1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Brainstuff production of iHeart Radio. Hey Brainstuff Lauren 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: bog Obam here. Earlier this month, Oregon became the fifteenth 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: state plus Washington, d C. To join what's known as 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. Under this agreement, participating 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: states pledged to deliver all of their Electoral College votes 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: to the winner of the national Popular Vote. If enough 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: states join, it could spell the end of the Electoral College, 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: a temporary body of state appointed electors who are ultimately 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: responsible for choosing the president of the United States. The 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: Electoral College was created by the Founding fathers as a 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: way of checking the raw power of the people and 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: giving a leg up to small states, but it also 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: makes it possible for the winner of the popular vote 14 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: to actually lose the presidential election. That very thing has 15 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: happened five times in American history, most recently with the 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: election of Donald Trump, who won the electoral vote by 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: a broad margin and six to thirty two, but lost 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: the popular vote to Hillary Clinton by more than two 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: point eight million ballots. In the year two thousand, the 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: closest presidential election in US history, George W. Bush narrowly 21 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: won the White House with two hundred and seventy one 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: electoral votes while receiving five hundred and forty three thousand, 23 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: eight hundred and ninety five fewer popular votes than his opponent, 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: Al Gore. The electoral college is generally unpopular. A May 25 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen poll found fifty three percent of Americans think 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: it should be abolished, and according to a twenty nineteen 27 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: report by the Congressional Research Service, there have been seven 28 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: hundred different proposals floated in Congress that would reform or 29 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: repeal the electoral College, which is enshrined in Article two 30 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: of the Constitution and also in the twelfth Amendment. But 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: despite centuries of opposition, the electoral College is alive in 32 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: kicking because amending the Constitution or repealing and existing amendment 33 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: is a huge political undertaking that requires supermajorities in Congress 34 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: plus the president's signature. That's why electoral college critics are 35 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: excited about a new approach that uses the Constitution's own 36 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: language to bring power back to the popular vote, and 37 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: it's getting traction. The National Popular Vote Plan doesn't require 38 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: a constitutional amendment because it doesn't get rid of the 39 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: electoral College. Supporters believe it brings parity back to the 40 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: voting process, every vote would count, while opponents claim that 41 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: any state sponsored attempt to mess with federal elections is 42 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: by its very nature unconstitutional. We spoke with John Coza, 43 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: the chair of National Popular Vote Incorporated, a nonprofit organization 44 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: that's been lobbying states to join the movement since two 45 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: thousand and six. Cosa's biggest gripe with the electoral College 46 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with what the Constitution says, but 47 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: with state winner take all laws. These laws, which are 48 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: on the books in forty eight states plus Washington, d c. 49 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: Hand over all of the state's electoral votes to the 50 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: candidate who gets the most votes at the state level. 51 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: Cosa said, if you lose Florida by half a percent, 52 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: you get nothing, and that's exactly what happened to Gore 53 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: in two thousand plus. If you live in a state 54 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: that constantly gives all of its electoral votes to the 55 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: political party you're opposed to, you start to feel like 56 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: your vote doesn't even count. A troubling side effect of 57 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: the winner take all system is that presidential candidates have 58 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: learned to campaign exclusively in so called battleground states, where 59 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: both presidential candidates stand a good chance of winning. It 60 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: makes perfect mathematical and financial sense. Don't waste time and 61 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: states that are guaranteed to go blue or red, but 62 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: go all in on the purple ones. As a result, 63 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: says Cosa, in the twelve election, a hundred percent of 64 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: campaign events and spending were focused on just twelve states. 65 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: Incent of events in spending occurred in those same twelve states, 66 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: and that can affect how and where government policy is made. 67 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: For example, manufacturers in a battleground state like Ohio get 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: a lot more attention from White House policymakers than farmers 69 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: in a solid red state like Idaho. This hasn't always 70 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: been the case. A. Cosa said that in nine seen 71 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: sixty John F. Kennedy campaigned in thirty five states and 72 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: his opponent, Richard Nixon, visited all fifty. Okay, but let's 73 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: go back to the foundation of all of this. What 74 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: it says in the Constitution about the electoral vote, the 75 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: National Popular Vote movement Hinges on a clause contained an 76 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: article to Section one. Each state hill appoint in such 77 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 1: a manner as legislature thereof may direct a number of 78 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: electors equal to the whole number of Senators and representatives 79 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: to which the state may be entitled in Congress. According 80 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: to National Popular Vote supporters, the Constitution requires the use 81 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: of electors to choose the president, but it gives states 82 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: the right to pick those electors in such a manner 83 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: as they see fit. And that's exactly what fifteen states 84 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: and Washington d C. Have done. They've chosen to pledge 85 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: all of their electors to the winner of the national 86 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: popular vote instead of their state level popular vote. Cosa explained, 87 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: the Constitution sets up the electoral college, but doesn't say 88 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: how these electors get to the electoral College. It leaves 89 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: it totally up to the states instant only. This is 90 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: how forty eight states plus DC ended up with a 91 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: winner take all system in the first place. The winner 92 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: take all idea isn't anywhere in the Constitution, explains Kosa. 93 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: States past legislation one by one as majority politicians tried 94 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: to consolidate power in the decades preceding the Civil War. 95 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: Only Nebraska and Maine divvy up their electoral votes by 96 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: congressional districts. Critics of the National Popular Vote movement argue 97 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: that even if the interstate compact isn't expressly unconstitutional, it's 98 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: at least anti constitutional. They point to the fact that 99 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: the Founding Fathers created the Electoral College as a deliberate 100 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: move away from direct democracy. By giving ultimate power over 101 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: selecting the president to a representative body chosen by the states, 102 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: it avoided the threat of unchecked majorityarianism. In the words 103 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: of the Congressional Research Service report, the National Popular Vote 104 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: plan and opponents say would undermine the intent of the 105 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: Founding Fathers by bringing back majority rule. Other criticisms of 106 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: the National Popular Vote proposal are that it would incur 107 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: endless state recounts because so much will be writing on 108 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 1: every single vote nationwide, not just in battleground states. Also 109 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: that it would disadvantage smaller states over larger ones, and 110 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: further that it would encourage multiparty elections in which a 111 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: candidate could win the presidency with a plurality of votes 112 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: but not a majority. In the extensive Answering Myths section 113 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: of the National Popular Vote website, the organization addresses these 114 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: criticisms and many more, generally arguing that the National Popular 115 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: Vote scheme won't be any worse than what we have 116 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: now and has the potential to function far better. For example, 117 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: state recounts are already a pain, and fifteen American presidents 118 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: have already won the White House without an absolute majority 119 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: that's more than of the popular vote. Further, most of 120 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: these smaller states are currently ignored during campaign season because 121 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: they aren't battlegrounds. If you've paid attention on US election night, 122 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: you know that two d and seven is the magic 123 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: number of electoral College votes needed to win the presidency. 124 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: It's also the same number of electoral College votes required 125 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: to make National Popular Vote a reality. The only way 126 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: for the Cooperative Interstates scheme to work is if all 127 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: of their pooled electoral votes add up to a majority. 128 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: As of this recording, National Popular Vote legislation has passed 129 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: in states with a total of a hundred and ninety 130 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: six electoral votes, which is seventy four shy of the goal. 131 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: Maine could be the next to add its four humble 132 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: electoral votes, but it will take some bigger states to 133 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: sign on, many of which voted for Trump, who once 134 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: again stands to benefit from the electoral College in the election. 135 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: While the vast majority of states who have signed on 136 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: to the National Popular Vote have been Democratic strongholds, Colorado 137 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: became the first purple state to join in May, could 138 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: more follow we'll keep you updated. Today's episode was written 139 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: by Dave Brus and produced by Tyler Clang. Brain Stuff 140 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For 141 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: more in this and lots of other political topics, visit 142 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: our home planet, how stuff Works dot com. And for 143 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 144 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.