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Speaker 1: Special counsel Robert Mueller has impaneled a federal grand jury

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Speaker 1: in Washington in his probe of Russia's meddling in the

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Speaker 1: election and possible collusion by Trump campaign associates. According to

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Speaker 1: three people familiar with the investigation, that and the expansion

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Speaker 1: of his team with high profile lawyers expert in international bribery,

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Speaker 1: organized crime, and financial fraud indicate that Mueller's investigation is

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Speaker 1: escalating likely passed simply a report to Congress. President Trump

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Speaker 1: did not comment directly on the grand jury when reporters

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Speaker 1: shouted questions at him, but he did repeat his allegations

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Speaker 1: that the investigation is a fiction at a rally last

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Speaker 1: night in West Virginia. The Russia story is a total fabrication.

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Speaker 1: It's just an excuse for the greatest loss in the

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Speaker 1: history of American politics. Ty Cobb, special counsel to the President,

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Speaker 1: said in a statement that he wasn't aware that Mueller

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Speaker 1: was using a and jury, but the White House favors

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Speaker 1: anything that accelerates the conclusion of his work fairly. Our

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Speaker 1: guests are Jed Sugarman, professor at Fordham University Law School,

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Speaker 1: and Jeane Healy, vice president at the CATO Institute Jed.

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Speaker 1: There's been a great deal of hype about what the

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Speaker 1: impaneling of the grand jury in DC means and can

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Speaker 1: mean a lot of things, but prosecutors often work with

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Speaker 1: dedicated grand juries. Investigations tell us about that, so this

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Speaker 1: is not It's not so surprising that that Mueller would

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Speaker 1: be getting to a grand jury at some point. But

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Speaker 1: there are several things that are really significant about this.

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Speaker 1: It's it is rare to have a dedicated special grand

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Speaker 1: jury for um an investigation, and I think one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest things is that this indicates that there will

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Speaker 1: be a strong focus and sustain uh commitment to a

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Speaker 1: series of investigations. It's also worth noting that it shifts

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Speaker 1: the grand jury from Virginia to Washington, d C. That's

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Speaker 1: a big deal for who will be on the jury.

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Speaker 1: That's a much more democratic tool to draw from that.

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Speaker 1: Lets of a big deal for the grand jury, which

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Speaker 1: will issue indictments if the prosecutor wants them. It's a

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Speaker 1: much bigger deal for the trial jury, for which you

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Speaker 1: need unanimous convictions. Well, Gene, what can we expect that

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Speaker 1: the grand jury will do? Is it going to be

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Speaker 1: hearing testimony? Will there be what what what actions can

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Speaker 1: we expect Mueller and his investigators to take now that

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Speaker 1: they have a grand jury and panels. Well, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to speculate. There's a report for Ruters that they've

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Speaker 1: issued the subpoenas related to the June meeting between uh

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Speaker 1: Don Donald Trump, junior man of Ford Kushner, and the

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Speaker 1: Kremlin connected lawyer. But I would agree that it does

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Speaker 1: seem uh, that this is an indication that this is

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Speaker 1: not gonna be wrapped up anytime soon, that it's thing

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Speaker 1: on two more serious matters. It just to clarify, Jed,

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Speaker 1: does the existence of the grand jury indicate that Muller

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Speaker 1: will be pursuing criminal charges of some kind? Well, it

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Speaker 1: certainly makes it far more likely. It's a grand jury

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Speaker 1: is a necessary step in a federal criminal investigation to

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Speaker 1: get from an investigation to an indictment. So, uh, it's

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Speaker 1: a necessary step, uh, And it doesn't mean that it's automatic.

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Speaker 1: I don't think people should jump to the conclusion that

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Speaker 1: the existence of a grand jury means that indictments are

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Speaker 1: coming or coming anytime soon. But you have to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind that what the grand jury allows is very

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Speaker 1: broad powers by a prosecutor there is no judge that

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Speaker 1: supervises the grand jury. It's the prosecutor, the grand jury,

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Speaker 1: and witnesses or even defendants in the room, and that's

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Speaker 1: all under oath. So not only does this sweet into

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Speaker 1: the investigation passive, and now anyone who appears before the

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Speaker 1: grand jury is under oath and if they say things

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Speaker 1: that are inconsistent, they're under new legal jeopardy. So this

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Speaker 1: really is a very powerful tool by a prosecutor who

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Speaker 1: is moving towards uh in investment, moving along an investigation

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Speaker 1: to move along much faster, and having a dedicated grand

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Speaker 1: jury to this particular investigation means that he has this

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Speaker 1: as a tool at his disposal at any time that

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Speaker 1: will have background. He doesn't have to start over with

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Speaker 1: every new grand jury with appearing murder cases or theft cases.

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Speaker 1: He has a grand jury that is devoted and will

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Speaker 1: be up to date with each step of the investigation.

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Speaker 1: That's why this is so significant. We've been talking with

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Speaker 1: Jed Sugarman, a professor at Fordham University Law School, and

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Speaker 1: Jean Heally, vice president at the Cato Institute, about Special

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Speaker 1: Counsel Robert Mueller and paneling a federal grand jury in Washington.

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Speaker 1: Jean Mueller has also been really banning his team rather

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Speaker 1: rapidly about sixteen prosecutors when last I heard, and high

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Speaker 1: profile and they have experience in international bribery, organized crime,

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Speaker 1: and financial fraud. What does that tell you? Oh, it

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Speaker 1: tells me it's a serious effort. And Uh. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I think is ironic in this whole

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Speaker 1: episode is the is how self inflicted all of this is.

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Speaker 1: It seems to me highly unlikely that we would have

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Speaker 1: had a special counsel if it weren't for the fact

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Speaker 1: that President Trump fired uh the FBI director, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: pushed a story uh that it was about the Cliname

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Speaker 1: email investigation, abandoned that story three days later. Instead it

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Speaker 1: was about the Russia thing, and basically put uh Deputy A. G.

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Speaker 1: Rod Rosenstein in a in a position where it was

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Speaker 1: almost inevitable, but you would have to appoint a special council. Um,

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Speaker 1: And I guess it just remains to be seen whether

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Speaker 1: they're going to be further self inflicted wounds as this

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Speaker 1: goes on. Jed, is there a need for the Senate

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Speaker 1: or and and the rest of Congress to take action

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Speaker 1: here to protect the integrity of the Special Council. I

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Speaker 1: think there is a need, and I think that um

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Speaker 1: what's what's very positive is that you've got members of

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Speaker 1: bipartisan effort in the Senate and in the House now

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Speaker 1: to put forward a statute. I think that's more important

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Speaker 1: as a signal to Trump that he shouldn't go further,

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Speaker 1: because now Congress is has a bipartisan effort to protect Mueller.

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Speaker 1: That's more important than with the statute they passed, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think any of us want to see UH

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Speaker 1: this go any further with or without a statute as

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Speaker 1: as a further clash between the branches. We just rather

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Speaker 1: have Mueller be able to have an investigation. And we

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Speaker 1: know sen that it's it's going to be up to

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Speaker 1: the new White House UH staff leader there, General Kelly

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Speaker 1: to to try to UH lead President Trump in the

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Speaker 1: right direction. So far, there's been no mention of trying

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Speaker 1: to fire Robert Muller. But if he did try to

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Speaker 1: do so before the Congress took action, would it's set

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Speaker 1: up a replay of the nineteen seventy three Saturday Night massacre.

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Speaker 1: It's very well might. I think it's remarkable that you've

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Speaker 1: that there is this bipartisan cooperation to try to uh

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Speaker 1: to head that eventuality off. You know, usually checks and

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Speaker 1: balances only really work when you have or or only

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Speaker 1: work well when you have divided government. But here you

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Speaker 1: have members of the president's own party, uh getting together

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Speaker 1: and a bipartisan fashion to try to prevent uh another

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Speaker 1: Saturday night massacre. Uh. So we will have to We'll

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Speaker 1: have to see. But it is if you want to

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Speaker 1: look for a bright side and all this, it is

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Speaker 1: nice to see Congress reassert itself this early in the

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Speaker 1: new administration. Jed. One of the things they've done is, uh,

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Speaker 1: they both parties seemed to be aligned on not allowing

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Speaker 1: for recess appointments by the president. What what is that about? Right?

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Speaker 1: This is very important because when there's a recess and

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Speaker 1: the constitution allows the president to appoint someone without Senate

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Speaker 1: confirmation for one year. So the speculation was that Trump

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Speaker 1: was going to fire Sessions because he was recused from

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Speaker 1: the Russian investigation, used the recess to appoint someone else,

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Speaker 1: and it really was pretty broad. He could have appointed

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Speaker 1: almost anyone else who had already been confirmed by the

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Speaker 1: Senate to he could have found someone who was a

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Speaker 1: loyalist that Tony to come in to the run the

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice as an Attorney general and fire uh

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Speaker 1: fire Mueller. Um without this, without a recess, Jake can't

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Speaker 1: appoint a new a G with that kind of flexibility.

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Speaker 1: It then returns if a word of fire Sessions, he

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Speaker 1: still could, but the line of succession is dictated and

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Speaker 1: much narrower to the career people who are underneath Rosen

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Speaker 1: Steam Jeane, we haven't heard that much about this grand jury.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it's apparently been going on for weeks before

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Speaker 1: there was some reporting about it. Um, it is under secrecy.

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Speaker 1: But the witnesses who come in, if he calls witnesses,

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Speaker 1: as we expect you will, if he subpoena's witnesses to testify,

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Speaker 1: could talk about it. Do you expect to seek to

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Speaker 1: hear leaks about this? I think there'll be enormous pressure

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Speaker 1: to get information about this. I mean, sir, only now

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Speaker 1: you're going to have reporters, uh, you know, hanging out

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Speaker 1: outside the courthouse trying to see who who who who's appearing.

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Speaker 1: Uh So I think there will be a good deal

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Speaker 1: of pressure for people to find out about what's going on.

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Speaker 1: And I suspect we'll we'll hear more about it, and

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Speaker 1: just in about a minute, Ging, do you think we're

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Speaker 1: going Jed, do you think that we're going to see

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Speaker 1: a lot of action right now that's going to get

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Speaker 1: leaked out or is it going to go quiet for

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Speaker 1: a while. I think it's been impressive about how little

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Speaker 1: leaking there's been from the mullarks from inside the Mueller team,

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Speaker 1: compared to how much unprecedented amount of leaking there has

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Speaker 1: been from the White House. Uh. This I think reflects

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Speaker 1: on Mueller's professionalism and the professionalism of his really prestigious

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Speaker 1: team of lawyers quite a contrast. I want to thank

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Speaker 1: you both for being on Blueburg Law. That's Jed Sugerman.

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Speaker 1: He is a professor at Fordham University Law School and

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Speaker 1: Gene Heely, vice president at the Cato Institute, talking about

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Speaker 1: Robert Mueller is impaneling a federal grand jury in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Coming up on Bloomberg Law, a lawyer who's

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Speaker 1: making it less profitable to sue when companies merge. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about class action lawsuits and he represents dissatisfied members

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Speaker 1: of class action lawsuits. And then we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about the Supreme Court and its business cases his last term.

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Speaker 1: How well did businesses do? Very well? This is Bloomberg