1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to STUFH you missed in history class from how 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy B. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. For the 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: most part, until the ninety nineties or so, a lot 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: of times timelines of the civil rights movement in the 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: United States marked its beginning as either brown versus Board 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: on May seventeenth of nineteen fifty four, or with Rosa 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: Parks refusal to give up her bus seat on December one. 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: And it's definitely true that movements usually have multiple beginning parts. 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: A lot of times people will note like one keystone moment, 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: but usually there are a lot of things that happened. 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: But these uh timelines from a couple of decades ago 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: often didn't really pay a lot of attention to another 14 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: event that happened in between those two, which was the 15 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: August nineteen five five murder of fourteen year old Emmett Till. 16 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: But then a couple of books came out that started 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: to change all of that. One was a Death in 18 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: the Delta, The Story of Emmett Till by Stephen J. Whitfield, 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: which came out in Night, and the other was Emmett 20 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: Till The Sacrificial Lamb of the Civil Rights Movement, which 21 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: was based on Cleonora Hudson Weems doctoral dissertation UM and 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: that second but came out in nineteen nine four. So, 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: along with other writings, these two books really started to 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: bring renewed public attention to the murder into the role 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: that it played as a really powerful catalyst in the 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: civil rights movement. Multiple other books have followed, and then 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: includes some that were published as recently as fifteen and 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, which is the year that we're recording this episode. 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: But the reason that Emmett Till's murder played such a 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: consequential role in the civil rights movement is really the 31 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: choices that his mother made me Till mobily made. She 32 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: faced the death of her child with extraordinary bravery and 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: clarity and grace, and for more than forty five years 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: after his murder, she continually worked to make sure that 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: he didn't die in vain. So she is who we 36 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: are going to talk about today, and maybe Elizabeth Carthon 37 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: was born on November twenty three in Webb, Mississippi. When 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: she was about two years old, her family moved to Argo, Illinois, 39 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: which is outside of Chicago during the Great Migration, and 40 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: her father, wily Nash Carthon, had gotten a job at 41 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: Argo Corn Products resigning company, and today Argo is actually 42 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: known as Summit. Mamie's father left when she was about eleven, 43 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: but even before that point she was really closest to 44 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: her mother, Alma. Her upbringing was strict and disciplined and religious, 45 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: and her mother helped found the Argo Temple, Church of 46 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: God in Christ. Alma pushed Mamie to do well in 47 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: school while also sheltering her from worldlier things. So in 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: her memoir, Maymie tell Mobili would go on to describe 49 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: herself as naive and trusting and really having a lot 50 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 1: to catch up on once she was a wife and mother. 51 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: Herself and their neighborhood in Argo was predominantly black, but 52 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,679 Speaker 1: the high school, Argo Community High School was predominantly white. 53 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: Maymie became the first black student to make the schools 54 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: a honor role and the fourth black student to graduate, 55 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: and when she graduated, she was first in her class. 56 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: She married Louis Till on October fourteenth of nineteen forty, 57 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: when both of them were eighteen, and on July one, 58 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: they had a son, Emmett Louis Till, who Maybe named 59 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: after his father and her favorite uncle. But even before 60 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: Emmett was born, a family friend had taken to calling 61 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: him the little Bobo, and so his family and his 62 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: friends generally called him Bobo or Bo for the rest 63 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: of his life. Mamie's relationship with Emmett's father didn't last long. 64 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: While Emmett was still a baby, Louis assaulted Maymie one night, 65 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: and she defended herself with a pot of hot water. Eventually, 66 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: she got a restraining order and moved back in with 67 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: her mother, working as a clerk typist while Alma looked 68 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: after Emmett. And after Louis repeatedly broke the restraining order, 69 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: they wound up in court where the judge gave him 70 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: the option of the military or jail, and he chose 71 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: the former. Maybe didn't hear from Louis for several months 72 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: after that, but when she did, he let her know 73 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: that he had made arrangements for her to receive part 74 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: of his military pay. But on July thirteenth of nineteen 75 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: forty five, Maybe got a telegram that Louis had been 76 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: killed in Italy. We'll go into a little more detail 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: about this later in the episode, but for the rest 78 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: of Emmett's life, the only information that Maybe had was 79 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: that his father had died due to quote willful misconduct, 80 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: and that for that reason they wouldn't receive survivor benefits. 81 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: Emmett was just about to turn four when his father died, 82 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: and the only one of Louis's possessions that made me 83 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: received from the army after his death was a signet 84 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: ring engraved with his initials, which she passed on to 85 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: her son. Emmett grew into a funny, fearless boy who 86 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: liked to crack jokes and dress well, and when he 87 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: was about five, he contracted polio. He had to be 88 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: quarantined at home for about a month after he recovered. 89 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: The only lingering effect was that he spoke often with 90 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: a stutter, and that was especially when he was nervous 91 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: or excited. During Emmett's youngest years, Alma raised him while 92 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: Mamie worked, and Maybe would go on to describe her 93 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: relationship with her son really is very sibling like. Although 94 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: Mamie was working to support the family, Alma was really 95 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: the one running it, and in many ways she acted 96 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: as mother for both her daughter and her grandson. But 97 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: eventually Emma moved to Chicago and Mamie stayed behind in 98 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: Argo with Emmett, along with a network of cousins and 99 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: other family members who had moved to Illinois from Mississippi. 100 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: This extended family was large and they were all really 101 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: close to each other. Various members would take trips back 102 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: and forth between the two states to visit one another. 103 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: He eventually, Mamie decided to move to Detroit to try 104 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: to reconnect with her father, who she hadn't had much 105 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: contact with it all since she was young, and there 106 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: she met Pink Bradley and they got married on May 107 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: five of nineteen fifty one. Emmett wasn't very happy in Detroit, though, 108 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: and he begged his mother to be allowed to go 109 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: back to Chicago to live with his grandmother. Maymie eventually agreed, 110 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: but things really just weren't working out for her in 111 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: Detroit either. She was working long hours while also trying 112 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: to go back and forth to Chicago to visit Emmett 113 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: and her mother. So finally, after Almas sold her old 114 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: house in Argo and bought a two unit building in Chicago, 115 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: maybe Pink and Emmett moved into one of those two units, 116 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: but not long after they moved in, Maymie discovered that 117 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: Pink was seeing another woman, so she threw him out 118 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: and divorced him. By the time he was eleven, Emmett 119 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: Till had grown into an energetic and industrious boy with 120 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: a bit of a mischievous streak. After Mamie's divorced from 121 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: Pink Bradley, he became fiercely protective of his mother, and 122 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: he also took on a lot of responsibilities at home. 123 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: Maybe worked all day first for the Social Security Administration 124 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: and then for the Air Force, so Emmett did a 125 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: lot of the cooking and took care of the house. 126 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just cooking and cleaning. When Maybe bought 127 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: linoleum for the kitchen floor and then bad weather kept 128 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: the people who were supposed to help install it from 129 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: being able to come, Emmett worked out how to do 130 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: it himself, which led to the two of them tackling 131 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: a whole range of home improvement projects together. He was 132 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: also fond of working to make a little extra money, 133 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: doing things like running errands and delivering groceries. Maybe met 134 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: Gene Mobley one day when she went to get her 135 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: nails done. Jean was working at Ford Motor Company during 136 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: the day and he was working as a barber at night. 137 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: He seemed interested in her immediately, but she didn't really 138 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: think he was her type, and she was understandably reluctant 139 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: to start another relationship. But that started to change when 140 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: she saw how good he was with Emmett and the 141 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: summer of nineteen fifty five, Emmett wanted to go visit 142 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: his family in Mississippi, and we're going to take a 143 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: quick sponsor break before we talk about that. In the 144 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: summer of nineteen fifty five, Maybe began planning a vacation, 145 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: planned a road trip with Jeane and Emmett. First they 146 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: would go to Detroit and then to Omaha. But Emmett 147 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: really had a different idea. Mamie's uncle mos Right, who 148 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: was a preacher and sharecropper who lived outside of money Mississippi, 149 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: had come up to Chicago for a funeral, and when 150 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: he went back home, he was going to take Emmett's 151 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: cousin and close friend, Wheeler Parker with him for a visit. 152 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: Another Chicago cousin, Curtis Jones, was going to join them 153 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: in Mississippi. As well. This sounded like a tremendous adventure. 154 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: It was, in Mamie's words, as close to summer camp 155 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: as Emmett was going to get and Emmett was set ongoing. 156 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: And this idea, though made Mamie incredibly nervous, she did 157 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: finally agree to it. Before Emmett left, his mother had 158 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: a talk with him, As she framed it in her 159 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: memoir quote the talk every black parent had with every 160 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: child sent down South back then, it was a talk 161 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: about what white society expected of black people in the 162 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: Deep South. She told him to speak only when spoken to, 163 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: and to say yes ma'am and no ma'am, and yes 164 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: or and no sir. And if he saw a white 165 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: woman walking down the sidewalk, he was to step off 166 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: the sidewalk and lower his head and wait until she 167 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: had passed to get back on it again, without ever 168 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: looking directly at her or making eye contact. Mamie hoped 169 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: that this talk that she had with him, and the 170 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: fact that he would be in the care of family 171 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: who actually lived in Mississippi and knew all these unwritten 172 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: rules intuitively would keep him safe while he was there. 173 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: He left on August twenty nine. They were running late 174 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: that morning, and when they got to the train station, 175 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: he ran up to the platform without kissing Mami goodbye. 176 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: She called him back and he gave her a kiss 177 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: and his watch, saying he wasn't going to need it 178 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: while he was gone, and she asked if he also 179 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: wanted her to hang on to his father's ring, which 180 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: he was wearing, and he said that he wanted to 181 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: show it off to his cousin's. Maybe had intended to 182 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: go ahead and take the vacation she'd been planning, but 183 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: she couldn't motivate herself to get ready for it. She 184 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: just missed Emmett terribly, and even though they'd been separated before, 185 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: this was different. She was worried sick about him, and 186 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: since the Rights didn't have a phone, it wasn't easy 187 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: for her to check on him. The only way she 188 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,599 Speaker 1: could talk to him was if she called one of 189 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: the Rights neighbors who did have a phone and see 190 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: if they could find him. Maybe got a letter from 191 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: Emment on August enclosed with a note from her aunt 192 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: Lizzie Wright saying what a nice voice she had raised. 193 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: Emmett's letter asked if she could please get his bike 194 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: fixed before he got home. That night, Mamie hosted a 195 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: meeting for her Ladies Club, which was her first real 196 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: social interaction since Emmett had gone to Mississippi. Having people 197 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: around felt like a welcome relief, and everybody stayed up 198 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: so late talk gang and visiting that she made an 199 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: early breakfast before people left, and then went to bed 200 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: to try to get some sleep before church. Then about 201 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: nine thirty in the morning on August Maymie got a 202 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: call from her cousin, Willie May Jones that was Curtis's mother, 203 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: and Willie May told Mamie that some white men had 204 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: come and taken Emmett away from the Rights home in 205 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: the middle of the night. Here's what had happened. On August. 206 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: Emmett and his cousins had driven in some money Mississippi 207 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: to buy some gum and candy at Bryant's grocery store. 208 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: There are a lot of conflicting reports about exactly what 209 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: happened while they were there. Caroline Bryant, the proprietor's wife, 210 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: claimed that he had physically grabbed her, threatened her, and 211 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: made lewd comments to her while he was in the store. 212 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: In the book The Blood of Emmett's Hell was published, 213 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: in which she admitted that all of that was false. Witnesses, 214 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: including some of Emmett's cousins, said that at some point 215 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: Emmett whistled at Caroline. His cousins theorized that it might 216 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: have been to try to impress them or make them laugh, 217 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: and his mother theorized that he had whistled because he 218 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: was stuttering. That was a trick that he had learned 219 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: that could help him get his words out when he 220 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: was having trouble. Regardless, and its cousins weren't impressed or amused, 221 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: they were scared. They all piled back into the car 222 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: and drove away as quickly as possible, even at one 223 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: point abandoning the car to cut through the fields and hide. 224 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: They talked among themselves about whether they should send Emmett 225 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: back to Chicago, but a couple of days later, when 226 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: nothing bad had happened, they forgot about it. But then 227 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: at about two thirty am on August, Caroline Bryant's husband, 228 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: Roy and his brother in law J. W. Milum showed 229 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: up at the right home asking for the boy from Chicago, 230 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: the one who had quote done all that talk. Mose 231 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: and Lizzie Wright. Both tried to reason with them and 232 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: even offered them money to just leave Emmett alone, but 233 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: the two men, who were armed, refused, so that was 234 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: all that they only knew at that point. After she 235 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: got the call from William ay Jones, Mamie called Jean. 236 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: They went together to her mother's house to tell her 237 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: what had happened and to wait for news of Emmett. 238 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: Both women were distraught, especially since they couldn't reach the 239 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: rights for an update. Soon Maymie started calling newspapers, and 240 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: when reporters arrived, she told them that white men had 241 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: come into her uncle's home and money Mississippi and kidnapped 242 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: her son. On Monday morning, Augustin ray Field Moody, the 243 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: nephew of Alma's husband, connected Mamie to the Chicago office 244 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: of the N Double A c P. The N Double 245 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: A CP referred her to William Henry Huff, chairman of 246 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: the Legal Redress Committee. The two men began putting Mamie 247 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: in touch with people and resources in both Mississippi and Illinois. 248 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,359 Speaker 1: Soon Illinois Governor William Stratton, Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley, 249 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: and Congressman William Dawson were involved in the search for Emmon. 250 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: They were making and receiving so many calls that the 251 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: family added a second phone line. That same day, Roy 252 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: Bryant and J. W. Milem were arrested for kidnapping Emmett Till, 253 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: something they both admitted that they had done in Chicago. 254 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: The family kept waiting, making calls and sending money to 255 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: Mississippi to help with the search, and then on Wednesday, 256 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: August thirty one, they got the news a fisherman had 257 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: found Emmett's body in the Tallahatchee River. He had been 258 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: badly beaten and probably shot, and his body had been 259 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: weighed down with the fan of a cotton gin tied 260 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: to his neck with barbed wire. His body was so 261 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: badly disfigured that they were only able to identify him 262 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: by his father's ring, which he was still wearing. And 263 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: Mississippi tallahatche County Sheriff HC. Strider called in a black 264 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: undertaker and told him to bury the body immediately, and 265 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: it's cousin Curtis, called home to make sure Mamie knew 266 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: what was happening. Mamie, of course, did not want her 267 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: son to be buried in Mississippi. She and others started 268 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: making calls adamant that Emmett's body be returned to Chicago, 269 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: and they eventually contacted A. A. Rayner, a black funeral 270 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: director in Chicago who took over the arrangements, and he 271 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: eventually let Mamie know that they could bring the body back, 272 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: but that it would cost three thousand, three hundred dollars. 273 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: That was nearly Mamie's annual salary, but she agreed. Demanding 274 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: that Emmett's body be brought back to Chicago and not 275 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: buried in Mississippi was the first of several actions that 276 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: Mamie would take that would propel her son's death into 277 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: the international spotlight and then go on to spark a 278 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: ground swell of civil rights activism. So we're gonna talk 279 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: about that more. After another quick sponsor break, Emmett Till's 280 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: body arrived in Chicago by train on Friday, September two nine. 281 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: When she asked to see her son, Mamie learned that A. 282 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: Rayner had agreed to conduct the funeral and bury the 283 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: body in the box that it had been shipped in 284 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: without opening the box. That was one of the conditions 285 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: that he had had to agree to in order to 286 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: get the body released. Mamie said if she had to 287 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: get a hammer, she would open it herself. An A. A. 288 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: Rayner finally relented. He basically told her to go home 289 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: and get a little rest, and he would prepare things 290 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: for her to come and view the body. Mamie tell 291 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: Mobile has described the experience of seeing her son's body 292 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: herself in a number of places, including in her memoir 293 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: The Death of Innocence, in the PBS American experience known 294 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: as the Death of Emmett Till, and in the documentary 295 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: The Untold Story of Emmett Louis Till. In short, she 296 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: was methodical, and she refused to turn away, and by 297 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: the time she was done, she had resolved that Emmett 298 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: should have an open casket funeral, to quote, let the 299 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: world see what I've seen. She also chose to have 300 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: pictures of his body published in the Chicago Defender and 301 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: in Jet Magazine, to publications with a dominantly black readership. 302 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: The photographs were then picked up in other publications from there. 303 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: Thousands of people attended Emmett's funeral on September three, with 304 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: tens of thousands more viewing the body which was under 305 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: a glass in the casket, and that was in the 306 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: four days that followed, and at this point the murder 307 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: had become international news, but in the white Southern press, 308 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: much of the media focus was on humanizing pieces on J. W. 309 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: Milum and Roy Bryant, covering their past military service and 310 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: the wholesome lives of their wives and children, and Sheriff 311 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: Strider began spreading the word that he had doubts that 312 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: the body being buried was really Emmett Tills, and that 313 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: he had evidence that the murder had really been staged 314 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: by the double a CP. Emmett Till's body was buried 315 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: on Tuesday, September six, Then on the same day, a 316 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: grand jury indited Roy Bryant and J. W. Milum for murder. 317 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: In Mississippi, it was common knowledge that J. W. Melum 318 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: and Roy Bryant had killed Emmett Till, but public opinion 319 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: in the white community was that they did not need 320 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: to face trial or go to prison over it. Businesses 321 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: began putting out donation jars, eventually raising ten thousand dollars 322 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: for them, even as all five attorneys practicing in the 323 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: town of Sumner, where the trial was to be held 324 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: signed on to represent them pro bono with Tallahatta County 325 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: authorities say mean more interested in spreading rumors and undermining 326 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: the case than in investigating it. The Double A CP 327 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: and civil rights activists, including Medgar Evers, took on their 328 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: own investigation and tried to convince the Department of Justice 329 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: to make it a federal case. Medgar Evers, Ruby Hurley, 330 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: and Amsey Moore, along with others, visited the cotton fields 331 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: around Money, Mississippi, to try to find witnesses who were 332 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: willing to risk their lives by testifying against white men. 333 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: In response, Sheriff Strider said Mississippi did not need or 334 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: want the help of the n Double A CP and 335 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: that the trial would be quote fair and impartial, before 336 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: he went on to say, quote we never had any 337 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: trouble until some of our southern end words go up north, 338 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: and then Double A CP talks to them, and then 339 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: they come back home. The trial began on September nine, 340 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: with the courtroom strictly segregated. The black reporters, witnesses, and 341 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: Detroit Congressman Charles Digs were all restricted to a table 342 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: in a back corner. On Mamie made her first appearance 343 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: in court, she had been receiving death threats since it 344 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: had been reported that she would be going to Mississippi 345 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 1: for the trial. On her way in, white reporters asked 346 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: for a number of questions that implied that she had 347 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: no business being there, and then as she approached the courthouse, 348 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: white boys leaned out of its windows, firing cap guns 349 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: at her, with their father's egging them on. Over the 350 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: course of the trial, mos Wright identified J. W. Milam 351 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: and Roy Bryant as the men who had taken Emmett 352 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. Willie Read, an eighteen 353 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: year old sharecropper, testified he had seen a group of 354 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: people in the back of a pickup truck, including somebody 355 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: he later understood to be Emett till later on. He 356 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: had seen that truck parked outside of a shed belonging 357 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: to one of J. W. Blum's relatives, and passing by 358 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: that shed, he heard quote somebody hollering, and I heard 359 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: some licks like somebody was whipping somebody. Amanda Bradley, who 360 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: lived nearby as well, testified that she had seen four 361 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: white men entering and exiting a barn on the property, 362 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: and all three of these witnesses testified at serious risk 363 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: to their own lives. All three of them fled Mississippi 364 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: after the trial was over because of that threat to 365 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: their lives. Mamie took the stand on the fourth day 366 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: of the trial, and at this point her surname was Bradley, 367 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: and she's identified in court documents as Mamie Bradley. She 368 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: testified as to her complete certainty that the body that 369 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: had come back from Mississippi was that of her son. 370 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: During the cross examination, the defense team asked her a 371 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: number of questions about whether she had life insurance for Emmett, 372 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: as though to so doubt about whether she might have 373 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: had her son killed for the money. You will also 374 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: sometimes in reading about this trial, UH see that Mamie 375 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: said that they asked her questions. That was something along 376 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: the lines of isn't it true that your son is 377 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: really alive in Detroit. I think this was really part 378 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: of the closing arguments and not of her questioning, because 379 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: there's a transcript that was found um and I think 380 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and four of her questioning that doesn't include 381 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: that part. So I think all of that has been 382 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: kind of meshed together in her memory that trial transcript 383 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: was not found until after her death. On September, after 384 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: a little more than an hour of deliberating, a jury 385 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: of twelve white men returned a not guilty verdict in 386 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: the murder trial. Jurors would later say that they could 387 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: have come back much sooner, but they were told to 388 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: make it look good. Mami and several of the other 389 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: people who were with her were not actually in the courtroom. 390 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: They had realized what verdict was going to come back 391 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: and decided they would prefer not to be present for it. 392 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: Along with the murder and funeral, the trial and the 393 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: not guilty verdict sparked international outrage galvanized the black community 394 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: within the civil rights movement, as well as prompting an 395 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: influx of donations to the Double A CP and other 396 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: civil rights organizations. Other key events in the civil rights 397 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: movement quickly followed, including the Montgomery bus boycott and Mamie 398 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: till Mobley's words quote, when people saw what had happened 399 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: to my son, men stood up who had never stood 400 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: up before. After the verdict, Mamie began to travel giving 401 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: speeches about the life and the death of her son 402 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 1: and advocating for civil rights and anti lynching laws, and 403 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: for a time this was under the auspices of the 404 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: Double A CP, but this spell apart due to a 405 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: disagreement about her accepting payments for her speeches. But even 406 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: after that working relationship was over, she continued to travel 407 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: and speak about her son for most of the rest 408 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: of her life. Because Emmett had been kidnapped from one 409 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: county and killed in another, a separate grand jury was 410 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: convened in the matter of the kidnapping after the murder 411 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: trial had concluded, but just before that was to happen, 412 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: Anti Integration Senator James O. Eastland obtained and released the 413 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: details of the death of Emmett's father. This was when 414 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: made Me learned that Louis had been court martialed and 415 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: found guilty of murder and rape. There are a lot 416 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: of questions about this case and about whether Louis Till 417 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: was wrongfully accused, and they're way more than we can 418 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: get into in the scope of this podcast, but they 419 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: are detailed in the book Writing to Save a Life, 420 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: the Louis Till File. But the implication and releasing this 421 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: information to the press was that criminal behavior and sexual 422 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: violence ran in the Till family. The grand jury and 423 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,719 Speaker 1: the kidnapping case of Roy Bryant and J. W. Milam 424 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: did not return an indictment, and the case never went 425 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: to trial, even though both men had already admitted that 426 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: they did it. Maybe went to the Army to try 427 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: to find out why a senator had been given access 428 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: to records that she had not been allowed to have. 429 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: She attempted to petition the President, Dwight D. Eisenhower, but 430 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: he wouldn't meet with her and he didn't return her telegram. 431 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: She tried to press the FBI to open an investigation 432 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: to the death of her son, but Director J. Edgar 433 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 1: Hoover wrote in a memo quote, there has been no 434 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: allegation made that the victim has been subjected to the 435 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: deprivation of any right or privilege which is secured and 436 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: protected by the Constitution and the laws of the United States. 437 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: And then after all of this, I'm January six, Look 438 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: Magazine published an article in which Roy Bryant and J. W. 439 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 1: Milum confessed to killing Emmett till Their version of the story, 440 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: which they were paid about four thousand dollars to tell, 441 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: described Emmett as lewd and indecent and made it sound 442 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: as though they had acted alone, even though other people 443 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: were definitely involved. Off Once again, people were outraged. Since 444 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: the two men had already been found not guilty of murder, 445 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: they could not be tried again, so people called for 446 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: the kidnapping case to be reopened. Mamie tried to sue 447 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: Look Magazine and reporter William Bradford Hughey for defamation, but 448 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: the suit was dismissed because Emmett Till, not his mother, 449 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: was the person that the article defamed. The months after 450 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: the Look Magazine article were particularly hard for Mamie, not 451 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: only because of the way it portrayed her son, but 452 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: also because it became the source that everyone cided when 453 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: talking about the case. It really made her angry that 454 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: a number of black reporters had literally risked their lives 455 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: investigating and reporting about her son, and at this point, 456 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: all of that reporting was disregarded in favor of the 457 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: confession of two white men who had horrible things to 458 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: say about her son while they confessed. It was only 459 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: after a reporter called her to do a follow up 460 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: on her and she just sort of spontaneously said that 461 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: she was going to be a teacher, that she found 462 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: a new focus for her life, and soon she was 463 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: enrolled in Chicago Teachers College. Mamie married Gene Mobley on 464 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: June ninetifty seven while she was studying to be a teacher. 465 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: She graduated coom laude in nineteen sixty and she taught 466 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: until her retirement in Nree and every five years after 467 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: Emmett's murder, she retold his story to reporters covering the 468 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: anniversary of his death and the trial. In addition, she 469 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: cooperated with multiple researchers and historians working on books about 470 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: the case. She appeared in multiple documentaries, was on an 471 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: episode of OPRAH on witnesses of murders during the Civil 472 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: rights era. She was also on a radio program where 473 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: she listened on the line as Roy Bryant talked about 474 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: the case, including saying that Emmett Till had ruined his life. 475 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, she founded a theater group in 476 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: Chicago called the MTL Players. In nineteen seventy five, she 477 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: earned a master's degree in Administration and supervision from Loyola University. 478 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: She continued working with the mt CELL Players and with 479 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: her church, as well as traveling and speaking and participating 480 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: in ceremonies commemorating the civil rights movement for as long 481 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: as her health would allow. Mamie's mother, Alma, died on 482 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: November eleventh. Gen Mobley died on March eighteenth of two 483 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: thousand and Mamie Till Mobley died on January seventh, two 484 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: thousand three, at the age of eighty one. That was 485 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: not long before the debut of the PBS American Experienced 486 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: documentary The Death of Emmett Till, which she appears in. 487 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: She was also working on her memoir at the time 488 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: of her death, and that was published posthumously in May 489 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: two thousand and four. In part because of all of 490 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: this attention that came from her memoir and the American 491 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: Experienced documentary, the FBI reopened the investigation into the murder 492 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: of Emmett Till. It issued a lengthy report in two 493 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: thousand and six, but maintained that the statute of limitations 494 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: had run out for federal civil rights charges. No new 495 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: indictments were issued for people who had previously not been tried, 496 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: and at that point most of the people who were 497 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: involved had died. The FBI's investigation involved exhuming Emmett's body 498 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: for an autopsy. By law, a new casket had to 499 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: be used when the body was reburied, and at first 500 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: the original casket remained at the cemetery. Eventually members of 501 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: the family approached Lonnie Bunch, founding director of the National 502 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: Museum of African American History and Culture, about preserving it, 503 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: and it is now in the museum's collection. The photos 504 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: of her son that she chose to share through Jet 505 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: magazine and the Chicago Defender are now one of Time 506 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: Magazine's one most influential pictures of all time, and in 507 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: her words, quote if it can further the cause of freedom, 508 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: then I will say that he died a hero that 509 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: made me till mobile. She was stronger than I think 510 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: I could have been in the same circumstances. I I 511 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: agree with that, sincement a lot um her name is 512 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: brought up a lot sometimes um as criticism of other mothers, 513 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: which I don't like. The degree of grace and determination 514 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: that she approached so many things with is I like, 515 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: just not if that's an incredibly high bar. Yeah, that's 516 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: like a superhuman standard to hold up for comparison. Yeah yeah, um. 517 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: And it also is really important to note that she 518 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: really she the places that she chose to share the 519 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: pictures of her son were places with a predominantly black audience, 520 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: like that that was who she was most interested in 521 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: making sure they had seen what had happened to her child. 522 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: And while it did also spread outrage among white communities, 523 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: um and and lead to some uh like white involvement 524 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: in the civil rights movement, that overwhelmingly it was something 525 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: that galvanized people and inspired people to act within black communities. 526 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: Um Like when you look at pictures of the funeral, 527 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: the people who who came to see the body into 528 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: the funeral, like, it's a it's an overwhelmingly black crowd. 529 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: I think in more recent years, sometimes on social media 530 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,479 Speaker 1: it gets twisted around with a weird idea that it 531 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: was crucial to getting white people involved in the movement, 532 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: and while that was kind of an after effect like 533 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: that was not the primary source of of inspiring people 534 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: to act. I'm hoping with fingers crossed, the listener mail 535 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: is a little bit of a relief because this is 536 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: a very heavy episode. It is very heavy episode, and 537 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: unfortunately listener Mail is not not like a super fun 538 00:30:53,280 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: time Tracy, I know, uh so we have gotten the 539 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: same question slash comment about our recent episode, the Calicacs 540 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: and the Eugenicists a number of times enough times that 541 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to address it rather than reading anyone particular 542 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: one of the emails. A lot of people have written 543 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: into asked why we did not talk about Margaret Singer 544 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: in that episode, and overwhelmingly these have included an either 545 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: implied or explicit accusation that we didn't bring her up 546 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: because of her because of our personal politics, which is 547 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: not the case. Long story short, that episode was really 548 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: focused on the Calicac family study and the role that 549 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: it played in compulsory sterilization programs. So that episode was 550 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: not about reversible contraception like diaphragms and sperm sides, or 551 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: on the eugenics movement in general, And if it had 552 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: been about either of those things, we definitely would have 553 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: talked about Margaret Singer. But there is a huge difference 554 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: between permanently sterilizing somebody without their concern and fitting them 555 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: for a diaphragm and teaching them how to use it. 556 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: Um If if it had been about birth control, or 557 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: if it had been about the eugenics movement in general, 558 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: we certainly would have talked about Margaret Sanger, and we 559 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: did in fact talk about Margaret Singer in our episode 560 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: on Katherine Dexter McCormick and the development of oral contraception 561 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: because it was relevant to what we were talking about. Basically, 562 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: Margaret Sanger's work and legacy are also really complicated and 563 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: messy and full of nuance, and getting into that would 564 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: have been a just huge and lengthy, uh digression in 565 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: an episode that was really focused on something else. So 566 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: to be clear, it's definitely true that Margaret Singer bought 567 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: into an advocated eugenics and thought that through contraception, humanity 568 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: could quote weed out the unfit, just in her words, 569 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: But unlike what we were talking about in the Calacac episode, 570 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: her work was overwhelmingly focused on choice. She thought that 571 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: people should be able to us not to get pregnant. 572 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: And when she was doing the part of her work 573 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: that was like really focused on birth control advocacy, it 574 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: was illegal to publish or distribute information about contraception, and 575 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: a lot of in a lot of places, contraceptives were 576 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: either illegal themselves or really hard to get, so her 577 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: work was really focused on changing that. She thought that 578 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: preventing pregnancy would help lift people out of poverty and 579 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: help improve their quality of life. And she also thought 580 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: that birth control was the key to reducing the number 581 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: of abortions, which were also illegal and very dangerous. And 582 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: so even when she talked about sterilization, she usually, but 583 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: to be clear, not universally, described it as a choice, 584 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: not as something that would be done in a compulsory way. 585 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: So her work was just focused in a different way 586 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: from the things that we were talking about in that show, 587 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: people also brought up her work with the black community. 588 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: It is also true that Margaret Sanger worked on a 589 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: program specifically to bring contraception into black communities starting in 590 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: about nineteen thirty nine. This was known as the Negro Project, 591 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: and there were and still are people who think that 592 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: this was a covert effort at genocide. But while she 593 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: was definitely pretty paternalistic and how she talked about race, 594 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: which is also two of how she talked about disability, 595 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: she outlined reasons for the Negro Project and the same 596 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 1: way that she outlined the need for birth control among 597 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,240 Speaker 1: poor white communities, which is that it would help people 598 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: lift themselves out of poverty if they had the option 599 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: of having fewer children up. She also thought that having 600 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: a program that was targeted specifically at black communities would 601 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: help counteract the fact that most black people were excluded 602 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: from public health clinics which were only for white patients. 603 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: So in this whole project, she had the support of 604 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 1: a lot of black leaders and activists, but she also 605 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: wrote an observation that black clergy could help gain the 606 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: trust of black communities in a really poorly phrased way, 607 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: like if you read this center, it's like just terribly worded. 608 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: And that wasn't a letter in nineteen thirty nine, And 609 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: this one sentence from that letter, combined with some other 610 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: quotes that are actually fabricated, have led to a persistent 611 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: belief that she went around being like, you know, what 612 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: we could do is just stop having black people if 613 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: we got them out birth control, and like that's that's 614 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: not the case. Um, there are definitely people who who 615 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: believe that, like, white efforts to introduce birth control into 616 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,479 Speaker 1: black communities are an effort at genocide, and like, I don't, 617 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: I feel like that's beyond the scope of what we're 618 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: talking about. But a lot of the points that people 619 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: made about this particular aspect of her work are are 620 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: based on things that were not actually true. So rather 621 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: than raising up all the various other points that people 622 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: made in their emails about this um in order to 623 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,399 Speaker 1: refute them, because people said a lot of false things 624 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,919 Speaker 1: to us in these emails, we are going to link 625 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: to a few fact checks about Margaret Singer in the 626 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: show notes um for this episode. So yeah, long story short, 627 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: we have never turned away from the fact that Margaret 628 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: Singer was into eugenics, but like Margaret Singer was not 629 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: really quite so relevant to this story that we were 630 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: telling in that particular episode. And there you have it. Yeah. Uh, 631 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: if you would like to write to us about this 632 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: or any other podcast or at history podcast at how 633 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com, or also on Facebook at Facebook 634 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: dot com slash miss in history and on Twitter at 635 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,919 Speaker 1: miss in history. Are tumbler is a missed in History 636 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: dot tumbler dot com, or on pinterest pinterest dot com 637 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: slash miss in history. Our instagram is that missing History. Also, 638 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: you can come to our parent company's website, which is 639 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com and find all kinds of 640 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: information about anything your heart desires. 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