Speaker 1: Hi, This is Malan vervare and this is Kim Azarelli.
Speaker 1: We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Speaker 1: Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose, and you're listening to
Speaker 1: Seneca's conversations on power and Purpose. Welcome to this special edition.
Speaker 1: This new six part series called Getting to Equal will
Speaker 1: change the way you think about women and leadership, and
Speaker 1: it comes at a time when women's leadership has never
Speaker 1: been more crucial. We have two amazing leaders who are
Speaker 1: guest hosting these six episodes, Carol and Tastad, Group President
Speaker 1: North America and Diana Bass, Vice President Global Diversity, Equality
Speaker 1: and Inclusion, both from PNG, one of the largest consumer
Speaker 1: goods companies in the world. Together, Caroline and Diana have
Speaker 1: created an impressive gender equality strategy for PNG, and it's
Speaker 1: a strategy that's really breaking new ground on these issues
Speaker 1: in the private sector. And they'll be joined by incredible
Speaker 1: guests from all walks of life. In today's episode of
Speaker 1: Getting to Equal, Caroline and Diana talk about racial equality
Speaker 1: and the path to getting there in the workplace and
Speaker 1: in the world, and they have two amazing guests, spoken
Speaker 1: word poet, author and podcaster Amina Brown and author, consultant
Speaker 1: and speaker Tara J. Frank Caroline, Indiana. I'm so glad
Speaker 1: you could join us again today and I'm really looking
Speaker 1: forward to this conversation. Thank you, Kim, and hello everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome to this episode of Getting to Equal. We have
Speaker 1: such a special conversation today with two incredible women. Amina
Speaker 1: Brown is a spoken word poet, author, and performing artist
Speaker 1: whose work inter weaves keep It Real, storytelling, rhyme, and humor.
Speaker 1: Through her weekly podcast, Her with Amina Brown, Amina centers
Speaker 1: and elevates the voices, stories and experiences of Black, Indigenous,
Speaker 1: Asian and Latin X women. Tara J. Frank is a
Speaker 1: sought after consultant, speaker and author. Through her company t
Speaker 1: j F Career Modeling, she helps leaders and organizations define
Speaker 1: a vision and develop strategies to advance their culture and
Speaker 1: leadership goals. Tara is also the visionary behind hashtag more
Speaker 1: Than a Movement and not for profit to facilitate deeper
Speaker 1: understanding between disconnected people. Amina and Tara, I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to have you here, Welcome to our podcast. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me, happy to be here. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today. You know, Tara PNGNG, we've been
Speaker 1: working with you on a couple of fronts, including the
Speaker 1: Open Doors program, which is all about accelerating progress for
Speaker 1: multicultural women within the workplace. And through that work, you
Speaker 1: shared with us a really interesting analogy that gives us
Speaker 1: a framework for how to think about this. Can you
Speaker 1: share that analogy with us? Absolutely? And you know, one
Speaker 1: of the things we often talk about when we just
Speaker 1: have the discussion around women and work is how do
Speaker 1: we need to better equip them to succeed? But the
Speaker 1: way I think about this is there's there's the vine right,
Speaker 1: which might be the individual woman or employee, But there's
Speaker 1: also the vineyard, which to me is the micro culture, right,
Speaker 1: the company culture, the systems, etcetera. Um. And thirdly, there's
Speaker 1: the climate, the macro climate, which is really society, you know,
Speaker 1: and what's going on outside of our workplaces, in our
Speaker 1: lives are daily lives. Chara, Let's go a little deeper
Speaker 1: on that, because I think the analogy is a great one,
Speaker 1: But that whole notion of the individual, the workplace and
Speaker 1: society and the community around let's just take that a
Speaker 1: little deeper. Yeah, for sure. Now is honestly such an
Speaker 1: interesting time to be having a conversation like this because
Speaker 1: you know, I've been in women's leadership work for quite
Speaker 1: a few years now, um, and the one thing I've
Speaker 1: been saying for a while is, you know, this is
Speaker 1: not this is not about just developing women. It's not
Speaker 1: about um, teaching them how to you know, develop executive presence.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not just about helping them to devise
Speaker 1: their personal development plan. That's that's one thing, um and
Speaker 1: certainly necessary, but it can't do much to break through
Speaker 1: a system or a culture that is so fibrous that
Speaker 1: it's essentially preventing them from breaking through to higher levels
Speaker 1: of leadership. And so that you know, the vineyard is
Speaker 1: really to me, is the soil fertile right? Is the
Speaker 1: soil fertile for those women to pride and to grow
Speaker 1: and to continue to succeed or is it essentially kind
Speaker 1: of choking out that potential right unconsciously sometimes? And then
Speaker 1: to your point, you think about the climate around that,
Speaker 1: in the conditions that we're all seeing around us today
Speaker 1: in terms of social justice, and that puts even more
Speaker 1: pressure on the individual in terms of everything that they're
Speaker 1: coping with, we're dealing with, and uh, it makes it
Speaker 1: even more difficult. Yeah, it's an added burden, you know.
Speaker 1: For sure. I always say that we walk into work.
Speaker 1: Well these days, of course, we don't walk into work.
Speaker 1: We call into work. But you know, we show up
Speaker 1: at work as human beings first, you know, and employees
Speaker 1: and leaders second. UM. And so the the human piece
Speaker 1: of this is that none of us can detach ourselves
Speaker 1: from what's going on in our everyday lives, from what's
Speaker 1: happening with our families, from what's happening you know, on
Speaker 1: the television and politics in the world in general, and
Speaker 1: so we all kind of carry that weight with us
Speaker 1: wherever we go. You know, they always say wherever you go,
Speaker 1: there you are. UM. And these days, especially as we
Speaker 1: kind of talk about race in America for multicultural women,
Speaker 1: for black women specifically, UM, all of that comes with
Speaker 1: us everywhere we go. So that climate is really I
Speaker 1: think changing what what the responsibility of companies and company cultures,
Speaker 1: UM is kind of involving to be right now, that's
Speaker 1: such great work, Tara. You know, it's been really important
Speaker 1: to us at PNG as you've come in and spread
Speaker 1: your magic around the walls of PNG. It's been amazing.
Speaker 1: I wanna, UM, I want to introduce Amina now, and Amina,
Speaker 1: you are spoken word poet, an author, a podcaster, and
Speaker 1: we had the chance to host you in Cincinnati at
Speaker 1: an International Women's Day event this year, and I have
Speaker 1: to tell you, you you closed out this event that we
Speaker 1: had with one of your spoken word poems and we
Speaker 1: got to the end of what you said, and the
Speaker 1: there were three fifty of us in the audience, and
Speaker 1: there was this active Do I jump up in uproarious
Speaker 1: applause or do I sit in silent awe at what
Speaker 1: just came out of you? And I think we collectively
Speaker 1: all had the pause and then the eruption. It was
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful things I have ever witnessed.
Speaker 1: So I am so happy to have you here. That's
Speaker 1: my little love letter to you today. I received that.
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about your work about
Speaker 1: you know, the work that you do is really centered
Speaker 1: on elevating the voices of women of color. Yeah, someone
Speaker 1: asked me. I get this question all the time, people say,
Speaker 1: you know, how do you find hope right now? And
Speaker 1: I always say, I find hope in the work of
Speaker 1: women of color, because if we're looking in our workspaces
Speaker 1: and our communal spaces, anywhere we look where there's good
Speaker 1: being done, so much of that work is being led
Speaker 1: by women of color. So I wanted to sort of
Speaker 1: have a platform of my own where I could say,
Speaker 1: here's a place where I can elevate the stories of
Speaker 1: women who get to tell their own stories in their
Speaker 1: own voices, who are the experts, who are the people
Speaker 1: who know and instead of them being sort of pushed
Speaker 1: back to the side or being on the outskirts of
Speaker 1: a situation and sort of yelling in the back. You know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been in a lot of rooms where
Speaker 1: I looked around and when where are the women of color?
Speaker 1: And it's not the women of color are hard to find.
Speaker 1: It's not that the women of color aren't leading, it's
Speaker 1: that they are not getting the microphone as much as
Speaker 1: they should. So for me, that's very central in my
Speaker 1: writing as well as obviously very central to my podcast.
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, i'd have to wait for
Speaker 1: anybody to give me a microphone. I'm gonna grab a
Speaker 1: mic and give it to the women that I want
Speaker 1: to have the microphone. And that is podcasting as book
Speaker 1: word poetry in essence. I you know, it's um in Uh.
Speaker 1: First of all, after I saw you back in March
Speaker 1: and then just in preparation of having this conversation, I
Speaker 1: U have been, you know, a student of her with
Speaker 1: Amina Brown. It's just really amazing work and beautiful stories
Speaker 1: that you're allowing to come forward and allowing, you know,
Speaker 1: people to sit in and listen and learn. Um in
Speaker 1: these really crazy times that were in Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's been really important to me too to make sure
Speaker 1: that women of color and marginalized women are not tokenized
Speaker 1: in the process. UM. So sure, I could have just
Speaker 1: brought a black woman on and say, here, tell me
Speaker 1: what it's like to be a black woman, but she's
Speaker 1: also an entrepreneur, or she's also a business owner, or
Speaker 1: she's also in the C suite. You know, there's so
Speaker 1: many experiences that women of color have and I want
Speaker 1: to hear from them as as the experts, as the
Speaker 1: people with knowledge, and that gives us an opportunity to
Speaker 1: sit in front of them and learn. And I think
Speaker 1: that is a beautiful thing. I think that is also justice.
Speaker 1: You know, when we were um talking about doing this
Speaker 1: podcast together, the four of us, um uh, kind of
Speaker 1: working through what where did we want the center of
Speaker 1: this podcast to be? And you both talked about the
Speaker 1: amazing experience of being a black woman leader in this
Speaker 1: moment in time. UM. I mean I think the words
Speaker 1: that you used were UM, rooted in community, uh, challenging, hopeful. UM.
Speaker 1: I'd love to talk a little bit more about that,
Speaker 1: because I think there's something for all of us to
Speaker 1: learn in what the two of you are experiencing right now.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things I think about is,
Speaker 1: you know, Tara and I were first meeting. Even though
Speaker 1: I knew of her work, I didn't know her until
Speaker 1: that day we were meeting there in Cincinnati, and it
Speaker 1: was beautiful to me just to see her as a
Speaker 1: black woman thriving and to learn from her and to
Speaker 1: watch her lead. And then after that when she said
Speaker 1: she and I both graduated from Spellman College, I just
Speaker 1: could have jumped out of all of my skin. I
Speaker 1: was so happy about that, you know. And I think
Speaker 1: when I think about my time at Spellman and even
Speaker 1: before going to Spellman, thinking about the black women who
Speaker 1: were leading in my community, the black women who lead
Speaker 1: in my family, you know, it is it is those
Speaker 1: women that came before me. It is the heritage and
Speaker 1: the legacy of the women who come before me that
Speaker 1: give me the confidence, the hope, the courage to be
Speaker 1: myself in the spaces that I am in now. So
Speaker 1: that was this beautiful, serendipitous moment for me to see
Speaker 1: my sister as a fellow black woman, to see my
Speaker 1: sister as a spellman sister. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: part of what thriving right now is to me. It's
Speaker 1: it's women being in community together. It's deciding we do
Speaker 1: this together. We build each other up, we encourage each other,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I love that. One of my one
Speaker 1: of the things I've been thinking about lately is the
Speaker 1: fact that we've been talking for a long time, right,
Speaker 1: We've been sharing stories and sharing ideas and are in
Speaker 1: content right trying to inform and inspire, um certainly educate
Speaker 1: for years. But people are listening in new ways right now,
Speaker 1: you know, which for me makes it all the more
Speaker 1: important that what we're saying count um. And so in
Speaker 1: my opinion, you know, I've been the most bold, honestly
Speaker 1: with my language, right, with my calls to action, um,
Speaker 1: with my accountability conversation. I've been more bold over these
Speaker 1: last few months than I think I've ever been. And
Speaker 1: I never considered myself shy, right or I never thought
Speaker 1: of myself as kind of holding back, but it's one
Speaker 1: of those things where where the light when the light
Speaker 1: is on you for that period of time, because I mean,
Speaker 1: let's be honest, we don't know how long this particular
Speaker 1: light is going to last. Right where I think all
Speaker 1: of us are kind of sitting back like hopefully this
Speaker 1: is a movement and not a moment, but hard to note. Um,
Speaker 1: So while we're in this space together, there are some
Speaker 1: things that need to be said right and a lot
Speaker 1: of people who need to hear them. So that's that's
Speaker 1: kind of part of the stepping into this moment, I think,
Speaker 1: as well, and doing so as as courageously as humanly possible.
Speaker 1: So Tara, I love this notion of listening in new
Speaker 1: ways and listening right now and taking advantage of the
Speaker 1: moment that is now. And from a P and G side,
Speaker 1: we want equality for all women and we see this
Speaker 1: as the responsibility of all leaders to deliver that. Uh.
Speaker 1: And when we talk about all women we want to
Speaker 1: make we we think about that from a multicultural standpoint
Speaker 1: in LGBTQ, people with disabilities in any way and in
Speaker 1: any spirit, in how somebody would identify themselves and define themselves.
Speaker 1: And this notion of having a really courageous conversation right
Speaker 1: now and really addressing um, I'll go back to the
Speaker 1: vineyard analogy, but addressing the culture, addressing conditions in the
Speaker 1: environment that exists in order to make the those conditions
Speaker 1: UM conducive to change into advancement and development of multicultural
Speaker 1: women within the workplace. How do we drive that accountability?
Speaker 1: You know, what are the conversations in your mind that
Speaker 1: we need to be having more overtly today now, taking
Speaker 1: advantage of this moment and driving that, driving that sense
Speaker 1: of accountability to make real and meaningful progress. Such a
Speaker 1: good question, Caroline, And honestly, I'm trying to tease apart,
Speaker 1: you know, the bugs that are popping into my head
Speaker 1: right now and in response to that frame, because there
Speaker 1: are so many important ideas there. I think one critical
Speaker 1: idea is this whole um concept of kind of the
Speaker 1: fence that are right. Any time we're in the midst
Speaker 1: of some kind of major change, there are always people
Speaker 1: who are on the front end of that change, you know,
Speaker 1: let's go, I'm ready. There are always people on the
Speaker 1: other end of that change, digging their heels in right
Speaker 1: kind of more of a preservation mental city, really trying
Speaker 1: to protect themselves, their power, their position. And then there
Speaker 1: are usually a bunch of people in the middle, quite honestly,
Speaker 1: who I think historically have have sat there and observed
Speaker 1: what's going on in the world right maybe relative to
Speaker 1: the lack of equal opportunity, and potentially, you know, felt
Speaker 1: empathetic toward folks who were who were being marginalized, but
Speaker 1: not necessarily that they were responsible for being part of
Speaker 1: that transformation. And so for me, one of the encouraging
Speaker 1: things is there are a lot more people who have
Speaker 1: been sitting on the fence, and again I'm not suggesting
Speaker 1: it's malicious, but sitting on the fence as a bystander,
Speaker 1: who are realizing now that standing by is not a
Speaker 1: strategy for change um and that they have to be
Speaker 1: as responsible for this evolution as women are right, as
Speaker 1: as black women have been, as women of color have been.
Speaker 1: The other piece of this is we have got to
Speaker 1: change our leadership definition right, how we define leadership and
Speaker 1: how we hold people accountable. Because the work ahead of us,
Speaker 1: in my mind, is not simply diversity work. It's not
Speaker 1: simply inclusion work or equity work. It's leadership work and
Speaker 1: and the fact that many companies have had for years,
Speaker 1: and I know you know this to be true. It's
Speaker 1: it's true in most companies I work with back in
Speaker 1: the day, right, they have two or three people who
Speaker 1: make up their diversity team who were supposed to write
Speaker 1: create somehow magically equal opportunity for the thousands on thousands
Speaker 1: of people in the organization. That's not their job alone
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, that's ridiculous when you think about it. Right,
Speaker 1: So this is leadership responsibility. Then we wonder why we
Speaker 1: don't make progress exactly because it is the role of
Speaker 1: all leaders. It has to be the work of all leaders. Yes,
Speaker 1: And it's really you know, we all talk about building
Speaker 1: the very best team using all of the available talent,
Speaker 1: not part of the talent available. And it's so important
Speaker 1: because we know time and time and time again, when
Speaker 1: we do that, everything gets better. Everything gets better, the
Speaker 1: culture gets better, the workplace gets better, the relationships build,
Speaker 1: the business gets better. Everything gets better. Absolutely, And I
Speaker 1: mean give us your perspective on that. I mean, I
Speaker 1: I just agree with Tara On on the idea that
Speaker 1: this is going to require some work, especially for the
Speaker 1: people who are in the most empowered and the most
Speaker 1: privileged of positions. It's going to require some strategy. I
Speaker 1: think it's really important. That's how I used that word.
Speaker 1: I think in sentiment, you know, especially when you know
Speaker 1: I joke with a lot of my friends when you
Speaker 1: know we were starting to see this you know, global uprising,
Speaker 1: this national uprising of justice happening, uh in America. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh man, some people just woke up today
Speaker 1: and we're like, America, wait, things, things that are racist
Speaker 1: are happening here, Like we are just waking Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I can't believe this place is racist. So then some
Speaker 1: people felt like, oh, I get in my feelings. I
Speaker 1: don't want to be racist. I don't want to be
Speaker 1: a part of things that are racist. And those are
Speaker 1: good feelings to start with, but it's not the place
Speaker 1: to end there with how our feelings are and that
Speaker 1: we want to cry. There are things going on that
Speaker 1: do make us cry, But if we don't have strategy
Speaker 1: for how we are actually going to affect change, then
Speaker 1: all we've done is cry, and we've just wiped our
Speaker 1: eyes and we've moved on, and the people whose voices
Speaker 1: should be heard are still not being heard. The people
Speaker 1: who have been railing against things and wanting things to
Speaker 1: change long before it was in vogue to say so,
Speaker 1: have been yelling in the back. We haven't been listening
Speaker 1: to them. So it is a question of if we
Speaker 1: are in leadership, what is our strategy? And I would
Speaker 1: say uh to white leaders as well, to think about
Speaker 1: this in a business sense, what is the business strategy?
Speaker 1: If you're truly saying well, we better put up our
Speaker 1: anti racist statement on social media, well what's the strategy
Speaker 1: behind that? And then will you do that personally? Also,
Speaker 1: because if you go into work and you say, well,
Speaker 1: I want to have a strategy that I want this
Speaker 1: to be a more equitable place, but you don't find
Speaker 1: yourself being equitable in the other areas of your life,
Speaker 1: then that will also come to bear. You know. We
Speaker 1: need to do both of them, Yeah, for sure. And
Speaker 1: I do know too, you know, because I I work
Speaker 1: with mostly white people. Honestly, you know, day in and
Speaker 1: day out, who are I think trying to get educated
Speaker 1: quite frankly right about what's going on in America, the
Speaker 1: history of race in America, the impact of racism in
Speaker 1: America through the centuries, And I can appreciate that. But
Speaker 1: one of the one of the things I say to
Speaker 1: them is, you know, this is to your point. I mean,
Speaker 1: and this is about what's now what do we do now? Right?
Speaker 1: This is about your role in our shared evolution, and
Speaker 1: you have to have a role and it has to
Speaker 1: be active. So one of the things that I took
Speaker 1: people all the time is your good intent is not enough.
Speaker 1: Like I can't tell you how many lovely, warm, sweet
Speaker 1: folks I've talked to over the years who say, well,
Speaker 1: we don't really feel like we need to set targets
Speaker 1: to achieve representation or that you know, that's not really
Speaker 1: on brand for us. Um, we believe we know what
Speaker 1: we need to do. We need to make progress and
Speaker 1: change and we're going to do that. Everyone's heart is
Speaker 1: in the right place, And I said, this has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with your heart, like it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: great to have a good heart, But a business imperative
Speaker 1: has teeth. We we all know this, right where businesswomen,
Speaker 1: you've never set a customer goal for instance, right, or
Speaker 1: an r OI goal and just said, we all want
Speaker 1: to increase that r o I as high as we
Speaker 1: possibly can, and because we care about doing it, we're
Speaker 1: just going to care our way to that goal in
Speaker 1: a year from now, we're gonna feel great about our outcomes.
Speaker 1: That's not how that works. We all know it right now.
Speaker 1: You're you're so right, Tara, You're so right. I mean,
Speaker 1: I love what you just said. We can't care our
Speaker 1: way to a new reality. We have to be intentional.
Speaker 1: We say that all the time. Intentionality is so important.
Speaker 1: We have to provide opportunities, experiences, development for our total
Speaker 1: talent pool. And then we have to hold ourselves accountable
Speaker 1: to the goals that we set, just as we would
Speaker 1: with any business strategy. And we know that when we
Speaker 1: do that, good things happen. And that's leadership it is.
Speaker 1: You know, we have very talented leaders in our company, Black, Hispanic, Asian, American,
Speaker 1: many others with huge responsibilities running big businesses, having in
Speaker 1: no mist impact. And importantly, we've declared our aspiration to
Speaker 1: have multicultural representation at every level of our company in
Speaker 1: the US. I was there. I was there. It was
Speaker 1: a beautiful day to hear you say it out loud
Speaker 1: in front of everybody. You were there, and it was
Speaker 1: a great day. And we know it's important. We have
Speaker 1: the most diverse leadership in our company history and our
Speaker 1: business has never been stronger. As we've increased the diversity
Speaker 1: of our leadership, our culture stronger, we're more inclusive. Do
Speaker 1: we have more to do, for sure, but we're making
Speaker 1: great progress. You have proof points. I mean you as
Speaker 1: an organization have proof points. This is not a guessing
Speaker 1: game for you, right This is not a wing and
Speaker 1: a prayer, absolutely not proven strategy. We'll be back after
Speaker 1: this break. So I want to I want to shift
Speaker 1: gears just ever so slightly here and I wanted to
Speaker 1: this again is coming back to some of the conversations
Speaker 1: that we were having in preparation for this conversation. And
Speaker 1: you know, after the deaths of George Floyd and Brianna
Speaker 1: Taylor and so many other black men and women really
Speaker 1: this past spring, Tar you said earlier, suddenly white people
Speaker 1: were paying attention that there's a there's a spotlight right now.
Speaker 1: And I would agree with you, and there's probably a
Speaker 1: lot of reasons why the spotlight is so bright right now,
Speaker 1: but you all you two also talked about the impact
Speaker 1: of of the white population reaching out to you personally,
Speaker 1: to the black community with questions like what what can
Speaker 1: I do? What should I do UM? And you had
Speaker 1: really I think meaningful responses to that, I'd love for
Speaker 1: you to share. UM. It's a it's a lot of
Speaker 1: lawyers when I think about this question, because A is
Speaker 1: in the moment of the murders of George Floyd and
Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor. It was a lot of multitasking. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of anger and grief in my own body and
Speaker 1: my own fears and thoughts about what it means for
Speaker 1: me to be asleep in my home or what it
Speaker 1: means for me to be out doing what is a
Speaker 1: normal thing, and that I could be murdered in the
Speaker 1: same way that so many black people have been murdered.
Speaker 1: So it's carrying that. It's that layer. It's the other
Speaker 1: black people who are in community with me, who are
Speaker 1: also grieving and angry and some numb and not even
Speaker 1: knowing how to process all of it. It's getting those calls, right.
Speaker 1: So then on top of that, to be getting texts
Speaker 1: or calls from white people asking what can I do
Speaker 1: UM that may seem like a very simple question to
Speaker 1: them can be additional burden for me. So what I've
Speaker 1: had to learn, first of all, is that there are
Speaker 1: some white people in my life that I have that
Speaker 1: I've earned the trust with me. But I'll have to say,
Speaker 1: even after we talked about this, I thought about it,
Speaker 1: and I said, all of the white people in my
Speaker 1: life who I trust, who earned the trust with me,
Speaker 1: their texts and calls said, can I help you? How
Speaker 1: can I support you? Right now? Tell me what you need?
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it food I can send to your house.
Speaker 1: I wish the world weren't like this. Can I can
Speaker 1: I send you something in your cash app? I literally
Speaker 1: had those kind of texts. So actually, the white people
Speaker 1: in my life who have earned trust with me didn't
Speaker 1: ask me to do anything for them. Now, there were
Speaker 1: white people in my life who may have been work
Speaker 1: colleagues or we had more tangential type relationship, and I
Speaker 1: did get some of those messages, and for me, I
Speaker 1: had to say, I cannot answer that question for you
Speaker 1: right now because I am too full of grief. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so I here, I might have a couple of
Speaker 1: things here, maybe start with this organization here, may be
Speaker 1: look through these things, but I just have to sit
Speaker 1: in this grief right now. So I cannot be the
Speaker 1: teacher and I cannot be the educator and I cannot
Speaker 1: build a bridge with you right now because I'm just
Speaker 1: doing what I can to get out of bed. You know.
Speaker 1: So I think it's important for for white people who
Speaker 1: are coming to a moment of going okay. I realized
Speaker 1: there are some things I didn't grow up understanding. There
Speaker 1: are some things I'm still needing to learn. I think
Speaker 1: that can be an important place to go. I think
Speaker 1: as much as you can, unless you have been given
Speaker 1: an invitation by a black person in your life, try
Speaker 1: to begin that work on your own. Even when you
Speaker 1: enter a conversation with a black person wanting to ask
Speaker 1: them their thoughts about what you can do, enter the
Speaker 1: conversation having done some work so that you don't put
Speaker 1: undue burden on them while they are trying to literally
Speaker 1: survive in America. You know. So that's sort of how
Speaker 1: I think about that question, and what what are your thoughts, Tara?
Speaker 1: I love that right when all of this was going
Speaker 1: on in the beginning, I kind of wrote this little
Speaker 1: piece on LinkedIn and I said, you know, you'll have
Speaker 1: to forgive us. We've spent years, uh compartmentalizing all of
Speaker 1: the part you know, the aspects of our lives and
Speaker 1: kind of tying it up with a bow, putting it
Speaker 1: in a box, putting the lid on, sign it up,
Speaker 1: putting it up on a shelf, so that we can
Speaker 1: go into the workplace and be successful. And when this happened,
Speaker 1: it kind of it's the equivalent of, you know, someone
Speaker 1: unceremoniously knocking that box off the shelf. The bow comes undone,
Speaker 1: and all of the contents went flying into the air,
Speaker 1: um and got in our eyes right and and we
Speaker 1: were honestly trying to see our way through it as
Speaker 1: they were trying to figure out what it meant to them. Um.
Speaker 1: And so all of that was real, you know, the
Speaker 1: grief was real, The weight of it was real. I think,
Speaker 1: for me, what's different, um, you know, But I like
Speaker 1: to be very practical and pointed about this. What's different
Speaker 1: is this is the work I've chosen to do. My
Speaker 1: my professional life, right is rooted in building these kinds
Speaker 1: of bridges and helping white people understand black people, in helping,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes black people quite frankly understand white people,
Speaker 1: you know, and in identifying in whatever meaningful ways I
Speaker 1: can the common ground from which we can move forward together.
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you the the the infractions against people
Speaker 1: like me who are in this work is that some
Speaker 1: people would reach out and basically say, hey, can you
Speaker 1: join us for this conversation? Can you come to our company,
Speaker 1: come and webinar um and and spend an hour with
Speaker 1: us and just talk about this. And someone actually sent
Speaker 1: me a note and said, can you come do this
Speaker 1: for us for an hour? We don't really have any budget,
Speaker 1: but we're happy to donate to a cause that me
Speaker 1: something to you. No, no right that those were the
Speaker 1: insults for me that look, this is my work. This
Speaker 1: is how I make a living, you know, this is
Speaker 1: how I add value to the world. And I have
Speaker 1: a lot of experience and I'm damn good at it
Speaker 1: if I do say so myself. And so the biggest insult,
Speaker 1: right anyone could I think put on one of us
Speaker 1: right now is to ask us to bring our pain
Speaker 1: and our grief and our reality along with our insight
Speaker 1: about how other people can get better to them for free.
Speaker 1: And that was happening a lot. It feels it's very
Speaker 1: um gosh, it's almost manipulative because it's um I can't
Speaker 1: think of another word for it, but it's it's in
Speaker 1: the midst of grief, saying, well, because this is a
Speaker 1: whole moment of emotion, then it's not business. Yeah, it's violating,
Speaker 1: honestly is what it is. It's it's violating. Oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: very I mean, Atar, I remember the op ed that
Speaker 1: you wrote and we distributed that broadly in our organization
Speaker 1: because your op ed was dear white people do something,
Speaker 1: and I thought it was fabulous. So for anybody listening,
Speaker 1: look it up, tar J Frank, dear white people do something.
Speaker 1: I think the other thing that UM I was thinking
Speaker 1: about UM as I was listening to the two of
Speaker 1: you talk, I mean this. You know, I don't mean
Speaker 1: to be naive to say, oh, it just happened in
Speaker 1: the spring, And it didn't just happen to the spring.
Speaker 1: We're in a wave after wave after wave, and this
Speaker 1: is the most recent wave. But I think there's some
Speaker 1: reflection that white people need to do. And you know,
Speaker 1: if I'm honest with myself, I've been both of the people.
Speaker 1: I've been the person with the relationship with the call
Speaker 1: that says what do you need for me? Right there?
Speaker 1: I am by your side because it was coming from
Speaker 1: a place of love, of mutual respect, of relationship and
Speaker 1: I also was the person that called and said, what
Speaker 1: what without the relationship? I mean, I mean, it's really
Speaker 1: you have reframed something for me in this conversation that
Speaker 1: I didn't really take in. UM, and I think we've
Speaker 1: all done that. UM. I think I think we all
Speaker 1: have to find ourselves on this continuum. You know, the
Speaker 1: same conversation we were having the other day. This whole
Speaker 1: notion of people who UM and I don't know which
Speaker 1: probably put probably put them in the middle bucket. People
Speaker 1: who say, I want to be a good person, so
Speaker 1: I don't want to make the situation worse. But you know,
Speaker 1: this notion of I want to be a good person
Speaker 1: and I don't want to make it worse, but I'm
Speaker 1: still gonna sit by the sidelines. And you know, Tara,
Speaker 1: you have said that's not enough, that's not enough, be
Speaker 1: a better person. That was Dolly Chugs um c h
Speaker 1: u g her book The People We Mean to Be
Speaker 1: UM and the premise of that, which I absolutely loved,
Speaker 1: just just you know, we we spend so much time
Speaker 1: trying to be good people that we neglect to be
Speaker 1: better people by engaging in the learning process and being
Speaker 1: vulnerable as we do so I've heard you say this before,
Speaker 1: and I love this point and that that opportunity for
Speaker 1: each of us to be a better person, not just
Speaker 1: a good person, but to be a better person by
Speaker 1: investing our time to to learn and being open to
Speaker 1: that learning. Yeah, that's great. And one of the things
Speaker 1: we talked about when we chatted about this last time
Speaker 1: is just you know, we're not a monolith, right, I
Speaker 1: mean you use that word black people, black women are
Speaker 1: not a monolith. And because one person doesn't want to
Speaker 1: help somebody through it today, um, doesn't mean that that
Speaker 1: same person won't be willing to tomorrow, or that a
Speaker 1: different person might not be willing to today. Right. It's
Speaker 1: just we're all kind of in different phases of this journey. Um,
Speaker 1: We're all being shaped by this reality continually in different ways,
Speaker 1: and and we kind of sometimes have to pop our
Speaker 1: heads up and then pop them back down right and
Speaker 1: and regenerate. It's a process. Yeah, I agree, and I
Speaker 1: loved I love hearing that first line of your op ed, Tara,
Speaker 1: Dear white people, it's fabulous, It is fabulous do something
Speaker 1: because I do think a part of it is when
Speaker 1: we when we find ourselves being the person of privilege
Speaker 1: or the people of privilege in a conversation. I think
Speaker 1: we want to look to the marginalized people to be
Speaker 1: like tell me, tell me, you know. And first of all,
Speaker 1: whether we're talking about race or not, people of color
Speaker 1: are fantastic leaders. You should be learning from them, period.
Speaker 1: Whether we are talking about race or not, you should
Speaker 1: be thinking about that when you think about the books
Speaker 1: you read about leadership, when you think about the books
Speaker 1: you read about business, you should be when you think
Speaker 1: about who your doctor is and who your dentist is.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many different things to consider there,
Speaker 1: you know, like this overall, people of color are brilliant,
Speaker 1: you know, so you should should be learning from them period.
Speaker 1: But on top of that, I think it's a good
Speaker 1: time for the people of privilege to talk to the
Speaker 1: people of privilege also. And I think it's a good
Speaker 1: time for white people to also talk to other white people.
Speaker 1: You know. Um, I can't remember the name of it now,
Speaker 1: but there's like a Twitter account where like if you
Speaker 1: have like racist trolls, you know, come into your into
Speaker 1: your tweets, you could like act this account of white
Speaker 1: people and they'll come in and go, uhh, no, we're
Speaker 1: not going to have that, you know, and we need
Speaker 1: that too, you know, Like if you are a person
Speaker 1: who has privileged, then you should be talking to the
Speaker 1: other people that you're in the room with them. You know,
Speaker 1: there are rooms of white people. Man, I want to
Speaker 1: go to May I'd ever go to, you know, but
Speaker 1: there should be other white people in that room telling
Speaker 1: those people stop being racist. Like that should also happen.
Speaker 1: That would make a lot of black people, and people
Speaker 1: call it way less tired. Let me tell you, I
Speaker 1: have to tell you something so practical, really quickly, because
Speaker 1: I love this and you are so right. So sometimes
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn, I'll post something pretty provocative, and inevitably, if
Speaker 1: it starts to get enough views, somebody who's like a
Speaker 1: third connection who doesn't know me from Adam will come
Speaker 1: into the comments and say something absolutely foul. Well, I've
Speaker 1: developed enough of a network now that I don't say
Speaker 1: anything anymore. I sit back, I put my hands up,
Speaker 1: and I wait for one of my white friends to
Speaker 1: defend me. And they do almost every single time, and
Speaker 1: it is the most inspiring little moment for me to
Speaker 1: realize I don't have to get in this knock down
Speaker 1: drag out with you. Full. Somebody is willing to do
Speaker 1: it on my behalf and we need that. We do
Speaker 1: need that. Well, Amina and Tara, and it's been just
Speaker 1: an extraordinary conversation with the two of you. And I
Speaker 1: have a special request, um I Meana, would you share
Speaker 1: some of your poetry with us before we close? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd love to do that. Uh. This poem for the
Speaker 1: Women is one of my favorite poems to do right now.
Speaker 1: And I wrote this poem because I wanted women of
Speaker 1: color to be celebrated, and I wanted to try to
Speaker 1: incorporate as much of our our different culture and background.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I would have needed a poem
Speaker 1: that was a thousand minutes I wanted to cover all
Speaker 1: of that, but I wanted to try and tell this
Speaker 1: story and I think this will be fitting for our conversation.
Speaker 1: So this is just a portion of the poem for
Speaker 1: the Women. We gather our words together like so many
Speaker 1: sticks until they ignite. We build fire, and around that
Speaker 1: fire we sing. We sing because the song reminds us
Speaker 1: that we are always home in this body, in this skin,
Speaker 1: and around that fire we dance. We dance to the
Speaker 1: tune of liberation. We dance for the women who are
Speaker 1: no longer here, but the women who cannot speak. We
Speaker 1: will dance and fight for justice until every woman is free.
Speaker 1: Here the drums in the rhythm. We walk as we
Speaker 1: speak in albur mother tongue, as we say prayer as
Speaker 1: an alba mother's tongues. We find our language and banana
Speaker 1: leaves and avocado, when rice and yams and seaweed. We
Speaker 1: tell our stories while braiding the hair of our daughters,
Speaker 1: or building a business, or leading the way in protest,
Speaker 1: or performing surgery or frying chicken, because nobody needs to
Speaker 1: tell our stories for us, because our stories belong to us,
Speaker 1: because we belong to each other. We raise our hands,
Speaker 1: we raise our voices. We raise the next generation. We create,
Speaker 1: we invent. We look ahead and see no path, so
Speaker 1: we use our feet to build one for the ones
Speaker 1: who will come after us. We leave a legacy in
Speaker 1: the sound of our laughter. Every day we build a world.
Speaker 1: Thank God for women. Silent again, Amen, Antara, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Thank you all, thank you, thank you. There
Speaker 1: is so much to learn from that conversation, and so
Speaker 1: much to act upon. This series has been about reframing
Speaker 1: the way we see the world and today's conversation with
Speaker 1: Amina Brown and tar J Frank certainly helps us do that.
Speaker 1: Here are some of the valuable lessons I took away. First,
Speaker 1: diversity doesn't just happen for companies. It requires a smart
Speaker 1: strategy and intentionality. Just think about it. As Tara said,
Speaker 1: no business leader would ever try to hit her profit
Speaker 1: goals by saying, quote, We're just going to care our
Speaker 1: weight of the goal. Diversity requires intentionality and accountability. Second,
Speaker 1: this is a moment of real opportunity for those who
Speaker 1: want to help make progress towards true equality. This is
Speaker 1: the time to leave the sidelines to drive real change.
Speaker 1: And this discussion reminds us that being a good person
Speaker 1: is not enough. We need not just to be good people,
Speaker 1: but we need to be better people. This requires learning
Speaker 1: and staying open in vulnerable. It won't always be easy,
Speaker 1: but it's some of the most important work we can do.
Speaker 1: To learn more about tar J Frank's work, go to
Speaker 1: Tara J. Frank dot com and check out our podcast
Speaker 1: hashtag more Than and to hear Amina Brown's podcast, download
Speaker 1: Her with Amina Brown on the I Heart Radio app
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Join us next week
Speaker 1: for the conclusion of this special series when Caroline and
Speaker 1: Dianna talk to advertising legend Madonna Badger about using your
Speaker 1: own unique superpower to help us all get to equal.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose,
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