1 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: For years, Walter Isaacson had immersed himself in the world 2 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: of Jennifer DOWDNA and the other Crisper pioneers. In hours 3 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: of conversations. He'd work to capture the stories behind the invention. 4 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: But at a certain point he decided he needed to 5 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: approach Crisper from a different angle to understand it in 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: a more pans on way. So he traveled to Downa's 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: lab on the tree lined campus of UC Berkeley, sat 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: down on a lab bench alongside a couple of grad students, 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: and got to work editing genes from a human kidney cell. 10 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 2: You're sitting on a bench in front of a lab 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: table usually has a big hood on top so that it, 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 2: you know, exhausts the air and there's not a lot 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: of fumes. And you have some test tubes in a 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: little rack, just like he used to have in chemistry 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 2: class in eighth grade, and you pipe pets, and those 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: pipe pets allow you to put tiny drops of things 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 2: into the test tube. In the case of editing with Crisper, 18 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: there would be some preprogrammed RNA targeted thing with an enzyme, 19 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: meaning a protein that can cut or do other things. 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: A spark reactions attached to it. Both Gavin Knott and 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: Jennifer Hamilton, who had graduate students in the lab, hovered 22 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 2: over me with my pipets and my glasses and goggles 23 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 2: and latex gloves on and showed me how to mix 24 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: the different ingredients we had, put it into a test tube, 25 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: and then look and see whether I had edited in 26 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: a gene that would make it glow green, sort of 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: a phosphorescent gene. And after a while you get to 28 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: put it into a centrifuge, or you get to put 29 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: it under microscopes, and you'll get to see were your 30 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: cuts actually made. They said, here it is, and there, 31 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: indeed was the gene spliced in. 32 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: Isaacson tells me that one of the things that struck 33 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: him most during the process was discovering how with crisper 34 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: gene editing was relatively easy to do with a little help. 35 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: I was surprised that even I could do it. I know, 36 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: I had a couple of graduate students hovering around and helping, 37 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: and I realized that this is going to be a 38 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: technology that's not only easy to use, but it's easy 39 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 2: to reprogram. I didn't actually program the guide RNA. Somebody 40 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: else had done it for me. But if I decided 41 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: I wanted to make a cut in the parts of 42 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: DNA that show my eye color, or the parts of 43 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: the DNA that grow hair, whatever it may be, I 44 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: realized that it wouldn't be all that hard to program 45 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: the molecule. 46 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: Isaacson's realization mirrors one that Dowdna had herself, as the 47 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: technology behind cris Burg continued to spread. 48 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: After Jennifer Dowdner and Emmanuel Shoppenjay publish their paper, Jennifer 49 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: had a dream or a nightmare, and it was that 50 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: somebody wanted to meet with her about this new technology. 51 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: And she opens the door to the room. The person 52 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: looks up and it's Adolph Hitler, sort of in a 53 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: pig's head, and she's taken aback. And she realizes, of 54 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: course that eugenics, I mean, this is what the Nazis 55 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: were trying to do to edit the human race. That 56 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 2: in the wrong hands, this tool could just be not 57 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: just powerful, but evil. And she realized at that point 58 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: that she would have to want to gather scientists from 59 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: around the world because it had to be international to say, 60 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: let's think through the implications of this. There is the 61 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: Prometheus issue, which is Prometheus snatches the technology from the gods, 62 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: fire from the liver of the gods, and it becomes problematic, 63 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: it's harmful. That, of course, is written large with the 64 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 2: atom bomb project. And if you've seen the movie Oppenheimer, 65 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: you know he's called the American Prometheus. And so you 66 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: have to wrestle with the moral implications of the technology 67 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: you've created. 68 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: From the atom bomb to gene editing, scientists have long 69 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: had to grapple with the risks that their own inventions 70 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: present for society. They've been forced to search their consciences 71 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: and at times to galvanize their colleagues and efforts to 72 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: contain those risks. As Isaacson writes, for decades, widespread human 73 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: genome editing had lived in the realm of science fiction. 74 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: Now with Chrisper, it's arriving, and the question is are 75 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: we ready? I'm Evan Ratliffe and this is on Crisper, 76 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: the Story of Jennifer Downa. This is episode four Franken Monsters. 77 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: DWNA wasn't alone in thinking about the ethical repercussions of 78 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: gene editing. Isaacson notes that the field of biotechnology has 79 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: always been right with these questions. 80 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: One of the first groups to wrestle with the biotechnology 81 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: ethical issues was a group that had Paul Berg and 82 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: Herbert Boyer and the people in the nineteen seventies who 83 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 2: had done the original genetic engineering of recombinant DNA in 84 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: producing new types of organisms by fusing things together and 85 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: had patented them. And this was causing a problem that 86 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: maybe commercial labs are going to create Franken monster. And 87 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: they go to a conference center in California known as Asilomar, 88 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: and they decide to discuss the ethics of it and 89 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 2: the rules of the road. And the second year was 90 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: a big conference. It's called a Silomar too, and they 91 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: made a series of guidelines to allow the technology to proceed. 92 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 2: They called it a prudent path forward was their watchword. 93 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: And they worry mainly about the safety, like how do 94 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: you keep these things from escaping the lab. They didn't 95 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 2: worry enough about the moral implications of genetic engineering. And 96 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: this is not yet human gene editing like Christopher does, 97 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 2: but it's a type of genetic engineering where you can 98 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: create new microorganisms that might be good at fighting diseases, 99 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: and they also might be pathogens that escape and are 100 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: really bad. 101 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: So even if the question and the technology surrounding gene 102 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: editing had changed down to return to the early organizational 103 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: efforts of her colleagues as a framework. 104 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: When Jennifer decides to start this process of dealing with 105 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: the ethical implications of Chrisper gene editing, she goes back 106 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: to the nineteen seventies conferences of a Sillomar where Paul Berg, 107 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: Herbert Boyer, Jim Watson, and David Baltimore had all gathered 108 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: together do the rules of the road and create this 109 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: prudent path forward for genetic engineering. And she even gets 110 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: some of the original players. She gets David Baltimore, she 111 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: gets Paul Berg to be sort of honorary chairs of 112 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: this process she starts, and she goes to not a 113 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: Sillomar but another resort in California, and they gather people 114 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: for a series of meetings that discuss not only the 115 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: safety issues but the moral issues. I should we be 116 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: making gene edits and especially inheritable gene edits so that 117 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 2: we're not only fixing sickle cell anemia and a single patient, 118 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: but we might want to make permanent genetic edits that 119 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: are inheritable so that their children and nobody in their 120 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: family will ever have any of their descendants, we'll ever 121 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: have sickle cell again. And that's a line across It's 122 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: called the germ line, but it's like a red line, 123 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: which is all right, we're not just doing it in 124 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: one patient and if it doesn't work, well, that's bad 125 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 2: for the patient, but the species survives. What if we're 126 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 2: now doing it in something that will change the human species? 127 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: And what was their general conclusion coming out of these meetings? 128 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: One of them was, don't make inheritable gene edits. We're 129 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: just not ready for that. We don't know how to 130 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: do it, but we also don't know the moral implications. 131 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: That gets blown away when one of these men, they're 132 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: about to go to Hong Kong to have another session 133 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: because they're doing internationally, and suddenly word comes forth that 134 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: a little known Chinese scientist, Ju juang Qi, had made 135 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: inheritable gene edits to twin girls in China by editing 136 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: them when they were embryos, so all of their cells 137 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: are edited and all of their descendant cells will be 138 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 2: edited to make it so they didn't have a receptor 139 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: for the virus HIV, which sounds like a good thing 140 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: to do, but it crossed that line, and so that 141 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: shakes everybody up. 142 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: The scientist Jo Jianqui had actually personally reached out to 143 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: Daudna to tell her about his feet. Isaacson says that 144 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: gene editing researchers didn't receive the news the way jan 145 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: Qui expected. 146 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: He sends her an email and the subject is baby's 147 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: born and she looks at it and she's a gas. 148 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: She realizes, oh my god, this guy is edited embryos 149 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: and made these genetically altered, inheritable changes in babies. And 150 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: she calls David Baltimore and they're supposed to be meeting 151 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: in Hong Kong for one of these conferences, and Jennifer says, 152 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: I'm catching an earlier plane. Meet me in Hong Kong 153 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 2: because Han Shuang key was going to be there. He 154 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: was supposed to just talk about his ears on some panel, 155 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: and he wasn't planning to talk about doing an inheritable 156 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: gene edits. In fact, he didn't want to. He was 157 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: trying to keep it secret. And they decide they have 158 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 2: to let him present what he has done, and it's 159 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: all very awkward in this hotel in Hong Kong, where 160 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 2: he'd keep sending messages to Jennifer's room saying, I've got 161 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: to talk to you, you know, I've got to save 162 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 2: my reputation, and she's saying, you have to do this 163 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: presentation and you have to answer questions. But then the 164 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: questions were sort of technical, not very interesting questions, and 165 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: it was kind of messy. They never confronted the deep issues, 166 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: and then Jojuan Ki kind of walks off stage and 167 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: leaves and goes back to China. He thought he was 168 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: going to be world famous, like the person who cloned 169 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: Dolly the Sheep, or you know, one of those big breakthroughs. 170 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: And he had hired an American public relation specialist who 171 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: had set up sort of embargoed private interviews with the 172 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: Associated Press that would be released when he did his 173 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 2: scientific paper and videos. He made five videos that were 174 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: held until they were going to all be released on 175 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 2: the same day, and then the paper comes out and 176 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, people realize, well, he's not going 177 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: to be celebrated. This was actually a crossing of an 178 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 2: ethical line. 179 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: Still Doubna and some of our colleagues believed that what 180 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: happened with Hojenqui shouldn't dictate the rules of the field, 181 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: but more so serve as a warning and tells me 182 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: that crisper researchers were trying to walk a delicate line 183 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: between enforcing appropriate rules and potentially stunting their own research. 184 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: They wanted to make sure that people didn't just run 185 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 2: away with this saying, but they also wanted to make 186 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: sure that governments, regulators, and people didn't try to stop 187 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: research on it. And so Jennifer, unlike Eric Lander and 188 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 2: some others, fights the notion of having a moratorium or 189 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: a ban, and we ended up not having a moratorium 190 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: on crisper gene editing, and we're still trying to find 191 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: this prudent path forward. So they think that maybe they 192 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 2: can put the genie back in the bottle or keep 193 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: Pandora's box closed, And so far there hasn't been a 194 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 2: runaway efforts to do inheritable gene edits. And the Chinese 195 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: even cracked down on this scientist, put him under house arrests, 196 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: took his license away. But the moment, the rules of 197 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: the road are being respected. 198 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: And you describe a little bit how doubt does thinking 199 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: did evolve over time when it came to, you know, 200 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily favoring a moratorium, but like feeling stronger at 201 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: one point about putting harder lines. And what changed over 202 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: the course of a few years for her. 203 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 2: She originally wanted a whole lot of restrictions on the 204 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 2: use of Crisper and said it was kind of dangerous 205 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 2: to go too fast. But it conferences and in other 206 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 2: places I'd see people come up to her, they pull 207 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: out a photograph say, this is my daughter and she 208 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: has this genetic thing. She's going to die in a 209 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: year a year and a half. It's degenerative. Can you 210 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: save her life please? And Jennifer would have to say, 211 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: we're going to try to do that someday with crisper, 212 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: but no, it's not going to be ready in six 213 00:13:54,640 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: months a year. And also she began to realize all 214 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 2: the suffering that could be stopped with crisper, so she 215 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 2: began to be a little bit more open about the 216 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: potential and wanting to make sure that too many restrictions 217 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: were not put on it. Her ideas changed. Also. Another 218 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: thing causing to evolve was, of course, the coronavirus and 219 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: COVID were suddenly were confronted with a viral attack. 220 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: Among many things, COVID brought to the forefront the importance 221 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: of RNA technology. Isaacson tells me that from the beginning 222 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: of the pandemic, DOWDNA and her colleagues understood that they 223 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: needed to get to work creating testing materials and eventually 224 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: a vaccine. 225 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: Jennifer Dowd, who had been working on Crisper, all of 226 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: a sudden realizes when COVID hits, how nature had created 227 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: in this way of fighting viruses, and how relevant suddenly 228 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: to our own lives, because we have to fight a 229 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: virus just like bacteria did. And in some ways nature 230 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: is amazing that way that something that starts as a 231 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: pure curiosity of what weird bacteria from salt ponds do 232 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 2: become so central to our own lives when we get 233 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: attacked by viruses. It's really just a week or so 234 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: into the first news of the pandemic and they start 235 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: forming teams with or organizing it. Like one team that's 236 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: going to build a testing system, another team that's going 237 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: to build the next generation of testing using Crisper to 238 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: test for the viruses. Another team that's going to try 239 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: to do a Crisper based vaccine for the virus. And 240 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: so these teams start to work, and some of it 241 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: is very mundane, like just testing everybody in the Bay 242 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: Area she who has COVID because they didn't have good 243 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: COVID test back then. Teams were doing things that are 244 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: still ongoing, like using Crisper for a vaccine that will 245 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: guard against any form of coronavirus. 246 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: And even as they got together and informed these teams 247 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: some of what they were doing, including the testing, it 248 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: sort of outpaced the government's ability to process it. Like 249 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: they had tests ready, but they needed to jump through 250 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: all these hoops to get the tests approved because no 251 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: one had anticipated that this would even be possible. 252 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 2: We have to remember how meshy the original response to 253 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 2: COVID was. 254 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: People will have heard, you know, the COVID vaccines, the 255 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: modernic vaccine, the Pfizer vaccine are RNA related. Can you 256 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: explain to what extent Crisper itself played a role in 257 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: the vaccines that we know now versus treatments that may 258 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: come down the line. 259 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: The new vaccines that most of us had against COVID, 260 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 2: known as mRNA vaccines meaning Messenger RNA. That is not 261 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 2: exactly the same as CRISPER, but it still uses the 262 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: notion that RNA is this miracle molecule and it can 263 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 2: be programmed to do things. So that's how RNA technology 264 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: more than just Crisper technology, but RNA as a messenger, 265 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: as a molecule that could tell the cell to do 266 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 2: something and be programmed by us to tell the cell 267 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 2: to do something we wanted to do. That's in the 268 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: realm of the world of RNA and CRISPER, but it's 269 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: a particular type of thing called messenger RNA. 270 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: Throughout this race to understand how the COVID nineteen virus 271 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: worked and how RNA and CRISPER could work together to 272 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: stop it, Isaacson tells me old rivalries into the forefront, 273 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: but this time the goal was one that transcended personal recognition. 274 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 2: You have Jennifer's lab racing to do it, Fung Jang's 275 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,239 Speaker 2: lab racing to do it. And this time, even though 276 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: they're sort of competing, they know the stakes for society 277 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: are huge, and they're working together more and not trying 278 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 2: to beat each other to patents is the way science 279 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: should work. 280 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: There couldn't have been a more a stronger moment to 281 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: illustrate the value of the basic research than what happened 282 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: right as they are developing these these technologies. 283 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm writing this book and thinking I'm 284 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: a bit of an arcane field, which is what's RNA doing? 285 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: And I was even wondering, how does the book come 286 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: to some you know, relevant conclusions so people don't think 287 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 2: they're just reading the book about, you know, a gene 288 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: editing tool. And it was interesting because COVID is just 289 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 2: so at the core of what the book is about, 290 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: because it's about organisms that have to fight off viruses 291 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 2: and as I said, bacteria have been doing this for 292 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: billions of years. It's the biggest war ever happened on 293 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: this planet. And the fact that out of pure curiosity 294 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 2: we could learn something about how bacteria fight viruses and 295 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: apply it to ourselves just at the moment when we're 296 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 2: getting a viral pandemic with a spike protein, we can 297 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: even mimic using messenger RNA. I think that helped show 298 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 2: how relevant and exciting but also important the science can be. 299 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: Coming up after the break, we dive into a middle 300 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: of the night call to DAWDNA one that we confirmed 301 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: she had embarked on the right research path all along. 302 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,719 Speaker 1: In the middle of all this, in October of twenty twenty, 303 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: Jennifer Dowdner gets a call in the middle of the night. 304 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's in a conference, the first in person conference 305 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: she's been to. I think it's down in Palo Alto, 306 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: you know, an hour down from Berkeley. And in the 307 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: middle of the night, the phone rings and she doesn't answer. 308 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: It's on vibrate, but finally she answers, and it's a 309 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 2: reporter at four am SEC. What's your reaction to the 310 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: Nobel Prize? She says, who won the Nobel Prize. The 311 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 2: reporter says, you did, and with Emmanuel looks at her 312 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: phone and she sees a lot of miscalls from Stockholm, Sweden, 313 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 2: and she says, oh, okay, I'll call you back. I 314 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 2: stayed up that night even if Jennifer dowdan didn't. I 315 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: was here in New Orleans, and I set my alarm 316 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 2: for whatever it is, three am, four am for when 317 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: it was going to be announced in Stockholm, and they 318 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: start announcing it and they said, this year's prize goes 319 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: for the tool that will help us with the secrets 320 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: of life and edit our genes. And I go, yes, 321 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: it's crisper. 322 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,239 Speaker 1: And all of these labs at this point have to 323 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,719 Speaker 1: some extent turned their attention or part of their attention 324 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: towards commercializing these technology, towards finding through companies, finding the 325 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: treatments that will actually bring them into human use, and 326 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: that creates all these other dilemmas, ethical dilemmas that arise 327 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: out of it. And I want to talk a little 328 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: bit about that. Can you run us through some of 329 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 1: your thought experiments on the implications of crisper being used 330 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: in a variety of different ways. 331 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: I think the big ethical issues are when is it 332 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: okay to edit our genes? And in the book, I 333 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: start with a whole lot of cases, and so we 334 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: got to go slowly, step by step, because slopes are 335 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: less slippery that way, and this could be a slippery slope. 336 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: And so you can look at things that are debilitating 337 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 2: conditions like sickle cell, and it's a simple edit, and 338 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 2: you can do it in effect only the individual involved, 339 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: not reproductive cells. And that's a no brainer to me. 340 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: There is a person in the book, David Sanchez, who's 341 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: a sweet, wonderful kid, was seventeen when we were doing 342 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: the book, and he loves playing basketball except for when 343 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 2: he doubles over in pain on the floor because he 344 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: has sickle cell. And so he becomes part of one 345 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: of the experiments to treat sickle cell, and they tell him, 346 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: with crisper, we can cure this, and we can even 347 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: with crisper if we do it in reproductive cells or embryos, 348 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: make it so that your children will never have sickle cell, 349 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 2: and all of your descendants will never have sickle cell. 350 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: And David says, that's great, and then he pauses this 351 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: in a documentary he was being interviewed for and says, 352 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 2: but maybe I should let my kid decide that. Maybe 353 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 2: that should be their choice. And I said to him, 354 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 2: wait a minute. You know you doubled over in pain. 355 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: Do you want that to happen to you kid? He said, well, 356 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: I learned a lot from sickle cell. I learned perseverance, 357 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 2: I learned how to get up off the floor. And 358 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: so maybe we shouldn't just edit it out of the 359 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: human species, but use it as treatments at times. And 360 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: I thought, well, that's amazing for a seventeen year old 361 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 2: have been this morally thoughtful about it. And I asked 362 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 2: him again later and he said, now that I think 363 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: about it, I probably want my kids to be edited 364 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 2: so that they'll never have sickle cell. I said, what 365 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 2: about perseverance? He said, I want to teach him perseverance, 366 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: but I don't want him to feel the pain that 367 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: I felt when I crumple up up playing basketball. So 368 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: these are complicated ethical things. Then you get to the 369 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 2: next step of thinking on this slope we're going down, 370 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: and you say, well, you know, if we can edit 371 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 2: for sickle cell so that the blood cells are not 372 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: crumpled and does carry less oxygen, and we can fix it. 373 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 2: What if we get edited so they carry a little 374 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: bit of extra oxygen, like fifty percent more oxygen each cell. 375 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 2: I could edit my kids and all of my descendants 376 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: to be amazing Olympic athletes. Is that ethically worse than 377 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: curing sickle cell? I would say yes, that's a difference 378 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: between making a cure for a bad disorder or making 379 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: an enhancement to the human species. I asked George Church. 380 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 2: He says, what do you mean, what's wrong with enhancing 381 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 2: the human species? What if we can edit IQ and 382 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 2: make it better? All of us want our kids. Maybe 383 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: we can make our kids taller. Tell me what's wrong 384 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: with trying to enhance your kids and make them more powerful? 385 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: So I asked Jennifer, we all have to think about it. 386 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: One thing that's wrong with it is if these genetic 387 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 2: treatments will be costly, and they will be, you could 388 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 2: have it so the rich can buy better genes for 389 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: their kids than poor people. You don't want to have 390 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: two species, the genetically you know, that's the brave New 391 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 2: World issue, the genetically enhanced part of the species and 392 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: the genetically inferior part of the species. Secondly, if you 393 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 2: let each individual decide, they can go into a clinic 394 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: and you give them as if it's the genetic supermarket. 395 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: Here's the list. What do you want? Blond hair, blue eyes? 396 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 2: Do you want brown hair? And you can secretly, with 397 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: no knowing, you can check off what do you want? 398 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: What would people check off? At the end of the book, 399 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 2: I talked about sitting on the balcony here in New 400 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: Orleans and Royal Street in the French Quarter, and all 401 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: sorts of things are happening. There's a funeral for Leah Chase, 402 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 2: a great creole of colored cook, and there's a naked 403 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 2: bicycle race for safety traffic safety. There's a gay pride parades, 404 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: and you look at the diversity to people tall and 405 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: short and straight and gay and trans, and black and white, 406 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 2: and people from Gallia Day University sign language, and you think, 407 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,239 Speaker 2: what if we could edit out all deafness, What if 408 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 2: we could edit out so every parent could choose sexual orientation, 409 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 2: skin color, would we hurt the beautiful diversity of our species? 410 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 2: These are the moral issues that Jennifer and then at 411 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 2: other places I was trying to wrestle. 412 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: With, and it raises to return to sort of you know, 413 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: the big questions. One of them you've touched on here, 414 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: which is you write about how with something like deafness 415 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: or autism, if that could be you know, quote unquote treated. 416 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: It also raises a question like what is a disorder? 417 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: What is a disability? One person's disability is not necessarily 418 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: another person's disability in this world? And how do we 419 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: decide which things even if you forget about enhancements, what 420 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: are things that we're even able to treat right? 421 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: And if we in society as a whole make decisions, 422 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 2: we'd probably say, let's not edit out being gay, Let's 423 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: not edit out even you know, being on the autism spectrum. 424 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: But if you leave it to each individual parent, they 425 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 2: might say, I don't want my kid to ever suffer 426 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: from depression. I don't want them to be even in 427 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 2: a small part of the autism spectrum or aspergers or 428 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: whatever they want to call it. And maybe you're editing 429 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: out the hemming ways. You're editing out van Go, You're 430 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: editing out people who had either psychological or personal or whatever, 431 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: or editing out Helen Keller, you know from being deaf? 432 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: Was the world better off without van Go and Helen Keller? No, 433 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: If you're a mother and father and say your kid 434 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 2: will be born deaf, but we can easily change that, 435 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 2: would you say, yeah, please change it. I'll let you think. 436 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: Would you do it? And you know in the book 437 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 2: there's somebody there who's a deaf couple and they're about 438 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,959 Speaker 2: to have a child. They want to make sure their 439 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: child is deaf because they want to keep that' subculture alive. 440 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: How much of this should be individual choice or how 441 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: much should be society as a whole saying you're not 442 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: allowed to do some of these things. 443 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: The ethical considerations around Crisper cast nine will likely only 444 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: grow as the technolog He continues to advance the news 445 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: around Baby kJ renewed mainstream interests in the field and 446 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: what it can accomplish, but Isaacson tells me there's still 447 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: a long way to go. 448 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: We're not quite as far along as I thought we 449 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: might be. It's been ten years, but we have cured 450 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: sickle cell in patients Victoria Gray, she's pictured in the book, 451 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: part of the experiment. But now they're the private companies 452 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 2: Crisper Therapeutics of Emmanuel Sharp and Jay, who have a 453 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: cure for sickle cell. And there are four or five 454 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 2: other type syndrums that we can now fix. The big 455 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: one about to happen in clinical trials is cancer treatments, 456 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 2: where you can use Crisper to change some of the 457 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 2: immune system so that you're cancer fighting treatments or the 458 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: cancer cells can be defeated. That's a shorthand of it. 459 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,959 Speaker 2: But yet we're about to have we have very personalized 460 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: cancer treatments targeted to your particular tumor, and Crisper can 461 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: make it so that that type of treatment can work 462 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: more easily. 463 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: It did strike me that you end the book on 464 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: really a note of optimism about both Crisper but also 465 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: the sort of like understanding and connection to science that 466 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: people were having because of the mRNA vaccines at that 467 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: moment in COVID, and it feels like that has all 468 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: gone a little bit south or a lot south since 469 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: that moment. So I'm wondering how you feel, first of all, 470 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: about the way people view science today and how that 471 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: connects up with how people view what crisper can do. 472 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: One of the great tragedies of our time has been 473 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 2: over the past few years, a backlash against science, just 474 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 2: part of the larger backlash against expertise and establishment. So, 475 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: you know, a book, like a book on Jennifer Dowd 476 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 2: can explain what is it a messenger RNA does and 477 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: when people say the mRNA vaccine is going to destroy 478 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: my DNA and change me forever, No, no, no, understand it. 479 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: It doesn't even go into the nucleus of yourself. It's 480 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: just an RNA. It's on the outside of your you know, 481 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: the outer part of your cell making protein, so it 482 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 2: doesn't change your genetic code. Now that may not, you know, 483 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 2: be an easy cell, but it's a beautiful thing to 484 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: understand the science, And I think it's a shame that 485 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: after COVID and the great advances that we've had using 486 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 2: RNA to make a vaccine within a year, pretty much 487 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: knocking back the dangers of COVID and using these treatments 488 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: to cure sickle cell. I think it's important for people 489 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 2: to marvel at and understand how these work so that 490 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: people can be inspired, like Jennifer was when she read 491 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: The Double Helix, to become scientist, or even if you're 492 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: not going to become a science be odd and inspired 493 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: by what science can do and the beauty of understanding 494 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: it so that you can make your own informed judgments 495 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: about what treatments you may want. 496 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: It feels like that backlash towards science, towards expertise is 497 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: either enabling or fueling this current attack on basic science, 498 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: the funding for basic science to begin with. And you 499 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time in the book describing the 500 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: way these very basic questions of curiosity lead down the 501 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: road to changes in our lives, positive changes in our lives. 502 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: How are you feeling in this moment when a lot 503 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: of basic science feels like it's under threat. 504 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 2: For eighty years, since the end of World War Two, 505 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 2: we've had a system that has made the United States 506 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: the powerhouse in innovation. It was a system set up 507 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: by Beneva Bush, who is somebody who ran science for 508 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: the government during the war, including the Adam Baum project, 509 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 2: but also had been a provost at MIT and started 510 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: a company rightly, and he said, we're going to have 511 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 2: a system where government funds basic science research and does 512 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: it at university labs, and then allows it when it's 513 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 2: successful and turns into a tool we can use to 514 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 2: be commercialized by companies. If we stop funding that basic research, 515 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 2: that means like we're destroying the seeds that will become 516 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 2: innovations in the future. And China, which is doing huge 517 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: amounts of basic reat search, whether it's on life sciences 518 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: or gene editing or AI, will totally surpass us, and 519 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 2: so will other places. So there's nothing worse you could 520 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 2: do for the future of America. 521 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: You've written about this sort of your view of the revolutions, 522 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: the revolution of atoms, followed by the revolution of bits 523 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: and the digital era, and now comes the revolution in biology. 524 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: Do you feel like your perspective on that has changed 525 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: at all, that they could be slowed down or stopped. 526 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 2: I think the revolution in the life sciences will define 527 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: the first half of our century, the next twenty five 528 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 2: years or so, I think it will be combined with 529 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 2: the revolution in artificial intelligence. In fact, if you look 530 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 2: at the Nobel Prizes, if you look at Demis Hosipus 531 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 2: who just won it, it was for applying AI to 532 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: how proteins fold and how the folding of proteins determines 533 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 2: what they can do. Because James Watson taught us in 534 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 2: a double helix, and as Jennifer taught us about RNA, 535 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 2: the structure of a molecule helps make it a key 536 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 2: that can unlock certain things. So as we have AI 537 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 2: do protein folding, and as we have AI and machine 538 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 2: learning go through databases of everybody's genetic code and what 539 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 2: type of things work and don't work, this whole revolution 540 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 2: of life sciences combined with AI technology has unbelievable potential. 541 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: In the next episode of On Crisper, we listen to 542 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: a conversation between Isaacson and Jennifer Downer at the New 543 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: Orleans Book Festival at Tulane University. You won't want to 544 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: miss it on Crisper. The Story of Jennifer Downa is 545 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: a production of Kaleidoscope, and iHeart this show is based 546 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 1: on the writing and reporting of war Walter Isaacson. It's 547 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: hosted by me Evan Ratliffe and produced by Adrianna Tapia 548 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: with assistance from Alex Janenveldt, who was mixed by Kyle Murdoch, 549 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 1: and our studio engineer was Thomas Walsh. Our executive producers 550 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: are Kate Osbourne and Mangashatikadur from Kaleidoscope and Katrina Nobel 551 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: from iHeart Podcasts. If you enjoy hearing stories about visionaries 552 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 1: and science and technology, check out our other seasons based 553 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: on the biographies that Walter Isaacson has written. On Musk 554 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,720 Speaker 1: for an intimate dive into all the facets of Elon 555 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: Musk and on Benjamin Franklin to understand how his scientific 556 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: curiosity shaped society as we know it.