1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bodybags, but Joseph's gotten more. Have you ever gotten a 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: phone call in the middle of the night and not 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: work related, but you have somebody that at least counts 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: you as a friend and they say, hey, can you 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: help me out with something? Unfortunately, I've had that call 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: that has come to me from jails every now and 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: then with friends that made really bad decisions, primarily involving 8 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: an alcohol. 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 2: However, today. 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: On body Backs, we're going to talk about case actually 11 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: cases that so caught the attention of America, not merely 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: because it was one lady helping out another, but the 13 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: absolute gruesome nature of their murders was something that most 14 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: of the people around the United States could not begin 15 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: to comprehend. This is a follow up to an earlier 16 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: episode of body Bags, I think from back in April 17 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: of twenty four, but today we have more information. Today 18 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: we have the autopsy report of Jillian Dolores. 19 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 3: Kelly. 20 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this. 21 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: Is body Bags. Dave. 22 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: I know you. I know you better than you might think. 23 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: I know that if you've got a friend and they 24 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: called you up to say can you help me with something? 25 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: You're the dude that would hop in your shoes, grab 26 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: your keys, and head out to your car and go 27 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: do this. How much more so if maybe it was 28 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: where you're put in almost a custodial position with people 29 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: that have, you know, kind of a fragile existence, perhaps 30 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: they're really down and out, and the court says, we 31 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: trust you to take care of this person. I know 32 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: that you would do that. I even think that maybe 33 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: you have done that, Joe. 34 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 4: You know, I have been the person that gets the 35 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 4: call in the middle of the night, and I don't 36 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 4: mind it. It's actually an honor and a privilege to 37 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 4: be that person. It is inconvenient, you do looselyep, but 38 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 4: it is an honor to be there for somebody when 39 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 4: if they feel like the guy nowhere else to turn, 40 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 4: because you earn the right to share the truth with them. Then. 41 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 4: But I've had the opportunity to be every aspect of 42 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 4: the case we're. 43 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: Dealing with to day. 44 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 4: With Jilly and Kelly's autops I'm gonna tell you what 45 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 4: this woman is, the Saint Joe. Jillian Kelly is married 46 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 4: to her pastor husband. They got married in twenty two 47 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 4: thousand and two. They have four children. Jillian Kelly works 48 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 4: with children in the church. She's the church secretary. Just 49 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 4: a wonderful woman. Veronica Butler has supervised visitation with her children. 50 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 4: Veronica Butler and Wrangler Rickman have two children. Tiffany Adams 51 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 4: is Wrangler Rickman's mom. That makes her the paternal grandparents 52 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 4: to Veronica Butler's children. Veronica Butler had trouble in her 53 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 4: life in the past, enough so that she lost custody 54 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 4: of her children to Tiffany Adams. But now she's righted 55 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 4: her life. She's in church, she's engaged, she's got a job, 56 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 4: she went back to school. Her life is on track. 57 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: Man. 58 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 4: Veronica Butler's doing good, so good. In fact, she's going 59 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 4: back to court and they're going to award her custody 60 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 4: of her children. She's getting her children back. She's excited, 61 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 4: but she's still at this moment has custody every I mean, 62 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 4: she has a supervised visitors with her children every Saturday. 63 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 4: And Tiffany Adams was not about to give up Cutseydy 64 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 4: of those children to Ronica Butler. She didn't care if 65 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 4: that's her mom. She wanted the children and that was it. 66 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 4: So Tiffany Adams calls the woman who regularly supervises visitation 67 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 4: for Veronica Butler and cancels it. Tiffany Adams tells her, 68 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 4: we aren't gonna need you this time. I'll call you 69 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 4: when we need you again. Then she calls Veronica Butler 70 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 4: and says, hey, Veronica, the court liaison, the supervisor of 71 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 4: visitation just canceled. I don't know what we'll do, and 72 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 4: Butler says, that's okay. I've got somebody. She goes to 73 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 4: Jillian Kelly at church. Jillian says, sure, I'll go. They're 74 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 4: not buddies or palas, but they're friendly, and Jillian says. 75 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 3: Sure, I'll beat the guy. I'll go with you. 76 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 4: So Veronica Butler gets Jillian Kelly and here they go. 77 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 4: They are going to meet to get the children on 78 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 4: March thirtieth. That is what they're going to do. It's 79 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 4: arranged for them to meet at this well, it's a 80 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 4: close tog station now, but that's where they were going 81 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 4: to meet to exchange the children. Bronica Butler would pick 82 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 4: them up there and she and Jillian would take Kendall 83 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 4: and the other child and go to the birthday party 84 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 4: that was planned for Kendall. Well, they never showed up 85 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 4: at the birthday party and the family starts calling, hey, 86 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 4: Bronicum and Jillian never showed up with the kids, what's 87 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 4: going on. That's when we first got this story. These 88 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 4: two Kansas moms going to pick up the kids, never 89 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 4: arrived with them. What happened. 90 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: I've covered so many cases and work so many cases 91 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: over my career where people did not realize that that 92 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: moment tom when they walked out of the door they 93 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: looked into the eyes of their spouse or to their 94 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: precious babies, that that was going to be the last 95 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: time they ever saw them. And how much more so 96 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: not seeing the future, not knowing that your life is 97 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: going to end literally at the hands of a mob 98 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: on a dirty, dusty road and a panhandle of Oklahoma. 99 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: I'm born witness to some let's just say, odd and 100 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: disturbing things in the autopsy suite. And you never, and 101 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: I mean this with everything that's in me, you never 102 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen when you open a bodybag. 103 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: Period. 104 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: You really you don't know what has been brought in 105 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: from the field. Because many times, in my case, I'd 106 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: work at night as an investigator, I'd be the autopsy 107 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: assistant during the day and it might not be my case. 108 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: I may have read over a thumbnail description, but Dave, 109 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: when you come into an autopsy room and there has 110 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: been a gigantic deep freezer that has been brought from 111 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: a scene that still has straps on it, you suspect, 112 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: as an investigator at scene, that what you're going to 113 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: have in there is going to be very bad. But 114 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: when you open when you open that door and you 115 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: look inside of there, there are things in my brain 116 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: right now that I'm recalling as I'm talking right now, 117 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: I can still see those images. I can still get 118 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: hit and even after all these years, I can still 119 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: get hit in the face with that smell that emanates 120 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: from the sealed area, which in effect is a casket 121 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: for not just one, but for two women. Dave, it's 122 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: it's a monumental undertaking. And I think people many times 123 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: are shocked that we don't open things, it seems and 124 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: remove the items. If you have that body or bodies contained, 125 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: it's best to keep them contained, okay, And then you 126 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: bring them to a location that is well lighted. You've 127 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: got primo photography. You document the steps of opening up 128 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: this thing. And let me tell you one more thing 129 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: that would have been done prior to them ever, undoing 130 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: these large yellow straps that are on the outside this 131 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: freezer would have been thoroughly externally printed, dusted for prints, 132 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: looking for any kind of latent contact prints. It's a 133 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: sight to behold because you never know, never know what's 134 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: going to be contained inside out of any box like this. 135 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: I've had coffins I've had, I have had not a freezer. 136 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 1: I've had a refrigerator where the shells removed. I've had 137 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: blocks of concrete that have contained human remains where you have. 138 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: To chisel it away. 139 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: I've had cars where I've had multiple people killed in it. 140 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: And I used to think, being in charge, you're literally 141 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: if you're the investigator, you're in charge of the bodies. 142 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 1: And we all came to a consensus at the scene 143 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: that it would be better not to remove the bodies 144 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: from the car, but have them flat bedded to the 145 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: state crime lab and you cover it with a tarp, 146 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: and you know, like you have this horrible thought in 147 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: your brain that you're literally transporting bodies you're in I remember, 148 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: in particularly I eighty five in Atlanta, removing a car 149 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: to a local lot that had five people inside of it. 150 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: And all we had it covered with was a blue 151 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: crash tarp on the back of a flatbed. And you know, 152 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: as an investigator, you think your worst nightmare is that 153 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: the tarp is going to fly off, and here you're 154 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: gonna have, you know, bodies. If anybody's ever driven through 155 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: the hellscape that is the highway system in Atlanta, you 156 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: can get caught up in traffic. They don't they don't 157 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: move out of the way for a wrecker, they don't 158 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: move out of the way for cops most of the time. 159 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: But how much more so than the record and the 160 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: thing comes off. Can you imagine you've got kids, you know, 161 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: and you kind of look and you know it's even 162 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: to this day when I see things going down the 163 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: road that are strapped down on the back of a car, 164 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: like a freezer or something, I'm always thinking, I wonder 165 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: if that's empty. I wonder if it's empty. And I've 166 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: had a few times in my life since being on 167 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: the streets where I've seen police escorting flatbed trucks and 168 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: they've got a tarp over them, and I know what's 169 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: under the tar. The civilians stone around you. But you 170 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: you want to maintain that pristine nature. 171 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 3: I was going to ask you when all right? 172 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 4: When they got there in the in this particular case, 173 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 4: investigators determined where Tad Cullum, that is, the boyfriend of 174 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 4: Tiffany Adams, had dug the hole and everything ahead of time, 175 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 4: and they found the bodies at the scene. They were 176 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 4: ten feet down, okay, a ten feet deep hole had 177 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 4: been dug. The freezer was placed at well, some items 178 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 4: were thrown in, A phone and some other items of 179 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 4: evidence were thrown into the hole. Then the freezer was 180 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 4: dumped in there. Then cement block and everything else was 181 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 4: then thrown into the hole and then dirt and everything 182 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 4: else mashed down when they got it dug up. You 183 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 4: said that they're not going to they're not going to 184 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 4: take anything out right then, but they still have to 185 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 4: identify what is in the freezer, even though they believe 186 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 4: it to be Veronica Butler and Jilly and Kelly but well, 187 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 4: they're not going to do a big examine. 188 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: And at the scene, just full disclosure here. They did 189 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: briefly open it at the scene, so they cracked, You 190 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: cracked the side of it, and there had been tape 191 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: that was adherent on the outside. It's you know, when 192 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: this thing is brought to the me. Even in the 193 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: report section of the autopsy report. And when I say 194 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: report section, it's actually the medical Legal investigations subheading in 195 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: the report, they allude to the fact that tape was 196 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: no longer there, So that leads me to believe it 197 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: had been taped shut at some point in time. Now 198 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: they had to strap this thing down. But yeah, so 199 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: they they would have lifted this thing at the scene, 200 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: peaked over the edge into the cooler or the freezer 201 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: to assess what was in there, because you know, you 202 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: don't necessarily know, you have your suspicions. Okay, And here's 203 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: another thing, and I know this sounds really far field, 204 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: but if this scene was booby trapped in some way, 205 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: I mean, you're talking about a double homicide. Okay, it's 206 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: not beyond the pail to think that someone that was 207 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: willing to commit this kind of homicide would you know, 208 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: perhaps uh, put other people at risk. All right, you 209 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: don't know. You never know what you're going to get, 210 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: you know, when you open any door. 211 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 3: Whether it's every Yeah, to me. 212 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: It's terrifying. I've had friends that have that have gone 213 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: on to booby trapped scenes where people have committed suicide 214 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: and they booby trapped with weapons. I have one friend 215 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: it's almost shot in the in the chest with a 216 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: three to eight deer rifle because he opened a closet 217 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: and it had a trigger on it, a line trigger 218 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: tension thing. No, and he happened to be the round 219 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: actually passed in front of him. So my my paranoia, 220 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: I guess, is that the right term is not unwarranted. 221 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: I look at all of these things as if because 222 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: I want to go home at the end of the day. 223 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: So you guys, get the breezer back in and you 224 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 3: get it. You're afraid as you're getting ready to. 225 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: Do Yeah, wow, yeah, I know it's terrifying, and. 226 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 3: I was terrified by what was inside. 227 00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 2: Not not a bomb. 228 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: Body, listen, man, Look, I don't put anything past anybody 229 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: that'll commit a homicide, particularly of a stranger and then 230 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: a mother, if they're willing to eradicate them off the 231 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: face of the plant. My life means nothing to them whatsoever, Okay, 232 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: or my colleagues that might be there. And that's just 233 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: like one of the little boxes that you want to 234 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: tick and check at that point in time and try 235 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: to understand that. But once you get past that. You 236 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: have to take due care because, Dave, this freezer, this 237 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: deep freeze, had been it had the utility of a coffin, right, 238 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: actually a casket it was. Yeah, and then I don't know, 239 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to this question. I'm just 240 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: throwing this out there, all right. Let me give you 241 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: the dimensions on this just so that you and our 242 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: friends can appreciate it. So, not only did they have 243 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: this rather large freezer, okay, but you'd mentioned something just 244 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: a second ago, there was a slab of concrete that 245 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: was placed on top of it. 246 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: Dave. 247 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: Let me give you the dimensions. Are you ready, brother, yep? Okay, 248 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: The dimensions of the slab of concrete are ninety two inches. 249 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: Keep in mind, six feet tall is seventy two inches, okay, 250 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: by sixty inches okay? 251 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 2: All right? 252 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: That's with linked with and the depth of this thing. 253 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: The thickness of it, dude, the slab is eight inches 254 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: in thickness. 255 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 3: Holy moly, do you realize what. 256 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: Kind of equipment you would have to have in place 257 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: in order to move a slab like that? I mean, 258 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: you could have I don't know, maybe you could have 259 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: a bunch of really a bunch of robust country boys 260 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: that could, you know, put to dig their hands into 261 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: it and drop it down. But I'm not thinking that. 262 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: I'm thinking this is something First off, you have to 263 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: acquire it. Where do you even find a slab of 264 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: that size that's bigger, that's actually bigger than a slab 265 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: that you would find on top of a standard grave site, 266 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, if you go to the two huge to 267 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: the cemetery. Yeah, and you're walking along and they've got 268 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: the big slabs that are laid down the ground. There's 269 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: a headstone, there's that's bigger than that. This is something 270 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: that you would only see probably in construction, all right, 271 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: and it's that's one of the most striking things, you know, 272 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: when they would have gotten out to that scene, to 273 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: the grave site and begun to assess this scene. And 274 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: remember this is a give or take. Hang on, I've 275 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: got to review this real quick because yeah, you're talking 276 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: two weeks down range, right, we don't know what the 277 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: weather was like. They went missing back in March. They're 278 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: found in April. I know what I would be really 279 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: interested in knowing is, first off, what type of tracks 280 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: are around the gravesite, because if you're talking about front 281 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: and loader or skid. 282 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 3: Steer or a skid steer or somebody. 283 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: It's going to be very distinctive. It's not going to 284 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 1: look like tire tracks, dude, And you're talking about carrying 285 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of weight, not that those things aren't 286 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: made for that, but if you think about that and 287 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: the pressure that's going to be applied directly on those tires, 288 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: the supporting element of that vehicle and pressing it down 289 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: into the dirt, if you're carrying a heavy load, you're 290 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: going to get come away with really good impressions from that. 291 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: And that's very specific to that piece of equipment. This 292 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: isn't just like a truck Papa's truck driving down a 293 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: country road. This is something that's very specific. And why 294 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: would you have a skid steer out in the middle 295 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: of a field like this. 296 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 3: Well, actually it was the area that it was. 297 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 4: It was about fifty feet from the dam and there 298 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 4: was like a shed area out there that Tad had 299 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,239 Speaker 4: been working on and he notified the owner of the 300 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 4: property that he was leasing part of it from that 301 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 4: he was going to be doing some work out there. 302 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 4: You know that he was going to be burying some 303 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 4: ce men he had told him that. Then this is 304 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 4: two days before the bodies were the two days before 305 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 4: Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly went missing. He tells the 306 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 4: guy that owns the place, you know, the work he's doing. 307 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 4: Then after they go missing, he tells the owner, Yeah, 308 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 4: I'm a suspect. They're missing, and you're a suspect, really, 309 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 4: And that's why this fell apart so quick, because I dude, you. 310 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: Know, in your brain, okay, let's just say you're. 311 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 3: Going to tell anybody you're a suspect. 312 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking let's go back before that, because you know, 313 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: this is one of those moments where you say, does 314 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: your mind work? You know, you're sitting there and you're 315 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: thinking about this, So you're leasing, not purchasing your leasing property. 316 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: Guess what happens to Lisa's Lisa's runout. Yeah, the property 317 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: own you know, still retains this. So if he's going 318 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: to go in I don't know and drop a crop 319 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: of whatever it is they grow in Oklahoma, weed or 320 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: corn or whatever it is, and all of a sudden 321 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: his plow gets hung up on the lip of this thing. 322 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: Do you not do you in what universe? Do you 323 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: think that this is not going to be discovered. My 324 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: thought was, and this is so horrific, but I'm going 325 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: to go ahead and say it, because this is what 326 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: we talk about on body bags. 327 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: Did did they have. 328 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: Plans perhaps to passively render these bodies down inside of 329 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: this thing, come back later when the heat was off, 330 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: draw it up, or take out those remains and dispose 331 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 1: of them in some other way. I toyed with that idea, 332 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, because I can't. I can't make sense of it, 333 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: you know, just the leasing element alone. But you know, 334 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: if you're using a skitzteer like this, it's not going 335 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: to take too long to facilitate a big hole in 336 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: the ground, if you will. And that's certainly what happened. 337 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: And again, Dave, as we mentioned earlier, what does this 338 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: go to, Well, it goes to I don't know, something 339 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: called premeditation, yep. 340 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 4: And that's the killer on all of this. It's the 341 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 4: fact that this was planned out, thought out, and they 342 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 4: thought this was the best they could come up with. 343 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 4: By the way, the location of the bodies in the 344 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 4: freezer eight miles from where the car was stopped, okay, 345 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 4: eight miles from where they were abducted, is that's how 346 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 4: this was all planned out, Joe. Now they've got the 347 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 4: freezer out and you're now transporting it. It's taped, it's tarped, 348 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 4: and everything else. It gets back to the lab and 349 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 4: other than a cursory, perfunctory look to see there are 350 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 4: two bodies on the inside that two bodies were looking 351 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 4: for and shutting it. They don't know if there's anything 352 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 4: else in there. They don't know if this freezer has 353 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 4: other things, other people even they just know they saw 354 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 4: two bodies that the women they're looking for. And so 355 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 4: back of the lab when you open it up, we 356 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 4: know that they've been in there for two weeks at least, 357 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 4: you know, because we know when they went missing, and 358 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 4: we know when they found the freezer. 359 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 3: So there you go. 360 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 4: They were killed the day they were abducted, apparently, is 361 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 4: what it appears. Based on the road, based on the 362 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 4: blood at the scene in the road, based on the 363 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 4: blood in the vehicle where the vehicle came to rest 364 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 4: one thousand feet from the road, Take two and two, 365 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 4: they were dead. 366 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: And the broken of the broken hammer, which is a 367 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: nice a nice touch, right. 368 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, chances are if they break a hammer beating you, 369 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 4: you're not surviving that beating. 370 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: No, you're not. 371 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 4: But once they get them back to the crime lab 372 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 4: or the where do they take these to do an 373 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 4: autopsy with the state. 374 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're going to go in and it's dependent the 375 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: Oklahoma does not have corners, all right, and this is 376 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: where they have. Yeah, they have, they have, and it's 377 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: a fine office. They actually have a state medical examiner. 378 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: So the state is kind of regionalized, all right. And 379 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: you've got the Central Division, the Eastern Division. I think 380 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: the Eastern Division is based in Tulsa, and of course 381 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: the Central divisions in Oklahoma City. 382 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: You know what, I just remembered. 383 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: What's up? 384 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 3: Though? 385 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 4: You have told me how good they are in Oklahoma 386 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 4: in the system they use. 387 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 3: I just remember. 388 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 4: It just came to mind that you've bragged about how 389 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 4: good they are before. 390 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: Well, I'm a big fan of medical examiner systems, particularly statewide, 391 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: that are not administered by police or the law enforcement agency. 392 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: If you have a a state medical examiner that is 393 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: administered primarily by the Health Department, it turns out better 394 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: for everybody. Because you know, for us in my world, 395 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: and uh, we're not merely interested in homicides. We do, 396 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, we handle more natural deaths, 397 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: so that you know, that feeds directly into the mission 398 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: of Public Health and state the State Health Department, and 399 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: we work you know, they work with the police, they 400 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: have investigators and all that, but their job is different. 401 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: So in most places, I can't speak specifically, but I 402 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: would imagine that they might have a separate decomp room, 403 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: which many facilities I have been, and we kind of 404 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: break it down like this where you have a clean, 405 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: clean area and then a decomp area, and even the 406 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: bodies are stored separately. You don't have decomp bodies most 407 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: of the time the main cooler with fresh dead and 408 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: you can do more in that environment. Anthropologists generally has 409 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: a space in there so that they can do their exams, 410 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: which are mind blowing that we can talk about another time. 411 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: But you have that environment there that has to be controlled. 412 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: And when you go into this thing, everybody that is 413 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: in this room, Dave, they appreciate the fragility of everything 414 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: that is contained not just within the freezer but also externally. 415 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: So kind of the cast of characters you're going to 416 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: have in there is probably going to be the lead investigator. 417 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: You're going to have maybe a couple of medical, legal 418 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: death investigators and an autopsy assistant in there, the primary 419 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,479 Speaker 1: or the medical examiner, the forensic pathologists directing everything, and 420 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: then there will there's a high probability you're going to 421 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: have a crimsne tech there as well. And so what 422 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: will happen is that one of the emmy investigators will 423 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: take photographs for the medical examiner, but the crimsing investigator 424 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: will also take photographs, but for their purposes. It's for 425 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: their reference. Okay, so you've got two sets of photography. 426 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: Many times with a case that's going on like this, 427 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: not always the time. Sometimes you'll have people that have 428 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: this kind of sharing, you know, of of the images 429 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: back and forth. No, it's on you. You take the 430 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: photographs today. But you know, the doctors, like cops are 431 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily interested in taking pictures of organs or the 432 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: detailed anatomy. And there is a specific practice called medical 433 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: photography that you get really good at because you have 434 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: to understand anatomy. And I'm not I'm not sliding uh 435 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: police police photographers, but in our world, in the medical 436 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: legal world, you need a specific skill set in order 437 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: to appreciate what the physician is talking about, like if 438 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: he says or she says, I want police take a 439 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: photograph of the right greater horn of the highwaid bone. Wow, 440 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: the crumbsing detective is not necessarily going to know what 441 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: they're talking about. 442 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 443 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just not going to do it now. The 444 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: you know, I've seen, you know, uh forends of pathologists 445 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,239 Speaker 1: that will give almost a primal grunt and point. I 446 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: used to work with with one forensic pathologist in the 447 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: past that would use his knife to point at everybody. 448 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: It carry a huge Bosher knife and it was always 449 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: covered in blood and he would he had this kind 450 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: of primal grunting thing that he would go and he 451 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: had very interesting personality to say the least, but that's 452 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: how he would direct you. But if you have somebody 453 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: that's familiar with human anatomy and all of those anatomical 454 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: points or landmarks that we're looking for not just externally 455 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: but internally when the body is open. So that's kind 456 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: of the cast characters here. And you don't know what 457 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: type of evidence is going to be recovered. And let's 458 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: just say because at this point when you open up, 459 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: when you open up this this freezer, you don't know 460 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: what the cause of death is. You have no idea. 461 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: That's why you're doing the autopsy. So when you open 462 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: this up, you could find things like ballistic evidence in there, 463 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: or if there is a projectile inside of the body. 464 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: I've seen I've seen medical examiners do two things. I've 465 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: seen them actually, in the case of a projectile, remove 466 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: it and they take a diamond tipped a diamond tipped 467 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: pen and yes, that's what I said. And they go 468 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: to the base of a projectile that's removed and they 469 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: will actually initially on the bottom and that indicates that 470 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: I'm the one that removed it, and they'll include that 471 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: in there. And then I've seen them take other bits 472 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: of evidence, including ballistic evidence, and turn it over directly 473 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: to a detective or to a crime scene technician that's 474 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: present at the autopsy. It's a weird kind of orchestration 475 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: that has to go on. And with this particular case cases, 476 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: this is dense material dave Scientifically, from a forensics perspective, 477 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: this is about as complex as things can get because 478 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: you're introducing something into the environment that is not it's 479 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: an unknown relative to the container itself. How are you 480 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: going to manage this and how are you going to 481 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: manage it so you don't screw it up, because if 482 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: you screw it up with really doing the big bold 483 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: opening of the thing, you can eradicate evidence because. 484 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 3: You only get one shotages you can and redo it. 485 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: You're absolutely no do overs, no mulligans. If you're a golfer, 486 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: you don't get to do it over because once it's gone, 487 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: it's gone. If there is even a hair, you know, 488 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: keep in mind with any kind of freezer refrigerator, Uh, 489 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: there's a big kind of rubber plastic foam gasket. 490 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: Right. 491 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: Well, okay, so let's pretend that somebody is has killed 492 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: someone and they want to put them into this. We've 493 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: already stated how deep this thing is, all right, how 494 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: deep this this freezer is. Well, you're leaning over the side. 495 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: Guess what you're coming in contact with your clothing. You're 496 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: coming in contact with the gasket that goes around there. 497 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: Guess what you can pick up on that gasket. Well, 498 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: any kind of fiber, evidence, hair, anything, you're shedding skin 499 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: that could be the perpetrator or at least the person 500 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: that was in concert with the perpetrator that is placing 501 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: that body down into that. So you have to even 502 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: be careful in that area because that freezer. First off, 503 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: the freezer is unique, the brand, it's going to have 504 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: a serial number. It's probably in most of those things 505 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: have got like a you know what I'm talking about, 506 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: it's got that kind of aluminum tag thing that's bolted 507 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: what it is, Yeah, and where it was manufactured even 508 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: and it probably in those little coating numbers they have. 509 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: I hope that somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, 510 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: but in those little they probably had the batch that 511 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: the thing came off the line with it. You know, 512 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: you can look at that number and go back to 513 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: the factory, frigid are or whoever it is and say, hey, 514 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: I've got this number. When did the thin come off 515 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: the line? Where did it go to? When it came 516 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: off line? When to big box store? A you go 517 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: to them and say, hey, I've got this. You receive dispatch. 518 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: Do you know who bought this? 519 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: Well? 520 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: Our record served. 521 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: I don't go back that far because I have to think. 522 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: My big question is is this freezer viable? Does it 523 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: still work or is it just something that they had 524 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: laying out back. Well, if it was laying out back, 525 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: freezer's not something you just walk by and ignore. Just 526 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: imagine the power of some witness that might have been 527 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: peripheral to the peripheral to these people. Prosecution puts them 528 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: on the on the stand and said, mister Smith, have 529 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: you ever seen a freezer similar to the one pictured 530 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: here in the image that you're taking a look at 531 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: in the past when you've come over for picnics or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 532 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: I've I've seen one like that. It was out back 533 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: of the bar, and they'd had it for years, and 534 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: I never could understand what they were keeping that thing. 535 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 3: For, keeping it for a makeshift cast. 536 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you just you never know. So I hope I'm 537 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: painting an effective picture here as to how critical all 538 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: of this is. And I'm so glad it thrills me 539 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: to my core that you said that you get one 540 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: shot at it, Dave. You know, because once you crack 541 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: this thing open, you're bearing witness to something that the 542 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: line share of people in their entire life, they live 543 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: five lifetimes, they're not going to see anything like what 544 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: was revealed when that door was open the day. Okay, 545 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,239 Speaker 1: I want all of our friends to understand what I'm 546 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: about to do here, because we don't get cases like 547 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: this most of the time. Just this past week, I 548 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: came into possession of the autopsy report from Kelly, and 549 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: I kind of want to break this down, break it 550 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: down for those that might be curious, and I'll kind 551 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: of we'll go through the highlights of it and talk 552 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: about it. With this proviso, there is a high probability 553 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: that within the next couple of weeks of this recording, 554 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: we're going to uh receive the second autopsy on Miss Butler, 555 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: will receive that autopsy report. It's at that point in 556 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: time we'll revisit and you know, kind of go through 557 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: that autopsy as well, because Dave, the physical findings you 558 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: know that you have described here, Remember how we've talked 559 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: about before, the dead do in fact have a tail 560 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: to tell, and it can be told in many ways. 561 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: I think probably the first thing that you're going to 562 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: look at when you have this kind of miniature and 563 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: I want to call it, this miniature crime scene that. 564 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 2: Literally literally is delivered. 565 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: To to the medical examiner's office, when your initial viewing 566 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: of this of the interior of the scene, this this 567 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: is like viewing two bodies laying on the floor in 568 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: a standalone home that have been executed, but yet that 569 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: dynamic is now brought into the autopsy suite. And so 570 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: when we crack that door open and we look within 571 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: this thing, the first thing I'm going to try to 572 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: piece together here is, well, what position are they in? 573 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: I think that that's probably one of the biggest tells. Dave. 574 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 4: All Right, So when they open it up, they look 575 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 4: in and they see there's dirt, there's fluid, there's straw, 576 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 4: and there are two bodies, and they can tell right 577 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 4: off that Veronica Butler is on top of Jilly and Kelly. 578 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 4: Jilly and Kelly have been put in first, Veronica Butler 579 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 4: put on top of her. Does that tell you, as 580 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 4: an investigator anything? 581 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing, and you can kind of. 582 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: Extrapolate some thoughts about this. I believe. 583 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: You could say that they were killed roughly at the 584 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: same time and then essentially discarded into this container. Okay, 585 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: I think probably one of the more chilling views of this, 586 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: because I still I don't know if there's any way 587 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: you could ever convince me that miss Kelly was the 588 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: target here, the primary target. Some people could perhaps say 589 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: that miss Kelly did die first, and because there's so 590 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: much hatred and anger directed at the target who is 591 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: Veronica Butler. You really wonder and I'm sure that this 592 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: is something that is it has been explored and is 593 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: continuing to be explored. I wonder if missus Butler, in 594 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: order to terrify her in some way, if she was 595 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: forced to watch Miss Kelly die. Miss Kelly died pretty quickly, 596 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: and I can go into that here shortly and then 597 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: following that Miss Butler is killed and her body is placed, 598 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 1: and I think placed is kind of a misstatement there. 599 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: I'm just going to say, tossed a side like rubbish 600 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: into this container. I think my big question is sequencing. 601 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: I don't know that we will ever be able to 602 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: address the specific sequence unless one of this, you know, 603 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: this kind of twisted confederacy rolls over on somebody else 604 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: that begins to, you know, as they say, sing like 605 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: a bird. Because I can tell you, I can tell 606 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: you that. Well, I'll tell you this though. This thing's 607 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: going to be tried in Oklahoma, and Bubba Oklahoma's got 608 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: death penalty and they are not shy about using it. 609 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 4: So they don't have to negotiate anything. They've already got. 610 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 4: They already have enough evidence Joe for all of the 611 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 4: involvement of these people, the pre planning that went into it, 612 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 4: the first aborted attempt to drop an anvil on Veronica 613 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 4: Butler's car while she's driving. Now you've got them there 614 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 4: together with Jillian Kelly, wrong place, wrong time, being a 615 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 4: nice woman. She ends up dead in a freezer. Now 616 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 4: they got to remove Veronica to get to Jillian Kelly. 617 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 4: They have to take Veronica Butler's body out of the freezer. 618 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, what do you do to do that? Because 619 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 2: they get in there for two weeks? Man, Yeah, you 620 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 2: get a big group of people. 621 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,760 Speaker 1: First off, you're going to document the bodies thoroughly inside. 622 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: I'm talking about not just the measurements of the body, 623 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: but the measurements of the interior. And this is kind 624 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: of interesting. I was giving us a think if you've 625 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 1: got any kind of like dynamic blood deposition that's inside 626 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: of that. 627 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 3: Okay, what do you mean by that? 628 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: Well, remember we got a broken hammer, right, yeah, And 629 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I think you don't know, you've 630 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: got a lot of commingle trauma here. I think with 631 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: miss Kelly, I don't know if the hammer's been used 632 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: on her as a means to kill her. It appears 633 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: based upon what I'm seeing that a sharp edged instrument 634 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: was used. They don't talk about lacerations, and as we've 635 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 1: talked about previously on bodybags, lacerations are generated by blunt 636 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: force trauma. And so that is the skin being struck 637 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: with something and baseball, bat ball, pen hammer, claw hammer, 638 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: a lamp, I don't you know, whatever it might be. 639 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: The skin literally tears and that creates a lacerational laceration. 640 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: Is not and let me repeat, is not a cut. 641 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: That's not what they're saying about. Miss Kelly. Miss Kelly 642 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: has and hold on to your hat here, Dave, Miss 643 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: Kelly alone and again keeping him on. She's not who 644 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: we would believe to be the primary target day she 645 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: stabbed or cut. She has sixteen sharp for use injuries sixteen. Okay, 646 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: she's not the primary and she's not the primary. So 647 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: I'm very interested to see what Miss Butler's autopsy will reveal, 648 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: because you know they're going to they would have been 649 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: doing a dual assessment at this point in time. My 650 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: suspicion is is that though we have Miss Kelly's autopsy 651 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: report released first, there's a high probability that they did 652 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: Miss Butler's autopsy Secondly, I don't know why it would 653 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: take longer to get her autopsy out to the public 654 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: unless maybe there is more trauma with her body that 655 00:38:54,560 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: required further assessment. I'm still not completely ignored wearing the 656 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: hammer you know that was found, because I don't know 657 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: what Miss Butler's injuries are at this time when I 658 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: see what they did. Though to Miss Kelly, nothing and 659 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: I mean nothing is off the table. And just so 660 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: let me break this down further relative to the injuries. 661 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: So with Miss Kelly, we're talking about nine stab wounds. 662 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 1: That means these are penetrating wounds where the knife is 663 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: being driven in to an individual stabbing. Okay, then we 664 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: have seven incized wounds. So just think about cutting an object. 665 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: If you've got vegetables, like they're on cutting board, Okay, 666 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: you can say they're being chopped, but they're actually being 667 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 1: incized or sliced. Well, in sized injuries are slices, Okay. 668 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: So the general the rule of thumb here is that 669 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: stab wounds are are deeper but more narrow, and in 670 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,240 Speaker 1: sized wounds are longer and shallow. 671 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 2: Okay. 672 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,720 Speaker 1: Now, I've seen in sized ones where they're really really deep, 673 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: but those are outliers, okay, for for our purposes. And 674 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: on top of this, she's got two more insized wounds 675 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:27,240 Speaker 1: that are that are noted that well, they're in the 676 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: they're in the description of the but they're they're very distinctive. 677 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,760 Speaker 1: And David, this is a big tail here. Miss Kelly 678 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: actually has actually has defensive wounds on her hand. Oh wow, 679 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: where she's grabbed the blade. She's actually grabbed the blade 680 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: and the blade has been drug through her finger and 681 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: it's on both hands. I think one of the one 682 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: of the insized injuries is the left index finger, okay, 683 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: and then the one on the right hand is actually 684 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,720 Speaker 1: the right thumb. These are not stab wounds to the hands. 685 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,919 Speaker 1: This is indicative of her trying to defend herself and 686 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: placing her hands up in a defensive posture, almost like 687 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: a boxer, and as the knife is coming, you grab 688 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: it and then the knife is withdrawn and it cuts 689 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: that surface. Now, her injuries primarily are lateral and posterior lateral, 690 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: which means on the side and then to the rear. 691 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: And Dave, there's nothing other than the hands. The hands 692 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,879 Speaker 1: are separate. There's nothing on her injury. 693 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 2: Wise where. 694 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: These insized injuries extend below the level of the shoulder blades, 695 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: so this is all up top. Well, what does that 696 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: tell me? That tells me that whoever did this was 697 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: in close proximity to her, And he said, Morgan, it's 698 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: kind of obvious. No, it's not, because you can have 699 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: somebody that's running away and being stabbed and they might 700 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 1: random stab These things are concentrated day and they're really 701 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: concentrated heavily on the neck. 702 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 3: Okay, they were kill shots. They were trying to kill. 703 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're going right, They're going right for the spine. 704 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,919 Speaker 1: And and I'm not going to say luckily here, I'm 705 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: going to say, how can I phrase this mercifully? I 706 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:30,439 Speaker 1: hope her her spinal cord is essentially severed. Where if 707 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: if you'll feel the back of your head, Okay, find 708 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: that kind of protuberant area that's on the back of 709 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,240 Speaker 1: your skull, that bump, that huge bump that's actually referred 710 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: to as the occipital protuberance or the ox a. Put 711 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 1: it's part of the brain, it's part of the skull bone. 712 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: Well that houses right there, that houses where our cerebellum is, 713 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: which is separate from the cerebrum, the cerebellum. Your brain 714 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: stem passes through there. That's literally where your spinal cord begins. 715 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,439 Speaker 1: Dave her her spinal cord probably at about the C one, 716 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: which is referred to as the atlas. The atlas is 717 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: the first vertebral body to call it atlas, because it's 718 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: like Atlas holding up the world. Her spinal cord is 719 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: cut right there, and the doctor has actually rendered an 720 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: opinion here that this is a non viable insult that 721 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: she has sustained. Uh mean, yeah, it's incompatible what the 722 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,240 Speaker 1: term they'd love to use, is incompatible with life because 723 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: you're you're now going into at that level, that that 724 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 1: cervical level, you're going in affecting the autonomic nervous system. 725 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: What does that mean, Well, your ability to breathe, your heart, 726 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: to function, uh, to sense those sorts of things. We 727 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: can only hope that that that was the case, uh 728 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: for you know, for for miss miss Kelly, and you know, 729 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:06,360 Speaker 1: under these circumstances. I think that when you know, you 730 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: begin to do an assessment like this, and she they 731 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: would have done this with with both of these bodies. Okay, 732 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 1: when her body is removed from this freezer, immediate. You can't. 733 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: You could, but you're not going to be very effective 734 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: her body. When her body is removed, the first thing 735 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: you're gonna do is X ray the body. People think 736 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: about bullets many times, leaving that kind of lead storm, 737 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: you know, the little particular bits of lead. Dave, did 738 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: you know that when you stab somebody, particularly if you're 739 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 1: striking bone over and over again, the blade will actually 740 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: shere a bit. And I've recovered I've actually recovered the 741 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: tips of blades buried in vertebral bodies where they've been 742 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,879 Speaker 1: it's been kind of snapped off. And so you would 743 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 1: X ray that, And how powerful is that image? You know? 744 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: And when you put up blood the images from an 745 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: autopsy report, sometimes they'll say no, no, no, no, no, 746 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: can't use those, they're too prejudicial. You use an image 747 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: of an X ray and you show, well, here's a 748 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: bit of steel or it's radio opaque. Rather that's showing up. 749 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: This is tied back to a knife. This gives you 750 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: an idea of placement, and you're not having to look 751 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: through gore. You're just looking at standard X ray, you know, 752 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: like you would get for pneumonia or head injury or 753 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: neck injury or broken arm. It's the same thing. So 754 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,399 Speaker 1: there's no gore involved with it, and it's very it's very, 755 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: very powerful, so you have to be very careful. The 756 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: only way though, I think that one of the big 757 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: questions here is when you read an autopsy report, you're 758 00:45:50,560 --> 00:46:00,839 Speaker 1: thinking that perhaps perhaps you can sequence these injuries. It's 759 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,320 Speaker 1: really really hard to sequence, you know, sequence an injury. 760 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is the order in 761 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 1: which these these insults or you know, we're struck, you know. 762 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 1: And what they'll do when you get when you get 763 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: a knife wound like this, they'll assign a random number. 764 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: And that random number that you see is not indicative 765 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,919 Speaker 1: of the order in which it occurred. It's merely there 766 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 1: as a guardrail to say, I've identified this one, and 767 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: this is what we're calling it number one. And like, 768 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: for instance, the first one that she sustained that they're 769 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: calling wound number one is a horizontal in sized wound 770 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,400 Speaker 1: to the posterior lower head, which means, if you again 771 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: put your hand back here below the occy put David 772 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 1: knife was drug over the surface of her scalp right there, okay, 773 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: and it's literally about ten centimeters below the top of 774 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: the head, you know, which I think translates to roughly, 775 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,040 Speaker 1: I want to say, about three inches, you know, down 776 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: the back of her head. So and it's it's that's 777 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: the distance below and it's about seven seven centimeters in length. 778 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:26,439 Speaker 1: It's three centimeters deep. 779 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 2: This is this is a deep. 780 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 1: Wound, Okay, that's passing through not just the hair and 781 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: skin and sub continuous fat, it's going all the way 782 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,680 Speaker 1: through that little layer of muscle and also striking you know, 783 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: striking the underlying bone. And one of the interesting things 784 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: they found out about this day, just this wound alone. 785 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,200 Speaker 1: This is how complex this is. Just this wound alone 786 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: generated three separate knife markings on the surface of the bone. Dave, Okay, 787 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: that's how ferocious this was. And they're talking about how 788 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: the lower oxy put or the eccipital protuberance was actually chipped. 789 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,400 Speaker 1: Do you realize how hard it is to chip a bone. 790 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:11,319 Speaker 2: It's so. 791 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: It requires a tremendous amount of power and directed force. 792 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 2: So this goes to. 793 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,920 Speaker 1: The idea that I think she would have been attacked 794 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,359 Speaker 1: while laying probably in a prone position, so she's on 795 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,320 Speaker 1: her belly. They talked about how her clothes are soiled. Well, 796 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 1: if you've got somebody and I had quoted, i'd use 797 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,240 Speaker 1: this term earlier with you. I think in the Bible 798 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,400 Speaker 1: there's a couple of times where they say the people 799 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 1: fell upon an individual, and when they fall upon an injury, 800 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,439 Speaker 1: that means that's an attack. Okay, So they fell upon 801 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,520 Speaker 1: this poor woman. I don't know if they've got multiple 802 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 1: people holding her down, but the individual would have been 803 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: exerting their downward weight on her back. Hence, that explains 804 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,000 Speaker 1: why you don't have injuries that are going any further 805 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,759 Speaker 1: south than the shoulder blades, because they're not going to 806 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 1: stab themselves. Okay, they're going to stab up okay or not, they're. 807 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 2: Going to be mean. 808 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 809 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 4: Now I couldn't figure that out when I was reading 810 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 4: over this before we started taping. 811 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,640 Speaker 3: I'm going through this going what in the world. I 812 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 3: couldn't figure that out. 813 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 1: So it's a tight cluster that's in here, and you know, 814 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about multiple injuries, and it looks like some 815 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 1: of these might be misstrikes. Like if you're if you're 816 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: trying to drive the knife down, Let's say you're focused 817 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: on on the on the spinal column itself, and you 818 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,480 Speaker 1: have or you know, in their mind the brain. Okay, 819 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: but you're striking the spinal column. This is not like 820 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,400 Speaker 1: some spy movie where some assassin walks up behind somebody 821 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,040 Speaker 1: and takes an ice pick or a knife and just 822 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: kind of pushes it up through the bottom. You know 823 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 1: that classic scene from Goodfellas in the back seat with 824 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,719 Speaker 1: the ice pick. That's a concentrated, specific area. This is 825 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,440 Speaker 1: a frenzied event, Dave, again, I think you can translate 826 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,720 Speaker 1: that into a lot of anger, you know, And why 827 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: would this precious woman have this much anger directed at 828 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,880 Speaker 1: her when she's you know, she's she's this you know, 829 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 1: this angel on earth that's trying to help, that's trying 830 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: to help help Miss Butler along the way. So you know, 831 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:29,360 Speaker 1: we've got we've got sixteen sharp force injuries that run, 832 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,719 Speaker 1: you know, essentially from north to south. These things are 833 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: highly complex. They're going through multiple, multiple areas of interest. 834 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,279 Speaker 1: Many of these things do in fact come along with hemorrhage. 835 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: And as we've discussed in the past, you know, if 836 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: you have an injury and there's indwelling in dwelling hemorrhage 837 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,799 Speaker 1: associated with it, then we know we know that the 838 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 1: individual's heart is still beating, okay, that the blood is 839 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 1: coursing through their veins, and because that it's a trauma response. 840 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: When you clip a vessel, even a capillary like that, 841 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,240 Speaker 1: a capillary bed, you're going to bleed out into that area. 842 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: So the doctor is actually seen with many of these, 843 00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:20,000 Speaker 1: is actually seeing presentation of hemorrhage along the way. And 844 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,959 Speaker 1: one of the more ghastly issues with this is that 845 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,480 Speaker 1: I hate to even really say. 846 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:28,719 Speaker 2: This, but. 847 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: Dave, four of her cervical vertebras are involved in this attack. 848 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:42,800 Speaker 1: You've got C two, C three, C four, C five. Okay, 849 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,840 Speaker 1: you've got the bony. If you've ever seen a spinal 850 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,320 Speaker 1: p hower a vertebral process, it's got these little horns 851 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 1: that stick off of it. They've in a couple of 852 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,839 Speaker 1: spots those horns have been broken off. Just featured that 853 00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:58,760 Speaker 1: just for a second. 854 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:05,440 Speaker 3: So this attack is absolutely vicious aget and. 855 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,239 Speaker 1: She's not even the intended target, David. That's I think 856 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,400 Speaker 1: that that's my my big, my big. 857 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,359 Speaker 2: Takeaway with this. 858 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: She's also got you know, these kind of like she's 859 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,960 Speaker 1: got a superficial in sized wound that's on the top 860 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 1: of left shoulder. There's there's no associated hemorrhage with that wound. 861 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:31,360 Speaker 1: That's a post tornum post mortem injury. But that's on 862 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 1: the top. And then if you if you go down 863 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,359 Speaker 1: slightly on the posterior left shoulder, so we're talking about 864 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: the left, you take your left hand, put it on 865 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,799 Speaker 1: top of your shoulder. That's the top of your left 866 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,640 Speaker 1: left shoulder. If you go behind its slightly dropped down 867 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:54,240 Speaker 1: just below that area. Uh, you've got another shoulder injury 868 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:58,040 Speaker 1: and the posterior left shoulder where there is hemorrhage. So 869 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:04,280 Speaker 1: they've been they've they spent quite a bit of time 870 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:11,480 Speaker 1: driving this knife both into her body, uh, slicing her body, 871 00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: and you know, as a you know, kind of an 872 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:19,360 Speaker 1: added bit here meeting her parry, which is you know, 873 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,759 Speaker 1: when you a sword term, you know, if you're going 874 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,920 Speaker 1: to parry, it's like a defensive moon move. She's pairying 875 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,479 Speaker 1: with her hands, so they've sliced her hands as well 876 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,840 Speaker 1: defensively on her parties defensively. So you've got all of 877 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:36,880 Speaker 1: these injuries that are specifically you know, tied tied back, 878 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, to to this poor woman and what led 879 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,400 Speaker 1: to her death. I think, you know, I'm hoping, I'm 880 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:51,360 Speaker 1: hoping against hope, Dave, that she did not experience the 881 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,480 Speaker 1: level of pain that could potentially be associated with all 882 00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,880 Speaker 1: of these insults to her body. I'm hoping against hope 883 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 1: that that strike that we talked about that was like 884 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,840 Speaker 1: C one C two region there, that it was a 885 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 1: fatal blow and that she didn't sense anything. But either 886 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:15,160 Speaker 1: way that you look at this case, the level of 887 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: brutality that is involved in this thing, you find it 888 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,040 Speaker 1: very difficult to plumb the depths of it because it 889 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,160 Speaker 1: is so very extensive. We're going to wait and see 890 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 1: what the autopsy of Veronica Butler reveals, but I can 891 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: tell you this, whatever happened out there in that desolate area, 892 00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,360 Speaker 1: it's the stuff of nightmares and things that we cannot 893 00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: even begin to fathom. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 894 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,040 Speaker 1: is Bodybots.