1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: Breaking news Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing, day twenty six. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: This after a flurry of activity at Nancy Guthrie's home, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: including federal prosecutors one in a blacked out suv that 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: drives into the garage and has never seen what's going 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: on inside of Nancy Guthrie's home just a few hours ago. This, 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: as we learn, DNA found in the home does not 8 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: match Nancy Guthrie or her friends and family. So whose 9 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 2: isn't and what does a digital blackout have to do 10 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: with catching the kidnapper? 11 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to 12 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. 13 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 3: Intruder or intruders came into the snuck into her room, 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: awakened her out of a dead sleep, and took this 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 3: eighty four year old grandmother out of her own bed, A. 16 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 2: Little old lady dragged out of her own bed. 17 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 4: Hi there, coming on to say, it is day twenty 18 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 4: four since our mom was taken in the dark of 19 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 4: night from her bed, and every hour and minute and 20 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 4: second and every long night has been agony since then 21 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 4: of worrying about her and fearing for her. And aching 22 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 4: for her, and most of all just missing her, just 23 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 4: missing her. 24 00:01:55,200 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: Savannah Guthrie, you can see her deteriorating with missive with 25 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 2: every video plea that she issues. That reward is full 26 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 2: of implications. 27 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: For instance, earlier, up. 28 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: Until that time, the reward had been predicated upon the 29 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: arrest and or conviction of the kidnapper. 30 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: Not so anymore. 31 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 2: The family begging for information to bring Nancy Guthrie home. 32 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: This as we learn a DNA sample found in the 33 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: home is absolutely definitively stranger DNA. Where was it found? 34 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: When was it found? Can it be isolated and identified? 35 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: A lot happening straight out to special guests joining us 36 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: Mary Coleman, she is the thirteen Evening anchor at KOLD. 37 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: If you will recall that was one of the stations 38 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 2: that we got a ransom note. Mary Coleman, thank you 39 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 2: for being with us. 40 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: Mary. 41 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 5: What is the latest, well, Nancy talking about the ransom note. 42 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 5: A lot of people have questioned why there's been silence. 43 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 5: We personally haven't received any notes for a while now, 44 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 5: and a lot of people are still questioning the legitimacy 45 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 5: of those notes. Law enforcement still hasn't said one way 46 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 5: or another, but It was clear when the family started 47 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 5: coming out with those videos that they were taking these 48 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 5: notes very seriously because of some of the contents of them. 49 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: There was a flurry of activity at the home yesterday, 50 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: including federal prosecutors on the scene. You're seeing that video 51 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: now from our friends at Fox News, Mary Colman, can 52 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: you confirm those were, in fact federal prosecutors as we 53 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: assumed last night? 54 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 5: Yes, we can, and we have confirmed that biagent's along 55 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 5: with the US. 56 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 6: Attorney's office, we're out there. 57 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 5: People had some questions about that, you know, if there's 58 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 5: no one to prosecute yet, why are they out there? 59 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 6: And I feel like you might be able to shed 60 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 6: some light on that. 61 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: Guys, take a look at what we saw yesterday. This 62 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: is from our friends at Fox News to you, Dave 63 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 2: Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter. You and I closely combed 64 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 2: through the video to determine what we were seeing yesterday. Again, 65 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: a florry of activity. 66 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: They were there throughout the day, on and off, on 67 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: and off. One of them. 68 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: Shielded from view by taking the black the blackened windowed 69 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 2: suv into the garage, closing the door, going in and 70 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: then coming back out without ever being seen. 71 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: What did you observe, Dave Matc. 72 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 3: You know, Nancy, it was very secretive with that one vehicle. Now, 73 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: as all the vehicles pulled in, we could see the 74 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 3: different investigators getting out. They were dressed differently than what 75 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 3: we had seen with deputies and other investigators. We're talking 76 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: about suit and tie here. Those are your federal prosecutors 77 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: that were looking over this entire scene. But Nancy, they 78 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 3: spent a lot of time they being the investigators on 79 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 3: scene yesterday, the federal prosecutors spent a long time at 80 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 3: the front door where the blood was found, right there 81 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 3: in front of that nest camera location. They spent almost 82 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: an hour in that one area. Investigators also looked just 83 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 3: inside in the foyer. Spent an enormous a large amount 84 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 3: of time there. But as you mentioned, we did have 85 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 3: multiple vehicles pulling in. They all stayed in order except 86 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 3: for one, and that was a blackened out suv you 87 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 3: could not see through the windows. It pulls in. They 88 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 3: waited in front of the garage door. Garage door opens, 89 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: the vehicle pulls in, garage door shuts before anybody gets out. 90 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 3: We don't know who was in the vehicle. We don't 91 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 3: know who got out. It was there for about an 92 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: hour and then it left the same way it came in. 93 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 3: No sign of who was in that vehicle, but it 94 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 3: was a very active day on site yesterday. 95 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard joining us on DNA. 96 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: Tammy, I want you to hear what Mary Coleman has 97 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 2: to say about the discovery of DNA in the home. 98 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 2: Mary Coleman joining us ko ld Also, Mary, were you 99 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: there at your station when the first note came in. 100 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 5: The mood was still the same when I got in 101 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 5: when we saw the first notes, just because of how. 102 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 6: Put together the note was. 103 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 5: It was pretty alarming once we started to read it 104 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 5: a little further and we immediately handed that over to 105 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 5: law enforcement. 106 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: What was so alarming about it. 107 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 5: I think how eloquent this person was, Frankly, Nancy. I mean, 108 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 5: you would think, you know, some note like this would 109 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 5: would be all over the place. It's a and some 110 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 5: notes someone's demanding something, so you would think that they'd 111 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 5: be in a state of shock or you know, a 112 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,559 Speaker 5: different state. But this person was clearly in a place 113 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 5: where they were able to get their thoughts across. It 114 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 5: was clear, concise, and I think that was what was 115 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 5: most alarming to us. 116 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: Is that. 117 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 5: That's when we said, Okay, this this might be real, 118 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 5: This might not be a hoax. 119 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: What about it made you think it was real? Mary? 120 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 5: There were some details in there that only a person 121 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 5: who perhaps was with Nancy would know, and I think 122 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 5: you know, law enforcement finally alluded to some of those 123 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 5: details a little bit later on a watch and some 124 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 5: of the things that may have been in her room. 125 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 5: And so seeing those and hearing about that was just 126 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 5: it was a lot for us to see and again 127 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 5: immediately sent it over to law enforcement, who also immediately 128 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 5: got back to us and asked for some more details 129 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 5: so that they could try and track down who it was. 130 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 5: And as we also mentioned again earlier, it's gone pretty 131 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 5: silent from whoever this person or people is as far 132 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 5: as notes coming into our newsroom. 133 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: Mary, did that note that you observed with Kold did 134 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: it offer proof of life other than the details about 135 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: the inside of her room? 136 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 6: It did not. Nancy. 137 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 5: We actually received two notes. The first one I would 138 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 5: call a ransom note, the second I wouldn't. There were 139 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 5: no demands there, but there was no proof of life 140 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 5: in either of those notes that we received. 141 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: The first one was a ransom the second one they 142 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: did not ask for a ransom, what do they want? 143 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 5: It was more of a declaration, And unfortunately, I still 144 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 5: can't talk too much about the contents of these notes 145 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 5: because once again we still don't know the legitimacy of them. 146 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 5: In law enforcement is still looking into that. But there 147 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 5: were no requests in this note. It was more of 148 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 5: a declar and I think the tone of the videos 149 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 5: that the family released after kind of indicated what may 150 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 5: have been in that note and how they were feeling 151 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 5: about if these were. 152 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: Legitimate exactly, Mary, I understand because the desperation exhibited in 153 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: each progressive video from Savannah and her siblings tells me 154 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: that they got more and more concerned, likely because of 155 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: these notes. 156 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: So you're not telling. 157 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: Me this, but I am interpreting that the second note, 158 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: while it did not demand a ransom or an increase 159 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: in ransom, it emphasized the seriousness of the first note, 160 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: and of course. 161 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: You guys immediately handed that over. 162 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: Guys Again, Mary Coleman joining us from KOLD, we've heard 163 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 2: a lot about the missive sent to TMZ. 164 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: There was also a missive sent. 165 00:09:54,920 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: To kg U N two sent to KOLD, and the 166 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: nature of the notes and the recipients indicated to me 167 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: on day one that this was someone in the Tucson 168 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: area that maybe grew up hearing or watching Kold. 169 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: Was very familiar with it. 170 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: That said, when you read the notes, Mary Coleman, and 171 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 2: I'm not asking you to divulge their contents, I know 172 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: you won't do that. 173 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: Did you believe they were real? And were you afraid 174 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: for missus Guthrie? 175 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, I mean the first one, it took us 176 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 5: a second once we started reading a little bit further, 177 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 5: and that's when we felt like these were legitimate claims 178 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 5: being made. And so by the time the second one 179 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 5: came in, we were all very alarmed by it. And 180 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 5: I will say that, yes, absolutely, our stomach dropped and 181 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 5: our guts were not feeling great. We were scared and 182 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 5: still are scared for or what happened to Nancy. And 183 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 5: at the end of the day, of the goal is 184 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 5: getting her back, and that's you know what everyone wants 185 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 5: right now. 186 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 2: I know you will not divulge details. But in the notes, 187 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 2: did the perp well the person writing the notes threatened 188 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: specific harm to Nancy. 189 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 5: See in the first note there was an allusion to 190 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 5: something that may happen if a price wasn't paid. In 191 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 5: the second note, there was none of that. 192 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: So the first note was more threatening than the second note. 193 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: The second note was more. 194 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: Hey, I really meant it when I said that first note. 195 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,479 Speaker 6: Sure that be accurate, supporting the first correct. 196 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 2: Got it and then interestingly a lot of the missives 197 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:54,359 Speaker 2: went dead. And this is unlike any other ransom scenario 198 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: I've ever seen. I've still got to get back to 199 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: the DNA. That's what I want to talk about tonight. 200 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: And they found at the scene. But Brayfzgibbons is joining 201 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: US Director Operations usp A nationwide security. 202 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: He actually leads a team. 203 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: Of missing persons investigators that traveled the world extracting them 204 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 2: and finding them at uspasecurity dot Com. Also from a 205 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 2: marine also Iraqi war Vet. Needless to say, he's seen 206 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: it all. Typically in a ransom, which is why a 207 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: lot of people were curious about the timing of these notes. 208 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: The person is kidnapped and you immediately get a ransom. 209 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: They don't just hold on to an eighty four year 210 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: old woman from multiple days and then go oh, yeah, hey, 211 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: I meant to send this the other day, but now 212 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: here it is. That was very unusual because the point 213 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: of the kidnap is to get the money, and they 214 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: waited for was it seventy two hours or more before 215 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: the first ransom note. 216 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe, Brian. You have to 217 00:12:58,160 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: analyze this like. 218 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: It's Rubik's cub until you put it all together, constantly 219 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: changing your theory. I wonder if they hadn't decided yet 220 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 2: to whom they would send the ransom because they originally 221 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: sent it right to three places TMZ Kold and believe. 222 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: kgU n. 223 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: Did they not have it together because they had certainly 224 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 2: been at her home before, they had taken time to 225 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: stake it out. But what they didn't have their ransom 226 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: idea together? What do you make of the delay? 227 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: And they never, to our knowledge, have sent. 228 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 2: Visual proof of life like a video or a picture 229 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 2: of Nancy Guthrie. They did, however, according to Mary Coleman, 230 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: Kold give details from the inside of her room. Now, 231 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 2: some of the details were already out there, like her 232 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: smart watch, like the floodlight. But I'm inferring that there 233 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: were more details in that ransom note that other people 234 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: couldn't glean by just hopping on the internet. 235 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 7: Absolutely, in these ransom notes that were sent to the 236 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 7: media outlets don't meet any of the traditional hallmarks of 237 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 7: a kidnap and ransom case. That's something that's been highlighted 238 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 7: very early on, right reaching out to the media versus 239 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 7: directly to the family, not having a clear and distinct 240 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 7: path for payment, and terms, not providing proof of life. 241 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 7: You know, these are things that a typical kidnap and 242 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 7: ransom case, the ransomer will want to be in direct 243 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 7: contact with the family to make this deal as quickly 244 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 7: as possible, and that didn't happen here. So it really 245 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 7: lends credence to the idea that these were opportunists and 246 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 7: not authentic. 247 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: To doctor Bethany Marshall joining a psychoalyst out of the 248 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: LA jurisdiction. She's the author of deal Breakers. 249 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: You can see her now on peacock and find her 250 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: a doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. We pointed out that we 251 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: now know Nancy Guthrie did not go to the door 252 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: and allow the purp in, and there's been a lot 253 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: of speculation around does that mean she knew the purp? 254 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: Did she recognize his face or his voice? That said 255 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: that didn't happen. She was dragged from her bed. 256 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: So an elderly grandma woken up at that time of night, 257 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: what reaction would she have had? 258 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, we have to take several factors into account. 259 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 8: Does she wear hearing aids? Were they out? How does 260 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 8: that affect how she experienced the attack. Was she clothed 261 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 8: or unclothed? Did she wear a seatpot machine? Does she 262 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 8: have oxygen? So we have to think about all of that, Nancy. 263 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 8: When somebody is attacked in the middle of the night, 264 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 8: when they're asleep, especially an elderly person, the first response 265 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 8: is shock, a shock to the system like fight or flight. 266 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 8: The next step is disorientation. 267 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 6: Who am I? 268 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 8: Where am I? What is happening? There's no ability to 269 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 8: orient oneself to the environment. The third step is denial. 270 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 8: This is not really happening to me. This couldn't be 271 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 8: happening to me. The person dissociates from the reality and 272 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 8: then confusion sets in and the final stage, Nancy, is 273 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 8: extreme pain. You know, as seniors, your mother lives with you. 274 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 8: You just touch their skin and it peels back. The 275 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 8: skin of seniors is very, very fragile, So if they 276 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 8: are dragging her through the house, there's going to be 277 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 8: extreme pain and extreme harm to the body. And the 278 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 8: final thing, Nancy, is the first forty five minutes of 279 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 8: a kidnap or abduction is the most dangerous time. So 280 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 8: we have to think about what were these purps or 281 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 8: the purp actually doing to her out of their own panic, 282 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 8: their own ruthlessness to subdue her, And how did that 283 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 8: lead to blood on the doorstep and then the blood 284 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 8: the blood trails stopping as they potentially carried her to 285 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 8: a vehicle. Was she dead or alive at that point? 286 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 8: Was she conscious or unconscious? What was she thinking? But 287 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 8: certainly at that point confusion, shock and disbelief. 288 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 2: Straight back to Mary Colman joining us kold Crime Files. 289 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 2: Is it Crime Files Investigator files? F I L E 290 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: s Okay, I'm sorry. I thought that must have been 291 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: a type I'm sorry, Crime Files Investigator, Mary Coleman. We 292 00:17:53,480 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 2: now know that DNA in Nancy Guthrie's home is stranger DNA, 293 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: but yet we are also hearing that there are problems 294 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 2: because it's mixed DNA. 295 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 6: What do you know, Yeah, we're hearing the same thing, Nancy. 296 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 5: We've been told that it's going to take a longer 297 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 5: amount of time, even up to a year, to get 298 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 5: some of this back to let us know whether this 299 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 5: person is in a system, or whether they have a 300 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 5: relative who we can trace this to, or anything of 301 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 5: that nature, which is obviously concerning time is of the 302 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 5: essence right now. We've seen this technology used in so 303 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 5: many other cases, and so to hear that it's mixed 304 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 5: and that it might not be as reliable as some 305 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 5: of the other DNA that we've seen in previous cases 306 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 5: is alarming for the community and especially for the family. 307 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 6: As you can imagine, they just want answers here. 308 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: Who is it that is saying that it's a problem 309 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: because the DNA is mixed. 310 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: Did Nanos say. 311 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 6: That this is coming from the Sheriff's Department. 312 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 5: I don't know if he specifically said that, but we 313 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 5: received that in a press release that they had released. 314 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: I don't understand why they had to blurt that out, 315 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 2: that said straight out to Timmy Balarie joining us. Tammy's 316 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: a crime scene investigation investigator reconstruction as former DNA criminalists 317 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: for the San Diego Police Department Crime Lab, Tammy Ballard. 318 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: In this day and age, mixed DNA is to be 319 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: expected and is actually routine. 320 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: Explain exactly how. 321 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: Well First of all, what is mixed DNA deoxur rivat 322 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: and claic acid and how exactly mechanically is it evaluated 323 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 2: and analyzed? 324 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: How do you do it? How do you handle mixed DNA? 325 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 9: Mixtures of DNA are going to make law enforcement and 326 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 9: attorneys very nervous. So in the DNA world, mixtures are everywhere. 327 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 9: As technology advanced, the sensitivity increases, you're going to find 328 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 9: mixtures in almost everything. Even bloodstains that used to be 329 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 9: single source, you might get that one percent contributor that's 330 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 9: going to make it a mixture. So that being said, 331 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 9: in this case, we know Nancy's profile, we know her 332 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 9: family's profiles, so there's a lot to work with and 333 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 9: basically remove from those mixtures. Do I think it's going 334 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 9: to take a year? 335 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: Not at all. 336 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 9: I think that's the law enforcement translation because it's probably 337 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 9: lack of understanding. So what they've got is probably good 338 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 9: mixtures that they have to deal with, and they're going 339 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 9: to put those out, But it is not going to 340 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 9: take a year in my opinion. 341 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: Crime stores with Nancy Gray. 342 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: You know Timmy Ballard. 343 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: Little known fact DNA has been used for decades. It's 344 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 2: been used on the battlefield to identify victims our military, 345 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: and it has advanced, advanced advance. I tried a lot 346 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: of cases before it was accepted in court, and a 347 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: lot of cases after it was accepted in court, and 348 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: it makes all the difference. When I heard Nano's blurt 349 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 2: out again, it could take a year, that's not true. 350 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 2: Anyone that has worked with DNA knows that is not true. Now, 351 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: what can take some time, and please Tammy jump in. 352 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 2: What can take some time is when you're trying to 353 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: build out a family tree with genetic genealogy. 354 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: That can take some time. It can take weeks, it 355 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: can take a month. It does not take a year. 356 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 2: And I'll point to one of the first times it 357 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 2: was you successful in our country, and. 358 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: That is the Golden State Killer. 359 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 2: I always use him as the poster boy for genetic 360 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: genealogy because it was one of the first right that 361 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: didn't take a year, and it had never been admitted 362 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 2: in court before. 363 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: So you said a couple of things. I want to 364 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: follow up on. 365 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: Number one, you said there could be a mixture of 366 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: one percent. 367 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: What did you mean by one percent? One percent? 368 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 9: What when I testify in court as I just did 369 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 9: last week, I inform a jury that the sensitivity is 370 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 9: so advanced at this point, and the technology is so 371 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 9: advanced that when historically, if you would swab a blood 372 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 9: stain off of a surface, you're going to get a 373 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 9: single source profiled one person your bleeder. Now, because that 374 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 9: sensitivity has increased, I take a swab, I swab that 375 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 9: blood stain, and I'm very likely collecting cells from underneath 376 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 9: that blood stain, and those cells are showing up in 377 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 9: my and creating a mixture of DNA. So what everyone 378 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 9: needs to realize is that there are mixtures, but the 379 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 9: technology is advancing so much that we're able to deal 380 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 9: with those mixtures so much better. Now there are limitations. 381 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 9: So genealogy is coming along very rapidly, but that type 382 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 9: of testing, that SNIP testing, not the traditional STR testing, 383 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 9: has the limitations that you may not be able to 384 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 9: work with something that is a three person mixture. Now, again, 385 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 9: we have Nancy's profile, So if we take Nancy out 386 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 9: of any mixture, now maybe we're dealing with a two 387 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 9: person mixture and that might be something that we can 388 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 9: use for genealogy. But with traditional str testing, we're up 389 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 9: to evaluating five person mixtures, so that it is definitely 390 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 9: something that we can work with and it does not 391 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 9: take a year. 392 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: Tammy, you said one percent, and when you were originally 393 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 2: explaining dn R mix DNA mixed DNA, and I took 394 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 2: that to mean the mixture could be one percent Nancy 395 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 2: and ninety nine percent the stranger. Can you actually tell 396 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: a jury we had a mixture of DNA. Let's just 397 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 2: pretend we're talking about a rate case. We had a 398 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 2: mixture of DNA, and fifty percent of the DNA that 399 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: we obtained off the victim's body was the victims DNA. 400 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: Fifty percent was the defendants DNA. You can actually I 401 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 2: sew it down to a percentage. 402 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 9: Yes, with the current computer technology, the software that is developed, 403 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 9: you can actually estimate. Now it's an estimate, so you 404 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 9: can estimate the percent of CONSTRA from each person in 405 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 9: that mixture. So when I report the data and I say, okay, 406 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 9: I have a three person mixture, ninety two percent of 407 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 9: that is estimated to come from one contributor and eight 408 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 9: percent of that is estimated to come from another contributor. 409 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 9: I say those values because I was able to get 410 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 9: an eight percent contributor up to a code of search. 411 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 9: So we are moving so far forward with the technology 412 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 9: that it's just better and better. So as long as 413 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 9: the laboratories that they're sending them to are utilizing this technology, 414 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 9: which they are, this is not going to take a year. 415 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 3: The videos from the front porch are not timestamped. We 416 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 3: don't know the daytime or anything. We only know what 417 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 3: we're watching in front of us. There. They're having to 418 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 3: pull back the video layer by layer. 419 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: Multiple law enforcement sources have confirmed those videos or absolutely 420 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 2: two different days. I don't know why, Nanos He'll say 421 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,479 Speaker 2: everything else, but he won't confirm that. That said, in 422 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 2: addition to DNA in the home absolutely belonging to a 423 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: stranger now being analyzed. Tammy ballard with us with any 424 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,479 Speaker 2: question you have regarding DNA. 425 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: She can answer it that. 426 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: As we learn, an elite FBI video team a video 427 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 2: unit is forensic Audio, video and Image analysis unit is 428 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 2: back on the scene, has been back on the scene 429 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: as we. 430 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 1: Go to air tonight. 431 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 2: Scott Iiker is joining us guys, founding member at the 432 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 2: FBI of the Cellular Analysis Survey Team, Homicide Detective Norfolk, Virginia, 433 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 2: twelve years now a precision cellular analysis Scott Aker, thank 434 00:26:58,640 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: you for being with us. 435 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: What does it mean when the FBI is. 436 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 2: Sending in an elite videography team and audio team. We 437 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 2: saw this happen in coburger. 438 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 10: It's very helpful to have people that are experts in 439 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 10: those each individual fields. As you know, I'm an expert 440 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 10: in this cellular stuff and networks, but we have people 441 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 10: that are experts in the video. I'm sure that they've 442 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 10: already been involved in this case and been looking at 443 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 10: the film clips that we got from the doorbell camera, 444 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 10: but there might be other things that they're now at 445 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 10: the house or examining other doorbell camera from the neighborhood. 446 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 10: So it's great that they could be further involved and 447 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 10: use their expertise in pulling data. 448 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: I'm very curious about what it is that they're video 449 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 2: and guys. Here you see an aerial view video of 450 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 2: what went down within the last two four hours at 451 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie's home. 452 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: They walked every inch of. 453 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: The outside, so that gives you an idea of what 454 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: they did on the inside. A federal prosecutor, at least one, 455 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: was with them. This is around friend at friends at 456 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 2: Fox News. Look at them. They are stopping and looking 457 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: at everything of interest everything. Now, as you recall, in 458 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,479 Speaker 2: the last days, a tent was erected around the front 459 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: of Nancy Guthrie's home. Many believe that was there in 460 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: order to get partial darkness. To perform certain tests that 461 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: require partial darkness, such as aluminol, you really need full 462 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: darkness for that. But there are next generations that grew 463 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 2: on that technology that don't need full darkness. 464 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: We believe the FBI had ordered that as well. 465 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 2: To you, Scott Iiker, when you see a federal prosecutor 466 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: with the FBI at the scene, coming over it with 467 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: a fine tooth comb. 468 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: What does that tell you? 469 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: There they have brought a videographer an audio person. 470 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 10: Why, well, there's nothing better than your personal view of 471 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 10: a scene, right. I mean, you can look at pictures. 472 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 10: We've all looked at pictures of homicide scenes, but you 473 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 10: don't get the full aspect of what the sizes, where 474 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 10: everything is placed, how the house looks, how is it accessible. 475 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 10: And you can see that these prosecutors need to go 476 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 10: to the residence and just like sometimes we try to 477 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 10: take juries to the place of a crime scene so 478 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 10: they can visually in person see what's going on and 479 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 10: how things are laid out pictures don't always do a justice. 480 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 10: So getting them out there, having them first hand, see 481 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 10: the whole property, the four year, the inside of the house, 482 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 10: the pool, the fencing, all that would really help the 483 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 10: prosecutors in understanding the case and be able to prosecute 484 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 10: it correctly. 485 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: And not only that, looking for clues, looking for evidence. Guys, 486 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: this is from our friends at Fox News back to you, 487 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: Dave Matt. Recall when the Coburger House was torn down, 488 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: the home there on King Road where four beautiful University 489 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: Idahos students were slaughtered. 490 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: Medi legal eagles like myself thought that. 491 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: Was a major, major fauxpauh, a major error in tactics. 492 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: What if a jury had wanted. 493 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: To visit it or needed to visit it. We also 494 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: see three dimensional crime scene reconstructions built. They could have 495 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: been there doing that because once this home is released 496 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: back to the family, it is of no evidentiary value 497 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: at all. Even if something were found a week from now, 498 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 2: the chain of custody is ruined and it likely will 499 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 2: not come into evidence. Remember when the Coburger crime scene 500 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 2: was destroyed. 501 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 3: It still amazes me that they did that to the 502 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 3: crime scene with Coburger. There have been other cases where 503 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 3: crime scenes were kept intact for ten years. I think 504 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 3: of the Jeffrey McDonald case where that crime scene was 505 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 3: exactly as it was for nine years till they had 506 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 3: the trial and they took the jury to go and 507 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 3: look over the crime scene. In this case, we're talking 508 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 3: about this elite FBI in it that comes out using 509 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 3: top of the line professional audio and video equipment so 510 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 3: that they can go over every part of this inside 511 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 3: and out, and they can make measurements. They got digital 512 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,959 Speaker 3: measurements of everything so they can try to get the 513 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 3: height of the suspect, which is what they did. But 514 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 3: also investigators are going to be taking photos and building 515 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 3: videos that can be viewed probably three D so that 516 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 3: the trial or jurors in the future will have a 517 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 3: look at it. But right now, Nancy, they've still got 518 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 3: to find who did this. So it boggles my mind 519 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 3: that they would return the home back to the family 520 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 3: right now. There's no need to. Nobody else lives there, 521 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 3: nobody in the family lives there, there's no reason to 522 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 3: turn the house back over. 523 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 2: Yet, you know, those measurements that you mentioned can be 524 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 2: so important to Brianitz Gibbons, USPA Nationwide Security. I recall 525 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 2: a murder case I prosecute that had been set up 526 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 2: to look like a suicide, and when I got to 527 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: the scene, I nearly did a backflip because there were 528 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: three guys walking around in the bedroom where the murder occurred, 529 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: believed to. 530 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: Have been a suicide. 531 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: I'm like, who are you and why are you tramping 532 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 2: around in here? Well, lucky for me, they're from the 533 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: medical Examiner's office and they were taking measurements. 534 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: One was down on all fours. 535 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 2: I remember it was carpeted in the bedroom where she 536 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: was killed, and they were taking measurements from the casing 537 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 2: that blows out when you take a shot, and they 538 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: were analyzing the distance from the bed. Now, the theory 539 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 2: was the woman committed suicide. 540 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: But there were no cases. There was no evidence on 541 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: the bed where she was lying practically in the middle 542 00:33:59,240 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: of the bed. 543 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 2: They're found on the floor and they were measuring it, 544 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 2: and that helped me prove, along with blood spatter found 545 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: under her pillow, that she did not commit suicide based 546 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 2: on where they were found. So the victim can't speak 547 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: for themselves. You have to speak for them, and that 548 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: can include very sophisticated DNA evidence like Tammy Ballard is 549 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 2: telling us about, very intricate facts like Mary Coleman is 550 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 2: telling us about, and measurements, measurements that I guarantee you 551 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: they were taking inside that home, and they better take 552 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 2: it before. 553 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: They release that home. I agree with Dave mac I 554 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: don't think they should release that home. Why release it? 555 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 7: Yeah, the length of the hold on this scene. You know, 556 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 7: certainly at the beginning of the case, when it was 557 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 7: originally released, was perplexing, right, and then when you saw 558 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 7: the FBI get involved, it's made a lot more. Since 559 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 7: they've had the scene locked down, You've had investigators in 560 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 7: and out, and now when we see prosecutors there, that 561 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 7: tells me a couple of things. First off, that these 562 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 7: prosecutors our new sets of eyes, and it could indicate 563 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 7: that they are preparing an affidavit for a rest. So 564 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 7: on the good side is hey, this could be part 565 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 7: of a good process that we don't know about. There's 566 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 7: more information there that we don't know about, or it 567 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 7: is that they are indeed preparing to release the scene 568 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 7: and that the FBI has done what they've needed to 569 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 7: do with it and they want to make sure that 570 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 7: those prosecutors get eyes on in person view of that 571 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 7: crime scene. 572 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 2: You're so right, Fitz Gibbons. Remember the Parkland school massacre. 573 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 2: That school stay closed for seven years after. 574 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 6: Prime scene investigation is both an art and a science. 575 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 3: I have been critical of the sheriff in this case 576 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 3: from day one. This sheriff is not a trained. 577 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 6: Public information officer. She's not familiar with my media. 578 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 7: Relations, and he just shouldn't be spouting out and blaming 579 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 7: the media for overreacting and so forth. 580 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 4: Hope against hope, as my sister says, we are blowing 581 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 4: on the embers of hope. 582 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: We also know that. 583 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 6: She may be lost. 584 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 4: She may already be gone. She may have already gone 585 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 4: home to the Lord that she loves and is dancing 586 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 4: in heaven with her mom and her dad and with 587 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 4: her beloved brother appears and with our daddy. And if 588 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 4: this is what is to be, then we will accept it. 589 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 4: But we need to know where she is. We need 590 00:36:58,920 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 4: her to come home. 591 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 2: One point two plus million dollars reward, Doctor Bethony Marshall, 592 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: How can we break the bond of loyalty amongst the 593 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 2: kidnappers or amongst that small orbit of the kidnapper, the girlfriend, 594 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: the wife, the neighbor, the co conspirator, the friend. 595 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: How can we break that bond? Will one point two 596 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,720 Speaker 1: million dollars do it? It should? 597 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 8: It could, Nancy, there's a very specific strategy to the 598 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 8: offering of a larger reward as the case progresses. You know, Nancy, 599 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 8: if you offer a million dollar reward at the beginning, 600 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 8: the purp could panic and kill the victim. So you 601 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 8: do not want to do that. And also you get 602 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 8: all these false leads, you know, flooding in. But offering 603 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 8: a one or one point two million dollar reward right now, 604 00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 8: they the Guthrie family is not appealing to morality. Remember 605 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 8: Savannah said, you know, we believe in the goodness of 606 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 8: human nature. They're appealing to the intrinsic motivation of turning 607 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 8: in the perpetrator. Now they are appealing to the extrinsic motivation, 608 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 8: meaning money, Nancy, money, big money that could change the 609 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 8: rest of a person's life. That reduces loyalty. And you 610 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,760 Speaker 8: know what, Nancy, that much money causes people to think. 611 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 8: It's like when powerball or the lottery starts to go 612 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 8: way up. 613 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 6: Somebody who might not have. 614 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 8: Bought a lottery ticket before is going to think about 615 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 8: stopping into the local seven eleven and buying a lottery ticket. 616 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 8: Somebody who sees a one point two million dollar reward 617 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 8: is going to start to think, Hmm, who do I 618 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 8: know that was out in the middle of the night 619 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 8: at that night, or that boyfriend I dated, but I 620 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 8: don't really like him so much now, you know what, 621 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 8: I like the thought of a one point two million 622 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 8: reward a lot more. So, They're not playing on you know, 623 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 8: people's anymore. They're playing on greed. 624 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 2: Much has been made on the cell phone data the 625 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 2: dump that was created by the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team. Recall, 626 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 2: there has already been one detainment, a catch and release 627 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: of a guy that performed deliveries worked in the area 628 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: neighbors were rated their phones very well may have been 629 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 2: active around the time that Nancy Guthrie was kidnapped. 630 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: But it's not just what we. 631 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 2: Are seeing on her street or around her home the 632 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 2: night Nancy was kidnapped. 633 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: It's what we are not seeing. Go with me. It's 634 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: called a digital blackout. 635 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 2: And as I would try to tell the jury things 636 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 2: I found it was easier to explain the law or 637 00:39:53,760 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 2: facts with examples. Remember Coburger, that cold blooded kill. He 638 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: thought this one night of all knights, to turn off 639 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 2: his cell phone when he approached the murder scene on 640 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 2: King Rhad where he robbed four beautiful young Ida host 641 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 2: students of their lives and destroyed the lives of their 642 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 2: families forever. 643 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: He turned off his cell phone. Then he thought to 644 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: turn it. 645 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 2: Back on after the murders when he immediately called his mommy. 646 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 2: We also see it in the Suzanne Morphew case. According 647 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 2: to prosecutors, not proven yet, Barry Morphew murdered his wife 648 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 2: Suzanne and had turned off his cell phone at very 649 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 2: critical moments around the time of her disappearance. 650 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: A digital blackout? What is it? How do you find it? 651 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: Straight out to Scott Iiker, a founding member of the 652 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 2: FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team Nor Virginia Homicide twelve years 653 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 2: now at Precision Cellularanalysis dot com. Scott, here's my question 654 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 2: about digital blackouts. Number one, what is a digital blackout? 655 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 2: And number two, I'm very curious could cast Cellular Analysis 656 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 2: Survey team pick up on their data up from multiple 657 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 2: towers a cell phone approaching and then cutting their cell 658 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 2: phone off and then cutting it back on. 659 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean, how does this whole thing work? Okay, start 660 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 1: with the definition. 661 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 10: So a digital blackout is when the suspects basically try 662 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 10: to turn off all their electronic devices so their phones 663 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 10: cannot be tracked to the crime scene. Well, that might 664 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 10: be a good idea for the day and time of 665 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 10: the crime if they're that savvy. Most criminals are not. 666 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 10: But I've worked numerous cases along with the Coburger and 667 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 10: Brian Murphy cases where they've used, you know, tried to 668 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 10: turn off their phones or digital devices at the time 669 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 10: of the crime, but they're not smart enough to turn 670 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 10: it off when they go case the crime a day, 671 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 10: a week, whatever before the crime. So that's one of 672 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 10: the things that the cash unit will be doing is 673 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 10: looking at which phones are you know, in that area 674 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 10: a week before, a month before, maybe some of the 675 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 10: dates we've already talked about with the videos, and which 676 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 10: ones are not there at the time of the crime 677 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 10: because they might have turned off their phones. So in 678 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 10: those type cases, what the kind of bookends Like Coburger, 679 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 10: it's something you can show the jury he's there ten 680 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 10: times in the area of King Road in the middle 681 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 10: of the night, but on the night of the crime. 682 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 10: He turns off his phone, turns off his wife, turns 683 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 10: off his bluetooth when he leaves his house, and then 684 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 10: turns it back on on the way back home after 685 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 10: killing the four individuals. Sometimes that's just as telling to 686 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:19,839 Speaker 10: the jury as the phone being in the area. 687 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 688 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 2: Scott Ker, I need to understand the mechanics of how 689 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 2: CAST identifies a cell phone or you connect in a 690 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 2: car or a smart watch, or in anything connecting to cellular, 691 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 2: connecting to Wi Fi. 692 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: How do you. 693 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 2: ISO a vehicle or a cell approaching let's just say, 694 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 2: on the main thoroughfare, maybe around the circle K coming 695 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 2: that way. How do you id and ISO isolate a 696 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 2: vehicle coming that way and then note that it turns 697 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 2: off as it approaches the turn in to Nancy Gathrie Subdivision, 698 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 2: and then how do you pick it back up when 699 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 2: it's leaving. 700 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: How did they do that with Coburger? 701 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 10: Well, you got to remember they identified Coldburger through other 702 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 10: ways first, and then they got his phone records and 703 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 10: be able to kind of look at all that pattern analysis. 704 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,839 Speaker 10: It wasn't the cellular stuff that brought them to Koldberger. 705 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 10: Initially they found him through the DNA on the knife sheath. 706 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 10: But once you get that data, you can get all 707 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 10: that pattern of life based on that phone records and 708 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 10: the person. Now, if you don't have a person identified, 709 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 10: it's a lot harder to look at the thousands of 710 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,439 Speaker 10: phones in there and try to figure out which ones 711 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 10: are relevant to the case. In the tower dome, Wait, 712 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 10: put him up, which ones are relevant? 713 00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, whoa whoa? 714 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,399 Speaker 2: Hold on, It's two o'clock in the morning in an 715 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 2: isolated area. There's nobody around except the guys we keep 716 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 2: picking up on door cam. Same guy with the backpack. 717 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: Why are all these guys walking around the neighborhood at 718 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,760 Speaker 1: two am with a backpack and looking sneaky? That said, 719 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: how many cars are traveling in that area? Not many. 720 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,720 Speaker 2: Remember this is an isolated and remote area. 721 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: It's not in the heart of Tucson. 722 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 2: So when you're saying pick out a cell phone with 723 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 2: all of this activity, there's not a lot of activity. 724 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: Come on, how hard can it be? 725 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 10: Iker, Well, I understand that you might not understand that 726 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:55,479 Speaker 10: the cell phone towers they might be five, four, ten 727 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,479 Speaker 10: miles away from Nancy Guthrie's house and cover a huge 728 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 10: amount of area, right, So that neighborhood might not have 729 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 10: a lot of activity, but you expand out to the 730 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 10: coverage area of all the towers that might give some 731 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 10: signal to the area of Nancy Guthrie's house. You might 732 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 10: look at ten different towers, all covering two or three 733 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 10: miles of area itself. When you put all that together, 734 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 10: you have hundreds of phones and devices, cell phones, cars, 735 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 10: anything that has a cellular connection. That's a lot of 736 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 10: beata still to go through. Even though the it's a 737 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 10: sparser area than maybe a downtown area like Denver, but 738 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 10: you still have a lot of phones in that area 739 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 10: and devices. 740 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 2: And also iiker you can isolate it by time, not 741 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,359 Speaker 2: necessarily the time the per entered the subdivision. And that's 742 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,399 Speaker 2: using that word subdivision a very loose sense of the word, 743 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 2: because it's more like a rural area because the homes 744 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 2: are far apart, there's so much foliage. But the leaving, 745 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,280 Speaker 2: the leaving can be identified not necessarily when the person 746 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 2: gets there, because they could have staked out our house. 747 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: For three hours for all I know. But the leaving, 748 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: you know, they wanted to get out of there. 749 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 2: Like a bad out of hell. This video from our 750 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 2: friend's at twelve News. So that is something I think 751 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,080 Speaker 2: you can eye so much easily, much more easily. It 752 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 2: is when they were leaving, So you've got it narrowed 753 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 2: down to like an hour of the time. 754 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: They were leaving. And if there is a blackout, digital 755 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:41,400 Speaker 1: blackout bookended, you've got one of those bookends down to 756 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:47,719 Speaker 1: an hour. Again, you're right, I don't know anything about this. 757 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,000 Speaker 2: To be a good trial lawyer, you have to admit 758 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 2: you're not an expert in everything. One thing you're an 759 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 2: expert in that's trying a case. But as a layperson, 760 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 2: how hard can it be? You've got it narrow down 761 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,320 Speaker 2: for an one hour in a remote area. 762 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 10: Well, there's many reasons a phone could move in and 763 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,360 Speaker 10: out of that area, or be turned off or turned on. 764 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 10: So it's a lot of analytical work to try to 765 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 10: figure out which phones are relevant to the case and 766 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 10: which ones are not. Sometimes we can get more specific 767 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 10: data on the towers and distance from the towers the 768 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,280 Speaker 10: phones are, and that does help us kind of indicate, 769 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 10: all right, this phone is traveling down this road. But 770 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 10: ninety percent of the time, which you can get from 771 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 10: the phone records themselves are towers that were used, the 772 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 10: sector or side of the tower that was used, and 773 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 10: maybe a possible distance from the tower that phone is. 774 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 10: So it's not as precise as we want to think 775 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 10: it like it is in you know, the movies are 776 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,240 Speaker 10: on CSI on TV. It takes a lot of work. 777 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 1: Put him up, I ker, you're preaching to the choir. 778 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 2: I know that real kidnapping and real felony cases are 779 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 2: not like in the movies. 780 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,399 Speaker 1: But you're absolutely right, and. 781 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,840 Speaker 2: Believe me, I am not trying to get three inches 782 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:23,320 Speaker 2: up the tailpipe of Sale Analysis Survey team. Without them, 783 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,920 Speaker 2: we wouldn't have what we've got right now, See what 784 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I get it. I just don't understand everything 785 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 2: the complexities of the technology that CAST is using, and 786 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 2: I'm trying to understand it. 787 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:37,520 Speaker 1: Back out to Mary. 788 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:45,040 Speaker 2: Coleman joining US News Evening anchor Channel thirteen. Kold everyone 789 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,160 Speaker 2: knows Kold and that region, but now across the nation 790 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 2: everyone knows Kold because they came forward with ransom notes. 791 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 2: So Mary Coleman, in this last plea from Savannah our 792 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 2: friend Savannah go three. Already nearly two thousand tips have 793 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,560 Speaker 2: come in additional tips, right. 794 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:07,680 Speaker 6: That's correct? 795 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, they haven't stopped, and that was the goal with 796 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,920 Speaker 5: putting out the one million dollar reward is to have 797 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,239 Speaker 5: more people coming in and hopefully giving something of substance. Unfortunately, 798 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 5: a lot of those tips have not been substantial, as 799 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 5: we've talked about. But the hope is that even just 800 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,839 Speaker 5: something small can can turn this into bringing Nancy home. 801 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,720 Speaker 2: Mary Coleman, you are so right, Mary, it only takes 802 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 2: one one tip. And believe you me, there is an accomplice. 803 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,840 Speaker 2: Someone does know what's going on other than the suspect, 804 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,320 Speaker 2: and I believe that her last plate and this million 805 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 2: dollar now one point two million dollar reward is targeted 806 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,319 Speaker 2: at not just this suspect, not the suspect actually, but 807 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:08,319 Speaker 2: his small orbit around him. If there is an accomplice, 808 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 2: they may be having second thoughts as we go to 809 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 2: air tonight. Mary Coleman, you're absolutely correct. If you know 810 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 2: or think you know anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, 811 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,799 Speaker 2: please die all toll free one eight hundred, call FBI 812 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,759 Speaker 2: one eight hundred, two two five five three two four, 813 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,400 Speaker 2: or if you wish to remain anonymous five two zero 814 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,799 Speaker 2: eight eight two seven four six three repeat five two 815 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 2: zero eight eight two seven, four, six three. 816 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: A one point two plus million dollar reward hangs in 817 00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:50,840 Speaker 1: the balance. 818 00:51:52,239 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 2: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,