1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House Supports 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and it is hashtag pin ups week 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: here on stuff Mom Never Told You. In our last episode, 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: we talked about the safer for work pin ups, particularly 6 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: during the World War two era, and today we are 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: shining the spotlight on the most famous pin up of all, 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: Miss Betty Page. Yeah, the most famous pin up and 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: also the most famous set of bangs. Oh my god, 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: the bangs, Such good bangs, such good bangs. I don't 11 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: think I have the face or hair type to pull 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: off those bangs, but the height of my forehead requires 13 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: that I have longer bangs, and I'm okay with that. 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: I I but I love that Betty Page rocked those 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: bangs and that it has still created It's been creating 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: just cultural physical shock wave since then, pop stars mimicking 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: how she looks. Katie Perry has uh well sometimes has 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: Betty Page here. Yeah, And listeners, I gotta tell you, 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: if you aren't aware, Caroline has long bangs and she 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: rocks them. Than the Caroline bang, you know, might might 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: be a thing too. You never know, Um, I wanted 22 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: to share a quick reminiscence though with Betty Page. I 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: first learned about her from one of my very best friends, 24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 1: who is a fantastic musician named Madeline, and she wrote 25 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: a song when we were in high school all about 26 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: Betty Page. And it was like this biographical um Diddy, 27 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: which is a horrible way to describe a song all 28 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: about Betty Page. And I remember hearing it and asking her, like, 29 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: who who is this person you're talking about? And she 30 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: was like, you don't know who Betty Pages Kristen And 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: she taught me so many things I note um and 32 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: one of one of the things she taught me that 33 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: was really I mean, I don' want to say it 34 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: was transformative, but I remember seeing her image for the 35 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: first time and it was very arresting, partially because of 36 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: the bangs, but also because of the contrast between the 37 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: sheer look of delight on her face and the leopard 38 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: print bikini that she was wearing in those six inch 39 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: fetish the lettos. Well, this is also like, okay, so 40 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: you and I are growing up at a time when 41 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: like Kate Moss is modeling for Um Calvin Klein and 42 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: nothing against Kate Moss she's a very beautiful woman. But 43 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: like when you look at how so many nineties and 44 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: two thousands and even today ads people and ads are 45 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: always just looking so dour and so shiny for some reason, 46 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: and and hungry and possibly angry. To look at someone 47 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: like Betty Page who is rocking some really sexy get up, 48 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 1: some of which would even be considered sort of taboo today, um, 49 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: and to be doing it with a smile, it is. 50 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: It is revolutionary. And she wasn't nine ft tall, she 51 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: was five five and her weight kind of fluctuated somewhere 52 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: around one fifty. I mean, she was a beautiful woman. 53 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: But it's just so fascinating to watch the effect that 54 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: her re emergence of popularity since kind of the eighties 55 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 1: and nineties has had on people our age and even older. Yeah, 56 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was just a portrayal of 57 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: sexuality that I had never seen before. And it turns 58 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: out that Betty Page the person is fascinating as well. 59 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: I mean, and especially now when we put her in 60 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: the context of this kind of post career fame that 61 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: she's had. She's she's far more famous and monetarily successful 62 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: today than she was at the apex of the career 63 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: when she was working, Yeah, big time. Margaret Talbot, writing 64 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: in The New Republic, calls Betty America's underground pin up 65 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: queen because it's not like she was super well known 66 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: and super famous and mainstream while she was actually modeling. 67 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't until much later because her pictures used to 68 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: literally be kept under wraps in brown paper in magazines 69 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: and calendars. Uh, magazines called peak stair gaze Eiffel. You 70 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: want to talk about the male gaze Christians, just look 71 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: at the title these girls. Yeah. Um, But now, I 72 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: mean she, like so many other nameless pin ups from 73 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: that era, she is all over postcards, calendars, fan websites. 74 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: People all over the world have Betty Page lookalike competitions, 75 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: and so those bangs have translated from something that was 76 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: very underground to now a cultural movement. And part of 77 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: that sort of building up of Betty Page lore us 78 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: to do with the most recent Betty Page movie, in 79 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: Betty Page Reveals all Um, which actually talked to Betty Page. 80 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,559 Speaker 1: She was the narrator and she revealed a lot about 81 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: her life. It was way beyond what we just see 82 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: in images. Well, in speaking of images, for that documentary, 83 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: she wouldn't allow herself to be on camera. All you 84 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: hear is her very distinct voice. She said, quote, I 85 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: want to be remembered as I was when I was 86 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: young and in my golden times. I want to be 87 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,239 Speaker 1: remembered as a woman who changed people's perspectives concerning nudity 88 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: in its natural form and in pretty much all of 89 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: the you know, the the later her later life interviews 90 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: that she gives, at some point she echoes that same 91 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: sentiment of no, I don't want to be photographed. You're 92 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: never going to see a photo of me again. Um, 93 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: and always talks about how weight conscious she is. She says, oh, well, 94 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: I'm just old and fat now. And you know she 95 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: at one point she talked about how she has all 96 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: gray hair and she would hate for people to think 97 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: of her in that way. Yeah, and so it's she's 98 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: handing you a handful of good and a handful of 99 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: bad with that quote. I feel like, because, oh good, Yeah, 100 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: you you understand the role that you played in revolutionizing 101 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: people's ideas about sex and body image and nudity, and 102 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: that's wonderful. Oh, but you don't actually want to be 103 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: shown because you're ashamed of how you look being an 104 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: older woman. Well, and one thing that is revealed in 105 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: Betty Page reveals all even though you know, some critics 106 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: panded as a bit of a puff piece. There is 107 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: one point when she goes to see a screening of 108 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: Gretchen Mall starring as her in the two thousand and 109 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: five fictional movie The Notorious Betty Page, and I guess 110 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: it would be more of like a biopic, and she 111 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: hates it. Like at one point she leaves the screen 112 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: screening screaming that it's all lies. Yeah, because she has 113 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: Betty Page just like uh, the other pin ups that 114 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: we discussed in the first episode is a bundle of contradictions. 115 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: And so while yes, she posed nude and nearly nude 116 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,239 Speaker 1: and almost nude, uh for for several years, she had 117 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: very strong convictions about certain things in life. And so 118 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: while she was very pro nudity, that doesn't necessarily mean 119 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 1: she was like super pro have sex with whoever you want, 120 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: or drink and all of that stuff. Um, she was 121 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: a very multifaceted character really just like any human and 122 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: as people who now have kind of co opted her, 123 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: we've sort of cherry picked her out of history. We 124 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: have sort of willfully ignore the context, both of the 125 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: time in which she lived and also the context of 126 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: the life that she lived as a little girl. Yeah. 127 00:07:55,080 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: So in she was born in Nashville, Betty Maye Page, 128 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: she was the oldest girl to a Baptist family of 129 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: five other children, and it was not an easy childhood. 130 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: And I feel like a lot of this is kind 131 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: of generally known about her background. At one point in 132 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: that documentary, Betty Page reveals all. She describes her father 133 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: as a quote sex fiend who molested her and her 134 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: two sisters. But after her parents divorced in nineteen thirty three, 135 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: her mother wasn't exactly a source of comfort for her either. Yeah, 136 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: Betty talks about how her mother did not want girls, 137 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: She did not want daughters. She thought we were trouble, 138 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: Betty said, um to the point where her mother didn't 139 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: even talk to her girls, which I feel like is 140 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: not terribly uncommon. But her mother didn't even talk to 141 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: the girls about getting their period. And so at thirteen, 142 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 1: she thought she was dying because her mother had never 143 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: talked to her about it. And then, uh so her 144 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: parents have been divorced. Her dad gets arrested in Atlanta 145 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: for stealing a cop car, and so mom ends up 146 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: playing seeing the Girls not the boys, in an orphanage, 147 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: where Betty ends up I guess trying to make the 148 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: best of the situation and perform songs and skits for 149 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: the other girls at the orphanage. And despite or perhaps 150 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: driven by these early traumas, she excelled in high school. 151 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: She was in the drama club, she was a member 152 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: of the debate team, she was editor of the newspaper 153 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: she because sounds like like a little Tracy Flick running 154 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: around um. She was also voted most likely to succeed, 155 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: and one thing that broke her heart was that she 156 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: wanted to be valedictorian, but by like one point or 157 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: just a very very small margin, she ended up being salutatorian. 158 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: So she gets a scholarship to this place called Peabody College, 159 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: which she went to, but she wasn't exactly pleased to 160 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: do it um and she graduated with a b a. 161 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: In education, and in ninety three, after a short stint 162 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: as a teacher, which she did not like because she 163 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: said that the male students would essentially bully and harass 164 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: her constantly, she married her first husband at nineteen and 165 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: moves to San Francisco, And yeah, she wasn't just sitting 166 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: around out there in the house doing nothing while her 167 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: husband got shipped off to the Pacific during World War Two. 168 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: Betty nabs her first modeling job for a local furrier, 169 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: so she's getting her pictures taken in the fur coats. 170 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: She wins second place also in a Sailor judged beauty contest, 171 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 1: and the prize was a fifty dollar war bon, so 172 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: like we see, hey, I can kind of make some 173 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: money off of my image here. And in ninet she 174 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: goes to Hollywood and she lands a screen test at 175 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: twentieth Century Fox, and she kind of claims later on 176 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: that she was snubbed because she rejected a studio executive 177 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: sexual advances. It's also worth keeping in mind too, though, 178 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: that little Nashville born Betty Page also had a very 179 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: strong Southern accent that she did take voice lessons to 180 00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: try to get rid of. But you can even hear 181 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: it when in those later life interviews that she still 182 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: has like a very particular kind of lilt. Yeah. Well, 183 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: so after divorcing her first husband, she moves to New 184 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: York City and she has her sites set on acting 185 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: because she got a taste of it in Hollywood, and 186 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: so she in New York starts taking acting classes. She's 187 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: auditioning for parts, and she even landed a few minor 188 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: roles on early live TV, but nothing stuck. Similar thing, 189 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: uh the accent. Maybe she hadn't owned those acting skills 190 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: quite enough. But so in ninety nine, she's on a 191 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: trip to Coney Island at the beach and she meets 192 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: off duty police officer Jerry Tibbs, who approaches her about modeling, 193 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: tells her, girl, you need to get those bangs and 194 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: introduces her to camera clubs, which in general those are 195 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: groups of amateur photographers to get together and kind of 196 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: go out on shooting expeditions. In this case, specifically, these 197 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: camera clubs were men's hobbyist groups that sometimes acted as 198 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: a front for erotic photography. And as I was reading 199 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: about this, it occurred to me more and more, like Betty, 200 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: what is wrong with you? Just some strange man walks 201 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: up to you on the beach and like ask you 202 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: to get into modeling. That is how you get yourself kidnapped. 203 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: But I mean, that's also what my mother always told me. 204 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: But think about that smile. I mean Betty. Betty's at 205 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: least in the way that she looks on film, she 206 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: seems so receptive to whatever life tosses her way. Um, 207 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: and she gets into this more erotic photography and she's thinking, 208 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: you know what, why not, it's paying the bills. She's 209 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: good at it. And these are the early signs that 210 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: displaying her sexuality before the camera and also a little 211 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: bit of nudity or just roll on nudity really didn't 212 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: bother her. And at one point she and three other 213 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: models were arrested for indecent exposure during a topless photo 214 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: shoot near highway. But when she goes before the judge, 215 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,599 Speaker 1: she pleads not guilty, insisting that there was nothing indecent 216 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: about her body and that the group was a legitimate 217 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: camera club. And the judge ends up bumping to charge 218 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: down to just disorderly conduct. Yeah, and one of the 219 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: sources we were looking at points points to sort of 220 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: the radical nature of someone of this time, uh, claiming 221 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: that their body is not indecent. It's okay for me 222 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: to be naked near a highway, Mr judge. Well, and 223 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: that's one thing that she talks a lot about, is 224 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: how much She loves being naked outside taking a sun 225 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: bath yea, or an air bath. An air bath, that's 226 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: what she calls it. Yeah, oh man, Yeah, Betty's having 227 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: a good time. You know. Um. The whole thing is like, yeah, 228 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: she wants to be an actress, and these nude photos 229 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: are really no big deal. It's like, if you know, hey, 230 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: just go get a job at Starbucks if you can't 231 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: get your dream job and then make money until then, 232 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: her her deal was, well, just go take my clothes 233 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: off and pose for some pictures. Will be you know, 234 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: like you know, working at Starbucks, but nothing is on 235 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: underneath your barista aprin perhaps. But as her camera club 236 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: photos get more and more popular, she catches the attention 237 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: of Irving and Paula Claw. And these are brother and 238 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: sisters who are pin up and bondage photo entrepreneurs. So 239 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: he's usually the producer, she's usually the director. I've always 240 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: found it very strange and fascinating that this brother and 241 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: sister duo we're inca hoots to you know, create this 242 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: bondage photo business. But all right, y'all do y'all clause. 243 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: I just think, yeah, they were just just like Betty. 244 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: They were trying to figure out how to make money, 245 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: because I think it was Irving who figured out early 246 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: on people women specifically wanted to buy, basically tabloid magazines 247 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: pictures of movie stars because they would cut them out, 248 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: and it would early pinterest boys and girls when you 249 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: would actually cut out a picture from a magazine attack 250 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: into your wall. But yeah, he realized that there was 251 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: money to be made from these pictures, and that sort 252 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: of eventually parlayed into well, then we'll just have them 253 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: take their clothes off. Well, and then for even more money, 254 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: you can specialty order a bondage photo of your choosing. 255 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: So Betty at this point says in retrospect that she's 256 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: feeling a little adrift and signs a contract with the 257 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: clause she said, you know, after all, I could make 258 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: more money in a few hours modeling than I could 259 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: earn in a week as a secretary. And she also 260 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: claims to when it comes to the bondage photos, that 261 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: she's not very famous for that the setup was she 262 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: had to take the bondage photos in order to take 263 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: just the regular modeling photos, and she wanted to get 264 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: paid for everything, so it was kind of like eating 265 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: her vegetables, she was like, well, I guess I'll put 266 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: on this ball gag if I must. But I mean, 267 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: she thought the whole thing was ridiculous. There's this quote 268 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: where she says, the other models and I enjoyed doing 269 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: these crazy things. The craziest thing I was asked to 270 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: do was pose as a pony wearing a leather outfit 271 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: with a lead and everything. We just died laughing. And 272 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: when it comes to the you know, actually setting up 273 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: those bondage images, because I mean, she she said some 274 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: uncomfortable looking positions and some of them and one she 275 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: is actually hog tied. And she emphasizes how it was 276 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: Paula who always did the tying up, and it was 277 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: really insistent that she was very gentle, So it never was. 278 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: It never. There's only one instance that she could think 279 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: of where she was really physically uncomfortable because she had 280 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: to hold this particular pose for a long time. But 281 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: the you know, the things of tying people up and 282 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: all of that, really, I don't know, it just kind 283 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: of rolled off her back, seemed to um. Well. We also, 284 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: in addition to those bondage picture she was also making 285 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: sexploitation films like Betty Page and High Heels and teaser rama, 286 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: and she was in these five minute, eight millimeter quote 287 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: unquote films like Betty's Clown Dance and Dominant Betty Dances 288 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: with Whip. I like how straightforward the titles are. And 289 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: writing about these films, Richard Corliss, who's a film critic 290 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: over it time, was talking about how, yeah, look, these 291 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: films were not great. Um, but when Betty shared the 292 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: screen with these other women, because it was exclusively women, 293 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: because if you featured men, then you faced obscenity charges. Um, 294 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: when she shared the screen with these other women, whether 295 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: they were just helping each other get dressed or undressed, 296 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: or they were actually spanking each other or tying each 297 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: other up, you could sometimes spot them giggling. And again, 298 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: Margaret's talbot, who was writing a writt New Republic uh 299 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: said that these short films sometimes suggest a sort of 300 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: lesbian theme park. So everybody agrees, even though these are 301 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: just like these cake pictures cheesecake movies, there's no like 302 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: cultural larger cultural value. Perhaps it's an interesting snapshot into 303 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: just like fun sexuality. Well and also in such stark 304 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: contrast to hardcore porn today. Um, but When we get 305 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: to the mid fifties, this is really a turning point 306 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: for Betty. She isn't quite mainstream, but she still sees 307 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: some success. For instance, at one point, Howard Hughes apparently 308 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: knew about her and asked her on a date via 309 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: a messenger, and she was like, oh, no, thanks, I'm 310 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: dating somebody. Well, she had heard that he if you 311 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: wanted to be in a Howard Hughes movie, you had 312 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: to sleep with him. Whether that was true or not, whatever, 313 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: but she was like, I am not being put through 314 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: that rigamar role of having a director make me trade 315 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: sexual favors for a partner movie. Yeah. Betty was very 316 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: vocal about her at least her monogamy. She was she 317 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: had sex, and she acknowledged that. But but she didn't 318 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: sleep around shall we say? Um. But in nineteen fifty four, 319 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: she starts working with now famous photographer and former pin 320 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,719 Speaker 1: up herself, Bunny Yeager, who takes Betty's most professional shots. 321 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: And he is really the one who helps Betty Bloomore artistically, 322 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: you could say, into the icon you know today. Yeah, 323 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: And and Bunny herself had wanted to get behind the 324 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: camera and her interest in shooting other young women really 325 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: came about right as conveniently, Hugh Hefner was launching Playboy magazine, 326 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: and so Bunny combines all of these interests and these 327 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: money making schemes and shoots Betty for Playboy. And so 328 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: in January nineteen fifty five, Betty appears as the Miss 329 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: January Playboy centerfold in a Santa cap and a smile. 330 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: That's about it. Um. But Bunny wasn't paid much. She 331 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: only got a hundred dollars for the pick her. Uh 332 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: Heffner had purchased all of the previous year's centerfolds just 333 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: as a batch, including the very famous one of Marilyn Monroe, 334 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: and later, talking about the appeal of Betty Page, Hugh 335 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: Heffner said, quote, She's a combination of wholesome innocence and 336 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: fetish oriented poses that is at once retro and very modern. 337 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: And in that light, it almost makes sense that bunny 338 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: style fell out of fashion as Playboy and other magazines 339 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: started featuring more explicit content. And this is something too 340 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 1: that Betty Page talks about a in taking pride in 341 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: no other men being on the set, aside from say, 342 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: like an irving claw, that she wasn't taking you know, 343 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: what would be considered those obscene photos with other men. 344 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: And also aside from one incident that she claimed happened 345 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: against her will when she was drunk, which was a 346 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: very rare occasion for her, she never um did I 347 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: forget how she described it exactly, but um she was 348 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: talking about how, you know, a dirty photo was one 349 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: in which you'd spread your legs, and so that never happened. 350 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: And even in those photos with Irving Claw, what we 351 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: would be considered her most hardcore stuff, she was wearing, 352 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: I mean all sorts of layers of things like you 353 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: would you never actually saw her nipples, her volva, certainly 354 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: not pubic hair. Yes, she talked about how sometimes she 355 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: would have to layer the underwear just so you wouldn't 356 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: even see like a shadow or a suggestion of anything 357 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: under it, to keep it very very far from court. Basically, Well, 358 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: in this two seguys so perfectly from our conversation last 359 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: time about the history of pin ups and particularly the 360 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: painted pin ups, and how it was really the rise 361 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: of Playboy and photographic technology and that new more explicit 362 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: style that rendered the old skull pin up obsolete. Yeah, 363 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: but I mean Betty was certainly not absolutely yet, because 364 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: it was also in that Bunny shoots the famous jungle 365 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: Betty photos in Miami, and these are the ones that 366 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: you've probably seen, the ones like Kristin referenced with the 367 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: leopard print bikini. Uh, and Betty's posing with Cheetah's at 368 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: this like wild Animal Park in Florida basically, and uh, 369 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: she was very proud that she made that bathing sear herself. Yeah, 370 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: she made most of her bikinis, and she lamented the 371 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: fact that later in life she she threw everything away 372 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: and was enraged that these Betty Page boutiques had popped 373 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: up in the meantime copying her styles. Yeah, exactly. Um, well, 374 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: so this is this is the height of her popularity really, 375 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: when she's appeared in Playboy and Bunny is shooting all 376 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: of these fabulous and exotic photos. But it is also 377 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: sort of another turning point for the worst for her 378 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: for her personal life. And we will talk more about 379 00:22:50,520 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: that in just a second. So it's in and there's 380 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: some congressional drama of foot because a senator named st. 381 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: Ska Father has his eye on a presidential race and 382 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: in order to druma publicity for himself and really positioned 383 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: himself as an important candidate. He decides to go on 384 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: the war path against obscenity. So he puts together this 385 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: senate witch hunt, really investigating pornography, and he calls Page 386 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: as a witness, citing some of her more explicit camera 387 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: club photos, because by this point they're what like twenty 388 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 1: thousand of these photos out there. Yeah, give her take, 389 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: give her take, but yeah, sort of the context, or 390 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: what father framed as the context, is that a teenage 391 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: boy had died of auto erotic asphyxiation, and during the testimony, 392 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: his father on the stand agreed that the pose his 393 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: son had been found in, he was all tied up, Uh, 394 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: looked just like a bondage photo of Betty's, which is 395 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: such a dirty it's just such a dirty trick. But 396 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: Betty never had to testify, possibly because she wasn't actually 397 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: a mainstream bondage queen who could be made an example of, 398 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: you know, she wasn't famous enough to sort of drag 399 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: her through the mud. Instead, it was that entrepreneur Irving 400 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: Claw who had to defend his films and images, and 401 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: he used the defense that well, there was no nudity. Ever, 402 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: there were no men in the photos, so it's not obscene, yeah, 403 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: but it's still ruined him and ruined him and it 404 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: definitely drove Betty off the scene. Yeah, so she decides 405 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: to take a new path. In ninety seven, at thirty four, 406 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: she basically drops off the face of the pop cultural 407 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: planet after all of the obscenity drama, and for a 408 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: while she dives head first into Christianity. She attends Bible College, um, 409 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: and she gets involved with Billy Graham's crusade. And in 410 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: the book The Real Betty Page The Truth about the 411 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: Queen of pin Ups by Richard Foster, a book which 412 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: she says is mostly lies, Foster says that her classmates 413 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: in Bible College remember her as erratic. Yeah, basically, that 414 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: her missionary zeal and her fervor for the Lord even 415 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: freaked them out, essentially, that she was going a little 416 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: too far with it. Um. But yeah, during this time, 417 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: and she worked as a teacher, she said, you know, hey, 418 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: that's what I was trying to do. I'll go back 419 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: and do that. She married and divorced a few more times, um, 420 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: and things get really dark in the nineteen seventies and eighties. 421 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: She's living in Florida and California, and she runs a 422 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: foul of the law quite a bit, and this is 423 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: coming from Foster's book. Betty gets in trouble. She's threatening 424 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: and even assaulting friends and neighbors. She gets committed to 425 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: a state hospital for a few months in Florida and 426 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: then again in California after stabbing a landlady, and in 427 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: two she nearly kills her new landlady. She informs the 428 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: woman that God has told her essentially to kill this woman, 429 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: and as a result, she has committed to a state 430 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: hospital for ten years and diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And 431 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: it's interesting that during this time that she's committed and 432 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: she's getting treatment and she's recovering from what she's been through. Um, 433 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: it's really during this time that her popularity, unbeknownst to 434 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: her and without her having to do a single thing 435 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: about it, completely re blossoms. Yeah, I didn't know this 436 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: bit at all. In Dave Stevens creates the graphic novel 437 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: The Rocket Cheer and it features Betty as a character 438 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: or at least a look alike, and he's talked about 439 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: how he discovered Betty page photos when he was a 440 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: young boy and was immediately in the same way that 441 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: I was when I was a younger girl, was immediately 442 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: struck by that imagery. Sadly, I am a horrible drawer, 443 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: so I started like, couldn't recreate her image. Um. And 444 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: then though in the movie version of the Rocketeer comes 445 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: out with Jennifer Connolly playing the Betty character, and cult 446 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: worship is born, and all of this is coinciding with 447 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: her being released from this mental hospital. Yeah, and so, yeah, 448 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: you you come out of being out of society for 449 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: ten years, and you come out and people are obsessed 450 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: with you when you had, even during the biggest success 451 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: of your career, you had basically just been a playboy 452 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: playmate like that. That's sort of the height of her 453 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: mainstream fame, and all of a sudden you emerged to 454 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: find that the entire world is sort of looking for you. 455 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: I mean, people were convinced that she was dead, or 456 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: that she had even become a nun, that she'd run 457 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: a foul of the mob, and they had, you know, 458 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: gotten rid of her. So all of these Betty theories 459 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: were cropping up. And it's so interesting too to watch 460 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: how people are drawn to her because we tend to 461 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: project a lot of things on too Betty, just the 462 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: same way that we have tended to project a lot 463 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: of things onto pin ups in general. Um, whether it's 464 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: you know, giving her credit for making people feel good 465 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: about their bodies, or just um sort of kind of 466 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: co opting her as some sort of feminist icon almost. 467 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: And this public adoration has also been heavily monetized. So 468 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 1: she died in two thousand eight, and in two thousand thirteen, 469 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: for instance, she tied with Einstein at number eight on 470 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: Forbes's list of the top earning dead celebrities. I believe 471 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: her estate was earning something around eight million dollars a 472 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: year because of all of this new imagery and this 473 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: new merchandise now associated with her estate. And writing about this, 474 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: Richard Corlis, whom we started earlier over at Time, talks 475 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: about how her star quality was undeniable, even in those 476 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: silent films that she did the what was it Betty, 477 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: Betty Uh, Betty's clown Dance, Betty Page and high Heels, 478 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: and writing about this in Time magazine, he says, what 479 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: everyone remembers about Betty, aside from her trademark bangs, is 480 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: her smile. That guilelessness that she presented on camera, and 481 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: Cordless almost applauds the brand of sexuality that's present in 482 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: Betty's images and her movies. He says, to her fans 483 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: and her official detractors who might have agreed that sex 484 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: was dirty, Betty's giddy energy said, heck no, it's fun. 485 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: And she is. She's laughing, she's having a good time. 486 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: She herself is quoted as saying like this is this 487 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: is so silly, this is so ridiculous that I'm getting 488 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: paid to do this, or you know, she is that 489 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: just what she's putting on. Regardless of whether it's true 490 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: or whether she's just acting, it's still portraying a version 491 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: of sexuality that is fun and, like he said, guileless. 492 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: And that's very much echoed in Margaret Talbot's assessment that 493 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: she's the sex joke who's in on the joke, or 494 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: at least it seems to be that way. Yeah. Talbot's 495 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: essay is sort of focused on this issue of fetishistic 496 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: nostalgia around Betty Page. Basically that we us modern folks 497 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: in the year, like we said earlier, kind of cherry 498 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: picked things from the past and conveniently shake off the context, 499 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: and that our obsession with these things that were meant 500 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: to be disposable fifty years ago ends up driving our 501 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: so called eBay economy. And she's wondering, like, okay, so 502 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: what is it? Why why do we seem to love 503 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: to pick things from the path that we're meant to 504 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: be basically like garbage? You know, pin ups were meant 505 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: to be advertisements. Betty Page was just meant to be 506 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: an images sold to clients who wanted to see women 507 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: with ball gags, and Talbot posits that part of it 508 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: is that Betty's pictures depict this joy with her work, 509 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: this joy in herself, not a joy put on for 510 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: the viewers. She's not necessarily looking straight at you trying 511 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: to seduce you. She's almost too silly for that. And 512 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: Talbot writes that Betty's exuberant persistence of self shines through 513 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: and that she's almost too sunny to be a seductress. Well, 514 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: and there's also, as she goes on to talk about 515 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: that fifties duality going on, because you have Betty at 516 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: least appearing to enjoy sexuality at a time when women 517 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: weren't supposed to be at least outwardly sexual beings at all. 518 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: Sexuality was literally under wraps. These magazines were under wraps. Um. 519 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: I mean, she couldn't take a photo with a guy 520 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: for fear of getting slapped with an obscenity charge. And 521 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: it was happening quote at a time when fetishism and 522 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: exhibitionism and ordinary sexual adventure really meant something. And she 523 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: goes on to quote Karen Essex and James Swanson, who 524 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: wrote a tribute book to Betty essentially uh and they 525 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: say that she embodies the stereotypical wholesomeness of the fifth 526 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: these and the hidden sexuality straining beneath the surface. So really, 527 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: I mean she is just a concrete, flesh and blood 528 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: example of what we were talking about with our pin 529 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: up models who may or may not have existed that 530 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: but the women who were painted on paper. Betty is 531 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: sort of the embodiment of that, the contradiction of the 532 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: innocence and wholesomeness and joy and exuberance with that darker sexuality. 533 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: But the really fascinating thing too is how in her 534 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: more modern day reclamation, and this was something talked about 535 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: in a piece over the Atlantic, it has been largely 536 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: driven by women whereas originally she was largely appreciated by 537 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, straight men interested in the kinkier kinds of stuff, 538 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: or just you know, we were picking up a playboy. 539 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: It's there. There's really something that women today have been 540 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: drawn to in terms of her sexuality, her body image, 541 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: and also you know, wanting to put a feminine spin 542 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: on it as well. Yeah. Talking to The Atlantic, the 543 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: director of Betty Page Revial's All Mark More, talks about 544 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: how her popularity today, her enduring popularity probably says a 545 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: lot about the sexually repressive culture that we're still in 546 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: and the fact that we're generally still not cool with 547 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: women's bodies, That women's bodies are always a thing, they're 548 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: always politicized and discussed and stared at. And so the 549 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: fact that women were the target audience for that documentary 550 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: and that they respond so strongly to Betty More, he 551 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: was talking about how that really says a lot about 552 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: the structure of today's society and what it's telling women 553 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: they have to be. So it has put her up 554 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: as a role model for women to say, oh my god, 555 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: here is a photo of this woman with uh, you know, 556 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: a not extremely thin looking body. She hasn't been photos shopped, 557 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: and she's looking directly into the camera. She is there 558 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: isn't another man in the frame. For all we know. 559 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: She could just be doing this for herself and she 560 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: is enjoying it, and she is seems to be fully 561 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: embracing her body. There's this one nude photo of her 562 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: where she's sitting on the bow of a ship and 563 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: her head is upturned to the sun, and I mean, 564 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to put any clothes on her. She 565 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: looks so comfortable, you know. Yeah, And that's that's what 566 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: people were driving home, especially Talbot, who says that regardless 567 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: of what Betty was or wasn't wearing, she looked supremely 568 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: at ease in that body because she was totally unlike 569 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: both her contemporaries and our contemporary She wasn't as busty 570 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: as Monroe or Mansfield, and she wasn't as thin as 571 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 1: a Kate Moss or at Gazelle. She'd even be been 572 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,760 Speaker 1: rejected by the Ford modeling agency for being too short 573 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: and too hippie, and so here she is really like. 574 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: There's so many pictures of her just laughing, whether she's 575 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: in a bikey or whatever. Naked. And it's that sense 576 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: that she's embracing her own flaws, that she's made sex 577 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: her ally that really makes us want to identify with her. Yeah, 578 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: and and as well to her contradictions probably helped make 579 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: her real, because here's a woman who was taking nude 580 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: photos on Saturday and going to church on Sunday because 581 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: she didn't think the two were mutually exclusive, even as 582 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: she after she had gone through her really super duper 583 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: religious phase, and I think she's still religious, you know, 584 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: when she died. She always made very clear distinctions between 585 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, what she did and sort of the intent 586 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: of it. She didn't seem to harbor a lot of 587 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: guilt for posing because she wasn't actively having sex with 588 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 1: a lot of people, which she did wag a finger at. Yeah, 589 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: And I mean, so pages basically treated as this gateway 590 00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: drug almost to pin up culture, burlesque, rockability, and other 591 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: cultures that are sort of generally curve positive. But despite 592 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: all this, she she herself never considered herself an icon. 593 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: And this was in one of the Q and A 594 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: s that Kristen and I read, and she says, I 595 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: don't know what they mean by an icon. I never 596 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: thought of myself as being that. It seems so strange 597 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: to me. I was just modeling, thinking of as many 598 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: different posts as possible. I made more money modeling being secretary. 599 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: I had a lot of free time. You could go 600 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: back to work after an absence of a few months. 601 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: You couldn't do that as a secretary. And so she 602 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: was because she couldn't be that actress, that famous actress 603 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: she wanted to be. She took the route that was 604 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: open to her. Yes, she was trained as a teacher. 605 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: You could be a teacher. Yes she was trained as 606 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: a secretary. You could go do that too, But she 607 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: she needed to combine the lack of boring with the 608 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: need to make money. Yeah, I mean she was kind 609 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: of just doing it for herself. She couldn't rely on 610 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: anybody else. Um she was. She said in later in 611 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: life that she was really in love of with the 612 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: last guy that she married. But that was it. I mean, 613 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: everybody else was, you know, kind of hurt her ultimately, 614 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: And when she died in two thousand and eight, there 615 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: were I mean, there was an outpouring of you know, 616 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: attention on her, and all of these obituaries and reflective 617 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: blog posts and things, and there were a lot of 618 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,760 Speaker 1: women and feminists who were hailing her, you know, hailing 619 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: the event as the passing of a feminist icon, which 620 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:35,359 Speaker 1: is really interesting to just consider because on the one hand, 621 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: of things that she stands for in terms of body 622 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: positivity and embracing nudity and being really comfortable on your 623 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 1: own skin and even just you know, getting through the 624 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: tough times and making ends meet when you need to. Uh. 625 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: Caroline and I you know, spent a lot of time 626 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: actually before this podcast kind of puzzling over whether it's 627 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: really all that accurate though, to put that feminie is 628 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: label on her, and whether it's even necessary. And I mean, 629 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: I think talking about Betty Page is an excellent counterpoint 630 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 1: to Andrea Dorkin stuff that we cited in our first 631 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: episode on pin Ups, because she basically says that these 632 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: images are awful and they're of no value and that 633 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: they're just empty vessels for our fantasies. And when you 634 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: talk about Betty, I mean, she's a real flesh and 635 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: blood human who had an incredibly traumatic upbringing. She really 636 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: struggled through hard times and while she was beautiful and 637 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: she did what she did to get herself by because 638 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 1: you know, she wasn't depending on some man to get 639 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: her by Um, it doesn't necessarily mean that she was feminist. 640 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: I think, you know, we tend to take or that 641 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: she needs to be feminist. I think that we take 642 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: Betty's images, uh, she a flesh and blood person, and 643 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: treat them and then think about them the same way 644 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: that we do the paintings of pin ups, you know 645 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 1: from uh, and fill those images with our own projections 646 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: and hopes and feelings. And well, I think it's wonderful 647 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: to empower yourself, however you do, to feel good in 648 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: your own skin, and to look at someone like Betty 649 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: and say, see, she wasn't a nine ft tall model, 650 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: you know she she looked way more normal, and I 651 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: can I can achieve that. I do think that's wonderful. 652 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: But I do think that just because a woman does something, 653 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: or model something, or or acts in a certain way, 654 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,479 Speaker 1: it doesn't make it a feminist act, and it doesn't 655 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: make her a feminist icon. Yeah. It circles back to 656 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: a question that you and I raised in our pre 657 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: podcast conversation of at what point, when we are doing 658 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: this are we putting words in other women's mouths? Essentially, 659 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: because she did speak extensively about her life before she died, 660 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: and maybe she just was never directly asked about feminism, 661 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: but it was certainly never a mantle that she put 662 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: on herself, and I don't think that that in any 663 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: way devalues her role. I think that she's still easily 664 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: considered a trailblazer and certainly an icon um. But I'm 665 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: so curious to hear from listeners about this further compulsion 666 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: that we might have to need to say she's a 667 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: feminist icon. Yeah, so we want to know about that 668 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: and want to know if there are any Betty Page 669 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: fans listening. I have a feeling there are, because when 670 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: I asked on Facebook, should we do a Betty Page podcast, 671 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: the response was overwhelmingly yes. So we want to know 672 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: all of your Betty Page thoughts. Mom Stuff at house 673 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address. You can 674 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast hashtag pin ups week, 675 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of 676 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now, and stepping away 677 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: from pin ups, we have a couple of letters to 678 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: share in response to our podcast on women in farming. Yeah, 679 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Jenny, who has a 680 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,280 Speaker 1: resource for ladies out there who are interested in farming. 681 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: She says, I recently spent the summer in Maine apprenticing 682 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,439 Speaker 1: on a small goat farm where we made goat choose 683 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: to sell at farmer's markets. The farm was run by 684 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: an older woman and all three apprentices that season were women, 685 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: so we had a lot of fun together with the goats. 686 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: I just imagine the imagine them gossiping with the goats. 687 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: Um Anyway, Jenny says, the decision to become a farmer 688 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,359 Speaker 1: and almost thirty years old was kind of a sudden one, 689 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: but I know that working with animals was something I 690 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: really wanted to do. I'm just not very good at maths, 691 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: so being a vet or a vet tech was never 692 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 1: in the cards for me, or really anything I ever 693 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: wanted to do. Farming ended up being the best decision 694 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: for me, and I absolutely love it. If there are 695 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: any aspiring lady farmers out there, I would really like 696 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 1: to suggest the program which I used to get connected 697 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,240 Speaker 1: with my host farm. It was through the main Organic 698 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: Farmers and Gardeners Association. It's completely free. You just fill 699 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: out an application, browse the list of farm descriptions. They 700 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: have farms of every type all across Maine, and then 701 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: you usually have to visit the farm to interview and 702 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: come to an agreement with the farmer. A lot of 703 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: the farms are run by women, groups of women, or 704 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: women along with their male partners. Maine is in the 705 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: midst of a small farm revolution at the moment, so 706 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: it's a really great place and program to get in 707 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: there and experience farming hands on. Usually don't need any experience, 708 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: and most farms will offer free room and board. Some 709 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: of the living situations can be a bit alternative, hence 710 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: the visit before you accept food and sometimes a small 711 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: stipend come along with it. All the information can be 712 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: found at www dot m o f g a dot org. 713 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: I highly recommend this program for anyone who wants to 714 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: try farming but isn't quite sure about it yet. By 715 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: the end of your apprenticeship you will know if farming 716 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: is right for you. Thanks for the episode on Lady Farmers, 717 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: and thank you Jenny Well. I've got to let her 718 00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: here from Julianna and she writes, how do you Caroline Kristen, 719 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm a longtime agriculture advocate and a longtime listener of Sminty, 720 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: so I was very excited to see you do a 721 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: series on women in agriculture. I grew up in a 722 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: rural area my whole life and was highly involved in 723 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 1: the Future Farmers of America. She goes on to say, overall, 724 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: in my personal experience, I haven't seen any outright discrimination 725 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: keeping girls from working family farms. They just usually desire 726 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,879 Speaker 1: a different position in the agg industry. Not only that 727 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: many farms aren't changing hands generation to generation anymore, but 728 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: for more interested, non related managers. Farmers aren't working hard 729 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: to send their kids to college to get degrees, and 730 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: those degrees aren't being applied back to the farm, so 731 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: their parents need to find a way to keep it 732 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: going without their children's support. I can't speak for all 733 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: aspects and regions of agriculture, but I think that if 734 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: a woman were to desire to run a farm business, 735 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: she really would just need to apply herself. Agriculture is 736 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 1: most certainly firmly rooted in traditional and conservative values, but 737 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: I think you'd be surprised that it's also one of 738 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: the most progressive. It's just so from an external view, 739 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: you might not get that impression. As a woman in AGG. 740 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,720 Speaker 1: I've had nothing but encouragement from the male and female 741 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: bosses and mentors who have no problems with seeing women 742 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,879 Speaker 1: as equal contributors to AGG. I think it stems from 743 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: being a part of something bigger than yourself, that you 744 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 1: are there literally to solve world problems like hunger and health, 745 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,280 Speaker 1: and having the opinion that girls belong there and boys 746 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,399 Speaker 1: there is a frivolous thought the best person is put 747 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: forth to solve those issues, regardless of their gender. I 748 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: think this was a great look at AG, but perhaps 749 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: you could expand your definition of agriculture to include more 750 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,360 Speaker 1: facets where women are. Even with a traditional view of 751 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 1: a farmer's wife, she isn't merely cleaning house. She's out 752 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: there with her husband in the operation, working alongside him 753 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 1: and their children. Also, she's more than likely making many 754 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: financial and purchasing decisions for the operation, even if it's 755 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: her husband's name on the deed. I have so much 756 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: more to say about this subject, and there's so many 757 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: topics to be discussed in AGG Blabaram, but I don't 758 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 1: want to take up more of your time. Thanks for 759 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: the podcast and thanks for your insights, Julianna, and thanks 760 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: everybody who has written into us Mom stuff at how 761 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address and for 762 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well as 763 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one. 764 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,760 Speaker 1: With those links so that you can learn more about 765 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: Betty Page, head on over to stuff mom Never Told 766 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 767 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com