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Speaker 1: An idea has taken hold of the public imagination. The

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Speaker 1: idea is that nature just keeps inventing crabs. Crabs are

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Speaker 1: just the ideal body plan and are incredibly beneficial. This

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Speaker 1: idea emerged from a review paper that was written during

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Speaker 1: the pandemic by a group of scientists led by doctor

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Speaker 1: Joe Wolf. But the thing is that the idea that

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Speaker 1: sort of emerged into the memo sphere is really quite

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Speaker 1: different than the idea that was initially presented in this

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Speaker 1: review paper. So today we have doctor Joe Wolf on

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Speaker 1: the show, and she's going to tell you about what

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Speaker 1: we actually know about how often the crab body shape

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Speaker 1: pops up in nature, and what we know about whether

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Speaker 1: or not that crab body plan is beneficial. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly's extraordinarily crabby universe.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm crabby

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Speaker 2: in the evenings.

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Speaker 1: Oh. Hi, I'm Kelly wieder Smith. I'm a biologist, and

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Speaker 1: I want to believe I'm not crabby in a like

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Speaker 1: Circadian rhythm sort of way. Maybe never. What is crabby, Daniel?

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Speaker 2: Like, I've just noticed that between me and my wife,

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Speaker 2: I tend to have more energy in the mornings, and

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Speaker 2: she tends to have more energy in the evenings, which

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Speaker 2: actually has worked out well as parents, because I get

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Speaker 2: up early and I'm ready to go, go, go and

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Speaker 2: get stuff done and help the kids with X Y Z.

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Speaker 2: And when it's like nine pm and the kids you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: by the way, I need forty five cupcakes for tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: Katrina's like okay, I'll spin that up, or like, let's

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Speaker 2: go buy these special shoes you need for tomorrow's activity

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Speaker 2: or whatever. So you know, as a team, it worked well.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I tend to be more tired in the

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Speaker 2: evenings and she tends to be more slow to move

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Speaker 2: in the mornings.

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Speaker 1: We also have that division. Zach is more of a

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Speaker 1: night person and I'm more of a morning person, and

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Speaker 1: so I'm the one who make sure everybody gets up

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Speaker 1: in the morning and we don't miss school, and Zach

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Speaker 1: is the one who when the kids are kind of

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Speaker 1: dragging their feet, he makes sure they get into bed

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Speaker 1: because I'm a zombie.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it funny how to get together you have to

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Speaker 2: have sort of those rhythms in common. But then to

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Speaker 2: survive as a parent, it's better to actually have the

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Speaker 2: opposite routines.

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Speaker 1: I mean for us, Like when I was younger, I

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Speaker 1: could roll with it, like I'd rather not stay up late,

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Speaker 1: but okay, final I'll stay up late. And even if

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Speaker 1: I have to get up early, I can do that too,

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Speaker 1: because I'm young and I can do anything. But now

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Speaker 1: like I can't deny my daily rhythm anymore.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that leads to the obvious and deep question,

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Speaker 2: which is when are crabs crabby? Do they tend to

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Speaker 2: be energetic in the mornings or what? Or crabs just

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Speaker 2: crabby all the time.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Probably depends on if you're harassing them

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Speaker 1: or not. They're probably crabby whenever you know, young kids

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Speaker 1: are trying to pick them up.

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Speaker 2: They just want to be crabs, man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just let them be crabs. And speaking of crabs

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Speaker 1: have been sort of all over social media since the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: and there's this idea that the optimal form for organisms

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Speaker 1: is the crabby shape. And so we had this great

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Speaker 1: question from a listener, and let's go ahead and listen

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Speaker 1: to that question.

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Speaker 3: Now, Hi, Kelly and Daniel, listen, what's the deal with crabs?

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Speaker 3: Why does nature keep reinventing them? Can we get a

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Speaker 3: new blueprint, maybe something with wings, crab wings. Anyway, I'd

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Speaker 3: love to know why some of Nature's designs get recycled. Thanks,

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Speaker 3: guys love the show.

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Speaker 1: So it turns out that I happen to know doctor Wolf,

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Speaker 1: who is one of the people who wrote the review

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Speaker 1: paper from which this Crabby Body Shapes meme emerged from,

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Speaker 1: and she's a little bit frustrated with how it has

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Speaker 1: sort of taken off in a sort of inaccurate way,

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Speaker 1: and so I invited her onto the show to give

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Speaker 1: us all the details of what we know about this

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Speaker 1: question and to sort of talk about how this idea

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Speaker 1: took off and went off in weird directions.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing that you know so many influential, famous scientists, Kelly.

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Speaker 1: I've just harassed a lot of people throughout my life,

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Speaker 1: I think, for various projects, and they've all just been

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Speaker 1: nice enough to keep talking to me.

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Speaker 2: That's wonderful. Well, it's really great to see friends succeed.

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Speaker 1: It is, yes, right, and Joe is at Harvard, which

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Speaker 1: is incredible, and so let's go ahead and start that interview.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Joe Wolf is a research associate in organismic and

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Speaker 1: evolutionary biology at Harvard. Welcome to the show. Joe. Hi,

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you here. And my husband

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Speaker 1: I've been talking to him. I was like, Oh, we're

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Speaker 1: going to ruin the crab thing, and he's like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna do the what planket thing, which is like

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Speaker 1: what he's sort of, you know, come to know me for.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so let's jump right in. So when you

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Speaker 1: hear folks say stuff like nature keeps inventing crabs, what

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Speaker 1: do they mean? And what are the crabby features that

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Speaker 1: are being honed in on?

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Speaker 4: Here, I'll answer the part about what the crabby features are.

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Speaker 4: I suppose this is something that's been and observed several

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Speaker 4: times within a group called decorpod crustaceans. So decor pods

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Speaker 4: contain probably the most crustaceans that most people are familiar with,

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Speaker 4: crabs as well as shrimps and lobsters. And what we

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Speaker 4: think that we understand when we see a crab, like,

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Speaker 4: everyone has an image of what they imagine, and that

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Speaker 4: is something that has a flat and wide carapace. Usually

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Speaker 4: it's kind of oval around shaped, right, and generally the

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Speaker 4: only thing that you see sticking out are legs and

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Speaker 4: cloths so unlike with a lobster, where it has like

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Speaker 4: this long abdomen and a tail fan sticking out, crabs

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Speaker 4: don't visibly have that. It turns out that they do

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Speaker 4: have the abdomen, but it's actually folded underneath the body.

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Speaker 4: So the folding that is kind of one of the

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Speaker 4: other major crabby features, and it actually covers up the underbelly,

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Speaker 4: if you will.

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Speaker 2: So the thing that makes something crabby are a flat

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Speaker 2: carapace and then eight legs. Basically no, no, all right.

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Speaker 4: Technically they do all have eight legs, but some of

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Speaker 4: them do not have eight visible legs, and some of

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Speaker 4: them that back there is super tiny, and sometimes it's

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Speaker 4: in a specified chamber where you couldn't see them.

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Speaker 1: Wow, all right, what are they doing in there?

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Speaker 4: They're like cleaning some of the more sensitive anatomy.

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Speaker 1: Huh yeah, okay, I didn't know that. Cool.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wish I had special invisible legs to clean

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Speaker 2: my sensitive anatomy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So this is actually one of the main differences.

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Speaker 4: So the idea that a crab like form has evolved

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Speaker 4: multiple times has been known for over one hundred and

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Speaker 4: forty years. And if we think about the tree of life, right,

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Speaker 4: so This is like how different species are related. It's

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Speaker 4: a bigger, an older version of the same thing as

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Speaker 4: us having a family tree. So in the crustacean family tree,

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Speaker 4: there are two groups which are each other's closest relative.

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Speaker 4: One group is called the true crabs and one group

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Speaker 4: is called false crabs. And so, Daniel, what you actually

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Speaker 4: mentioned is one of the main obvious ways to distinguish them.

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Speaker 4: True crab eight legs, false crab technically eight, but you

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Speaker 4: will only see six usually or less. Permit crabs are

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Speaker 4: part of that, and they usually only look like they

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Speaker 4: have four because actually the back two pairs are involved

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Speaker 4: in holding onto the show.

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Speaker 2: And is that an arbitrary labeled true crab and false crab?

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Speaker 2: Is there something just truer about one of them or

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Speaker 2: is there like a value judgment there or is it

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Speaker 2: like the remnants of an ancient argument among friends or what.

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Speaker 4: No, it's a colloquialism. They have Latin names, So true

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Speaker 4: crabs with brack eura and false crab with animura, and

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Speaker 4: that actually refers to basically the folded under ab.

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Speaker 2: It's really weird when you see an animal that's described

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Speaker 2: basically about what it's not.

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Speaker 4: You know, well, I think it's because within the false

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Speaker 4: crabs you see something that looks like a crab, but

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Speaker 4: they're not within the same group. So what that means

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Speaker 4: intert of the family tree is that the ancestral form,

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Speaker 4: or at least what we assume to be the ancestral form.

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Speaker 4: And definitely many of the forms within the enemure or

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Speaker 4: false crabs, many of those are elongate and they look

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Speaker 4: more like a lobster. So some of them look like

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Speaker 4: crabby and oval, and some of them look wrong and

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Speaker 4: have like this abdominent tail and the tail fan like

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Speaker 4: a lobster, which crabs don't have.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm feeling for the false crabs because I'm often

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Speaker 2: described by my teenager's friends as like Hazel's dad or

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Speaker 2: signs of the dad. I'm just like to find a

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Speaker 2: relation to somebody.

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Speaker 1: Else, something better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, something better. That's the implication right there, And

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Speaker 2: so feeling for these false crabs. I'm on the false

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Speaker 2: crabs team over here.

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Speaker 4: They're actually my favorite, so.

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Speaker 2: They're your favorite too. Yeah, there we go. The downtroden exactly,

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Speaker 2: the crab crushed under the foot of evolution.

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Speaker 4: They do have fewer species, so the true crops they

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Speaker 4: have at least seventy five hundred described species, and the

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Speaker 4: false crabs have like twenty five hundred. I'm saying described

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Speaker 4: because we don't know their true.

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Speaker 2: Diversity, and so you're talking about the various shapes of

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Speaker 2: these critters today, and then you're also talking about the

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Speaker 2: family tree. What is the relationship between these things? Is

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Speaker 2: their common ancestor also krabby or did they evolve crabbiness independently?

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Speaker 2: How many times has nature like invented crabs.

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Speaker 4: So they did evolve it separately. It's challenging because we

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Speaker 4: don't know what their exact ancestral look like. In order

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Speaker 4: to be able to do that, we would ideally have

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Speaker 4: many many fossils that came from the oldest point as

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Speaker 4: close to the divergence of those groups possible. They do

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Speaker 4: have a pretty good fossil record, but a lot of

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Speaker 4: the fossils are just the care pace. And the reason

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Speaker 4: for that is if you think about what happens to

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Speaker 4: a quarks, Basically, if you throw it in the water,

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Speaker 4: you know the parts that can fall apart will fall

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Speaker 4: apart or be scavenged. So pretty much what happened to

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Speaker 4: them is that. And so if you only have the

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Speaker 4: care pace. Upon is that we already know that things

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Speaker 4: that look similar in this group might not be both relatives.

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Speaker 4: We know that from modern groups whose DNA that we have.

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Speaker 4: So if we see something that looks similar and it's

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Speaker 4: only the care pace, we can't always be certain in

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Speaker 4: the fossil record, so that's kind of why we don't

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Speaker 4: know what their exact ancestors are. However, we can look

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Speaker 4: at least within the living groups at what their closest

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Speaker 4: relatives are, and that can kind of help. And so

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Speaker 4: within both the true and crabs we see krabby and

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Speaker 4: not so krabby forms. So actually what we see is

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Speaker 4: within the true crabs. Probably there's two instances where the

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Speaker 4: Krabby form has evolved. One is in a pretty small group,

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Speaker 4: which is kind of what we call the out group

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Speaker 4: to the rest, So that means that basically the first

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Speaker 4: branch that evolved from the true crabs. Within that group,

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Speaker 4: we see one set of sort of rounded little guys

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Speaker 4: that look like craps, and these are called the sponge crabs.

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Speaker 4: They're called that because they usually make a hat out

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Speaker 4: of a sponge and they wear it.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's so cute. I have a new favorite crab.

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Speaker 2: Now, why do they make a hat out of a sponge?

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess it makes good camouflage if you look

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Speaker 4: like an inanimate object a living thing, but nonetheless, hopefully

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Speaker 4: no one's gonna come ool with you.

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Speaker 1: Right, Do we have any tests to see if that

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Speaker 1: actually works, like if you take their sponges off or

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Speaker 1: you give them a better sponge. Has anyone actually shown.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I know I've seen some videos of

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Speaker 4: people making like out of kitchen sponges and seeing how

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Speaker 4: the crabs because they kind of like cut them up

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Speaker 4: a little bit of their claws so they can do that,

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Speaker 4: But I don't know if anyone's published a systematic test

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Speaker 4: of that. There are other groups that hold things on

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Speaker 4: top of themselves, like a hat. Hermit crabs technically are

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Speaker 4: kind of doing that, so they shove their back end

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Speaker 4: into it too.

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Speaker 1: I love that they're like cutting their hats to fit

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Speaker 1: the way that they want it. Anyway, this is very exciting.

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Speaker 1: I could talk about this for five hours, but maybe

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Speaker 1: we should keep going.

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Speaker 4: Right, So that's the first group, and then the other

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Speaker 4: group from the true crabs is there isn't a good

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Speaker 4: common name for but it's the majority of true crab diversity,

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Speaker 4: and I guess they can be called the higher true crabs,

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Speaker 4: although that's a value judgment, and it's just referring to

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Speaker 4: the fact that they share a common ancestor amongst themselves.

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Speaker 4: So the vast majority of true crab species fit inside that.

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Speaker 4: So that's like spider crabs, swimming crabs, decorator crabs, pretty

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Speaker 4: much all land crabs, most of the ones that people eat,

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Speaker 4: those are all within the higher true crabs or you

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Speaker 4: breck eree, So those guys are almost all having the

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Speaker 4: crapit for.

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Speaker 2: And when we talk about this history, is this recent history,

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Speaker 2: like this stuff has evolved in the last ten thousand years,

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand years. Are we talking hundreds of millions

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Speaker 2: of years or what's the timescale?

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Speaker 4: It's hundreds of millions, Yes, it's quite old. These guys

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Speaker 4: were and off pretty much around the time of the dinosaurs.

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Speaker 4: So if a dinosaur went for a swim, then they

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Speaker 4: might have encountered some crabs. Even there were some crabs

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Speaker 4: starting to go at least into brackish water environments also

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Speaker 4: at that time, so they could have met up.

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Speaker 2: I have the impression when I hear about a species

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Speaker 2: that hasn't changed in hundreds of millions of years. That

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Speaker 2: has sort of reached some plateau where like you can't

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Speaker 2: really improve very much. Is that totally falls And it's

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Speaker 2: just that the time scales so long, like in a

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Speaker 2: billion years, crabs will look different, or have we somehow

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Speaker 2: found some niche where it's really not going to change

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Speaker 2: much more.

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Speaker 4: That doesn't actually describe crabs, it's a term used to

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Speaker 4: describe horseshoe crabs. So I guess we've got to address that.

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Speaker 4: Elephant and horsy crabs are not a crustacean unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, they're false false crabs.

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Speaker 4: Right, yeah, yeah, they are. They're pretty much like interactive

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Speaker 4: like spiders and scorpions, and the way that we distinguish

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Speaker 4: different groups among arthropods. So archipods first of all, are

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Speaker 4: the animals that have jointed legs. So within the horseshoe

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Speaker 4: crabs and iraqeids those guys versus crustaceans, it's basically the

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Speaker 4: number of segments of their head that is the main

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Speaker 4: morphological way that they were first identified. And DNA data

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Speaker 4: also verifies that these are separate groups. So they are

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Speaker 4: at least five hundred million years different so horseshoe crabs Also,

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Speaker 4: although they are around it, they don't have the same

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Speaker 4: body parts as a crustacean, So they don't have this

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Speaker 4: abdomen that folds up underneath. When you imagine a crab,

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Speaker 4: it's not like this little taper bit and then a

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Speaker 4: long spine at the end. Right, there's like a middle

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Speaker 4: piece that crustaceans have that they don't have. So they're

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Speaker 4: a little similar, but I wouldn't personally describe them as

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Speaker 4: having the Krabby forma. Some people have said that they

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Speaker 4: do if they're trying to make a really really broad

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Speaker 4: ecological argument. People have also said that rais, you know,

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Speaker 4: like the sting rays, that they're like that too. Of

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Speaker 4: course those are vertebrates, so that's really different. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: if you want to get really broad, then there's a

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Speaker 4: lot more examples, but none of them have the abdomen

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Speaker 4: folding up, which is one of the features that I

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Speaker 4: think is really important.

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Speaker 2: But you brought up horseshoe crabs because they have sort

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Speaker 2: of stabilized on long terms and you don't expect them

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Speaker 2: to evolve.

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Speaker 4: Or here's the thing, they have been evolving the whole time.

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Speaker 4: Their morphologies are similar to fossils, But when we study

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Speaker 4: the DNA, they have been changing the whole time. So

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Speaker 4: the morphology what we see visually seems the same, but

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Speaker 4: they've been change so evolution has proceeded. I guess morphologically

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Speaker 4: maybe they are very suitable for life through a lot

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Speaker 4: of changes in the world, which is great. But no,

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Speaker 4: it's kind of a fallacy that they haven't changed.

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Speaker 2: Well, it would make more sense for evolution to be constant, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean the environment keeps shifting, right. Earth is not

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Speaker 2: the same, the climate is not the same, the other

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Speaker 2: critters crawling around the Earth are not the same, so

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Speaker 2: it makes sense for things to continue. I always thought

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Speaker 2: that was weird. So you're telling me the things are

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Speaker 2: constantly evolving, And so the idea that like crabs have

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Speaker 2: reached some final form is a misunderstanding.

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Speaker 4: It is. Yeah, so even within like the crustacean crabs,

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Speaker 4: the deck pods, so true in false crabs, to say

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Speaker 4: that they haven't changed even since the fossils, that's completely untrue. Actually,

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Speaker 4: they have huge rphological variety. Why there are so many species.

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Speaker 4: The horses youp grabually have four living species. But I

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Speaker 4: just told you that there's like eleven thousand living species

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Speaker 4: of crabs, and then there's also thousands of fossil species

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Speaker 4: as well that are no longer a lot, so they

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Speaker 4: have actually changed a lot. But it's true that there

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Speaker 4: are examples of organisms like the horship crowd that haven't

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Speaker 4: changed that much morphologically. So yeah, the true crabs as

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Speaker 4: well as the false crabs, they have been morphologically changing

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Speaker 4: as well in response to changes in their environment and

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Speaker 4: so on.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to pull us back a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So Daniel had asked you how many times nature invented crabs?

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Speaker 4: Right, I got to two of them, right, So the.

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Speaker 1: Sponge crabs and the higher true crabs are two examples.

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Speaker 4: So now we got to switch over to the false crabs,

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Speaker 4: which are Maya Daniel's favor. So those guys, they have

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Speaker 4: at least instances, and the probably the oldest instance is

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Speaker 4: what's called porcelain crabs. Those guys are little filter feeders

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Speaker 4: and they live mostly in core reefs or intertidle zones.

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Speaker 4: So if anyone lives near a beach, which in Irvine

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Speaker 4: you probably do, we definitely do, you could probably see them.

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Speaker 4: I went in a tide poole there I have definitely

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Speaker 4: seen them in southern California. So they'll look like a crab,

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Speaker 4: but count the number of legs and then you'll see

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Speaker 4: they're pretty small too.

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Speaker 2: We go to the tide pools all the time, but

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Speaker 2: we try not to disturb the little critters because I

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Speaker 2: feel like if everybody comes and like picks up a critter,

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Speaker 2: then we're just going to be like wiping out some population.

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Speaker 4: I think that probably is a safe bet. I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: recommend handling animals in the wild if you aren't going

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Speaker 4: to be very gentle. Obviously I have to do so

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Speaker 4: because I have to collect them for work. We can't

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Speaker 4: get the DNA if we don't capture and I'm sorry

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Speaker 4: kill them, I know. I mean, I'm a vegetarian, so

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Speaker 4: like I won't even a crab. I've never eaten a

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Speaker 4: crab in my life.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Even the ones that you capture and

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Speaker 2: kill for their DNA, well, you.

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Speaker 4: Got to put them in preservatives. So actually a lot

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Speaker 4: of them we do put in ethanol. So yeah, that

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Speaker 4: would be like making an alcoholic beverage.

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Speaker 2: But crab cocktail.

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Speaker 4: That would be disgusting. Like if you actually open some

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Speaker 4: of these vials, I know Kelly has done this, Like, uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, a little one is fine, but like some

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Speaker 4: are really big or like even giant squids are nothing.

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Speaker 4: You open them up, you can pretty much get high

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Speaker 4: off the fumes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know that Kelly has done this.

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Speaker 4: Is that what? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Kelly has snorted squid fumes. Wow, that is

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Speaker 2: something I've learned about Kelly today.

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Speaker 4: Well I've done it too.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't squid fumes, it was large quantities of preserved

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Speaker 1: fish vomit. But yes, you do get a little bit

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Speaker 1: sort of high sitting around these samples.

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Speaker 2: What does that go for on the street, Kelly.

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Speaker 1: Nobody wants it. Actually, it turns out.

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Speaker 2: Price is zero.

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Speaker 4: There were some samples that we did for one of

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Speaker 4: my projects that we had to dissect and we got

378
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Speaker 4: them from like the fish market. So actually my colleagues

379
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,399
Speaker 4: ate the parts that I didn't dissect. I had to

380
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Speaker 4: dissect them, but I didn't look at it. So yeah,

381
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Speaker 4: so you can't eat force and the crabs though they're

382
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Speaker 4: really small. But the other main one within the false crabs,

383
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Speaker 4: lots of people eat that's king crabs. So like Alaska

384
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Speaker 4: king crab that's really famous. That's not truly a crab.

385
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Speaker 4: It's false crap. Count the number of legs.

386
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Speaker 2: Not truly a crab. Oh my gosh. Yeah, taste pretty crabby.

387
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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. So those guys, they live pretty much white

388
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Speaker 4: bold waters. So the only way people are going to

389
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Speaker 4: encounter them without going out in a boat is if

390
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 4: you're in pretty much quite cold places, so like the

391
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Speaker 4: Pacific Northwest. I would say southern California. There might be

392
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Speaker 4: a few, but they're more common furthermore, so that's why,

393
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Speaker 4: like Alaska is one of their hot spots.

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Speaker 1: They've got their own TV show.

395
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Speaker 2: I don't know if we're just whims, but the water's

396
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Speaker 2: pretty cold hair in southern California.

397
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Speaker 4: Oh well, I am from Canada, so.

398
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Speaker 2: Do you call me a whim? That's why I live here?

399
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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. So then there's the third group within that

400
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Speaker 4: false crabs, and I hesitate to quality group because there's

401
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 4: actually only one species, which is the only species in

402
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 4: his family, so it's just weird. And it's this one

403
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 4: species called lomas Herca is the Latin name. The nickname

404
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 4: of it is the harry Stone crab, and it's ecology

405
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 4: is pretty similar to porcelain crabs. They're in the enter

406
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 4: title zone, but it only lives in southern Australia and

407
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 4: its claws look like giant mittens. I was supposed to

408
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Speaker 4: go to a conference in Brazil in twenty twenty. Of

409
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,679
Speaker 4: course that happened to the pandemic. But one thing I

410
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 4: was told is that at resilient conferences sometimes there's costume parties.

411
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Speaker 4: So I was planning to make giant mittens and wear

412
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Speaker 4: them on my hands to be this crab.

413
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Speaker 1: See there are some biologists that are fun at parties.

414
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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I don't know if people would think that

415
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 4: would fun, but you know my colleagues would ever. So

416
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 4: it's got that, and then the rest of it's kind

417
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 4: of camouflage to look like it's covered in algae and

418
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 4: it's brown, and then randomly it's got like these bright

419
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 4: blue antennae.

420
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Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it would help with camouflage.

421
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 4: No, I don't know what's up with that. It's not

422
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 4: super well known. So I actually did get a chance

423
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Speaker 4: to see this species in Tasmania. I went there a

424
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Speaker 4: little before the pandemic and I pretty much went with

425
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 4: the express purpose of finding this crab. So I'm texting

426
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Speaker 4: my collaborators, I'm like, oh, I'm going to find it.

427
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,959
Speaker 4: I'm going to find it. And it was like, you know,

428
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 4: because of the intertitle, you can only look for a

429
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 4: couple hours a day because the rest of the time

430
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 4: it's covered in water. It was like the last day

431
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Speaker 4: before I found them, I was kind of freaking out.

432
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Speaker 4: I was like, oh no, I came all this way

433
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Speaker 4: and I didn't and we got to them.

434
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: And what does it look like on the Crab Researcher

435
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 2: group chat when you finally find this elusive crab?

436
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 4: Well, we actually named the crab Researcher group chat to

437
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 4: I saw lo miss. I still call that years later.

438
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 4: Our chat is actually still called that.

439
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,959
Speaker 2: I love these little revealing elements of nerd culture, you know. Yeah,

440
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 2: there was a great moment when I made the scientific discovery,

441
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 2: and then there was an even better moment when I

442
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 2: gloated about it in the group chat.

443
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 4: So true.

444
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: Well, we're all happy for our friends when they find

445
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: the thing that they've been looking for.

446
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely absolutely shared joy.

447
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 4: Anyway, it got meiled back to the US to my

448
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 4: colleague in Miami, and eventually she extracted DNA from it.

449
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 4: We got our data very nice.

450
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: Yes, awesome. Yeah, Okay, so we have established that as

451
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: far as we know right now, nature has quote invented

452
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: crabs five times. And when we get back from the break,

453
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: we're going to find out if five is a big

454
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: number or a little number. And we're back. So Joe

455
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: told us that nature has invented crabs five times. If

456
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: you go on social media, you would think that nature

457
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: is just like constantly inventing crabs. Whatever that means. Should

458
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: we feel like five is a big number or is

459
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: five a like little number? In terms of nature inventing things,

460
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: I think.

461
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 4: It's a bit of a Goldilocks situation. So basically convergent

462
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 4: evolution where you see similar traits evolved multiple times in

463
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 4: different unrelated groups. This is actually pervasive. So one quite

464
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 4: famous example is echolocation, where both That's and Wales have

465
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 4: both people, so that's two times, and a lot of

466
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 4: the examples are two times. But there's also a lot

467
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 4: of examples that have a ton of times, so like

468
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 4: bioluminescence or having venom, those have evolved like one hundred times,

469
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 4: so there can be some that are quite a lot.

470
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 4: I think though, that there's something that makes crabs being

471
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 4: five times particularly interesting, and it's kind of because it's

472
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 4: not just the number of times, but you have to

473
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 4: think how long is the period of time in which

474
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 4: that's happened, Right, So crabs common ancestor between the true

475
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 4: and false crabs is something like three hundred million years ago.

476
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 4: So five times within.

477
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 5: Three hundred million years is actually pretty good, whereas bar

478
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 5: the un essence being one hundred times, and so that's

479
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 5: including all of life, like even back to here to

480
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 5: have violins, So that's billions of years.

481
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: So we need to consider like the denominator like out

482
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 2: of how many possibilities, and we need to consider the

483
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 2: time span, like how many opportunities are there exactly, And

484
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 2: so you're saying five is actually not that big a number, Well.

485
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 4: It's not that big a number, but it's also not

486
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 4: that small. So there are some other groups that are

487
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 4: much more recently involved, that have more groups. But one

488
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 4: thing that I think is interesting is that in many

489
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 4: of those they're so recent that there's not that much

490
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 4: variation in them to begin this. So, like one famous

491
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 4: group that's a model for studying competant evolution is a

492
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 4: group of lizards called annals or anolus, and they live

493
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 4: in the neotropics and on different islands within the Caribbean,

494
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 4: they have repeatedly basically colonized to the islands and evolved

495
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 4: multiple what's called eco types. So there's animals that live

496
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 4: on the ground, there's animals that live on tree and

497
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 4: higher up in the tree. Something like that need happen

498
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 4: multiple times every major island, so like four times at least,

499
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 4: probably more. And the thing is, though they can't do

500
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 4: much else other than that, they're always going to keep

501
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 4: doing that every island that they go to. I'm simplifying it,

502
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 4: but perhaps there is so much variation. So even though

503
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 4: we see the same base form with the flattened carapace

504
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 4: and the folded up happening multiple times, within that, there's

505
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 4: a lot of variety. They have spikes or not spikes,

506
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 4: the shape and length of their legs and claws, all

507
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 4: of this is completely changed many many times. So it's

508
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 4: kind of a good example in that regard too, because

509
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 4: when we want to understand evolutionary process, at least to me,

510
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: the reason to understand this is because we want to

511
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 4: explain variation. You can do things with analysts like experiments.

512
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 4: You can move them from one island to another and

513
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 4: then see what are going to do much harder to crabs,

514
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 4: but you know, we don't know what we're going to

515
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 4: get either necessarily perhaps, so it's kind of fun.

516
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: If this is an intermediate example of how often this

517
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 1: kind of stuff happens. What are your thoughts on why

518
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: everybody thinks nature invented crabs? Why is this the example

519
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: that like just took off and took over the internet?

520
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 4: So in the paper, and I think the oversimplified explanation

521
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 4: is that we often talk about potential adaptations because the

522
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: assumption is that convergent evolution is a case where an

523
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 4: organism has faced with the same environmental challenge and so

524
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 4: it's going to solve that challenge in the same way.

525
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 4: So the two main ideas for this to adapt to

526
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 4: are either being best able to escape from predators, either

527
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 4: by running away, or also because when you're folded up,

528
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 4: you're potentially a smaller target to be grabbed, I suppose.

529
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 4: I guess, like just think about if you're trying to

530
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 4: grab a crow versus if you're trying to grab a lobster.

531
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 4: There's a back end on the lobster and there isn't

532
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 4: on a crap, right, So that's one and then the

533
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 4: other idea is that it improves their locomotion, so like

534
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 4: crabs can walk sideways. I think it's more complicated than

535
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 4: that because some of the groups within, even in the

536
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 4: false crabs that don't have this folded up body, they

537
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 4: can sort of jet backwards, sort of swimming like, and

538
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 4: this is called like the tail flip escape reaction. It's

539
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 4: got fancy name, but it's just jetting backwards. And crabs

540
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 4: can't do that anymore when they fold up. They need

541
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 4: the tail to do that so they can escape in

542
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 4: a different way. I don't know which one is better.

543
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,239
Speaker 4: I think in science what we usually want to do

544
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 4: is we want to know if something is affecting an outcome,

545
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 4: we would have to do an experiment on it. And

546
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 4: there are biomechanical studies on how crabs walk, but none

547
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 4: of them are comparative, so there's no control you need

548
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 4: to look at. Is it a better performance at locomotion

549
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 4: or predator avoidance under the same conditions as a not

550
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 4: said crappy body and nobody has done that yet.

551
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: People keep saying nature invents crabs because that's great, but

552
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: we don't even really have great evidence that the crab

553
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: body shape is superior to other body shapes.

554
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 4: We don't know that. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised

555
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 4: if some of this was contributing to them, but it

556
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 4: may not be. We just don't have what I would

557
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 4: say is really strong evidence, and I wrote that in

558
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 4: this paper, but well, we'll get to that later.

559
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: I found it fascinating how different branches of science have

560
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: different abilities to sort of control the experiments. You know,

561
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: like in particle physics we can manipulate our experiments completely.

562
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: Astrophysics they just sort of watch what the universe does

563
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: and hope that it does something interesting that reveals some

564
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: thing here. You have some opportunities to like influence, but

565
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: you're not completely in control. But say you were somehow

566
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: you know God or could control the universe, how would

567
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: you set up the experiment to answer this question? How

568
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: would you definitively prove whether crabs are a good outcome

569
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: or not.

570
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 4: You have to have the hypothesis of what their outcome

571
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: is improving. So say you have the hypothesis that it's

572
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 4: going to make them that are at escaping from a predator. Right,

573
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 4: So you set up sets of tanks and you put

574
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,959
Speaker 4: a bunch of crabby bodies in one set of tanks,

575
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: and you put a bunch of long boys in the

576
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 4: other set of tanks, and then you put like a

577
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 4: big scary fish in every single one.

578
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: Long boy is not a sandwich, right, a sandwich.

579
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 4: To me, sorry, I mean like squat lobsters or something.

580
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: Then I'm thinking, like, you know, I'll have a long boy.

581
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 2: Hold the olive oil, please.

582
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 4: But all right, I think people do eat some of

583
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 4: the squat lobsters actually, like in the Mediterranean.

584
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything's in delicacy somewhere, right, fish vomit is like

585
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: very prized in the streets of some city around the world.

586
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 4: Exactly.

587
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about that one.

588
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: But all right, to get back to your crabby versus

589
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: long boy experience, I.

590
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 4: Yes, So then you put like a fish in there

591
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 4: or I don't know, something that you know will predate

592
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 4: upon them big scrap. You have a big tank because

593
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 4: you're gone, right, So you have a really big tank

594
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 4: and the only thing in it is the crab, and

595
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 4: you maybe give them some rocks to hide in or not.

596
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 4: Some will have rocks, some will have not maybe, and

597
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 4: you basically see what happens and how many times the

598
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 4: fish is going to catch the crab versus the elongated

599
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 4: body form. And so this could be one example of

600
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 4: doing an experiment like that. If they survive, then I

601
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 4: guess natural selection has turned out in their favor. If

602
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 4: they die, if they don't get to reproduce, so they've

603
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 4: been lifings.

604
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: Do we need to think even bigger though? I mean

605
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: somebody could say, well, that's survival in your lab in

606
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: an aquarium. Really the metric is like, have you survived

607
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: on the planet. So when you need to like create

608
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: one hundred or one thousand, duplicate Earth's branch evolution from

609
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: the same point or something, and like see whether you

610
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: get more fewer crabs on these planets? Like what is

611
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: the real test? Like infinite resources here?

612
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 4: This isn't specific to crabs, but there is something called

613
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 4: the game of life, and it's a simulation to evolve.

614
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 4: It's not like specific forms, but it's basically like little

615
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 4: ask you guys or something.

616
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: It's a little cellular automata.

617
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, okay, so you know, yeah.

618
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's famous in programming circles.

619
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 4: I would say that's actually the infinite resources explanation. It's

620
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 4: not going to tell you isn't crabs specifically, but maybe

621
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 4: you could add like a new package this programming thing

622
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 4: it was invented like twenty or thirty years ago. Maybe

623
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 4: make it a little more sophisticated now specifically crabby. Maybe

624
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 4: there's a way to do this as a simulation.

625
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: Well, that's fascinating you bring that up, because in the

626
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: game of life, they've observed these self sustaining little systems.

627
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: And for those of you who aren't familiar, there's like

628
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: very simple rules about whether a cell has something in

629
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: it or not, whether it eats something or moves or whatever.

630
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: And there are these emergent structures that people have discovered,

631
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: and some of them they call a crab. In this case,

632
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: it's called the diagonal spaceship sort of looks a little crabby,

633
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: And I don't know if it really would qualify as

634
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: a crab or a false crab, or as a digital

635
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: crab or whatever, or if it's just sort of inspired

636
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: by this, you know, sort of concept out there that

637
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: everything turns into a crab. So I don't know if

638
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: it's evidence or if it just shows us the pervasive

639
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: nature of the idea.

640
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 4: I'm sure they didn't know about it, because until my

641
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 4: paper and the associated work became famous recently, This wasn't

642
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 4: known outside of like plustation systematic circles, so they probably

643
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 4: saw it and thought it looked like a crab. I

644
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 4: didn't actually know that part about it, so I'm going

645
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 4: to have to check that out. Very cool.

646
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So to pull ourselves back to the real world

647
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: and out of the virtual world, we've talked about instances

648
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 1: where you know you're working through the tree of life

649
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: and the Krabby body form shows up. Do we see

650
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: instances where the Krabby body form has shown up and

651
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: then you lose it? Do we go in the other direction?

652
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 4: Yes? Indeed we've seen this at least seven times, probably

653
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 4: more than that, because there's a lot of shape variation.

654
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 4: And the reason why this is possible is because of

655
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 4: something called trade offs. So one trade can increase in

656
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 4: Orban's fitness, and potentially the Krabby body can do this,

657
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 4: but it might be decreasing the fitness of other traits.

658
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 4: So depending on what happens in their environment, what's the balance, right,

659
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 4: So there might be something else that's overcoming an adaptive

660
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 4: advantage of being crabby, and I don't think there's something

661
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 4: that's universally the case for these what we call decarsonizations.

662
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 4: It's a pretty stupid name, but that's what we call it.

663
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: Sounds like you're getting rid of cancer.

664
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 4: Oh my god. So the actual name of crabs was

665
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 4: originally called cancer, and the term cancer for the human

666
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 4: disease actually came from crabs because the Latin name of

667
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 4: craps is cancer, and the original medical doctors who saw

668
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 4: tumors thought, oh, this like thing is branching inside of you.

669
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 4: It's psycho crab. So yeah, huh, it's actually the same.

670
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: Oh interesting. Well, I think the anomology is really fascinating

671
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: also because we've been using the phrase getting crabby, which

672
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: to me, you know, has all these implications like I'm

673
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: krabby in the morning without my coffee, or you know,

674
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: my husband gets crabby and I cook too much eggplant

675
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 2: or something. Do you know where that comes from? I mean,

676
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: I know that's totally not your field.

677
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 4: Well, I mean anyone's field. So actually, funny story. I

678
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 4: spent I would say a lot of years of my

679
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 4: childhood kind of being a little afraid of crabs because

680
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 4: I want to be very virild. Just when I was

681
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 4: a kid and I went to the Vancouver Aquarium and

682
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 4: my parents were filming me with like this ancient video

683
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 4: camera VHS all of that O young and yeah, and

684
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 4: I'm standing in front of the tidepool tank talking about it,

685
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 4: and I pick up the dungeons crab and I'm talking

686
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 4: and it's biting me and boom, what is hurting everywhere?

687
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 4: So I decided that crabs were my enemy. So I

688
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 4: think it's all about how you approached them. That crab

689
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 4: was crabby. It did not like being grabbed by a child.

690
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: Fair enough, But why does krabby even have a negative connotation?

691
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the same with fishy, like something's getting fishy,

692
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: but you know other things are neutral, like there's no

693
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 2: meaning to I'm getting sharky or you know, I'm getting squiddy.

694
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 4: There is sharky like shark tank right, like, oh yeah, untrustworthy?

695
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 4: Are sharks right?

696
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: All right? Interesting?

697
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 4: I don't know why we use marine organisms as metaphors

698
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 4: for negative emotions. That's kind of weird. Maybe we should

699
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 4: all be compared to seals, where we're just like laying

700
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 4: there chilling. That'd be nice.

701
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: That's a vibe I can get behind.

702
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I.

703
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: Think it's amazing that you decided to study crabs after

704
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: having that experience rather than running away from them, and

705
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 2: that you advertise the existence of this video, which now

706
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 2: we have to see.

707
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't think it's digitized. My parents might have

708
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 4: a copy somewhere, but I don't know if it's in

709
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 4: a format that can be viewed anymore.

710
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: That should be on your website. I mean, if you're

711
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: a crab researcher and you have this formative moment.

712
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 4: Man, yeah, I should find out if I can. But

713
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 4: you know, I think it's because I actually didn't really

714
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 4: understand the difference between true and false crafts. But maybe

715
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 4: I did somehow understand it because I never stopped loving

716
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 4: hermit crafts. I thought they were wonderful, And when I've

717
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 4: got older and started studying arthropod evolution, I kind of

718
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 4: figured out that they were related. But yeah, hermit crabs

719
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 4: never fell out of my heart. I love them.

720
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: They also have a special place in my heart because

721
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: I grew up near Atlantic City, and so every time

722
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: we'd go to Atlantic City, you had to come home

723
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: with some hermit crab pets and take the best care.

724
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: And probably that was not good for the hermit crabs.

725
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 4: I did some really bad things too, So I grew

726
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 4: up in Toronto, which is as far away from the

727
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 4: ocean as you can possibly be, so I had very

728
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 4: limited chances to see any of these things. But when

729
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 4: I was a kid, I guess pre aquarian incident. We

730
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 4: did used to go to get caught a few times

731
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 4: and I was colecting. You know, the typical kid gets

732
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 4: bucket grabs whatever organisms, which I guess maybe Daniel, you

733
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 4: don't do that with I did that. I was always

734
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,959
Speaker 4: grabbing them and putting them in a bucket. And there

735
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 4: was one case where I had like a blue crab,

736
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 4: like a swimming crab, and I put fishes in the

737
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 4: bucket with it and brought it back to like the

738
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 4: cottage that we stared at, and then it was just

739
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 4: like the crab ate all the fish heads and left

740
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 4: their bodies.

741
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: I think every biologist has a story about how they

742
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: learned about the cruelty of nature in an embarrassing or

743
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: you know, not ideal way when they brought some animals

744
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: into their homes.

745
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 4: Exactly at least there wasn't our home.

746
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've got some stories too, but I brought

747
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: it into my home. But let's take another break, and

748
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: when we get back we'll talk about if nature ever

749
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: invents crabs for reasons that are like random and not

750
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: so good, and we're back. Okay, So we've talked about how,

751
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 1: as far as we know right now, the crab shape

752
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: has popped up five times in the tree of life

753
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: and has been lost seven times in the tree of life.

754
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 1: For those five instances where the crab body shape popped up,

755
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: are those all because it was been official or do

756
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: you sometimes get like a big morphological change for reasons

757
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: that aren't beneficial.

758
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is something that isn't that commonly discussed in

759
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 4: the public. But indeed, all traits don't necessarily evolve for

760
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 4: a reason, or at least not for a direct reason.

761
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 4: I would say, they're not all necessarily representing an adaptation.

762
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 4: So an adaptation is going to be the case where

763
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 4: individuals that have the trait where it improves this organism's

764
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 4: function within its environment or whatever, so like making better

765
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 4: at avoiding creditors and so on, then you will survive

766
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: because natural selection is going to let things die that

767
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 4: don't have this trait that benefits you. But parsonization, you know,

768
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 4: first of all, we don't know if it evolved in

769
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 4: the same kinds of environments every time, so it's tricky

770
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 4: to guess whether this was always the case. So there's

771
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 4: one term from biological literature called exceptation, and this is

772
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 4: a case where a trait improves the organism's function and

773
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 4: the environment where they live now, but the conditions where

774
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 4: evolved were different. I think king crabs and hermit crabs

775
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 4: are an example of this, So king crabs actually evolved

776
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 4: from within hermit crabs. There's still hermit crabs too, but

777
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 4: king crabs are parting them. So at some point in

778
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 4: their history they had to get rid of the shell.

779
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 4: The shell for the hermit crab is really important, right

780
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 4: because they have like this long soft abdomen that could

781
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 4: easily and immediately be eaten, and so the shell makes

782
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 4: them safe. But somewhere they had to lose them. So

783
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 4: what happened there They didn't like immediately get a mutation

784
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 4: that made them totally hard and fold it up. There

785
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 4: was some intermediate situation. So one thing that we suggested

786
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 4: the paper, and actually that has also been suggested prior

787
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 4: to us, is that maybe there was an environmental situation

788
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 4: where there just weren't shelves available and they were there already,

789
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 4: so they had to do something or die and probably

790
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 4: a lot of the gut. Maybe that's what happened, and

791
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 4: that would be a case of an exactation didn't evolve for

792
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 4: the reason that we know now, But there was a

793
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 4: reason then, and we don't know, because the fossil record,

794
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 4: particularly for hermit craps is pretty bad. Them being soft

795
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 4: or does not help.

796
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, now that always makes fossil stuff.

797
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 4: It does, So that's one possibility. There's another possibility that

798
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 4: I'm pretty interested in and curious about. Sometimes we have

799
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 4: selection on a trait that isn't the one that you're

800
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 4: interested in, and maybe that trait is correlated in the

801
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 4: genome or in the process of development to the trait

802
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 4: that you're interested in. It maybe being crabby is actually

803
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 4: related to something else that selection is acting on that

804
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 4: we can't see, especially if it's in the genome. We

805
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 4: don't know very much about their genomes. Only a few

806
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 4: species have been sequenced, maybe like ten or something, and

807
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 4: that's only in the past couple of years. But two

808
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 4: years ago there was.

809
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: Like one why is it is it hard to sequence

810
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 2: crab DNA?

811
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 6: Well, we have lots of pieces of DNA, but sequencing

812
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 6: the whole genome the technology to assemble genomes for which

813
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 6: you don't have like a detailed reference has only become possible.

814
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 4: Really in the past couple of years. It was expensive

815
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 4: and technically difficult, and to spend that kind of money

816
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 4: to do it, not a lot of people were going

817
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 4: to pay for that. So yeah, it's recently become less expensive,

818
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 4: and the software to do it has become easier, as

819
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 4: well as the actual sequencing technology, because one of the

820
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 4: things when you're sequencing a genome is you're actually sequencing

821
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 4: arts like little pieces of DNA, and you have to

822
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 4: using software. And that's why I said assembly. You kind

823
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 4: of making the puzzle at the moment, and so if

824
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 4: you don't have enough overlap of those pieces, you don't

825
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 4: know what you've done. So the technology to do that

826
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 4: has advanced a lot recently, So it's possible now that

827
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 4: it wasn't before.

828
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: So given that we're just at this point now where

829
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: we're starting to acquire genomes and you know, maybe we

830
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: could discover some more fossils. Like if we were to

831
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: have you back on the show in twenty years, how

832
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: likely do you think it is that the number for

833
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: you know, carsonization would be five and decarcinization would be seven. Like,

834
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 1: how likely do you think these numbers are to change

835
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: over time?

836
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 4: Well, I definitely think that sampling more species will change

837
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 4: those numbers, and it will increase both of them, because

838
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 4: we are largely making generalizations. And for me, because I

839
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 4: didn't start out as a crab scientist, I mean, I

840
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 4: guess I've been doing it for a few years now.

841
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 4: My background was in other crustaceans before, so as I

842
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 4: keep learning more, I start seeing more variation in their shapes.

843
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 4: And one of the things here that we're also kind

844
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 4: of obscuring is we're talking about it like you're a

845
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 4: crab or you're not a crab, and I don't think

846
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 4: it's very discreet. There's a continuum, like you can have

847
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 4: some of the features but not all of it, especially

848
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 4: since you're talking about something like a shape. A shape

849
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 4: is like, you know, think about it like a vector graphic.

850
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 4: A vector graphic for a really detailed polygon with a

851
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 4: ton of little sides. If you zoom out far enough,

852
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 4: it looks like a circle. So something like that is

853
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 4: going on with these shapes too. They at different levels

854
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 4: of study could look more and less similar. So I

855
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 4: think we just need to have more species sampled and

856
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 4: to study them in very sophisticated.

857
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: So we've established that five is like a pretty big

858
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,479
Speaker 1: number given the amount of time we've been talking about,

859
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: But evolving the crab shape five times is not a

860
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: huge number, and it's been lost more times than it

861
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: has been you know, found by nature. And there's tons

862
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: of stuff that we don't know. And so what are

863
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: your thoughts on how this idea became just like the

864
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: go to idea for like what nature wants to make

865
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: out of organisms.

866
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 4: I think people were surprised because everyone thinks that they

867
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 4: know what a crab is. Like some of these examples

868
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 4: you probably haven't encountered in your life, like echo location,

869
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 4: How many people have actually seen a bat in person?

870
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 7: What people would run away from it? And a whale

871
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 7: you have to be in the ocean to see it.

872
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 7: So it's true that a lot of people haven't, but

873
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 7: probably everyone has seen a crab in some way or another,

874
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 7: even if it's just dead, even if it's on SpongeBob, right,

875
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 7: they think they know what a crab is, and so

876
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 7: I think some of it was that people were surprised

877
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 7: to find out that not everything I think is a

878
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 7: crab is a crap.

879
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 4: The other thing is it went viral during the depths

880
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 4: of COVID and people had nothing better to do than

881
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 4: be on the internet. So some of it was probably that.

882
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,919
Speaker 1: And were you surprised, Oh my god, yes, or like frustrated.

883
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 4: Well, I was surprised because we had recently gotten funded

884
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 4: to do research on the evolutionary relationships and morphology of this.

885
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 4: But our funding also actually started right before COVID, so

886
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 4: it was supposed to be this amazing like tons of

887
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 4: international travel blah blah blah. Yeah, we didn't get to

888
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 4: do much of that, so you know, we were basically

889
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: doing like phylogenetic systematics, like obscure stuff that most people

890
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 4: don't care about. So I was shocked that it went

891
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 4: like millions of people level viral. But I was kind

892
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 4: of annoyed because I think it accidentally set off a

893
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 4: few misconceptions. So one of them was that we discovered

894
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 4: parsonization and that it was new. I don't want to

895
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 4: imply that I just got this, because that's not true.

896
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 4: We've known about it since before we knew what DNA

897
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 4: even was, like over a century. We've known it's just

898
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 4: it hasn't been studied in a really systematic way, so

899
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 4: we're trying to put quantitative tools to the topic. And

900
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,399
Speaker 4: you know, myself and my collaborators we were like crustacean

901
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 4: evolutionary biologists. We were just like, hey, this is cool.

902
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 4: But it has taken on a bigger life now. So

903
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 4: that's kind of one of the things that I just

904
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 4: wanted to set straight. But the other I think more

905
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 4: disturbing is the memes kind of set off some misconceptions

906
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:45,240
Speaker 4: of that evolution.

907
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 2: And how do you think these misconceptions took root. Do

908
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 2: you think it's journalists in good faith misunderstanding or do

909
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: you think there's an aspect of like, hey, this story

910
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 2: would be more exciting if it were a little bit different,

911
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: so let me make it clickbaity and distort it a

912
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,479
Speaker 2: little bit. What do you think is going wrong there?

913
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 4: I think a lot of the journalists have been in

914
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 4: good faith. A lot of the journalists I talk to

915
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 4: have science backgrounds. Yeah, but the headlines are often clicked

916
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 4: baby the editors. Yeah, it's more the memes. So the memes,

917
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 4: it's like multiple levels of translation. So someone's going to

918
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 4: read it and then the next person is going to

919
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 4: make a meme of it, and the next person can

920
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 4: make a meme with the meal. So I mean that's

921
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 4: like literally what memes are. Right, So when it starts

922
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 4: getting to crab the ultimate form, how can that be

923
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 4: if it's been lost seven times? Right, it can't. And

924
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 4: to say things like any form is firstly invented by nature.

925
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 4: Nature doesn't invent anything. Nature doesn't have a brain. That

926
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 4: skate's a little too close to intelligence design for me.

927
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 4: And then saying that one life form is superior to

928
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 4: another also doesn't really sit well with me. I don't

929
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 4: actually think that crabs are better than any other organism

930
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 4: except in my heart, which I love them. You know,

931
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 4: I got over the incident, so I love them alat

932
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 4: now and I got gloves to hold them with, so.

933
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 1: Good move.

934
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 4: So, you know, instead of seeing it as crabs are

935
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 4: better than everything else and that's why they evolved, you know,

936
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 4: they're part of an ecosystem, part of many eco citizens.

937
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 4: We see them all over the world, Like the amount

938
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 4: of places that they live is actually quite astonishing. It's

939
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 4: you know, from the deepest depths of the ocean and

940
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 4: hydrothermal vents where they're like in a chemosynthetic ecosystem and

941
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 4: all the way. There's a crab genus called Himalaya potomon

942
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 4: and they're called that because they actually live in the

943
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 4: Himalaya Mountains far far away from the ocean. What oh yeah,

944
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 4: those guys. They do live near streams, so they get

945
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 4: wet at least. But there are some crabs that are

946
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 4: so terrestrial that they will drown if you subverse them

947
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 4: in the ocean, like, they will live die. Yeah.

948
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: Land crabs love it.

949
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So they do have to mate like the

950
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 4: larvae go into the water, but that's it other than

951
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 4: that land.

952
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 2: So given the crabs are everywhere on Earth a very

953
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 2: adaptable to whatever environment, that sets me up perfectly for

954
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 2: the question I've been dying to ask you, which is

955
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: about Zeno krabologists. You know, imagine you're the biologist on

956
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: some landing party. You're about to, you know, land on

957
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: some alien planet for the first time. Do you expect

958
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 2: to see crabs in some other evolutionary independent environment.

959
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 4: Well, spoiler, but they did make crabs and star Wars recently,

960
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 4: so technically I have to say yes.

961
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: Right, I'm not a documentary.

962
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 4: No, so I would actually say no realistically, because to

963
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 4: be a crab. You have to have the parts of

964
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 4: an archipod. To start. You can't have a care pace

965
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 4: changing to this shape. If you don't have a care pace,

966
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 4: you can't fold up your open if you don't have

967
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 4: a segmented body in the first place, the legs and claws,

968
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 4: you have to have those. So for me, what I

969
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 4: imagine aliens to be, and this, of course now is

970
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 4: just complete speculation based in almost nothing. But you know,

971
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 4: I would say, why don't we assume that aliens could

972
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,720
Speaker 4: be radio organisms? We have those on Earth like starfish.

973
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 4: Why wouldn't they be colonial organisms? We have those corals? Right?

974
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 4: I think crabs are awesome. And if Disney or any

975
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 4: other out you would like to hire me as a

976
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 4: consultant to help them make their monsters, I'd be happy.

977
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't actually think that's what you'd see

978
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 4: in space.

979
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 2: Well, fascinating space crabs unlikely, that's the new meme.

980
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:53,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, so sad. But you know, if you do somehow

981
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,919
Speaker 4: get like an arthropod like organism, something that's segmented, then yes,

982
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 4: I think it is possible you could. We don't know

983
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 4: what the conditions would be like. You know, it's also

984
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 4: not star wars where every planet is like one ecosystem. Right,

985
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 4: you know, hard to say, right what kind of gravity

986
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 4: they have? Do things live in the water at all? Right?

987
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 4: Who knows?

988
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: Let's end on more exciting notes. So we've poured a

989
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: little bit of cold water on the you know, nature

990
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: turns everything into crabs thing. But so let's talk about

991
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: what is exciting. So you study convergent evolution and crustaceans,

992
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: what are the interesting scientific questions you're excited about and

993
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: what are the societal benefits for studying this kind of stuff.

994
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 4: So from the biologist's perspective, we want to know if

995
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 4: we can basically predict evolutionary patterns. And I don't necessarily

996
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 4: mean predict the future. Although I don't necessarily not mean that,

997
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 4: I also mean predict as in, like, do you get

998
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 4: why given X, right? And convergent evolution is a really

999
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 4: wonderful system for this because we already saw it multiple times.

1000
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 4: So it's kind of like having experimental rapplicits that have

1001
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 4: already happened in nature. So when we do this. I

1002
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 4: kind of alluded to this when I was talking about

1003
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 4: animal lizards. They have very similar forms. They're not totally

1004
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 4: predictable what's going to happen because they have been experimented on.

1005
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 4: But there is a higher degree of predictability because they

1006
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 4: are all basically starting from already a very similar point.

1007
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 4: So if you look further back to something that evolved

1008
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 4: a really long time ago convergently, like say eyes vertebrates

1009
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 4: and several podsic squids, we all have similar eyes, and

1010
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 4: there are genetic similarities, so like there's a gene called

1011
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 4: past six that is basically like make eye here when

1012
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 4: the gene gets expressed, but everything else about the eyes

1013
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 4: can be different because they're so distantly related. So I

1014
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 4: think the fact that within true and false crafts we

1015
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 4: see this, I mean, it is a distant common ancestor,

1016
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 4: but it's not so distant. Million years. Yeah, it seems

1017
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 4: a long time, but like in the scheme of animal diversity,

1018
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 4: it's not that distant. So seeing also the amount of

1019
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 4: variation that they have with all the options that their

1020
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 4: bodies can take, why are we seeing some of the

1021
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 4: same basic forms. Are we seeing the same thing being

1022
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,720
Speaker 4: innovated and then just elaborated on, or are we seeing

1023
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 4: different things happening entirely? Is it adaptive? Is it not

1024
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 4: adaptive is it a combination? And I think being able

1025
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 4: to study different scales of convergence is really important because

1026
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 4: if we just study the same thing, then we're not

1027
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 4: going to have a fuller picture of whether we can

1028
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 4: really predict evolutionary outcomes.

1029
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 1: And how about we all have to write our NSF

1030
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 1: grants and other than you know, creating incorrect memes, what

1031
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: are some society reasons to study this?

1032
00:56:56,239 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 4: Well, certainly studying conversion evolution is also important for if

1033
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 4: I'll use my NSF speak, the bioeconomy. We live in

1034
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 4: a world where conditions are changing, and we want to

1035
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 4: have crops that can adapt to changes. We want to

1036
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 4: develop drugs that are going to be effective against new pathogens,

1037
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 4: and many of those things, you're going to see that

1038
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 4: conditions change in the same way multiple times around the world.

1039
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 4: We've seen this, of course with variants of COVID having

1040
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 4: the same mutations, so like when we're trying to make

1041
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 4: vaccines against them, we're looking at trying to fight convergent evolution,

1042
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 4: so that can certainly be quite important. Or like you know,

1043
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 4: we want to see how plants are going to respond

1044
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 4: to different toxins in the ground. Stuff like this but

1045
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 4: I think even studying crustaceans is important because, I mean,

1046
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 4: we've kind of alluded to this, but there's a big

1047
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 4: economy in people eating crabs. Like two fisheries in Alaska

1048
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:02,439
Speaker 4: collapsed about four years ago, both the snow crab, which

1049
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 4: is a crue crab, and the lasting king crab, which

1050
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 4: is a false crab, and this is attributed to either

1051
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 4: climate change and or over fishing. Both are pretty bad,

1052
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 4: and the reality is it's three hundred and twenty million

1053
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 4: dollars in the economy, plus people who are not going

1054
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 4: to be able to eat, plus people's jobs. So that's

1055
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 4: really serious. And for us to be able to understand

1056
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 4: the resilience of these species two changes environmentally. I mean,

1057
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 4: obviously this's on a smaller scale within a species, but

1058
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 4: maintaining genetic diversity and stuff like this is really important

1059
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 4: to know about. Another interesting thing I would say is

1060
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 4: that there can be some possible knowledge about diseases that

1061
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 4: we can actually get from crustaceans. For example, crabs can

1062
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 4: regenerate their legs if you put them off. Arthur pods

1063
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 4: have a lot of superpowers because the way that they

1064
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 4: grow is by molting their entire episoskeleton, and they make

1065
00:58:58,200 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 4: what will become a bigger one, but it's like stuck

1066
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 4: inside and it sucks, and then when the old one

1067
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 4: fops off, then it kind of inflicts, and so they

1068
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 4: stick a new leg in there. So you know, obviously,

1069
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 4: people who have injuries might want to know about ways

1070
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 4: that this could be improved. So there's actually quite a

1071
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 4: lot even in these really obscure animals and seemingly obscure topics.

1072
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 4: It's true that I'm studying biodiversity. I want to know

1073
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 4: about why we see the forms that we do, and

1074
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 4: that may be very high level, but these organisms are

1075
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 4: important to us.

1076
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 2: So you can solve a lot of interesting science mysteries

1077
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,479
Speaker 2: and learn about broader implications. But maybe you can't crack

1078
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 2: one of the deepest mysteries, which is why husbands are

1079
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 2: sometimes crabby in the morning.

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00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 4: No, I can't crack that one.

1081
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: That's more of an NIH question than an NFF question.

1082
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 2: That's true, a set is more like our aliens krabby,

1083
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 2: and that we actually might have some hints about.

1084
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, NASA does have an extra biology director, or

1085
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 4: at least we'll see what happens. But they have had

1086
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 4: but they don't usually do stuff like this. It's more

1087
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 4: realistic questions that they asked, like how would you detect

1088
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,439
Speaker 4: if there's water on another planet and stuff like that.

1089
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 4: So yeah, not like literally our organs is going to

1090
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,959
Speaker 4: be crabs on another planet. I think that it's cute,

1091
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 4: but they're not going to actually give you a million

1092
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 4: always could.

1093
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: Do that well. I see lots of great reasons to

1094
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 1: fund crab research, and Joe, we look forward to seeing

1095
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 1: what you do in the crabby space in the future.

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01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, thanks for.

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01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: Being on the show. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is

1098
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: produced by iHeart Reading. We would love to hear from you.

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01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 2: We really would. We want to know what questions you

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01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 2: have about this Extraordinary Universe.

1101
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

1102
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: for future shows. If you contact us, we will get

1103
01:00:58,680 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 1: back to you.

1104
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 2: We really in it. We answer every message. Email us

1105
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 2: at Questions at Danielankelly dot org.

1106
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: Or you can find us on social media. We have

1107
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: accounts on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on all of

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01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: those platforms. You can find us at D and K Universe.

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01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 2: Don't be shy write to us