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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 1: super producer, all mission controlled decant. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Heads up, fellow conspiracy realists. Tonight's

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Speaker 1: episode explores at times graphic depictions of violence, murder, and assault.

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Speaker 1: As such, this may not be appropriate for all listeners.

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Speaker 1: We want to specifically thank Lorie Dollar who reached out

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Speaker 1: some time ago to contact us about this story. Let's

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Speaker 1: get into it. Here are the facts. What is the

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Speaker 1: Colonial Parkway? Have you guys? We talked about this off air.

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Speaker 1: I think a couple of us drove through it in

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Speaker 1: times gone by. But beautiful piece of land.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in Virginia. According to the National Park Service.

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Speaker 2: This is gorgeous and it has quite a bit of

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Speaker 2: a history to it. Right connects some old towns.

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Speaker 1: It does it does the technical or the real name,

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Speaker 1: the name it wears at home is way less interesting.

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Speaker 1: State Route nine zero zero zero three. It's a twenty

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Speaker 1: three mile stretch of road that goes in kind of

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Speaker 1: a horizontal arc, linking, as you said, Matt, the historic

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Speaker 1: Triangle of Virginia that would be Yorktown most famous from Hamilton,

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Speaker 1: Williamsburg and Jamestown.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty cool. Again. I'm going off mostly information that's

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Speaker 2: on that official you know, the official park Service website,

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Speaker 2: but it's got let's say, let's say this, the reason

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Speaker 2: why people seem to love it is because of that

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Speaker 2: history and because it is such a scenic travel by

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Speaker 2: foot kind of road or travel you know, you could

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Speaker 2: drive it, but you can travel by foot, you can

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Speaker 2: travel by bike, travel in other ways that if you're

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Speaker 2: just there, even though you're kind of couched amidst a

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Speaker 2: bunch of city area, it does feel like maybe you're

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Speaker 2: not in the city anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's picturesque, you know, and that doesn't happen all the

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Speaker 1: time with big conurbations like here in Atlanta and our

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Speaker 1: fair metropolis. We're all quite fortunate, except for Paul. We're

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Speaker 1: all quite fortunate to see things like Doll's Head Trail,

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Speaker 1: you know, or Sweet water. You can be in the

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Speaker 1: midst of the city and then surround it by greenery,

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Speaker 1: and that just doesn't happen everywhere, but it happens here

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Speaker 1: on the Colonial Parkway. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Boys, I can open my backyard, Open up to my

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Speaker 2: backyard now, and I just see forest.

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Speaker 1: Are you seeing d what kind of Yeah?

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Speaker 2: All kinds of deer kyoks? We got it all back here.

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Speaker 2: A black bear?

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Speaker 1: You got? You got a bear situation? Yeah, all right, Well,

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Speaker 1: drop your pants, exhibit dominance just so it.

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Speaker 2: Knows, just like whip it back and oh wait, no, wait,

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Speaker 2: what are we talking about?

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Speaker 1: Okay, to be clear, everyone, when you see a bear,

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Speaker 1: regardless of the species, please know you cannot PvP it.

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Speaker 1: It's not a vangalou and you also should not show

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Speaker 1: it you're junk.

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Speaker 2: Are you sure? All right? I'll take your word.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a bear expert. Also, also, Noel, you have

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Speaker 1: a you have a bit of a silence there, are you?

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Speaker 1: Are you thinking back to times you fought a bear?

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, how could I forget those? The bear times?

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Speaker 3: I was once a bit of a grizzly man askue figure.

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Speaker 3: Thankfully I did not go the way of Timothy treadwell

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Speaker 3: and I am with you today to podcast, but it

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Speaker 3: was dicey there for a while.

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Speaker 1: Guys, we're glad you're here. Man you can't and we're

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Speaker 1: glet you know, this stretch of road, this Colonial Parkway,

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Speaker 1: calls to mind the car stuff road trip we mentioned

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Speaker 1: occasionally where we took these historic parkways throughout different areas

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Speaker 1: of the US, and it's entirely at this point for tourism.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Colonial Parkway is not like the typical

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Speaker 1: highway you might think of. It's not inundated with billboards.

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Speaker 1: There's not a ton of strip malls and chain restaurants.

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Speaker 1: There aren't tolls, Semi trucks aren't allowed there. The speed

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Speaker 1: limit's pretty low as well. So if you're in a

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Speaker 1: hurry driving from point A to point Z, this is

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Speaker 1: not for you. But if you are there at the

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Speaker 1: right time of year and you like to kick back,

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Speaker 1: touch grass, as people say, and check out some stunning views,

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Speaker 1: then you take the Colonial Parkway.

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Speaker 2: Reach out and touch grass. That's the way. That's the

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Speaker 2: way I like to think about it.

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Speaker 1: You're personal theskew.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's uh, that's really good, bet.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: It is a Sunday drive kind of thing right back

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Speaker 2: in the good old days. It's a wonderful Sunday drive.

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Speaker 2: Which is kind of weird, guys, because this kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: while picturesque, while beautiful in so many ways, it also

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Speaker 2: there's kind of a dark side to something like this.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, in more ways than one. No construction means

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Speaker 1: no light pollution means uh, when it gets dark out there,

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Speaker 1: it gets start. There aren't even street lights whatsoever for

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Speaker 1: very long stretches of this, and not even purple ones,

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Speaker 1: not even purple or blue ones, right or whatever they are.

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Speaker 1: I trust you, guys, you'll tell me. But but there

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Speaker 1: are also a ton of like you know, if you've

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Speaker 1: ever been on a on a road in the US

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Speaker 1: and a rural area, especially around mountains, you might see

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Speaker 1: this thing where it says scenic overlook and there's a

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Speaker 1: little pull off, like a little ovular or half of

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Speaker 1: a circle kind of thing where you can just park

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Speaker 1: your car for a minute, get your photographs, breathe in,

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Speaker 1: smell the air, enjoy yourself. And this place is meant

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Speaker 1: to do that. It's purpose built for it. Since the

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Speaker 1: first idea came around in the nineteen thirties, And what

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Speaker 1: do we think when we hear the idea isolated places

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Speaker 1: where cars can pull off, you can take a brief

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Speaker 1: stop and enjoy the view. We all know people, so

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Speaker 1: if you know people, you're probably not surprised. This parkway

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Speaker 1: has also been for decades and decades even now it's

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Speaker 1: a top tier lover's lane. Oh, teenagers and young adults.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm, a really good spot to grab a pint of

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Speaker 2: ice cream and enjoy it by yourself in your little face.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh yeah, I can do that too.

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Speaker 1: Such a good boy, Matt.

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Speaker 3: Only you you go up to lovers laying alone, just

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Speaker 3: enjoy a nice pint.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Ben and Jerry's. Oh that makes it more suspicious.

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Speaker 3: But there is a little zodiac killer is man. I'm

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Speaker 3: not gonna lie.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, it's a.

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Speaker 2: Shame ice cream eating session and you're doing it alone

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Speaker 2: in nature as intended.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, officer, but my family can never learn about this.

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Speaker 1: Butter Pecat you never know, so okay. So for decades

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Speaker 1: this parkway was a known hook up location. The surrounding

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Speaker 1: communities accepted this barely a secret. If you're a local,

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Speaker 1: you know about it, and there wasn't much wrong with it.

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Speaker 1: It's the kind of situation where it's peak Americana. Law

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Speaker 1: enforcement might roll up and they might bust some kids

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Speaker 1: out too late, you know, like to the earlier point.

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Speaker 1: They might be getting to a quick I won't say

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Speaker 1: third base, but they might be playing shortstop, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the front of the back seat. And then law

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Speaker 1: enforcement will probably say, all right, if you're not drinking,

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Speaker 1: you're not doing drugs, you guys, get out of here.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell your parents, you know, go home,

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Speaker 1: let the lesson be learned. But if we fast forward

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Speaker 1: a few decades, what we see is the same isolation

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Speaker 1: that made this perfect for young adults making out and

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Speaker 1: tourists hunting those amazing views. It also made it a

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Speaker 1: perfect hunting ground for predators. And this is the story

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Speaker 1: of the Colonial Parkway murders. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: So what happened? What happened?

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Speaker 2: Well, we're not talking about predators like bears and you know,

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Speaker 2: a cougar or two or something like that.

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Speaker 3: None of my grizzly skills would have come in handy

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Speaker 3: at all.

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Speaker 2: No, we're talking about the most dangerous game. We're talking

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Speaker 2: about humans hunting humans front and this is this is

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Speaker 2: really interesting, y'all. That it's a specific timeline, right, only

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Speaker 2: a couple of years, what is it eighty six to

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Speaker 2: eighty nine, three years where it appears that someone was

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Speaker 2: hunting there and they had several I ben when I

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Speaker 2: was looking, I found four couple or four couples I guess,

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Speaker 2: or four individual instances that are confirmed, and then I

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Speaker 2: was seeing on lists maybe a fifth one, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't connected to the parkway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's strange because even now in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: mid February, as we record, law enforcement will tell you

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Speaker 1: there is no hard forensic evidence linking the groups of

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Speaker 1: murders that are collectively called the Colonial Parkway murders. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we do know these did not seem to be unrelated

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Speaker 1: or one off situations. The mo was just too similar,

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Speaker 1: too close. The authorities and the public alike. While they

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Speaker 1: have not officially called these all connected in terms of

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Speaker 1: what they're looking for in investigations, they are apply treating

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Speaker 1: them as such. They just can't rule out the possibility.

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Speaker 1: In each event, there's a couple usually pretty young, at

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Speaker 1: least one case of very disturbing age discrepancy, but young,

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Speaker 1: and they're sitting in a vehicle somewhere on or near

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Speaker 1: Colonial Parkway, including the actual interstate that bisects it, the

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Speaker 1: I sixty four. So they're murdered in different ways, stabbing, gunfire, strangulation,

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Speaker 1: one potential victim probably drowning. There's never any evidence of burglary,

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Speaker 1: and there's often but not always, no evidence of sexual assaults.

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Speaker 1: So this might call to mind things like the Son

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Speaker 1: of Sam murders. You know, the guy walks up to

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Speaker 1: the car discharges a firearm.

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Speaker 2: In the ones where there is sexual assault that appears

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Speaker 2: to have taken place. In what I've seen, Ben is

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Speaker 2: that it is the female victim that was assaulted. Male

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Speaker 2: victim often just killed, which does begin to lead you

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Speaker 2: down the pathway of a male killer here in this instance.

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Speaker 1: Right, and the demographics we know about serial murderers do

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Speaker 1: again show us that overwhelmingly serial predators who are apprehended

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Speaker 1: are proven to commit homicides are going to be male.

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Speaker 1: Please listen to that sentence closely, folks, because the big

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Speaker 1: caveat is we only know about the ones who are caught.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, like you're saying, the killer or killers also

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Speaker 1: drove the victims' vehicles away from the site of the

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Speaker 1: homicides in every case. That's the big imo. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's lots of wonder about we don't have

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Speaker 2: to get into right now, but just that that feels

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Speaker 2: like a very sophisticated move, right, because the moment, if

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Speaker 2: you are a killer and you come across a couple,

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Speaker 2: let's say that is making use of the Colonial Parkway,

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Speaker 2: as we were saying, it is used in the past

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Speaker 2: as a makeout spot. You off would probably encounter them

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Speaker 2: in their vehicle oftentimes or as we saw sometimes down

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about it, but down by the water, right,

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Speaker 2: which is another possibility where they're even more isolated moving

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Speaker 2: that vehicle to slow down the discovery of those bodies.

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Speaker 2: I think that's maybe one of the reasons why it

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Speaker 2: feels like a more sophisticated serial killer than just random

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Speaker 2: acts of violence. I think that the car thing is

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Speaker 2: a big deal.

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Speaker 1: Premeditation, familiarity with the local geography, also not panicking, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the part of the murderer. Yeah, it's there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of disturbing puzzle pieces here. We also know that

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Speaker 1: at this point the bodies of three couples have been recovered.

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Speaker 1: There is one case generally grouped with the murders wherein

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Speaker 1: a couple has disappeared, they have not been found to

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Speaker 1: this state, no official confirmation of death, but the vast

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Speaker 1: majority of people you speak with will believe that this

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Speaker 1: disappeared couple has also been murdered. Their bodies are just

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Speaker 1: somewhere out in the marsh yet to be found, or

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Speaker 1: maybe somewhere there in a river. We already see that

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Speaker 1: there are a couple of wrinkles. There are additional homicides

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Speaker 1: that have been tentatively linked to the four proven cases,

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Speaker 1: and again the bedeviling thing law enforcement to this day says,

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Speaker 1: we're investigating these things. We are aware of their commonalities

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Speaker 1: or appearing commonalities, but we have no hard forensic evidence

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Speaker 1: linking these So maybe we take a break for a

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. When we return, let's dig in.

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Speaker 1: Let's look at the timeline, and you'll see why this

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Speaker 1: is such a such a dilemma and an ongoing case.

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Speaker 1: Even more than three decades later.

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Speaker 2: And we've returned, and we've gone over the big picture,

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Speaker 2: let's start to look at individual cases, and Ben, I

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Speaker 2: think we start with Rebecca and Kathy. So it's Rebecca

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Speaker 2: Dawski and Kathy Thomas and This occurred on October twelfth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're on October twelfth, nineteen eighty six. A jogger

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Speaker 1: is just going around their usual exercise and they clock

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Speaker 1: something incredibly unusual. It's a white nineteen eighty Honda Civic

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Speaker 1: and it looks like somebody was driving and then maybe

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Speaker 1: swerve to avoid an animal or maybe just just had

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Speaker 1: a misstep on the wheel. They are crashed in a

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Speaker 1: Civic down an embankment at what is called the Cheatham

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Speaker 1: Annex Overlook that's about seven miles or so east of Williamsburg.

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Speaker 1: And this car I think primarily stands out to the

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Speaker 1: eye because of the white paint job. It's also just

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Speaker 1: a few feet, like a very disturbing number of feet

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Speaker 1: from dropping fifteen feet and plummeting into the York River.

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Speaker 1: So if it's an accident, they had a close call.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we really close call. Let's take ourselves just

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Speaker 2: really quickly into the mind of somebody who may have

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Speaker 2: tried to crash that car and hide it, especially if

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Speaker 2: we're talking about the darkness that existed on the Colonial

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Speaker 2: Parkway when the attack likely occurred at night. Maybe the

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Speaker 2: person thought that vehicle was sufficiently hidden and nobody would

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Speaker 2: see it. I think the color, as you said, Ben,

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Speaker 2: I think the color and just being that close to

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Speaker 2: the embankment. I don't know. I feel like a person

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Speaker 2: never wanted that vehicle to be discovered, but there were

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Speaker 2: just factors that they didn't they didn't think about. I agree,

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Speaker 2: and I think this is something that's going to come

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Speaker 2: into play later as we go down the line about

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Speaker 2: what this if it was one person, what they learned,

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Speaker 2: and the way they put those lessons into.

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Speaker 1: Action, and now it evolves, right. I mean that's a

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Speaker 1: question too, like what would you do if you are

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Speaker 1: a jogger and you see a car that appears to

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Speaker 1: have crashed. It's down a steep embankment, so it's going

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Speaker 1: to take you a while to get there. You would

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Speaker 1: probably contact the authorities. That's what this person did. A

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Speaker 1: highway patrolman goes there, finds this white hat, A civic

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Speaker 1: looks inside and finds the bodies of Kathleen Mary and

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Speaker 1: Thomas Kathy to her friends and Rebecca Ann Dawski Becky

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Speaker 1: to her friends. These two, by the way, were in

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Speaker 1: a romance antic relationship at the time, but they're not alive.

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Speaker 1: When the authorities find them. Dawski is in the backseat

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Speaker 1: and Thomas's body. For your familiar folks with a nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty Honda Civic, it's the hatchback. So Thomas's body is

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Speaker 1: unceremoniously stuffed in the hatchback.

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Speaker 3: Gosh, what a undignified way to go, shoved in the

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Speaker 3: hatchback of a nineteen eighty Honda Civic. I'm making light

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Speaker 3: that this is very gruesome stuff. And the autopsy showed

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Speaker 3: further grizzly details, including rope burns about the neck and

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Speaker 3: wrists of both of the bodies, which were looked at

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Speaker 3: as some telltale signs of strangulation. In addition, trigger warning

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Speaker 3: here for folks that maybe are averse to cutting, like myself,

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Speaker 3: their throats had been slashed as well, quite deeply, in fact,

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Speaker 3: so deeply that both bodies were nearly decapitated. That is

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Speaker 3: just what a brutal detail. Strangled and slashed, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: It just leads one to really start to think about

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Speaker 3: the kind of pathology I guess of the assailants. You know,

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Speaker 3: this is someone that this was not just a move

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Speaker 3: of convenience or a move to make sure that they

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Speaker 3: were dead. This was someone that had an aggressive, you know,

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Speaker 3: streak a mile wide, not this Just strangulation alone wouldn't

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Speaker 3: indicate such. But to the investigators, all these details added

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Speaker 3: up to the idea that the murderer's original plan could

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Speaker 3: have possibly been interrupted. The bodies had also been doused

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Speaker 3: in diesel, but not yet set on fire. So it

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Speaker 3: seems as though something, you know, a wrench was thrown

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Speaker 3: into the works here and there was a bit of

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Speaker 3: panic that.

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Speaker 1: Sets perhaps a reasonable or not reasonable I would say,

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Speaker 1: but logic set in the idea that igniting a car

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Speaker 1: fire would draw attention much more quickly.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. But the other thing that we know is

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Speaker 2: that this killer, whoever they were, left behind fingerprints and

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Speaker 2: not like they were wearing gloves when they were carrying

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Speaker 2: out the murders, and then they took the gloves off

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Speaker 2: and the accident left a fingerprint. No, the car, the

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Speaker 2: back of the car at where the victims were. This

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Speaker 2: car was covered in fingerprints, which again psychologically means dousing

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Speaker 2: the car setting on fire would get rid of that evidence, right,

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Speaker 2: But it didn't happen for one reason or another. My

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Speaker 2: mind takes me to whatever was happening was interrupted after

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Speaker 2: like after the diesel has already been poured, after they've

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Speaker 2: already been killed, they are where they are. This person

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Speaker 2: was going to just set the car on fire, but

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Speaker 2: then somebody's driving by got spooked and then decided to

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Speaker 2: just drive it where they drove it.

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Speaker 1: There's also the potential for a tight timeline on the

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Speaker 1: predator's side, which is needing to be somewhere so as

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Speaker 1: to not arouse suspicion right, leveraging the time gap such

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Speaker 1: that you have an alibi. Right. It works again in

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Speaker 1: pre cell phone era, so there's you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the other questions is why not push it the extra

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Speaker 1: few feet into the river right on that embankment. There

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Speaker 1: are there are questions. It does seem like it does

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Speaker 1: seem like early work, and it does seem as though

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Speaker 1: the killer was indecisive in terms of what their security

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Speaker 1: would be post event. But the fingerprints are interesting too,

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Speaker 1: because they are all over the inside the outside of

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Speaker 1: the car, their full fingerprints. They're what are called latent

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Speaker 1: or partial prints as well. No signs of a robbery.

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Speaker 1: Both victims have their person, they're intact, both victims are

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Speaker 1: fully clothed. Authorities find no sign of sexual assault. But

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Speaker 1: there is one vital clue. I think it's huge for

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Speaker 1: what we're going to see in the future. One of

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Speaker 1: the victims, Thomas, managed to fight back to a pretty

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Speaker 1: impressive degree, and the body was holding a clump of hair,

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Speaker 1: presumably from her murderer.

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Speaker 2: Yep, that's Kathy Thomas, by the way. And let's just

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Speaker 2: another quick thing if you're an investigator, this is the

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Speaker 2: same sex couple in nineteen eighty six. So when you

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Speaker 2: start to think about killer's motives, maybe that's something that

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Speaker 2: factors in right weight, I have to Yeah, maybe this

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Speaker 2: is a hate creme of some sort. Maybe that's the

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Speaker 2: reason why this couple was targeted. Until a year later,

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Speaker 2: another couple is targeted, and it seems to be a

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Speaker 2: different set of circumstances and yet very similar.

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Speaker 1: And still some of that anger in the murdering. Right,

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Speaker 1: this is not a surgical operation, right, it doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: to be such, and there's still un answered questions. So,

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Speaker 1: like you said, Matt, fast forward a year later we

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Speaker 1: meet David Knobling and Robin Edwards. It's September twenty First,

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Speaker 1: we'll go to the Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge close to Smithfield.

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Speaker 1: Any other day, it's a beautiful place.

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Speaker 3: September twenty first, nineteen eighty seven, a patrolman at the

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Speaker 3: Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge, which is pretty close to Smithfield,

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Speaker 3: finds a black Ford Ranger in the parking area and

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Speaker 3: the engine, the wipers, and the radio are all still running.

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Speaker 3: This is an eerie scene. Some pieces of clothing are

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Speaker 3: found inside. Both doors are open, the driver's window is

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Speaker 3: partially rolled down. The car is identified as belonging to

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Speaker 3: an individual named David Lee Nobling, a salesman, and his

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Speaker 3: wallet is discovered intact in the car. Authorities rule out,

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Speaker 3: as in the other case, robbery. Then two days later,

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Speaker 3: on September twenty third, nineteen eighty seven, Nobling's body washes

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Speaker 3: up on the shore along with an additional body belonging

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Speaker 3: to a fourteen year old by the name of Robin

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Speaker 3: Margaret Edwards. The tide carried them onto the shore of

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Speaker 3: the kind of beach area of this refuse his wildlife refuge.

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Speaker 3: The cadavers were about one hundred feet apart, both showing

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Speaker 3: signs of fatal gunshot wounds execution style for Nobling in

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Speaker 3: the back of the head, Edwards one in the head

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Speaker 3: and one in the shoulder that likely would not have

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Speaker 3: been the fatal blow. Both were clothed partially, and it

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Speaker 3: appeared as though the water was not responsible for removing

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Speaker 3: these items of clothes. Let me know, the water can

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Speaker 3: be pretty rough and you know there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: push and pull, and you know things can get removed

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Speaker 3: because of this. But the investigators did not believe that

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Speaker 3: was the case here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the story already astute listeners, you see, this

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Speaker 1: story is already pretty disturbing without an active murderer. Think

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Speaker 1: of those ages, Noel said. The salesman in this case

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Speaker 1: is twenty years old. The body discovered with him was

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Speaker 1: that of a fourteen year old child. The child Edwards,

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Speaker 1: her jeens are unfastened, her bras positioned around her neck. Originally,

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Speaker 1: investigators making some of the assumptions of the time are

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Speaker 1: not sure whether sexual assault took place. They are presuming

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Speaker 1: Knobling Edwards had a sexual relationship. So to them, they're thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: if this person already had a sexual encounter, does that

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Speaker 1: mean that they may have been assaulted and we won't

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Speaker 1: be able to tell due to the degradation of the bodies,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Et cetera. Later, they would conclude that Edwards

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Speaker 1: had indeed been sexually assaulted by someone who was not

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Speaker 1: Nobling or Noppling. The pair had last been seen on

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Speaker 1: September ninth, Edwards snuck out of her family home to

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Speaker 1: meet Noppling at an arcade. And this is not If

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Speaker 1: you look at the map, you'll see I said it

403
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Speaker 1: was close to Smithfield, it's closer to Carrollton, and it's

404
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Speaker 1: right on the edge of the James River across from

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Speaker 1: Newport News. And this means the bodies are not technically

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Speaker 1: found on the Colonial Parkway. But authorities don't exist in

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Speaker 1: a vacuum. They're well aware of the two women who

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Speaker 1: were killed last year, and they're saying both of these

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Speaker 1: murders occur in known Lover's Lane areas. And these two locations,

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Speaker 1: by the way, are a scant half hour from each

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Speaker 1: other via car.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're if you're going across that one bridge,

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Speaker 2: I was linking to that bend because it is really

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Speaker 2: it is weirdly close, especially with the James River as

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Speaker 2: the connector. Like if you could just draw a straight line,

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Speaker 2: it's pretty dang close. I can see why it's connected.

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Speaker 1: And if you were familiar with all the snaking waterways

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Speaker 1: and the non paved roads in the area, then you

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Speaker 1: would have various methods of entering or leaving the.

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Speaker 2: Situation, like if you had a fishing boat or.

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Speaker 1: Something, perhaps yeah, yeah, perhaps, and then okay, so no

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Speaker 1: public leads yet everything. Then these folks are doing good

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Speaker 1: police work. Everything they're finding it's a dead end, it's

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Speaker 1: a box canyon.

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Speaker 2: One more thing just to think about this when considering

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Speaker 2: the gunshot wounds to these victims, execution style to the

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Speaker 2: back of the head, to me, that speaks of the

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Speaker 2: first shot that was fired to take out the mail

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Speaker 2: of the two people that are standing there, or that

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Speaker 2: you encounter. The shot to the head and shoulder to

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Speaker 2: me speaks of someone probably trying to run away or

432
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: a skree.

433
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: And then the driver's window partially rolled down is also

434
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: perhaps not provable, but perhaps indicative of impersonation of a

435
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: law officer exactly to get compliance, open the car door, get.

436
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: Out of the car, sir, on a btk ruse thing.

437
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: And so authorities are well aware something's happening. Fast forward

438
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: less than a year this time, perhaps students of serial

439
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: murderers will note this could be indicative of an escalating pattern.

440
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: This is where we meet Cassandra Haley and Richard Cole.

441
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: On April tenth, nineteen eighty eight, authorities turned up a

442
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty two red Toyota celica on the York River

443
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 3: overlook in Yorktown, and it's identified as belonging to a

444
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 3: student by the name of Richard Keith Call and the

445
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: very same day he and another student named Cassandra Lee

446
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 3: Hayley are reported missing, twenty and eighteen years old, respectively.

447
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 3: The couple was last seen at a party late in

448
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 3: the night around one thirty am on April the tenth.

449
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 3: Returning back to the car, the keys were on the

450
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 3: driver's seat, glasses and a watch remained on the dash.

451
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 3: Pretty Much all of Cal's clothing is in the back

452
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: of his car, along with some of Haley's, and the

453
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: investigation would later prove that they were the very same

454
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: clothes the couple were wearing earlier to the party. So,

455
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: with the help of some police dogs, authorities tracked the

456
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: couple's sense to the shoreline of the York River, and

457
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 3: at first, perhaps with some validity, they assumed the couple

458
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: decided to go on a night swim and unfortunately drowned. Theoretically,

459
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 3: it could certainly happen, Ben, wouldn't you say, I mean,

460
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,239
Speaker 3: you know, people are inebriated, not maybe at their at

461
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: their sharpest, and conditions are perhaps more aggressive than they realize.

462
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 3: There's a maybe a perhaps a current of some sort,

463
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it's certainly a plausible scenario.

464
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, because this goes out into the bay, and in

465
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: comparison with the earlier murder from less than a year before,

466
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: if you look at the area, you'll see that You'll

467
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: see that there's like a study of a peninsula in

468
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: the middle, and there are rivers to either side of it.

469
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: This is on the other side of that middle peninsula

470
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: to the to the previous murder. So it's clearly in

471
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: the same area. And and you're absolutely right, nol it

472
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 1: is regrettably plausible possible for people to simply drown while inebriate.

473
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: It's it's something that we looked at in our previous

474
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 1: episode on the allegation of the Smiley Face killer. If

475
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: you remember that one, right, all those college students, mostly male,

476
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: who may have accidentally drowned or may have been murdered.

477
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: I'm looking at the map again, guys, just trying to

478
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: understand it reminds me of the Lake Bury US a

479
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: zodiac thing, trying to like figure out where they actually

480
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: might have looked at the water and thought we could

481
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: we should go swimming down there. When you put it

482
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: in the overlook doesn't really give you a place that is,

483
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: you know, titled the overlook, right, Yeah, it's.

484
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: Like overlook Point is probably the closest overlook point.

485
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: So, but that's actually going down to the York River

486
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: State Park, like in that area. Is that what we're saying,

487
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: or is it somewhere different from there?

488
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: It's yeah, you're you're you're on the money there.

489
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: Okay, So it does appear there's a place where you

490
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: could take your vehicle down and park it and be

491
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: right by the river. You know, in imagining you could

492
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: just go in there and swim. As you guys said,

493
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: like maybe you're little ineberated, you're feeling excited about being

494
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: with each other. That makes a whole bunch of sense.

495
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: And we do know other killers have targeted couples on beaches.

496
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, because of the isolation there, right. And the

497
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: thing is, like you were saying, no, they're able to

498
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: follow the scent with the help of canine units to

499
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: the shore of the river, at which case or in

500
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: at which point the scent is lost. At this point,

501
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: as we record February sixteenth, twenty twenty four, no trace

502
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: of these individuals has been found. They have not been

503
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: seen once ever in these subsequent decades. If they were

504
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: found alive this year, Call would be around fifty six

505
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: years old. Hayley would be around fifty four years old. Wow. Yeah,

506
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: that's a long time to be off the grid.

507
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: Let's go back to the potential boat thing, guys, Because

508
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: the James River, if you come out around that peninsula

509
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: as you were describing Ben, you've got the York River

510
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: right on the other side. If you knew what you

511
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: were doing, and you had access to a boat, and

512
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: you saw some people swimming at night and you had

513
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: bad intentions, if you could somehow get them on your boat,

514
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: you could take them anywhere along the coast there in

515
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: the Chesapeake Bay.

516
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: There's a lot of water. There is a lot of

517
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: water there, and it's very difficult to search that amount

518
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: of water. We know that due to the earlier proven murders.

519
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: Investigators at the time were clocking similarities. They were primed

520
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: to look for these, so they looked at the condition

521
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: of the vehicle like you described Mel. Because of this,

522
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: despite the bodies having never been recovered at this point,

523
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: these two victims, Cal and Haley are presumed often to

524
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: be victims of the Colonial Parkway killer or killers. Well, hey, guys,

525
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: what do you say.

526
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 3: We take a quick pause, hear a word from our sponsor,

527
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: and then come back with more details of this chilling case.

528
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: And we've returned, guys, before we jump into the next victims.

529
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: I had no idea that there was a place right

530
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: in this area called the Great Dismal Swamp.

531
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: Is that like a magic car.

532
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 3: Or a place in like the Phantom tollbooth or something.

533
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 3: It really does sound like a.

534
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, does everyone call it that? Or is that like

535
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: a matt thing.

536
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: It's called the Great Dismal Swamp National Wildlife Refuge in

537
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: the James River kind of flows feeds.

538
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: Into I thought you were talking about like in your

539
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: neck of the woods.

540
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's like just I'm just looking at

541
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: near Norfolk and Chesapeake can Anyway, Sorry, it's huge.

542
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: I love.

543
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm saying it wrong. Maybe it's the Great Dismal Swamp.

544
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: You know, or the d's mal.

545
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: I think it's dismal, dude, it's just on multiple levels.

546
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: It's probably dismal.

547
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: I just imagine early settlers walking through like, ah, this

548
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: place is dismal, Like, you know what.

549
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: I love those names. It's weird too when you look

550
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: at speaking of like our earlier episode on Tara Nullius.

551
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: It may be more for a ridiculous history thing we

552
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: explore together, but I love those names where it's clear

553
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: that whomever decided to name it at like the whatever

554
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: European it was, they were severely unimpressed, you know.

555
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.

556
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just pulled from their journal. It's like Mickey farted.

557
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: Just for fun. Dismal if you're looking at dictionary terms,

558
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: means dreary, gloomy, or disgracefully bad.

559
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: Two stone.

560
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: So this sorry, I guess I just needed a light.

561
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: We needed some levity, yes, thank you. Because also swamp

562
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: regions are swamp of wet land regions are very difficult

563
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: to access right. Often you need a knowledge of the

564
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: land and you need specific type of transit. Right you

565
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: can't get to a lot of these places in say

566
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: a gold nineteen seventy two Chevy Nova which was discovered

567
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: abandoned at a rest stop in I sixty four on

568
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: September fifth, nineteen eighty nine. Again, Interstate sixty four intersects

569
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: with the Colonial Parkway, and this vehicle that is discovered

570
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 1: already pings some red flags for the investigators in the area, because,

571
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 1: as you know, if you are a student of rest stops,

572
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: it's a good place to abandon vehicles. They get left

573
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: there all the time, and sometimes they're connected to with crime.

574
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: Sometimes just bad non criminal things happen. It doesn't necessarily

575
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: mean there was a murder when you see an abandoned car,

576
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: but it's a good place to leave.

577
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: One, exactly, and you know that potentially or in one

578
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: of the earlier scenarios, the suspect appears to have driven

579
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: a car, one of the victim's cars, right with that

580
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: white vehicle that was found the first murders. So immediately

581
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 2: I can imagine these investigators all the lights popping off.

582
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 2: But what was the big deal with this one left

583
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 2: at arrest stop that made it feel fishy?

584
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: Oh, the keys are in the ignition, the driver and

585
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: passenger side doors are unlocked. This is very similar to

586
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: what we were describing earlier. There's also dirt on the

587
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: undercarriage and grass stains, indicating this vehicle was recently driven

588
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: through the woods to this rest stop. A month passes

589
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: and then the corpses of the people in that car

590
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: are discovered. We're talking about Anna, Maria Phelps and Daniel Lawer,

591
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: who is the owner of the car.

592
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: That's la u R if you're looking it up. They

593
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: are found in the woods between Williamsburg and Richmond. And

594
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: as we well, it's a little again, it's a little

595
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: bit of a different area, isn't it. It's not right

596
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: off the Colonial Parkway.

597
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: No, No, it's on a logging road.

598
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 2: Okay.

599
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: They're discovered by hunters in the kind of thing where

600
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 1: like if you're familiar with hunting clubs stuff like that,

601
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: then you know in your neck of the woods, the

602
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: unpaved roads where you can drop your car and then

603
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: go off in the while to find the deer or

604
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: the black bear or whatever. And they're roughly one mile

605
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: from this rest stop. They're covered in an electric blanket

606
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: which is pulled from that Chevy Nova, and because more

607
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: than a month has passed, the bodies are significantly decomposed.

608
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: It's difficult to determine, Well, it's basically impossible to determine

609
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: the cause of death here. It's also very difficult to

610
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: determine whether there was sexual assault. But like you were

611
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: saying earlier, nol, the autopsy identifies things that appear to

612
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: indicate emotionally involved homicide, right, anger of some sort. There

613
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: are deep stab marks on Phelps's abdomen into the bone,

614
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: So whomever was doing this probably continued harming the body

615
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,959
Speaker 1: after the person died. That's the thing.

616
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like with the whole strangulation versus decapitation

617
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: and all of that, I mean, it really feels like

618
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: someone's got a fetishistic kind of approach to these situations.

619
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: Or guys, I would are you in this one? It

620
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: feels like there could be a crime of passion involved

621
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: because of the relationships, the personal relationships and the one

622
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: that may have potentially been violated in this scenario.

623
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So in that case, that's a good observation.

624
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: Met So in that case, what you need to know

625
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: about Annie Marie Phelps and Daniel Lower is that Anna

626
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: Marie Phelps is dating Daniel Lower's brother. He is the

627
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: boyfriend's brother. They are out there points unknown motives unknown

628
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: when these deaths occur.

629
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, and who knows what they were doing out there?

630
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: But if there's an electric blanket out in the woods,

631
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 2: they're on a drive in this area, who knows what

632
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 2: they were doing out there. But I don't know if

633
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: I was, if I was the investigator, I'm looking directly

634
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: at the boyfriend.

635
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would have to. We also don't know whether

636
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: a mile is a long way to walk. Yeah, the

637
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: girds and arrest stops. So we don't know if the

638
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: electric blanket was on them when they died, or whether

639
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: it was put over them as like an attempt to

640
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: hide the scene of the murder or hide bodies.

641
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 2: Either way, what are they doing out where they were?

642
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: Whatever happened? Right?

643
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: And what a terrible situation for the boyfriend.

644
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: Oh my god, because he's probably again if this is

645
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 2: a serial murderer, he has nothing to do with it,

646
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: but he's definitely going to be the top of the

647
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 2: list of people that investigators look at.

648
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: Three terrible realizations. My girlfriend's dead, my sibling's dead. I

649
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: don't know what they were doing in the woods. There

650
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: are additional victims suspected but yet not yet confirmed. Opinions

651
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: differ on whether these deaths should be grouped as part

652
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: of the larger umbrella the Colonial Parkway murders. It's things

653
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: like the deaths of Mike Margaret and Donald Hall. They

654
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: were found on August twenty first, nineteen eighty four, about

655
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 1: three hundred yards from a apartment complex in Henrico, Virginia,

656
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: and due to the similarities in their deaths the location,

657
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 1: the discovery of a vehicle abandoned passenger door open keys

658
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: in the ignition, some detectives maintained that this may be

659
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: the first actual incident of Colonial Parkway murders, but again

660
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: not officially attached. Same way with a guy swere we

661
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: I believe we may have mentioned on a previous episode,

662
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: Brian Pettinger and Lourie Powell. I swear I feel like

663
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: we mentioned them because because he is last seen at

664
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: a dance club December fourth, eighty seven, and when they

665
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: find his body, he had been bound. He had been

666
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: thrown into the James River, likely while still alive. Actually

667
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: they're convinced he was alive and he drowned in there,

668
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 1: only for his body to be recovered by fishermen two

669
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: months later. It occurs in the area the Colonial Parkway

670
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: around the same time the other proven homicides occur. Wow,

671
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:21,479
Speaker 1: it just goes on and it's a dangerous dark rabbit hole.

672
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: We're talking about people like Laurie Compton also goes missing.

673
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: We're talking about possible links to the Shenandoah National Park

674
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: murders with Julianne, Marie Williams, Lauris Salisbury, Wes why nots

675
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: And in each of those cases there's also troubling similarity.

676
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: And the question is are those similarities that we see

677
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: as observers or that investigators see, or are they actually

678
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: illustrative of the same killer. With this point, with tons

679
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: of unanswered questions, we have to get to the suspects

680
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: because imagine how heartbreaking it is to go for three

681
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: plus decades with no lead at all. Right, and it

682
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: seemed like everything was a dead end. Yet another series

683
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: of cold cases in the United States that will remain

684
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: unsolved until just last month, January of twenty twenty four,

685
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: there was a break in the case, which is astonishing.

686
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's pretty mind blowing. There is a potential

687
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: person as a primary suspect that may actually be linked

688
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: to at least a few of these homicides. Should we

689
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: just say his name. Yes, yes, this person is named

690
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior Wilmeer. He is considered the prime

691
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: suspect in three of the homicides David Nobling. I think

692
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 2: as we're referring to him as Robin Edwards, and then

693
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: who's the third one.

694
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: The third homicide is considered unrelated to what we call

695
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 1: the Colonial Parkway murders.

696
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 2: Okay, and that person is Teresa Lynn Spa Howell, who

697
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: was twenty nine years old.

698
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's Howell and Edwards. Wilmer will never be

699
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: prosecuted because Wilmer passed away in December twenty seventeen, sixty

700
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 1: three years old, cause of death hardening of the arteries.

701
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: He was well known. He was a local as a

702
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: clam and oyster fishermen. His friends called him Pokey. That

703
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 1: was his street name. Investigators, this is still really really strange, guys.

704
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: Investigators get his DNA after his death, and all they'll

705
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: say about it publicly is they went through legal channels.

706
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: He was not a convicted felon, so as DNA his

707
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: info was not in any law enforcement database. He also

708
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: wasn't military.

709
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: That makes sense why they had one hundred fingerprints, but

710
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 2: they couldn't I d anybody because there was no His

711
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: prints were never in any of the databases. Oh wow,

712
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: they were looking for a ghost. And yeah, I wonder

713
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: how long they were looking at him though as a potential.

714
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: We still don't know. Virginia State Police have the full

715
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: press conference online. Do watch it if you can. We'll

716
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: play a clip at the end here. But we got

717
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: this courtesy of WTVR CBS six out of Virginia. And

718
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: what they tell us is, like reporters have asked, we

719
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: don't know exactly when they started looking at this guy

720
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: for it. In every announcement from the authorities, the investigators

721
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: also take pains to say they are convinced this guy

722
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: was a murderer. He would be charged for these homicides

723
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: were he alive. He knew. This is where it gets

724
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: kind of true Detective Season one. He was intimately familiar

725
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: with the land. He knew the woods, he knew the waters.

726
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: He had he had a boat that didnny wade. He

727
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: owned a tree cutting business called a Burst of Creativity

728
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: better Tree Services.

729
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: Interesting, he was mobile.

730
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: He was informed he had something he had something like

731
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: primitive obsect.

732
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure, I'm thinking about timing now, because

733
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: if these are his primary things, I don't know when

734
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 2: you go fishing for those, for that particular wildlife, right,

735
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 2: what times that you have to be out there, But

736
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: I'm assuming that's early mornings often and sometimes late at

737
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: night after it gets dark. To get those oysters and clams.

738
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 2: It's probably early morning, late night, which means you would who,

739
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: no matter who's in your life personally, right, you're going

740
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 2: to be out later than normal, and that time might vary,

741
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 2: and you might be up super early and that time

742
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 2: might vary. Sorry, just thinking things.

743
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's incredibly important, you know. Again, are saying, Look,

744
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: there's no conclusive forensic evidence linking other murders to these

745
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: three that we're convinced this guy committed. And so the

746
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: three other active cases of the Colonial Parkway's murders, they're

747
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: unresolved today. People are still searching for answers. Could these

748
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: all be the actions of Wilmer and they just haven't

749
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: been conclusively tied to that monster. Could there be other

750
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: active killers? Someone impersonating law enforcement, something that could explain

751
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: the seemingly the seeming compliance on the part of the victims.

752
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: Wallets out stuff on the dash present, ID get out

753
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: of the car, etc.

754
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: That's what I was gonna say. This is one of

755
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: the David noveling. Robin Edwards case is one of the

756
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 2: ones where the car was left like that, and there

757
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 2: are several other that have that very similar aspect to them.

758
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: It does make you wonder if he was involved with

759
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: all of those Niche okay.

760
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: And he can't be questioned just beyond the reach of

761
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: mortal law. But that doesn't mean the investigations are done.

762
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 1: There is more to do. A break in a case

763
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: like this can be a watershed moment for even more investigations, right,

764
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: So maybe maybe we can go out this way. Going

765
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: to the experts from that press conference we mentioned, there's

766
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: a pretty impactful clip from Brian Dugan coming out of

767
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: the Norfolk office in the FBI. He's a special agent.

768
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 1: So before we before we play this clip again once more,

769
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: shout out WTVR CBS six, who made the clip available

770
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,280
Speaker 1: in its entirety. Here is special Agent Brian Dugan.

771
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 4: Well, these tragedies occurred decades ago. I recognize how much

772
00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 4: pain followed them throughout those years without any answers. There

773
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 4: still may be more families out there hoping to close

774
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 4: their chapters as well. That's why we're asking the public

775
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 4: to take a good look at the suspects photos. If

776
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 4: you had any encounters with him or his vehicle or watercraft,

777
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 4: hunted with him, farmed oysters or clams docked next Touman Marinas,

778
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 4: spent time with him on a personal basis or at work,

779
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 4: or even romantically to some point, we want to hear

780
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 4: from you. We're also interested in hearing from the public

781
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 4: about areas where Wilmer had worked in both as a

782
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 4: fisherman and tree cutter, Locations where he may have been

783
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 4: known to hunt, or bars, clubs or lounges he frequented.

784
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 4: A piece of information, no matter how small, could be

785
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 4: useful to investigators to submit a report. We're encouraging the

786
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 4: public to call the FBI's tip line one eight hundred,

787
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 4: call FBI or mid a tip online at tips dot

788
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 4: FBI dot gov. Alternatively, you can also contact the State

789
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 4: Police via email at Questions at vsp dot Virginia dot gov.

790
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: And we're gonna pause here because Dugan goes on to

791
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: what we believe is perhaps the most impactful part of

792
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: this press conference, where he is directly call putting out

793
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: what we call a call to action. People knew this guy,

794
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,280
Speaker 1: he was in a hunting club, he did have phishing buddies.

795
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: Could they come forward?

796
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would they have any information? Right? How secretive

797
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: was he about his actions? If he was in fact

798
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: taking these actions? And I think this is something what

799
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: you're about to hear, this is something that could be

800
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 2: applied to any murder case, any really any criminal activity case.

801
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 2: This is it's just a really good point, and it's

802
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: said really well.

803
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 4: We recognize relationships and loyalties change over time, as do

804
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 4: people and their perspectives. There are occasions where people who

805
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 4: may have had knowledge of the incident did not feel

806
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 4: comfortable coming forward with the information at the time. This

807
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 4: may have been due to close relationships with persons involved,

808
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 4: or out of concern of their own safety, reputation, or

809
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 4: standing amongst friends. Even though mister Wilmer is deceased, we

810
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 4: want to know, We want you to know, is not

811
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 4: too late to come forward.

812
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this happens with any sort of crime. And

813
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: you know, it's very easy, unfortunately devilishly easy, to hear

814
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: something like this, not be directly involved and think, well,

815
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: of course I would do the right thing I would

816
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: say if I saw something screwy. But we have to

817
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: realize there is tremendous social pressure, often not to rock

818
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: the vote. Uh. And with that in mind, these cases

819
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: remain unsolved. Thank you again to Lori Dollar. Our thoughts

820
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: are with the families and survivors of these murders, and

821
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: we hope that there will be just as found the

822
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: investigations continue. We would like to hear from you. We

823
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: try to be easy to find online.

824
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 2: We do.

825
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 3: You can find us at the handlic Conspiracy Stuff on Facebook,

826
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 3: on YouTube, and on x FKA Twitter. You can find

827
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,439
Speaker 3: us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff Show. However, on Instagram

828
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 3: and tick doc.

829
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: We do have a phone number. It's a voicemail system

830
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 2: call one eight three three std WYTK. Let us know

831
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 2: about other cases like this, they just we haven't been

832
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 2: put onto yet. Please please please do that. Give yourself

833
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: a cool nickname. Let us know if we can use

834
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 2: your name and message on the air. If you've got

835
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 2: more to say than can fit in that three minute message,

836
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 2: why not instead send us a good old fashioned email.

837
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: We are the folks who read every email we get

838
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot.

839
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: Com stuff They Don't Want You To Know is a

840
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

841
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

842
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 2: favorite shows.