's that's very encouraging

706
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: to me. That's empowering to when I'm feeling ever doom

707
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 2: and glow, I remember that.

708
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it can be. I mean yeah, you

709
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 3: have to have like what's the right scope to look

710
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 3: at things, right, I mean? And and if if we're

711
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 3: all like read the media and like doom scroll all

712
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 3: day long, and that's that's great, that's the world we

713
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 3: live in, that's our society. But you know that's not reality, right,

714
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 3: That's that's not what's really you know, wait to know

715
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 3: reality you got to get out and look at it.

716
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 3: You got to go and you know, tromp around and

717
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 3: you know, smell what's going on and look at the changes.

718
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 3: And I think that as soon as you get older,

719
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: I mean you'll see those changes. And you know we

720
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 3: all have. You know, change can be hard for anybody.

721
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 3: But there's like changes I see. I mean I can

722
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: just around here. It's you know, it's it's you know,

723
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 3: I can see a lot of things have changed, like

724
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 3: you know, like there weren't any wolves in Idaho when

725
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 3: I was growing up. Now there's speak of and now

726
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 3: there's lots of them. So there's changes like that. But

727
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 3: the habitat has changed so much, you know, so much

728
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 3: of the land has been the winter range has been

729
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 3: gobbled up with with subdivisions. The the weeds are much different,

730
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 3: the forest fires are you know, changed it. And so

731
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 3: you know, the changes will be in your face, you know.

732
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 3: I think, I don't think just the times we live in,

733
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 3: it's just like a very unstable time. So I think

734
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 3: there's there's always gonna be things that people can get

735
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 3: engaged about. And some of them are really big and

736
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: some of them are are not are more really local

737
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 3: and you know, different people are different appetites and different

738
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: levels for for grappling with however it is. But you know,

739
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 3: I believe in making it fun. I believe in like,

740
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: we're not going to do this if it's not rewarding,

741
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: and winning is a lot more rewarding than losing. And

742
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 3: that's that's what the Field Guide a help about it.

743
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: I want to get into how to win, how to

744
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 2: make a difference. But I do have one last kind

745
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: of foundational question, because you know this book is about

746
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 2: raising hell for it seems like you know four categories

747
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 2: of related issues that are important to our community. That's

748
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: you know, and you correct me if I'm wrong here,

749
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 2: But right, we could maybe bucket the types of things

750
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: we're talking here into something that might influence hunting and

751
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: fishing opportunity, something that might influence wildlife populations in general,

752
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: and something that might impact habitat. And so there's a

753
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: whole bunch of different possible targets out there. You brought

754
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: it up. These are unstable times. There are plenty of

755
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 2: things if you do them scroll enough, there will be

756
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: plenty of things you can find to cause you to

757
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: lay listlessly in bed at night and worry if you

758
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: let yourself.

759
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

760
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: So I'm curious, as you were writing this book or

761
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 2: as you're sitting here now starting to talk to people,

762
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 2: talk to people about this book, what's keeping you up

763
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: at night? Is there anything that in your mind you're thinking, Man,

764
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 2: I sure hope this book helps tackle X because I

765
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: personally am worried about this in our future. Is there

766
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: anything that stands out on that front?

767
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? You know a lot of people worry about you know,

768
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 3: like you know, the environmental is too far this way,

769
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 3: or you know, hunting rights is too far that way.

770
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 3: And you know, the thing that worries me is like

771
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 3: just people won't give a damn. The thing that worries

772
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: me the mo I don't think we're going to you know,

773
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 3: the thing that's gonna that's you know, just destroyed the

774
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 3: caribou and Idaho during my lifetime. That is destroying the

775
00:42:54,520 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 3: salmon in the steelhead that I grew up around. That's

776
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 3: you know, that potentially is going to destroy sage grouse

777
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 3: for example. You know, isn't that people that they just

778
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 3: people care, but most people don't. Most people, you know,

779
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 3: don't think about it all, don't know where their electricity

780
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,439
Speaker 3: comes from. And would rather, you know, save a few

781
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 3: bucks at the gas pump or a few bucks on

782
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: their electric bill, and and would write off a species

783
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 3: or an ecosystem because of that and change our hunting

784
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 3: and fishing opportunities forever. It just because they're ignorant or

785
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 3: because they just don't care. To me, that's the thing

786
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 3: that It's like, I just want to like get people outside.

787
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 3: I want to like grab them by the sort of collar,

788
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 3: drag them out of their cars, drag them out of

789
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 3: the city, and say, look at this, you know, look

790
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 3: at this place. You know, how can we squander this freedom?

791
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: How can we squander this beauty? And I think most

792
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 3: people don't want to, but they just they either feel

793
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: they're they're overwhelmed with the you know, the basics of life,

794
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 3: which I get it. They don't feel they feel like

795
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: the system is rigged. And I get that too. I

796
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: feel like that or they've just never been introduced to it.

797
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 3: And so that's to me, that's the saddest thing of all,

798
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 3: is just like people are just gonna just squander what

799
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 3: we have as far as our freedom to to hunt

800
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 3: and fish, as far as the habitat, you know. To me,

801
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 3: it's like the habitat is the foundation of it all,

802
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 3: just because they'll we stopped to say no, no, we

803
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 3: had a better vision.

804
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that that's on my mind a lot too.

805
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: And I guess that that I think sets up perfectly

806
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: this next portion of your book. I feel like our

807
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: conversation kind of mirrors your book in a way. Is

808
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 2: you kind of set that foundation in context at the beginning,

809
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 2: and then you move into the tactics, that being the

810
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: steps to success for tackling one of the issues or

811
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: mounting in defense. Yeah, I'm curious, first clarifying question of

812
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 2: sorts would you find that or when you were when

813
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: you're putting this together and you were developing these steps

814
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: for success? Is this equally applicable to an individual and

815
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: an organization?

816
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 3: You know?

817
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: Is this is this something that me, Mark Kenyon could

818
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 2: do something with this or is this more like, hey,

819
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: Mark Kenyon, if you want to get your local rod

820
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: and Gun club to tackle this problem, or if you

821
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: want to get your chapter of NDA or BHA or

822
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 2: Trout Unlimited to tackle this issue, or if you want

823
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: to you know, do something like that. You know, what's

824
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 2: the who are these steps most applicable to? Or how

825
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: should we think about these differently if we are in

826
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: one of those groups of the other.

827
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that it's both. I think the one

828
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 3: individual action is actually critical and like understanding strategy, you know,

829
00:45:55,080 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 3: just like not wasting your time on you know, on

830
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 3: rabbit holes, you know, but like focusing and all that

831
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 3: is super important if you want to make a difference

832
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 3: as an individual. At the same time, you're not, It's

833
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 3: just the nature of politics is you're not going to

834
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 3: get very far if you're only operating as an individual.

835
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 3: And you know, there's a lot of ways to do conservations.

836
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 3: The Field Guide focuses on, you know, policy, how to

837
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 3: change policies, which are powerful, powerful things. But it's it's either,

838
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 3: it's it's both. It's like, we need to act as individuals,

839
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 3: but we are social creatures and we are trying to

840
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 3: change social structure, social norms, and that requires working with

841
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 3: other people, whether you know it's an ad hoc a

842
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 3: bunch of friends trying to do something for their local

843
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 3: you know, the backyard, or whether it's you know, something

844
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 3: larger that's you know, pushing a bigger agenda across with

845
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 3: larger geography.

846
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. So so with that in mind,

847
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: then could could you walk me through these steps for success?

848
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: And if you if it's if you think this makes

849
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: sense to you, could we maybe walk it through with

850
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 2: an example as if like, okay, let's imagine that. I

851
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 2: don't know, like either you an example, imagine anything.

852
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I don't have to imagine. We got we

853
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: gotta get pullsed them out.

854
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 2: So we talked through through.

855
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 3: That and like these steps are and this is kind

856
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 3: of like the real meat of the book, Like you said,

857
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 3: the book has kind of some some you know, throat

858
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 3: clearing it first, which is kind of like a lot

859
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: of people in your audience probably know that already. Some

860
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 3: of the history kind of the you know, the fundamentals

861
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 3: of the North American model and the history of conservation.

862
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 3: And then the middle of it is this the steps

863
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: to successes, Like what is like the roadmap, right, like

864
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 3: how do we get to where we want to get

865
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 3: to and how do we get there? And this steps

866
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 3: I mean, I've just like I said, over twenty twenty

867
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 3: five years, this has really evolved. It's changed over those times.

868
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 3: But it's like these are the fundamentals. These are a

869
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 3: real good way to think about it, and you know,

870
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 3: the First, the first thing is is like deciding what

871
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 3: you want right, And a lot of campaigns fail because

872
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 3: the goal is just too amorphous, people want to do

873
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 3: too much, or people don't have agreement of what they

874
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 3: want to get done. They don't know what success looks like.

875
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 3: And so you know, dreaming is strategic, right, So like

876
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 3: the first thing that any anything is like oftentimes is

877
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: catalyzed around some a threat or a problem people see.

878
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 3: But you know, but the biggest successes are you know,

879
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 3: dreaming are like things that we want to see in

880
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 3: the future. And so that's you know that. And if

881
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 3: you if you haven't done that, if you don't know

882
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 3: where you want to go, you're never going to know

883
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 3: when you get there. And so I often tell people like,

884
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 3: imagine yourself sitting around a campfire in five years, you know,

885
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 3: having beers with your buddies and say, wow, we did that.

886
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 3: We really this is different and the world is different,

887
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 3: our state is different, our county is different because we

888
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 3: you know, because we cheat something and so what would

889
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 3: that something be? Yeah, and so uh, you know, you

890
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 3: can I guess. One example I'll use is and I

891
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 3: touched on it at the beginning of the book it's

892
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 3: a real place here in in northwestern Montana. I call

893
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 3: it Hubble Basin. In the book was really called Haskell Basin,

894
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 3: and my buddy Steve Thompson and I have have used

895
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 3: it for thirty years now. It's kind of mid elevation habitat.

896
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 3: It's timberland. It's right next to a booming ski town.

897
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 3: It's got you know, because it's you know, fairly early successional,

898
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 3: but really well managed. Timberland is good for whitetails, just

899
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 3: a really reliable place to find white tails. It's always

900
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 3: been open to hunting and fishing and trapping. It's it's

901
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 3: just a it's it's also a habitat for grizzly bears,

902
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 3: elk moose, black bear links. It's just it's just a

903
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 3: really neat, rich piece of habitat. And it's like I said,

904
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 3: it's like it's got the ski town that's just booming

905
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 3: with a you know, big trophy homes, big no trespassing signs,

906
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 3: big like I said, death by a thousand driveways, strip malls.

907
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 3: You know, you can you can see all around what's

908
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 3: going to happen to this land and around here. A

909
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 3: lot of the timber companies became real estate trusts and

910
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 3: have been selling their land as real estate. And we knew,

911
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 3: and Steve knew as a leader in this community, that

912
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 3: this this land was going to be on the chopping

913
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 3: block soon because everything around it was and it was

914
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 3: going to get sold. It's going to get sold for

915
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 3: you know, very high sk high scale what's the word.

916
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 3: I'm looking for upper scale trophy homes, you know, seasonal

917
00:50:54,800 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 3: trophy homes. And we're gonna get locked out, and it

918
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 3: was gonna lose a lot of havebat value and so

919
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 3: you know, so that that came Steve's goal, and it

920
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 3: turns out other people in the community had shared similar concerns.

921
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 3: But the idea is how do we maintain what we've got.

922
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 3: The goal would be we want this piece of ground

923
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 3: to stay as you know, roughly as it is. Of course,

924
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 3: change happens. You can't stop change. But we wanted to

925
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 3: remain open for hunting and fishing. We wanted to we

926
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 3: wanted we wanted we want to be well managed, we

927
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 3: want you know, to be to be taken care of.

928
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 3: We want to we want to be a forest, not

929
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 3: a subdivision. And so so that is the goal, right,

930
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 3: That's what the goal wanted. I mean, that's what the

931
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 3: what Steve wanted, and that's what his friends and I

932
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 3: wanted and so did. So that was the important thing

933
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 3: is to have that vision, you know, paint a picture

934
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 3: of the world that you want, and then lead to people,

935
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 3: show a path to lead people to that world. That

936
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 3: was the path we wanted was Haskell Basement remains in

937
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 3: tim in private ownership, but in in production. Yeah, the

938
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 3: working landscape. So that was the that's the first step.

939
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense, Yeah, it does. I like the

940
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: analogy used in the book about flock shooting about how yeah, right, right,

941
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 2: if you just try to shoot into the flock of

942
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: ducts coming through, you're you're oftentimes going to miss. You

943
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: need to be very particular. You have to pick one,

944
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 2: very specific target aim at that.

945
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 3: I learned that hunting truckers in northern Idaho. You know,

946
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 3: it's like you'd work all day climbing up out of

947
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 3: the canyon and you'd flush a you know, somebody twenty

948
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 3: five fifty birds in a flock sometimes and it's just

949
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 3: like the first few times I did it, I used

950
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 3: to just point the shotguns and start shooting and nothing falls,

951
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 3: you know, and then be with someone who knows what

952
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 3: they're doing, and they're picking a bird, picking a bird,

953
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 3: picking a bird, and they drop a triple and so

954
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 3: you know, that's that's totally right. I mean, it's all

955
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 3: the flock shooting, you know, is is is exactly what

956
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 3: people tend to do with you know, they are They

957
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 3: just have these kind of grandiose if we want to

958
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 3: educate the public about the importance of hunting, fishing, or

959
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 3: we want to you know, protect habitat and pass on

960
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 3: our legacies, like Okay, that's all great, those are all

961
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 3: great visions, but like, what does that look like in

962
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 3: the real world? Yeah, and people, you know, that's the

963
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 3: number one reason all these campaigns, a lot of campaigns

964
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 3: fail is because yeah, you know they they people don't

965
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:13,479
Speaker 3: know what they want.

966
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: Yeah I heard something.

967
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 3: But in that situation, basically we know what we want to.

968
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah I heard something, I don't I'm I wish I

969
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 2: could attribute this quote correctly, but I can't remember where

970
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 2: I heard it, So for forgive me if you're listening,

971
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: But I heard someone say once they you know, to

972
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 2: do something like this to make a difference, to tackle

973
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: an issue, you need to have a compass and a map.

974
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: So by that, you need a compass which points to

975
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 2: true North, so you know, like what you're what you're

976
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 2: actually shooting towards, what are you dreaming for? What is

977
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: your end goal? So you need that compass to always

978
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 2: make sure you're pointed in the right direction. But then

979
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: you also need a map, and the map gives you

980
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 2: the actual step by step directions of how do you

981
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 2: get to this place you're trying to go, Because if

982
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: all you do is follow true North, you're gonna hit

983
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: the canyon at one point and you're not gonna be

984
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 2: able to get across it. Or you're gonna hit a

985
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: river and you're not going to realize there's actually a

986
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 2: spot you could forward that river, you know, half a

987
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 2: mile down. So the map is like, okay, what do

988
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 2: I do next? What do I do next? Because I

989
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 2: know this absolute destination and here's the right way to

990
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: get to that destination. So you need these two things

991
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,479
Speaker 2: and you need them to be explicit. And I think

992
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 2: for any kind of campaign like this, any kind of

993
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: whether it's a local you know, fishing hole that you're

994
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 2: worried is going to get bought up and you know,

995
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,720
Speaker 2: become a pond of a trophy home, or if it's

996
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 2: you know, just trying to participate in some larger issue

997
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 2: that an organization is doing. I think thinking about this

998
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 2: and helping, you know, talking to leadership or as you

999
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 2: the leader, being very clear about defining that goal, defining

1000
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 2: those steps. It just seems so so crucial.

1001
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is. And it's amazing how much you

1002
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 3: know people just they you know, they know something's wrong,

1003
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 3: they know that there's something that can be fixed, but

1004
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 3: they don't know that something is yet. And this distraction

1005
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 3: is such because these things take time. It takes a

1006
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 3: lot of patience. There's so many corollaries between conservation and

1007
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 3: hunting and fishing in general, but you know, patience is

1008
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 3: one of them destroyed. I went on a I've saved

1009
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 3: up my money and went on a backcountry elkon, you know,

1010
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,399
Speaker 3: hired out through with horses to go way back deep

1011
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 3: in the bob something I always wanted to do. And

1012
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 3: you know, there's Mulder up there too, and I'm like,

1013
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 3: you should, you know, try to tell my buddies to

1014
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 3: buy a mule tag. He's like, no, this is an Elkhon.

1015
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 3: You know, Mulder season will be open, but we are

1016
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 3: focusing on elk and you know, it's a lot like that.

1017
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 3: It's easy to get kind of oh, I'll do this,

1018
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 3: but they need missed the whole point of the trip.

1019
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so true. So so we define very clearly and

1020
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 2: explicitly what our goal is, what we're trying to change

1021
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: in the world, what threat we want to address, whatever

1022
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 2: it is. And second step is then knowing your target audience.

1023
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 2: Can you can you talk about that?

1024
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 3: That's right? Sure, I mean, that's that's the thing is,

1025
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 3: we don't don't have to convince everybody. You know, our

1026
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 3: campaigns do not have to be like household names. We're

1027
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 3: not like McDonald's trying to sell Hamburgers on every on

1028
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 3: every street. Warner. It's the idea that we just have

1029
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 3: to talk to the people who we need to talk to.

1030
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 3: And so the key is, and it's really key and

1031
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 3: almost as key as knowing what you want to do,

1032
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 3: But it's like who matters, Who are the decision makers,

1033
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 3: Who are the people who have their hands on the

1034
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 3: levers of power, who have the who are going to

1035
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 3: make these changes? And that varies compared depending on what

1036
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 3: you want. If you want to create a ballot initiative,

1037
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 3: which we did in one of my first campaigns was

1038
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 3: a state wide ballot initiative in Montana to reform enforcement

1039
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 3: for game farm reform, and we try to reform you know,

1040
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 3: the game farm industry in Montana. You know, we had it.

1041
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 3: We our goal was to pass a statewide initiative. In

1042
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 3: order to do that, you have to convince fifty of

1043
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 3: the voters that year plus one to vote your way, right,

1044
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 3: So our target audience in that case was everybody who's

1045
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 3: going to vote in that election. I mean it's like

1046
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 3: two thousands and so that's a bit of you know,

1047
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 3: in the United States, if it's a larger election or

1048
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 3: a congressional thing, it's an even bigger scope. Right on

1049
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 3: the other hand, if like other campaigns I've worked on

1050
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 3: are like trying to get a county. You know, Montana,

1051
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 3: we have a lot of beautiful trout streams. People like

1052
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 3: to build their homes right next to the trout streams,

1053
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 3: and a lot of counties have created setbacks. So like's

1054
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 3: created a rule that in this county you have to

1055
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 3: build your house so much so far away from from

1056
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 3: the stream. There's a lot of good benefits from that,

1057
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 3: you know, for trout habitat and all flood control and

1058
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 3: all sorts of things. But let's let's get a county

1059
00:57:54,560 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 3: county zoning rule to pat to create this this this benefit. Well,

1060
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 3: in that case, your county commission is who you're trying

1061
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 3: to convince, and all you need is a majority of

1062
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 3: county commissions, and much of Montana and much of the country,

1063
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: county commissions are three people, so they have an enormous

1064
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 3: amount of influence in local communities. All you have to

1065
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 3: convince is two people that this is a good idea

1066
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 3: and they have the power to make it happen. But

1067
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 3: everything else funneled out of who are we trying to

1068
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 3: talk to, Who do we need to to, Who do

1069
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,439
Speaker 3: we need to convince? Who is the decider who has

1070
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 3: the power? Sometimes it's Congress and the President of United States.

1071
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's you know, two people on the local county commission.

1072
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 3: But that's that's absolutely critical because then that forms everything else.

1073
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a great point and easily missed though.

1074
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 2: I think, you know, like you said, it's so easy

1075
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 2: to all of a sudden think that you need to

1076
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 2: shout your message from the mountaintop to everyone. And I

1077
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 2: think there can be a lot of wasted effort and

1078
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 2: energy if you do that, and that being.

1079
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 3: Huge wasted energy. I mean, it's it's expensive, whether it's

1080
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 3: effort or money to get your message out there, to

1081
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 3: talk to people, and like you're gonna it's it's it's

1082
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 3: like one of the most time consuming, exhausting things of

1083
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 3: any campaign, and is the communications part. And if you're

1084
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 3: doing it to people who don't care, don't matter, you're

1085
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 3: just wasting your effort. And then the other thing people

1086
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 3: often do is is spend a lot of time arguing

1087
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 3: with their opponents. They spend a lot of energy. You know.

1088
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 3: It's kind of like our opponents sometimes are the the

1089
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 3: guy with the laser beam and where the cats chasing

1090
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 3: them around. You're chasing a little red light around. You know.

1091
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 3: It is like you waste a ton of energy and

1092
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 3: a ton of time doing that, and it's just a

1093
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 3: waste of time to it's and it's disrespectful and it's

1094
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 3: just it's just it's just not a good idea. It's

1095
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 3: it's they spend a lot of your time trying to

1096
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 3: convince somebody who's already made up their mind. Right. It's

1097
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 3: like I say, in the field, guys like it's like,

1098
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not going to convince you to eat

1099
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 3: a lot of tofu or to give up venison for tofu.

1100
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 3: I may not convince somebody that, like, you know, it's

1101
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 3: fun to sit in in a tree, you know, on

1102
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 3: a cold November morning when nothing's happening. I might not

1103
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 3: convince them either. But if you're looking for the open

1104
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 3: minded people, your audience is like this spectrum is like,

1105
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 3: you got your base of support. The people who know you,

1106
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 3: love you, will will follow you where you want to go.

1107
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 3: The people who are you know, who get it, who

1108
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 3: are inspired that. Those people are really important because you

1109
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 3: need those people to to do a lot of the

1110
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 3: hard work. But you also need the the the open

1111
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 3: minded people in a political contact often call that the

1112
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 3: swing voter. So the people who did it's getting smaller

1113
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 3: and smaller in politics, but it's different in conservations, like

1114
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 3: the people who just haven't thought about it yet, who

1115
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 3: just who who? Who? Who might be with you? It

1116
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 3: might be you know, might follow your way, might fall

1117
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 3: another way, depending on who who, Who's whose argument's best,

1118
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 3: who they feel most the inspired buyer compelled by and

1119
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 3: so those two people your base of support, and those

1120
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 3: kind of open minded people in the middle of the spectrum.

1121
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 3: Those are the people you need to spend time talking

1122
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 3: to the the people on you know, your dead set

1123
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 3: against that's just wasting your time.

1124
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we clearly define what we're trying to do.

1125
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 2: We then clearly define who is this target audience that

1126
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 2: has some level of influence over our issue and or

1127
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 2: who is this movable middle who is open to what

1128
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 2: we're trying to talk about the next thing that you

1129
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 2: talk about of importance is building coalitions. Can you can

1130
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 2: you expand on that?

1131
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's go. Let's go back to that example up

1132
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 3: up in here in northwestern Montana with my friend Steve

1133
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 3: and Haskell Basin. Steve likes Haskell Basin, I do too,

1134
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 3: because it is good hunting and you know, you can

1135
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 3: find huckleberries in the summertime morel's in spring. But you know,

1136
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 3: it's a good it's a good close spot where you

1137
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 3: can go after work and you know, right in the

1138
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 3: book the but but not everybody cared about that, right,

1139
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,919
Speaker 3: that's just you know, but so okay, So the goal

1140
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 3: they set was to create They talked to the timber.

1141
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 3: Timber company wanted to keep that that land in timber

1142
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 3: production because they had a saw mill to feed. But

1143
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 3: they were under a enormous amount of an economic pressure

1144
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 3: to sell the land because the profits were just that's

1145
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 3: where the profits were. So they figured out, well, if

1146
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 3: they got some piece of land, they could keep their

1147
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 3: board their directors happy, if they got some compensation for it,

1148
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 3: and then they could put a conservation easement on it.

1149
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 3: They could own the land but basically sell the development

1150
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 3: right so it would never be developed to the city

1151
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 3: of the local city there. So the goal was to

1152
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 3: create they have a local option tax, a local sales tax,

1153
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 3: and the goal was to create a local sales tax

1154
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 3: where the city would pay you know, everybody who shopped

1155
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 3: there would pitching a penny for every dollar to help

1156
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 3: support this conservation easement to basically pay the timber company

1157
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 3: so they could put it and it could afford to

1158
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 3: keep it to conservation easement and they could still use it.

1159
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 3: So that's the goal came about over a lot of time,

1160
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 3: a lot of discussions. So what are the different reasons.

1161
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 3: So if you if you just got the deer hunters

1162
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 3: to support it, that's not enough to get us to

1163
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 3: that crisp that threshold of fifty percent plus one. We needed,

1164
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 3: we needed more people, and so what did other people

1165
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 3: care about? And that again is like the key of

1166
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 3: knowing your audience, and then the challenge is to put

1167
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 3: yourself in the audience's shoes and say, why would they care?

1168
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 3: So what what's the big deal? And for the timber company,

1169
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 3: the big deal was that needed the timber supply. For

1170
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 3: the people who worked in the sawmill, and the people

1171
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 3: who sold you know, trucks to the logging companies, and

1172
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 3: the people who you know, the bankers and all that,

1173
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 3: they they are very interested in keeping that sawmill going.

1174
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 3: The local municipitality was very interested because that watershed, that

1175
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 3: basin actually was the source of their drinking water for

1176
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 3: this entire little city which was going under a lot

1177
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 3: of growth pressure, and they just pure, pure clean water

1178
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 3: comes out of it. If they had to like create

1179
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:31,440
Speaker 3: another water filtration system and develop another water source, that

1180
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 3: would cost taxpayers millions and millions of dollars. So you

1181
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 3: had these So you had the timber companies, You had

1182
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 3: the the hunters and anglers. You had the other recreationists

1183
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 3: who you'd like to use this land for mountain biking,

1184
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 3: across country skiing. You had the timber companies, and you

1185
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 3: had the city and the local taxpayers, and they all

1186
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 3: had their own reasons for supporting this plan. But they're

1187
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 3: all different, they're all individual and they don't necessarily have

1188
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:59,959
Speaker 3: anything to do with anybody. But they developed the camp

1189
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 3: pain that wrapped their arms around all of those different

1190
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 3: viewpoints and they put it to the to the to

1191
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 3: the local voters, and the local voters support that proposal

1192
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 3: by like the first time they did it was like

1193
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 3: seventy percent, and then the second time they did it,

1194
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 3: it was eighty five percent of the voters supported to

1195
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 3: tax themselves penny a dollar to protect this watershed. So

1196
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 3: that was a pretty cool example of like, you know,

1197
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 3: knowing what you want, knowing who has the power to

1198
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 3: make the decision, and then understanding how those people are thinking.

1199
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, power, strength, and numbers. When you build those.

1200
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 3: There's absolutely absolutely that.

1201
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 2: Group of folks, diverse voices, who are all working towards

1202
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 2: that same goal. All of a sudden, you know, the

1203
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 2: possibilities expand dramatically.

1204
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 3: Yep, And yeah, we just don't have the numbers. It's

1205
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 3: a simple mathematics game. I mean, there's a lot of

1206
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 3: people who hunt fish it's about fifty million people who

1207
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 3: hunt fish in the United States, but there's you know,

1208
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 3: hundreds of millions of voters, and even if we rallied

1209
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 3: all the hundreds of fishermen, we just don't have enough

1210
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 3: to get over that threshold of you know, fifty percent

1211
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 3: plus one. And uh, that's why we just just need you,

1212
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 3: just need you. Just there's no other way that we

1213
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 3: have to to build alliances.

1214
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like also like when when it

1215
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 2: comes to trying to influence policy makers too. You know,

1216
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 2: if there's only one contingent of folks who are advocating

1217
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 2: for an issue, you might be able to, you know,

1218
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 2: give them a cold shoulder. And maybe that's just a

1219
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 2: group of people that doesn't matter to that policy maker

1220
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 2: or to that commissioner, or to whatever. But if all

1221
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you are hearing the same thing from

1222
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 2: this group, and then this different kind of group, and

1223
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 2: then this surprisingly new perspective of you know, from a

1224
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 2: different group of people. If all of a sudden, you're

1225
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: hearing from here, here, here, and here, it becomes really

1226
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 2: hard to ignore because one of those groups or some

1227
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 2: of those will be in one way or another influential

1228
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 2: to you. And what your personal goals are as this

1229
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 2: decision to maker or whatever it might be. And I

1230
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 2: feel like this side, this coalition building step to success

1231
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 2: ties in really closely to the next one on your list,

1232
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 2: which is building and maintaining trust. I think those two

1233
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 2: things have to happen hand in hand to make it work.

1234
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 2: Can you expand on that next one and how it

1235
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:22,240
Speaker 2: kind of pairs with this, because if we're trying to

1236
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 2: build a group of people to address you know, this

1237
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 2: this issue, this challenge, whatever it is, you know, we

1238
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 2: have to build some cohesion within the group and then

1239
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 2: ultimately with that target audience too.

1240
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, it's all about credibility. And you know,

1241
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 3: credibility obviously is like the basic currency of communication. If

1242
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 3: if people don't trust you, you're sunk, right, if people

1243
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 3: think you're a weasel, you're not going to get anywhere.

1244
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 3: And so it's really easy to blow credibility. But that's

1245
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 3: you know, a crucial thing, and that's a crucial thing

1246
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 3: for like these where these relationships ships come up because

1247
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 3: not everybody is going to be credible on every perspective

1248
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 3: of He never underestimates the power Hunter's anglers. That is

1249
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 3: the side story we we worked in the Montana legislature

1250
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 3: this year, there were some some bills that would have

1251
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 3: handcuffed the local Fishing Game Agency, Fishwife and Parks from

1252
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 3: owning conservation eastmans, some you know, kind of small government

1253
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 3: Republicans thought, you know, physical conservatives that was like, why

1254
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:26,719
Speaker 3: are we putting money into this? And so there there's

1255
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 3: the bills that were gonna gonna you know, really cripple

1256
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:37,480
Speaker 3: our ability to protect access through conservations. And the legislator

1257
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 3: who well, my local legislator said, you know, he voted

1258
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 3: for the he voted against the bill. Is bad bill.

1259
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:43,920
Speaker 3: He voted against the bill, and he said, you know

1260
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 3: I would it was just up to me. I would

1261
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,639
Speaker 3: support this bill, but the hunters and anglers, the hunters

1262
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 3: are against it, and I am too old about run

1263
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:57,439
Speaker 3: the hunters, so I got to vote with them. And

1264
01:08:57,479 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 3: so it was like, you know, he they had credible

1265
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 3: that he cared about about that constituency enough on its own.

1266
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 3: But in that case, we you know, again we like

1267
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 3: these conservation diseasements are hugely important. They're huge important, hugely

1268
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 3: important for for for ranchers, for who you know, and

1269
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,639
Speaker 3: family farms and ranches are under a lot of stress

1270
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 3: in a lot of places. They're extremely important for the

1271
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,919
Speaker 3: timber industry. If the timberan trees can survive in Montana,

1272
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 3: these these easements are are key. And so we built

1273
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:30,599
Speaker 3: this coalition of of you know, the people who came

1274
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 3: a support on our side on this was you know,

1275
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 3: Montana Docroad Association, Montena Woodroduct Association, Montena Logging Association, Rocking

1276
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:40,799
Speaker 3: A Mount Elk Foundation, back countree hunters and anglers along

1277
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 3: with you know environmental groups like the Wild Montana, Montana

1278
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 3: Conservation Voters. All those kind of groups try to limit it,

1279
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 3: you know. So we brought all these different groups together

1280
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 3: and that together they had the credibility. And it's like

1281
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 3: I couldn't say as a as a a conservationist, writer, hunter,

1282
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 3: and you know, I can't say, oh, this is important

1283
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:08,800
Speaker 3: for the timber industry. You need the timber industry guy

1284
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 3: to say. They're the guy with the sawdust and and

1285
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 3: his you know on his shoulders, who like works in

1286
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 3: the woods and as you know, makes a payroll because

1287
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:18,760
Speaker 3: he's cut in two by four us. We need that

1288
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 3: guy to make that case. Nobody else can make that

1289
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 3: case for him, for her, And so you know, and

1290
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 3: and then and you have to have your facts right.

1291
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 3: We had that, We did the research. We we knew,

1292
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 3: you know, the how many acres, how many individual operators,

1293
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 3: whether there you know, AG operators or timber operators support

1294
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 3: these things. We knew how how many hunter angler days

1295
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 3: are used on these lands. You know, you get your

1296
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 3: facts right, but couch them in a larger story with

1297
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 3: compelling characters.

1298
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's there's no substitute for the credibility of

1299
01:10:57,160 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 2: real on the ground experience and having different voices that

1300
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 2: represent those aspects of the issue.

1301
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:07,400
Speaker 3: And to me, that's why it's one of the reasons

1302
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 3: it's so important to that we all as hunters be

1303
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 3: good ambassadors of the sport. Yeah, because people have a

1304
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 3: perspective often you know, misinformed about what h what hunting

1305
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:26,560
Speaker 3: is all about. And and you know, hunting is supported

1306
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 3: by most people, you know, things that we do hunting

1307
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 3: deer for example, for food and recreation, it's support like

1308
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 3: seventy five eighty five percent of America. It's hugely popular.

1309
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 3: So we have credibility, but we don't want to blow it.

1310
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 3: And people do trust us, but but they don't you know,

1311
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 3: But we need.

1312
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 2: More than just that yeah, and this really nicely than

1313
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 2: dovetails into the last of your major points, which is

1314
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 2: one that I spend a lot of time thinking about,

1315
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 2: uh personally, which is how do we communicate about these things?

1316
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 2: I have so many questions around how we communicate all

1317
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,640
Speaker 2: these things because because everything I mean, figuring out how

1318
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 2: to reach a target audience, figuring out how to build coalitions,

1319
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 2: figuring out how to build and main trust, all of

1320
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:14,439
Speaker 2: that is dependent on what your communication strategy is. How

1321
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 2: you're going to speak to people about this, how you're

1322
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 2: going to reach them, how you're going to educate them

1323
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:25,479
Speaker 2: or inspire them or activate them. There's there's so much.

1324
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 3: They find them right, Yeah, No, He's really complex, and

1325
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 3: again it depends. Every campaign is unique. I think generally,

1326
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 3: the the rules of thumb are that the most personal

1327
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 3: communication is the most effective communication. Right, there's no substitute

1328
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 3: for one on one sitting down and you know, face

1329
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 3: to face. That's just that's the best. That's just how

1330
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 3: human beings are are wired to be, you know. But

1331
01:12:58,200 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 3: then we can't reach very many people that way, so

1332
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 3: and we have to use the mass media, and of

1333
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 3: course that mass media is changing all the time. You know,

1334
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 3: everything from email change to social media platforms to you know,

1335
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 3: old old school media media like newspapers and opas and

1336
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 3: letters of the editor. Does are all have a have

1337
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:20,680
Speaker 3: a role, But it all comes back to where do

1338
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,679
Speaker 3: where do my where do my deciders? Where's my audience?

1339
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 3: Where did they get their information? And so like I

1340
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 3: try to understand that, try to understand like where, so

1341
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:33,760
Speaker 3: who do these people trust and where do that? What

1342
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:36,240
Speaker 3: what sources of information do they trust? And then go

1343
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 3: there and and you know, so that's the first thing

1344
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:45,639
Speaker 3: is like personal communication is best. Meet people where they are,

1345
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:49,560
Speaker 3: you know, don't try to meet them halfway. Understand their language,

1346
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:54,000
Speaker 3: understand their their values, understands their hopes and fears, understand

1347
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 3: where they're coming from, and go there, you know, don't

1348
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 3: try to you know, if if people don't understand why

1349
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 3: this is so important, we have to explain why it's important.

1350
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:07,680
Speaker 3: Don't assume that they know what we're talking about. You know,

1351
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 3: use the kind of language that they can understand, and

1352
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 3: try to avoid you know, the kind of jargon, the

1353
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:13,960
Speaker 3: kind of stuff that we can fall into.

1354
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:17,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like just jumping in really quick this

1355
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 2: and maybe I'm actually interrupting you before you bring up

1356
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 2: the next point.

1357
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,679
Speaker 3: But but when when.

1358
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:26,759
Speaker 2: It comes to this, I think it's such a great reminder.

1359
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,639
Speaker 2: It's so easy to not do this. Like I think

1360
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:31,639
Speaker 2: it's very easy when you have an issue you care

1361
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 2: about and you're trying to advocate on behalf of it's

1362
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 2: so easy to want to like bulldoze everyone with your

1363
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 2: perspective and be like, here's this thing, and this is

1364
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 2: why it's so important to me, and this is how

1365
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:43,880
Speaker 2: it's going to mess up my life, or this is

1366
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 2: how you can fix this thing in my life, and

1367
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 2: and and the person on the other side of that feel,

1368
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 2: you know, like you're running him over and why does

1369
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:56,599
Speaker 2: this matter to him or her? And I think one

1370
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:59,799
Speaker 2: example where this probably plays out, and I think something

1371
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 2: that is really important for folks listening who want to

1372
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 2: try to start taking action, like this is like what

1373
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:07,400
Speaker 2: we do and what we say when we talk to

1374
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 2: a congressman or woman, when we talk to one of

1375
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 2: our representatives, and we're if we're worried about an issue,

1376
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,920
Speaker 2: we want to reach out and share our perspective. I

1377
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:21,559
Speaker 2: think it's tempting to just be like, hey, Senator Danes,

1378
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 2: I think that you are doing this thing wrong. Or

1379
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 2: this thing or this thing, and I think that you

1380
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 2: should do X, Y and Z because this matters to me,

1381
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 2: and that making that phone call or sending that email

1382
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:35,840
Speaker 2: is better than nothing. But there might be a better

1383
01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 2: way to do that, which is meeting this person where

1384
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 2: they are and recognizing what shared common values they have

1385
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 2: with you. So maybe thinking about is you just described like, Okay,

1386
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:48,680
Speaker 2: what does Senator Danes say he cares about or what

1387
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:52,639
Speaker 2: does Senator Stabanaw say she cares about? And maybe let's say,

1388
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:55,559
Speaker 2: well with Senator Stabanaw here in Michigan, let's say, all right,

1389
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 2: Debbie Stabinow, you have talked so much about how you

1390
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 2: support agricultural interests, and you talk about the importance of

1391
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, helping folks on the ground, you know, with

1392
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 2: private land conservation and this thing and that thing. I've

1393
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 2: heard you talk about this, it's in your platform. Well,

1394
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 2: let me tell you about this issue that directly impacts

1395
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:19,519
Speaker 2: the well being of the farming and agricultural community and

1396
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:24,080
Speaker 2: also supports private land conservation of wildlife in our state.

1397
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 2: And this is why the farm bill might be something

1398
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:28,600
Speaker 2: that you know, you should be looking at. A B

1399
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:31,600
Speaker 2: and C. You're speaking to speaking to someone about the

1400
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:34,200
Speaker 2: things they've already said they cared about. You're talking to

1401
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:37,439
Speaker 2: them in their language, and all of a sudden, on

1402
01:16:37,479 --> 01:16:38,800
Speaker 2: the other end, they might be all to say, well

1403
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 2: to shoot, you know how, yeah, he or she's right,

1404
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 2: this does matter to me. And if that's a thing

1405
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 2: that matters to this other value I have, then I

1406
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:50,000
Speaker 2: need to take this seriously and look at this. It

1407
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 2: just seems like a much more effective way to reach people,

1408
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 2: not pounding them over the head with what we think,

1409
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:58,719
Speaker 2: but discussing about what.

1410
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 3: They care about, what they care about. That's exactly that's

1411
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 3: what I mean by he really encapsulated that. Well, it's

1412
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:07,760
Speaker 3: like meet people where they are. I remember being at

1413
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:10,320
Speaker 3: a cocktail party with the with the U. S. Senator

1414
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:13,479
Speaker 3: and he's no longer in the US Senate though we

1415
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 3: were talking about some issue and the guy next you know,

1416
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:17,960
Speaker 3: we're like trying to get him engaged, and he just

1417
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:19,519
Speaker 3: said the point playing because how votes to all this

1418
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:23,080
Speaker 3: bring me? And we hadn't we didn't have an answer

1419
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 3: to that question, like maybe a couple of I don't know,

1420
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:27,600
Speaker 3: you know, And it was just like this and this

1421
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:29,640
Speaker 3: conversation guy walked away and talk to somebody else. I mean,

1422
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 3: he was, he was just they are that they want

1423
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:36,760
Speaker 3: to know how this represents, how this benefits their constituency.

1424
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 3: How can they bring this home and say, this is

1425
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 3: one thing I did for my constituency. My voters, you know,

1426
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 3: are concerned about the plight of family farms and ranches

1427
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 3: in Montana. So by god, we got this provision in

1428
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 3: the farm bill that is going to or you know,

1429
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:54,400
Speaker 3: this is going to help that, or they you know,

1430
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:57,680
Speaker 3: got rid of this bad thing, you know whatever. They

1431
01:17:57,840 --> 01:17:59,800
Speaker 3: you got to be able to translate it back to

1432
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:04,720
Speaker 3: their constituency. And so that's that's that's exactly right. Like

1433
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 3: think about It's like back at Haskell Basin again. You know,

1434
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 3: if we went to the city council and said, hey,

1435
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 3: we need you to put millions of dollars. We're gonna

1436
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 3: tax a bunch of people because we really want our

1437
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:16,000
Speaker 3: white tail to your spot protected, we would have gotten

1438
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:17,840
Speaker 3: laughed out of the room who had never gotten in

1439
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 3: the room. But when we could go, hey, do you

1440
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:22,840
Speaker 3: know where your water comes from? Do you knowed to

1441
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:25,200
Speaker 3: how much that would cost to replace if you have

1442
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:29,479
Speaker 3: to replace that watershed? Have we got a parade for

1443
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:31,280
Speaker 3: you to get ahead of you know, we got to

1444
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:33,200
Speaker 3: you know, make it look like this is going to

1445
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 3: be a winner for you guys, you know, not like

1446
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 3: this is going to be something we want you to do,

1447
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:40,360
Speaker 3: something so onerous for us. But this is going to

1448
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 3: make you popular. This is going to solve problems for

1449
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:48,599
Speaker 3: you and your constituents. That's that's how you get people engaged,

1450
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 3: like so what you have to answer that question, so what?

1451
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:54,120
Speaker 3: And when the other thing is it's not all. The

1452
01:18:54,160 --> 01:18:57,400
Speaker 3: other thing people tend to do is dump a bunch

1453
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:59,800
Speaker 3: of facts on people's heads, right. I remember the first

1454
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:04,000
Speaker 3: came pain I go game farm reform campaign. I was,

1455
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 3: you know, I had been a journalist before that, and

1456
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:07,960
Speaker 3: I got hired onto that campaign. And the first thing

1457
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:09,800
Speaker 3: I did is write, we'll started writing white papers. You know,

1458
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:12,839
Speaker 3: I like wrote white papers on game farms and chronic

1459
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 3: wasting disease. And like I had white paper. I had

1460
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 3: a stack of white papers that like thoroughly research. And

1461
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:21,720
Speaker 3: the guy who was the leader of the campaign, Doug

1462
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 3: Mitchell I learned a lot from you know, took them

1463
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 3: all and said thank you very much for this hard work,

1464
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:26,639
Speaker 3: and like put them on the corner of the desk.

1465
01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 3: They stayed there. He says, Remember, he's got to speak

1466
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 3: to the heart first, it's the head second. And a

1467
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:35,000
Speaker 3: lot of us are like trained a certain way. You know,

1468
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:38,720
Speaker 3: we're trained to produce an essay and layout facts and

1469
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:41,840
Speaker 3: here's the here's the data, here's the counter data, here's

1470
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 3: the conclusion. You know, we're taught to think that way.

1471
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:48,000
Speaker 3: And you know, but that's not how people generally think.

1472
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 3: That's not what people People are motivated by their hearts by.

1473
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 3: I'm not just talking about like, you know, exploitably, you know,

1474
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:58,000
Speaker 3: pushing hot emotional hotbuns, but by understanding that people want

1475
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:03,479
Speaker 3: to engage from uh, from the place of their values,

1476
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:07,559
Speaker 3: from the place of their emotions, and that's where that's where,

1477
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 3: you know, you have to get people to open the

1478
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 3: door for the even will consider the facts. And that's

1479
01:20:12,439 --> 01:20:15,120
Speaker 3: just that's just human psychology. We need to know as

1480
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:16,200
Speaker 3: part of meeting people where they are.

1481
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's uh, something I've had driven home

1482
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:25,519
Speaker 2: in recent years, just the power of story and that

1483
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:30,240
Speaker 2: connecting through the heart. You know, there's uh, I don't

1484
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 2: know if this quotes exactly right, but it says something

1485
01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:37,160
Speaker 2: along the lines of, you know, the the greatest argument

1486
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:40,559
Speaker 2: in the world, the greatest set of facts, the most

1487
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 2: white papers, none of that's ever changed. In mind, the

1488
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 2: only thing that ever really has is a good story.

1489
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:48,439
Speaker 2: And and there's a lot of truth to that. Now,

1490
01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:53,040
Speaker 2: you can you can use facts and threats and tactics

1491
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:55,360
Speaker 2: and different things to build that story. But if there's

1492
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 2: not a narrative, if there's not the connective tissue of

1493
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 2: emotion that tie or values that tie into that, it's

1494
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 2: really hard to get someone to actually care and do something.

1495
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:09,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you think about it. It's just like

1496
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:13,640
Speaker 3: it's how human beings share information. It's like our you know,

1497
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:15,840
Speaker 3: and I think I think it ties directly to hunting.

1498
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:19,559
Speaker 3: I think, you know, with you imagine yourself as a hunter,

1499
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 3: you know, in the beginning of our species on the

1500
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 3: on the savannahs, like Okay, we're going to teach this

1501
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 3: person how to survive, you know, we're going to tell

1502
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:30,599
Speaker 3: them stories. And it always follows that same arc, you know,

1503
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:32,800
Speaker 3: like here's a problem, here's the rising, you know, the plot,

1504
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 3: the rising, drama, the characters, the setting, all that there.

1505
01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:39,960
Speaker 3: And you know, not every culture has you know, peer

1506
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:44,559
Speaker 3: reviewed our journals. Not every culture has bar charts or

1507
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 3: Iambic Pintamodra. But every single culture has stories. So we

1508
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:50,120
Speaker 3: you know, that's part of a good campaign has a

1509
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:53,000
Speaker 3: good story, and you let your audience become part of

1510
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:55,320
Speaker 3: that story, invite them to be a hero in that story,

1511
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:58,080
Speaker 3: and that's that's a hugely powerful thing.

1512
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:15,320
Speaker 2: I really like this formula that you end your section

1513
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 2: about communication with you describe, you know, kind of how

1514
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 2: to develop your messaging, and I think this is something

1515
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:24,519
Speaker 2: that you know, an individual could use when trying to

1516
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:26,960
Speaker 2: develop an email to a senator or a phone call,

1517
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:29,040
Speaker 2: or this could be used if you are trying to

1518
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 2: reach out to the general public to to engage your

1519
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 2: chapter members, or to engage you know, your community, or

1520
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:39,080
Speaker 2: to even as simple as a social media post and

1521
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:40,920
Speaker 2: you're trying to get your friends and family to rally

1522
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:43,559
Speaker 2: around this thing. Can you walk me through your your

1523
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 2: formula for that message.

1524
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:48,679
Speaker 3: It's it's sure, sure, so like like what is a message?

1525
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:50,519
Speaker 3: And you talked about compass and to me, a message

1526
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 3: is is kind of like a compass to keep point,

1527
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 3: keep you pointing the way I want to go. And

1528
01:22:55,720 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 3: it's every campaign has to have a message. It's just

1529
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:03,919
Speaker 3: it's just the fundamental part of every any any campaign,

1530
01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:07,800
Speaker 3: and it's it's a it's a statement that's designed to

1531
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,200
Speaker 3: influence the opinion or the action of your target audience.

1532
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:14,200
Speaker 3: And you need to hear that all the time. And

1533
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:16,320
Speaker 3: political walky talk it's like you know, are they on

1534
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:18,400
Speaker 3: message or off message? And the idea is like you

1535
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:20,120
Speaker 3: have something used to say and you want to get

1536
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 3: it across and you need to repeat it over and

1537
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:26,880
Speaker 3: over again. And so basically the components you have to

1538
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 3: answer the question of so what why does this matter?

1539
01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 3: And that's that's that's like the opening, like the bridge

1540
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:34,840
Speaker 3: to you to this person. I mean, I I like

1541
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 3: the example I use is like, uh, somebody came and

1542
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:41,439
Speaker 3: knocked on my door the other day because this is

1543
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:43,639
Speaker 3: a long time ago now, but knocked on my door,

1544
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:48,720
Speaker 3: opened the door and they said, hello, you have did

1545
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:50,720
Speaker 3: you have? You look like you have kids and there's

1546
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 3: toys all over the front or yes I And he

1547
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:57,679
Speaker 3: said and it looks like that do your Uh did

1548
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 3: you know that the kids in the neighborhood walking to

1549
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 3: school like because of this new subdivision, we have so

1550
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:06,000
Speaker 3: much more traffic on the street, and then that the

1551
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:07,920
Speaker 3: kid and the kids are almost getting hit on their

1552
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:11,040
Speaker 3: way to school. So no, I didn't know that. I said, well,

1553
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:14,880
Speaker 3: we want to have a crossing guard at this intersection.

1554
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 3: So that sounds like a good idea, And will you

1555
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:21,559
Speaker 3: please call the school board and call the city council

1556
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:23,800
Speaker 3: to make sure we get that crossing guard. Here's the

1557
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 3: number to call. Absolutely happy to do it. Thank you, goodbye.

1558
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:31,160
Speaker 3: That kind of exchanged. Okay, that message had that all

1559
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 3: the elements. It started out speaking to heart first, to

1560
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:38,280
Speaker 3: core values. That is, you know, my family, right, what

1561
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 3: what we the week? That's something we will go to

1562
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,840
Speaker 3: the wall force and thing we care deeply about. You know,

1563
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 3: there are things like that freedom, our community, our family, o,

1564
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 3: our prosperity. You know, those are the kind of like

1565
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:53,040
Speaker 3: what's the what, what's what matters here? Right? Opening with that,

1566
01:24:53,960 --> 01:24:56,200
Speaker 3: the second thing is what's the problem we're trying to solve.

1567
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:58,640
Speaker 3: What's the threat? It has to be clear, it has

1568
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:03,120
Speaker 3: to be understandable, and a certainly I could understand more

1569
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:08,560
Speaker 3: traffic going down the street, and so you know that's

1570
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:11,639
Speaker 3: the that's the problem I can relate to. I've seen it.

1571
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:15,000
Speaker 3: I not I have thought about it, but it's something

1572
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:17,680
Speaker 3: that makes sense to me. Then it's like okay, so

1573
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:19,640
Speaker 3: what do we do about it? Well, we have a

1574
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:22,879
Speaker 3: solution again, a common sense solution that's easy to understand.

1575
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 3: We're gonna put across the guard. It works, works all

1576
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:28,400
Speaker 3: over the town. We just need one here. And then

1577
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:30,200
Speaker 3: what are we going? Okay, great idea, what do you

1578
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 3: want me to do about it? We want you to

1579
01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:35,200
Speaker 3: call the city council, call the school board and make

1580
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:38,679
Speaker 3: sure it happens, which are easy for me to do. Happy,

1581
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:41,840
Speaker 3: happy to help. So had all those four components of

1582
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:45,200
Speaker 3: the values, the problem or the threat to those values,

1583
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:48,640
Speaker 3: the solutions, how we're going to fix the problem, and

1584
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 3: then the the ask, the empowerment, like what what can

1585
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 3: I do about it? And if you don't have all

1586
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 3: those four components, you don't have a message. And you

1587
01:25:57,360 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 3: need to go back to the drawing board and think

1588
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 3: it through. And it just again take it through from

1589
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:06,640
Speaker 3: the perspective of your audience and that that's that's the

1590
01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:12,600
Speaker 3: those that's the component of a message. It's and you know,

1591
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:15,599
Speaker 3: so do anyway that's that's that that works. And if

1592
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 3: you don't have them all, it doesn't work.

1593
01:26:17,439 --> 01:26:20,720
Speaker 2: It's such it's a simple thing like when we when

1594
01:26:20,720 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 2: I hear it out loud, or when I saw it

1595
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 2: in the page, it's like, yeah, of course, But I

1596
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 2: don't think that we think that all the way through

1597
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 2: most of the times when we're developing a piece of

1598
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:33,760
Speaker 2: marketing materials or a social media post, or or have

1599
01:26:34,240 --> 01:26:38,760
Speaker 2: planning a podcast or calling whoever. Like I think explicitly

1600
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:43,160
Speaker 2: calling out each one of those things is powerful. Like

1601
01:26:43,200 --> 01:26:45,920
Speaker 2: that little formula right there, I might get it tattooed

1602
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:49,479
Speaker 2: on my arm, ben because because it's so important.

1603
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:52,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like in a campaign, like I will, like

1604
01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 3: if I'm talking to a lot of reporters or a

1605
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:56,760
Speaker 3: lot of bloggers or whatever about it, I will like

1606
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:00,440
Speaker 3: take that as four bullet points value threat solution, and

1607
01:27:00,439 --> 01:27:03,679
Speaker 3: and I will put on an index card and tape

1608
01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:06,200
Speaker 3: it to my you know, to my phone or keep

1609
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:08,559
Speaker 3: it in my pocket. You know. So no matter what,

1610
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:12,040
Speaker 3: no matter you know, I'm I know what to say,

1611
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 3: I know where to go. And again, you need to

1612
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 3: tailor it for the audience. A lot of groups in

1613
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:23,600
Speaker 3: a particularly kind of waste, these classic environmental groups, you know,

1614
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:28,000
Speaker 3: have a have a habit of over emphasizing the threat

1615
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:30,519
Speaker 3: of like pounding the drama of like, you know, and

1616
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:32,599
Speaker 3: it kind of becomes the sky is falling kind of thing.

1617
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:35,639
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, yeah, people just tune it out. Yeah yeah,

1618
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:36,960
Speaker 3: we know there's those sorts of bad things in the world.

1619
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:38,439
Speaker 3: But what do you want me to do it. It's like,

1620
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,280
Speaker 3: so you have this, people over emphasize the threat and

1621
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:45,400
Speaker 3: underemphasize the solution. It's like, no, we have you know,

1622
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 3: and we don't have to solve the whole problem all

1623
01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:48,560
Speaker 3: at once. We're not going to solve all of the

1624
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:51,240
Speaker 3: biodiversity crisis at once, but by god, we can protect

1625
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:54,479
Speaker 3: this habitat, and that habitat is important. You know. We

1626
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:57,679
Speaker 3: may not clean up the entire Mississippi River of uh,

1627
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:01,000
Speaker 3: you know, runoff and pollution, but we can protect this stream,

1628
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:05,200
Speaker 3: we can protect this this headwater, we can connect this

1629
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 3: stream to that stream, and so you know, make it,

1630
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:14,360
Speaker 3: make it less overwhelming, make it, make it solvable. So

1631
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:17,280
Speaker 3: that solution. I I really think it's important that we

1632
01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:20,200
Speaker 3: spend more time emphasizing solutions in less time, you know,

1633
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:23,160
Speaker 3: drumming bad news into people's heads.

1634
01:28:23,240 --> 01:28:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so true. And that's that's something I've I've

1635
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:29,759
Speaker 2: thought a lot about, as you know, wanting to discuss

1636
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:32,000
Speaker 2: these things, wanting to bring these things to folks attention,

1637
01:28:32,080 --> 01:28:33,519
Speaker 2: but trying to figure out how do you do it

1638
01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 2: without losing people? How do you do it without issue

1639
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:39,280
Speaker 2: fatigue setting in? How do you do it without apathy

1640
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:42,840
Speaker 2: and folks tuning it out because Hey, I just want

1641
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:44,960
Speaker 2: to see big deer, I want to do this thing

1642
01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:47,000
Speaker 2: or that thing. And it's natural for all of us

1643
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:50,120
Speaker 2: to get war out by these things. But it's funny

1644
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:53,840
Speaker 2: you mentioned the same thing, and Jim Poswitz mentions the

1645
01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:56,120
Speaker 2: same thing, and you cite one of his essays in

1646
01:28:56,160 --> 01:28:58,759
Speaker 2: your book. And I talked to Randy Newberg about this recently.

1647
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:01,440
Speaker 2: He mentioned the same thing, and and it's this importance

1648
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 2: of of hope. You cannot effectively advocate or communicate about

1649
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 2: any of these things unless you also can can bring

1650
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:11,559
Speaker 2: hope to the table.

1651
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:15,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think yeah,

1652
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:18,960
Speaker 3: doom and gloom inspires people. Dooming gloom inspires people to

1653
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:22,160
Speaker 3: change the channel and turn you off doing gloom. If

1654
01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:24,679
Speaker 3: dooming gloom inspired people to save the world, we would

1655
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 3: have saved the world a long time ago, you know.

1656
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 3: But that again, that gets back to the superpower of

1657
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 3: hunters and angles is you know we've done this ship,

1658
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:34,960
Speaker 3: you know, we were in the you know, the bottom

1659
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 3: of the ninth on so many species and we you know,

1660
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 3: and we lost some, but we have showed how, you know,

1661
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 3: if you protect habitat, if you you know, get some

1662
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:51,240
Speaker 3: manners about how you treat these creatures, we can win.

1663
01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 3: And that is you know, that that was you know,

1664
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:56,840
Speaker 3: poss I don't know if you never knew pause, but

1665
01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 3: you know that's just his personality too. He was just

1666
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 3: a glowing, optimistic person and he just it was just

1667
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:07,519
Speaker 3: a jolly fight for him every time. I'm sure in

1668
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:10,400
Speaker 3: private moments that wasn't the case, but that's he just

1669
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 3: ex he just he just kind of bubbled with like, yeah,

1670
01:30:17,080 --> 01:30:19,479
Speaker 3: we can, We've done it, people have done it. Here's

1671
01:30:19,479 --> 01:30:20,960
Speaker 3: a story. I'll tell you how somebody did it. Here.

1672
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 3: You know, this is what really matters.

1673
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:24,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so powerful.

1674
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:26,519
Speaker 3: As with kids, you know, I'm really I'm really concerned

1675
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:29,559
Speaker 3: about kids these days and the messages were sending them

1676
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:34,160
Speaker 3: about their future and you know, I know there's a

1677
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 3: lot of data behind a lot of doom and gloom,

1678
01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 3: but it's it's not going to it's not going to

1679
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:40,880
Speaker 3: change anything.

1680
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:44,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I've been hearing about this phenomenon now they're

1681
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:48,000
Speaker 2: calling like doomerism. I think, yeah, and just this this

1682
01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:51,599
Speaker 2: idea that there's a growing segment of folks who are

1683
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:53,760
Speaker 2: just throwing their hands up and saying, ah, forget it.

1684
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 2: What can I do? There's nothing I can do. Everything

1685
01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 2: is going to hell and handbasket in this way and

1686
01:30:57,479 --> 01:30:59,599
Speaker 2: that way and this way. So I'm going to bury

1687
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,040
Speaker 2: my head and sand and play my video games or

1688
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:05,120
Speaker 2: or you know, just do my one thing, or just

1689
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:09,800
Speaker 2: hunt and fish and ignore everyone around me. And unfortunately

1690
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:14,920
Speaker 2: that might be therapeutic to ignore everything that's going on

1691
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:17,240
Speaker 2: around and not do anything about it, but it's it's

1692
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:19,360
Speaker 2: not going to lead to a practical outcome that's going

1693
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:20,760
Speaker 2: to be good for in the future either.

1694
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:25,080
Speaker 3: You remember that, You remember that Far Side cartoon where's

1695
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:28,000
Speaker 3: like the guys are fishing in the little rowboat and

1696
01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:30,759
Speaker 3: there's like a mushroom cloud going off in the horizon

1697
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 3: and goes you know what that means, Joe, It means

1698
01:31:32,560 --> 01:31:35,840
Speaker 3: screw the limit. It's just like I think it was

1699
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:37,720
Speaker 3: like people kind of do this like that kind of

1700
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:42,559
Speaker 3: end of the end times kind of nihilism, and it's

1701
01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:44,439
Speaker 3: just so cheap and easy, you know, it's so easy

1702
01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:46,439
Speaker 3: to be cynical. It's just like it just gives you

1703
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:49,240
Speaker 3: an opt out. This is like I don't have to

1704
01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:50,880
Speaker 3: work hard, I don't have to think about it because

1705
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 3: this is you know, and we all you know, we're

1706
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 3: all born to our point in history. We have no

1707
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 3: control over that. But I do believe the best is

1708
01:31:59,439 --> 01:31:59,920
Speaker 3: yet to come.

1709
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think I think history can guide us

1710
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:08,719
Speaker 2: and can inspire us. Like you said, like we're we're

1711
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 2: right there on the precipice, and we pulled out of it,

1712
01:32:11,080 --> 01:32:12,840
Speaker 2: and we saved a lot of these things, and we

1713
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:14,960
Speaker 2: are we have a much better situation than we could

1714
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:18,599
Speaker 2: have if folks didn't stand up and raise some hell

1715
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:22,040
Speaker 2: one hundred, one hundred and thirty years ago. And now

1716
01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:25,040
Speaker 2: it's it's our turn, you know, we I think I

1717
01:32:25,120 --> 01:32:30,800
Speaker 2: think there's something powerful in your identity and as a

1718
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:34,720
Speaker 2: hunter and angler, we can proudly point back to our

1719
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:39,240
Speaker 2: history of doing these things. People just like us, our grandparents,

1720
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:41,960
Speaker 2: the folks who lived in our community ten years ago,

1721
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:44,040
Speaker 2: fifty years ago, one hundred years ago, the people that

1722
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:46,400
Speaker 2: did this kind of stuff, cared about these kinds of things,

1723
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:51,320
Speaker 2: stood up, they raised hell, they acted, they did something

1724
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:55,120
Speaker 2: about it. And we have these amazing wild places and

1725
01:32:55,160 --> 01:32:59,439
Speaker 2: wild critters and hunting and fishing opportunities today only because

1726
01:32:59,479 --> 01:33:02,120
Speaker 2: of that, And we are the same people. We've got

1727
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:05,880
Speaker 2: that same DNA, we've got that same culture. We are

1728
01:33:05,920 --> 01:33:09,559
Speaker 2: those people now that I really hope fifty years from

1729
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:12,080
Speaker 2: now people will be telling stories about us. And I

1730
01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:13,920
Speaker 2: think it's true. I think it can happen.

1731
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 3: It's true. I've seen it, you know, and I'm getting

1732
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:18,599
Speaker 3: up there, but I've seen it in my I mean,

1733
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:22,559
Speaker 3: I've got local heroes, national heroes, and it doesn't have

1734
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:25,040
Speaker 3: to be huge, you know, it doesn't have to be

1735
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:27,120
Speaker 3: Teddy Roosevelt. You know, I think sometimes we get in

1736
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:29,240
Speaker 3: trouble like, well, it's it's the job of the president

1737
01:33:29,280 --> 01:33:31,000
Speaker 3: to do this. It's like all of our jobs to

1738
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:33,960
Speaker 3: do this, our job to create the pressure to force

1739
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:38,720
Speaker 3: the politicians to do it. Yeah, you know who uncle

1740
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:42,720
Speaker 3: Robbie Roosevelt was. Yeah, you've heard the story about rob Roosevelt. Right,

1741
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:46,720
Speaker 3: It's like Teddy's uncle who was kind of a philanderer

1742
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:49,200
Speaker 3: and kind of a playboy and not really very well respected,

1743
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:54,240
Speaker 3: but he took Teddy fishing, and he took Teddy birdwatching.

1744
01:33:54,800 --> 01:33:59,599
Speaker 3: When Teddy Roosevelt was a little boy and got Teddy

1745
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:02,960
Speaker 3: Roosevelt interested in the outdoors and went on to become this,

1746
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:06,960
Speaker 3: you know whatever. It was, conservation giant, President, Meglo Mayac,

1747
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:10,560
Speaker 3: all those things that Teddy Roosevelt was, But none of

1748
01:34:10,600 --> 01:34:13,280
Speaker 3: it would happen if if Uncle Robbie hadn't taken him

1749
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:17,599
Speaker 3: out fishing. And so it's not always the big it's

1750
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:21,639
Speaker 3: not always the the big powerful people who are important.

1751
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:24,000
Speaker 3: I mean, they are important, we need them, but it's

1752
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 3: you never know, you never know how these things we

1753
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:29,599
Speaker 3: do are going to play out and how they can

1754
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:34,240
Speaker 3: like have huge benefits for for generations to come. You know,

1755
01:34:34,280 --> 01:34:37,320
Speaker 3: that's just that's just beyond our ability to conceive sometimes,

1756
01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:39,840
Speaker 3: and to me, that's a hopeful thing. Yeah.

1757
01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:42,920
Speaker 2: And uh, and I'll say I'm very glad that we've

1758
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:46,640
Speaker 2: got a tool like this book to help us do that,

1759
01:34:47,160 --> 01:34:48,759
Speaker 2: to help raise some hell you old.

1760
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:50,519
Speaker 3: Guide to raise them hell. And it's fun. I mean,

1761
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:53,439
Speaker 3: it's it's it's conservation is fun. It's it's fun. It's

1762
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:54,960
Speaker 3: like a funny word. Maybe it's not the best word,

1763
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 3: but it's rewarded. It's like it's like it's not fun

1764
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:01,200
Speaker 3: to elk hunt and and you know, get up in

1765
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:03,519
Speaker 3: the middle of the night to climb them out and

1766
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:05,720
Speaker 3: then to pack eighty pounds of meat off your bag.

1767
01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 3: That's always fun. But when you slam the tailgate shut,

1768
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:11,599
Speaker 3: it's enormously rewarding. And it's the same thing with conservation.

1769
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:13,160
Speaker 3: There's a certain amount of work to it, there's a

1770
01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:15,960
Speaker 3: certain amount of drudgery to it, but my gosh, when

1771
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:18,599
Speaker 3: it works and you can sit back and say, hey,

1772
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:22,400
Speaker 3: you know, this place would be totally different, this little

1773
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:25,519
Speaker 3: piece of nature, this mountain range. And I've worked on

1774
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:29,759
Speaker 3: like six million acre projects up in the High Arctic.

1775
01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:34,960
Speaker 3: I've worked on one square mile projects in the outskirts

1776
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:37,680
Speaker 3: of Los Angeles, and you know, it's you're making a

1777
01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:40,960
Speaker 3: difference for people in the long run, no matter where

1778
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:43,880
Speaker 3: you are, what scale you're working on, and it's a

1779
01:35:43,960 --> 01:35:44,679
Speaker 3: damn cool.

1780
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:49,439
Speaker 2: Thing, awfully rewarding, that's for sure. Well, Ben, I wish

1781
01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:51,960
Speaker 2: we had another hour or two talk, because there's there's

1782
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:54,000
Speaker 2: a lot here that I love talking about and it

1783
01:35:54,080 --> 01:35:57,720
Speaker 2: is fun. But in the interest of me getting my

1784
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:00,559
Speaker 2: son to school in time today, we've got to it up.

1785
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:03,960
Speaker 2: But uh, I thank you, that's thank you so much

1786
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:04,400
Speaker 2: for your writing.

1787
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:10,599
Speaker 3: Sometime we can get together and talk talk, talk hunting

1788
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:14,400
Speaker 3: my tails more. But right now, I really appreciate it again.

1789
01:36:14,439 --> 01:36:16,800
Speaker 3: The book is called The Field Guide to Raising Hell

1790
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:18,880
Speaker 3: Hunter and Angler Field Guy to Raising Hell. You can

1791
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:24,360
Speaker 3: find it on Amazon, and I appreciate the chance to

1792
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:26,120
Speaker 3: talk about you.

1793
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:28,680
Speaker 2: You're very welcome and I can't recommend it enough. I

1794
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:31,760
Speaker 2: think it's a great tool for folks to look back

1795
01:36:31,800 --> 01:36:33,920
Speaker 2: on to be reminded how to do these things in

1796
01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:37,120
Speaker 2: a smart, thoughtful, strategic way, how to really make a difference.

1797
01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:40,160
Speaker 2: This book gives you the tools to do that. So

1798
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 2: go out, buy a copy and get to work.

1799
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:47,080
Speaker 3: All right, Thanks a lot man, keep up the great work.

1800
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:51,080
Speaker 2: All right, Thank you, my friends. I hope you enjoyed

1801
01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:53,840
Speaker 2: this as much as I did. I appreciate you being

1802
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:56,880
Speaker 2: with me on this journey. Over the last month. We've

1803
01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:59,840
Speaker 2: learned a lot. I think we've had to think about

1804
01:36:59,840 --> 01:37:04,479
Speaker 2: a lot of things. We've hopefully been armed with the

1805
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:07,960
Speaker 2: tools and the ideas and the knowledge and the skills

1806
01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:11,559
Speaker 2: to know what that next step is that we can take.

1807
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:15,600
Speaker 2: I think, as we talked about on the front end

1808
01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:20,240
Speaker 2: of this conversation, that to be a deer hunter today

1809
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:22,599
Speaker 2: or a hunter of any kind, to be an angler

1810
01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:26,160
Speaker 2: of any kind. It's going to require more than just

1811
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:30,320
Speaker 2: being good at shooting stuff or scouting or casting a

1812
01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:33,960
Speaker 2: line or set in the hook. That's all great and good,

1813
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,200
Speaker 2: and it's fun, and it's what gets us fired up

1814
01:37:36,240 --> 01:37:39,439
Speaker 2: and out there. But none of it, none of these

1815
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:42,120
Speaker 2: six hundred and fifty some podcasts I've done in here,

1816
01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:45,800
Speaker 2: none of it's possible unless we have the resource, the places,

1817
01:37:46,160 --> 01:37:50,960
Speaker 2: the deer, the creatures, the opportunities, the privileges, And none

1818
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:54,160
Speaker 2: of that is guaranteed. We are owed none of it.

1819
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:58,880
Speaker 2: We've got to fight for it. So let's raise some hell,

1820
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:02,080
Speaker 2: let's do some good work. Let's have a good time

1821
01:38:03,240 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 2: until next time. Let's stay wired to hunt.