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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Future Bridgid. So we recorded this week's

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Speaker 1: news roundup on Thursday afternoon, the day before The New

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Speaker 1: York Times just broke a story about Kate Middleton being

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Speaker 1: diagnosed with cancer. You can read the New York Times

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Speaker 1: as full story in the show notes. But this news

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Speaker 1: came out just as we published the episode for this week,

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Speaker 1: so we pulled the episode down so that I could

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Speaker 1: re record this introduction that you're hearing right now to

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Speaker 1: give that context. Okay, thanks for listening, and here's the episode,

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. This is

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore

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Speaker 1: the intersection of technology, social media, the Internet, and identity.

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Speaker 1: And you're listening to another one of our weekly roundups

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Speaker 1: where we summarize and break down the news that you

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Speaker 1: might have missed on the Internet this week. Mike, thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being here again. The last time we

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Speaker 1: saw each other on the mic, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: Kate Middleton.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Uh.

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Speaker 3: It was a story that had been going on for

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Speaker 3: a little while, and it seems to continue to be

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Speaker 3: going on.

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Speaker 1: It has continued, So I did want to give folks

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a brief update on what's happened

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Speaker 1: in Kate Middleton Royal's world since we last spoke. So

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Speaker 1: this week, TMZ released a video of Kate out shopping.

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Speaker 1: The video was shot by like a random person on

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Speaker 1: a cell phone, just somebody off the street, who then

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Speaker 1: provided it to TMZ. So TMZ also published the metadata

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Speaker 1: of this video. Metadata tells you when and where a

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Speaker 1: piece of content was recorded, which confirms that this video

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Speaker 1: was indeed recorded next to Kate Middleton's home and was

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Speaker 1: recorded on that Saturday. Just like they said, it was

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Speaker 1: case close right.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe is a good.

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Speaker 1: Way to put it, because just like we talked about

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Speaker 1: in that episode, really breaking down Kate Middleton, but really

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Speaker 1: talking about how conspiracy theories move online more generally, once

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory reaches a certain point, there is like

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Speaker 1: no amount of hard evidence that will satisfy people who

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Speaker 1: are deeply, deeply convinced that something fishy is going on. However,

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Speaker 1: that said, I have to say that the way that

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Speaker 1: TMZ is acting right now after having published this video

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Speaker 1: is weird, Like it is they're acting a little bit weird.

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Speaker 1: So after publishing this video and saying it is Kate

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Speaker 1: definitively case clothed, here's the metadata. Let's put all the

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories to rest. Then two of their executive producers

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Speaker 1: went on TMZ Live, which is like TMZ's live television show,

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Speaker 1: and basically kind of walked back whether or not they

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Speaker 1: thought it was actually her.

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Speaker 4: Here's what they said.

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Speaker 2: So she looks great.

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Speaker 4: Where's the security?

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Speaker 5: Where is the security?

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Speaker 6: That's a good question. And why is it with all

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Speaker 6: the people that were there, this is the only video

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Speaker 6: that surfaced, the video that we secured. Why is it

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Speaker 6: that they're in the store, moseying around, going to the

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Speaker 6: cash regiser. Nobody's taking any pictures, any photos, any video,

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Speaker 6: but we got this.

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Speaker 1: So I genuinely do not know what is going on

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Speaker 1: here because I think that TMZ would have authenticated this

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Speaker 1: video as being Kate before publishing it and saying that

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Speaker 1: it's Kate. Now, I can hear people out there listening

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Speaker 1: who are thinking, bridget TMZ is a shady tabloid. Why

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Speaker 1: would you expect them to verify what they put out

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Speaker 1: or confirm what they put out before they publish it,

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Speaker 1: to which I won't say I'll push back on that,

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Speaker 1: but I would complicate that a little bit because yes,

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Speaker 1: TMZ is an outlet that is run by pieces of

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Speaker 1: human garbage who have no ethical or moral compass whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: They are not good people. I will we could do

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Speaker 1: a whole other episode on this. However, TMZ is not

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Speaker 1: an outlet that tends to get stuff wrong. That is

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Speaker 1: one thing I can say about them, Like, if TMZ

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Speaker 1: reports that somebody is dead, that person is probably dead

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Speaker 1: even if no other outlet is reporting it because they're TMZ.

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Speaker 1: Like I remember when Michael Jackson died. They were the

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Speaker 1: first to run with that story, and everybody was like,

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Speaker 1: well it's TMZ, let's wait until we get another outlet.

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Speaker 1: But the reason why TMZ tends to always sort of

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Speaker 1: get it right on these big breaking stories is because,

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Speaker 1: like they are known to have police on their payroll

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Speaker 1: and like payoff police. Like folks might remember back when

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Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant and his daughter died in that helicopter crash,

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Speaker 1: TMZ reported that news first, and it started a whole

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Speaker 1: conversation of whether or not they should have reported that

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Speaker 1: because the police had still not notified all of the

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Speaker 1: family members, and so TMC is an outlet that is

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Speaker 1: known for reporting things first and correct actually perhaps because

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Speaker 1: they are unethical.

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Speaker 4: Goules with no souls.

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Speaker 1: So if TMZ is publishing something generally speaking that is

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Speaker 1: like they're not an outlet that is known to put

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Speaker 1: out just like blies.

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Speaker 3: But it sounds like maybe this story and this photo

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Speaker 3: are a little different.

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Speaker 1: Well, I genuinely don't know what's going on here. Like

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Speaker 1: it's possible that TMZ has just sensed that, like they

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Speaker 1: have like what they see as a juicy story.

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Speaker 4: So they're they're.

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Speaker 1: Putting out a video and saying this is confirmed to

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Speaker 1: be Kate, and then their producers are going on their

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Speaker 1: channel and saying like, oh, we don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: Kate or not. Maybe they're thinking that like this will

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Speaker 1: lead to more engagement on a story that they perceive

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Speaker 1: as like juicy. Maybe they did not authenticate that video

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Speaker 1: before publishing it. I really don't know, Like anybody's guest

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Speaker 1: is as good as mine in terms of what is

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Speaker 1: actually going on here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's probably one of like a thousand stories

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Speaker 3: where we might never know exactly.

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Speaker 1: But I will say, like there are images flowing around

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Speaker 1: on social media right now that are purporting to show

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Speaker 1: a quote enhanced still from that video, purporting to prove

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Speaker 1: that like, oh, it's not really caids, it's a body double,

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Speaker 1: it's a stand in. Those are one hundred and ten

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Speaker 1: percent fake, Like I can, I can assure you that

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Speaker 1: if anybody is pushing around images that are purporting to

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Speaker 1: use AI to like enhance these this video, that's not

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Speaker 1: even how it works. Those are fake. As Google's Adriana

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Speaker 1: porter Felt wrote on Twitter, I keep seeing people post

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Speaker 1: photo enhancements as fact. This does not actually enhance the

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Speaker 1: original photo. It invents a plausible new photo and overlays

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Speaker 1: it on the blurry original. The generated version is actually

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Speaker 1: less trustworthy than the original blurry video. Don't do this, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think it's this idea that we all live in

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Speaker 1: a CSI episode where you can just type type type

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Speaker 1: type type enhance type type type TI type enhance using AI.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't work that way.

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Speaker 4: These are all bay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: I think you and I were talking about false precision

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Speaker 3: in some other context this morning, right, like the idea,

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Speaker 3: and I think it applies here too, right, that you

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Speaker 3: can have this photo that looks very highly detailed and precise,

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Speaker 3: and it tricks your brain into thinking that, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this more precise, sharper image clearly must be more true.

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Speaker 3: But that's just like not the case, for exactly the

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Speaker 3: way that that well spoken quote from that Google person

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Speaker 3: mentioned like it looks sharper, but it's just an invented,

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Speaker 3: plausible image.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I think some of the conspiracy theories

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Speaker 1: about this won't die, because your brain tricks you into

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Speaker 1: thinking this sharp, clear image must be correct, when in

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Speaker 1: fact it is less trustworthy than that grainy video. So

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Speaker 1: I have to say this, and this is pretty horrifying.

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Speaker 1: Kate's private medical information was involved in a data security

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Speaker 1: breach after at least one member of the staff at

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Speaker 1: the hospital where she was staying back in January attempted

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Speaker 1: to view her medical records while she was a patient there.

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Speaker 1: Authorities are actually now investigating whether or not the hospital

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Speaker 1: broke the law by failing to report this breach in

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Speaker 1: a timely manner. So there is no ambiguity or gray

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Speaker 1: area here. This is just so deeply deeply messed up.

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Speaker 1: End of sentence period, and I think this was the

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Speaker 1: point I was trying to make in the episode that

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Speaker 1: we did breaking all of this down last week, that

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Speaker 1: there is a difference between the public asking questions about

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Speaker 1: how Kensington Palace, right a political and social institution, is moving,

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Speaker 1: and how the Kensington Palace is communicating with the public

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Speaker 1: without demanding access and you know, an entitlement to information

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Speaker 1: about an individual's like private sensitive health information right. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think that when a public who is voracious for

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Speaker 1: any kind of information about Kate as a person blurs

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Speaker 1: those lines, we get this dynamic where people really do

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Speaker 1: feel like it is okay to try to obtain an

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Speaker 1: individual's personal, private medical information to satisfy that question, and

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Speaker 1: it's not. Not only is it illegal, it is wrong.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that's really where we're kind of

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Speaker 1: getting into this problem of I think it is totally

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Speaker 1: fair to scrutinize and criticize and ask questions about the

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Speaker 1: way that the institution that is, the Royal family is

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Speaker 1: communicating with the public.

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Speaker 4: That is totally fair game.

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Speaker 1: That is different than demanding information about an individual, in

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Speaker 1: this case, Kate's private medical information.

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Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: It does make sense, And uh, you know, I know

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Speaker 3: that we got a few emails from listeners after that

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Speaker 3: previous episode, and I think it's worth, you know, clarifying

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Speaker 3: why we're talking about this story on this show. And

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Speaker 3: you know, so like Bridget, are we talking talking about

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Speaker 3: this because you have some sort of personal interest in

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Speaker 3: the royal family, or like some expertise in the royal family,

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Speaker 3: or because you feel like, you know, all of you

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Speaker 3: have some personal feelings about Kate Middleton and feel like

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Speaker 3: we have a right to know, like what's going on

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Speaker 3: with her personal life? Or are those your motivations for

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Speaker 3: wanting to talk about it on this show.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely not. I don't know anything about Kate Middleton. Of

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Speaker 1: all of the royals that I know anything about, she

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Speaker 1: is the one that I have followed the least, and

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Speaker 1: I don't really follow any of them, so that's actually

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Speaker 1: really saying something. But I do think that when it

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Speaker 1: comes to institutions that wield public power and do enjoy

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Speaker 1: a level of public support, it is not just okay

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Speaker 1: to ask questions and scrutinize how they are communicating with

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Speaker 1: the public. I think it's necessary, and I think that

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Speaker 1: when we get into these gray areas of people being like, well,

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Speaker 1: how dare you demand private information about Kate? I don't

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Speaker 1: think that anybody should be demanding private information about Kate.

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Speaker 1: I certainly don't think that if you are someone working

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Speaker 1: in a clinic where she may have stayed, but you

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Speaker 1: should be going through her private health records.

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Speaker 4: My god.

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Speaker 1: However, that is different than asking questions about, well, who

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Speaker 1: in Kensington Palace used photoshop to doctor images in a

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Speaker 1: way that they had to have known was against Newswire

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Speaker 1: rules and then tried to submit them as if they

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Speaker 1: were not doctored. I think that's a totally fair question

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Speaker 1: and a question that speaks to how institutions are communicating

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Speaker 1: with the public. But that's a different thing than like,

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Speaker 1: what kind of medical issue did Kate have and when

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Speaker 1: did she have it? Like, that's a completely different question

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Speaker 1: that I think is Kate's private business. Before we got

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Speaker 1: on the mic, I was reading about how another image,

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Speaker 1: another holiday image of the late Queen, it was revealed

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Speaker 1: that that Kensington Palace had doctored that image similarly to

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Speaker 1: the one of Kate, and you know, did not tell anybody,

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Speaker 1: and it got past it got past fact checkers, and

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Speaker 1: it was distributed via Newswire, and I was a prize

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Speaker 1: to see a lot of the commenters saying things like

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Speaker 1: they're celebrities. It's news now that celebrities are photoshopping wrinkles

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Speaker 1: out of their images and like using photoshop to make

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Speaker 1: them look better. And no, first of all, these people

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Speaker 1: are not normal celebrities. So I'm not even interested in

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Speaker 1: whether or not the Late Queen use photoshop or whatever.

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Speaker 1: The question is, did they knowingly violate the very clear

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Speaker 1: and explicit rules around how you submit authenticated photos to

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Speaker 1: newswire services to get distributed out in an official capacity?

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Speaker 1: Did they violate that? I'm not interested in with If

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Speaker 1: they just put photoshopped images on their own personal instagrams

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Speaker 1: and leave it at that, who cares? But this is

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Speaker 1: a very different thing. And again, I just think that

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Speaker 1: the blurriness between individual actions of individuals and the way

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Speaker 1: that this massive, powerful, publicly supported institution is communicating with

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Speaker 1: the public, those are two different things. One of them

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Speaker 1: is fair game, and in fact that I would argue

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Speaker 1: we should be asking questions about the other.

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Speaker 4: Who cares?

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Speaker 1: And I think that's sort of the thread that we're

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Speaker 1: losing in this conversation.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think the world has really changed a

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Speaker 3: lot in terms of like what are the rules and

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Speaker 3: norms around touching up photos. Perhaps the the you know,

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Speaker 3: the rules for the wire services haven't changed, but just

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Speaker 3: you know, common practices around what people do personally. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm willing to grant that has changed a lot in

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Speaker 3: the past couple of years with AI filters, but they

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Speaker 3: it really feels like there's a lot of room for

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Speaker 3: Kensington Palace, who receives I believe hundreds of millions of

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Speaker 3: dollars of like taxpayer support. Hopefully this lights of fire

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Speaker 3: for them to get up to speed on what's needed

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Speaker 3: to ideally play an active role in helping re establish

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Speaker 3: rules so that people can have trust in the information

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Speaker 3: that they see.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a great segue to this glassdoor story, which

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Speaker 1: is a weird one. Like I've one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk to you about this because you

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Speaker 1: have a background in PII. What is it personal identifying information?

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 4: So here's what's going on.

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Speaker 1: If you have ever talked crap about your job anonymously

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Speaker 1: on the website Glassdoor, which is an anonymous forum for

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Speaker 1: people to rate and review their workplaces, you might want

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Speaker 1: to think twice because we are seeing multiple reports that

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Speaker 1: Glassdoor collected and added people's names to their user profiles

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Speaker 1: without their consent. So tech Crunch reports that one user

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Speaker 1: who they're calling Monica, wrote in a post on her

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Speaker 1: personal blog that Glassdoor added her name in the city

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Speaker 1: where she lives to her Glassdoor profile following an email

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Speaker 1: exchange that she had with Glassdoor customer support, despite never

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Speaker 1: having consensually provided her name during the initial sign up process,

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Speaker 1: which would happen two years earlier. So basically, it kind

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Speaker 1: of sounds like if Glassdoor learns your name or learn

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Speaker 1: some kind of personal identifying information about you, even if

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Speaker 1: you do not provide it to them when you're signing

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Speaker 1: up for Glassdoor, they will add it to your profile

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Speaker 1: without your consent.

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Speaker 2: So how does she say that they got her.

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Speaker 1: Name from this email exchange that she had with Glassdoor

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Speaker 1: customer support that when she signed up for Glassdoor years earlier,

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Speaker 1: she didn't use her name she wanted to stay anonymous.

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Speaker 1: That she had a years later, she had a back

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Speaker 1: and forth email exchange with Glassdoor customer support. Her email

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Speaker 1: signature includes her name and location, and they just took

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Speaker 1: from that email her name, first and last name, and

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Speaker 1: location and added it to her profile, even though she

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Speaker 1: never consented to that and didn't want that, And to

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Speaker 1: be clear, like Glassdoor is a place where anonymity would

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Speaker 1: be really important, like if you weren't trashing your boss,

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Speaker 1: or you had something really important to say, it makes

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Speaker 1: sense why you wouldn't necessarily want to have your first

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Speaker 1: and last name attached to a what you thought was

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Speaker 1: an anonymous review of a workplace. And one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why I'm having a little bit of trouble with

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Speaker 1: this story is that this really sounds like a change.

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Speaker 1: I know from being in the space for a while

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Speaker 1: that Glassdoor really used to thrive on user anonymity and

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Speaker 1: was like kind of an industry leader in protecting PII

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Speaker 1: personal identifying information. But what sounds like changed was a

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Speaker 1: corporate acquisition. So ours Technical reports that although it is

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Speaker 1: common for many users online to link services at sign

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Speaker 1: up to their Facebook or their Gmail account to verify

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Speaker 1: identity and streamline logins, for years, Glassdoor has notably allowed

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Speaker 1: users to sign up for its service anonymously. But in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, Glassdoor acquired Fishbowl, a professional networking app

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Speaker 1: that integrated with Glassdoor. Last July, this acquisition meant that

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Speaker 1: every Glassdoor user was automatically signed up for a fish

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Speaker 1: Bowl account, and because Fishbowl requires users to verify their identities,

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Speaker 1: Glassdoor's terms of service changed to require all users be verified.

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Speaker 1: So I should be clear that this is not a

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Speaker 1: theoretical concern. Lawyers or companies who have been negatively reviewed

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Speaker 1: on Glassdoor have regularly tried to learn the identities of

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Speaker 1: the people leaving anonymous reviews on the site. The organization

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Speaker 1: the Electronic Frontier Foundation regularly defends Glassdoor users from being

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Speaker 1: unmasked by retaliating employers, particularly for employees who fear retaliation

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Speaker 1: for reviews. The lawyer for EFF said that Glassdoor users

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Speaker 1: could historically choose never to share their real names, and

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Speaker 1: the company is now storing names for all users makes

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Speaker 1: it much more likely that users could be linked to

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Speaker 1: their reviews should glassdoors data ever be subpoenaed or leaked.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's such a good point that it's

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Speaker 3: worth like reemphasizing it that. You know, it's one thing

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Speaker 3: for Glassdoor to have a privacy policy that says like

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Speaker 3: we will not release your name. That's great, that's good,

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Speaker 3: but it's if to truly have your name be protected.

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Speaker 3: It would be better if they never had it in

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Speaker 3: the first place. Right, Like we've seen this very concerned

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Speaker 3: playout with concerns about the Kids Online Safety Act, Right

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Speaker 3: that it's going to be collecting all of this information,

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Speaker 3: And even if that information is nominally protected, the fact

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Speaker 3: that it is stored somewhere puts it at risk. Right,

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Speaker 3: It's at risk of there being some kind of breach

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Speaker 3: that makes that information public despite the company not wanting

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Speaker 3: to be public. And it's also at risk if there's

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Speaker 3: like a change in ownership and a change of privacy policy,

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Speaker 3: which seems to be the situation here.

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Speaker 1: It's funny to hear you say this because just before

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Speaker 1: we were talking, you were annoyed and I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: what's going on. You were like, Oh, I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: track a package that I bought, but it wants me

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Speaker 1: to shine up sign up for Shop to do that,

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Speaker 1: and I have to give shop this shop app access

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Speaker 1: to all my emails.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, oh, I use Shop all the time.

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Speaker 1: And you were like, it doesn't concern you, Like you

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Speaker 1: don't give your information to anybody.

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Speaker 3: No, I really try to jealously protect my privacy. I

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Speaker 3: think we all have an obligation to you occasionally inconvenience

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Speaker 3: ourselves to jealously protect our privacy against the constant encroachment

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Speaker 3: of tech companies that want all of our data. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you've

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Speaker 3: brought it up, I'll go down this tangent that I

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Speaker 3: was so annoyed at shop this morning. Generally I find

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Speaker 3: shop like fairly convenient to use. They do a good

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Speaker 3: job tracking packages when I'm buying from some kind of retailer.

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Speaker 3: But the limitation that drives me up the wall is

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Speaker 3: that so like earlier this week, I ordered two different

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Speaker 3: packages from two different retailers. They're both being delivered and

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Speaker 3: tracked by Shop Okay, I got a text message notification

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Speaker 3: that says like, Hey, your package is being delivered today.

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Speaker 3: I was curious which of my two items was it

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Speaker 3: going to be. I can't know that without using the

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Speaker 3: Shop app. There's no way to do it through the web.

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Speaker 3: There's no way to do it unless I install the

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Speaker 3: Shop app on my phone. I was surprised that I

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Speaker 3: didn't have the Shop app on my phone, so I

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Speaker 3: went to install it, and then remember that I had

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Speaker 3: been here before and the app will not install proper. Really,

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Speaker 3: unless I give it access to read all of my emails.

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Speaker 3: Why in the world do they need to read all

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Speaker 3: of my emails? Not okay, and I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: do it. And you know, I looked on Reddit and

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Speaker 3: people were complaining about this, and one of the top

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Speaker 3: comments was like, oh, just read their privacy policy. They're

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Speaker 3: you know, they're not going to do anything with your data.

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Speaker 3: They just have They just want to help you. That's

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Speaker 3: the stupidest take I've read all day, right, Like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm just going to trust this online retailer with you know,

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Speaker 3: all of my personal the contents of all of my

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Speaker 3: personal emails.

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Speaker 2: Uh, what could they possibly want with that? Right?

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Speaker 3: An online retailer that is into like trying to get

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Speaker 3: me to buy more things I couldn't imagine. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: tangent ended. But I'm glad that I had the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to connect it to this story, because you know, once

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Speaker 3: your information is out there, it's out there.

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Speaker 7: Let's take a quick break that are back.

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Speaker 1: Well, So the thing that really worries me about the

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Speaker 1: glassdoor situation is that I think I have to imagine

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Speaker 1: that it's going to be a lot of traditionally marginalized

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Speaker 1: people who are going to suffer if this is just

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Speaker 1: how glass Door functions from now on, right, I can

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Speaker 1: imagine that it is women, trans folks, queer folks, people

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Speaker 1: of color who are raising the alarm about things like

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Speaker 1: racial or gender discrimination or like sexual harassment. And I

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Speaker 1: can't help but understanding this story against this creep toward

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Speaker 1: not being able to use forums that were previously available

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Speaker 1: to you to privately raise the alarms about concerns. You know,

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Speaker 1: especially given that we're seeing more and more are people

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Speaker 1: who do speak up about you know, wrongdoing facing things

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Speaker 1: like defamation lawsuits for doing so. It's you know, we're

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Speaker 1: not just talking about people who are complaining about their

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Speaker 1: boss's coffee breath or whatever. It is people who a

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Speaker 1: lot of times are raising serious alarms or serious concerns

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Speaker 1: in a forum that one might think would be anonymous

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Speaker 1: or private for them to do so safely. And so

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Speaker 1: I really can't help but see the story against that

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Speaker 1: backdrop of like, well, shoot, like, are people going to

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Speaker 1: be able to use glass door safely to report genuine,

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Speaker 1: real concerns?

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Speaker 2: That's my question, Yeah mine too.

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Speaker 3: This story like really surprised me and makes me a

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Speaker 3: little bit sad because I view Glassdoor as a very

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Speaker 3: valuable resource and historically a very good actor towards transferring

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Speaker 3: some power back to workers to somewhat reduce the massive

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Speaker 3: asymmeagery between workers and people who own companies and employ them. Historically,

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Speaker 3: they've been pretty good about this stuff, and so this

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Speaker 3: feels really out of character, really disappointing, and I think

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Speaker 3: it'll it just happened like pretty recently. I think this story,

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Speaker 3: we'll link it to it in the show notes. But

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Speaker 3: it was just published yesterday, and I thought, surely Glassdoor

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Speaker 3: is going to put out a statement saying that this

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Speaker 3: was a mistake. They haven't done that yet, And what

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Speaker 3: little they said in quotes to that Ours Technica Reporter

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Speaker 3: was pretty unsatisfying. They really seem to say that there

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Speaker 3: wasn't an issue here. But then there's also a bunch

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Speaker 3: of articles across the internet from other publications, and like

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Speaker 3: some big ones like NPR really amplifying this story and

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Speaker 3: this concern in ways that are very unflattering for glass Door.

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Speaker 3: So I'm maating hopeful that they will recognize what a

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Speaker 3: catastrophic misstep this is for their product that really depends

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Speaker 3: on anonymity, that they will take some corrective action to

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Speaker 3: reassure people that, like Glassdoor is still a place where

439
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 3: you can post anonymous reviews that will truly be anonymous,

440
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: because without that, like what even is it?

441
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of missteps and hopeful corrections on them, let's

442
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: talk about the dating app Bumble. So y'all might remember

443
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: that a lot of tech companies were relocating from San

444
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: Francisco or like other places in California, to Texas. Specifically,

445
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: a lot of them are relocating to Austin. Well, that

446
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 1: is maybe not working out for a whole host of reasons,

447
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 1: but one of those reasons is Texas's restrictive abortion laws. So,

448
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: at a panel at south By Southwest, ironically held in Austin,

449
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: the council for the dating app Bumble that is sort

450
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: of supposed to be like a more woman focused dating app,

451
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: revealed that the company has lost a third of its

452
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: Texas workforce in the month since the state passed horribly

453
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: restrictive abortion laws known as SB eight sometimes called the

454
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: Texas Heartbeat Act, over a year ago. Because of these

455
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: very extremist laws that are completely out of step with

456
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: what the majority of the country wants, Bumble it no

457
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: longer requires people to work at their Austin headquarters. Bumble

458
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: actually became the first company to join an amarchist brief

459
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: in support of a lawsuit against the Texas abortion law

460
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: filed by the Center for Reproductive Rights. So I wanted

461
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: to talk about this for a couple of reasons. One

462
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: because I think it's really important to highlight the very

463
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: real risk that laws like this poth to people who

464
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: are pregnant or the people who support people who are pregnant. However,

465
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: this also highlights the business rambifications of extremist abortion laws

466
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: as well. The chief council for Bumble said, we were

467
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: looking at the lens and what we are putting forth

468
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: in the brief was talking about the increased cost to

469
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: us to attract and retain talent in Texas, the increased

470
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: costs for us to provide healthcare benefits to our employees.

471
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 1: We've found that because of our position, having been founded

472
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: with women at the forefront from the beginning and having

473
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: that voice and that legitimacy to begin with, we could

474
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: combine that with this very business centric art and help

475
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: support that case. This actually led to a bunch of

476
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: businesses from all over Texas signing on to this anarchist brief,

477
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: pointing out that these kind of extremists abortion laws really

478
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: do put their business in jeopardy by making it harder

479
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: to recruit top talent. Bumble specifically said that they had

480
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: started to offer like an enhanced health care coverage that

481
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: includes things like gender affirming care and IVF because those

482
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: kinds of healthcare have been threatened in the state. Although,

483
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: like part of me wonders, you know, it's good to

484
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: have that coverage included, but if that kind of healthcare

485
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: is illegal, you can't access it in Texas. It does

486
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: kind of seem like a moot point.

487
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point.

488
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: I yeah, I'm curious about that, but I don't know

489
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 3: anything about it.

490
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, But overall, I mean, I do think that of

491
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: all the different avenuess to be talking about how restrictive

492
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: abortion laws impact people negatively, I do think I want

493
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: to hear more from the business community, because certainly it

494
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: is an economic issue, not just for the people who

495
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 1: need abortions, for the people who do any kind of

496
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: business all over the country, in addition to being a

497
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: reproductive health issue. And so I do want to see

498
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: more businesses, particularly businesses who are you know, are about,

499
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: you know, sticking up with women, sticking up with marginalized people.

500
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: I want I want to see more of these businesses

501
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: weighing in as we go into this more and more extremist,

502
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: restrictive climate.

503
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be great.

504
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 3: I mean, there's so many reasons why giving people reproductive

505
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: freedom and allowing them to make their own medical choices

506
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: is like a win win for society, right, like, not

507
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: just businesses, but also in terms of like the huge

508
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: costs of unwanted pregnancies right like to individuals, to healthcare systems,

509
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 3: UH to social services for years and years.

510
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: Well.

511
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: To that end, we have to talk about the growth

512
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 1: in misinformation swirling around social media around birth control. So

513
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: there was this new very detailed report by the Washington

514
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: Post about how social media platforms are awash in medically

515
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: inaccurate content about birth control and how it is leading

516
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: to real world consequences. You should definitely read the entire thing.

517
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: It is very detailed. We'll put it in the show notes.

518
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: But basically, you have these like health influencers I'm using

519
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 1: that in heavy scare quotes, and also right wing extremists

520
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: really trying to scare people into thinking that birth control

521
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: is dangerous.

522
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: Now.

523
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: Birth control, like any other medication, does have side effects.

524
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: In rare cases, it can cause things like blood clots.

525
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 4: That is real.

526
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: But these people are not trying to foster fact based

527
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: conversations about the real concerns around birth control. They're saying

528
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,479
Speaker 1: nonsense like, oh, birth control, if you take it, it

529
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: will change your entire personality, it will change the kind

530
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: of people that you are sexually attracted to. Things that

531
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: are just fear mongering and nonsense. So you have these

532
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: health influencers suggesting natural forms of non hormonal birth control,

533
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: like only having sex on your period, which by the way,

534
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: does not work. And this is all particularly fraught given

535
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: how restrictive abortion access is in this country right now

536
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: and how criminalized it is. So you have people with

537
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: these big platforms essentially suggesting people stop using birth control

538
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: and instead only have sex on their periods, a like

539
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: a method that is known for unintended pregnancies in a

540
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: country where you cannot easily access abortion care if you

541
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: need it, or can be criminalized and sent to prison

542
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: for doing so. So this is really one of those

543
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: issues where you can see how tech issues and social

544
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: media platform issues are also reproductive rights issues and gender issues.

545
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: Doctors are saying that they're seeing an explosion of birth

546
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: control misinformation online target a very vulnerable demographic, people in

547
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: their teens and early twenties, who are more likely to

548
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: believe what they see on their phones because of algorithms

549
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: that feed them a stream of videos reinforcing messages often

550
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: divorced from scientific evidence. While doctors say hormonal contraception is

551
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 1: safe and effective, they worry about the profession's long standing

552
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: lack of transparency and some of the serious but rare

553
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: side effects that have left many patients seeking information from

554
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: unqualified online communities. So I have actually personally seen a

555
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: lot of this on social media. I'm sad to say

556
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: I just like most abortion advocates told us, anti choice

557
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: extremists and people who want to tell other people what

558
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: to do with their own bodies were never going to

559
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: stop at abortion. It was going to be birth control. Weirdly,

560
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: it was also tampons. Like for a while I was

561
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: seeing that bubble up, like right wing extremists basically suggesting

562
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: that having tampons in school bathrooms meant that teachers and

563
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: schools were like sexually abusing young people. Because like I

564
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: remember seeing this post that was someone being like, as

565
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: a father, it should be up to me whether or

566
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: not my daughter uses a tampon, and if a school

567
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: should have no say and whether or not my daughter

568
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: uses a tampon. He was like angry that the school

569
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: was providing tampons in the watchrooms. So anybody watching this

570
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: could have told you it was not going to stop

571
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: with abortion. It was going to be all of these

572
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: different things that pertain to reproductive health being demonized. So

573
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: this backlash to birth control really comes at a time

574
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: where we see this rampant misinformation about basic health combined

575
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: with really really poor digital literacy, and this wider political

576
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: debate around reproductive rights in which far right conservatives argue

577
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: that the broad acceptance of birth control has altered tradition

578
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: roles and weaken the family. And so if you're wondering,

579
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: like what does Ben Shapiro or Candace Owen care whether

580
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: or not I use birth control, that sort of their

581
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: ultimate point is that birth control is changing gender roles,

582
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: is changing how we think of traditional families, and therefore

583
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: it's bad. So in a Daily Wire video, Candace Owens

584
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: denounced birth controls and iud's as quote unnatural saying she

585
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,479
Speaker 1: is a big advocate of getting women to realize this

586
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: stuff is not normal. She also says that her viewers

587
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: told her that IUDs can harm fertility, which medical experts

588
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: agree there is no evidence that birth control impacts long

589
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: term fertility, so that's just not true. Also, she's kind

590
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: of doing a little bit of an Elon musk thing.

591
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if you watched any of that Elon

592
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: musk Uh interview with Don Lemon, where Don Lemon is like,

593
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: what evidence do you have that pilot that black pilots

594
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: are being held to lower standards? And he's like, well,

595
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: people on Twitter say that all the time, and it's like, no,

596
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: that doesn't make it true. I feel like Candice Owens,

597
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, well, people are saying that iud's cause

598
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: long term fertility issues, and it's like, it doesn't that

599
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: does it? Just because you read it on the internet

600
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: doesn't make it true. Ben Shapiro, noted reproductive health expert

601
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: not really. He claims that birth control makes women attracted

602
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: to less manly, less masculine men, like these.

603
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: People are just so fucking stupid.

604
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,479
Speaker 1: Like part of me is like like what even what

605
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: point is there even I don't. Obviously that's not true,

606
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: and I don't even I don't even have a little

607
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: joke to make. It's just such a ridiculous point that

608
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: I can't believe that somebody with a massive platform is

609
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: allowed to just go on TV, go on their platform

610
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: spread dangerous falsehoods that are not just untrue but also silly.

611
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: Many of these people who are like railing against birth control,

612
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 3: it's not like they have families of like twenty kids, right,

613
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: Like a lot of these political commentators, I have pretty

614
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,479
Speaker 3: small families, and one has to imagine that that has

615
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: helped them in their professional careers to achieve the massive

616
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 3: platforms that they have. Are we supposed to believe that

617
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 3: none of them have used birth control?

618
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: Well, the thing with Candice Owen is she's a liar

619
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: and a grifter and a scammer baby like she does

620
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: not she'll say anything about anybody does not like this.

621
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 4: It's not work that to.

622
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: Try to hold her to any kind of a standard

623
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: that makes sense.

624
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 4: That it's not what she is about.

625
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: And I would say, like publicly, this is not what

626
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: she don't don't think I think that she would agree

627
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: that's not what she's about. Like she says things about

628
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: how women shouldn't work. How when she gets on a

629
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: plane and she sees a woman pilot, she thinks, oh, no,

630
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 1: we're going to die today.

631
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 4: Baby.

632
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: You have a job, you have a career. You are

633
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: a woman who works. You are a working mom. So

634
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: when you go on TV and you go on your

635
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: little podcast and you demonize working moms, look at a mirror,

636
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: because you are a mom with a job, You make

637
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: a ton of money, you go to work every day.

638
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 4: I don't want to hear it.

639
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: Obviously, if you are a person of reproductive age who

640
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: is building a career, you have probably used worth control

641
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: at some point to buttress that career and to have

642
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: control over your life.

643
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 4: And more power to you.

644
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 1: You should everybody should be able to make health residence

645
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: for themselves. However, Candice omens she just says whatever, like

646
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: and so when it comes to her, especially, I don't

647
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: think it's worth trying to make heads or tails of

648
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,959
Speaker 1: what she's saying, because she'll say anything for a check.

649
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: She's like Mia off a Real Housewives of Potomac. She'll

650
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: say whatever. If you don't watch Potomac, Mia lies, That's

651
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 4: my point.

652
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: Mia, just catch it straight. Doesn't you have enough problems

653
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: right now?

654
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: She does, She does, I should lay off Mia and

655
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: also Mia, there's a whole other topic, but Mia has

656
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: kind of like become my fan favorite.

657
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,439
Speaker 4: So even though she's a liar.

658
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: So Washington Post spoke to Brittany Martinez is the founder

659
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: of ev Magazine, which you can kind of think of

660
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: as like a right wing Cosmo, and she said in

661
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: an email to the Post that her outlet's work has

662
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: made questioning birth control mainstream, saying women have been silenced

663
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: and shamed by legacy media, the pharmaceutical industry, and then

664
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: many cases about their own doctors who have guessed lit

665
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: them about their.

666
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 4: Experiences with hermonal birth control.

667
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: So this comment, to me, really illustrates nicely how bad

668
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: actors like this work, right. They seize on the very

669
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: real and very legitimate anxieties or fears or baggage that

670
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: marginalized people have. She is right up until a point

671
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: that women really have been like silenced and ignored about

672
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: our medical issues by doctors and a pharmaceutical industry that

673
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 1: do not often seem to really care about our pain,

674
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: about our health, about our bodies.

675
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 4: So that part is true.

676
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: But where she fucks up is that she then cruelly

677
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 1: exploits these anxieties and these very real tensions and baggage

678
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: that we have to push her own dangerous agenda. And

679
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: that is something we see time and time again with

680
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: bad actors and extremists like this. Something else this report

681
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 1: points out is how these bad actors are exploiting racialized

682
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: and gendered fears and anxieties around medical information to further

683
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: push harmful and accurate information about birth control. The report reads,

684
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: women of color, whose communities have historically been exploited by

685
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: the medical establishment may be particularly vulnerable to misinformation given

686
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: the long history of mistrust around birth control in this country.

687
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: That's from Kimberly Baker, an assistant professor at ut Health

688
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: Houston School of Public Health. For sterilization of tens of

689
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: thousands of primarily black, Latina and Indigenous women happened under

690
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: the US government programs in the twentieth century. That's another

691
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: huge reason why these negative videos around birth control get

692
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: a lot of fanfare, because there's already stigma attached to it,

693
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: and that's deeped in our history. And so you really

694
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: do see these bad actors cruelly and callously picking at

695
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: and exploiting these very real traumas that our communities have

696
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: been carrying around for decades for real reasons, and exploiting it.

697
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 1: And sometimes they're exploiting people and their anxieties and baggage

698
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: and trauma for money.

699
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 4: Like a lot of.

700
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: These people when they're like like health influencers in quotes,

701
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: they'll be talking about how birth control is unnatural or dangerous,

702
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: and then you go to their page and they're selling

703
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: some kind of a hormonal supplement or hormonal coaching something

704
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: that is just like BS And so they're scaring people

705
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: in order to scam them, and they have a financial

706
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: incentive to do so. And honestly, doctors are already seeing

707
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: the irl impact. The reports talks about how doctors are

708
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: seeing more and more people come into their offices asking

709
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: about something related to birth control that they saw on TikTok.

710
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: One doctor says, people are putting themselves out there experts

711
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: on birth control and speaking to things that the science

712
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: does not bear out. I'm seeing the direct failures of

713
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: this misinformation. He says that women frequently come into his

714
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: office for abortions after believing what they saw on social

715
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: media about the dangers of hormonal birth control and the

716
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: effectiveness of tracking periods to prevent pregnancy. Many of these

717
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: patients have traveled from states that have completely or partially

718
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: banned abortions, such as Texas, Idaho, Georgia, North Carolina, and

719
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: South Carolina. And we really can't even have this conversation

720
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: without talking about how it is supported by algorithms, because

721
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: algorithms really, I mean, if you've ever scrolled on TikTok,

722
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: you probably know what I'm talking about. It really supports

723
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: people to be surfaced information that is similar or somatically

724
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: similar to what they just watched, right, And so rather

725
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: than giving them some sort of an alternate viewpoint, it

726
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: just completely builds up this rabbit hole and buries them

727
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: in it. A twenty year old college student who went

728
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: down an algorithmically supported rabbit hole on birth control misinformation

729
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: said it created the sense of fear that if I

730
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: ever needed to be put on birth control, I would

731
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: become a completely different person. I would gain a bunch

732
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: of weight, and my life would be over. I was like, well,

733
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: obviously this is true. This applies to everybody because it's

734
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: the only thing I'm seeing. So I do think that

735
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: platforms bear some responsibility here to make sure that the

736
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: people that use their platforms are not just being sent

737
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: down more and more extremist, dangerous rabbit holes when it

738
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 1: comes to something as important as their reproductive health.

739
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure would be nice.

740
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: And I do think that, like this is related to

741
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: something I feel I've seen more and more where people

742
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: I just feel like there is a subset of people

743
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: who will believe absolutely anything they see on TikTok.

744
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

745
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 3: I think that's probably right, and I don't think it's

746
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 3: limited to TikTok. We've talked about this a lot, but

747
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: and definitely digital literacy is a big thing. But I think,

748
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 3: you know, we should be you really careful not to

749
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 3: put it on the people who are you know, digitally

750
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 3: illiterate and being swayed by this information and keep the

751
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 3: focus on the people who are pushing it. Like so, I,

752
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 3: you know, saw that we were going to talk about

753
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 3: this today, and I had this big question, like who

754
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: are these people and what is their motivation for pushing

755
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 3: this misinformation? Right? We talked about misinformation on this show

756
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 3: a lot, you know, like political misinformation or disingenuous accounts

757
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 3: that are trying to create racial disharmonies. To like destabilize things.

758
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 3: But this one really like got me. It's like, what

759
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 3: sort of monster would push anti birth control information?

760
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 2: And why?

761
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: And you know, I guess you provided a couple of

762
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: pretty good explanations here. The just like the engagement farming

763
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 3: of it, it gets.

764
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: It gets engagement and people who have a financial investment

765
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: in it. So if I'm selling hormonal supplements and I'm like, oh,

766
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: hormonal birth control is bad. If you hate it, you've

767
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: ruined your your hormonal system. But if you buy my pills,

768
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: we can get this back on track.

769
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: Money please, Yeah.

770
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 3: And then also the it connects to stuff we talked

771
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 3: about before. It feels like there's a big effort, largely

772
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 3: on the right, but not limited to the right, to

773
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 3: just discredit the medical and scientific community in general and

774
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 3: just destroy the idea of expertise and promote the idea

775
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: that every influencer can be their own expert and do

776
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 3: their own research.

777
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 5: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

778
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: Well, the piece really does a good job of speaking

779
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: to doctors who are looking inward at the medical profession

780
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: and wondering like, have we created this problem by failing

781
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: to have transparency and failing to make patients, many of

782
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: whom are women, feel like we are adequately listening to

783
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: them and answering their questions are And I would argue that,

784
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: like typically speaking, when you have some sort of dynamic

785
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: like this where bad actors and bs influencers and grifters

786
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: are able to really take up a lot of space,

787
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: there is some like institutional failing that has allowed those

788
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: people to take up so much space in a conversation.

789
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: And I think that's really what we're seeing, Like people

790
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: women when it comes to reproductive health, women have historically

791
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: not really been listened to. There's an entire legacy and

792
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: history of the medical community not listening to and not

793
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: thinking seriously the pain and issues of women. And you know,

794
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: we also live in a world where any healthcare that

795
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: is about people who are not cisgendered men. So when

796
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: it comes to queer people or trans people that I

797
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: think that that is like inherently othered. And so I

798
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 1: think that these doctors are not wrong to be like, well,

799
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 1: in what ways have we really failed the people who

800
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: come to us looking for care that allows for grifters

801
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: and extremists to take over the conversation and for that

802
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 1: to feel like something that is actually accurate. But I

803
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: do think that you're right that there is this larger

804
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: demonization of expertise and medical professionals and people who know

805
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. That report talked to this, I guess,

806
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: like some sort of hormonal influencer who had her content

807
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: taken down from TikTok for being medical misinformation, and she

808
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: was like, oh, well, I actually think it's fine to

809
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: take it down because I think that people should be

810
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: doing their own research. And it's like, well, yes, but

811
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: if you're not a doctor, doing your own research into

812
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: medical information is kind of a tall order, right, Like,

813
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: I'm not a doctor. I would not pretend to be

814
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: able to make heads or tails of medical research. And

815
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: so it's really cunning how they put it back on

816
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 1: people to really further eroad trust in the medical profession

817
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: more generally. And I think you're right that we should

818
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: not be demonizing people who fall for this, because I

819
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: think a lot of people when you're in a place

820
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: where you've just been consuming a lot of information that

821
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: is really scary, and you're already in a mental or

822
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: emotional place where you're not feeling heard, not feeling supported,

823
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: you're looking for alternative avenues for information out there. I

824
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: think that it can put anybody in a place where

825
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: they're more receptive to these kinds of grifters and extremists, right,

826
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: And it is being buttressed by an incredibly powerful algorithm

827
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: that is like pushing you toward that conclusion. Right, So

828
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: it's you you're not it's it's not just you're stupid

829
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: and gullible. There are forces that are pushing you toward it,

830
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 1: and we should be honest about that. But like, I mean,

831
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: I don't like to talk about my own health and

832
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: body stuff on the podcast because I just think it's

833
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: your people's health is so specific and unique to them

834
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: and so personal to them. But like as some of

835
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: y'all who know me in real life, no, like I

836
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: had a pretty tough go of it with COVID, and

837
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: I got COVID multiple times, and I got it one

838
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: time that was so bad that it really like it

839
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: just really like knock the wind out of my sales

840
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,439
Speaker 1: for a very long time, right, And so like long,

841
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: COVID is one of those things that I do think

842
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: that like I've gleaned that it's not the kind of

843
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 1: thing that people want to hear about and so it's

844
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: this kind of thing that you're like often dealing with

845
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: in a way that feels very isolated, because it's like,

846
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: you know, you're dealing with the symptoms, and you're dealing

847
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: with the fatigue, and you're dealing with the brain. But

848
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: then you've gleaned that people don't really want to hear

849
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: you complain about it, so then you're dealing with all

850
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: of that alone.

851
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 4: And when you're dealing.

852
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: With stuff alone, it pushes you to the Internet, which

853
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: then algorithmically supports you to fall down rabbit holes that

854
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: are not necessarily good for you and also happen to

855
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: be inclusive of people who are trying to make a

856
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: quick buck off of your issue, off of your isolation,

857
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: off of your anxieties. And so I know, I am

858
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: somebody who talks about this for a living, and even

859
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: I got pretty wrapped up in taking advice like wellness

860
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 1: and health advice from Randos on TikTok right, And so

861
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: I started like, because I felt so crummy, and because

862
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: I was so isolated in feeling crummy, it really did

863
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 1: lead me to like using social media to figure out

864
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: what was going on and figure out how I might

865
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: be better. So I started taking supplements that like randos

866
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: are suggesting you take on social media in a kind

867
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 1: of a low dark moment. Then I'm like, wait a minute,

868
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: maybe it's time for a blood to I go to

869
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,439
Speaker 1: a doctor, I get a blood test. The doctor is like, yeah,

870
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 1: whatever supplements you're on, stop taking them. They're not They're

871
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: like not doing anything for you, and they're actually making

872
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: your health worse. And so I don't feel good sharing that.

873
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: But I look back on that and I'm like, yeah,

874
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: I was at a low moment when I didn't feel

875
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: like I had a lot of support and I didn't

876
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: feel like I could really talk about what I was experiencing,

877
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 1: but was desperate for a quick fix. And it got

878
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: me right. The algorithms are powerful. The algorithms get you.

879
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: You see somebody on TikTok who looks like they have

880
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: their shit together, who like is presenting a kind of

881
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: a life or a version of yourself that you are

882
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: that you see something in and you're like, oh, I

883
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: want that to be me. Next thing, you know, you're

884
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: buying supplements and don't even fucking regulate it, And so

885
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 1: I just think that like nobody should be getting take

886
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 1: it from me. Somebody who had to see a real

887
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: doctor to straighten that out. Don't get your health or

888
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: medical advice from some rando on TikTok who might not

889
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: even have any actual qualifications or also might have an

890
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: agenda that is actually harmful to you. These people are scammers,

891
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: They are grifters. They are making money from your isolation,

892
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: from your fear, from your concern, from your worry, from

893
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 1: your late nights. The most radical thing we can do

894
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: is break that system that tells us that these people

895
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: know what we need. I know it is tough, I

896
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: know that we are silenced. I know that we're not

897
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: listened to. But like forking your money over to a

898
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: grifter is never the answer. And so back to what's

899
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: happening with these birth control grifters. None of this stuff

900
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: is happening in a vacuum because we are already seeing

901
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: legislation trying to limit access to birth control. These influencers,

902
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: their messaging really helps drive this legislation limiting access to

903
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: hormonal birth control. This is from Amanda Stevenson, a sociologist, demographer,

904
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: and assistant professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder

905
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: who is studying how anti abortion activists and lawmakers are

906
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: trying to restrict birth control already. Republican legislators in Missouri

907
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: have tried all yet unsuccessfully, to stop the state's medicaid

908
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: program from covering iud's and emergency contraceptives. A panel of

909
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit this

910
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: month upheld a Texas law requiring minders to obtain parental

911
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: permission before accessing birth control. So all of this is

912
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: sort of like working together, right, these grifters and influencers

913
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: using social media to drum up fear about birth control

914
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: and anxiety about birth control as harmful, and then right

915
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 1: wing lawmakers passing legislation to then limit and legislate birth

916
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: control more harshly.

917
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 4: It's a real clusterfuck.

918
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: So, speaking of clusterfucks, Mike, do you ever hear one

919
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: of those stories that it sounds like was made in

920
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: a lab to bother you?

921
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 4: Specifically?

922
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it happens all the time, every day.

923
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 4: So this is one of those stories for me.

924
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: Sixty years after her death, we have the invention of

925
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 1: Digital Maryland, an AI facilitated Lyn Monroe chatbot. I guess

926
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: that answers questions in Maryland's style and voice. Here's Digital

927
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: Maryland in her own words.

928
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 4: Hi, darlings, I'm Digital Maryland. Come visit me at Soul Machines.

929
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 7: It'll be such fun.

930
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 1: I hate it. I hate everything about it. I hate

931
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: the way she speaks, I hate the whole idea.

932
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 4: Hate it. Thumbs down zero out of ten.

933
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: So Digital Maryland was revealed at south By Southwest and

934
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: is the brainchild of Soul Machines, which is a company

935
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: that creates what it calls biological AI powered digital people

936
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: and Authentic Brands Group, which is a company that acquired

937
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: the rights to Marilyn Monroe's intellectual property back in twenty eighteen.

938
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: Sole Machine set in a blog post it's as if

939
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: the spark of Maryland herself has been translated into the

940
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: AI age.

941
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 2: Yikes. So how does this work? Well?

942
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: According to Deadline, Digital Maryland can interact in real time

943
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: using advanced natural language processing deep learning and open ais

944
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: chat GPT three point five, which means it is another

945
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: step forward in extending the ability to monetize celebrities even

946
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: after their death.

947
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 4: So we talked about this.

948
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: A little bit in the episode that we did about

949
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 1: the Whitney Houston hologram and her residency in Las Vegas.

950
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: But Soul Machines is clear that this is another step

951
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: forward in terms of celebrities or their like AI likeness

952
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: being able to connect with consumers on behalf of brands.

953
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: They say this collaboration exemplifies the transformative power of AI

954
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: in connecting brands and consumers. Digital Maryland showcases our biological

955
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: AI bringing an iconic personality to life through engaging dialogues

956
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: and emotional intelligence. It's more than nostalgia. It's a glimpse

957
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: into the future of immersive interactions.

958
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 2: Oh, Bridget, why do you hate this so much?

959
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 4: Great question?

960
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,919
Speaker 1: Well, I think part of the reason why I hate

961
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: it so much is the same reason why the Whitney

962
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: Houston hologram I hate that so much. Is because we're

963
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: talking about women who spent their entire lives being exploited

964
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: by men, and that I just see that exploitation continuing

965
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: after their deaths. Like, did you know that Hugh Hefner

966
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 1: is buried in the burial plot above Marilyn Monroe? He

967
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: bought it after she died because he, as he said, quote,

968
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: spending eternity next to Maryland is an opportunity too sweet

969
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: to pass up.

970
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 4: This was somebody who.

971
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: Financially and sexually exploited Marilyn Monroe all the time when

972
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: she was still alive, totally cut her out of the

973
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: profits for her own likeness, using his money to basically

974
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: supend eternity on top of her even in death. And

975
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: so I hate that, and I just see this AI

976
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: reimagining of these celebrities as another iteration of that. I

977
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: hate that they have yet another way to flatten out

978
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 1: these iconic people who lived and existed and were dynamic

979
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: and complicated into these like AI tech enabled caricatures of themselves.

980
00:53:58,160 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 4: I find it really gross.

981
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 1: We've covered this happening on the show before, like that

982
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: George Carlin AI enabled stand up impersonation. The family of

983
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 1: Robin Williams has also really been clear that they don't

984
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: appreciate AI imitations of his likeness. I just think, you know,

985
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: even though in this situation, this company, it sounds like,

986
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: did purchase the intellectual property of marily Monroe's likeness fair

987
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: and square, I just think that it grosses me out

988
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: to think of a celebrity, especially a woman who was

989
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: exploited for most of her life, having her likeness controlled

990
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: by a group of tech gros who unveil it at

991
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: south By Southwest like a.

992
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 4: Side show for all eternity.

993
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: I just don't like it, and I think in all

994
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: the different ways that we have seen AI be used,

995
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: it's not lost on me that some of the first

996
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: are how can we use it to exploit women?

997
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 4: I just don't like it.

998
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it does feel gross. I guess it's not

999
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 3: surprising the tests were ah got started?

1000
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, yup, yuck is right. But you know what, I

1001
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 4: don't hate?

1002
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: What's that breaking down all of these internet and tech

1003
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 1: stories with you?

1004
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 7: Mike.

1005
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here.

1006
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Bridget.

1007
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: And thanks to all of you for listening. I will

1008
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 1: see you on the Internet. If you're looking for ways

1009
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: to support the show, check out our merch store at

1010
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 1: tangoti dot com slash store. Got a story about an

1011
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi?

1012
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at teangody dot com.

1013
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at TENG

1014
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: Goody dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet

1015
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: was created by me Bridget Todd. It's a production of

1016
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative, edited by Joey Pat Jonathan Strickland

1017
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

1018
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,959
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almada is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1019
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1020
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1021
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1022
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.

1023
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 7: Have to w