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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. It's officially summer, and that

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Speaker 1: means it's time for our tradition and here's the thing

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Speaker 1: where our staff shares their favorite episodes from the archives

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Speaker 1: in our Summer Staff Picks series. One of my favorite

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Speaker 1: episodes was with filmmaker James Jones, director of the Apples series,

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Speaker 1: wanted the escape of Carlos Gone. The conversation so intrigued

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Speaker 1: me I wanted to explore the story even deeper and

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Speaker 1: interview one of the subjects of the film, Michael Taylor,

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Speaker 1: which I did earlier this year. Here's my conversation with

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Speaker 1: James Jones and Michael Taylor. Bernie Madeoff, Elizabeth Holmes, Sam

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Speaker 1: Bankman Freed. It's easy to think that shocking levels of

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Speaker 1: greed and corruption are simply nothing new in the world

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Speaker 1: of white collar crime. But what is new is an

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Speaker 1: accused chief executive evading prosecution by escaping to a foreign

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Speaker 1: country in a box. That's the story of Carlos gon,

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Speaker 1: former CEO of both Nissan and Renault. Goen was arrested

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Speaker 1: on the eve of a proposed merger between the two

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Speaker 1: companies and charged with financial misconduct. He was first placed

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Speaker 1: in solitary confinement and then house arrest, awaiting trial in Japan.

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Speaker 1: That is until former Green Beret Michael Taylor and his

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Speaker 1: son Peter shipped him off to Lebanon. The scandal ultimately

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Speaker 1: resulted in the sentencing of the tailors and former Nissan

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Speaker 1: executive Greg Kelly, while Goon walks free, maintaining his innocence.

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Speaker 1: Documentarian James Jones, director of the BAFT winning Chernobyl The

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Speaker 1: Last Tapes, brought this story to life in the four

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Speaker 1: part series Wanted the Escape of Carlos Gon on Apple TV.

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Speaker 1: The series weaves questions surrounding a corporate takedown and the

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Speaker 1: potential framing of Gone with the claims of CEO excess.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know what was the background of someone

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Speaker 1: who went from CEO to fugitive in such a swift

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Speaker 1: fall from grace.

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Speaker 2: So he is a fascinating character. So he was born

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Speaker 2: in Brazil, in a town in the deepest Amazonian jungle,

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Speaker 2: grew up mainly in Lebanon, went to university in France,

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Speaker 2: but was always kind of viewed as an outsider. You know,

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Speaker 2: he was never really accepted by the French establishment. He

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Speaker 2: never played the game of sucking up to politicians, going

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Speaker 2: to the right clubs, you know, having dinners with captains

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Speaker 2: of industry. He kind of thought he was so brilliant

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Speaker 2: he could play by his own rules, which ultimately left

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Speaker 2: him without many allies when it all came crashing down.

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Speaker 2: He worked for Michelin, the tire company, which is where

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Speaker 2: he kind of showed that he had this skill for

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Speaker 2: like cost cutting and turning companies around, and then was

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Speaker 2: recruited by Reno and became known as Lacoste Killer, and

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Speaker 2: you know, broke kind of French unions and sacked a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, shut down factories, was like hugely controversial.

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Speaker 2: And then when Reno took over Nissan, they thought, this

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Speaker 2: is the guy to go to Japan and just like

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Speaker 2: modernize this company, be ruthless, fire the people he needs

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Speaker 2: to fire, and just like save this company from death.

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Speaker 1: It's so strange to hear someone reference going into the

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Speaker 1: Nissan culture to strip down and to make a Japanese

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Speaker 1: car company leaner and better and more competitive, when you're

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Speaker 1: always under the impression that the Japanese companies, particularly car companies,

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Speaker 1: are the leanest and meanest of them all. When Gone

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Speaker 1: goes over to Japan, does he find a lot of

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Speaker 1: fat there?

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Speaker 2: He does. There were practices that had just always been

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Speaker 2: the same way. There were you know, car companies, own

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Speaker 2: shares in supermarkets, so all these kind of weird idiosyncrasies

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Speaker 2: that the Japanese staff just saw as normal, you know,

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Speaker 2: and it took an outsider like Going. And another interesting

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Speaker 2: thing about Going is I think, you know, some people

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Speaker 2: in Japan said to us, you know, he was viewed

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Speaker 2: with great suspicion to begin with, but the fact that

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Speaker 2: he was like culturally hard to place. You know, he

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Speaker 2: wasn't French, he wasn't American, you know, he was willing

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Speaker 2: to be the bad go Yeah, exactly. He didn't kind

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Speaker 2: of stand on ceremony. He was absolutely ruthless, and on

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Speaker 2: some level, perhaps because they were facing you know, complete extinction,

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Speaker 2: they kind of went with it. And the results were

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Speaker 2: so quick. He said, if I don't turn this round

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Speaker 2: within three years, are quit. He turned it around within

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Speaker 2: a year, and you know, it was just massive efficiencies

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Speaker 2: straight off the bat. And you know, I think initially

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Speaker 2: people thought he'd cooked the books, but it was it

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Speaker 2: was just the same ruthlessness he had, and he's he's

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Speaker 2: an interesting guy because he's obviously brilliant, but he's not

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Speaker 2: someone like a Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg who has

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Speaker 2: one design or iconic brand or something that's associated with him.

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Speaker 2: What he did, he just had this focus and this

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Speaker 2: work ethic, and he inspired the people around him to

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Speaker 2: commit to going further than they'd ever pushed before and

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Speaker 2: sticking with him when he made hard decisions. And so

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Speaker 2: what was so fascinating making the series is you see

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Speaker 2: how all these things that made him brilliant, as the

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Speaker 2: success started to go to his head, he kind of

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Speaker 2: lost them. You know, he wasn't working so hard. He

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Speaker 2: was spending a lot of time on the private jet

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Speaker 2: go you know, throwing parties at Vesai, going to Rio Carnival,

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Speaker 2: you know, whereas his employees were still buying their own

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Speaker 2: stationery and you know, desperately working and trying podcasts wherever

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Speaker 2: they could. And actually, like it was just a really old,

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Speaker 2: kind of tragic story of success. It's like losing sight

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Speaker 2: of what made you so great and suddenly people around

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Speaker 2: you thinking, you know, this emperor has no clothes.

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Speaker 1: I'm aware of this story, and you decided you wanted

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Speaker 1: to make this documentary after Gone went to Lebanon and

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Speaker 1: after the tailors went to prison.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I became aware of the story really when

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Speaker 2: he escaped. You know, I remember the headlines around the world.

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Speaker 2: The New York Post had this like enormous double bass case,

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Speaker 2: and you know, the rumor was he was smuggled out

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Speaker 2: in a music equipment box. But the film came about,

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Speaker 2: I think it was the summer of twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: and Apple wanted to do a series on the story.

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Speaker 2: They had approached this production company. At that point, we

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Speaker 2: had no access to Gon. It was a couple of

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Speaker 2: months before the tailors were extradited to Japan, effectively swapping

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Speaker 2: places with the man they'd helped escape. So we started

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Speaker 2: with very little really. You know, we knew this was

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Speaker 2: an amazing story. There was a kind of Hollywood heist

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Speaker 2: element to it of one of the world's most famous

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Speaker 2: business people being smuggled out of an island, a very

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Speaker 2: kind of closely monitored country, smuggled inside a music box

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Speaker 2: on a private jet.

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear for our audience. When you

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Speaker 1: say music box, you mean the cases that they stowed

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Speaker 1: musical equipment.

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Speaker 2: In right exactly. Yeah, and there was like a guitar

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Speaker 2: case on top.

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Speaker 1: Gone was a bit of a band, and there was

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Speaker 1: a little guy. So that made getting him out of

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Speaker 1: the country slightly easier than I would have been if

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Speaker 1: he was six foot five or something. So you became

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Speaker 1: aware of the story after the escape.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. The name was familiar. You know, he was

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Speaker 2: this kind of superstar in the car industry. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist a filmmaker, but I don't follow the

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Speaker 2: car industry that closely. I mean, I remember, you know,

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Speaker 2: there was shock you know, in Japan, he was like

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Speaker 2: a demigod. You know, there were like manga comic books

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Speaker 2: about his life. He was voted you know, the man

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Speaker 2: women would most like to have children with, you know,

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Speaker 2: and he's not a conventionally handsome guy. So you know,

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Speaker 2: he had this aura and this incredible reputation and then overnight,

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Speaker 2: suddenly all that just came crashing down.

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Speaker 1: I watched the film and I look at a timeline

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Speaker 1: when you likely got involved. So when you see the party,

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Speaker 1: he goes to the Versai at a restaurant Corveracai, and

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Speaker 1: he has this party, and yet you have a lot

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Speaker 1: of footage from that party. How did he film the party?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Ghones had organized the Marie Antoinette themed

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Speaker 2: party at Versailles, and like, if you know your history,

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Speaker 2: Marie Antoinette is you know the symbol. You know, her

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Speaker 2: famous quote is let the meat cakes. She's the symbol

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Speaker 2: of kind of extreme inequality. And you know, within France,

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Speaker 2: people getting their come up, and so like perhaps an

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Speaker 2: unwise party theme for a man who's using his company

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Speaker 2: brace the yeah, bit of hoo race, you can say.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, the party organizers hired a videographer to shoot

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Speaker 2: all these people dressed in kind of Marie Antoinette themed

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Speaker 2: you know, garbs, and it's kind of completely revolutionary France. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean it stirs up a revolutionary in all of us,

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: See, so you get some wonderful footage things like that,

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Speaker 1: the party, you're sit downs with Gone and his wife.

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Speaker 1: But Going in particular that shot I'm assuming in Lebanon

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Speaker 1: after the fact, when he's when he's once he's escaped

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Speaker 1: to Lebanon exactly, and and Gone strikes me as it

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Speaker 1: seemed like one of those situations where James Jones could

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Speaker 1: have left the room for several hours and gone could

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Speaker 1: have spoken into the camera ceaselessly, you know, decrying his

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Speaker 1: innocence about what he seems like somebody who he could

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Speaker 1: go on and on forever to maintain his innocence. He's

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Speaker 1: almost never going to be satisfied.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, he feels wronged. You know, when I asked him,

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Speaker 2: do you feel sorry for the victims in this story?

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Speaker 2: You know, there's been a huge amount of collateral damage,

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Speaker 2: lives ruined by this whole saga, and he kind of

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Speaker 2: there's one moment he looked blankly at me and said,

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Speaker 2: if there's a victim here, it's me. You know, can't

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Speaker 2: he can't see beyond that. He feels there was a

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Speaker 2: conspiracy in Japan to take him down, and everything flowed

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Speaker 2: from that.

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Speaker 1: But but at the same time your documentary and I

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Speaker 1: could be wrong, maybe this is just what I glean

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Speaker 1: from it. There's a whiff of the idea, or even

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Speaker 1: just a slight whiff of the idea that that's certainly possible.

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Speaker 1: Meaning you walk away from watching your program with the

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Speaker 1: idea that the political life and the policies that are

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Speaker 1: enforced by the Japanese government are very often controlled by

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Speaker 1: business itself. Nissan isn't just some company. Nissan, like Sony,

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Speaker 1: is a huge company with tentacles into every corner of

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Speaker 1: the world, and one of the major companies with the

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Speaker 1: Japanese headquarters. And to say that people wanted to derail

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Speaker 1: the Reno Nissan merger is not a foolish idea, correct, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the interesting thing about this series, in this

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Speaker 2: whole story, is that it's not a black and white

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Speaker 2: story of kind of good versus evil. There are lots

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Speaker 2: of kind of contradictory truths, and like, there's no doubt

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Speaker 2: in my mind that there was a conspiracy to take

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Speaker 2: down Carlos Gone. You know, you believe there was a conspiracy.

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Speaker 2: There was absolutely at first. And so Nissan is like,

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Speaker 2: as you say, one of the crown jewels in Japanese industry.

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Speaker 2: The thought of that being, you know, subsumed by a

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Speaker 2: French company Reno was just an insult to Japanese pride,

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Speaker 2: and so they wanted and they realized that Carlos Going,

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Speaker 2: having led them to huge success, saved them from extinction,

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Speaker 2: was now thinking about pulling off this merger, partly because

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Speaker 2: he would do quite well out of it.

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Speaker 1: How was Reno viewed as a car company.

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Speaker 2: I think by the Japanese as you know, a kind

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Speaker 2: of poor relation. You know, they didn't admire French kind

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Speaker 2: of mechanics design. They bought a huge steak in Nissan

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Speaker 2: at a time when Nissan was was about to go bust,

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Speaker 2: so it was a kind of marriage or convenience. But

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Speaker 2: then the idea that they would be fully subsumed by

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Speaker 2: a full alliance was just anathema to them. So there's

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Speaker 2: no doubt in my mind that Nissan and the Japanese

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Speaker 2: justice system decided to take Carlos going down.

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Speaker 1: Eventually is excoriated for paying himself huge amounts of money,

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Speaker 1: and the Japanese were like, listen, no one deserves to

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Speaker 1: be paid that amount of money when you're producing cars.

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Speaker 1: I mean, no one at the head of a company,

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Speaker 1: no matter how successful it is, should be paid this

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Speaker 1: amount of money. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: That's right? And I think it's partly a cultural thing,

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Speaker 2: you know. I think in France extreme wealth is viewed

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Speaker 2: with great suspicion. Likewise in Japan, where you're kind of

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Speaker 2: you know, these companies are kind of hierarchical. You work

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Speaker 2: there for your whole lifetime and incrementally increase your salary.

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Speaker 2: Carlos Gone comes some more of a kind of American

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Speaker 2: business background, where the CEO is rewarded, you know, proportionately

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Speaker 2: with the company's profits. So he thought he was worth,

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Speaker 2: you know, five times what he was getting. He saw

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Speaker 2: himself on a level with Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, all

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Speaker 2: these kind of people. Carlos Gon's problem is that it

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Speaker 2: wasn't Carlos Going Inc. He was working for two companies

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Speaker 2: that had shareholders. He was an employee of these two companies,

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Speaker 2: whereas in his mind he became bigger than these companies

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Speaker 2: and deserved whatever he wanted to take.

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Speaker 1: Now, when you think that gol was framed, you think

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Speaker 1: that he was set up in order again to derail

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Speaker 1: the merger, and the Japanese powers that be wanted to

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Speaker 1: hobble him, if you will. How much was he being

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Speaker 1: paid in those final years and how much was he

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Speaker 1: accused of stealing from the company.

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Speaker 2: So the interesting thing is that he kind of operated

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Speaker 2: in this gray area where he was paid by both

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Speaker 2: companies and he could kind of operate the way he

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Speaker 2: wanted because there wasn't the scrutiny. He surrounded himself with

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Speaker 2: yes men at both companies. He spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: his time, increasingly on a private jet, often flying to

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Speaker 2: places not on business but to kind of enjoy the

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Speaker 2: trappings of his success. But what's interesting is that even

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Speaker 2: though it was a conspiracy at first, they almost then

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Speaker 2: stumbled across evidence of real corruption, you know, so almost

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Speaker 2: by mistake they found on the laptop.

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Speaker 1: On the Nissan side of the Rennao side.

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Speaker 2: So the Nissan lawyers basically went and searched his former

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Speaker 2: lawyer's office in Beirut, discovered a laptop which had a

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Speaker 2: hard drive with all these flows of money which he'd

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Speaker 2: kept secret from Nissan basically to and from Middle Eastern businessmen.

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Speaker 2: And he was writing checks from Nissan and Reno and

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Speaker 2: then through very convoluted means, through shell companies and so on,

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Speaker 2: he was receiving tens of millions of dollars back into

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Speaker 2: his pocket, and he kept that secret. And when we

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Speaker 2: put it to him, he doesn't really have a convincing

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Speaker 2: answer for why, you know, he would be writing these

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Speaker 2: checks and receiving money and keeping it secret from his employees.

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Speaker 2: So that is why he's now wanted not only in

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Speaker 2: Japan from where he escaped, but the French now want

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Speaker 2: to put him on trial for corruption.

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Speaker 1: So I guess what's frustrating and confused for me is

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Speaker 1: that on one hand people maintained that the Japanese government

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Speaker 1: set him up. On the other hand, he stole from

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Speaker 1: both companies. Which is it right?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing, you know, we we pose the

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Speaker 2: question in film four. The title is victim or villain,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't need necessarily need to be either or

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Speaker 2: you know, he can be a victim of a conspiracy

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Speaker 2: who suffered greatly, was in solitary confinement, interrogated without a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: You know, they call the Japanese justice system the hostage

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Speaker 2: justice system because you're effectively kept hostage until you confess.

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Speaker 2: So there's no doubt that he and his family were

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Speaker 2: victims at that point. The problem for him is that

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Speaker 2: they did then stumble across real corruption and the case

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Speaker 2: just became you know, these allegations are much much more serious,

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Speaker 2: and so it's very hard for him to dismiss the

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Speaker 2: label of villain unless he's willing to go and stand

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Speaker 2: trial in France, which he's not. You know, right now,

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Speaker 2: he's a fugitive in Lebanon, and as far as I

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Speaker 2: can see, that's where he's going to spend the rest

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Speaker 2: of us.

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Speaker 1: Director James Jones, and later I'll speak with Mike Taylor himself.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoy conversations with documentary directors uncovering corporate corruption,

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Speaker 1: check out my episode with Alex Gibney, director of Enron,

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Speaker 1: The Smartest Guys in the Room.

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Speaker 3: The ghosts of all my films tend to follow me,

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Speaker 3: and I often keep in touch with sources and interview subjects,

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Speaker 3: and in odd ways they keep coming back to films

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Speaker 3: I make henceforth, so they kind of reverberate. It's a

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Speaker 3: little bit like that moment in Ghostbusters. So they say,

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Speaker 3: don't cross the streams. Well, my streams are constantly getting crossed.

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Speaker 3: It seems like characters from one film are intruding into another.

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Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Alex Gibney, go

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Speaker 1: to Here's Thething dot org. After the break, James Jones

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Speaker 1: shares the intricacies of how Carlos Gon was smuggled out

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Speaker 1: of Japan in a box. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. Former automobile executive Carlos Gon

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Speaker 1: is a fugitive currently living the life of a free

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Speaker 1: man in Lebanon. I was curious to learn that while

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Speaker 1: the Japanese authorities couldn't get their hands on going due

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Speaker 1: to Lebanon's extradition laws, was the money he allegedly laundered recoverable.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean, I think some of

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Speaker 2: his assets in France were frozen. I think some of

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Speaker 2: his assets in the States as well. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I think most of that money that ended up in

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Speaker 2: his pocket was in shell companies arranged from Lebanon, you know,

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Speaker 2: either within Lebanon itself or it in kind of tax

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Speaker 2: havens around the world. So I think Carlos Gohn is

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Speaker 2: still living a pretty comfortable life. He's living in the

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Speaker 2: mansion paid for by Nissan. He's got his super yacht

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Speaker 2: paid for by the you know, the money from the

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Speaker 2: Middle Eastern businessman. So I think the thing that kills

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Speaker 2: him is that his legacy has gone. You know, his

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Speaker 2: reputation will never recover. He's a fugitive. We all know

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Speaker 2: him now as a man who escaped in a box,

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Speaker 2: and that kills him because he would have gone down

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Speaker 2: in you know, the Automotive Hall of Fame as one

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Speaker 2: of the genius businessmen of the twenty first century.

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Speaker 1: So he decides to escape. Now, the tailors, I want

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Speaker 1: you to describe how they come together. I doubt that

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Speaker 1: tailors have a website called We'll put You in a

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Speaker 1: Box and Smuggle You at Lebanon dot com. How did

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Speaker 1: that relationship get forged?

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Speaker 2: So, Mike Taylor is a former Green Beret. He'd served

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Speaker 2: around the world, and then after leaving the military, he'd

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Speaker 2: actually spent some time in Lebanon during the Civil War.

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Speaker 2: There had met his wife, who is Lebanese, who is

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Speaker 2: a kind of distant cousin of Carlos Gohen's wife. So

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Speaker 2: I think Carlos Gohan's wife kind of started putting the

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Speaker 2: word out in Lebanon, saying, you know, Carlos is going

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Speaker 2: to die in a Japanese prison. He's in sology confinement.

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Speaker 2: It's freezing cold. You know, he's not going to, you know,

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Speaker 2: live much longer. I'm never going to properly see him again.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Beirut is like a big village. Everyone knows everyone, and

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Speaker 2: someone said, there's this guy, Mike Taylor, and he's got

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Speaker 2: quite a reputation. He'd helped journalists escape from the Taliban.

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Speaker 2: He'd he had a specialty in kids who are abducted

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Speaker 2: by one parent. He'd go in and get the kid

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Speaker 2: back for the parent who paid him to do it.

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Speaker 2: And so he just had this like amazing reputation. He

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Speaker 2: met Carlos Gohan's wife in Beirut. They talked about a

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Speaker 2: possible plan. But you know, this is not getting someone

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Speaker 2: out of Egypt or something like that.

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Speaker 1: This is Japan.

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Speaker 2: It's an island, a CCTV everywhere going is under house arrest.

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Speaker 2: This is like, you know, for someone like Mike Taylor,

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Speaker 2: this is you know, if you're a mountain climber, it's

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Speaker 2: like climbing Everest or whatever. This is just like the

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Speaker 2: ultimate challenge.

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Speaker 1: Tayl we used to call a soldier of fortune, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: This is a great challenge for him.

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Speaker 2: It's a great challenge, and you know, I'm sure he

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Speaker 2: realizes that at some point it could be quite lucrative,

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Speaker 2: but I think just and also I think on a

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Speaker 2: personal level, he met Carlos Goen's wife and felt great sympathy,

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Speaker 2: felt like there was an injustice, thought the Japanese system

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Speaker 2: was was unfair and cruel, and so he started formulating

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Speaker 2: this plan. And you know, they could have gone by boat,

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Speaker 2: but it was winter, the sea could be choppy, and

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Speaker 2: he thought, let's get him in a Let's get him

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Speaker 2: in a box, take him on a private jet, you know,

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Speaker 2: small airport, not in Tokyo. You know, the security is

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Speaker 2: more lax on private jets. He did a test and

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Speaker 2: saw that they check the luggage going into it into Japan,

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Speaker 2: but not coming out. He made sure the box was

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Speaker 2: too big to fit through the X rays. So he

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Speaker 2: was like, you know, it's a military operation, planning every

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Speaker 2: single detail because he was prepared. He was prepared.

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Speaker 1: But for me, when I'm curious about us, who contacted

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Speaker 1: TA who's working with Gone? That access as tailor?

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Speaker 2: So that I mean basically because Carlos Gone was pretty

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Speaker 2: clear that his phone was tapped, and you know he

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Speaker 2: could tell that because one day he called a newspaper

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Speaker 2: journalist to say, they're a guy standing outside my house

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Speaker 2: and we have evidence that Nissan did use spies to

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Speaker 2: follow him and other people they were kind of going after.

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Speaker 2: And the day after he called the journalist, the spies

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Speaker 2: didn't come to stand outside his house, so he thought, okay,

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Speaker 2: I know they tapped my phone. So he had to

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Speaker 2: get a special burner phone, but was essentially communicating with

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Speaker 2: his wife, who was communicating with Mike Taylor. So his

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Speaker 2: wife was in Lebanon at this time. So she is

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Speaker 2: a fascinating character because she's his second wife. She's kind

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Speaker 2: of beautiful, blonde, charismatic, incredibly warm, and she was kind

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Speaker 2: of associated with Gohon's transformation from this kind of nerdy

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Speaker 2: mister Bean character, yes, to someone who loved lavish parties.

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Speaker 4: And yes, stressed different, dress differently, had hair implant, you know,

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Speaker 4: laser eye surgery, sharp suits, and you know, suddenly was

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Speaker 4: on the red carpet at can you know, this was.

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Speaker 2: Like a totally unknown world. This is red carpet going exactly.

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Speaker 2: So she was seen, I mean, a bimbo is too strong,

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Speaker 2: but certainly someone who enjoyed the finer things in life.

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Speaker 2: But what you saw over the course of this whole

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Speaker 2: saga is that she, first of all, when he was

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Speaker 2: locked up, she went out on the media and kind

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Speaker 2: of almost single handedly changed the world's perception of the

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Speaker 2: Japanese justice system to the point where even a UN

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Speaker 2: body issued a report about hostage justice. You know, the

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Speaker 2: terrible violations of human rights. Now, you might say, Carlos

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Speaker 2: Gohn is an unlikely champion of human rights, but that

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Speaker 2: that's what his wife did. And then she also played

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Speaker 2: this kind of amazing strategic role in pulling off this escape,

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Speaker 2: which she doesn't want to talk about clearly for legal reasons,

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Speaker 2: but you know, it's quite clear that she was pulling

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Speaker 2: the string. But she now within Lebanon is kind of

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Speaker 2: celebrated as this power behind the throne who pulled off

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Speaker 2: this amazing plot. Obviously gone was the man who was

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Speaker 2: brave enough to actually lie down inside this box in

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Speaker 2: the dark and just pray that he made it to Lebanon.

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Speaker 2: But I think, you know, I think that's interesting about

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Speaker 2: his own psychology, right. I mean, he's a man who

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Speaker 2: is willing to take these incredibly high pressure decisions, and

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Speaker 2: he can seem almost quite robotic sometimes. So he just

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Speaker 2: weighed up the kind of cost benefit and the risk

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Speaker 2: of getting in that box and risking everything, and he

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Speaker 2: thought it's worth it, because otherwise, you know, I die

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Speaker 2: in prison in Japan.

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Speaker 1: So the Tailors are arrested. There is an extradition treaty

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Speaker 1: and some kind of legal arrangements between the United States

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Speaker 1: government and the Japanese government and the Tailors are arrested

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Speaker 1: in the US first, correct, right at the behest of

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Speaker 1: the Japanese government. Absolutely yeah, and always make no attempt

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Speaker 1: to flee that prosecution.

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Speaker 2: No. I mean, the Tailors could have laid low in

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00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: Lebanon like Carlos Gone, and you know, enjoyed the fruits

433
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 2: of their amazingly successful escape, but they wanted to go

434
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 2: back to the States. They didn't want to hide away.

435
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 2: I think deep down they thought it wasn't such a

436
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,199
Speaker 2: serious crime, and you know, the States wouldn't give up

437
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: their own citizens, let alone a kind of war hero.

438
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: But they underestimated how mad the Japanese were. I think,

439
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: you know, this was a national humiliation to lose its

440
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: most famous prisoner, who pops up in Lebanon and gives

441
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 2: a press conference, you know, slamming the Japanese justice system.

442
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 2: So I think they were so determined to get the

443
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: Tailor's back because they knew they'd never get Carlos Gone.

444
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: They are extrad added to Japan and they serve how

445
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: much time in Japan?

446
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: So they served nearly two years, and it was brutal, correct,

447
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: it was brutal. I mean it was like you know,

448
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: solitary confinement, freezing cold cells. Mike Taylor is not a

449
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 2: young man. You know, he came out of prison, you know,

450
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 2: incredibly gaunt and sick. He looked about thirty years older

451
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: than he really is. They told us these stories that

452
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: they'd be forced to they'd be given a big piece

453
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: of cardboard and they'd have to rip it into smaller

454
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: and smaller pieces. Yes, and I think the prison system

455
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: would say that was entertainment, that was to you know,

456
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: stop them being bored. But you know, Mike Taylor said

457
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 2: that his fingers were like painful, and it was like,

458
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 2: you know, sounds to me more like torture rather than entertainment.

459
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 2: So they certainly had an even harder time than Carlos

460
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 2: going in prison. And you know, I think for Mike Taylor,

461
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 2: the thing that was even more painful than the kind

462
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: of physical discomfort and hardship was that he'd involved his son.

463
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: And his son is not a kind of hardened war veteran.

464
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: He's a you know, young guy in his twenties who

465
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 2: probably completely adores his dad, has always wanted to emulate

466
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 2: his dad. So the chance to be part, even a

467
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: small part of his most outlandish plot was probably just

468
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: too exciting to turn down, but then no one would

469
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: have ever thought that he'd end up spending you know,

470
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 2: years in a Japanese prison as well.

471
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: And in the program Gone, I believe in one of

472
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: your sitdowns with him, he's quoted as saying something along

473
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: the lines of everybody knew.

474
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: The risks they were taking, yeah.

475
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: And so Gone does not have a lot of sympathy

476
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: or empathy for the tailors.

477
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 2: I was genuinely surprised how little he had.

478
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: Beg insight into Gone that comment. Real incided to go God.

479
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: Like I said, Goan's about gone totally, and he uses

480
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: people to get what he wants and to move along

481
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: the game board as he desires. And then he doesn't

482
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: really when he does somebody use for you anymore. It

483
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: seems like he just forgets about you. One thing that

484
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: I was confused about was what was the fee that

485
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: the tailors were told they would be paid for the

486
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: escape just the escape itself.

487
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 2: So they were given expenses ahead of the escape, which

488
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 2: was I think one point three million dollars, which was

489
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: just to cover private planes, you know, a reki, the

490
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 2: pilots or you know all those but you know, and

491
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 2: probably a bit for yourself as well. But Mike had

492
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: always said, after the fact, we will we'll talk money.

493
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 2: You know, the priority is getting you out after we

494
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 2: do it. And I think they did come to an

495
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: arrangement afterwards for some money in the in the low millions.

496
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: But then Mike and his son spent years in Japanese

497
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: prison and say they've got kind of a million dollars

498
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: of legal fees, which Goane had assured them he would pay,

499
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: and to date has he paid. He's paid them a

500
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: tiny fraction of that.

501
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: Is it difficult for them to take Goan's money? Is

502
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: that the legal issue?

503
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 2: Well, they can't touch him. I think, you know, Mike

504
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 2: has gone to Lebanon to meet Going and kind of

505
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: appeal to his decency exactly. You know, it's like, I

506
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 2: saved your life, unique brand of decency when Gone got

507
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: out of the box on the private jet and he

508
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: said to Mike Taylor, you know you saved my life,

509
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: And he really did. Like if it wasn't for Mike Taylor,

510
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: Carlos Gohen would still be in a Japanese prison and

511
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: Mike Taylor would have just been living a free man

512
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: in Massachusetts.

513
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: Where is Taylor now?

514
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: He's back home in Massachusetts and where's his son? His

515
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: son is in Dubai kind of starting out various businesses.

516
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: I think is.

517
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: Taylor willing to talk about what happened or is he

518
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: better off not talking about what happened. I mean, he

519
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: served his time.

520
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: He served his time. You know, he gave us his

521
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: first interview and Peter Taylor and you know, he kind

522
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: of trusted we were doing it right. He didn't want

523
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: it just to be the Carlos Goon show as well.

524
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: But I think he knows now because he has spoken

525
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: out about feeling let down by going and you know,

526
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: the legal fees not being paid. I think he recognizes

527
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: that that relationship is over. He's not going to receive

528
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: a pennymore.

529
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: Right now, when you're sitting down and doing the one

530
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: on ones with Gone, you did them in Lebanon. Correct? Yeah,

531
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: I'm assuming you did hours and hours of interviews with him,

532
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: correct or limited.

533
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: He's he's an impatient guy. But as long as you're

534
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: on top topics he likes talking about. He'll give you

535
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: all day. It's when you start asking the tough questions

536
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: he suddenly starts looking at his watch.

537
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: You know, ah, did you ask the tough questions? We

538
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: did yeah.

539
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we asked about the omar and allegations. We

540
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: also asked, you know, his his dad was a convicted

541
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: murderer priest.

542
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: That's amazing part of the story.

543
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: And you know, as his wife said, you know, Gon

544
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: basically just shut down that whole topic. You know, he

545
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: was a kid, his father was accused of killing a priest,

546
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: was sentenced to death. Goan was kind of six years old.

547
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: It must have been incredibly traumatic and formative. But it's

548
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: a secret. You know, no one talks about it. It's

549
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: kind of known about Lebanon, but had never been reported.

550
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: Goan had always refused to talk about it. But what

551
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: was so interesting is that his wife, Carol said, his

552
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: whole life has been trying to prove to his dad

553
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: that he's not his dad. And then you think, my god,

554
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: he's tried to prove that he's not a criminal like

555
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: his dad, but he's ended up breaking the law, you know,

556
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: now a fugitive in Lebanon. It's just like kind of

557
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: come full circle. So I thought that was just so

558
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: revealing of his mentality and drive.

559
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: When you should something like this, it's presumed that there's

560
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff you leave out that you might

561
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: have wished you had left in Was that the case?

562
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 2: I think almost everything is in there. There were a

563
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: few people who knew Gon very well, who would only

564
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: speak to us on background, but who gave us the

565
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: idea of him as a narcissist, and you know, helped

566
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 2: us understand his psychology to kind of join the dots

567
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: of the facts we had. For instance, we had the

568
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: contents of his mobile phone when he was arrested and

569
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: he was like totting up his personal wealth, and there

570
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: was the final note was and if I pull off

571
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: this merger, I'll become a billionaire. And so like we

572
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: had insights like that to him. But there are a

573
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: few people who had been very close to him for

574
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: a number of years that we would have liked to

575
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: go on camera. But in terms of the key players

576
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: like having gone and his wife and then the tailors,

577
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 2: those are the key players who who we just needed

578
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: to have to make it feel like we're telling the

579
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 2: full story.

580
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: Were you commissioned to do this? Did Apple commission you?

581
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: Or this was your pro Apple commissioned it? Yet? God,

582
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: And if we go down your filmography, Dispatches, Panorama, This World,

583
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: the Frontline episodes, Children of guys are more than a

584
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: few of them commissions or you like commissions.

585
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a mixture. I mean the last film I

586
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: did before this was about Chernobyl, and that was my

587
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: idea that we then took to Sky and HBO. I'm

588
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: working on a Russia film now that's independently funded that

589
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: we will hope to premiere at film festivals and then,

590
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: and that's been actually great working in a different way.

591
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: So you're not necessary boroughly answering straight to a broadcast

592
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: or streamer. I think streamers are more prescriptive probably than

593
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: traditional broadcasters, right. I think I've been lucky solec Chernobyl.

594
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: It was a very clear concept of like telling the

595
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: story entirely through archive, a lot of it unseen, and

596
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: you know, I think you just try and make sure

597
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: that you accept the commission from people who buy into

598
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: that vision. So I've never had a situation where someone

599
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: has wanted the film to be something completely different.

600
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: So pretty much get that sorted at upfront.

601
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

602
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: You guys both want the same thing, exactly, So I've

603
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: never felt arguments about what stays in and what's gets

604
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: cut out.

605
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: It'll be Yeah, you get minor notes, but I think

606
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: like maybe, unlike with a movie where you have like

607
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: studio execs, you know, demanding major changes, I think from

608
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: the whole a doc director, at least in my experience,

609
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: you feel like it's always your own and you might

610
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: have to compromise on a couple of things, but it's

611
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: your vision that they're buying into. But maybe I've just

612
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: been lucky.

613
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: Now does go and roam the streets of Lebanon of

614
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: be rude or where have you? Freely? Does he have

615
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: to mask himself? Because the guy that gets put in

616
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: a box in Japan and sent to Lebanon could justice

617
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: easily be kidnapped, put in a box and shipped to

618
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: Japan and go you know, round trip if you will.

619
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: I mean, and we know who might put him in

620
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: the box and take him back. Right there's a guy

621
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: who's got a who's probably seeking revenge right now. But yeah,

622
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: he drives around with heavy security. You know, he has

623
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: armed guards. He's very careful about the way he travels.

624
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: And you know, Lebanon, it's not just about being sent

625
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: back to Japan. But Lebanon is a very unstable place.

626
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: So although it's you know, beautiful country, great food, good beaches.

627
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,959
Speaker 2: You know, you can walk in the mountains. You know,

628
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: Hezbolaar is one of the largest parties, and that you know,

629
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: it feels like it's constantly on the brink of economic collapse,

630
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: civil war. So he's trapped in a place that for

631
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: a man who's accustomed to flying the world on private

632
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: jets and living, you know, the life of ultimate freedom,

633
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 2: he's constrained. He's constrained and you know, who knows what

634
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: Lebanon will look like in five years.

635
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: Where's Kelly now?

636
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 2: Kelly's back home in Nashville. So Kelly was his kind

637
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 2: of right hand man, the man who was kind of

638
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: tasked with keeping going at the company. As he said,

639
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: Goan was like the Michael Jordan of the car industry,

640
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: and it was my job to make sure he didn't

641
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: go anywhere.

642
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: His story in the show is painful because you really

643
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: see him suffer. Right, you know, the tailors committed a crime.

644
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: The tailors, although their hearts were in the right place,

645
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: they were mercenaries. They took money, They committed a crime.

646
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: Goan is probably guilty of some of what they're saying.

647
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: He is at least, oh they should pay. At least

648
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: it appears that way, at least a layman would would

649
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: say that. But Kelly seems like the one person of

650
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: the project was purely innocent. Yeah, he didn't deserve any

651
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: of what happened to him.

652
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And they tricked him into coming over to Japan

653
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: knowing that he needed back surgery. He was in agony,

654
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: so he had this incredibly long flight. They assumed that

655
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: he would just be desperate to go home. When they

656
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 2: confronted him with these charges, he'd sign whatever they wanted

657
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: and he'd throw going under the bus.

658
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: I can't believe you've got on the plane. I know,

659
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: why did he go? Who's his lawyer? I know?

660
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 2: I know, Well, there is there is one person in

661
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 2: particular who was like Greg Kelly's protege, who is the

662
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 2: one who called him back, who he trusted mistakenly, and

663
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: you know they underestimated Greg Kelly. He was just like, well,

664
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: these charges aren't true. I can't possibly sign this, And

665
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: he ended up spending three years of his life stuck

666
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: in Japan.

667
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: What are you working on now?

668
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: So it's a film about Russian assassinations, which is we're

669
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: submitting to festivals for next year. But he finished, we're

670
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: getting close to the end, but it feels like we're

671
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 2: living no. So we're gonna hopefully premiere a festival early

672
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: next year and then take it from there.

673
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: So when this is over, when you're done with Carlos, goon,

674
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: guys getting stuffed in boxes, Russian assassinations, I'm assuming the

675
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: project you're doing next is something like the History of Candy.

676
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: That would be lovely.

677
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: My Thanks to documentary filmmaker James Jones, I recently had

678
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: the opportunity to speak with Michael Taylor, the former Green

679
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: Beret that kept Carlos going from rotting in a Japanese prison,

680
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: but then ended up serving time there himself for his

681
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: role in the escape. Taylor's background linked up perfectly for

682
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: the job. He trained with the Army Special Forces and

683
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: became a Green Beret. After his time in the service,

684
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: Taylor worked with the FBI and atf and as a

685
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 1: private security contractor, providing risk assessments and going on rescue missions.

686
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to hear from Taylor what it takes to

687
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: become an elite soldier in the military.

688
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 5: You're going to be very strong mentally, and there's a

689
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 5: bit of cockiness that goes along with it, you know.

690
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 5: I was talking to a major that worked with my dad.

691
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 5: My dad would as a career soldier as well. And

692
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 5: a major that worked with my dad who was rifted

693
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 5: and then became my recruiter, and he was telling me,

694
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 5: you know, you're going to join special Forces.

695
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: You're going to do well.

696
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 5: You're going to have to push yourself because everybody doesn't

697
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 5: make it, he says. And it takes a bit of

698
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 5: hackingness to make it, he says. And nothing wrong with that,

699
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 5: just you know, be humble about it. But it does

700
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 5: take some self confidence to step on a ramp of

701
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 5: a C one or a C five a galaxy at

702
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 5: forty one thousand feet at night, where you see the

703
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 5: curvature of the earth and you're going to step off

704
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 5: into a foreign country you've never been before. So it

705
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 5: does take a little bit of self confidence.

706
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I'm assuming you did not know who Gone

707
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: was before you were engaged in all this activity. You

708
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: didn't know him, That's correct, I did not. You never

709
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: knew him, So who reaches out to you?

710
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 5: Well, it's it's interesting. There were two couples in Beirut

711
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 5: that were having dinner one night. One of the ladies,

712
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 5: I guess the subject came up about Carlos being stuck

713
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 5: over there and needed they needed to rescue him. But

714
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 5: it's just a monumental task. It's just impossible to get done.

715
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 5: And one of the ladies there that I happened to know, said, well,

716
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 5: if my husband was over there, the guy i'd called

717
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 5: me Mike Taylor. I didn't know this until, you know,

718
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 5: a year later or so, and the couple says, oh,

719
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 5: I know him. He helped me out in Iraq once

720
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 5: because this guy sells insurance and he needed to get

721
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 5: into the green zone over there, so I helped him

722
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 5: out as a friend of a friend. So he's the

723
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 5: one that called me and said, hey, we've got this situation.

724
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 5: We need a guy to get him out of a place.

725
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 5: And he didn't give me any details, and I said, well,

726
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 5: you know, I got a brown dog.

727
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: How big is the dog?

728
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 5: You know what kind of dog is? I need a

729
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 5: little more detail than that. You know, can I get

730
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 5: the guy out more than likely? Yes, that's that self confidence,

731
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 5: but I need some details. And finally he gave me

732
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 5: some details. I met up with him a couple weeks later,

733
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 5: I think we met in Beirut and he told me

734
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 5: he's over in Japan and this is what happened. So

735
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 5: of course I got on the internet and started researching it,

736
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 5: making some calls, and that's how I first found out.

737
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: Now, when you meet these people over there, are you

738
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: in and out of Are you in and out of

739
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 1: Lebanon on a regular basis? No, but you just had contact.

740
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: But I can go over there, yeah, yeah, and so

741
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: and so. When you find that funny that your name

742
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: is on the lips of every woman in the Middle

743
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: East whose husband has been wrongly imprisoned in their mind

744
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: or been kidnapped, I think that's really funny. Well, you

745
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: know the guy that got my husband out of the

746
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: box at the airport they were going to kidnap him

747
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: is Mike Taylor. Mike Taylor. It's funny that you're.

748
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 5: But to go to what happened before. When I was

749
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 5: driving here from Boston, I was looked at the George

750
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 5: Washington Bridge, and it was back in probably ninety two ish,

751
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 5: where I was doing a vulnerability assessment for Port Authority

752
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 5: of New York and New Jersey after the World Trade

753
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 5: Center bombing. I was on top of the New Jersey

754
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 5: support structure on top of the George Washington Bridge when

755
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 5: I got a call from the FBI saying, hey, we

756
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 5: need some help. We got an American child who was

757
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 5: kidnapped taking the Bay route. Of course them all in

758
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 5: give me details, feed me. He said, the mother is

759
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 5: going to call you in a few minutes. The mother's

760
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 5: in Cyprus. So we got involved. At the requests of

761
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 5: the Bureau and the mother, we got the child back,

762
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 5: an American citizen back here. We had them back in

763
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 5: probably ten days so, and there were many stories like that.

764
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 5: So that's that's what some of the history.

765
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: That's why that.

766
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 5: Lady happened to mention of my husband, you know, kidnapped

767
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 5: the guy I'm calling it's Mike Taylor.

768
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: After that dinner, what happens.

769
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 5: I went over and met with him. He introduced me

770
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 5: to Carol, Carlos's wife, and that's where I got, you know,

771
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 5: the intel dumb. All the information came and they gave

772
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 5: me all the details. And one of the things that

773
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 5: really struck me and hit me in a heart hard

774
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 5: about this was part of his bail condition was he's

775
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 5: not allowed to talk to his wife.

776
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: What I learned in the documentary that Japanese system was

777
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 1: pretty brutal.

778
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 5: I was shocked about that. I didn't think that the

779
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 5: Japanese were that bad, and I've never heard anything like

780
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 5: that before. Part of your bail, you can't talk to

781
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 5: your wife, you can't see her, and you can't talk

782
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 5: to her.

783
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: Who does that?

784
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 5: What civilized nation does that?

785
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: So when you have prior knowledge of the way this

786
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: is going to work, the box and this and the this,

787
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: you're calling the shots, meaning I'm going to do this

788
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: airport because I think this is the best opportunity for us.

789
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, first of all, there's not a lot of private

790
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 5: planes that fly in and out of Japan, really, so

791
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 5: it can't take him in out of Tokyo because he's

792
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 5: too well known. He walks down the street and he'll

793
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 5: have a whole bunch of people with him wanting to

794
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 5: autograph and talk to him, so on and so forth.

795
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 5: So we had to find another way out. So I

796
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 5: looked at Osaka. Osaka had a new VIP terminal private

797
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 5: airport that had just opened with the commercial airport. Private

798
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 5: airport's on one side, commercials on the other. And I

799
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 5: did the research on it and found out they only

800
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 5: do security checks on the way in, nothing on the

801
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 5: way out. You need to know your enemy, very very important.

802
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 5: I need to know how the Japanese think. They're very robotic.

803
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 5: Everything's sop, nothing's outside the lines. They don't have people

804
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,959
Speaker 5: like us. You know, you put one Japanese person there

805
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 5: and tell him to lead something, he's going to be lost.

806
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 5: You put ten of them together, they'll get anything done. Really,

807
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 5: as long as they have all the same mission. Tell

808
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 5: them what the mission is, they'll get it done. But

809
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 5: you got to put parameters up for him. So I

810
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 5: know they're not going to weigh the box. I know

811
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 5: they're not going to do anything to the box. So

812
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 5: the security is only checked on the way in, not

813
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 5: the way out. And I made the box too big

814
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 5: for their X ray machine anyway, so it won't go through. Yeah,

815
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 5: and they seem to think which I got from. You know,

816
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 5: I did this on purpose. But the prosecutor was telling

817
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 5: me when he was trying to interview me that, you know,

818
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 5: you said you were musicians. I said, that's absolutely not true.

819
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 5: I never said we're musicians. You people thought we're musicians

820
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 5: because there was a guitar case on top of the

821
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 5: music box, so that's why. And he was pretty embarrassed

822
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 5: about that. They get embarrassed about things like that.

823
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: But did you what did you tell them? Did you

824
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: tell them me you were like a film crew. No,

825
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: the equipment is their anything.

826
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 5: To tell the care Look, we're coming in on a

827
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 5: private plane a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for

828
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 5: a leg to go there.

829
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: I don't need to tell you anything. It's filled with

830
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: suntry whiskey. Yeah.

831
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I knew based on studying them that they're only

832
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 5: going to check the security in a way and not

833
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 5: the way out.

834
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: So what I did.

835
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,439
Speaker 5: I put some sub wolfers in the big box when

836
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 5: they took it off the plane, so there was some

837
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 5: weight in it. And then I had another smaller box

838
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 5: about half that size that wouldn't fit in the cargo

839
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 5: hole because it wasn't big enough, so we put it

840
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 5: in a cabin. And then I had the guitar case.

841
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: What was in the smaller box, nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing.

842
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: Now when you pull this off, when this happens, you

843
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: get him into the plane, into the box, loaded the

844
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: box of the plane, you take off. I'm assuming, oh,

845
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: there's a bit of a relay here from Japan to Turkey,

846
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: Turkey to Lebanon to beab Root. Do you accompany him

847
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: the entire way, or you're done in Japan. The plane

848
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: takes off and you deliver him door to door.

849
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 5: I was on the plane right and in fact, the

850
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 5: Japanese ground crew from the VIP terminal couldn't lift the box.

851
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 5: So I had to help them lift the box from

852
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 5: my hotel where I put him in the box, rolled

853
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 5: them down in the elevator downstairs to the lobby. I

854
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 5: had to have six Japanese on one side. I'm on

855
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 5: the other side. Put him in the van. Then we

856
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 5: got to the airport, which is only a ten minute ride,

857
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 5: not even a ten minute ride. I have to help

858
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 5: take him out. Then there's wheels they can roll it

859
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 5: up to the conveyor belt. The conveyor belt they put

860
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 5: it on there and the conveyor belts about three feet

861
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 5: away from the cargo hole.

862
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 1: The door of the cargo hole, there's a gap there and.

863
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 5: I see it as I walk up, and I say,

864
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 5: oh boy, that's a problem. There's a Japanese guy, he's

865
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 5: maybe five foot tall, one hundred and twenty pounds inside

866
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 5: the cargo hole trying to lift that one end.

867
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: Of the box.

868
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: I say, hey, buddy, step out.

869
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 5: Let me go in there that jumps in big guys

870
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 5: about six to one, two twenty. I said, no, no, no, no,

871
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 5: I don't need you hurt in your back.

872
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: Get out of here. I'll do this.

873
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 5: He got and I there's like six or seven Japanese

874
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 5: on the back end pushing it up, and I yank

875
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 5: it into the airplane into the cargo hole over the crack,

876
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 5: over that three foot crack.

877
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was elect feet three feet yeah.

878
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 5: And it was crooked too, it was. It wasn't at

879
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 5: a straight angle. So we got it in no problem

880
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 5: because the box was probably closer to four feet long,

881
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 5: so we had some space there to play with. And

882
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 5: I had a centimeter all around on the box shorter,

883
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 5: smaller than the cargo hole. So I knew it fit

884
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 5: because I knew what the dimension of the cargo hole was.

885
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: What does have inside the box while he's being anywhere?

886
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 5: Just no, we don't need any water. He's only there

887
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 5: for about thirty or forty minutes.

888
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: Oh that's really so I threw a bed sheet on him.

889
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: And was he a good candidate for smuggling? Did he

890
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: turn out to? It was very good? Made no sounds

891
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: because he had a risk, he had a risk.

892
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 5: You know, he's he's gonna die in Japan in a jail.

893
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 5: They'll put him in there for fifteen twenty years. He

894
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 5: ain't getting out. So he was a very good candidate

895
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 5: for it, and he did a great job. He did

896
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 5: exactly what I asked him to do.

897
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you get him on the plane, you take off.

898
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: How soon after the plane takes off, does go and

899
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: get out of the box.

900
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 5: Well, what happened was soon as we shut the door

901
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 5: to the cargo hole, I had to pilot check it

902
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 5: make sure that was right. They shut the passenger door,

903
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 5: planes buttoned up, I opened the box and I tell

904
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 5: him sit tight for a few minutes. When wheels up,

905
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 5: i'll pull you out. And I take a big dish

906
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 5: rag a bath towel from the bathroom because the cargo

907
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 5: holes on the back of the airplane, then the bathroom

908
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 5: and then the cabin area. So I take the bath

909
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 5: towel from the bathroom and I set it in between

910
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 5: the box lid and the box itself so there's more ventilation,

911
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 5: and sit tight. We wheels up, I'll pull you out.

912
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 5: So we got wheels up, which we were late. You know,

913
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 5: I asked for an earlier departure at ten thirty. Of course,

914
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 5: the Japanese very sop. Your original plan was eleven o'clock,

915
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 5: you gotta wait till eleven. So it was eleven o'clock.

916
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 5: We weren't allowed to take off until then, which we did.

917
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 5: But I went back in and found him sitting on

918
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 5: top of the box Indian style with a big smile

919
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 5: on his face. Said okay, come on out. You can

920
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 5: come into the main cabin now, and we had some

921
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 5: champagne and gave him some salad, some food and eat

922
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 5: before he was talking a mile a minute because he

923
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 5: wasn't able to talk to the media. He wasn't able

924
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 5: to he was talking to his wife on a back

925
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 5: channel phone.

926
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: No, no, no waiting for him. Yeah, so you go

927
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: to the flight from Japan to Turkey as how long

928
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: with ruffly nine hours? Not too bad. No, then you

929
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: get off that plane and you go right away.

930
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 5: So I did what I did, is I flew over

931
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 5: a Russian airspace just in case we had a mechanical problem.

932
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 5: I don't want to fly in another country because Russians

933
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 5: we can do business with, so they won't grab them

934
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 5: return them to Japan. So I made sure the flight

935
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 5: pan was over Russian We landed in Istanbul Istanbul. The

936
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 5: plane it so we land about four in the morning,

937
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 5: draining dark.

938
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: Great.

939
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 5: Perfect, that's just what we want. I have another plane,

940
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 5: smaller plane on standby for him. Put him on a

941
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 5: smaller plane. Off he goes into Bay Route. Me and

942
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 5: my buddy, we go to the commercial airport, get our visas,

943
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 5: go to the commercial airport and catch a commercial plane

944
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 5: in I don't want to land in Beirut. Have our

945
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 5: names together, because my name will draw attension and his

946
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 5: name will draw attension, and they'll know right away.

947
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 1: That's why I did that. And then where does he go?

948
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: He went home?

949
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 5: His wife met him at the airport, and of course

950
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 5: they're u fork. That was on the thirtieth of January

951
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 5: twenty nineteen.

952
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: And he ever paid it.

953
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 5: No, he did pay some. I don't want to get

954
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 5: into all the details, but he did pay some. But

955
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 5: you know, for my legal fees afterwards, at a pocket

956
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 5: expense was eight hundred and forty two thousand dollars. Lawyers

957
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 5: are expensive, especially international camo. Yeah that but international case,

958
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 5: and what are you gonna do? You have no choice?

959
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 5: And I had some amazing lawyers, but we got traded

960
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 5: by Trump. How so they cut a deal? Who did

961
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 5: Trump and Shinzo Abi, the Prime Minister of Japan. We

962
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 5: understand that it was done over you just radar deal.

963
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 5: So many legal scholars still today say bill jump is

964
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 5: not a crime in Japan. A lot of Americans don't

965
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 5: realize that bill jumping is not a crime in Japan.

966
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 5: And aiding and embedding somebody it's something. Who's jump bail

967
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 5: is not a crime, is not a crime. So what

968
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 5: they did they charged us with harboring, But nobody has

969
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 5: ever been charged with harboring unless police are actively looking

970
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 5: for him. Like you hit somebody in your house, or

971
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 5: you hit somebody in the car when the police come

972
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 5: and knock.

973
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: On the door, that's harboring.

974
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 5: So it's political and we got sold by Trump and Pompeo.

975
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 5: That's the bottom line. So anytime Trump starts talking about, oh,

976
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 5: I protect vets, that's all bullshit. He doesn't protect vets

977
00:49:58,480 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 5: at all.

978
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: But when you go, you are sent there to go

979
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: on trial there. You're not tried in the United States

980
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: or tried over there.

981
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 5: We didn't go on trial because we don't want to

982
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 5: wait three and a half years in solitary confinement to

983
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 5: go to trial. I went right away, you know that.

984
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 5: The night we got there, I said, look, I'm pleading guilty.

985
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 5: I said, okay, we want to know everything. I'm not

986
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 5: telling you everything, but I'm pleading guilty. What more do

987
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 5: you want?

988
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: And did they tell you? Did you we aware? I mean,

989
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: obviously if it's a bit of a dealing here that

990
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: you were only going to do a year that was

991
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 1: part of the agreement. No, that was never part of

992
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 1: the agreement. What was the what term were you facing?

993
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 1: Thirty six months and that's what you did? No? No, no,

994
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: we did.

995
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 5: First of all, we did ten months in a county

996
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 5: jail waiting to go because they detained in Norfolk. Yeah,

997
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 5: Norfolk County and Denham, Massachusetts. And then after that we

998
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 5: get transferred. We said, look, we've exhausted all of our

999
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 5: appellate issues and every court mechanism available. The judge Tilwane

1000
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 5: asked the state Department, can you give me a document,

1001
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 5: a sworn statements saying they won't be tortured the tailors

1002
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,879
Speaker 5: won't be tortured if we send them to Japan. Of course,

1003
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 5: of course they gave them the sworn document, but they

1004
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 5: also know on the State Department's website. There's talk about

1005
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 5: Japanese prisons, torture and people the same website. So come on, guys,

1006
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 5: it's all bullshit.

1007
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: So I wasn't a fair question to ask you? Were

1008
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: you tortured?

1009
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 2: Oh?

1010
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, of course I was tortured absolutely for.

1011
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: What for what? Just just for retribution or they wanted

1012
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: information from you about.

1013
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 5: No no, no no, no no no no, just that's how

1014
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 5: they do. They were aliating, they were humiliating. I spent

1015
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 5: seventeen months in solitary confinement. Now, when I say solitary

1016
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 5: confinement in Japan, it's not like in the US where

1017
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 5: you get out for an hour a day. That door

1018
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 5: didn't open. You get people that you see three times

1019
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 5: a day, and that's a guard bringing your food. You

1020
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:49,760
Speaker 5: don't speak to anybody.

1021
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: There's no speaking, nor no outdoor activity.

1022
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 5: Absolutely not. When I came back, I had to get

1023
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 5: vitamin D injections twice a week because my vitamin D

1024
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 5: was so bad.

1025
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: Former Green Beret Mike Taylor. If you're enjoying this conversation,

1026
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sort of follow here's the

1027
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get

1028
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: your podcasts. When We Come Back, Mike Taylor describes the

1029
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 1: conditions of solitary confinement within the Japanese prison system. I'm

1030
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. Former

1031
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: CEO Carlos Gon was sprung from house arrest in Japan

1032
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: by the herculean efforts of former Special Forces soldier Mike Taylor.

1033
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: Yet while gone walks free, Mike Taylor and his son

1034
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: Peter served hard time in unimaginable conditions.

1035
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 5: I was sentenced with thirty months. He was sentenced with

1036
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 5: twenty four months.

1037
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: He got out after how long we got.

1038
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 5: Out at the same time time when we came back

1039
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 5: to the States. He got out quicker than me.

1040
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: And in this solitary confinement tableau that you've created, you

1041
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: never got to see your son once.

1042
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 5: So no, no, no, soon as you Japanese took custody

1043
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 5: of us, we didn't see each other. We weren't allowed

1044
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 5: to see each other.

1045
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, they had the tearing paper thing.

1046
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I had blisters on your fingers and I

1047
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 5: just kept doing it. And you can't lean against the wall.

1048
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 5: You're sleeping on the floor the whole time. There's no heat,

1049
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 5: so you get frost white every day during the winter

1050
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,439
Speaker 5: time on your hands and your feet. You're not allowed

1051
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 5: to use a blanket until like nine at night. And summertime,

1052
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 5: it's just the opposite. People are, you know, dropping because

1053
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 5: of dehydration and you haven't suicides like every four days.

1054
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 5: There seventeen months in solitary confinement. That door did not

1055
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 5: open and I didn't have a shower for six and

1056
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 5: a half months. After six and a half months, they

1057
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 5: gave me a little bucket of water and said you

1058
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 5: can shower with this.

1059
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: It just sounds like unimaginable. But when you do get

1060
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: out and you're free, he hasn't paid you all the money,

1061
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: And I'm just I mean, obviously you're a man with

1062
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: a code and you have your honor and everything, and

1063
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 1: for me, I'm like, here, you save this guy's fucking life. Yeah.

1064
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 5: One of the things that's important that a lot of

1065
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 5: people don't know and gets miscommunicated is I'd never ask

1066
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 5: for money up front. This wasn't done for money. Do

1067
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 5: I want to be paid, absolutely, but that was never

1068
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 5: talked about beforehand. Carlos told his wife and told my son,

1069
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 5: your dad got me over the barrel right now. When

1070
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 5: he was in Japan. He can charge me twenty five

1071
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 5: million dollars and I have to pay it. Right to me,

1072
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 5: that was insulting because I told his wife, I said,

1073
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 5: shame on you, shame on him. I've never asked you

1074
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 5: for a dollar. The only money that we've taken was

1075
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 5: for expenses, and we had to make many trips back

1076
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 5: and forth to Japan and doing a lot of risks.

1077
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: Consider your legal fees further expenses.

1078
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 5: That was after the fact. I'm just talking operationally now.

1079
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 5: So I never asked you for any money. Could I

1080
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 5: have I said, yeah, I could have said, yeah, put

1081
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 5: twelve million up in escrow. Otherwise I'm not helping you.

1082
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 5: I didn't do that. I did it on being a

1083
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 5: good guy and being honorable.

1084
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: You thought it was right. Yeah, So when you get

1085
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: out in Japan, twenty months in the prison and frostbite

1086
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: and there's no showers and all of us insanity, what

1087
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 1: happens then, when's the first time you lads and your.

1088
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 5: Son, oh that was in the airport in Japan, were

1089
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 5: about to leave. Yeah, we were in the terminal in

1090
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 5: Japan and they brought him because he was in a

1091
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 5: different prison and I was in the so called the

1092
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 5: hard prison, which is great. If you got to do it,

1093
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 5: let's do it that way. But we got to Japan

1094
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 5: and then the guys from the Bureau of Prisons, there

1095
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 5: was three of them, Japanese, no Americans, from American Bureau

1096
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 5: of Prisons. They came over to escort us back. First

1097
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 5: of all, they told the Japanese they signed for us.

1098
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 5: They took all the change office because they had us

1099
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 5: chained up, like you know, Charles Manson, They took all

1100
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 5: the change off and says, you don't need any change.

1101
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 5: You guys are good to go. I said, can I

1102
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 5: see my son? He's absolutely. He brought Peter in and

1103
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 5: we got the hug and it was emotional and feel

1104
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 5: like it would be wow.

1105
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: Once you get transported by a Bureau of Prisons people

1106
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: from Japan to the United States, you're free from the

1107
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: Japanese facility and you go home. You didn't have to

1108
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: serve another day of time anywhere.

1109
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:14,919
Speaker 5: They know what happened to us. We flew us back

1110
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 5: to Los Angeles to the federal holding place.

1111
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: You were there for how long?

1112
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 5: About three weeks? Peter got out within a couple of

1113
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 5: days because he only had a twenty four month sentence

1114
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 5: and the ten months, and he had already served twenty months.

1115
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 5: We both served twenty months in Japan, and we both

1116
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 5: served ten months in Detum, so he was already he

1117
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 5: served more than a sentence of twenty four months. He

1118
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 5: served thirty months.

1119
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 1: But when you get out, when you you were finally

1120
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 1: you go to the place in La it's kind of

1121
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: an eat intermediate place and then you get out and

1122
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 1: you're done. You never have to go into a facility, nothing,

1123
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: no court, no court rooms, trials, no violation alone in

1124
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 1: the US. And so you got out when what year

1125
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: that was?

1126
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 5: November twenty two?

1127
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: Tell me why one of the toughest men I fit

1128
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: from that? In my wife, you're in the vitamin water

1129
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: bis but happens. Let me tell you why.

1130
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 5: Vitamin one you get it on Amazon. It's a good

1131
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,479
Speaker 5: healthy drink. In Iraq during the war, it's one hundred

1132
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 5: thirty hundred and forty degrees here every day and we're pounding,

1133
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 5: you know, twenty five thirty bottles of Gatorade and have

1134
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 5: all the sugar. Sugar's just cramping us up and just

1135
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 5: brutal on us. So we had to fly a couple

1136
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 5: of airplane loads of Pedia Light. In Pedia light tastes horrible,

1137
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 5: I mean terrible, terrible. Maybe it tastes a little bit

1138
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 5: better now, but it tastes terrible. So that's where I

1139
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 5: got the idea there's got to be something else out there.

1140
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 5: There wasn't, so that's where I created Vitamin One. It

1141
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 5: has no sugar, but it's got the electrolytes and the

1142
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:39,919
Speaker 5: energy enhancing bikes going.

1143
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: It's still okay. It's tough.

1144
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 5: You know, Co Compepsia the big dogs on the block here.

1145
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 5: You know, our sales over in the Middle East are

1146
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 5: much better than here, but we sell here in Amazon.

1147
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 5: We're trying to get in a Costco Kroger the other

1148
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 5: stores we got. Arthur Demola's a market basket up in Massachusetts. Phenomenal,

1149
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,479
Speaker 5: phenomenal supermarket chain. And what a great guy. He puts

1150
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 5: his money where his mouth is because he put is

1151
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 5: in every one of his stores. So we're in the

1152
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 5: full market basket chain thanks to Arthur Demolos.

1153
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: So you're over in Beyrout on business and is there

1154
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: any are you ever anywhere in proximity to go?

1155
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,439
Speaker 5: And oh, I've seen him a couple of times.

1156
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: You've seen him? Oh yeah, you sat with him. Yeah,

1157
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: you met with him face to face, but we was

1158
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: it pleasant your interaction with him? It was very civil. Yeah,

1159
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: amazing you could sit down with this guy who you've

1160
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: saved his life to. Well, let me just say, I

1161
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 1: don't have many people on the show that I can

1162
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: save this you, but I'm not an honor to meet you.

1163
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you.

1164
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: My thanks to Mike Taylor and director James Jones. This

1165
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City.

1166
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin.

1167
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is

1168
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: Daniel Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing that's brought

1169
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Radio.