1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm Polly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson, and today 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what might have been the 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: greatest fraud scheme of all time. It was certainly incredibly ambitious. 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: And I have to credit our listener from Twitter who 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: goes by shark Jack for this one, because I had 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: never heard of the Baron of Arizona, which is hilarious 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: because I was born in Arizona. Well. And and when 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: he asked about it, I gave the same answer that 11 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: I always give, which is, you know, we get a 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: whole lot of listener suggestions, so I couldn't tell you. 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: And then within thirty minutes it was like, oh wait, 14 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: now Holly's really excited about us. Well, because then I 15 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: looked it up and I saw this is so like 16 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: in my niche but that there was in nineteen fifty 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: Vincent Price movie about it, and I love Vincent Price. Uh. 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: And then it apparently was one of Vincent Price's favorite roles. 19 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: But somehow I had missed it because I've always focused 20 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: on his horror career. Uh. And then Edward worked as 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: an extra on it, so I was like, this is fascinating, 22 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: but clearly it was a fictionalized account. So then I 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: looked up the real story and then I was completely 24 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,279 Speaker 1: fished in because it's insane and sort of a fun 25 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: wild ride. UH. And we'd have to give a brief 26 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: bit of background on how this whole thing could have 27 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: played out, because it's a pretty massive flim flam scheme. UH. 28 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: So in eighteen forty eight, the Mexican more ended with 29 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, and according to the terms 30 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: of that treaty, Mexico gave up most of what had 31 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: been Northern Mexico. In an exchange, the United States agreed 32 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: to honor existing property rights UH that were owned by 33 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: Mexican and Spanish citizens in the newly acquired territory. In 34 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty three, the Gadsden Purchase added to this 35 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: expanse of land and UH the agreement was maintained the 36 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: Property Rights Agreement UH, and this combined territory would eventually 37 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: become Arizona and New Mexico and Utah, UH, Colorado and Wyoming. 38 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: And as you might imagine, there was some difficulties sorting 39 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: out who owned what in this huge expanse of land. 40 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: So there had been tracts of land that were granted 41 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: to families or individuals by Spanish and Mexican authorities over 42 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: decades and even centuries, and it had to be figured 43 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: out who actually had rights to different parcels of land 44 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: UH and often the supporting paperwork that would determine this 45 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: was sometimes an ocean away. And it took decades to 46 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: sort out all of this legal UH landholding issue. And 47 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: during that time there were plenty of shady land grabs 48 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: that were made by opportunistic fraudsters that wanted to profit 49 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: from this real estate confusion that was going on. But 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: none of these fraudsters were as aggressive or ambitious or 51 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: as globe trottingly thorough as James Addison Reta Revus, who 52 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: launched a really spectacular fraud attempt. Start with a little 53 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: background on him. James was born May tenth, eighteen forty three, 54 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: near Clinton, Missouri. This was five years before in the 55 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: Northern Mexico was seeded to the United States. His mother 56 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: was named Maria and she was part Spanish, and when 57 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: he was eighteen, Rivas served in the Confederate Army in 58 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: the Hunter's Eighth Division of the Missouri State Guard. While 59 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: in the Army, he became a skilled forger, and he 60 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: falsified documents for passes to get out of the service 61 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: after it did not live up to his expectations. Yeah, 62 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: he was still technically enlisted, but he would have these 63 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: magical passes to go do other things and not actually 64 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: do the duties that he was assigned. Uh. However, as 65 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: he realized the Confederate Army was losing, he also switched 66 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: sides to join the Union Army. A little bit of 67 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: a flim flamer kind of from the beginning. Yeah, he 68 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: had a botched forgery attempt that set him on the 69 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: run to Brazil in eighteen sixty five. He returned to 70 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: Missouri a year later and worked in a number of 71 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: different jobs, from street car conductors, traveling salesman to store 72 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: clerk before he finally landed in the real state business 73 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: in St. Louis And. On May fifth of eighteen seventy four, 74 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: James Addison Revs. Married Ada Pope, who was a woman 75 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: he had known since he was a teen. Uh. And 76 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: that's just we're giving you the very brief background on 77 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: him because the juicy part of his story is so 78 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: big and full of details that we couldn't do the 79 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: full long bio. So then we'll get right to things 80 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: that happened in the Arizona territory, which we're crazy. Yes. 81 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: In the spring of eighteen eighty three and Tucson, Holly's birthplace, 82 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: uh he was, he officially filed a claim for a 83 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: massive chunk of Arizona territory. As validation of his claim, 84 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: he submitted papers indicating that the land had been acquired 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: by George Willing and that he revis now had the 86 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: rights to it, having been a partner with Willings. He 87 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: also produced two trunk's worth of the documentation, allegedly from 88 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: the Spanish and Mexican archives, detailing the claims history all 89 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: the way back to seventeen fifty eight. Ye he kind 90 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: of opted to overwhelm them with paperwork, and Rivas asserted 91 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: that a seventeen fifty eight grant from King Charles the 92 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: Third of Spain to Don Miguel Nemicia Silva de Peralta 93 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: de la Cordoba, who he referred to as the first 94 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: Baron of Arizona, included a tract of land of more 95 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: than eighteen thousand square miles in the Arizona Territory, and 96 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: that he, Revas, was entitled to it. This space extended 97 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: from west of Phoenix to the outskirts of Silver City, 98 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: New Mexico, and about fifty miles north of present day Oracle. 99 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: And Rivas had a massed in these trunks of documents 100 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: the history of the claims ownership through the Peralta family, 101 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: then to George Willing, and then to himself. And the documents, 102 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: all of which were forgeries, included wills. There were family 103 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: papers and letters. There were Peralta family portraits. Uh, this 104 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: first baron of Arizona was a complete fiction. He had 105 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: just made this person up and developed a really extensive 106 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: backstory for him. As soon as this land claim was filed, 107 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: Revas started setting up a home for himself and making 108 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: arrangements to manage his new land, even though the claim 109 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: hadn't been validated. He started posting bills throughout the area 110 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: instructing residents to arrange a meeting with his attorneys they 111 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: could establish terms of rental agreements or negotiate offers of 112 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: quick claims. Yeah, he just swooped right in and tried 113 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: to steal the land right out from under people's feet. 114 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: It reminds me of a cat I used to have. 115 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: He was basically like, I live here now, I think 116 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: all this is aline. Uh. Initially, the farmers, ranchers, and 117 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: other settlers in the area were understandably skeptical about Rivas's claim, 118 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: but then new spread that the Silver King Mine had 119 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,119 Speaker 1: paid Revas twenty five thousand dollars for a quick claim deed, 120 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: and that the Southern Pacific Railroad had also agreed on 121 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: a deal with him. So he was convincing some pretty 122 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: high level people that he was in fact legitimate. And 123 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: this atmosphere and attitudes about him started to shift, and 124 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 1: the skepticism about him quickly turned to outright fear. To 125 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: help support his position, Revas even created stone markers and 126 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: had them placed all around the land as sort of 127 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: a scheme to prove to the Spanish court had surveyed 128 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: the territory that he claimed as his own. So frightened 129 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: settlers had started paying Revas thinking that they were his tenants. 130 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: Now and there were still a lot of people who 131 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: believed him to be a fraud, and we're trying to 132 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: expose him as a swindler. One of these skeptics was 133 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: Royal Ad Johnson, who had become Surveyor General of Arizona 134 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: while the claim was being reviewed. So his predecessor had 135 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: been convinced by Vas's theatrics, but Johnson felt that the 136 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: validity of the claim had not been thoroughly examined. He 137 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: found discrepancies between some of Rivas's evidence and independently sought 138 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: duplicate documentation from the archives in Mexico City. And meanwhile, 139 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: while the claim was being reviewed and he was still 140 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: acting tenant fees, Revus was also dealing with two lawsuits. 141 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: One of those was filed on behalf of George Willings family, 142 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: and another was filed by Territory Territorial Attorney General Clark 143 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: Churchill and was related to his land holdings which were 144 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: being affected by Revs's claim. The Willing family's efforts to 145 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: regain some of their lost fortune sort of fell apart. 146 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: They ran out of money and weren't able to continue it, 147 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: and the court ended up ruling in favor of Churchill 148 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: in the second suit in eight five. Rivers's blossom. The 149 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: Churchill case spurred on his critics and skeptics. The tide 150 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: of public opinion against him was further fueled by the 151 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: Surveyor General's contention that Rivers's claim could not be validated. 152 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: So it would seem like his claim to this huge 153 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: swath of the southwest was dying out. But he had 154 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: a backup plan, he really did. Uh. So Reva's actually 155 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 1: put together a second claim uh and filed it in 156 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty seven. And the second claim he was advancing 157 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: on behalf of a woman named Sophia Loretta Michaela de 158 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: Peralta de la Cordoba, the great granddaughter and sole heir 159 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: of the original grantee. Uh. Sophia was conveniently also married 160 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: at this point to James Rivers and Rivas to support 161 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: his his claim and sort of you know, build ground 162 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: swell started going by the name j A Peralta Rieves. 163 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: So remember he already had a wife. Yeah, he didn't 164 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 1: remember her. She Ada was actually granted a divorce in 165 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty three, citing her husband's apparent desertion as grounds 166 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 1: to sever their legal union. Yeah, he seemed to not 167 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: factor her in at all. He kind of left her 168 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: and never went back. Uh. And to substantiat all of 169 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: this new information in his new claim, Rivas had traveled 170 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: to Spain, and he brought back a new important information 171 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: and documentation about the Peralta claim. There were a additional 172 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: dramatic tales of this orphan lost Peralta who eventually became 173 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: his wife, and of course a slew of newly unearthed documents, 174 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: all of which were of course forgeries. Well, and then 175 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 1: then there's the part where it's just awfully convenient that 176 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: he happens to have found this air in air quotes. 177 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: While Rivers once again attempted to set himself up and 178 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,599 Speaker 1: behave as though this claim had already been certified, this 179 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: time he met a lot of resistance, and once again 180 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: Royal A. Johnson, who had briefly been out of the 181 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: office of Surveyor General of Arizona but then had returned, 182 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: was ready to inspect the claim with a fine tooth comb. 183 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: So Johnson, in eighteen ninety made a full report on 184 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: the alleged Peralta grant, and in the introduction to this 185 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: report he states, in my report, I shall maintain first 186 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: that the King never recommended the grant as alleged by 187 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: the claimants. Second that no such grant as the alleged 188 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: pearl the grant was ever made by the Viceroy of 189 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: New Spain. Third that, admitting the legality of the alleged grant, 190 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: there are no legal claimants before this office, and none 191 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: in existence so far as the records show. Fourth that, 192 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: again admitting its legality, it is absolutely impossible to establish 193 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: its boundaries, the alleged grant having never having been bounded 194 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: or surveyed, and without identified boundaries, it fails. Yeah, so 195 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: he said he was going to maintain all that, and 196 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: he really really did that. He so did so in 197 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: a move that would win over any history lover's heart. 198 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: He made this incredibly detailed study of particularly the oldest 199 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: documents that Rivas had submitted, and then compared them wherever 200 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: possible to similar documents of the Spanish court at the time. 201 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: He also had a tracing made of Carlos the Third 202 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: of Spain's signature from seventeen fifty nine sent to him 203 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: via the Interior and State Departments, and he found a 204 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: discrepancy when comparing it to the signature that was found 205 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: on the Rivas doc mints. He goes on to note 206 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: differences in the shaping and placements of the letter s 207 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: throughout the throughout the documents, and the suspicious consistency of 208 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: the use of the same pen being used for multiple 209 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: offices signatures on documents. That's my favorite part, and that 210 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: the pen is in fact modern to their time and 211 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: like the inks were not appropriate. Uh. Some people, even 212 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: when they talk about the Royal Johnson's report and his research, 213 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: talk about it as sort of like proto forensics, that 214 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: he just got into such nitty gritty of the whole thing. 215 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: The following passage points out the logic flaw in many 216 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: of Rivas's document copies, and to quote next in order 217 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: considering this document comes three pages of written matter in 218 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: the same handwriting. It purports to be a copy of 219 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: the report of the Inquisition on the grant proposed to 220 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: be given to Peralta, and also a copy of the 221 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: grant actually made by the Viceroy of New Spain, as 222 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: well as a lame description of the locusts of the grant. 223 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: The original report of the inquisition and the original grant 224 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: of the Viceroy, made about the middle and last century, 225 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: are not produced and unquestionably have not been found, but 226 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: in lieu of the original papers so very important in 227 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: considering these case. These poor substitutes are produced, why the 228 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: locus of the original cannot be established when correct copies 229 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: can be made from them? I am at a loss 230 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: to understand. The reason dictates that if bona fide copies 231 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: from originals on file can be produced, there ought to 232 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: be no trouble in locating the place of deposit in 233 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: such original originals. When we stop and reflect on the 234 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: learned body of men comprising the Holy Inquisition, this alleged 235 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: copy is but a sorry exhibit of their handiwork at 236 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: producing certified records. It lacks every appearance, with the possible 237 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: exception of old age, that would naturally be expected in 238 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: a certified record of such important documents by such an 239 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: education aided body of men. I love this whole report. 240 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: It's long, but you can read it in its entirety 241 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: on archive dot org, and will link to that in 242 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: the show notes. But he basically goes through all of 243 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: Revas's supporting documentation page by page, like we're talking trunks 244 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: and trunks by this point of papers and documents, and 245 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: he breaks down why each of them is false and 246 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: cannot be verified. He also uses some pretty impressive historical 247 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: research to disprove various elements of the case, including learning 248 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: about some various legal protocols that would have been in 249 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: place throughout the land grant's journey that are in no 250 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: way evidenced in the documentation. It is really super impressive. 251 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: It also brought Johnson much acclaim and appreciation. As you 252 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: can well imagine, his diligent research finally outed a suspected 253 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: fraudster who had been swindling settlers and companies out of 254 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: money for more than a decade at this point. So 255 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: when he submitted this report and he had carefully documented 256 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: all of the ways that Revis's documentation was in correct, 257 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: it was like you probably could hear a cheer throughout 258 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: the Southwest. I'm imagining there are people who still believed 259 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: believed him, because that is how it would be today. 260 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: There would be people who were insisting that the entire 261 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: inquest was wrong. Well, Rivas certainly was. You would think 262 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: that he would slink away in shame at this point, 263 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: but now you would be wrong. Rivas filed a lawsuit 264 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: against the United States and Claims Court, saying that their 265 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: land had been wrongfully taken from them. He sought eleven 266 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: million dollars in damages. Yeah, and he drummed up all 267 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: kinds of witnesses to back up his claims about his 268 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: wife Sophia's lineage and that she was in fact a 269 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: real peralta, and he uh seemed to feel like his 270 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: claims were supported by all of his evidence. A government 271 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: investigator sent to Spain discovered evidence that Rivas had been 272 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: to the government archives in Seville. Speaking with archives staff, 273 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: it appeared that Rivas had likely planted documents there and 274 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: he was wanted by the authorities. There's a whole wacky 275 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: story about how he was working with an archivist to 276 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: try to find a thing and they couldn't find it together, 277 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: and then suddenly it showed up, and they got really 278 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: suspicious of him, and uh, one of the the managers 279 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: of the archives made them number all the documents really 280 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: carefully and catalog them before Revas could come back in. 281 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: But suddenly he had another document that was not numbered 282 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: and was folded differently than everything else, and was trying 283 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: to say that he had found it in a box, 284 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: like it's a whole crazy this thing is like the 285 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: best telenovella ever. Well, and I was just thinking, just 286 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: happened on the Good Wife? And then evidence was also 287 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: uncovered that witnesses that Revas had a arranged that we're 288 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: going to vouch for his wife's lineage, had in fact 289 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: been paid large sums of money for their testimony. Not 290 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: looking good at this point. Shall we take a moment 291 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: from all of his drama, though, and have a word 292 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: from our sponsor? That sounds grand? Alright? So back to 293 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: the wild story of James Revis so in e. T. 294 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: Ninety Ford. While the government was compiling its evidence in 295 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: this case, Revas wrote a letter to one of his attorneys, 296 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: James O. Broadhead, the sort of I think he's trying 297 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: to establish the validity of why all of these wild 298 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: twists and turns of his stories were completely natural and it. 299 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: The first thing he does is outlines the acquisition of 300 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: the Willing papers, beginning with how he met Dr Willing, 301 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 1: who claimed to be related to a man Revas had 302 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: known and trusted. So in this tale, Revas writes that 303 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: Willing came to him as a real estate agent in St. Louis, 304 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: and that Willing had purchased a large tract of land 305 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: in the Arizona Territory from Miguel Peralta, the son of 306 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: the owner, for about twenty thous dollars in gold dust 307 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: and mules with pack saddles, And according to the Revas letter, 308 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: Willing had told him quote when the trade was made, 309 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: I had no paper on which to write the deed. 310 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: So I scoured the camp and found a sheet of greasy, 311 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: pencil marked camp paper upon which I wrote the d 312 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: And as there were no justices nor notaries present, I 313 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: had it acknowledged before witnesses. And I shall take you 314 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: with me and show you the deed because I have 315 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: it in a safe in Mr Hall's office, he being 316 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: a friend of mine whom I can trust. Every part 317 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: of this is so funny to me, because there is 318 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: always like a lot of layers of drama. And well, 319 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: I didn't have a real deed because I just bought 320 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: it off this guy and his elderly father was there 321 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: and very old, and I traded mules and I we 322 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: didn't have a paper, so I just wrote it on 323 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: like a scrap of paper, And everybody said that was cool. 324 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: Like people keep saying, you can tell who's lying because 325 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: they're giving you too much detail. And Revas is a 326 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: master of detail. Yeah. He goes on at length about 327 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: how he was initially not sure that any worthwhile enterprise 328 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: could come out of this property. But then he became convinced, 329 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: and so he offered to join Willing and his enterprise 330 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: if Willing would make Vas an equal partner and ownership. 331 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: Rivus goes on to say that while he and Willing 332 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: were traveling to Arizona separately, Rivas was detained due to 333 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: ill health, and at that point Willing arrived in Arizona, 334 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: but then died, and Willing supposedly had all the pertinent 335 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: documents of ownership with him, and after initially exhausting other 336 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: means of obtaining verification of his rights to the property, 337 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: Rivas claims to have made a contract with Willing's widow 338 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: entitling him to the same portion of the estate that 339 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: he had bargained with her late husband for, and then 340 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: he eventually bought out her interest. As all good soap 341 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: operas go, there's a twist at this point in Revas's story. 342 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: While investigating the matter of doctor Willing, he discovered that 343 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: there was a charge of fraud against Willing. Rivas's letter 344 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: goes on to say that the rightful heir was in 345 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: the person of a child, one of a pair of 346 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: twins born near Los Angeles, California, who was then supposed 347 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: to be living in northern California, and who bore the 348 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: name of the mother then dead, who would, if living, 349 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: be the only lineal descendant of the round grantee. Then 350 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: the most perfect happenstance. Reva's claims to have bumped into 351 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: this girl in question, who was fourteen at the time, 352 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: on a train car what luck, and he fell in 353 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: love with her, which was also very handy, although they 354 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: did not marry until she was older, so just too 355 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: he was many things, but apparently waited for her to 356 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: be kind of a more mature age before he married her. 357 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: His tale goes on to include this full cast of characters, 358 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: each of whom gives him some piece of vital information 359 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: to the Peralta land puzzle, and then magically mysteriously disappears. 360 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: One such instance involves a woman who tells him all 361 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: about the surviving twin and that the Miguel Peralta who 362 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: sold that willing the land was a fraud, and Revas 363 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: claims to have drawn a picture of her, being artistic 364 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: in my nature, and writing her name in his notebook, 365 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: But then he accidentally lost the notebook in which he 366 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: did that. Whoops, so he can't remember her name because 367 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: he lost that notebook even though he took copious notes. 368 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: There's a lot of that throughout this letter. And the 369 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: letter is UH linked in our show notes. It's in 370 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: uh an part of an article that another scholar has 371 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: written about that particular letter, so you can read the 372 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: whole wacky thing, and it really is. It reads like 373 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: a you know, threepenny opera sort of situation. Historians dismissed 374 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: this letter is largely fiction, and you know, point out 375 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: that it's an ornate web that's woven to justify Revis's 376 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: first claim involving Dr Willing and his deeds and then 377 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: how he kind of back pedaled and switched horses to 378 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: you know, being married to the Peralta family and how 379 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: this worked out, and of course most people are of 380 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: the group opinion that he kind of plucked this orphan 381 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: out of nowhere and then told the people caring for her, no, no, 382 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: she's actually royalty, and they believed him because he was 383 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: a master flim flam man, and then she was kind 384 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: of raised from that point on as a baroness and 385 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: then he married her and so they believed it. At 386 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: that point, and we're willing to really dig in and 387 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: assert the truth of his claims. Oh, so many people involved. 388 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: And George or you know, also known as Doc Willing 389 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: was really a real person who had been a doctor 390 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 1: and then turned to prospecting. He likely sought out Revas, 391 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: who was a real estate agent because of his reputation 392 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: for forgery. Willing really did die suddenly right after filing 393 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: his claim in Arizona, and his death was never investigated, 394 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: but was likely the result of foul play. It was 395 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: not the first time that he had been part of 396 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: a nefarious deal. No, he was definitely one of you know, 397 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: the people who saw this whole kind of weird trying 398 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: to sort out the land and who really owned it 399 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: as an opportunity. So this was not the first time 400 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: he had made a land grab their odds where somebody 401 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: was angry at him and killed him. So the revous 402 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: civil trial over this documentation and his rights or not 403 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: to the land started on June third of eighteen. But 404 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: although the United States District Court's challenged to Revas's claims 405 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: had actually been on the U. S. Land Claims Court 406 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: docket for two years, at that point, it had been 407 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: filed initially in February one of eighteen ninety three, and 408 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: then they were working on their case the whole time, 409 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: which is also the point at which Revas wrote this 410 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: letter to his attorney. Once the case went before the court, 411 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: Reva's not only lost it, but found himself being indicted 412 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: on criminal charges, and on June seven, eighteen ninety six, 413 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: James Rivers's criminal trial began and he was convicted of 414 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: attempting to defraud the U. S. Government, and he was 415 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: sentenced to two years in prison and find five thousand dollars. 416 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: He was incarcerated in the Santa Fe Penitentiary, although on 417 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: April nineteenth of eighteen ninety eight, he was released three 418 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: months early for good behavior. At this point, Sophia was 419 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: living and working in Colorado and had the couple's twins 420 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: with her. After traveling the country trying to get investors 421 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: interested and development plans for Arizona, James finally settled for 422 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: a while with the family, but they wound up getting 423 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: divorced in nineteen o two, and on November twenty, nineteen fourteen, 424 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: Rivas died of bronchitis in Denver, Colorado. He was seventy 425 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: one at the time, and he was buried in a 426 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: pauper's grave, and he had spent some time in the 427 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: poorhouse various points in between his divorce in nineteen o 428 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: two and the twelve years before he passed away. So 429 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: he really went from being kind of this man living 430 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: a grand life too barely scraping by. On February fourteenth, 431 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, Arizona became United States the state. Yeah, not 432 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: a barony at all. Uh. And there are some historical 433 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: footnotes that actually say he never claimed himself to have 434 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: the title Baron of Arizona, although he did refer to 435 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: his wife Sophia as the Baroness, so he kind of 436 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: gets that name more by historians than of his zone, accord. 437 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: But he certainly claimed to own the whole thing. And 438 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: I'll is my mind in a way, it doesn't blow 439 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: my mind at all, because I know people who have 440 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: been defrauded of things and and and people. A lot 441 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: of people are, you know, our trusting souls that other 442 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: people take advantage of. But at the same time he 443 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: was putting fake markers all over the desert. I just 444 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: him floored by how devoted he was to this scheme 445 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: that he traveled all the way to Europe to plant 446 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: documents that would could later be found to support him. 447 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: Like he really, uh went to some great lengths to 448 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: try to Yeah, like he the fact that he found 449 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: a supposed air to get married to instead of just 450 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: like moving on to some different scheme. Yeah, he was 451 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: dug in at that point. And it makes me wonder 452 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: how much of his sort of fraud was planned out 453 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: ahead and how much of it he was kind of 454 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: making up as he went along because he was in 455 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: too deep at that point, but he didn't want to 456 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: back out of it. Uh, But it's quite astounding to 457 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: think about. Do you also have some listener mail? I do, 458 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: and this is from our listener Jackie, and she is 459 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: one of many that wrote us about this in the 460 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: Prince Sotto podcast, where I mentioned the discrepancies depending on 461 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: what piece of historical writing you're reading about Prince Sotto's 462 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: age when he got married. And I feel foolish because 463 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: this is a part of Asian culture that I, for 464 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: some reason, have never known about, even though it's quite 465 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: common well, and it's one that I knew about, but 466 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: it didn't occur to me that it would apply in 467 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: this case, which we'll talk about in a minute. Yeah. 468 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: So uh and Jackie, like I said, is one of 469 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: several people that wrote us, so I just plucked one 470 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: of the many out. She says, Dear ladies, I'm a 471 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: huge fan of the podcast as well as several others 472 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: from the House Stuff Works family. I just finished listening 473 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: to Your Prince Sotto podcast and wanted to mention something. 474 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: The confusion on his age is when he got married 475 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: could in part be explained by how Korea measures age. 476 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: Instead of starting at zero on the day a person 477 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: is born and then accumulating months and years, every person 478 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: starts out at one year old. For example, I was 479 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,479 Speaker 1: born in nine, which means that I am twenty four 480 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: years old and Western standards. However, in Korea, I would 481 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: be twenty five years old. H I. Like I said, 482 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 1: I feel foolish that I never knew this, but also uh, 483 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: and I think some of our listeners that wrote about 484 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: it mentioned this as well. That your birthday is not 485 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: where your age changes. The new years where your age changes, 486 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: so that could account for things being sometimes one year 487 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: different sometimes two, depending on who did the math of subtraction, 488 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: who converted the ages to UH from like the Asian 489 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: stand the Korean standard to Western standards, and who didn't 490 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: write well. And I think when we were recording the episode, 491 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: I just assumed wrongly perhaps um that like often when 492 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: we get into the ages of people in the more 493 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: distant past, often there are inaccuracy. Just attributed it to 494 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: that being the way that it works sometimes because it 495 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: didn't really occur to me that if a if a 496 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: source were translating from Korean, that someone would change that 497 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: year without noting that they had done so, which I 498 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: don't know why I would think that that would automatically 499 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: be a thing, because it's clear that often UH, translations 500 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: and history books and things take liberties that they maybe 501 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: should not without noting that they've done that. Yeah, well, 502 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: and it's one of those things that sometimes, uh, to 503 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: them it seems so obvious. Of course I transliterated the 504 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: year to the to what the Westerners would think it was, 505 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: or vice versa, or I kept it exactly the same 506 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: and didn't notate that it's a different aging system. Just 507 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating and cool and confusing confusing. Well, and 508 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: we I mean that's Tracy said. They're oftentimes where we're 509 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: looking up historical figures and there is some discrepancy just 510 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: because different records have fallen into different hands of people. 511 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: Different records may have been written with different penmanship that 512 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: isn't always legible, and so a best classes made. I mean, 513 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: there's so many different things that happen where especially the 514 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: further back you go, the more things get a little 515 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: wobbly in terms of exactness when it comes to dates. 516 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: But so that was cool. So thank you for all 517 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: of you that wrote in. And now I know a 518 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: new thing, all right. I love knowing new things. If 519 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: you would like to write us, you can do so 520 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're also on 521 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, slash missed in History on Twitter at 522 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: missed in History, on Tumbler at missed in History dot 523 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: tumbler dot com, and you can find our Pinterest boards, 524 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: which are very very busy places these days. Just pinterest 525 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: dot com, slash missed in history. Uh. 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