WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 102 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.600 A media Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.639 to let you know this is a compilation episode. So 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.080 every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:16.119 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.279 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:20.840 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's got to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.760 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.200 Welcome to karapn Here. I am Andrew of THETU channel 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.440 Andrewism and today I'd like to take some time to 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:40.919 discuss nations, clonialism and the people that constitute them. That 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.519 is of course quite broad, but in the end I 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.320 hope that folks are able to come with a sense 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:50.279 of at least my version of the anarchist position on Nichans, 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.120 the impact of colonization, the pychees of individuals within nitions, 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.320 and the role of national liberation in social revolution. Today 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.920 I'm joined by me Mia. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:08.759 Who oh boy, it great topic. Interesting topic, Yeah. 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.880 Indeed, indeed, indeed, I think part of what makes the 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.880 topic so interesting is because of how for lack of bets, 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:21.600 it's how wiggly some of these tombs are how hard 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.800 to pin down some of these definitions are. So it's 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.679 very important to be clear at the outset what you 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:31.280 mean by a nation, what you mean by national liberation, 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:37.480 that sort of thing. So what is a nation? What 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.959 comes to mind for you? Yeah? 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:49.559 Oh god, yeah, I know I should have pre prepped 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.520 an answer to this. I have a very difficult time 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.919 conceiving of a nation is something that's separated from a state, 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.280 which I know is something a lot of people try 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.400 to do. For me, it's just been sort of permanently 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.800 welded to the nation state in a way that makes 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.679 it hard to sort of think about without conjoining the two. 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:14.360 That's fair, That's fair. I think that that really is 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.960 part of what we're going to end up discussing. Because, 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:19.919 for one, you know, as we'll see, a lot of 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:26.160 nations were formed through the process of colonization and through 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:34.400 the process of incorporation into the global uh you know, superstructure, 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:43.320 global system. And secondly, it is seen to be the 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:48.880 ultimate aim of a nation, the greatest accomplishment of a nation, 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.520 to eventually establish their own state, to have a state 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.600 of their own. We call nations that don't have their 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:59.040 own state state less nations, the Kurds being one of 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.880 the most notable examples. But it really is commonly seen 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:09.000 that the ultimate accomplishment is for the braation of your people, 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.200 is that you establish a state to rule that people 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:19.160 for themselves. Of course, what for themselves actually means becomes 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:25.800 quite clear, as in many cases foreign rulers and the 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.840 practices of foreign rulers just take on a local face. 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.360 Yeah, there's a there's a Curtis joke that goes roughly, 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.280 getting your own nation state means that you speak your 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:43.240 police towrdure you in your own language. Oh, that's fantastic, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:44.160 that is. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:50.080 I like that. I like that. And language really is 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.280 one of the aspects of what it is to be 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.720 a nation, and it is not it's not necessarily the 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.280 only aspect or primary aspect, but it is one aspect. 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:05.360 For example, what is considered the Basque nation, those in 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:10.280 northern Spain and part of southern southwestern France. I believe 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:20.360 their identity is not entirely, but quite significantly tied to 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.360 their language, because it is a language that is completely 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.920 distinct from any other language found in Europe or really 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.000 anywhere else in the world. The language is just one 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.560 aspect the nation. A nation I mean not in the 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.640 sense of a state or a country or political constitution, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.440 but in the sense of an imagined community of people. 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.520 An imagined community of people. I think that imagined aspect 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:50.640 of it is quite important as well. Student see, but 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.560 an imagine the community of people formed on the basis 0:04:53.600 --> 0:05:00.200 of a common language, history, ancestry, society, or culture, who 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.280 are conscious of their autonomy. So it's not enough that 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.880 a group of people merely share a language, or share history, 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.960 or share ancestry, or share society or share culture. It's 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.720 important that firms we defined as a nation, that they 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.520 are conscious of the fact that they share those things 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.479 in common, and that they use that consciousness to develop 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:26.400 some sense of an imagine shared identity, of imagined community, 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.080 whether or not each individual in that community knows all 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:33.800 the other individuals in that community. Nations are not necessarily 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:39.880 geographically bound, like you know, certain conceptions of a nation maybe, 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:45.960 but rather often diasporic, and some nations even united under 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.800 a banner of nations, such as in the case of 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.800 pan Africanism, which is a form of nation movement or 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.400 pan nation movement that seeks to unite the thousands of 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:01.960 ethnic groups and also the diaspora of the continents of 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:09.760 Africa in response to the exploitation of outsiders. In fact, 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.240 the pan Afka nation is really a quintessential example of 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:19.560 how colonism creates nations while exploiting them. And although Native 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:24.160 America in populations retained slightly more of their heritage than 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:29.960 the displaced African population in North America, though this is 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:35.760 not to deny what was lost their force. Displacement also 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:40.039 created something of a shared ethnic identity, which is where 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.400 you see movements like Red Power popping up during the 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.920 height of Soviriety era. Prior to the process of colonization, 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:53.360 they were distinct in their cultural groupings. This group would 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:58.279 be Blackfoot, this group would be create, this group would. 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:02.320 Be Sue or something right. 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.880 This script would be Sue. But then as they had 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.880 the shared experience of colonization, they began to develop a 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.920 sense of shared identity against those who are colonize in them, 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:19.560 a sense of solidarity that transcended their previous cultural distinctions 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.040 and designations. Not that those designations don't still exist, but 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:27.480 many have adopted a sort of panoration above that as 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:32.760 a vehicle through which they can undertake their struggle. However, 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.960 mere opposition between a colonized group and a colonizing force 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.600 is not the only way that clonism creates new nations. 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:47.360 Also through social stratification, through hybridization, through the imposition of 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:51.120 new religions, through new education systems, new languages, and new 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.280 administrative boundaries. All of those are ways in which cluonism 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.280 can develop u nations. For example, the case of the Metis, 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:08.400 a cultural intermingling and intermarriage between two radically different groups 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.440 ended up with the birth of the new nation of 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:18.320 the Maties in the unique colonial history of Canada, and 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.440 as we've see in nations are often the targets of 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:26.080 subraction and of subjugation and Eurasia, African peoples were stolen 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:29.080 from the constant and thoroughly stripped of their languages, histories, 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.000 and cultures, and continues to be oppressed throughout much of 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:36.000 the so called New World. In the United States, African 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:41.760 Americans faced centuries of systemic racism. In Brazil, the afric 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:48.400 Brazilian population also faced similar historical discrimination. Similarly in Colombia 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.640 and so on and so on. Indigenous nations across the 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.520 world also continue to be denied their autonomy as minorities 0:08:55.559 --> 0:09:01.040 within a domineerian state. Palestinians and Israel have faced a 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:06.359 long standing conflict due to the raisure of their self determination. 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.280 Colgin and Released, as I've mentioned, spread across several countries 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.400 and do not have a country of their own, so 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:18.119 they have historically sought independence or at least autonomy. Aboriginal 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.640 Australians have faced struggles related to land rights, cultural preservation 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.480 and self governance, and although New Zealand has made progress 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.160 in recognizing the rights of the diligious Maria people, Marian 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.800 New Zealand have also dealt with issues related to land 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:38.320 ownership and cultural preservation, whether be the Armenians under the 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.840 Ottoman Empire in the past, or the current subjugation of 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:47.679 Hawaiian Puerto Rico under the US, or the Tibetan population 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.280 still under the firm of the Chinese state. Really could 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:53.160 go on and on. I really could go on and on. 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.560 Across the world, struggles have been an rb and fought 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:01.000 by nations for the liberation and much of their suffering 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:05.000 a struggle is thanks to the process of colonization. Our 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.880 present national borders and demographics were largely shaped and dictated 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:13.560 by the colonization and conquest of a few nations from Europe. 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:20.760 But what is colonialism? Exactly? As one anthropologist Chris quote 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.800 Right put it, colonialism is the establishment and control of 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.480 a territory for an extended period of time by a 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:31.240 sovereign power over a subordinate and other people which are 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.720 segregated and separated from the rule and power. He goes 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.200 on to say that features the colonal situation and include 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.120 political and legal domination over the other society, relations of 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:45.840 economic and political dependence, and institutionalized racial and cultural inequalities 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.680 to impose their dominant physical force through raids, expropriation of 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:55.840 labor and resources, imprisonment and objective murders. Enslavement of both 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:01.280 the indigenous people and their land is the primary objective colonization. 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:09.559 Through colonization, native cultures must be destroyed either strict crushed, empty, subsumed, cooperated, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:14.280 or dismantled. And since colonism relies on a dichotomy of 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:19.240 superiority and inferiority, the colonialists must impose their own culture 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:24.720 over the native population, from language to dressed to daily practice. 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:30.080 That culture, which by the way, becomes native through that 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.520 process of colonization, and that already gets into the whole 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:39.319 discussion of what makes something native, what makes a people native. 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:44.320 There are two definitions that I balance try and dance between, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:49.480 one being indigeneity through land relationship and the other being 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.120 indignity through colonial relationship. And so I'm referring to the 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.240 indignacy through colonial relationship when I say that a culture 0:11:56.360 --> 0:12:00.880 or people becomes native through that process of colonization, because 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:07.840 prior to colonial inclusions, there was no non native to 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:13.000 define themselves against. They just were. You'll need to define 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.719 yourself as native to a place when an outsider or 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.640 an invasive force is pushing you out of that place 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:25.360 or trying to dominate you within that place. The old 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:32.440 forms of colonization are largely over, but the spirit of 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:37.240 colonization still lingers. It is a specter in the spheres 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:42.680 of culture and politics and economics. The colonial complex created 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:47.480 the world we see today and left quite the impression 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:54.840 psychologically on both the colonized and the colonizer. French Tunisian 0:12:54.840 --> 0:13:00.400 writer Albert Mami wrote what I guess it to be 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:05.720 a very essential work on the relationship between the colonizer 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.120 and the colonized. That work that book is called the 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.520 Colonized and the Colonized was published in nineteen fifty seven, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.360 and it was written and of course in a very 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.160 important time, in a time when many national liberation movements 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.640 were quite active, and so this work is often held 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:28.079 up with other important works in that anti colonial milieu, 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.440 including France Phenons, The Direction of the Earth, Black Skin, 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:38.679 White Masks, and IMA's discourse on clonialism. In the book 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.880 The Colonized and the Colonized, now, he spent some time 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.920 discussing the psychology of both, and he splits the condition 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.640 psychological conditions the colonized and the colonized into four parts, 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:57.320 the colonizer who accepts, the colonizer who refuses, the colonized 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:03.800 who accepts, and the colonized who refuses. So first there's 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:10.840 the colonizer who accepts. I've called that colonizer Christopher for 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:18.319 obvious reasons, that being Columbus. And so the Christopher accepts 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:23.240 his role as a colonizer, he becomes a colonist. That 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:24.960 means he has to accept the fact that his position 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.160 of privilege is non legitimate. So the any way he 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.200 could really enjoy his position would be to absolve himself 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.280 of the conditions of the guilt of the conditions under 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:39.080 which he was attained. That's why Christopher forcifies history, creates 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.680 racist mythology, rewrites laws, and attempts to whitewash his legacy. 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.520 That's why he emphasizes his superiority while castness, persions, and 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.560 the colonized. He has to do whatever it takes to 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.520 justify his evils, to uplift himself to the skies while 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:59.400 grinding those below him underground. Deep down, Christopher knows all 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.120 of his master up, but he can't admit that to himself. 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.400 He has to keep degrading the colonized, and so, just 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.880 as the colonal situation manufactures the colonized, Christopher the colonialist 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:15.120 is also transformed. Now he chairs on torture, discrimination, and massacre. 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.000 He becomes a reactionary, a conservative, and a fascist. But 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.000 the condemnation that he carries in his heart can ever 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.520 truly be raised. It pisses him off that he relies 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:29.080 in the colonize to maintain the colony, even though he 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.080 came looking for profit and already has a homeland. But 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.480 he has to direct his anger somewhere. So becomes a racist, 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:40.160 and not just any racism, a racism. So fundamentally ingrained 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:46.160 in his personality. Racism built on three major components. One 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.080 there exists some major gulf between him and the colonized. 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.680 Two that he can exploit these differences to his benefit, 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:59.120 and three that these differences are absolute and cannot be changed. Therefore, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.680 he's able to remain separate from the community the colonized 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.120 by holding any social mobility. And he's able to continue 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:10.480 to justify superiority because honestly, circular logic, right, these people 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:12.560 are inferior because they aren't at my level, and they 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.480 aren't at my level because I keep them in it 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.640 because I keep them in their inferior position, and on 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.480 and on and on. Added bonus, of course, he gets 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:24.000 to feel good about himself. While doing so, he becomes 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:29.200 a humanitarian. Surely the colonize needed him to bring the 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:34.600 light of civilization. Look at them, so stupid and sivile. 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.120 All this is natural and need to know, so he 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:43.640 has nothing to worry about. It is divine grace that 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.360 has brought him to this place. It is a manifest 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:52.960 destiny that he continues this tradition. And I mean if 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.160 he enjoys a couple of perks in his quest to 0:16:55.240 --> 0:17:02.880 civilize them. Well, surely is just justice should be grateful Christopher, 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:11.359 benevolent master of the natural order, no question. And really 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.960 this is why missus there was right to say. The 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:20.320 colonization dehumanizes even the most civilized man. It inevitably tends 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.840 to change him who undertakes it that the colonizer, who, 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.600 in order to ease his conscience, gets into the habit 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.200 of seeing the other man as an animal, accustoms himself 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.040 to treating him like an animal, and tends objectively to 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:39.840 transform himself into an animal. No offense to animals, of course, 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:40.760 I'm just quotients. 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:41.120 There. 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.960 On the flip side of the coin is the colonizer 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:55.840 who refuses John. You see, not every colonizer becomes a 0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:03.000 colingless John tries to just the role, but he is 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.760 still a colonizer. He tries to ignore his position of privilege, 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.720 but he kind of escaped mentally from a concrete situation. 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.800 He kind of refused the ideology of crinalism while continuing 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.000 to live with its actual relationships, while continuing to benefit 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:25.680 from the privileges he half heartedly denounces. See, colonial relations 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.720 can't be boiled down to individual feelings, so it doesn't 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:34.080 matter much materially. If John accepts or rejects it, it 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.920 doesn't matter if he feels guilty or not. His identity 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:42.000 is fundamentally defined in relation to colonization. He's still part 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.240 of the oppression group. He shares in their good fortune 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.880 and would likely share their faith. It makes it clear 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.840 that the truth is between colonizer and colonized. There is 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:59.760 only room for forced labor, intimidation, pressure, police, taxation, theft, rape, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:06.560 upulsory crops, contempt, mistrust, arrogance, self complacency, swinishness, brainless elites, 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:12.440 degraded masses, no human contact, but relations of domination and submission. 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.719 Was sh the colonizing man into a classroom monitor, an 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.200 army sergeant, a prison guard, a slave driver, and the 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:25.440 indigenous man into an instrument of production. Even if John 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:29.240 is a leftist, a progressive trying his best to assist 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.200 the national liberation to colonize people's he's still in a 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:36.400 rough situation. Of course, not many colonizers have actually been 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.800 you know about it like that. But even if John 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.560 was to create a world or colonization, maybe hard for 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.160 him to picture his situation change in all that much 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.000 He's accustomed to privilege and so equality is probably going 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.440 to feel like oppression. You can't imagine not being who 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.240 he is with the comfortable domination of his culture and language, 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.840 he's ever had to accommodate others before, he's had to think, 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.880 oh wait, maybe I should try and learn their language, 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:11.359 try and incorporate elements of their cultural moriors. He still 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.320 holds the subtle vestiges of the racist ideology that his 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.760 country was built on, and he will have to fight 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:23.240 his own class interests and his own fellow colonizers. Revolution 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.960 would require the decimation of his current identity and the 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:36.240 rebooth of another. And that decision, that gargantuan task, maybe 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:40.879 too challenging for some people to undertake. So, miir, what 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.960 do you think of the position of the colonizer who 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.400 accepts and the colonizer who refuses. 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:51.359 One of the things that I think is interesting about 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:55.439 this is that the original concept of privilege was something 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:58.560 that came out of like this specific kind of analysis 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:02.760 was about like like it was it was, it was 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:08.040 about French settlers in Algeria, and you know, it was, 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:09.640 it was, it was, it was. It was originally something 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.879 along basically along these similar lines where it's like it 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:17.680 doesn't really matter what your ideological beliefs are if you're 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.600 sort of like a French settler in Algeria, like you 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:25.000 just automatically have privilege that like other people didn't. And 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.840 this has been sort of like I don't know, I 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:32.159 like the original sort of context of what this analysis 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.920 was has been sort of worn down. But I think 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:36.520 I don't know, Like I think I think it is 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.360 colonizers like this is this is a structural position, right, 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:43.720 like you know, the the sort of you can't sort 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:47.800 of individualism your way out of a structural condition. Yeah, 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:50.879 And I think that's something people sort of have this 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.720 incredible capacity to sort of believe about themselves and it's 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:59.240 just not really true. And that's something that's very difficult 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:03.040 to sort of like actually substantively confront. But I think 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:05.720 it's why this analysis of stuff. 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:11.480 Is useful exactly exactly. It's not enough to just say, oh, well, 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:14.040 I don't think this is right, I think this is wrong. 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:19.320 That doesn't change anything materially. It's when you act to 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:26.360 challenge the dismantle, to confront, and to act in cell 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:31.720 the arity with those facing those challenges in a material 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:38.679 way that any of it really matters. I think it 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.520 was particularly politin and of course Mami is writing this, 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:47.680 and Cesaire wrote in a time when colonization is really 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:53.440 at or rather the confrontation against colonizations really added to Zenith. 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:57.879 And so for those of us in the twenty first century, 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:01.879 in twenty twenty three now who are looking back, we're saying, 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.400 we might think, oh, well, surely this is a data analysis, 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:10.880 a dated way of looking at these relationships. But upon 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:16.639 through the inspection, it really continues to be quite topical 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:24.920 when you look at, for example, self proclaimed allies. Looking 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:30.320 at how Mami discusses the colonizer who refuses really gives 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.640 you a sense of I think, at least how far 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:37.560 you need to be willing to go in your allyship 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:43.879 versus how far most people have reached. Even today, we 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:49.840 can ask ourselves and those who maybe see themselves a 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:55.320 bit in the colonizer who refuses, ask yourself, how far 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:59.800 I mean you may recognize your privileges even while still 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:04.720 you know in enjoying them, but how far might you 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:09.360 be willing to go to see an end to this system? 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:14.600 We speak about how the loss of privilege can make 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:19.719 equality feel like oppression, but truly grappling with that. What 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:25.600 would it mean, for example, English to no longer be 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:30.919 the dominant language? You know, what would it mean for 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:35.720 us to get used to will in which we might 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:38.800 have to learn another language? And then I've been thinking 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:45.560 about recently, even while occupying the position of a colonized subject, 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:50.160 I speak English, and that is a privilege. I speak 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:53.840 English natively, and I mean I'm trying to learn another language. 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:58.280 I'm trying to learn Spanish, which is another colonized the language. 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:00.359 Yeah, that's sort of one of the other things. It's like, 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:02.679 you know, for me, it's it's like, Okay, you have English, 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:04.960 it's this colonial language. You're a Chinese, which is like 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:09.439 also colonial language. And I learned some Spanish. It's like, well, 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:13.000 all right, and that's a third colonial language destruct the towers. 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:17.040 Yeah exactly. And this when we get into this sort 0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:22.840 of discussion about like actually postclualism and anti colonial struggle 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:30.240 and how you go about anti colualism, right, because there 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:32.800 is one of their different approaches. One could take different paths. 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:36.280 I suppose we could follow there's an anticlonial approach where 0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:41.080 we could say, you know what, let's just try and 0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:47.640 recreate pre colonial society. Right, So everybody tries to learn 0:25:48.000 --> 0:25:50.560 the languages that they feel as though they might have 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:55.920 spoken if not under clonal system, if not, if Clonal's 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:59.439 history had not happened. And then we try to re 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:06.200 implement those languages, and reimpose those languages, and dismantle certain 0:26:06.240 --> 0:26:09.520 institutions and structures and whatever the case may be, try 0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:17.000 to basically erase the impact of colonization from history. And 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:24.639 then there's another path where we recognize, well, maybe we 0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:32.800 cannot undo colonization, and truthfully we can't write. But going forward, 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:39.600 how do we intend to dismantle and to rework and 0:26:39.680 --> 0:26:46.199 to create a new you know, taking from the past 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:50.479 to build the future, but not being bound to that past. 0:26:52.560 --> 0:27:03.680 How do we, for example, let go of certain binds 0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:10.440 on language, or certain ways of communicating, or certain ways 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:17.040 we organize systems, or certain customs and roles and obligations. 0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:22.679 And I'm varying a bit from the intended topic of 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:28.040 psychology of colonization, but I do want us to think 0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:30.919 about whether what role we regardless of what role we 0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:34.480 see ourselves in this discussion, how do we pursue an 0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:37.320 anti clar future. What does that look like? What paths 0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:42.800 should we be taken, and how might that path chafe 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:48.440 against our current identity? How am that path chafe against 0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:54.520 our current privileges, our current comforts. Yes, we are as workers, 0:27:56.080 --> 0:28:01.680 all oppressed and exploited, but at the same time as 0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:05.160 we recognize there are certain privileges that some have over others, 0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:08.520 whether it be in the realm of race or gender, 0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:13.600 or ability or language. And if we are going to 0:28:13.600 --> 0:28:15.520 be pursuing a sequean so we have to ask ourselves, 0:28:15.560 --> 0:28:21.680 how might those privileges be affected? And have we truly 0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:27.040 confronted our comfort level with those privileges being affected. I 0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:31.760 think that's part of the broader effort of decolonizing the mind. 0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:35.000 And when I speak about it in my video and 0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:38.960 why Revolutionary's therapy, the idea of like really truly breaking 0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:41.960 down a lot of these ideas that we have about 0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:46.520 ourselves and about the world and questioning all of it, 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:50.360 deconstructing and reconstructing all of it. But then when I 0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:55.960 get too far, of course, sincere called the colonization thingification. 0:28:56.840 --> 0:29:01.040 So let's turn our attention now to those things. Let's 0:29:01.040 --> 0:29:05.680 discussed the situation of the colonized in this case, Candice, 0:29:06.480 --> 0:29:10.360 and that defined by the images and myths that surround 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:16.600 them and tell them who they are. The colonized have 0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:20.320 no way out of their condition within the colonial order. 0:29:21.320 --> 0:29:23.880 They aren't free to choose between being colonized or not 0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:28.600 being colonized. They just are colonized. And so Candace understands 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:31.000 this in her whole life, She's had to grapple with 0:29:31.040 --> 0:29:34.040 the negative portraits of herself. They were created by the colonizer, 0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:38.880 all the images that were used to support the clonal 0:29:38.920 --> 0:29:44.360 situation that raised the colonizer and humbled the colonized. They 0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:48.720 justified the colonizer as privilege, that painted the colonized as 0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:54.160 inert and the colonizer as active. That made it seem 0:29:54.200 --> 0:29:58.200 as though the colonizer, as the colonizer, was doing the 0:29:58.240 --> 0:30:03.200 colonized a fever, that their labor was actually and the 0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:07.680 employment was actually necessary, that it was charity that the 0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:16.240 colonizer was bringing to their otherwise lazy masters. Being exposed 0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:19.680 to that kind of message and from a young age, 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:24.560 really does a number on people, not just in the 0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:28.280 realm of colonization, but in other spheres as well. We 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:32.800 see that with patriarchy, of course, how messages from an 0:30:32.800 --> 0:30:38.120 early age affect how boys and girls and others perceive 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:43.360 themselves and perceive the world around them, and perceive others 0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:50.240 in the cloning context. This means that some who are 0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:57.200 colonized end up internalizing and accepting wholesale the messages that 0:30:57.240 --> 0:31:00.560 they're receiving. So kind of thinks to herself. Perhaps the 0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:03.880 colonizers right. Perhaps we are lazy, perhaps we are shifted, 0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:07.560 perhaps we are timid and weak, and this degrading portrait 0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:11.480 ends up being accepted. It's usually one of the final 0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:15.640 steps of colonization, the colonization of the mind. Once the 0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:20.560 colonize begins to tolerate rather than resist colonization, all they 0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:24.480 can really look to do is attempt to assimilate, which 0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:28.680 is impossible by a design. Does mean that Candice won't try. 0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:32.640 She sheds the memories of her ancestors and the practices 0:31:32.720 --> 0:31:36.120 institutions of her culture. She embraces the colonizers' will, and 0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:39.360 all these institutions is right and just. The colonizers selve, 0:31:39.400 --> 0:31:42.719 and the colonizers whip the colonizes God, and the colonizers' school. 0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:49.880 Her children are sent to these schools built by the 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:54.960 colonizer to erase and replace a people's history, traditions, and language. 0:31:55.560 --> 0:32:03.400 She and her kin are imbued with double consciousness. She's 0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:07.840 trapped in the sunken place, performing for the colonizer in 0:32:07.880 --> 0:32:12.520 a home country that don't feels foreign. Double consciousness is 0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:19.840 a particularly useful concept, first coined by WB. Du Bois 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:23.680 in the Souls of Black Folk in nineteen oh three. 0:32:24.400 --> 0:32:30.200 He was speaking specifically about African Americans, but the concept 0:32:30.240 --> 0:32:34.240 does apply in the contexts as well. Double consciousness is 0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:38.920 the dual self perception experienced by subordinate peoples in an 0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:45.960 oppressive society. It is looking at yourself through your own 0:32:46.200 --> 0:32:50.040 eyes and simultaneously looking at yourself through the eyes of 0:32:50.040 --> 0:32:55.600 a racist society, looking at who you are, and also 0:32:55.680 --> 0:33:01.040 looking at what the dominant society sees and thinks of 0:33:01.120 --> 0:33:04.360 who you are. Of course, the voice concept was further 0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:07.880 built upon, and you know, people speak about her things 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:11.920 such as triple consciousness, and in some ways the idea 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:19.000 of double consciousness is can't be tied with the conversation 0:33:19.280 --> 0:33:24.920 of intersectionality. But they are those who experience that double consciousness, 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:33.240 and rather than reasserting their view of themselves and their people, 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:38.560 they accept the negative view held by the dominant society. 0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:44.400 They surround themselves the language of that dominant society kindnesses 0:33:44.440 --> 0:33:47.960 world from the street signs, the documents to the courts, 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:53.320 the bureaucracyeded industry, or use the colonizing language. While her 0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:57.040 mother tongue, the one used tenderly by her ancestors, the 0:33:57.080 --> 0:34:00.200 one that sustained in the most feelings, emotions and dreams, 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:05.120 is he valued and degraded. Candice loses far more than 0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:10.160 she gains by history, a culture future. She rejects herself, 0:34:10.840 --> 0:34:16.600 self love and liberation itself. She rejects herself self, love 0:34:16.920 --> 0:34:21.480 and liberation itself. I tending to model herself after the colonizer, 0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:26.640 or rather crush herself into conformity, she gains self hate, shame, 0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:31.320 and alienation. She sees her own people through the eyes 0:34:31.840 --> 0:34:36.960 the condonations and accusations of the colonizer. She's atomized and 0:34:37.080 --> 0:34:42.840 estranged from her people and rejected by the colonizer, utterly defeated. 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:48.000 But when he offers another path, an alternative mindset in 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:52.800 the colonized who refuses. You see, like Candace, not knows 0:34:52.840 --> 0:34:57.120 that there will never be emancipation within the colonial relationship. 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:01.560 But unlike Candace, they know that there is no liberty 0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:06.560 in a similation revolt is the only way out. An 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:10.239 absolute condition requires an absolute solution, and there can be 0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:14.840 no compromise. Deliberation is a process of self recovery and 0:35:14.880 --> 0:35:18.480 autonomous dignity. They must shake off the force images and 0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:22.279 boldly attack the institutions of oppression. But even in their 0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:26.680 resistance that still bears the traces of colonization. They still 0:35:26.680 --> 0:35:29.320 share some of the values, techniques, and methods of the colonizer. 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:33.880 They still speak the language the colonizer can understand. To 0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:37.439 be truly emancipated, that must work to rebuild a new, 0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:43.560 authentic and self assured identity for themselves and their people. 0:35:44.440 --> 0:35:48.240 That must reclaim and transform that which the colonizers consider negative, 0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:53.359 must take pride in all their wrinkles and moods, never 0:35:53.440 --> 0:35:57.160 shying away from their colonization, but accepting it as a 0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:05.200 fact of their experience, their history, and yet overcoming that colonization. However, 0:36:05.200 --> 0:36:09.880 there is the risk of continuing to define yourself in 0:36:09.960 --> 0:36:13.880 relation to protest, in relation to revolt, and in relation 0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:19.960 to colonization. At some point, maybe not now, but at 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:25.719 some point not we'll need to move beyond that means. 0:36:25.719 --> 0:36:30.600 The definition what that future looks like is anyone's guests 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:36.879 and also up to everyone to help build I hope 0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:42.240 you appreciated this. Sometimes meander and dive into the minds 0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:46.359 of the colonizer and the colonized. The fight is not over. 0:36:47.640 --> 0:36:50.839 The psychological, political, and economic consequences of colonization are still 0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:54.080 fell to this day. The mentalities and conditions that discussed 0:36:54.080 --> 0:36:58.480 still exist in very extents today. Hopefully this helps us 0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:02.640 to better understand client's impact on us, so that we 0:37:02.680 --> 0:37:07.759 can deconstruct that Leviathan together to create a freer and 0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:13.799 what diverse and more humane world. Next time, I'll be 0:37:13.840 --> 0:37:17.759 discussing the role of national liberation in the struggle for 0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:22.600 freedom and what precisely that would entail. As I didn't 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:41.200 have time to get into it in this part. Welcome 0:37:41.200 --> 0:37:43.640 toake it happen Here. I am Andrew of theature channel 0:37:43.680 --> 0:37:47.719 of Andrewism. Last time I spoke about clonalism's effect on 0:37:47.800 --> 0:37:51.120 the psyche of the people within it, and today I 0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:53.239 want to talk about how people under the thumb of 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:57.520 clonalism go about deliberation and how that struggle fits within 0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:04.440 some version of anomic asnalysis. National liberation is a struggle 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:10.000 against the relationship of exploitation and domination inflicted upon a nation. 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:14.880 It's a struggle against the domination of one people by another, 0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:22.240 often centered on questions of language, culture, welfare, equality, and land. 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:26.640 It has consequences, and it's not something where you can 0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:31.560 just stand by mutually and ignore. In fact, ignoring national 0:38:31.600 --> 0:38:37.400 liberation struggles would been sided with national oppression. There's no 0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:43.320 centrist take here. There is no both sides to the 0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:47.200 oppression of a people by another. Of course, that doesn't 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:52.239 mean that national liberation struggles are free of critique or 0:38:52.960 --> 0:38:59.560 necessarily morally righteous. National libriation struggles are usually quite diverse. 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:02.959 Within them, their many tendencies at play, from the most 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:06.680 reactionary to the most revolutionary. I don't know if any 0:39:06.719 --> 0:39:08.440 immediity come to mind. Fiumia. 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:15.759 Oh god, yeah, there's I mean, you know, I think 0:39:15.840 --> 0:39:19.600 I always think about right is like China's a well, 0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:22.080 it kind of unique. I mean, there's there's a lot 0:39:22.120 --> 0:39:25.640 of countries that you get multiple like national liberation movements. 0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:27.520 China is kind of unique and that we had two 0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:31.799 nominally left wing national liberation movements and like one of them, 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:35.080 one of them is the KMT who like the the 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:38.160 the the the end of their natlib arc is like 0:39:38.840 --> 0:39:41.919 training a bunch of desk squads in El Salvador because 0:39:41.920 --> 0:39:45.600 they've gotten so good at killing peasants that like, you know, 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:47.040 this is what they're doing with their life. And the 0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:49.520 other one is CCP and it's like, well, okay, like great, 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:53.400 great job, guys, like liberated, We've liberated a lot of people. 0:39:53.520 --> 0:39:58.080 We've like you know, I don't know, it's it's I 0:39:58.080 --> 0:39:59.600 think I think there's sort of two ways of looking 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:02.520 at that, where it's like you have on the one hand, 0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:03.920 you can look at it from the sort of like 0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:07.200 worker's perspective, where it's like, well, yeah, okay, so both 0:40:07.600 --> 0:40:10.680 you have your two national liberation movements and both of 0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:13.360 them end up machine gunning about a million workers depending 0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:17.040 on like you know, in offset from each other in 0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:19.280 about forty years. But you know, you have the Shaghai 0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:22.560 massacre and you have the cultural revolution. And then I 0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:24.799 think the other thing that's important when you're looking at 0:40:24.840 --> 0:40:29.800 like a gnatlib movement is like whose nation is being liberated? 0:40:30.600 --> 0:40:33.200 And this is something you get with like Indonesia. Right, 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:36.920 you know, you have the national liberation movement, but then 0:40:37.960 --> 0:40:41.720 you simultaneously have like the occupation of West Papua. 0:40:42.480 --> 0:40:47.800 Yeah, it's almost like a Russia nest egg of national oppression, 0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:51.080 like the like Adonesia is being oppressed by the Dutch 0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:54.520 and then Indonesia and sulf oppression if you for West 0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:57.719 Papua and East Timor and all those different places. 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:01.080 Yeah, and you see this a lot with like, you know, 0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:02.440 I don't know. This is why, like I think I 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:04.800 keep coming back to like whose nation is being liberated 0:41:04.800 --> 0:41:06.920 the thing because it's like, you know, you get this 0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:08.399 with a lot of like the sort of pan Air 0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:11.120 movements and it's like, well, okay, we're doing like resistance 0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:14.120 to sort of like French or British colonialism, and then 0:41:14.360 --> 0:41:17.320 like yes, this is this is okay if you are Arab, 0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:20.040 like God help you. If you're a Curred or like 0:41:20.600 --> 0:41:24.520 CD or like you know, so there's there's always these 0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:27.920 sort of I don't know, you have to be careful 0:41:27.920 --> 0:41:30.320 about who wins the national liberation. 0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:38.320 Movement exactly exactly, because not a whay a national liberations 0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:46.799 struggle is happening. They're most likely minorities that are not 0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:51.440 encapsulated in that you know, they're always going to be 0:41:51.600 --> 0:41:55.200 populations of people who are not of that nation. Within 0:41:55.400 --> 0:42:00.040 the territory of the national liberation struggle and then be 0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:05.200 on that they're also within national liberation struggles other ongoing struggles, 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:10.520 including class struggle. While the oppressed classes might claim to 0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:13.479 national liberation struggle in an effort to defend against foreign 0:42:13.560 --> 0:42:17.880 subjugation and exploitation, the capitalist class is using that struggle 0:42:17.960 --> 0:42:21.239 for national liberation to consolidate their own power and monopolize 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:24.799 their own exportation the working class. A lot of capitalists, 0:42:24.800 --> 0:42:28.000 their whole investment in national liberation boils down to I 0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:30.360 don't like the fact that I have to compete with 0:42:30.440 --> 0:42:34.200 foreign capitalists. I want to compete with local capitalists so 0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:40.280 I can come out on top. And yeah, that's not cool. Yeah, 0:42:40.320 --> 0:42:42.920 And then I think. Another thing that gets conflated when 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:45.680 you start talking about national liberation the liberation of a 0:42:45.760 --> 0:42:50.760 nation is the concept of nationalism. 0:42:51.560 --> 0:42:51.759 Right. 0:42:53.120 --> 0:43:00.759 Nationalism is a program that has been proposed, or rather 0:43:00.880 --> 0:43:04.080 a suite of programs I've been proposed as the solutions 0:43:04.160 --> 0:43:07.200 national libration struggles, because I can't even say that nationalism 0:43:07.280 --> 0:43:11.920 is a single program. Nationalism itself is quite diverse, as 0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:15.920 we'll soon see. But nationalism is only one response, one 0:43:16.000 --> 0:43:19.120 possible response. It may be the most common response, but 0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:22.840 it's only one possible response to the national liberation struggle. 0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:27.040 And then it's also the terminology that gets modeled when 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:31.200 you start talking about nationalism, right because, as I defined, 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:36.560 national liberation is the struggle of an exploited people against 0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:41.440 a dominating group or against their domination, just generally necessarily 0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:45.000 against one specific group, could be multiple groups, but it's 0:43:45.040 --> 0:43:49.719 the struggle of a people against their domination. However, when 0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:56.200 you get into nationalism, there are forms of nationalism developed 0:43:56.280 --> 0:44:03.360 by oppressive groups, developed by the oppressors. Sometimes they developed 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:08.600 on nationalism in order to more effectively oppress the people 0:44:08.600 --> 0:44:15.040 they oppress it, and so, and you know, you can 0:44:15.120 --> 0:44:22.480 even argue that there are cases where oppressed nations adopt 0:44:22.640 --> 0:44:28.960 nationalism as strategy for their liberation and end up pursuing 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:33.160 a form of nationalism that is quite similar to that 0:44:33.280 --> 0:44:38.520 which they were being oppressed under. There's one immediate example 0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:42.000 that comes to mind, if you know what I mean. 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:45.320 I have like nine so I'm not entirely sure what 0:44:45.480 --> 0:44:47.400 you're pointing at or nine. 0:44:47.560 --> 0:44:49.279 Okay, okay, what are you thinking of? 0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:52.520 Okay, well, okay, I wanted to talk about this. I 0:44:52.560 --> 0:44:54.759 think there's like a very there's like a kind of 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:57.640 Chinese nationalism that does this a lot, but this is 0:44:57.760 --> 0:45:00.720 I think a kind of common thing of like they're 0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:05.760 one of the sort of responses to colonization that's pretty common. 0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:13.200 Is this really really this sort of like like quintupling 0:45:13.239 --> 0:45:17.600 down on patriarchy where you know, you like because one 0:45:17.600 --> 0:45:19.919 of the effects of colonization obviously is like the sort 0:45:19.920 --> 0:45:23.360 of like one of the sort of psychological things is 0:45:23.360 --> 0:45:26.200 is this sort of like you know, is this installation 0:45:26.600 --> 0:45:29.520 of inferiority into the minds of the people who being colonized. 0:45:29.560 --> 0:45:30.960 And so one of the ways people respond to this 0:45:31.120 --> 0:45:34.400 is by being like, no, like the colonizers are wrong, 0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:37.239 Like our men are actually really strong, and like our 0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:39.520 men are actually incredibly manly, and like we have really 0:45:39.560 --> 0:45:42.759 really like tight powerful controller of women. And you see 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:44.920 this fucking everywhere, right, This is why all of like 0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:47.759 there's so many sort of like Chinese nationalists who are 0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:51.200 so obsessed with like these videos of like like basically 0:45:51.239 --> 0:45:54.000 indistinguishable from American right wing videos where they're just like 0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:56.879 walking around with no shirts on and being like, look 0:45:56.920 --> 0:45:59.040 at how strong I am. It's like you see you 0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:00.719 see this thing with like hn do for people too, 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:03.200 where's like they do like exactly the same ship, Like 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:04.600 it's all over the fucking place. You can see you 0:46:04.600 --> 0:46:07.279 can see the Taliban doing this now too, and it's 0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:11.480 like it's it's like it's you know, it's it's they 0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:12.080 very cool. 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:14.760 They're seeing colonization as emasculating. 0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:17.960 Yeah, yeah, and and and that's you know, and I 0:46:18.000 --> 0:46:21.520 think there's there's there's this mode of like reactionary anti 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:23.360 colonialism where it's like they see it as emasculating and 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.560 they see the problem with colonization was it stopped them 0:46:25.560 --> 0:46:27.719 from being an empire. You see this a lot which 0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:30.799 Chinese nationalism, where it's like, you know, like they're they're 0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:35.319 they're their effective problem with like the century humiliation was 0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:37.720 that they didn't get to keep being the Ching empire 0:46:37.719 --> 0:46:40.799 and get to keep colonizing other people. And that's like 0:46:40.840 --> 0:46:43.080 a very I don't know, I think that that that's 0:46:43.120 --> 0:46:47.359 a very common sort of like thing that happens when 0:46:47.440 --> 0:46:51.520 it's this is a very common sort of like ideological 0:46:51.520 --> 0:46:54.040 basis for sort of the right wing of anti colonial well, 0:46:54.680 --> 0:46:56.640 I don't know, even calling the anticolonial movement is kind 0:46:56.640 --> 0:47:00.759 of like being a bit generous, but yeah, yeah, I 0:47:00.760 --> 0:47:02.200 think it's a very common form of sort of right 0:47:02.200 --> 0:47:06.360 wing nationalism that emerges as a reaction to colonization. 0:47:07.960 --> 0:47:10.000 What immediately came to mind to me, and what I 0:47:10.080 --> 0:47:13.040 was thinking of was Zionism. 0:47:14.040 --> 0:47:14.719 Yeah, that too. 0:47:16.960 --> 0:47:20.640 Not to be fair, it was rather correct me if 0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:22.759 I'm wrong. It was a movement that existed prior to 0:47:22.840 --> 0:47:27.360 World War Two. No, yeah, yeah, right, And then you know, 0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:32.560 the experiences of World War Two took place, and there 0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:39.480 were different paths for the movement could have taken. And 0:47:39.560 --> 0:47:43.480 I don't want to invalidate the beginnings of the movement, 0:47:43.560 --> 0:47:48.720 considering the experiences of Jewish people for centuries in Europe 0:47:50.080 --> 0:47:53.279 and the oppression and the programs and so they faced. 0:47:53.680 --> 0:47:58.440 But what we've seen the fruit of one particular path 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:06.680 that that movement undertook, and that path has led to 0:48:06.719 --> 0:48:12.400 another nation struggling for its liberation, and that being the Palestinians. 0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:19.200 The common example of distinction used is that of the 0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:25.600 distinction between white nationalism and black nationalism. White nationalism having 0:48:25.640 --> 0:48:32.320 a very clear history of violent supremacy and clualism, while 0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:38.360 black nationalism was established in response to that experience of 0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:46.719 subjugation and clualism and with the desire for self determination. 0:48:48.640 --> 0:48:53.880 The program nationalism specifically among oppressed nations has generally seen 0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:58.600 the oppressed nation as a united bloc national liberation movements, 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:04.920 nationalist movements. Nationalists movements typically ignore class, they ignore gender, 0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:07.880 they ignore religion, and they ignore other divisions for the 0:49:07.880 --> 0:49:11.920 most part, in favor of the development of an independent state, 0:49:12.080 --> 0:49:14.879 which is usually some form of capitalist either a state 0:49:14.920 --> 0:49:18.840 capitalist welfare capitalists, or a neoliberal capitalist. A Nationalism is 0:49:18.840 --> 0:49:21.480 often weaponized and promoted by the ruined class in orders 0:49:21.480 --> 0:49:25.160 to unite the oppressed classes with their domestic oppressors, replacing 0:49:25.200 --> 0:49:29.160 foreign capitalists local capitalists, foreign generals local generals, and foreign 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:32.760 government officials with local officials, in a word, to conceal 0:49:32.840 --> 0:49:35.920 the importance of class struggle. You see often in the 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:41.640 cases of newly independent countries there's almost a brief haze 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:46.799 of rather, let me speak not generally but from my 0:49:46.960 --> 0:49:52.520 own knowledge of my own history. Trying to Bago gain 0:49:52.600 --> 0:49:56.719 independence in nineteen sixty two from the British. This was 0:49:56.760 --> 0:50:03.520 after a very brief period where we experimented with a 0:50:03.520 --> 0:50:08.840 West Indian Federation, West Indies being a designation of the 0:50:08.880 --> 0:50:16.360 Caribbean by the British. The federation failed and so Trinidad 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:19.560 and Tobago struck out on their own, and so trying 0:50:19.640 --> 0:50:23.439 Tobago became an independent country in nineteen sixty two, and 0:50:23.880 --> 0:50:27.880 there was really a sense of you know, joy and 0:50:28.000 --> 0:50:30.640 jubile and celebration because of that freedom. You know, it 0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:33.840 finally broke the shackles to the British. However, it was 0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:38.600 a very recently, a very constitutional independence. You know, it 0:50:38.719 --> 0:50:44.120 wasn't an independence brought forth by violent struggle. You know, 0:50:44.160 --> 0:50:48.799 it wasn't a situation like Algeria. It was more so 0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:57.240 the British carefully groomed a generation of politicians and political 0:50:57.320 --> 0:51:02.799 leaders that would and business leaders that would take on 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:07.120 the role that they were fulfilling in order to continue 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:13.040 that colonial situation in under new management essentially and the 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:16.840 more familiar management. And that very quickly became apparent to 0:51:17.000 --> 0:51:20.319 the population, which is why we had the Black Power 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:24.160 Revolution in nineteen seventy. It was borne on to the 0:51:24.160 --> 0:51:29.839 frustration that new management when everything was pretty much the same. 0:51:31.280 --> 0:51:36.640 Many people who experienced the successes of independence and of 0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:42.319 nationalism that often bears out independence, they actually come to 0:51:42.320 --> 0:51:46.960 recognize that nationalism was not enough nationalism has repeatedly failed 0:51:47.280 --> 0:51:50.680 to solve poverty, to solve oppression and exploitation and suffer it. 0:51:51.760 --> 0:51:55.240 Or many states have become formally independent from their colonial 0:51:55.280 --> 0:52:02.560 masters thanks nationalist movements, new columnalism persevers and yet in 0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:08.279 spite of the continuation of oppression and suffering post independence, 0:52:09.560 --> 0:52:12.799 you end up seeing some people's response to that being 0:52:13.840 --> 0:52:18.960 greater nationalism rather than an exploration of other options. So 0:52:19.120 --> 0:52:22.880 it is this result of nationalism that has led to 0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:26.640 its criticism and opposition by anarchists. Again, there's a difference 0:52:26.640 --> 0:52:30.560 between nationalism and national liberation. But in that criticism of nationalism, 0:52:30.640 --> 0:52:33.760 I see some anarchists, while recognizing that they are class 0:52:33.760 --> 0:52:37.200 divisions in the nation, end up ignoring national divisions in 0:52:37.280 --> 0:52:41.560 a class in favor of some ideal and united working class. 0:52:42.520 --> 0:52:45.120 The truth is that the oppressed classes of some nations 0:52:45.160 --> 0:52:48.160 have benefited from the domination of the oppressed classes and 0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:53.759 other nations, So let's not do class reductionism. Nations that 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:57.560 have had constant war waged against them for centuries tend 0:52:57.560 --> 0:53:01.120 to turn to nationalism for the national liberation. That's obvious. 0:53:02.239 --> 0:53:05.200 I think you know, you cut them some slack for 0:53:05.239 --> 0:53:07.560 not thinking about the global working class when they are 0:53:07.640 --> 0:53:11.840 literally under assault for the national identity. When you fighting 0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:16.040 clonial administrators and foreign armies, you're not studying the class war, 0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:19.960 which is why historically national liberation struggles use in nationalism 0:53:20.320 --> 0:53:24.440 have ignored class divisions among the oppressed nation, but not always. 0:53:26.239 --> 0:53:31.120 Black nationalism, for example, has always been a very diverse 0:53:31.280 --> 0:53:35.319 political movement with several currents and opposing perspectives within it. 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:38.600 The common threat is of course, irresistance the predominance the 0:53:38.640 --> 0:53:41.480 white supremisist system and the assolution of lacks of sovereignity, 0:53:42.160 --> 0:53:45.040 recognizing that we have to free ourselves without wheat and 0:53:45.080 --> 0:53:47.960 for permission, Recognizing we have to protect ourselves from the 0:53:47.960 --> 0:53:53.080 continued assault of the empire of the empire, recognizing that 0:53:53.080 --> 0:53:55.840 we can be proud of and love or bodies or 0:53:55.920 --> 0:54:00.400 minds on our heritage, or rejection of your centrism. And 0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:06.400 yet some manifestations of black nationalism have been reactionary, capitalistic, morphobic, 0:54:06.560 --> 0:54:12.240 and patriarchal. Others have student stock opposition to those currents. 0:54:13.480 --> 0:54:18.759 In particular, revolutionary black nationalism, unlike other forms of black nationalism, 0:54:19.239 --> 0:54:22.640 has consistently stood in opposition to all forms of oppression, 0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:28.640 including imperialism, white supremacy, and capitalism. In my view, and 0:54:28.680 --> 0:54:32.520 as many other black anarchists have noted, revolutionary black nationalism 0:54:32.680 --> 0:54:36.600 has a place in a struggle in conjunction with the 0:54:36.640 --> 0:54:40.600 struggle against patriarchy, capitalism, and the state, as we aim 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:45.520 to prefigure world free of all forms of nomination. In 0:54:45.560 --> 0:54:51.680 spite of our critiques of how nationalism tends to manifest, 0:54:52.080 --> 0:54:54.920 it is not the only way to undertake national liberation. 0:54:59.200 --> 0:55:03.000 We can incorpor rate other fights within that struggle. We 0:55:03.040 --> 0:55:06.919 can recognize the importance of national liberation whilst staying true 0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:14.719 to all principles. Anarchism is an internationalist movement. It aims 0:55:14.760 --> 0:55:19.600 for an entirely new world, not just a pocket of 0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:23.680 change here and there. But we cannot be so focused 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:29.720 on that international struggle that we ignore the very vital 0:55:29.920 --> 0:55:35.960 local and regional struggles taking place. Internationalism and class struggle 0:55:36.040 --> 0:55:41.400 are not in contradiction to national liberation struggle. I believe 0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:46.200 a real internationalism has to stand in solidarity with the 0:55:46.239 --> 0:55:53.480 working class and peasantry everywhere, including those of oppressed nationalities. However, 0:55:53.600 --> 0:55:59.359 at the same time, we cannot uncritically support national liberation struggles. 0:56:00.520 --> 0:56:05.960 We cannot afford to just write a blank check of support. 0:56:06.880 --> 0:56:12.920 It is necessary to engage politically national liberation movements and 0:56:13.760 --> 0:56:20.400 engage in dialogues with all of their complexities and contradictions, 0:56:22.200 --> 0:56:25.600 engaging with and uplifting the progressive elements within those national 0:56:25.600 --> 0:56:31.160 liberation struggles while criticizing the reactionary elements within those struggles. 0:56:33.080 --> 0:56:36.399 I think it's it's incredibly important. I don't know if 0:56:36.440 --> 0:56:40.560 intervene in them is the correct thing, is the best 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:43.279 way to put it, But like you know, from the 0:56:43.280 --> 0:56:45.200 sort of like Eustasian perspective, it's like, yeah, so we 0:56:45.440 --> 0:56:48.879 had we had three successful national liberation movements like next 0:56:48.960 --> 0:56:50.760 to each other, and then after they won their national 0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:53.480 liberation movements, instead of like continuing the war against the 0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:55.359 US or whatever, they went to war with each other. 0:56:55.960 --> 0:57:01.680 So you know, you have to sort of like something something, something. 0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:05.319 Very clearly went wrong with our natlib movements when well, 0:57:05.360 --> 0:57:08.799 I mean obviously, like okay, something went very wrong with 0:57:08.880 --> 0:57:10.160 Kahmara Rouge, but. 0:57:10.320 --> 0:57:13.640 Like you know, that's that's understates and things. 0:57:13.960 --> 0:57:15.799 Yeah, yeah, you know that that's ity, but like you know, 0:57:15.840 --> 0:57:19.760 they're they're like obviously that like that the Khmara Rouge 0:57:19.800 --> 0:57:21.840 was fucked from the start. But you know the fact 0:57:21.880 --> 0:57:28.320 that like the US and Vietnam, like the Vietnamese like 0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:32.840 army finally defeats the American colonizers and then basically immediately 0:57:32.920 --> 0:57:36.680 or invaded by China is a sign that like something 0:57:36.720 --> 0:57:41.000 went terribly terribly wrong in the process of these struggles, 0:57:41.080 --> 0:57:46.520 and that like, I don't know, if you're we're going 0:57:46.600 --> 0:57:49.200 to do this properly, you have to make sure that 0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:53.640 like this ship doesn't happen, because you know, it's it's 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:57.000 a just the product of this is just sort of 0:57:57.120 --> 0:58:01.240 unfathomable human tragedy of a much of colonized people fucking 0:58:01.320 --> 0:58:05.960 murdering each other for like nothing or you know, I 0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:11.000 guess like China's obediate I don't know, geopolitical realignment with 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:14.480 the US and exchange for like industrial capital goods or 0:58:14.480 --> 0:58:19.160 some shit. So you know, you gotta you gotta make 0:58:19.200 --> 0:58:20.280 sure that doesn't happen. 0:58:21.000 --> 0:58:25.760 Yeah, Yeah, And that means intervening. Okay, like you said, 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:28.400 you don't want to say intervene in necessarily, but it 0:58:28.640 --> 0:58:32.720 does require having these discussions rely on, like you don't 0:58:32.720 --> 0:58:37.800 wait until after a preventable tragedy takes place to try 0:58:37.840 --> 0:58:41.880 and prevent a tragedy. You know, if you're seeing signs 0:58:42.480 --> 0:58:50.400 of that, the potential for that, you know, probably do 0:58:50.520 --> 0:58:53.520 something about it. If one is so fragile that a 0:58:53.600 --> 0:58:56.360 criticism of the way that it's structured, or a criticism 0:58:56.400 --> 0:59:01.240 of an aspect of its ideology is enough to prevent 0:59:01.400 --> 0:59:09.240 it from succeeding, or prevent it from collapsing into internal divisions, 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:13.120 whatever the case may be, then I don't think that 0:59:13.240 --> 0:59:22.480 it is robust enough to handle the struggle, uh, for 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:23.640 a liberation. 0:59:24.680 --> 0:59:27.920 Yeah, that's that's like they're definitely you're definitely going to lose. 0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:34.040 Yeah, Like if it's easy for an ally to criticize 0:59:34.200 --> 0:59:36.800 and you know, maybe call something out and that's enough 0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:39.520 for everything to crumble, how easy do you think it's 0:59:39.520 --> 0:59:42.400 gonna be for like your actual enemy is to like 0:59:43.360 --> 0:59:47.720 come in and shake things up and like dismantle the 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.480 organization from the inside. You know, if you if you 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:56.080 don't have room for dissent from you know, your allies, 0:59:56.120 --> 1:00:00.480 from your compatriots, then what about your what do you 1:00:00.480 --> 1:00:02.280 think your enemies are going to try and capitalize on? 1:00:03.200 --> 1:00:06.280 They're going to try and fuel and empower that dissent 1:00:07.000 --> 1:00:10.920 and push it in different directions. So even further splinter 1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:17.320 the movement. You know, it's it's it's complicated, it's it's difficult. 1:00:17.560 --> 1:00:22.600 It's not something that I ever wanted to present myself 1:00:22.720 --> 1:00:26.840 as having all the answers for. But you know, I 1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:33.880 feel like certain things should be clear. You know, maybe 1:00:33.880 --> 1:00:40.280 we should try and preventednessues from getting worse if you see, like, 1:00:40.560 --> 1:00:44.680 for example, a cult of personality develop, and maybe do 1:00:44.840 --> 1:00:47.720 something about it before that culture personality has you know, 1:00:48.200 --> 1:00:50.800 guns on their side and the full power of the 1:00:50.840 --> 1:00:55.520 state apparatus behind them. I mean that's just me though. 1:00:58.280 --> 1:01:03.439 A truly internationalist position, in my view, recognizes that human 1:01:03.520 --> 1:01:08.200 unity can only be achieved through mutual respect, solidarity, alliance, 1:01:08.600 --> 1:01:16.000 and discourse among people. International revolution would require participation in 1:01:16.120 --> 1:01:20.960 national struggle for self determination and human dignity against imputerist domination. 1:01:22.160 --> 1:01:26.040 It will require shift, as I always say, in our powers, 1:01:26.240 --> 1:01:30.080 in our drives, in our consciousness. I think you want 1:01:30.120 --> 1:01:34.320 to have star tooth national liberation struggles. It really starts 1:01:34.360 --> 1:01:37.720 in that realm. And then also I think there are 1:01:37.760 --> 1:01:42.320 ways that we can as allies intervene into aspect of 1:01:42.320 --> 1:01:46.440 that process, you know, in confrontation, lending you know, material 1:01:46.480 --> 1:01:52.760 support to protests or occupations, in non cooperation, supporting strike funds, 1:01:53.480 --> 1:01:57.800 in prefiguration, providing resources. You don't want these acts of 1:01:57.800 --> 1:02:04.919 solidarity to get lost in NGOs or and organizations whatever 1:02:04.960 --> 1:02:08.600 you're trying to get things. Actually, that's a whole tangent. 1:02:08.680 --> 1:02:10.760 Let me just scratch that entirely. I'm going to go off. 1:02:11.560 --> 1:02:16.400 I'll leave off by saying that if we oppose male 1:02:16.440 --> 1:02:22.040 supremacy the patriarchy, we must support women's fight against it. 1:02:23.360 --> 1:02:29.760 That doesn't mean blandly supporting, you know, bourgeois liberal curss feminism. 1:02:30.160 --> 1:02:34.000 It means listening to, learning from and collaboratively developing the 1:02:34.040 --> 1:02:40.160 revolutionary feminist project to liberate all women from patriarchal domination 1:02:40.760 --> 1:02:45.160 and ultimately all people. If workers aside a former union 1:02:45.880 --> 1:02:49.400 in many cases and existing union is pro capitalist and hierarchical, 1:02:50.360 --> 1:02:53.960 I had despite the structural issues with many unions, we 1:02:54.040 --> 1:02:56.840 still stand with the workers against the bosses, even as 1:02:56.880 --> 1:02:59.920 we try to convince them of the need for our transformation. 1:03:00.080 --> 1:03:03.920 Those unions of union militancy for position to bureaucracy in 1:03:04.000 --> 1:03:06.720 order to fully liberate them from class domination. Instead of 1:03:06.760 --> 1:03:11.280 merely engaged in dialogue with the oppressors, we can walk 1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:12.720 on tewg them. At the same time as what I'm 1:03:12.720 --> 1:03:15.520 trying to say, we can act in solidarity without being 1:03:15.560 --> 1:03:19.360 subservient to what we may perceive to be something that 1:03:19.400 --> 1:03:25.680 goes against our values. Solidarity, as I like to view it, 1:03:25.760 --> 1:03:29.000 is a discourse between people's about how we determine our 1:03:29.000 --> 1:03:34.840 own freedom. We may disagree with certain things. We can 1:03:34.880 --> 1:03:38.960 critique certain things we've seen again and again, certain mistakes 1:03:39.000 --> 1:03:41.080 being made over and over again, and movements, and we 1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:45.440 can call them out. But you know, you can have 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:49.040 your principles. You can engage, and you should engage in 1:03:49.080 --> 1:03:53.480 the complexity and contradictions and national liberation struggles, offering critique 1:03:53.640 --> 1:03:58.120 where needs be, resistant reactionary, capitalist, patriarchal and status elements 1:03:58.160 --> 1:04:01.520 when they manifest, and providing support in any way that 1:04:01.560 --> 1:04:05.800 you are able in any way that they request that 1:04:05.880 --> 1:04:11.200 you be. People on some monoliths, think for yourself, will 1:04:11.240 --> 1:04:14.920 power to all the people, usual things. That's it for me. 1:04:15.800 --> 1:04:18.479 You can support me on patuon dot com slash saying 1:04:18.560 --> 1:04:22.680 true and follow me on YouTube at andreism. This has 1:04:22.720 --> 1:04:27.520 been it grappen here with myself and Mia be something. 1:04:43.160 --> 1:04:46.440 It's it could happen here. The thing that's happening is 1:04:46.440 --> 1:04:49.480 that shinzu Wabe is still dead. One year on. That 1:04:49.680 --> 1:04:51.600 man has not gone back from the dead. He is 1:04:51.720 --> 1:04:55.760 still absolutely the most assassinated man of twenty twenty three, 1:04:55.960 --> 1:04:59.760 twenty two. That well, you know, honestly, given how assassinated 1:04:59.800 --> 1:05:01.440 he is, we're giving him the credit for being the 1:05:01.480 --> 1:05:04.520 most asassinated man of twenty twenty three. And what was 1:05:04.560 --> 1:05:06.880 interesting about this assassination and we talked about I talked 1:05:06.880 --> 1:05:10.360 about this really briefly in my sort of intro thing 1:05:10.480 --> 1:05:14.680 to the last episode that we ran about the Abbe assassination. 1:05:15.520 --> 1:05:20.120 But this has been maybe the most successful political assassination 1:05:20.240 --> 1:05:23.160 not done by the CIA in the last like seventy years, 1:05:24.200 --> 1:05:30.160 like absolutely stunningly incredibly successful political assassination because specifically of 1:05:30.200 --> 1:05:34.000 the political impact that the assassination has had on the 1:05:34.120 --> 1:05:37.600 Unification Church probably better known as the Moonies, and how 1:05:37.640 --> 1:05:41.320 it's been forcing the sort of Unification Church aligned ruling 1:05:41.360 --> 1:05:46.320 Liberal Democratic Party of Japan to like have a serious 1:05:46.360 --> 1:05:51.480 of embarrassing scandals where they reveal their incredible intertwinement with 1:05:51.560 --> 1:05:55.040 the church apparatus and all of the culture they've been doing. 1:05:55.480 --> 1:05:57.680 And with me to talk about this is Alisa Majub 1:05:57.720 --> 1:06:00.400 who's an ex Unification Church member who got out and 1:06:00.480 --> 1:06:03.360 who works with Deprogramming Imperialism, which is a group that 1:06:03.400 --> 1:06:06.720 tell us the sort of still untold story of how 1:06:06.760 --> 1:06:11.440 the Unification Church has worked with the CIA and the 1:06:11.480 --> 1:06:14.640 Korean CIA and enormous parts of the sort of the 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:18.520 apparatus of the American imperial war machine to cause untold 1:06:18.560 --> 1:06:21.280 suffering on the world. Lisa, Welcome, Welcome to the show. Welcome, 1:06:21.320 --> 1:06:21.919 welcome back. 1:06:23.000 --> 1:06:25.120 Thank you appreciate it. I'm glad to be back. 1:06:25.240 --> 1:06:27.080 Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you about this because 1:06:27.080 --> 1:06:30.120 we didn't really There's been a lot of very very 1:06:30.120 --> 1:06:37.200 interesting stuff happening in the last couple of months in Japan. 1:06:37.920 --> 1:06:39.480 But in order to do that, I think we need 1:06:39.920 --> 1:06:44.520 to sort of talk about what this assassination was actually about. 1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:49.520 So the shooter, Tetsuya Yamagami, killed Abe because he couldn't 1:06:49.680 --> 1:06:52.160 get to a He was trying to kill a high 1:06:52.240 --> 1:06:55.600 ranking Unification Church guy and he like couldn't get to him. 1:06:56.560 --> 1:06:58.560 And the reason he was trying to do this is 1:06:58.600 --> 1:07:02.960 that his mom had had given they like seventy thousand 1:07:03.120 --> 1:07:06.960 yen to the church. Co'm getting the number right, and 1:07:07.080 --> 1:07:09.640 had basically like you know, like this is I yeah, 1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:11.760 I wanted to talk to you a bit about this 1:07:11.840 --> 1:07:13.600 before we go into more of the au bas stuff 1:07:13.600 --> 1:07:18.320 about how the church's financial abuse works and how you know. 1:07:18.640 --> 1:07:20.520 Like how how how how. 1:07:20.360 --> 1:07:24.280 This person's mom was compelled to sort of like literally 1:07:24.320 --> 1:07:27.160 give away all of their money to this cult. 1:07:28.640 --> 1:07:31.800 Right, Well, I would say it's sort of multi pronged 1:07:31.800 --> 1:07:36.440 approach that they use. They'll basically, oh, gosh, okay. So 1:07:37.360 --> 1:07:39.520 one of the main things that they'll do is they 1:07:39.560 --> 1:07:41.600 will charge people for ancestor liberation. 1:07:41.720 --> 1:07:44.000 Basically is that they'll say that. 1:07:44.800 --> 1:07:47.000 Your ancestors are going to go to heaven if you 1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:50.400 pay us this amount of money. And they'll have people 1:07:50.400 --> 1:07:54.760 do that for like generations and generations back in order 1:07:54.800 --> 1:07:58.280 to have their ancestors go to heaven. 1:07:59.000 --> 1:08:01.920 They do other spiritual sales, like the book. 1:08:02.160 --> 1:08:05.280 There was this one book from years ago that they 1:08:05.320 --> 1:08:09.840 they they charged people exorbitant fees on just because it 1:08:09.880 --> 1:08:13.440 was like some sort of like providential book of some sort. 1:08:14.160 --> 1:08:17.120 So spiritual sales are definitely like a main, a main 1:08:17.160 --> 1:08:18.040 focal point of this. 1:08:18.920 --> 1:08:21.400 Another thing that will happen is that like they'll they'll 1:08:21.840 --> 1:08:24.760 labor traffic people just straight up into like a lot 1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:27.400 of the time they would do fundraising teams where they 1:08:27.400 --> 1:08:30.000 would have people go out sell little trinkets and things 1:08:30.040 --> 1:08:33.360 on the street or flowers, uh, and come back and 1:08:33.400 --> 1:08:35.400 then give all that money to the coffers of the church. 1:08:36.120 --> 1:08:39.880 Another thing that they do is tithes. You're expected to 1:08:40.160 --> 1:08:43.800 give a certain amount of your income basically to the church, 1:08:44.880 --> 1:08:46.760 and if you don't, it's like they're not going to 1:08:46.800 --> 1:08:49.800 be like they're there. It's like certainly, you know, like 1:08:50.120 --> 1:08:52.320 you need to do better because you're not you're not 1:08:52.400 --> 1:08:55.080 doing enough for God kind of shit. So they have 1:08:55.200 --> 1:08:59.679 like a myriad ways that they really push people into 1:09:00.040 --> 1:09:04.360 spending money on them in their organizations, as well as 1:09:04.439 --> 1:09:10.160 having a ton of very successful businesses and capital ventures 1:09:10.160 --> 1:09:14.840 and whatnot. They make guns, you name it, and so 1:09:15.040 --> 1:09:17.519 it all sort of comes together just to this like 1:09:17.760 --> 1:09:20.479 very large wheelhouse of capital. 1:09:22.080 --> 1:09:26.599 Yeah, and Japan's so so I think I should probably 1:09:27.200 --> 1:09:31.160 I'm realizing I'm probably assuming that everyone who's listening to 1:09:31.200 --> 1:09:34.040 this has listened to the previous stuff we've done on 1:09:34.080 --> 1:09:35.760 the Infocation Church, and I don't know, I don't know 1:09:35.920 --> 1:09:38.320 how true that is. So I guess we should talk 1:09:38.360 --> 1:09:39.840 a little bit we should back up a little bit 1:09:39.880 --> 1:09:43.360 and talk about just what the Inifogation church is, and 1:09:43.479 --> 1:09:46.599 I guess also the importance of Japan to it, because Yeah, 1:09:46.720 --> 1:09:50.360 from everything that I've understood, Japan's like, you know, like 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:52.400 they have a bunch of sort of businesses that they 1:09:52.479 --> 1:09:55.639 run in Korea, but Japan's kind of like their chief 1:09:55.640 --> 1:09:58.760 financial nexus. Like the last thing I saw, I think 1:09:58.800 --> 1:10:01.839 it was like like they e'rected like one hundred million dollars. 1:10:02.439 --> 1:10:04.200 How did Japan in the last few years. 1:10:04.960 --> 1:10:06.720 Yeah, they they get, They get so much. 1:10:06.760 --> 1:10:10.759 That's their main it's their main financial powerhouse within the church. 1:10:11.880 --> 1:10:14.559 And part of that is because the church claims that 1:10:14.640 --> 1:10:18.559 because of the occupation of Korea that Japanese members have 1:10:18.640 --> 1:10:23.160 to pay more indemnity monetarily, so everything with like you know, 1:10:23.560 --> 1:10:25.840 all of the spiritual sales and stuff are just like 1:10:25.920 --> 1:10:30.040 exorbitantly higher for those members, and that is just an 1:10:30.040 --> 1:10:33.440 easy way for them to make a lot more money. 1:10:33.600 --> 1:10:35.360 Yeah, which which is always a part of this thing. 1:10:35.400 --> 1:10:39.040 I thought is really interesting because you know, the church, 1:10:39.360 --> 1:10:41.960 and we've talked about this sort of a length in 1:10:42.040 --> 1:10:47.120 other places, but they are like hardcore right wing anti communists, yes, 1:10:47.920 --> 1:10:50.960 and like you know, have backed a lot of I 1:10:51.000 --> 1:10:53.160 mean just desk squads all over the world they backed 1:10:55.160 --> 1:10:58.880 they like they wound up backing poll Pot because like 1:10:59.000 --> 1:11:02.400 doing I Ran contrary twice wasn't enough for them. But 1:11:03.280 --> 1:11:06.120 a bunch yeah, yeah, it's like on once you once, once, 1:11:06.160 --> 1:11:08.919 you once you've once you've done a RAN contract multiple times, 1:11:08.960 --> 1:11:11.000 like you've got to there are very few places you 1:11:11.040 --> 1:11:15.120 can go other than like into polepot. But I think 1:11:15.160 --> 1:11:17.160 I think there's there's an interesting kind of game they're 1:11:17.200 --> 1:11:20.360 playing here because you know, on the one hand, so 1:11:20.520 --> 1:11:24.480 the party they're allied with in Japan, I mean there's 1:11:24.560 --> 1:11:28.360 like several parties they work with, but their biggest backer 1:11:28.400 --> 1:11:31.080 in the government is is the Liberal Democratic Party. And 1:11:31.840 --> 1:11:33.559 you know, if you want to hear me talk about 1:11:33.560 --> 1:11:35.960 the Liberal Democratic Party for a long long time, go 1:11:36.040 --> 1:11:38.880 listen to my Kishi episodes on Behind the Bastards, because 1:11:39.800 --> 1:11:42.680 that guy did one. So No, Masuki Kishi is the 1:11:42.680 --> 1:11:45.960 founder of the Liberal Democratic Party. He is a just 1:11:47.520 --> 1:11:53.840 horrific war criminal. I did like mass enslavement stuff like that, 1:11:54.040 --> 1:11:57.439 Like truly truly awful guy. He's like he's also the 1:11:57.439 --> 1:11:59.240 guy who just was in charge of like running the 1:11:59.320 --> 1:12:05.120 Japanese war machine dream World War two, and his grandson 1:12:05.439 --> 1:12:08.680 is is U shinzo Abe. But there's this, I think 1:12:08.680 --> 1:12:12.120 it's this interesting dynamic where you have, on the one hand, 1:12:12.439 --> 1:12:15.040 the Moonies are allying with these right wing guys who 1:12:15.120 --> 1:12:17.320 are either just straight up like like a lot of 1:12:17.360 --> 1:12:20.360 these people they're allying with are straight up like Nanjing denialists, right, 1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:23.479 they're like you know, they're they're they're people whose lines 1:12:23.560 --> 1:12:26.400 on Japanese colonization or either that it was good or 1:12:26.439 --> 1:12:27.960 we didn't do any crimes. 1:12:28.160 --> 1:12:28.720 Right, Yeah. 1:12:28.800 --> 1:12:31.799 Yeah, So it comes off pretty pretty you know, boldfaced 1:12:31.800 --> 1:12:33.920 and ironic and just very obvious that this is a 1:12:34.000 --> 1:12:34.559 money ploy. 1:12:35.400 --> 1:12:37.439 Yeah yeah. But but I think it's interesting kind of 1:12:37.439 --> 1:12:40.200 politically too, because you know, like if you if you 1:12:40.280 --> 1:12:42.680 on the one hand push denihilism, but then on the 1:12:42.680 --> 1:12:44.960 other hand, you turn around and you're the only people 1:12:45.040 --> 1:12:47.360 going like, hey, look at all these crimes your government did, 1:12:47.400 --> 1:12:50.960 Like don't you owe like Korea so much? I feel 1:12:50.960 --> 1:12:53.720 like that's like it's a really like terrible and like 1:12:54.160 --> 1:12:59.679 it's just unbelievably cynical way of exploiting, like the exploiting 1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:01.840 just the whole ord is of Japanese imperialism to get. 1:13:02.439 --> 1:13:08.120 Yeah, yeah, it's it's very underhanded, especially giving that I 1:13:08.160 --> 1:13:10.840 feel like there is been some evidence that I mean 1:13:10.880 --> 1:13:15.639 at least early church members, uh and those around them 1:13:15.880 --> 1:13:20.719 may have been collaborators at the time as well. So yeah, 1:13:21.520 --> 1:13:25.360 it's very disingenuine and a completely twisted way to go 1:13:25.479 --> 1:13:26.400 about anything. 1:13:26.520 --> 1:13:29.639 But people people buy into it and heavily. 1:13:29.800 --> 1:13:32.280 So yeah, one of the ways they've they've sort of 1:13:32.280 --> 1:13:34.840 done this is allying with with the Liberal Democratic Party. 1:13:35.880 --> 1:13:40.320 So nobody Takishi, who again is Abbi's grandfather, like, is 1:13:40.360 --> 1:13:43.080 the guy who brought the Unification Church into the party. 1:13:43.120 --> 1:13:46.799 And this was kind of a controversial thing because okay 1:13:47.320 --> 1:13:49.040 it was. It was kind of a controversial thing, not 1:13:49.080 --> 1:13:51.000 because the Unification Church is a cult, but because the 1:13:51.040 --> 1:13:55.799 Unification Church is Korean, which is like a dynamic that's 1:13:55.880 --> 1:13:57.880 at play here and this whole thing, which is you 1:13:57.920 --> 1:14:01.600 have this weird okay. So there's like two kinds of 1:14:01.600 --> 1:14:04.400 people who are anti Unification Church in Japan. It's you 1:14:04.520 --> 1:14:07.040 have like the leftists who are anti Unification Church because they're 1:14:07.040 --> 1:14:09.519 a cults and because they're you know, like a sort 1:14:09.520 --> 1:14:12.800 of Cat's Paul of American imperialism and then you have 1:14:12.960 --> 1:14:15.360 like these ultra right wingers who are like, these people 1:14:15.400 --> 1:14:19.320 are Koreans and so we hate them, which is like 1:14:19.360 --> 1:14:25.280 a I don't know, truly terrifying Japan dynamic Buthi. Kish's 1:14:25.320 --> 1:14:28.559 able to sort of overcome this and he okay. So 1:14:28.680 --> 1:14:29.840 this is the part that I don't know if you 1:14:29.840 --> 1:14:33.160 know more about this than I do. So every the 1:14:33.160 --> 1:14:36.960 stuff that I've seen about this talks about the Unification 1:14:37.040 --> 1:14:39.320 Church and the Yakuza kind of hammering out a deal 1:14:39.920 --> 1:14:43.120 to allow the Unification Church to like do the specific 1:14:43.200 --> 1:14:46.880 kinds of scams. And I've always assumed that Kishi broke 1:14:46.920 --> 1:14:49.720 at this because No Basika Kishi also is very very 1:14:50.200 --> 1:14:53.160 well connected with the Yakuza. He's been connected with the 1:14:53.200 --> 1:14:57.759 yakuza since like the twenties and thirties, So I always 1:14:57.800 --> 1:14:59.800 assumed that he brokeer this deal. But I'm not in 1:14:59.840 --> 1:15:01.360 talking sure, I don't know. I don't know if you've 1:15:01.400 --> 1:15:02.479 run into anything about it. 1:15:03.240 --> 1:15:06.200 So I know that some of it has to do 1:15:06.240 --> 1:15:11.639 with Asami Kuboki, I believe, But I wouldn't be surprised 1:15:11.640 --> 1:15:17.080 if initial links do come through Kishi, I wouldn't. I 1:15:17.080 --> 1:15:20.600 would not be surprised about that I don't know where exactly, like, 1:15:20.680 --> 1:15:23.920 you know, initially that would make sense. 1:15:24.080 --> 1:15:25.000 That would make sense. 1:15:24.840 --> 1:15:29.160 Honestly because like going back to the sort of end 1:15:29.200 --> 1:15:33.360 of the Korean War and World War two, basically how 1:15:34.200 --> 1:15:38.000 all these you know, prisoners that were Class A war 1:15:38.040 --> 1:15:42.599 criminals got you know, they got let off the books 1:15:42.640 --> 1:15:44.879 because they decided to work for America now. 1:15:46.640 --> 1:15:48.560 And and and basically. 1:15:49.640 --> 1:15:52.320 These guys were the first guys who started like funding 1:15:52.360 --> 1:15:57.040 and financing and like supporting the church with like the 1:15:57.040 --> 1:16:00.840 help of like MacArthur and stuff. And MacArthur of course 1:16:00.920 --> 1:16:03.280 is the one who got Moon out of prison. 1:16:03.479 --> 1:16:05.120 So yeah, I mean there's a lot of sort of 1:16:05.160 --> 1:16:07.160 there's a lot of very very the the the LDP 1:16:07.680 --> 1:16:12.960 as a party is sort of directly like like directly 1:16:13.000 --> 1:16:15.720 it is formed by the Dullest Brothers interviewing with the 1:16:15.760 --> 1:16:17.760 sort of Japanese right and telling them like, you guys 1:16:17.800 --> 1:16:20.080 all have to like, you guys all have to put 1:16:20.120 --> 1:16:23.400 aside your differences and form this party so as to 1:16:23.439 --> 1:16:26.599 stop like even like a vaguely centered left government from 1:16:26.600 --> 1:16:27.240 coming to power. 1:16:27.840 --> 1:16:28.080 Right. 1:16:28.360 --> 1:16:31.759 Yeah, And the connections here are really deep. Like Kishi. 1:16:32.880 --> 1:16:34.400 Kishi literally sells. 1:16:34.240 --> 1:16:37.200 Unification Church their first building in Japan and that building 1:16:37.360 --> 1:16:41.599 is like his residence, so they are they are even 1:16:41.680 --> 1:16:43.280 deep and in it for the long haul. 1:16:44.080 --> 1:16:48.760 Yeah, and the multi generation yeah yeah, and this has 1:16:48.760 --> 1:16:51.840 been you know, sort of going on for a very 1:16:51.880 --> 1:16:56.479 long time, even after like Kishi's like specific kind of 1:16:56.520 --> 1:16:59.960 like fascist corruption faction kind of eventually falls out of 1:17:00.040 --> 1:17:03.760 favor in like the eighties because they they they kind 1:17:03.760 --> 1:17:05.519 of a series of deals with the Americans that are like 1:17:05.600 --> 1:17:11.280 too corrupt for the US that ends with like ends 1:17:11.280 --> 1:17:16.040 with a fascist porn star I like dry attempting to 1:17:16.080 --> 1:17:17.320 do a Kamakazi run. 1:17:17.200 --> 1:17:19.880 And a Yaka is a boss by flying a plane 1:17:19.920 --> 1:17:22.519 into his house, which is which is a whole thing. 1:17:23.920 --> 1:17:26.200 But you know, so that this kind of gets us 1:17:26.240 --> 1:17:30.439 to many generations of LDP, which is the Liberal Democratic Party, 1:17:30.479 --> 1:17:33.040 which has been the ruling party of Japan for most 1:17:33.040 --> 1:17:36.160 of it's sort of modern history. Many generations did this 1:17:36.240 --> 1:17:38.840 go by, and you know there's there's I think a 1:17:39.000 --> 1:17:42.400 really incredible symbiosis here where like the LDP has like 1:17:42.479 --> 1:17:45.880 consistently gotten them out of trouble of like stuff that 1:17:46.040 --> 1:17:48.200 like like they're they're you know, there's a famous example 1:17:48.200 --> 1:17:50.839 where Moon like shouldn't have been able to enter Japan 1:17:51.080 --> 1:17:53.439 because he would have been convicted of a felony in 1:17:53.479 --> 1:17:57.040 the US. And you know the and there's also like 1:17:57.040 --> 1:18:00.080 there's been a series of investigations into the Church have 1:18:00.160 --> 1:18:02.479 just gotten squashed because the LDPOLE know. 1:18:03.920 --> 1:18:06.439 Yeah, they're too powerful, They're they're in with the guys, 1:18:06.520 --> 1:18:09.960 are running things. 1:18:10.360 --> 1:18:12.040 And I think this just kind of brings us to 1:18:12.240 --> 1:18:16.080 the immediate Abbe stuff, which I think is really interesting, 1:18:16.120 --> 1:18:20.080 which is that like Abbe, okay, so long ago, in 1:18:20.120 --> 1:18:23.280 a galaxy, far far away dream Kishi's generation, the CIA 1:18:23.439 --> 1:18:26.880 was like literally running LDP elections like this is the 1:18:26.880 --> 1:18:29.320 CIA would go in with individual candidates and they would 1:18:29.360 --> 1:18:31.080 go in to sort of play the vote. They would 1:18:31.080 --> 1:18:33.200 go in and they would have like CIA assets doing 1:18:33.200 --> 1:18:36.040 canvassing for them. And what I think is really interesting 1:18:36.120 --> 1:18:38.360 is that like from what I what I've seen, it 1:18:38.360 --> 1:18:42.280 seems like Abbe basically replaced the CIA with the Moonies 1:18:42.360 --> 1:18:45.400 in the two thousands, where he was having the church 1:18:45.520 --> 1:18:48.520 do exactly the same thing the CIA did of like 1:18:48.520 --> 1:18:50.559 like hey, if you're ally with us, we will like 1:18:50.680 --> 1:18:52.920 you know, we will like go district by district and 1:18:52.960 --> 1:18:55.599 campaign for you and like use our influence networks. 1:18:56.280 --> 1:18:57.879 It's funny how that keeps happening. 1:18:58.360 --> 1:19:03.800 Yeah, hmmm, Yeah, it's really the sort of long arc 1:19:03.960 --> 1:19:06.920 of But it's funny too because it's like like quite 1:19:07.000 --> 1:19:11.599 frankly like at this point, like from the CIA's point 1:19:11.600 --> 1:19:14.360 of view, like it's utterly unclear to me. 1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:16.920 If it matters at all whether the LDP or like 1:19:17.000 --> 1:19:20.479 their absolutely identical opposition party like comes into power. But 1:19:20.720 --> 1:19:23.960 there's still just this kind of like like the ghost 1:19:24.040 --> 1:19:26.640 of the CIA from like when they actually had to 1:19:26.640 --> 1:19:30.000 stop the communists in like the cifty sixties and seventies, 1:19:30.120 --> 1:19:32.360 I guess a bit through the eighties. It's just sort 1:19:32.400 --> 1:19:34.680 of still there and still doing like all of the 1:19:34.720 --> 1:19:43.479 same things that Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know who else? 1:19:45.080 --> 1:19:47.360 Actually I don't think they've ever advertised on this show, 1:19:47.439 --> 1:19:50.680 but you know who probably wouldn't be that out of 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:54.559 place given the Reagan coin people. I don't know, it's 1:19:54.600 --> 1:19:57.360 it's ads, it's we're doing them. I hope they don't 1:19:57.400 --> 1:20:01.120 suck and we're back. Okay, So this is something I 1:20:01.320 --> 1:20:05.400 wanted to ask you. How So, in the last few months, 1:20:05.439 --> 1:20:10.080 there's been a lot of developments in terms of the 1:20:10.160 --> 1:20:12.880 reaction to the Church in Japan and how the Church 1:20:12.880 --> 1:20:14.799 has been reacting to the sort of swings in public 1:20:14.840 --> 1:20:17.000 sentiment that have been happening. So yeah, I guess I 1:20:17.080 --> 1:20:20.880 want to tesk you. So, how what's been happening inside 1:20:20.920 --> 1:20:24.240 the Japanese government since all of the stufface sort of 1:20:24.240 --> 1:20:24.880 been coming out? 1:20:27.000 --> 1:20:31.760 So uh, it seems to be that there has been 1:20:32.000 --> 1:20:36.719 quite a kerfuffle because quite a few members of both 1:20:36.720 --> 1:20:40.160 the LDP and other parties have ties to the Unification Church. 1:20:41.600 --> 1:20:44.880 So I've got some stats here, and forgive me if 1:20:44.880 --> 1:20:46.880 these are not the most current. I tried my best 1:20:46.880 --> 1:20:50.400 to find the most current, the most current numbers out 1:20:50.439 --> 1:20:52.760 here about this, but I was having a little bit 1:20:52.800 --> 1:20:58.120 of trouble due to translations. So let's see, I've got 1:20:58.680 --> 1:21:04.320 at least three hundred thirty four prefectural Assembly members in 1:21:04.400 --> 1:21:07.280 Japan have had dealings with the Unification Church or its affiliates, 1:21:07.280 --> 1:21:10.080 with over eighty percent of them belonging to the ruling LDP, 1:21:11.360 --> 1:21:15.799 according to Kyoto News, So Prime Minister of Fumiyo Kushita 1:21:16.200 --> 1:21:18.080 said that the government was in the final stage of 1:21:18.120 --> 1:21:20.360 considering whether to seek a court order to dispand the 1:21:20.439 --> 1:21:26.120 Unification Church. But also, you know his new cabinet, Well, 1:21:26.240 --> 1:21:30.080 they've got some ties. Okay, at least four lawmakers who 1:21:30.160 --> 1:21:32.840 admitted having ties to the church. The number of LVP 1:21:33.000 --> 1:21:37.680 lawmakers was ties to the churches around one hundred and eighty. 1:21:36.760 --> 1:21:40.200 And the second Tenary General has. 1:21:40.040 --> 1:21:42.639 Said that one hundred and seventy nine of the three 1:21:42.760 --> 1:21:47.600 hundred and seventy nine parliamentarians reported with links to the 1:21:47.640 --> 1:21:51.479 church and related organizations. And these relationships have ranged from 1:21:51.520 --> 1:21:55.000 attending church events to accepting donations and receiving elections support. 1:21:55.720 --> 1:21:56.839 And then at least. 1:21:56.680 --> 1:21:59.640 Three hundred and thirty four prefectural councils had contact with 1:21:59.640 --> 1:22:03.240 the US seeing related words. So there's a lot going 1:22:03.280 --> 1:22:07.360 on that basically is, there's a lot has come out 1:22:07.439 --> 1:22:11.280 about who is involved. However, the u SEE is still 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:14.720 pretty much just denying everything. The pre trial proceedings for 1:22:14.800 --> 1:22:18.280 Yamagami began on October thirteenth. It's going to be closed door, 1:22:19.000 --> 1:22:22.000 so it'll probably be a while a little bit until 1:22:22.040 --> 1:22:24.439 the information trickles out about that. Hopefully they'll have some 1:22:24.640 --> 1:22:27.479 like I don't know if like what closed door means 1:22:27.479 --> 1:22:30.400 in that specific situation, I still have journalists in there, 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:34.479 not hopefully, but yeah, a lot has been coming out 1:22:34.560 --> 1:22:38.320 and people have been calling for a lot of change, 1:22:39.000 --> 1:22:41.880 it seems, but how much is. 1:22:41.920 --> 1:22:44.040 Actually going to happen, especially. 1:22:43.560 --> 1:22:46.519 When they're saying now it's going to be like maybe 1:22:46.520 --> 1:22:50.400 one to three years for the deliberation on the case 1:22:51.640 --> 1:22:54.800 for dissolving the church, which means that the church will 1:22:54.800 --> 1:22:56.840 have ample time to move all of its funds and 1:22:57.200 --> 1:23:00.439 set up new new lines of money funneling. 1:23:00.479 --> 1:23:04.160 Basically, yeah, which I think, Yeah, I don't know, like 1:23:04.200 --> 1:23:08.400 I I have, I have very little faith that even 1:23:08.479 --> 1:23:12.040 even this sort of like outswing of public pressure is 1:23:12.040 --> 1:23:15.200 going to like actually seriously cause a liberal Democratic party 1:23:15.360 --> 1:23:18.920 to like really go after the church because, like I mean, 1:23:18.920 --> 1:23:21.320 like Abe, like part of the reason Abe got assassinated 1:23:21.439 --> 1:23:24.880 was that, like I think, like in twenty twenty two, 1:23:25.320 --> 1:23:27.240 he he get he like he was like he like 1:23:27.320 --> 1:23:30.760 said a video of of like of a speech like 1:23:30.920 --> 1:23:34.000 to a like to a man Elaine Unification Church, Evette. 1:23:34.000 --> 1:23:36.200 I think it was the same one that it might 1:23:36.200 --> 1:23:37.680 have been the same one that Trump said it too. 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:40.040 Maybe it was it was a different event, but like yeah, 1:23:40.080 --> 1:23:42.320 like that, I don't know. I have a difficult time, 1:23:44.240 --> 1:23:46.960 I don't know, kind of like believing that they're the 1:23:47.400 --> 1:23:50.280 like this, like even if this crackdown does come that's 1:23:50.280 --> 1:23:52.920 going to be effective. I don't know what your thoughts 1:23:52.960 --> 1:23:53.280 on that. 1:23:54.040 --> 1:23:59.200 I'm excited that there is some movement in that direction. However, 1:23:59.320 --> 1:24:04.200 I do worry that it won't really make as much 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:07.000 of a dent into the functioning of the movement as 1:24:07.000 --> 1:24:10.120 some people think it could, given that there seems to 1:24:10.120 --> 1:24:12.880 be a lot of time for them to recuperate funds, 1:24:13.080 --> 1:24:15.639 and they've been doing a lot of things it seems 1:24:15.640 --> 1:24:20.200 to make up for funds, as well as the fact 1:24:20.320 --> 1:24:22.720 that they already just have so much money and so 1:24:22.760 --> 1:24:25.560 many funds in the first place. It's hard to say 1:24:25.880 --> 1:24:28.080 how much they even have and how much this would 1:24:28.080 --> 1:24:29.799 make a dent into it were. 1:24:29.600 --> 1:24:32.240 It to happen, So it's hard to say. 1:24:32.400 --> 1:24:35.160 And I also do worry that that'll just sort of 1:24:35.640 --> 1:24:42.160 incentivize them to sort of further radicalize people in a 1:24:42.280 --> 1:24:46.120 very dangerous far right direction and sort of going into that. 1:24:46.160 --> 1:24:48.439 There have been some sort of recent developments within the 1:24:48.520 --> 1:24:52.200 church since all of this has come out, basically, and 1:24:52.280 --> 1:24:56.200 people are calling for some sort of justice and some 1:24:56.240 --> 1:25:00.880 sort of understanding of what's going on, which you know, 1:25:00.920 --> 1:25:05.720 the church continues to deny, but recently Hawk Jahan who 1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:08.840 is now the leader of the Mainline Church, has been 1:25:09.040 --> 1:25:12.240 meeting with the youth in multiple countries UH and recently 1:25:12.280 --> 1:25:15.679 at Japan, she sat down and told them that they 1:25:15.760 --> 1:25:19.479 are a Kamakazi group basically to save Japan in the world. 1:25:20.080 --> 1:25:23.360 So I can't imagine it's ever really, it like, it 1:25:23.400 --> 1:25:26.920 never has ended well when somebody says that to an 1:25:26.920 --> 1:25:29.679 occult leader says that to their constituents, it never goes well. 1:25:30.520 --> 1:25:35.960 And you know, acts of violence against oneself like self 1:25:36.000 --> 1:25:40.800 emolation or other things murder have not been you know, 1:25:40.880 --> 1:25:44.680 out of the realm of things that people in the 1:25:44.760 --> 1:25:47.280 Unification of Church have done in the past. So it 1:25:47.280 --> 1:25:51.800 does kind of worry me. And she's actually hot. Jahan 1:25:51.920 --> 1:25:55.920 is actually going to be meeting I believe it's the 1:25:55.960 --> 1:26:00.200 weekend of the seventh UH in Vegas with the Youth 1:26:00.240 --> 1:26:02.040 of America. So I wonder if she's going to be 1:26:02.080 --> 1:26:03.599 saying similar things at that event. 1:26:04.880 --> 1:26:08.360 Yeah, I mean, that wouldn't surprise me, it would. 1:26:08.200 --> 1:26:10.679 Seem I have a feeling it seems to be since 1:26:10.720 --> 1:26:12.880 she's been going around and meeting, because she's also met 1:26:12.920 --> 1:26:15.800 with the youth of Europe in the Middle East, that 1:26:15.800 --> 1:26:18.040 there's like a concerted effort here to sort of get 1:26:18.560 --> 1:26:22.960 youth engagement up, which leads me into a couple of 1:26:22.960 --> 1:26:28.000 other things here. I know that for a couple of 1:26:28.120 --> 1:26:30.960 years now, the Global Peace Foundation, which is under Preston Moon, 1:26:31.360 --> 1:26:35.600 has been involved with like different like music festivals and 1:26:35.640 --> 1:26:39.200 things with K pop artists and stuff. But recently there 1:26:39.280 --> 1:26:43.040 was actually an event this year is supposed to happen 1:26:43.600 --> 1:26:46.799 called twenty twenty three Korean Dream Festa for Korean United, 1:26:47.600 --> 1:26:50.040 and then the original poster it was said that it 1:26:50.080 --> 1:26:53.559 was Global Peace Foundation that was one of the groups 1:26:53.640 --> 1:26:56.840 that was leading this. A lot of fans have soaken up, 1:26:57.000 --> 1:26:58.880 and I know at least one of the groups has 1:26:58.920 --> 1:27:03.360 pulled out, so clearly at least within that within that 1:27:03.439 --> 1:27:06.280 prong of the U see that there's there's there's some 1:27:06.400 --> 1:27:09.880 very active like trying to outreach to the youth, which 1:27:09.920 --> 1:27:12.080 I think I think I would be able to say 1:27:12.200 --> 1:27:14.680 is pretty across the board at this point. I think 1:27:14.720 --> 1:27:16.920 they're all trying some new strategies because they see that 1:27:16.960 --> 1:27:19.880 people are leaving, and especially with the number of people 1:27:19.920 --> 1:27:21.960 that have been speaking up lately, they really want to 1:27:22.000 --> 1:27:22.920 keep those numbers. 1:27:22.720 --> 1:27:26.639 And engage new people as well. Part of this also. 1:27:26.439 --> 1:27:28.600 Makes me think that might be why Sean Moon is 1:27:28.640 --> 1:27:30.479 doing the sort of like Maga rapper thing. 1:27:31.200 --> 1:27:34.560 I don't know, yeah, you know, because he could he 1:27:34.600 --> 1:27:41.120 could just be like it's possible, but yeah. 1:27:40.320 --> 1:27:42.679 But it does strike me as something that's like, hmm, 1:27:42.760 --> 1:27:44.679 maybe this is a way to get kids into the movement, 1:27:44.720 --> 1:27:47.640 you know, Like I don't really know. Part of me 1:27:47.760 --> 1:27:50.120 is also wondered why if if that is part of 1:27:50.160 --> 1:27:53.000 why Caleb Moppin has showed up at Mooney things now. 1:27:54.320 --> 1:28:03.040 Like yeah, just yeah, uh that guy, that guy, But like, yeah, 1:28:03.360 --> 1:28:07.479 it just makes me wonder about like different onboarding ramps 1:28:07.479 --> 1:28:11.479 that might be being tapped because there's potentially, you know, 1:28:11.760 --> 1:28:14.439 like a little bit of a lull here and there's. 1:28:14.240 --> 1:28:17.200 Going to be a financial dip in this specific chain. 1:28:18.080 --> 1:28:21.960 I don't really know. I can't claim to I have suspicions. 1:28:22.600 --> 1:28:24.320 Yeah, I mean I think it makes I think as 1:28:24.320 --> 1:28:25.840 a theory, it makes sense, like you, I mean, the 1:28:25.960 --> 1:28:30.200 ufcation churches, the Unification Church has always tried to sort 1:28:30.240 --> 1:28:34.320 of stick itself into like different cultural trends, and I think, right, 1:28:34.400 --> 1:28:37.080 I like for what I voted stood like, I don't 1:28:37.120 --> 1:28:38.880 I don't think the last time they really tried the 1:28:38.960 --> 1:28:41.479 U strategy worked very well, like in the late twenty 1:28:41.640 --> 1:28:42.519 early twenty tens. 1:28:42.960 --> 1:28:45.439 Right, Yeah, no, it didn't. It didn't work particularly well. 1:28:46.120 --> 1:28:50.040 I wonder, however, you know, times are changing. If they 1:28:50.080 --> 1:28:52.160 happen to get one or two good strategists on board, 1:28:52.160 --> 1:28:55.680 that could change everything, honestly, But I also don't necessarily 1:28:55.680 --> 1:28:57.040 know that this is going to go well for them, 1:28:57.080 --> 1:29:03.720 seeing is that they're deeply uncool. It's a real big issue, 1:29:04.080 --> 1:29:07.800 like that's the main issue for like trying to get 1:29:07.800 --> 1:29:12.719 youth engagement up. I feel like, you know, I don't know, Uh, 1:29:12.760 --> 1:29:15.880 there's only so cool you can make it sound, which 1:29:15.920 --> 1:29:17.000 is nothing like no. 1:29:17.360 --> 1:29:20.280 Yeah, And I mean it is interesting that they're kind 1:29:20.320 --> 1:29:23.479 of like the mop in things specifically is really interesting 1:29:23.520 --> 1:29:26.519 because it's it's it seems like, I don't know, it 1:29:26.520 --> 1:29:29.000 seems like they're trying to tap into this like just 1:29:29.080 --> 1:29:33.920 like whatever weird currents of like new right like stuff 1:29:33.920 --> 1:29:35.000 they can get their hands on. 1:29:35.400 --> 1:29:38.320 Yeah, it seems like that honestly to me too. And 1:29:38.360 --> 1:29:42.000 it's also specifically ironic considering that Caleb used to hit 1:29:42.040 --> 1:29:44.439 me up for information on the Moonies a lot before I. 1:29:44.400 --> 1:29:45.920 Figured that was right. He was a creep. 1:29:46.280 --> 1:29:49.439 Yeah, yeah, and uh before I figured out he was 1:29:49.439 --> 1:29:51.000 a creep and like not somebody I wanted to be 1:29:51.000 --> 1:29:51.400 talking to. 1:29:51.520 --> 1:29:53.479 So he knows all this shit about them and. 1:29:53.560 --> 1:29:58.559 Continues and like willfully yeah, is engaging with them, which 1:29:58.680 --> 1:30:00.840 to me is just like mm hmmm. 1:30:01.800 --> 1:30:03.320 Yeah. It's like if you if you're if you're gonna 1:30:03.320 --> 1:30:05.120 sell out, like at least at least sell out into 1:30:05.160 --> 1:30:07.559 a podcast, don't sell out to a fucking cult like 1:30:07.720 --> 1:30:08.479 Jesus Christ. 1:30:09.360 --> 1:30:13.000 Come on, it's just ridiculous stuff. 1:30:13.040 --> 1:30:13.479 I don't know. 1:30:13.760 --> 1:30:15.639 Yeah, it's really terrible. 1:30:15.680 --> 1:30:19.280 I don't know, like, yeah, it's the mashup we didn't need. 1:30:19.760 --> 1:30:22.000 And this I think this has been eased to something 1:30:22.000 --> 1:30:24.040 else I wanted to ask about. So other than the 1:30:24.120 --> 1:30:27.960 sort of like youth strategy stuff, has there been a 1:30:28.080 --> 1:30:31.519 reaction from like the Rod of Iron ministry or like 1:30:31.560 --> 1:30:35.000 the other sort of like uh, splinter fractions of the 1:30:35.080 --> 1:30:36.960 church to the to the stuff that's been happening in 1:30:37.040 --> 1:30:40.880 Japan like have and also ask the everything like as best, 1:30:40.920 --> 1:30:44.760 like everything that I've seen seems suggest that the if 1:30:44.760 --> 1:30:47.160 they were gonna like if they were gonna disband the church, 1:30:47.240 --> 1:30:50.280 it would only be the main branch. Has there been like, 1:30:50.400 --> 1:30:53.280 has the statement going after the other branches too, or. 1:30:54.040 --> 1:30:57.200 So in that respect, I am actually still kind of 1:30:57.280 --> 1:31:00.439 unclear and have some research questions I need to on 1:31:00.680 --> 1:31:04.000 that matter. As far as I've been aware, the other 1:31:04.040 --> 1:31:07.599 branches have been reasonably quiet about it. It doesn't mean 1:31:07.600 --> 1:31:10.760 that they're not internally doing things. I know that they 1:31:10.800 --> 1:31:14.520 both have large populations in Japan as well of membership, 1:31:15.080 --> 1:31:17.719 so it would make sense that they would be trying 1:31:17.760 --> 1:31:18.760 to figure something out. 1:31:18.800 --> 1:31:20.559 However, I don't actually know if. 1:31:20.600 --> 1:31:25.000 Legally they are going to be gone after the same 1:31:25.040 --> 1:31:28.840 way as the mainline church, and that's something I just 1:31:28.880 --> 1:31:32.360 need to clear up myself. But honestly, they haven't been 1:31:32.439 --> 1:31:35.559 speaking as much about it as I thought they might. 1:31:36.160 --> 1:31:38.120 That doesn't mean that they're not. It also just might 1:31:38.160 --> 1:31:39.400 mean that they're not publishing it, you know. 1:31:40.720 --> 1:31:42.960 But part of me also wants to know if the 1:31:43.040 --> 1:31:45.760 reason that you know, hak Jahan is coming to America 1:31:46.040 --> 1:31:48.360 that certain weekend is because that's exact same weekend that 1:31:48.400 --> 1:31:51.080 the Rod of Iron Freedom Festival is happening, and she 1:31:51.200 --> 1:31:53.880 just doesn't want to get beheaded by her sons who 1:31:53.920 --> 1:31:57.639 want to behead her. So yeah, because it's like, ah, 1:31:57.640 --> 1:31:59.680 she knows they're they're doing that weekend. I mean, I 1:31:59.680 --> 1:32:03.320 don't know, like that's it's just maybe silly speculation. But 1:32:03.360 --> 1:32:04.880 at the same time, they have literally said that they 1:32:04.920 --> 1:32:05.559 want to behead her. 1:32:05.640 --> 1:32:08.519 So yeah, I wouldn't be. 1:32:09.760 --> 1:32:10.920 From them if I were her. 1:32:11.479 --> 1:32:14.679 Yeah that that that that that entire fight is really 1:32:14.760 --> 1:32:19.519 a like like no matter it's either a like the 1:32:19.880 --> 1:32:22.559 eat pop or let them fight or the no matter 1:32:22.600 --> 1:32:24.880 who wins, we lose kind of thing. 1:32:25.720 --> 1:32:29.360 Right, It's just quite a mess. 1:32:29.400 --> 1:32:32.160 Like I can say that I have a lot of 1:32:32.160 --> 1:32:34.160 family drama, but nothing compared to this. 1:32:34.880 --> 1:32:40.240 Yeah, just wild. Yeah. 1:32:40.280 --> 1:32:43.559 So there was a show that was originally going to 1:32:43.560 --> 1:32:45.720 be called The Devil's Whispers that was to be aired 1:32:45.760 --> 1:32:49.160 in Japan, but of course the UC complained a little bit, 1:32:49.280 --> 1:32:52.080 and they said that the program included a dramatization. 1:32:52.320 --> 1:32:53.920 They said that basically, they. 1:32:54.040 --> 1:32:59.200 They claimed that this dramatized program which was showing past 1:32:59.200 --> 1:33:02.439 tense of the group to recruit believers, including uh hiding 1:33:02.439 --> 1:33:05.320 the group's name in door to door sales taxics designs 1:33:05.520 --> 1:33:10.439 disguised as charitable. First of all, in HK, the channel 1:33:10.439 --> 1:33:13.000 that was going to air it, first of all, change 1:33:13.000 --> 1:33:15.640 the name to Dangerous Whispers, instead of the Devil's Whispers, 1:33:16.000 --> 1:33:18.720 But the church also tried to tried to make them 1:33:18.760 --> 1:33:23.280 cancel like the show from happening and airing. As far 1:33:23.280 --> 1:33:25.000 as I'm aware, I think it actually did air a 1:33:25.080 --> 1:33:26.440 couple of nights ago though. 1:33:27.680 --> 1:33:29.720 Glad gle g glad they got it through. But like 1:33:29.760 --> 1:33:33.160 the fact, yeah the name changed, like really. 1:33:33.640 --> 1:33:39.120 Yeah, I'm like, still, it's pretty ridiculous, Like maybe they 1:33:39.200 --> 1:33:40.960 changed it, but I think what they had said it 1:33:41.000 --> 1:33:43.360 was like sometimes in post production will change the name 1:33:43.400 --> 1:33:45.600 for whatever reason or something like that. But it's like, 1:33:46.160 --> 1:33:49.040 are you sure it's not because the church complained. 1:33:48.720 --> 1:33:54.800 Like yeah, yeah, so I don't really know. Well I guess, 1:33:54.800 --> 1:33:56.280 I guess. I guess no. One more thing I wanted 1:33:56.280 --> 1:33:58.200 to talk a bit about, which is that, And this 1:33:58.320 --> 1:34:01.880 is something we've been seeing already, is people talking about like, oh, 1:34:01.920 --> 1:34:05.360 you shouldn't spand the church on religious freedom grounds. And 1:34:05.400 --> 1:34:08.080 that's something that the U see has been really really 1:34:08.120 --> 1:34:10.800 successful at sort of hiding behind you when anyone tries 1:34:10.840 --> 1:34:13.160 to go after them, like they did this in the 1:34:13.200 --> 1:34:16.560 seventies and eighties, when there were campaigns to like prosecute 1:34:16.600 --> 1:34:18.400 them for just the crimes they were doing. Was that 1:34:18.479 --> 1:34:21.120 a bunch of sort of like like not just not 1:34:21.160 --> 1:34:23.280 just right wing groups, but sort of like like like 1:34:23.320 --> 1:34:26.479 civil libertarian groups, like like we're like, oh, you can't 1:34:26.520 --> 1:34:28.320 do this because if you if if they go after 1:34:28.320 --> 1:34:29.840 the UFI Gacia Church, they're going to be able to 1:34:29.880 --> 1:34:31.640 go after like any religious groups. And that's just like 1:34:31.720 --> 1:34:35.559 not true, Like it's just not true. These people are 1:34:35.560 --> 1:34:38.360 not like whatever you're you know, in terms of sort 1:34:38.400 --> 1:34:40.400 of whatever, like the crimes of like a normal religious 1:34:40.439 --> 1:34:45.719 group group are like the church is not a normal 1:34:46.160 --> 1:34:51.040 religious group. They have been funding desk squads for like 1:34:51.920 --> 1:34:53.760 longer than most of the people listening to the show 1:34:53.800 --> 1:34:58.040 have been alive. And yeah, I don't know. I just 1:34:58.040 --> 1:35:01.840 want to sort of like like just make people aware 1:35:01.840 --> 1:35:03.760 of it. They're going to try this shit again. And 1:35:04.760 --> 1:35:06.800 it was it was bullshit less and he did it. 1:35:06.800 --> 1:35:13.360 It's bullshit now, yeah, one hundred percent. And that's that's 1:35:13.360 --> 1:35:15.840 the thing that keeps annoying me. Well, it's not nothing. 1:35:16.000 --> 1:35:17.640 There are many things about this that annoy me and 1:35:17.640 --> 1:35:20.320 make me very enraged, But one of them is that 1:35:20.360 --> 1:35:25.920 the playbook doesn't change. Yeah, no, it's very very straightforward. 1:35:25.960 --> 1:35:28.519 This is how it's going to work. I'm kind of 1:35:28.520 --> 1:35:30.640 wondering also if the cult is going to sort of 1:35:30.640 --> 1:35:34.080 like roll out new providential edicts that will like potentially 1:35:34.720 --> 1:35:36.400 be like, oh no, this is going to be our 1:35:36.439 --> 1:35:38.200 new country that we get the most money out of, 1:35:38.320 --> 1:35:42.000 or this maybe or something like, you know, just something 1:35:42.000 --> 1:35:44.240 that they're going to say that God has made it 1:35:44.280 --> 1:35:48.320 this way so that like, yeah, you can change those. 1:35:48.280 --> 1:35:50.480 Money money funneling tunnels. 1:35:50.760 --> 1:35:54.120 Yeah, I don't know. The only prediction that I can 1:35:54.160 --> 1:35:56.160 make and I'm absolutely sure of is that it's going 1:35:56.200 --> 1:35:57.800 to be wild and it's going to suck. 1:35:58.479 --> 1:35:59.000 Yeah. 1:35:59.400 --> 1:36:01.479 Yeah, I'm looking forward to how this is going to 1:36:01.520 --> 1:36:04.520 play out, honestly, especially given all of the like Kamakazi 1:36:04.640 --> 1:36:09.680 squad comments and stuff, makes me ill, It makes it 1:36:09.720 --> 1:36:13.200 makes me scared, It makes me not feel confident about 1:36:13.200 --> 1:36:14.639 the way that this is going to turn out. 1:36:15.200 --> 1:36:17.960 Yeah, I'm kind of of two minds of this because 1:36:18.000 --> 1:36:20.240 like I'm hoping this will go well and this will 1:36:20.240 --> 1:36:24.000 actually work and that like even if the church tries 1:36:24.040 --> 1:36:27.280 to lash out, it's like doesn't work very well. I 1:36:27.840 --> 1:36:32.640 do think also the way that this assassination has like 1:36:32.840 --> 1:36:36.559 been turning just random like regular people in Japan who 1:36:36.560 --> 1:36:38.639 don't really know anything about the Church against them has 1:36:38.640 --> 1:36:41.120 been really really interesting and powerful in a way that 1:36:42.479 --> 1:36:45.960 was I mean not the I don't know, so there's 1:36:46.880 --> 1:36:48.240 I've been saying is like the top of the show 1:36:48.320 --> 1:36:50.280 kind of as a joke, but like, this really has 1:36:50.600 --> 1:36:56.760 been a very successful like political assassination in that it 1:36:56.920 --> 1:37:00.640 hasn't like, it hasn't back it hasn't yet backfired in 1:37:00.680 --> 1:37:02.320 a way that helps the church, and it seems to 1:37:02.360 --> 1:37:06.240 have really don't know, it seems it seemed to have 1:37:06.840 --> 1:37:11.240 very powerfully achieved this objective of getting people to go, wait, 1:37:11.280 --> 1:37:15.680 hold on, who is this cult that is like not 1:37:16.080 --> 1:37:18.280 I don't know, running is maybe too strong of a word, 1:37:18.400 --> 1:37:22.439 but has like completely embedded itself in the in Japan's 1:37:22.479 --> 1:37:23.480 ruling class. 1:37:23.840 --> 1:37:27.920 Right, yeah, yeah, people are asking questions. 1:37:27.520 --> 1:37:30.200 Now, yeah, which which I think is good. And I 1:37:30.240 --> 1:37:32.600 don't know, I hope the other thing I'm hoping is 1:37:32.640 --> 1:37:37.720 that this like people start doing this in like the 1:37:37.840 --> 1:37:41.000 US and in Korea and in like all of the 1:37:41.040 --> 1:37:43.479 other places that they've been doing shit like this, because 1:37:43.520 --> 1:37:44.080 this isn't just. 1:37:45.520 --> 1:37:48.519 Yeah, because that's been global and there have been so 1:37:48.560 --> 1:37:50.600 many people that have been victims of this group that 1:37:51.400 --> 1:37:53.880 I know a lot of us in America have also 1:37:53.920 --> 1:37:58.320 started speaking out about it, and the media here has 1:37:58.360 --> 1:38:03.760 not been quite as interested in picking up, uh, what 1:38:03.800 --> 1:38:05.840 we have to say. To a degree, they have been, 1:38:05.920 --> 1:38:08.960 but it's usually you know, sensationalized. 1:38:08.040 --> 1:38:14.080 And made a little weird and just yeah, yeah the point, 1:38:14.840 --> 1:38:16.720 oh sorry, yeah, go on, yeah, like there's. 1:38:16.400 --> 1:38:18.479 A there's a really this is something like I've read 1:38:18.520 --> 1:38:20.719 a lot of sort of American coverage of this alongside 1:38:20.760 --> 1:38:22.800 the Japanese coverage, and I mean, like I expect this 1:38:22.840 --> 1:38:25.720 of the Japanese. Wow, Okay, I guess I expect this 1:38:25.800 --> 1:38:30.280 of both, like parts of the coverage, but there is 1:38:30.720 --> 1:38:35.839 there has been very very little, if any willingness to 1:38:36.080 --> 1:38:38.559 like talk about the church's connection to the CIA, and 1:38:39.280 --> 1:38:41.280 they're you know, people will talk about them like as 1:38:41.280 --> 1:38:44.200 an anti communist group, but right like yeah, like the 1:38:44.479 --> 1:38:47.400 don't take that extra step, yeah yeah, like you have 1:38:47.600 --> 1:38:49.000 like it's they're not just in it. Like there there 1:38:49.120 --> 1:38:51.160 there are lots of anti communist groups. I mean, there 1:38:51.200 --> 1:38:53.519 are no anti communist groups that are good, right, but 1:38:53.640 --> 1:38:56.519 like there are lots of anti communist groups that never 1:38:56.920 --> 1:38:59.960 funded death squads in like not what was what was 1:39:00.080 --> 1:39:04.439 the actual number like sixteen I had I had I 1:39:04.479 --> 1:39:06.040 had a count at one point of the number of 1:39:06.040 --> 1:39:08.559 countries they funded desk squads in. But like like most 1:39:08.600 --> 1:39:12.800 most most most people haven't like like funded coups in 1:39:12.880 --> 1:39:17.200 Bolivia and like you know, kept like allowed to ran 1:39:17.320 --> 1:39:19.719 Contra to happen by keeping the Contras in the war, 1:39:20.080 --> 1:39:23.760 or like sent weapons of the mousia Hadeen like yo, 1:39:23.960 --> 1:39:27.080 like they they really they they really they've I don't know, 1:39:27.120 --> 1:39:30.840 like I I mean, I like I guess, like you know, 1:39:30.960 --> 1:39:32.400 in terms of the sort of like this is the 1:39:32.400 --> 1:39:35.120 bourgeois press stuff it like it like it makes sense 1:39:35.360 --> 1:39:38.160 ideologically why people don't want to talk about their connections 1:39:38.200 --> 1:39:41.600 to the CIA and like the operations they pulled in 1:39:41.680 --> 1:39:45.080 the US and all of the just imperials that they've 1:39:45.080 --> 1:39:49.560 been doing. But it's it's really depressing because yeah, yeah, 1:39:49.640 --> 1:39:50.240 I don't know. 1:39:52.439 --> 1:39:55.080 It feels demoralizing sometimes because people only want to tell 1:39:55.120 --> 1:39:57.960 part of the story when it's like not too crazy 1:39:58.000 --> 1:40:00.240 and out there sounding for them. It's like, no, I 1:40:00.840 --> 1:40:03.519 tell you what, the actual story behind this group is 1:40:03.520 --> 1:40:05.560 crazier and more out there than you could ever imagine. 1:40:05.680 --> 1:40:09.080 Like yeah, yeah, and I think I think that's that's 1:40:09.120 --> 1:40:11.200 been an important I mean that's I think why the 1:40:11.240 --> 1:40:13.880 work you're doing is really important because thank you, like 1:40:13.960 --> 1:40:16.880 you have to actually make like you're you're one of 1:40:16.880 --> 1:40:20.360 the few people like actually making these connections. And yeah, 1:40:20.360 --> 1:40:22.160 I really I really appreciate it. 1:40:22.560 --> 1:40:22.840 Thank you. 1:40:22.920 --> 1:40:27.479 I appreciate that you appreciate it because it's sometimes it's it's. 1:40:27.360 --> 1:40:29.200 Weird work to do, Like I just read a lot 1:40:29.200 --> 1:40:31.639 about horrible things, and. 1:40:33.120 --> 1:40:34.680 You know, I mean, like I was saying that I 1:40:34.720 --> 1:40:36.760 can take a toll on you to a degree, and 1:40:37.320 --> 1:40:38.960 sometimes I'll have to take breaks from it, but at 1:40:38.960 --> 1:40:40.240 the end of the day, I'm always going to go 1:40:40.280 --> 1:40:42.719 back to it because, like I think it's worth doing, 1:40:42.800 --> 1:40:44.639 because the stuff needs to be talked about. 1:40:45.160 --> 1:40:47.640 Yeah, so, I guess do you have anything else that 1:40:47.760 --> 1:40:48.639 you wanted to say. 1:40:48.439 --> 1:40:55.720 Before I'll just plug deprogramming, imperialism, those two words. I 1:40:55.760 --> 1:40:58.559 think there's an underscore on our Instagram. Let me just 1:40:58.600 --> 1:41:01.080 double check. If there's an underscore, we will. 1:41:00.960 --> 1:41:02.519 Put links to this in the description. 1:41:03.240 --> 1:41:03.960 Appreciate it. 1:41:04.479 --> 1:41:06.280 Yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show. 1:41:06.520 --> 1:41:08.519 And yeah, fuck these. 1:41:08.280 --> 1:41:12.439 People, yeah for real, they've done some really bad stuff. 1:41:13.240 --> 1:41:17.880 So hopefully, hopefully this is finally after like so many 1:41:17.920 --> 1:41:20.720 generations of terrible crimes they've been doing that. This is 1:41:20.760 --> 1:41:22.720 finally the one that's going to fucking crush them. 1:41:23.920 --> 1:41:26.400 We can hope, you know, yeah, you can very much 1:41:26.400 --> 1:41:28.920 hope though. And the more people are talking about it 1:41:28.960 --> 1:41:32.120 the better. The more people understand, like the history behind 1:41:32.160 --> 1:41:33.000 the movement, the better. 1:41:33.120 --> 1:41:34.240 So thanks for having me. 1:41:34.960 --> 1:41:38.599 Yeah, and yeah, this has been it can happen here. 1:41:39.120 --> 1:41:42.479 You can find us assuming Twitter still exists, when this 1:41:42.640 --> 1:41:48.200 goes up on Twitter, Instagram, haf in here pod. Yeah, 1:41:48.240 --> 1:41:51.439 you can find sources of goals on media. Yeah, go 1:41:51.680 --> 1:41:55.879 go into the world, destroy imperialism and crush the remains 1:41:55.920 --> 1:41:58.280 of these dog shit ass cults. 1:41:59.360 --> 1:42:18.080 Yeah, okay, I am also going cool. 1:42:18.040 --> 1:42:20.720 Let's go, let's suck it up. 1:42:21.080 --> 1:42:27.120 Mm hmm. Maybe that should be our intro. Keep it Yeah, 1:42:27.160 --> 1:42:29.280 you leave it all in Daniel. This is how. 1:42:29.280 --> 1:42:31.599 Fucking up my cool zone media. 1:42:33.000 --> 1:42:36.160 That's a great question, Robert, It's one we don't like 1:42:36.200 --> 1:42:40.559 to answer. The answer is yeah, Reaganagan coins. Yeah, we've 1:42:40.560 --> 1:42:41.080 got into it. 1:42:41.240 --> 1:42:44.559 Oh that's what's funding James. It's a common mistake mixing 1:42:44.600 --> 1:42:45.479 those two words up. 1:42:46.160 --> 1:42:47.960 Okay, I see yeah, yeah, I thought it was because 1:42:47.960 --> 1:42:49.680 we got to a dispute about who is going to 1:42:49.680 --> 1:42:52.680 get the next gold coin that they send us, No, 1:42:52.800 --> 1:42:53.679 every every month. 1:42:54.280 --> 1:42:57.519 Yeah, that's uh, that's that's what funds are. Incredible work, 1:42:57.640 --> 1:43:00.000 your incredible work mostly over at the border. 1:43:00.680 --> 1:43:01.080 That's right. 1:43:01.280 --> 1:43:04.599 Yep. Before enough, very good, thank you, magic man. 1:43:04.680 --> 1:43:04.920 Yeah. 1:43:05.000 --> 1:43:07.880 Right before and after I go, I dive like Scrooge 1:43:07.920 --> 1:43:10.599 mc duck into my giant pile of gold coins. Yeah, 1:43:10.640 --> 1:43:14.120 and it helps me recover. But yeah, talking of the border, 1:43:14.400 --> 1:43:16.280 I am not the only one with a giant pile 1:43:16.320 --> 1:43:18.559 of gold coins who has been going to the border 1:43:19.479 --> 1:43:24.600 because friend of the show Elon Musk, has also been taking. 1:43:25.120 --> 1:43:26.439 Well you got to bring him into this. 1:43:27.320 --> 1:43:30.080 Yeah, well, certainly, Rubbert, he brought himself into this. 1:43:30.240 --> 1:43:32.040 Why he got to bring himself out? 1:43:32.120 --> 1:43:36.000 Yeah, really, this wasn't my believe me, buddy. I would 1:43:36.040 --> 1:43:38.360 like nothing more than to never hear his name again, 1:43:39.040 --> 1:43:41.680 but unfortunately addressed. 1:43:41.760 --> 1:43:44.040 I would like to hear it again, but specifically I 1:43:44.040 --> 1:43:46.400 would like to hear the sentence from a news anchor 1:43:46.520 --> 1:43:49.680 Elon Musk eaten by a crocodile. Yes, I was just 1:43:49.760 --> 1:43:54.960 thinking crocodile in a failed motorcycle stunt in the Florida Keys. 1:43:55.120 --> 1:43:55.280 Yeah. 1:43:55.360 --> 1:43:58.559 Yeah, I'd settle with like hippopotamus, crocodile. 1:43:59.240 --> 1:44:03.240 Any semi aquatic animal eating him would be pretty amusing. 1:44:03.320 --> 1:44:03.479 Yeah. 1:44:03.560 --> 1:44:05.839 Yeah, if a managi ate him, I'd be fucking pumped. 1:44:07.439 --> 1:44:09.880 We'd love to see it. Yeah, if any one carnivor 1:44:09.880 --> 1:44:13.360 amanity yeah yeah, yeah, it's been training its whole life 1:44:13.400 --> 1:44:18.559 for this. Yeah, that'll be in our next merch drop. Okay, 1:44:18.720 --> 1:44:22.680 so yeah, Elmo in some kind of I don't know, 1:44:22.760 --> 1:44:25.559 like punished woody cosplay. 1:44:26.280 --> 1:44:28.160 It was the very costumish, it was. 1:44:28.360 --> 1:44:31.400 Yeah, it was. We have a saying in Texas for 1:44:31.640 --> 1:44:35.280 people who wear cowboy hats and cowboy boots when they shouldn't, 1:44:35.560 --> 1:44:38.680 and it's all had no cattle, and that is he 1:44:38.800 --> 1:44:40.160 is the definition of that. 1:44:41.520 --> 1:44:44.040 Classes I think really punched it up, you know. 1:44:44.280 --> 1:44:46.360 Yeah. 1:44:46.439 --> 1:44:48.439 Yeah, he just looked like a balland like I can't 1:44:48.560 --> 1:44:51.920 it's really remarkable that he can be that wealthy and 1:44:52.160 --> 1:44:55.800 always looks so awkward and like you could just pay 1:44:55.840 --> 1:44:58.599 someone to buy you clothes, bro, and like, at least 1:44:58.640 --> 1:45:02.960 Jeff Bezos got your when he got really rich. Elon 1:45:03.040 --> 1:45:06.280 must still looks like Humpty dumpty, not to like does 1:45:06.360 --> 1:45:10.200 look Besis looks weirdest freaking like a plastic They. 1:45:10.080 --> 1:45:14.320 All look weird, and I don't care about the fact 1:45:14.320 --> 1:45:18.240 that Elon Musk is. You know, he's not jagged or swollen, 1:45:18.280 --> 1:45:21.639 but he's not a wildly abnormal body shape for a man. 1:45:21.680 --> 1:45:23.080 And what is fucking fifty's like. 1:45:23.120 --> 1:45:25.080 Yeah, yeah, he's older than I imagine. 1:45:25.280 --> 1:45:28.439 I'm shit on him for playing at something he clearly 1:45:28.560 --> 1:45:31.040 is not, because no man has ever been further from 1:45:31.040 --> 1:45:31.919 being a cowboy. 1:45:32.280 --> 1:45:36.360 Yes, that is true, he has very few cattle. Yeah, 1:45:36.400 --> 1:45:39.320 there's no shame in anyone's body shape. It's just funny 1:45:39.320 --> 1:45:41.200 to mock Elon Musk, I guess. 1:45:41.520 --> 1:45:41.600 So. 1:45:42.240 --> 1:45:44.760 Yeah, Elon turned up at the border and he decided 1:45:44.800 --> 1:45:46.559 that he was going to learn about the border, and 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:48.880 the way that he decided he was going to learn 1:45:48.920 --> 1:45:52.160 about the border was by assembling a collection of cops 1:45:53.280 --> 1:45:56.639 and one representative to lie to him about the border, 1:45:57.200 --> 1:46:00.080 which many of you who follow things like Journalist and 1:46:00.360 --> 1:46:03.439 will be aware that cops lie actually quite a lot, 1:46:03.520 --> 1:46:08.400 and that is what happened here unsurprisingly. So I guess 1:46:08.479 --> 1:46:11.880 I just want to take this chance to a update 1:46:11.920 --> 1:46:14.400 everyone on what's been happening since we last upbated everyone 1:46:14.400 --> 1:46:17.120 what's been happening at the border, and be just address 1:46:17.200 --> 1:46:18.080 some of these myths. 1:46:18.520 --> 1:46:18.720 I know. 1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:21.040 Something we talked about over the break was like lots 1:46:21.080 --> 1:46:23.360 of people between now and the end of the year 1:46:23.479 --> 1:46:27.320 will be seeing family members who they might not see 1:46:27.400 --> 1:46:29.519 very often, and they might not see them too now 1:46:29.520 --> 1:46:31.000 in the next election. And there are a lot of 1:46:31.040 --> 1:46:34.720 myths specifically about migration that we will maybe copy in 1:46:34.720 --> 1:46:37.400 another episode. But I think there's some valuable stuff here 1:46:37.439 --> 1:46:40.519 that people can address. If people in your circle have 1:46:40.640 --> 1:46:44.120 been influenced by Elon Musk citizen journalism, then I think 1:46:44.120 --> 1:46:47.320 it's really important to just point out that it's all 1:46:47.320 --> 1:46:53.960 bullshit then so easily discoverably bullshit. Now, obviously not everyone 1:46:53.960 --> 1:46:55.960 spends as much time at the southern border of the 1:46:56.040 --> 1:46:58.680 United States as I do, and not everyone lives on 1:46:58.720 --> 1:47:01.760 the border. Must doesn't live on the border either, and 1:47:01.760 --> 1:47:05.120 he clearly thinks that people who do exist in some 1:47:05.200 --> 1:47:07.920 kind of world West fantasia where people you know, wear 1:47:07.960 --> 1:47:11.880 cowboy hats and cowboy boots. But like for most of us, 1:47:11.960 --> 1:47:14.040 for many of us, it's is our day to day reality, 1:47:14.080 --> 1:47:17.160 and so it's easy to go, I guess, and talk 1:47:17.200 --> 1:47:19.800 to some cops and like wave at some people who 1:47:19.800 --> 1:47:22.960 have been corralled up like like they like cattle or 1:47:23.000 --> 1:47:27.320 some kind of animals, right, yeah, right, like not engaging 1:47:27.320 --> 1:47:31.639 with them as people and throughout this right like, at 1:47:31.640 --> 1:47:34.680 no point in his little border screed, which I don't 1:47:34.680 --> 1:47:36.000 think you have to watch, by the way, if you 1:47:36.000 --> 1:47:38.040 haven't watched it, like I'm very now. 1:47:37.880 --> 1:47:40.920 You're not you're not going to like benefit from it. 1:47:41.240 --> 1:47:42.280 No, you won't learn shit. 1:47:42.920 --> 1:47:44.599 But there is there is a clip I found that's 1:47:44.640 --> 1:47:47.000 like a minute long on YouTube from the live stream 1:47:47.240 --> 1:47:50.400 where the like maybe like most ninety percent of it 1:47:50.439 --> 1:47:52.160 is him trying to flip the camera to. 1:47:53.760 --> 1:47:57.800 Yeah, that was that was very funny. Yeah that yes, 1:47:58.320 --> 1:48:01.559 real iron man vibes from the guy who can't reverse 1:48:01.560 --> 1:48:03.040 his camera and then he ends up just holding it 1:48:03.720 --> 1:48:11.439 the way around in yeah this intellectual yeah no titan 1:48:11.520 --> 1:48:14.280 Elil musk So. I think the first part is that 1:48:14.439 --> 1:48:16.120 when he starts to well, first he says as an 1:48:16.120 --> 1:48:18.919 immigrant myself, which is like, yeah, brock, I'm an immigrant 1:48:18.960 --> 1:48:21.320 to the differences. I didn't have to walk across the 1:48:21.360 --> 1:48:24.160 desert carrying my child and then be detained in open 1:48:24.200 --> 1:48:27.800 air concentration camp while people around me got fucking hypothermia 1:48:28.479 --> 1:48:32.720 and then questioned about the legitimacy of my travel and 1:48:33.160 --> 1:48:35.280 right to be here, and then I'm able to work 1:48:35.320 --> 1:48:40.120 for years. Migration experiences are different, different, and you don't 1:48:40.160 --> 1:48:43.240 have a right to condescend to people who are often 1:48:43.280 --> 1:48:45.080 among some of the least fortunate people in the world, 1:48:45.600 --> 1:48:47.360 just because your mum was a Canadian citizen and you 1:48:47.400 --> 1:48:48.920 came here to go to school, Like, it's not the 1:48:48.920 --> 1:48:52.559 fucking same. And I say this as someone who came 1:48:52.600 --> 1:48:55.400 here to go to school, right, Like, it's. 1:48:55.240 --> 1:48:57.720 The same as if like I were to take a 1:48:57.760 --> 1:49:01.559 fucking flight from North Africa to Spain and be like, well, 1:49:01.600 --> 1:49:04.960 having migrated to Spain from America, Like, it's really not 1:49:05.040 --> 1:49:08.520 a dangerous journey. Yeah, it's a completely different situation. 1:49:08.640 --> 1:49:12.080 Yeah, yes, yeah, And you compare yourself to Amelia Heart 1:49:12.080 --> 1:49:16.400 and the same, it's no different. So, yeah, like Elon 1:49:16.479 --> 1:49:18.360 Musk came to this country in a very different circumstance 1:49:18.400 --> 1:49:21.960 to many of these people. The first claim that's made 1:49:21.960 --> 1:49:24.000 in this video, which is which is bullshit. It's this 1:49:24.080 --> 1:49:27.200 quote unquote open border policy. Now, at no point do 1:49:27.360 --> 1:49:30.599 any of these like old men in hats define what 1:49:31.000 --> 1:49:33.840 they mean by open border policy. And that's because it 1:49:33.880 --> 1:49:37.240 doesn't exist. It's not a thing. There is no open 1:49:37.280 --> 1:49:41.400 border policy. There has never been an open border policy Biden's. 1:49:41.840 --> 1:49:46.680 So I was in Tijuana at the Pedwest people know where. 1:49:46.720 --> 1:49:48.880 That is so at that point in time that on 1:49:48.920 --> 1:49:51.280 the day Biden was inaugurated, I was there, right. I 1:49:51.360 --> 1:49:54.160 was there because a large group of migrants were waiting 1:49:54.200 --> 1:49:57.680 to see if Joe Biden would change anything, and they 1:49:57.720 --> 1:50:01.320 had been stuck in Tijuana for month years in some cases. 1:50:01.360 --> 1:50:03.600 I spoke to people who had been sexually assaulted. I 1:50:03.640 --> 1:50:06.320 spoke to people who had been robbed. I spoke to 1:50:06.320 --> 1:50:08.320 people who lived in fear for their lives right, and 1:50:08.400 --> 1:50:11.240 they were not safe in Mexico and wanted to come 1:50:11.280 --> 1:50:13.240 to the United States. And they had seen the way 1:50:13.240 --> 1:50:16.080 Biden campaigned, and they hoped that he would do something better. 1:50:16.400 --> 1:50:20.160 Did he fuck know? He did not. For years, he 1:50:20.280 --> 1:50:24.080 continued the same policies that Trump put in place in 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:28.599 COVID Biden Title forty two more people than Trump did. Right, 1:50:28.640 --> 1:50:31.320 The Title forty two policy was in place for much 1:50:31.360 --> 1:50:36.520 longer under Biden than it was under Trump. It's completely 1:50:36.880 --> 1:50:39.400 untrue to suggest that Biden not, at any point in 1:50:39.479 --> 1:50:42.920 his presidency opened up the border. What did happen in May. 1:50:43.120 --> 1:50:45.840 As people will be aware, is that Title forty two ended. 1:50:45.880 --> 1:50:49.240 It didn't end because Biden decided it had to end. 1:50:49.360 --> 1:50:53.880 It ended because the emergency for COVID nineteen ended. And 1:50:54.080 --> 1:50:57.519 Title forty two is not immigration law, its public health law. 1:50:57.800 --> 1:51:01.360 And so with the end of this policy, that allowed 1:51:01.360 --> 1:51:03.479 the government to do things that would not normally be 1:51:03.520 --> 1:51:05.880 able to do because it was a quote unquote emergency, 1:51:06.520 --> 1:51:11.160 they were not able to do this extraordinary and extraordinarily 1:51:11.200 --> 1:51:13.479 cruel thing, which which was Title forty two. Right, That 1:51:13.600 --> 1:51:16.519 wasn't a Biden choice, that that was an end, that 1:51:16.680 --> 1:51:19.480 was a decision forced upon him. Indeed, the Biden administration 1:51:19.560 --> 1:51:22.920 defended Title forty two in court. What has happened since 1:51:22.920 --> 1:51:26.240 then is that migrant numbers have dropped. They have decreased 1:51:26.640 --> 1:51:29.519 since the end of Title forty two. That's because lots 1:51:29.520 --> 1:51:34.080 of people saw the harsh anti migration rhetoric that was 1:51:34.120 --> 1:51:37.200 coming from the Biden White House, right, Mayorcus out there 1:51:37.320 --> 1:51:40.360 spouting stuff about bands you'll be banned from seeking asylum 1:51:40.400 --> 1:51:43.759 for five years if your court crossing between ports of entry, 1:51:44.040 --> 1:51:45.840 and that led to people thinking they had to cross 1:51:45.880 --> 1:51:49.000 before the end of Title forty two. Right now, what 1:51:49.080 --> 1:51:51.320 Title forty two did do is create a massive backlog 1:51:51.760 --> 1:51:55.280 of asylum applications because we weren't processing those applications and 1:51:55.320 --> 1:51:58.880 we were bouncing people back to Mexico, where as I've 1:51:58.880 --> 1:52:02.439 hopefully already illustrated, they were not safe. They didn't feel 1:52:02.479 --> 1:52:05.880 that that was a safe third country for them, and 1:52:05.960 --> 1:52:09.120 so in the months after Title forty two, those people 1:52:09.200 --> 1:52:13.519 have tried to cross and to make their asylum applications right. 1:52:13.520 --> 1:52:15.920 They're supposed to use app called CBP one. As we've 1:52:15.920 --> 1:52:19.040 documented in very great detail, that app is completely unfit 1:52:19.120 --> 1:52:21.960 for purpose. And people can listen to my title forty 1:52:22.000 --> 1:52:24.160 two episodes, they can listen to the interview when it 1:52:24.200 --> 1:52:27.639 did with Jake and Austin about CBP one. The issues 1:52:27.680 --> 1:52:30.280 with it are many. The facial liveness scan that it 1:52:30.320 --> 1:52:34.080 does doesn't work for people who have darker skin, It 1:52:34.200 --> 1:52:37.400 requires Wi Fi, it requires Internet connectivity. These are things 1:52:37.439 --> 1:52:40.040 that no long migrants have, and that the migrants who 1:52:40.040 --> 1:52:42.040 do have tend to be richer and tend to be whiter, 1:52:42.640 --> 1:52:46.639 so it facilitates a certain type of migrant. At one 1:52:46.720 --> 1:52:50.559 point in I believe April of this year, forty percent 1:52:50.720 --> 1:52:56.000 of the CBP one applications that were CBP one appointments 1:52:56.080 --> 1:52:58.639 that were made for Sylum applications were made for people 1:52:58.640 --> 1:53:01.320 who spoke Russian. If we spoke Russian on not forty 1:53:01.320 --> 1:53:04.160 percent of the migrants that was in Tijuana. And I guess 1:53:04.280 --> 1:53:08.080 what that means is that people who you know, especially 1:53:08.120 --> 1:53:11.280 in my experience, people from African countries are unable to 1:53:11.320 --> 1:53:14.280 apply for appointments using CBP one. Also, it's only available 1:53:14.280 --> 1:53:17.000 in a couple of languages, or three languages I believe, English, Spanish, 1:53:17.000 --> 1:53:19.960 and Haitian Creole. If you don't speak those languages is 1:53:20.000 --> 1:53:21.639 going to be a lot harder. There are many other 1:53:21.680 --> 1:53:24.639 issues with CBP one and other apps that DHS uses. 1:53:24.760 --> 1:53:27.800 But what has happened since the end of title forty 1:53:27.800 --> 1:53:30.360 two in May right is people have tried. This backlog 1:53:30.560 --> 1:53:33.840 has begun to sort of people have started to try 1:53:33.880 --> 1:53:36.080 and present their applications. And what's happening now is that 1:53:36.120 --> 1:53:39.799 people are crossing in very large numbers. That's not untrue 1:53:40.240 --> 1:53:43.800 that happens at this time of year. So the last 1:53:43.920 --> 1:53:48.439 kind of quote unquote normal years we had were I 1:53:48.479 --> 1:53:51.599 suppose twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen. If people cast their 1:53:51.600 --> 1:53:55.559 minds back to the November of twenty eighteen. You remember 1:53:55.600 --> 1:53:58.160 that was the Trump midterms, and you remember the quote 1:53:58.200 --> 1:54:01.320 unquote migrant caravan that are Identijuana at that time with 1:54:01.400 --> 1:54:04.920 thousands of people. The reason that people are always traveling 1:54:04.960 --> 1:54:07.479 at this time of year is because it is easier 1:54:07.479 --> 1:54:09.439 to travel in the months and I was hot, right, 1:54:09.560 --> 1:54:11.519 So we will see more people arriving the next few months. 1:54:11.560 --> 1:54:14.719 That's part of seasonal migrationments because of demand for work. 1:54:15.000 --> 1:54:17.679 If you're working harvesting things right as a day laborer, 1:54:18.160 --> 1:54:21.479 that happens at the end of the summer. This is 1:54:21.600 --> 1:54:24.759 part of a normal and natural cycle. People have always 1:54:24.800 --> 1:54:29.960 traveled since human beings have existed to take advantage of 1:54:29.960 --> 1:54:33.720 different conditions, different access to resources. But the idea that 1:54:33.720 --> 1:54:36.960 at some point Biden instituted an open border policy is nonsense. 1:54:37.000 --> 1:54:39.640 Biden has closed that border, right, He's built walls through 1:54:39.640 --> 1:54:43.280 Friendship Park, He's built walls in Texas, he's built walls 1:54:43.280 --> 1:54:48.839 in California, He's funded DHS more. That border is certainly 1:54:48.880 --> 1:54:52.000 not open. The large groups of people that you are 1:54:52.120 --> 1:54:57.880 seeing going through the asylum process under US immigration law, 1:54:58.000 --> 1:55:01.080 as they have under every other president. They come into 1:55:01.120 --> 1:55:05.160 the United States, they do an initial interview and they're 1:55:05.200 --> 1:55:08.560 released with a notice to appear in court. That's always 1:55:08.600 --> 1:55:11.080 been the case. Now are those notices to appear for 1:55:11.200 --> 1:55:14.720 dates at further in the future now, Absolutely, And that's 1:55:14.760 --> 1:55:18.200 because our system is backlogged. Right, because we spent all 1:55:18.240 --> 1:55:22.160 our fucking money on giving border patrol, the black Hawks, 1:55:22.200 --> 1:55:24.400 giving our cops tanks, whatever it is that we spend 1:55:24.400 --> 1:55:26.320 our money on, we haven't spent it on making it 1:55:26.360 --> 1:55:28.879 easier and quicker for these people to get their asylum 1:55:28.960 --> 1:55:33.040 claims adjudicated. One of the claims that they make in 1:55:33.080 --> 1:55:35.320 the video I'm skipping out of the order that they 1:55:35.400 --> 1:55:38.320 make them in is that the repute he speaking to 1:55:38.640 --> 1:55:42.240 representative who's a representative for the Southern border region of Texas. 1:55:42.240 --> 1:55:44.640 He's in Eagle Past, Texas, right, which is an area 1:55:44.720 --> 1:55:48.000 which I've seen a lot of migration. The guy says 1:55:48.040 --> 1:55:51.200 there's no repatriation here. Of course, there isn't any repatriation there. 1:55:51.240 --> 1:55:54.480 That's not what happens in Eagle Pass right. People come, 1:55:55.160 --> 1:55:57.680 some of them will be immediately repatriated if they are 1:55:57.720 --> 1:56:01.280 found to be For instance, know that in May somebody 1:56:01.320 --> 1:56:03.520 who was found to be on the United States terrorism 1:56:03.600 --> 1:56:06.080 watch list tried to enter the country. That that person 1:56:06.200 --> 1:56:08.720 wasn't released with a notice to appear right, that person 1:56:08.800 --> 1:56:11.960 was immediately bounced into either return to their country or 1:56:12.000 --> 1:56:14.960 more likely in their case, incarcerated. Some people will be 1:56:15.000 --> 1:56:18.920 detained there. Some people will be repatriated there, but that's 1:56:18.960 --> 1:56:23.560 because like Del Rio, Texas or Eagle Pass doesn't repatriate people. 1:56:24.680 --> 1:56:27.240 That's not their role. The courts are the ones who 1:56:27.280 --> 1:56:31.280 decide who is eligible for asylent right. And it's worth 1:56:31.320 --> 1:56:33.800 noting that this fiscal year, so that's through August of 1:56:33.800 --> 1:56:38.080 twenty twenty three, recording in October, but I couldn't find 1:56:38.120 --> 1:56:42.200 September stats. Immigration judges have issued removal and voluntary departure 1:56:42.280 --> 1:56:45.480 orders for thirty nine point four percent of completed cases, 1:56:45.880 --> 1:56:48.720 totaling two hundred and twenty three thousand, five hundred and 1:56:48.760 --> 1:56:51.800 seventy deportation orders. So it's absolutely ludicrous to say that 1:56:51.800 --> 1:56:55.600 there's no repatriation. Nearly half of those cases when they 1:56:55.640 --> 1:57:00.600 come to court result in repatriation. It's and then the 1:57:01.000 --> 1:57:03.480 representative claims that he called the president of Guatemalan the 1:57:03.520 --> 1:57:06.880 Guatemalan president said will take people back. Great, of course 1:57:06.880 --> 1:57:10.240 they will. That that's how international law works. It's not 1:57:10.280 --> 1:57:15.640 the Guatemalan president's job to decide who is decide who 1:57:15.680 --> 1:57:17.760 is allowed asylum in the United States. That's the job 1:57:17.760 --> 1:57:22.000 of the immigration courts. They are deeply flawed. But it's 1:57:22.120 --> 1:57:25.560 ludicrous to suggests that these people are not being sent back, 1:57:25.600 --> 1:57:28.320 because a deeply problematic number of them are being sent back, 1:57:28.400 --> 1:57:33.000 often to very dangerous situations. And I think it's it's 1:57:33.040 --> 1:57:37.919 deeply misleading and it's troubling to see like elected officials 1:57:37.960 --> 1:57:41.160 making these claims. I know that elected officials just lie to, 1:57:41.680 --> 1:57:45.080 you know, to to reinforce the narrative, but it's still troubling. 1:57:45.800 --> 1:57:48.280 Another claim they were like he was really shocked that 1:57:48.320 --> 1:57:51.200 people were playing golf next to the border. The US 1:57:51.280 --> 1:57:54.360 border is thousands of miles long, like we live, like 1:57:54.760 --> 1:57:56.640 for those of us, for whom it's not like an 1:57:56.640 --> 1:57:59.400 oddity to come and cause play at it's where we live. 1:57:59.560 --> 1:58:02.920 And of course we do stuff near the border because 1:58:02.960 --> 1:58:06.080 it's our home. Like I was camping near the border 1:58:06.120 --> 1:58:08.000 this week. I ride my bike near the border all 1:58:08.000 --> 1:58:11.760 the time. There are other golf courses near the border, 1:58:11.800 --> 1:58:14.920 there are parks near the border, and there's a Tommy 1:58:15.000 --> 1:58:18.280 Hill figure discount store near the border in Santa Sedro, like, yeah, 1:58:19.440 --> 1:58:19.960 it's our home. 1:58:20.520 --> 1:58:23.040 Yeah, yeah, it's This is something that when we were 1:58:23.040 --> 1:58:25.800 at the Butterfly Sanctuary, a friend of ours who had 1:58:25.840 --> 1:58:29.560 kind of lived on the border for forever, Marianna, brought 1:58:29.640 --> 1:58:32.280 up a lot, which is that like prior to the 1:58:32.560 --> 1:58:36.560 you know, September eleventh in particular, these were just like communities, 1:58:36.600 --> 1:58:38.240 Like the fact that there was a border was more 1:58:38.280 --> 1:58:41.360 theoretical than anything else. You would cross pretty free. I 1:58:41.360 --> 1:58:43.560 have friends in southern California that go into Mexico for 1:58:43.600 --> 1:58:45.400 the week and you didn't have a pass border or anything. 1:58:45.560 --> 1:58:48.560 Like families you know, would cross to be with each 1:58:48.600 --> 1:58:51.560 other and stuff like. It was, yeah, the way it is. 1:58:51.840 --> 1:58:53.720 Even post nine eleven. Like for those of us who 1:58:53.720 --> 1:58:56.200 are fortunate enough to have Century, which is an expert, 1:58:56.640 --> 1:58:59.280 you can skip the line basically because you've been pre cleared. 1:59:00.080 --> 1:59:03.160 I go to Tijuana to have dinner pretty often, Like 1:59:03.240 --> 1:59:06.080 I'll take the trolley down there and then walk through 1:59:06.120 --> 1:59:08.880 with my bicycle and then ride my bike to the 1:59:08.920 --> 1:59:11.320 gastropark or something, have dinner, have a couple of beers, 1:59:11.400 --> 1:59:13.600 rid my back back, take the trolley back. It's nice evening. 1:59:14.160 --> 1:59:16.840 Yeah, I mean, I don't know how cold it is now, 1:59:16.880 --> 1:59:20.080 but like a lot of like people that work like 1:59:20.160 --> 1:59:22.320 nine to five retail jobs or whatever it is, they 1:59:22.360 --> 1:59:24.560 would just like leave tou Wana and come back, like dad, 1:59:24.680 --> 1:59:27.040 My dad had hired a bunch of those workers. Yeah, 1:59:27.080 --> 1:59:29.280 and it was just like normal, was very normal to 1:59:29.320 --> 1:59:29.520 do that. 1:59:30.520 --> 1:59:33.240 More so now because San Diego is less affordable than 1:59:33.280 --> 1:59:34.080 it as it has been. 1:59:34.400 --> 1:59:37.560 Like, Yeah, I think the people that don't live near 1:59:37.560 --> 1:59:42.840 a border or like believe the Rickulus claims me about it. 1:59:43.120 --> 1:59:45.160 I think they imagine the border is like in this 1:59:45.320 --> 1:59:47.960 barren wasteland and it's just like a chain link fence 1:59:48.040 --> 1:59:51.240 or something. I don't think they understand what it actually is. 1:59:52.560 --> 1:59:57.959 They imagine like this desolate, yellow filtered scene from Breaking Bad. Yes, exactly, 1:59:58.080 --> 2:00:00.920 like movies like fucking Sakaria right where it's this this 2:00:01.080 --> 2:00:05.000 constant series of gunfights and like like violence occurs on 2:00:05.040 --> 2:00:06.880 the border. It's the same thing. It's actually a version 2:00:06.880 --> 2:00:08.720 of the same shit that's happened with like San Francisco 2:00:08.840 --> 2:00:09.440 and Portland. 2:00:09.520 --> 2:00:09.640 Right. 2:00:09.960 --> 2:00:12.600 Yeah, you have like a riot on a block, or 2:00:12.640 --> 2:00:15.760 you'll have like a store get robbed, and then people 2:00:15.880 --> 2:00:18.640 develop this because it gets so hyped by the media 2:00:18.640 --> 2:00:21.480 there's you can't go into these cities. They're death zones. 2:00:21.560 --> 2:00:21.760 You know. 2:00:22.240 --> 2:00:25.880 It was like no man, like a fucking most most 2:00:25.880 --> 2:00:29.400 of its nature, right, like that's the fucking border. 2:00:30.440 --> 2:00:33.960 Yeah, it's just a place like it's it's not in 2:00:34.040 --> 2:00:35.600 any way remarkable like that. 2:00:35.920 --> 2:00:38.560 And the primary danger is the fact that people are 2:00:38.680 --> 2:00:42.760 stopped from having access to like things like water that 2:00:42.800 --> 2:00:45.840 they need, yeah, by the state. 2:00:46.360 --> 2:00:47.720 So maybe it's a good time to talk about some 2:00:47.760 --> 2:00:50.320 of the dangers that migrants are facing right now. In 2:00:50.360 --> 2:00:53.520 the last couple of weeks, it's maybe since we last recorded, 2:00:54.080 --> 2:00:56.520 I believe five migrants have been shot on the southern 2:00:56.560 --> 2:01:01.440 side of the border. People. So like this week in 2:01:01.480 --> 2:01:04.000 southern California, it's much colder. I know it's hot in 2:01:04.040 --> 2:01:05.600 lots of parts of the country. It wasn't here. We 2:01:05.640 --> 2:01:10.360 had rain. We're recording on like the first second of October. 2:01:11.000 --> 2:01:15.240 But last weekend was very cold. I was in a 2:01:15.280 --> 2:01:20.240 camp near Hakumba on Friday night through late Friday night 2:01:20.400 --> 2:01:22.160 maybe into Saturday morning, and. 2:01:22.600 --> 2:01:24.000 It was cold. It was wet. 2:01:24.440 --> 2:01:28.360 Temperatures were getting like into the single digits celsius, into 2:01:28.360 --> 2:01:32.960 the forties and fifties fahrenheit when it's wet, and it's 2:01:33.000 --> 2:01:35.000 that kind of temperature that's when you start worrying about 2:01:35.000 --> 2:01:38.160 people getting hypothermia, which is exactly what happened right. People 2:01:38.200 --> 2:01:42.800 were sick, people had to be evacuated. On Friday night, 2:01:42.880 --> 2:01:46.840 I was heating up milk for a baby, like a 2:01:46.880 --> 2:01:50.720 tiny little baby in my camping stove, so that the 2:01:50.720 --> 2:01:55.200 baby could have milk like not freezing temperatures. Right, it 2:01:55.240 --> 2:02:00.040 gave someone my gortex jacket. I was there with James 2:02:00.080 --> 2:02:03.800 and Jacqueline from Boarder Kindness and some other friends. I 2:02:03.840 --> 2:02:05.840 know some of them listen to the podcast, and it 2:02:05.880 --> 2:02:08.160 makes me really happy that people who listen to this 2:02:08.360 --> 2:02:10.360 like take the time out of their busy lives to 2:02:10.400 --> 2:02:12.120 show up and help other people. Like that's one of 2:02:12.160 --> 2:02:14.560 the coolest things that about what we do. 2:02:15.000 --> 2:02:18.520 We're very proud of those people and everyone else, you know, Yeah, 2:02:18.880 --> 2:02:20.280 pick up the slack, come on guys. 2:02:20.800 --> 2:02:24.760 Yeah, Like I know on that topic, like, there are 2:02:24.760 --> 2:02:27.920 a relatively few of us. It's a very remote area 2:02:28.000 --> 2:02:31.240 where we were. You know, you need a truck to 2:02:31.240 --> 2:02:34.080 get to it. Maybe a decent clearance car would be fine, 2:02:34.080 --> 2:02:37.400 but there were like six of us at one point. 2:02:37.440 --> 2:02:40.240 It is not easy to do that. Day in and 2:02:40.320 --> 2:02:43.040 day out. It really affects you to see someone's little 2:02:43.040 --> 2:02:45.760 baby sleeping in the dirt and they're asking you, like, 2:02:45.880 --> 2:02:48.120 you know, can I have a jacket and you've already 2:02:48.120 --> 2:02:50.000 given someone your jacket? Can I have a sleeping bag 2:02:50.040 --> 2:02:52.160 and you've given away all the sleeping bags you have? Like, 2:02:53.520 --> 2:02:55.200 it's fucked. It's not good for you. And I know 2:02:55.240 --> 2:02:57.240 it's taken a toll on those people, and it would 2:02:57.240 --> 2:03:00.680 be great if more people could come. As James Jaqueline said, 2:03:00.680 --> 2:03:04.200 we're vetting everyone because there are people who would like 2:03:04.240 --> 2:03:06.919 to do harm to migrants and people who don't like migrants. 2:03:06.960 --> 2:03:08.640 And so if you go back and listen to the 2:03:08.680 --> 2:03:11.840 episode or the relevant links and email addresses to volunteer there, 2:03:12.240 --> 2:03:15.320 even if you just send money, it's better to send 2:03:15.360 --> 2:03:17.840 money then to send us stuff. We've had a ton 2:03:17.880 --> 2:03:19.880 of I spent a decent chunk of Friday afternoon going 2:03:19.920 --> 2:03:21.800 through donated stuff. Some of it's great, some of it 2:03:21.840 --> 2:03:25.760 I'm afraid. Like, if a jacket is has giant holes 2:03:25.760 --> 2:03:27.560 in it for you, it also has giant holes in 2:03:27.600 --> 2:03:29.360 it for someone who's less rich than you, and it 2:03:29.680 --> 2:03:32.680 doesn't keep them any warmer than it keeps you, so like, 2:03:32.840 --> 2:03:36.040 you know, it's better if people send money, but that's 2:03:36.080 --> 2:03:38.360 taken its toll on people. It's taking its toll on 2:03:38.360 --> 2:03:40.360 the people in the camps too, not to say that 2:03:40.440 --> 2:03:43.920 they're not in very good spirits. Like it's so I 2:03:43.960 --> 2:03:45.800 was there at about ten o'clock at night when people 2:03:46.040 --> 2:03:48.560 What happens, right is people walk around the gaps in 2:03:48.600 --> 2:03:52.280 the wall, which again didn't come up in Elon Musk's video. 2:03:52.360 --> 2:03:54.520 Right there are giant, yawning gaps in the wall because 2:03:54.520 --> 2:03:55.800 they were trying to build as much of it as 2:03:55.800 --> 2:03:58.760 possible before the twenty twenty election, and so they skipped 2:03:58.800 --> 2:04:01.640 the hard parts. So people walk through where the wall stops, 2:04:02.320 --> 2:04:05.440 they're met by border patrol. Border patrol then drives them. 2:04:05.480 --> 2:04:07.160 I don't mean drive somebody like put them in the 2:04:07.160 --> 2:04:08.800 back of the vehicle. I mean drive them like you 2:04:08.840 --> 2:04:11.280 would drive cattle, by going behind them in a vehicle 2:04:11.600 --> 2:04:16.400 and pushing them forward and walks them into the camp, right, 2:04:16.600 --> 2:04:19.680 and then they arrive in the camp, and it's it's 2:04:20.000 --> 2:04:23.440 they arrive and like I was going up to ascertained, 2:04:23.600 --> 2:04:25.520 you know what sort of group it was? Were they 2:04:25.640 --> 2:04:29.080 people who were in severe distress? Right, like hypothermic or 2:04:29.120 --> 2:04:31.680 hurt or injured. I know someone came later in a 2:04:31.680 --> 2:04:34.080 week who had a very bad injury, who had fallen 2:04:34.120 --> 2:04:37.960 maybe trying to climb the wall. And so you're going 2:04:38.000 --> 2:04:39.600 to kind of trite that group, right, And some people 2:04:39.640 --> 2:04:42.680 were really start they're in America, like, and then they 2:04:42.760 --> 2:04:44.280 wanted to give me like a hug or a fist 2:04:44.280 --> 2:04:46.720 bump and be like, yeah, I'm here. Obviously some of 2:04:46.720 --> 2:04:50.080 them weren't prepared. None of them were prepared for sleeping outside. 2:04:50.720 --> 2:04:53.760 And then generally, like there have been large kind of 2:04:54.320 --> 2:04:58.160 just shelters made out of cacti or brush or scrub 2:04:58.240 --> 2:05:01.920 or whatever's there, which tend to be based around like 2:05:02.120 --> 2:05:05.160 national groups, right, just people have their community so that 2:05:05.240 --> 2:05:08.480 it's one for Colombian people, Brazilian people, punt Jabi, Sikh people. 2:05:09.160 --> 2:05:13.400 There were Kurdish people, Turkish, a lot of Turkish people, 2:05:13.680 --> 2:05:16.120 Afghan people, and so they kind of because they can 2:05:16.160 --> 2:05:18.400 talk to each other, they'll be like, hey, come over here, 2:05:18.480 --> 2:05:21.240 Afghan friend, like you know, we'll look after you. We've 2:05:21.280 --> 2:05:23.360 got this shelter set out, we've got a fire going, 2:05:23.720 --> 2:05:28.160 get yourself warm. And then those people can spend anywhere 2:05:28.200 --> 2:05:31.600 from one to three days there before they're taken out right, 2:05:31.680 --> 2:05:35.920 and so like, it's an extremely bad situation and it 2:05:35.960 --> 2:05:39.480 will only get worse, So weather gets worse. Talking of 2:05:39.520 --> 2:05:43.480 things which which are bad, should should we should we 2:05:43.480 --> 2:05:45.480 take this opportunity to pivot to things that people don't 2:05:45.520 --> 2:05:46.000 need to buy. 2:05:46.640 --> 2:05:56.240 Yeah, they definitely need to buy them, James, because pass anyway, 2:05:56.240 --> 2:05:56.760 here's ads. 2:05:57.960 --> 2:06:01.440 All right, we're back, hopeful you have repleted. You're a 2:06:01.480 --> 2:06:06.400 pile of goldgoyins. So I wanted to return to addressing 2:06:06.480 --> 2:06:09.040 some words of disinformation that Elon Muskot from Men and 2:06:09.080 --> 2:06:11.800 cowboy hats. One of the things they talked about a 2:06:11.800 --> 2:06:15.760 lot was that they talk about numbers, right, They're like, oh, 2:06:15.840 --> 2:06:19.520 there are two million, there are four million. At no 2:06:19.600 --> 2:06:23.000 point do they say what these numbers represent. Are these 2:06:23.080 --> 2:06:27.800 numbers net migration? Are they border crossings between ports of entry? 2:06:28.400 --> 2:06:32.200 Are they the number of asylum cases? Are they the 2:06:32.280 --> 2:06:34.880 number of encounters the border patrol has had? Because as 2:06:34.920 --> 2:06:38.240 we know, right, an encounter doesn't necessarily mean individual. If 2:06:38.240 --> 2:06:40.040 one person crosses two or three times, that's two or 2:06:40.080 --> 2:06:44.000 three encounters, right, And they never talk about that because 2:06:44.040 --> 2:06:47.520 they're just pulling this shit out their asses. If you 2:06:47.920 --> 2:06:51.880 want information, these people are not people to get it from. 2:06:52.560 --> 2:06:55.240 None of them are even working in border enforcement. 2:06:55.280 --> 2:06:55.440 Right. 2:06:55.440 --> 2:06:58.840 These were sheriffs that he spoke to. They talk a 2:06:58.880 --> 2:07:02.400 lot about how there are quote unquote two million of them, 2:07:02.480 --> 2:07:06.760 but the real number is four or five million because 2:07:06.800 --> 2:07:11.040 of the quote unquote gotaways a people who have not 2:07:11.160 --> 2:07:13.200 been processed at all. Right, They have entered between ports 2:07:13.200 --> 2:07:18.240 of entry and then are undocumented. This is nonsense. People 2:07:18.640 --> 2:07:23.240 don't want to be undocumented. People are here because they 2:07:23.280 --> 2:07:27.480 believe they have a legitimate asylum claim. They are fleeing violence, right, 2:07:27.480 --> 2:07:29.240 they have one of the We've been over to five 2:07:29.280 --> 2:07:32.000 categories that you can get asylum for before on the podcast. 2:07:32.080 --> 2:07:35.640 I won't read them out again, but I have seen people. 2:07:36.240 --> 2:07:39.240 For instance, I saw one person who they were transported 2:07:39.280 --> 2:07:40.920 to the hospital. The hospital let them out on the 2:07:40.960 --> 2:07:43.680 street in San Diego. They took a cab back to 2:07:43.760 --> 2:07:47.160 the border because they don't want to just be floating 2:07:47.200 --> 2:07:49.760 around in the US with no papers and able to work, 2:07:49.880 --> 2:07:52.240 worried that like a parking ticket or a traffic stock 2:07:52.400 --> 2:07:55.280 could send them back to wherever they'd fled from. Right, 2:07:55.360 --> 2:07:58.280 Because they've fled because they're afraid of something, and they 2:07:58.280 --> 2:07:59.720 don't want to be sent back. 2:08:00.440 --> 2:08:02.120 I think something that really bothered me in the video 2:08:02.320 --> 2:08:06.320 was how much they emphasize that, Like, remember, most of 2:08:06.360 --> 2:08:09.680 these people that can be escaping prison, they're all in 2:08:10.040 --> 2:08:12.680 they used to be incarcerated. And I'm just like, what, Like, 2:08:12.800 --> 2:08:16.040 that's not it's just like this fear mongering tactic that's 2:08:16.080 --> 2:08:19.360 so silly and trying to make people all believe that 2:08:19.360 --> 2:08:23.720 there's everyone at the border are just like prison inmates essentially. 2:08:24.360 --> 2:08:24.560 Yeah. 2:08:24.680 --> 2:08:27.560 The other side, all you often get is like, well, 2:08:27.560 --> 2:08:29.720 they're all young men heading over, and a lot of 2:08:29.800 --> 2:08:32.640 times of this like some of this is like racial panic, 2:08:32.680 --> 2:08:34.640 they're gonna you know, take our women or whatever. Some 2:08:34.680 --> 2:08:37.520 of this is like, you know, men are soldiers, you know, 2:08:37.560 --> 2:08:41.960 it's military. The reality is that, like, especially when you're 2:08:41.960 --> 2:08:43.960 talking about like the migrants who are crossing the fucking 2:08:44.040 --> 2:08:47.120 dairy and gap, this is an incredibly dangerous journey. Young 2:08:47.160 --> 2:08:50.440 men are generally a little more capable physically of it. 2:08:50.480 --> 2:08:54.400 And also it's you know, especially given some realities of 2:08:54.520 --> 2:08:56.560 a lot of you know, these cultures, that's who you 2:08:56.640 --> 2:08:59.080 expect to go and make money and send it back 2:08:59.120 --> 2:09:03.320 to their families like that that's just like it's they're 2:09:03.320 --> 2:09:06.320 not invading you. You know, this is like, these are 2:09:06.360 --> 2:09:09.040 the people who are going to work jobs and send 2:09:09.080 --> 2:09:10.400 money back to their families. 2:09:11.240 --> 2:09:14.200 Yeah, like we live in a society which is both patriarchial, 2:09:14.400 --> 2:09:17.720 patriarch and misogynist. Right, They're able to command a higher 2:09:17.760 --> 2:09:20.520 wage and they can use that to keep their families alive. 2:09:21.000 --> 2:09:24.360 I've spoken to lots of families for whom the young 2:09:24.440 --> 2:09:28.080 men left the country there in first earned money somewhere else, 2:09:28.360 --> 2:09:30.400 and then was able to raise enough money to get 2:09:30.400 --> 2:09:33.000 the rest of their family smuggled out or to facilitate 2:09:33.040 --> 2:09:35.120 their transport and then bring them to the US because 2:09:35.120 --> 2:09:37.520 they thought it wasn't safe for them there. Also, like, 2:09:37.600 --> 2:09:41.120 if you're a military aged male in some countries Russia 2:09:41.240 --> 2:09:43.400 or lots of countries in the sahell, now you could 2:09:43.400 --> 2:09:47.960 be forcibly drafted right into one of any number of 2:09:48.720 --> 2:09:52.440 conflicts that you want no part of. And I wouldn't 2:09:52.440 --> 2:09:54.640 want to do that either. I'd want to leave right 2:09:55.000 --> 2:09:57.120 And I've spoken to people who have fled that kind 2:09:57.160 --> 2:10:01.600 of situation this week. So Yeah, of the gender balance, 2:10:01.840 --> 2:10:03.400 I don't know, it's very hard to get a sense 2:10:03.400 --> 2:10:06.080 of the actual gender balance because border patrol tends to 2:10:06.080 --> 2:10:10.160 process women and children first, and especially unaccompany children of 2:10:10.160 --> 2:10:13.560 course first, but it's very hard to get into the 2:10:13.640 --> 2:10:18.200 actual gender balance without like looking at border patrol statistics, 2:10:18.200 --> 2:10:20.160 and they take a month or two to come out generally. Yeah, 2:10:20.280 --> 2:10:23.000 they talk about people with tear drop tattoos. I would 2:10:23.120 --> 2:10:25.360 estimate that I have seen tens, if not hundreds of 2:10:25.440 --> 2:10:28.360 thousands of people at the southern border. I've never seen 2:10:28.400 --> 2:10:31.600 anyone with the tear drop tattoo a leg. You'd have 2:10:31.680 --> 2:10:33.080 to be all to have. 2:10:33.200 --> 2:10:36.200 They described these like hordes of people trying to get 2:10:36.280 --> 2:10:37.080 into your home. 2:10:38.600 --> 2:10:42.960 Yes, I genuinely think that someone looked up I don't know, 2:10:43.080 --> 2:10:47.840 like Latino gangster on Google images, like right before, like 2:10:48.040 --> 2:10:51.400 racist Google images or whatever, like before they before they 2:10:51.440 --> 2:10:53.240 went down to the border. Like, I've never seen anyone 2:10:53.240 --> 2:10:54.520 with a tear drop tattoo. You'd have to be a 2:10:54.560 --> 2:10:57.160 bit of a lemon to like present yourself for asylum 2:10:57.240 --> 2:11:00.680 with obvious like stuff like that. They're asolutely going to 2:11:00.680 --> 2:11:02.600 ask you about your tattoos, or they'll ask you about everything. 2:11:03.480 --> 2:11:07.240 It's just laughable, it's ridiculous. It's all based in myth 2:11:07.800 --> 2:11:12.280 and not in reality. And what troubles me the most 2:11:12.320 --> 2:11:13.800 I think is I don't know how many people have 2:11:13.880 --> 2:11:16.760 watched Elon Musk's live stream, right, and hopefully most of 2:11:16.800 --> 2:11:19.400 them that did saw someone completely incapable of like asking 2:11:19.480 --> 2:11:23.480 interrogated questions, or reversing the camera on his phone, or 2:11:23.560 --> 2:11:28.200 look dressing like a cowboy. But there has been, to 2:11:28.360 --> 2:11:31.920 my knowledge, no national network coverage of what's happening in 2:11:32.000 --> 2:11:34.800 a cumber right. There has been limited local coverage of 2:11:34.880 --> 2:11:36.839 what's happening in U Cumba. What that has has already 2:11:36.960 --> 2:11:38.880 stopped because like it was a kind of one and 2:11:38.960 --> 2:11:42.760 done situation for a lot of outlets, but it's not 2:11:42.880 --> 2:11:45.520 one and done for the people who are volunteering, and 2:11:45.640 --> 2:11:46.960 it's not one and done for the people who are 2:11:46.960 --> 2:11:50.160 still arriving right like there are we're going to see 2:11:50.160 --> 2:11:52.320 more of this in between now and twenty twenty four. 2:11:53.280 --> 2:11:57.920 The border is clearly an area that both parties, I guess, 2:11:58.040 --> 2:12:00.640 have decided that they can grandstand on and can show 2:12:00.720 --> 2:12:05.040 himself as being quote unquote tough on migration, Like, no, 2:12:05.160 --> 2:12:06.520 I don't want to live in a world where our 2:12:06.600 --> 2:12:09.160 leaders are tough on little babies who just walked across 2:12:09.200 --> 2:12:10.560 a desert like that's a fucked up thing to be 2:12:10.640 --> 2:12:13.000 tough on. It could be tough on corporate corruption if 2:12:13.000 --> 2:12:15.840 you want to like front up to someone. And I 2:12:15.880 --> 2:12:18.560 think the Republicans are going to push on by iten 2:12:18.640 --> 2:12:21.760 being weak on the border. There will be more migration 2:12:21.920 --> 2:12:24.080 this year than we have seen a long time because 2:12:24.800 --> 2:12:28.600 we created a backlog, right because climate change is worse 2:12:28.720 --> 2:12:32.280 every single year, and like I think, as we've documented 2:12:32.320 --> 2:12:35.560 extensively on our show, parts of the world are becoming 2:12:35.640 --> 2:12:38.400 less and less survivable. I went to the Martial Landers 2:12:38.400 --> 2:12:42.080 this summer. They are disappearing, So of course people are 2:12:42.160 --> 2:12:44.080 going to want to come to somewhere where they feel safe. 2:12:44.160 --> 2:12:46.160 There are record numbers of people crossing the Dairy and 2:12:46.240 --> 2:12:50.520 Gap right now. That is something that will result in 2:12:50.560 --> 2:12:52.400 record numbers of people showing up a border. 2:12:53.840 --> 2:12:56.960 And for every group of people who make it across 2:12:57.120 --> 2:13:00.720 the Dairy and Gap, there's folks who don't like. Taking 2:13:00.800 --> 2:13:04.120 that journey on foot without kind of access to modern 2:13:04.240 --> 2:13:08.600 quality overlanding equipment is like putting a bullet in a 2:13:08.680 --> 2:13:11.080 revolver and playing a game of Russian Roulette. Like it's 2:13:11.120 --> 2:13:12.760 extremely dangerous. 2:13:12.760 --> 2:13:15.240 Yes, not to mention that you'll be preyed upon, like 2:13:15.440 --> 2:13:18.840 all the way and they talked about the trains. Actually 2:13:18.920 --> 2:13:21.000 that video as well, how the migrants control the trains 2:13:21.600 --> 2:13:24.000 fuck off? Like I have seen people who have lost 2:13:24.120 --> 2:13:28.480 limbs on trains, right like these that's an incredible jumping 2:13:28.520 --> 2:13:31.200 on a moving train. It's not an advisable form of 2:13:31.240 --> 2:13:34.840 transport and it's not a safe one. And the fact 2:13:34.880 --> 2:13:36.600 that people feel they have to take it suggests that 2:13:36.720 --> 2:13:40.320 what they are fleeing feels even less safe to them. 2:13:40.800 --> 2:13:40.960 Right. 2:13:41.800 --> 2:13:44.880 I don't have children, but like if I was to 2:13:44.960 --> 2:13:47.640 take my kids and grab onto a moving train, I 2:13:47.680 --> 2:13:49.520 would only do that if I thought that what I 2:13:49.640 --> 2:13:52.480 was fleeing was less safe than that moving train. Yeah, 2:13:52.560 --> 2:13:53.560 And to talk about the. 2:13:53.640 --> 2:13:56.960 Last resort literally, like that's how desperate you are to 2:13:57.200 --> 2:14:00.360 better situation. It's not like I don't know, it just 2:14:00.480 --> 2:14:03.360 makes me the rhet the rhetoric is all backwards about that. 2:14:04.280 --> 2:14:06.520 Yes, Like when you look at what some of these 2:14:06.560 --> 2:14:10.240 people are fleeing, right, Like on Friday, I was helping 2:14:10.600 --> 2:14:12.800 hand out water bottles and I was there was a 2:14:13.160 --> 2:14:15.280 Punjabi man helping me, right Like he was one of 2:14:15.320 --> 2:14:19.839 the volunteers who who was like helping us to distribute 2:14:19.880 --> 2:14:22.240 food and helping us to communicate with people in the 2:14:22.280 --> 2:14:25.280 language they could understand. Very nice guy. And I was 2:14:25.320 --> 2:14:28.760 thinking about like the stuff that's happening in India right now, 2:14:29.000 --> 2:14:31.560 right like and the way that that country is becoming 2:14:31.960 --> 2:14:35.760 increasingly like monolithic. I guess Hindu nationalists. I guess you 2:14:35.800 --> 2:14:39.720 could call it. And that's fair, right, Robert, Yeah, yeah, 2:14:39.840 --> 2:14:42.280 like mod it's not getting any safer for them there, 2:14:42.320 --> 2:14:45.160 and I've seen tons more seek people than I've ever 2:14:45.200 --> 2:14:46.280 seen at the border before. 2:14:46.840 --> 2:14:49.280 No, there was a a I mean, fuck, it's it's 2:14:49.360 --> 2:14:53.320 not necessarily safe in Canada, right where one of those 2:14:53.400 --> 2:14:54.880 guys got murdered recently. 2:14:55.000 --> 2:14:55.160 Yeah. 2:14:55.280 --> 2:14:57.000 Yeah, well they have been in America too, right, someone 2:14:57.120 --> 2:14:59.120 shut up a good water thinking it was a mosque 2:14:59.200 --> 2:15:02.440 because they fucking differentiate between different faiths and they sort 2:15:02.480 --> 2:15:02.920 of turban. 2:15:03.400 --> 2:15:05.560 Yeah, I mean in Canada, I believe it was a 2:15:05.640 --> 2:15:08.480 Sikh man who got assassinated at the behest of the 2:15:08.560 --> 2:15:14.280 Modi government. Oh wow, Jesus Christ. Yeah, Western intelligence led 2:15:14.360 --> 2:15:19.640 to Canada accusing India of SEK activists assassination. It's a 2:15:19.760 --> 2:15:22.680 fella named I just want to make sure because this 2:15:22.760 --> 2:15:24.800 is a story people should we may do some more 2:15:25.080 --> 2:15:28.600 direct coverage on this, but yeah, there was a guy 2:15:28.680 --> 2:15:33.040 named Hardeep Singh Nijar who was a Sikh separatist activist 2:15:33.160 --> 2:15:37.200 and was gunned down by two mask men in British Columbia. 2:15:38.240 --> 2:15:40.800 India denies that this was at their behest, but yeah, 2:15:40.880 --> 2:15:43.080 like this is and this is by the way, it's 2:15:43.120 --> 2:15:46.560 not just a thing that India does. Political assassinations from 2:15:46.600 --> 2:15:51.520 authoritarian directed by authoritarian countries in Western countries have become 2:15:51.560 --> 2:15:53.360 more and more common, right. A lot of this started 2:15:53.440 --> 2:15:56.879 with with what Russia was doing, the poisoning, the Scarpol 2:15:56.920 --> 2:15:59.880 poisonings and stuff. But like this is growing more calm, 2:16:00.040 --> 2:16:03.240 and is this sort of like rules based international order 2:16:03.360 --> 2:16:05.160 that I think to some extent we all kind of 2:16:05.240 --> 2:16:09.360 tricked ourselves into thinking existed increasingly breaks down. But that's 2:16:09.400 --> 2:16:11.440 all to say, there's a good reason why a lot 2:16:11.520 --> 2:16:13.400 of Sikhs might be trying to come into the US 2:16:13.600 --> 2:16:13.920 right now. 2:16:14.240 --> 2:16:16.280 Yeah, Yeah, there's a good reason why I'm seeing so 2:16:16.400 --> 2:16:19.240 many of them on the border. There's a good reason 2:16:19.240 --> 2:16:21.920 why I'm seeing a ton more people from Russia, right Yeah. 2:16:22.200 --> 2:16:24.280 And they don't want to go on record, and that's 2:16:24.360 --> 2:16:27.360 because they're very afraid, right, They've come from a totalitarian 2:16:27.440 --> 2:16:29.960 state which can hunt them down, as Robert just illustrated, 2:16:30.000 --> 2:16:33.120 anywhere in the world, and so they don't want to talk, right, 2:16:33.959 --> 2:16:36.840 I'm seeing people coming from Columbia, Hondora, Squaff and Marla. 2:16:37.080 --> 2:16:39.080 One of the things that Musk was shocked about was that, like, 2:16:39.680 --> 2:16:42.560 not all of these people in Mexican. I don't know 2:16:42.680 --> 2:16:47.440 how big he thinks Mexico is and what he believes 2:16:47.480 --> 2:16:49.959 the population of Mexico to be, but at one minute 2:16:49.959 --> 2:16:53.000 he it's two million a year. Does he think Mexico 2:16:53.160 --> 2:16:55.320 is just like dwindling and there are like eight people left? 2:16:55.560 --> 2:16:59.640 Like Mexico is a large country, but like it does 2:16:59.720 --> 2:17:03.160 not provide us with millions of migrants a year, and 2:17:04.080 --> 2:17:09.600 more of that like comically impossible narrative, right, Like whatever 2:17:09.760 --> 2:17:11.560 I mean people and people are going to believe it. 2:17:11.959 --> 2:17:13.800 It's just part of the show. 2:17:14.400 --> 2:17:16.880 Yeah, And it confirms a lot of biases that always exist. 2:17:17.080 --> 2:17:21.600 And I guess hopefully we've dismissed some of that nonsense. 2:17:21.959 --> 2:17:23.680 And I think I don't. I think people who listen 2:17:23.680 --> 2:17:25.560 to this generally have empathy anyway, But hopefully this has 2:17:25.600 --> 2:17:28.119 given you some tools to talk about this to other people. 2:17:28.560 --> 2:17:31.960 What they will say is like I'm not a big 2:17:32.040 --> 2:17:35.080 representative caller. I called my representative to help with a 2:17:35.120 --> 2:17:38.440 migration case for someone from Myanmar who asked for our help. 2:17:38.840 --> 2:17:41.920 She was useless. But maybe this is an area where 2:17:42.040 --> 2:17:46.080 like the federal government has water buffalos, right, big water containers, 2:17:46.160 --> 2:17:48.720 it has MRIs. If these were American citizens and this 2:17:48.959 --> 2:17:51.480 was a hurricane or an earthquake, that shit would be there. 2:17:51.600 --> 2:17:54.320 It's not because they don't think that they matter as much. 2:17:55.400 --> 2:17:58.040 San Diego County has declared emergency and so they can't 2:17:58.040 --> 2:18:02.560 do anything. That's complete fucking nonsense. They again, they could 2:18:02.640 --> 2:18:06.640 if these were American citizens, they would if these people 2:18:06.760 --> 2:18:09.840 were like white wealthy people living in Lahoya. They're choosing 2:18:09.959 --> 2:18:12.960 not to because they don't think it will hurt them 2:18:13.320 --> 2:18:17.640 and like it. Maybe it won't, right, But I think 2:18:17.720 --> 2:18:20.360 you can make a meaningful difference by donating your money, 2:18:20.440 --> 2:18:24.760 because the only people who are helping are the dozen 2:18:24.959 --> 2:18:28.480 or so folks right like who all convoyed out there 2:18:28.520 --> 2:18:30.400 on Friday night down a dirt road in our trucks 2:18:30.520 --> 2:18:34.200 and handed out the beans and rice and ritz crackers. 2:18:34.320 --> 2:18:37.160 But you can make a difference of your money. The 2:18:37.360 --> 2:18:40.800 border kindness links are put in the description. Again, you 2:18:40.879 --> 2:18:43.680 can also make a difference, maybe by calling your representative 2:18:43.720 --> 2:18:47.480 and shaming them, because this is a government created problem, 2:18:48.320 --> 2:18:50.280 and the government like sticking its hands up in the 2:18:50.320 --> 2:18:52.280 air and being like, oh no, what a surprise, we'd't 2:18:52.280 --> 2:18:54.480 know how to do. Yes, they knew this was coming, right, 2:18:54.520 --> 2:18:59.440 these people, many of them have walked from Colombia. We 2:18:59.520 --> 2:19:02.600 knew these people were arriving. We've been putting this off 2:19:03.200 --> 2:19:06.160 since COVID, for three years, since the start of the 2:19:06.240 --> 2:19:09.560 COVID pandemic. I should say COVID is very much alive. 2:19:10.120 --> 2:19:13.120 I've seen some people who like obviously weren't able to 2:19:13.200 --> 2:19:15.000 rap a test everyone, but there are a lot of 2:19:15.040 --> 2:19:18.440 sick people coughing right, There were people with scabies. There 2:19:18.480 --> 2:19:22.200 were people who were very unwell. That again, if you 2:19:22.280 --> 2:19:25.039 detained people in congregate settings and the only masks are 2:19:25.080 --> 2:19:27.200 the ones that we bring as volunteers, and that's going 2:19:27.240 --> 2:19:31.280 to happen, right, We'll probably get some infectious disease that 2:19:31.320 --> 2:19:33.480 they'll get to share with Even if you don't care 2:19:33.720 --> 2:19:36.800 about other people, Sure it'll come by you and the 2:19:36.879 --> 2:19:41.520 arts eventually. Right when freaking chicken gun yod, that's not 2:19:42.040 --> 2:19:44.320 vectored in that fashion, but you know, cholera or something 2:19:44.520 --> 2:19:48.680 rocks up in America. So I would urge people to 2:19:48.840 --> 2:19:53.240 do something because so few people are and the only 2:19:53.360 --> 2:19:56.120 people who are helping our mutual aid groups who are 2:19:56.200 --> 2:20:00.680 overstretched and stressed and tired and broke. And so if 2:20:00.720 --> 2:20:04.160 you can help, you should, and well, like whatever that 2:20:04.200 --> 2:20:06.080 looks like to you, if you want to volunteer, that's great. 2:20:06.440 --> 2:20:08.800 I would urge you to go through the channels that 2:20:08.879 --> 2:20:11.680 are set so you don't just show up and look 2:20:11.680 --> 2:20:12.879 at yourself or someone else. 2:20:12.760 --> 2:20:13.519 In trouble. 2:20:14.720 --> 2:20:17.959 Or just make things harder. But yeah, there are meaningful 2:20:18.000 --> 2:20:21.480 ways that people can help. Very few people are and 2:20:21.720 --> 2:20:24.560 largely I think that's because the border exists as some 2:20:24.800 --> 2:20:28.600 kind of World West fantasy for most people consuming media 2:20:28.640 --> 2:20:31.520 in America. And hopefully, yeah, if you, if you encounter 2:20:31.640 --> 2:20:34.360 someone who believes that this will help you, give you 2:20:34.400 --> 2:20:36.640 a little bit of information, a little bit of some 2:20:36.800 --> 2:20:40.000 tools to dismiss some of that stuff. 2:20:40.920 --> 2:20:46.480 Yeah, dismiss and demystify really, because it's just thingless, imaginary, 2:20:46.560 --> 2:20:48.279 big bad wolf that no one really understands. 2:20:48.920 --> 2:20:52.119 Yeah, totally, Like it's nonsense that everyone in America's a migrant. 2:20:52.320 --> 2:20:55.160 They are indigenous people here now and they always have been, 2:20:56.200 --> 2:20:59.240 but a lot of people have some kind of migration story. 2:20:59.600 --> 2:21:01.560 And like, I don't give a fuck if your great 2:21:01.600 --> 2:21:04.560 grandpa came here quote unquote legally the barriers were not 2:21:04.600 --> 2:21:06.920 in place yet. There wasn't a wall when your me 2:21:07.080 --> 2:21:11.480 mar came from wherever she came from. But like in 2:21:11.600 --> 2:21:14.840 all of our communities, like this country doesn't work with 2:21:15.000 --> 2:21:17.640 that the labor of recently arrived for migrants. And like 2:21:18.280 --> 2:21:20.840 I think, if you look at the news, I go 2:21:21.040 --> 2:21:23.760 to places where wars are happening, right, That's part of 2:21:23.840 --> 2:21:27.560 my job, so does Robert, you know. And then I 2:21:27.680 --> 2:21:31.160 see those people at the border. The reason they're here 2:21:31.280 --> 2:21:33.840 is because they're fleeing something worse, and I think, like 2:21:34.560 --> 2:21:36.720 maybe grounding it in that, I don't think anyone would 2:21:36.800 --> 2:21:39.720 want a little baby to be sleeping in there. I 2:21:39.800 --> 2:21:43.600 know some pretty conservative people who were pretty outraged by 2:21:43.680 --> 2:21:47.160 what happened in May, and it's worse now. And yeah, 2:21:47.959 --> 2:21:49.760 no one in their right mind wants a little baby 2:21:49.879 --> 2:21:52.680 to be shivering out in the desert. You know, no 2:21:52.800 --> 2:21:55.040 one in their right mind wants a mother to be 2:21:55.120 --> 2:21:57.920 breastfeeding and sleeping underneath a cardboard box because that's all 2:21:57.959 --> 2:22:01.560 she has you know, like the it's not even if 2:22:01.600 --> 2:22:03.760 you believe in it's very liberal construct to America as 2:22:03.760 --> 2:22:05.560 a welcoming nation and they shouldn't be who we are 2:22:05.600 --> 2:22:06.160 and shouldn't be. 2:22:06.160 --> 2:22:06.840 How we treat people. 2:22:06.920 --> 2:22:09.800 And if you believe that nation shouldn't exist in borders 2:22:09.800 --> 2:22:11.480 of bullshit, then no one should be treated like that, 2:22:11.680 --> 2:22:18.320 and it's on all of us to help. I guess yes, yeah, 2:22:19.600 --> 2:22:24.600 anything else, guys, No, I think that's about it. Magic. Okay, 2:22:24.800 --> 2:22:26.960 thank you for joining me for this heartwarming episode. 2:22:27.640 --> 2:22:31.080 Yeah, all right, everybody that's going to do it for 2:22:31.240 --> 2:22:35.240 us here at It could happen here until next time. 2:22:35.760 --> 2:22:56.879 You know, stuff, welcome to it could happen here. I'm 2:22:56.920 --> 2:23:00.320 Garrison Davis. This is going to be another episode which 2:23:00.440 --> 2:23:04.400 we're discussing the Defend the Forest and Stop Copcity movement 2:23:04.480 --> 2:23:09.160 in Atlanta, Georgia. This struggle has always tied together a 2:23:09.240 --> 2:23:12.360 lot of the aspects that we focus on on this show, 2:23:12.520 --> 2:23:19.320 between the collapsing climate, political escalation, and how everything just 2:23:19.360 --> 2:23:22.040 feels like it's kind of getting worse. But through that 2:23:22.280 --> 2:23:28.600 there's people who respond to this crisis of neoliberalism and 2:23:29.000 --> 2:23:31.360 band together and figure out how to sort through all 2:23:31.440 --> 2:23:34.200 of this shit and all that is continuing as the 2:23:34.280 --> 2:23:38.240 City of Atlanta and State of Georgia unveil new state 2:23:38.320 --> 2:23:42.400 repression tactics to chill any resistance to the construction of 2:23:42.560 --> 2:23:45.400 this ninety million dollar police training facility that we have 2:23:45.520 --> 2:23:48.640 covered in depth in this show the past few years. 2:23:49.360 --> 2:23:51.880 A few months ago there was another three part series 2:23:51.959 --> 2:23:55.879 about the sixth Week of Action in June, but new 2:23:55.959 --> 2:23:59.959 things have happened since then. The referendum has been submitted, 2:24:00.200 --> 2:24:02.879 so that is all in process. But the same day 2:24:03.000 --> 2:24:06.000 the construction was scheduled to begin, the State of Georgia 2:24:06.160 --> 2:24:10.200 indicted sixty one people on RICO charges. RICO is an 2:24:10.240 --> 2:24:15.000 acronym referring to the Racketeer, Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. 2:24:15.520 --> 2:24:19.760 This specific act is meant to legally target organizations, and 2:24:20.160 --> 2:24:24.480 organizations can relate to anything between you know, traditional incorporated 2:24:24.640 --> 2:24:28.560 organizations or something as loose as like a pickup basketball team, 2:24:29.040 --> 2:24:31.920 which is how the state is able to paint whole 2:24:32.000 --> 2:24:35.520 communities of people who are just connected by similar values 2:24:35.800 --> 2:24:40.600 as being a quote unquote organization. The RICO Act in practice, 2:24:40.720 --> 2:24:43.800 is basically a way to criminalize a whole community. Now 2:24:44.280 --> 2:24:47.160 I'm not a lawyer, but I do know lawyers, so 2:24:47.360 --> 2:24:50.600 for this episode, I brought on Mo Cohen, a lawyer 2:24:50.680 --> 2:24:54.640 specializing in state repression. So without further ado, here is 2:24:54.720 --> 2:24:58.960 my conversation with them. Mo, Hello, thank you for joining 2:24:59.000 --> 2:24:59.400 me today. 2:25:00.080 --> 2:25:01.279 No grab lim, It's my pleasure. 2:25:02.000 --> 2:25:06.360 So in late August, the Fulton County District Attorney and 2:25:07.120 --> 2:25:09.199 other kind of legal entities with the State of Georgia 2:25:09.600 --> 2:25:12.840 unveiled a whole bunch of RICO charges against I believe 2:25:12.920 --> 2:25:16.920 sixty one people relating to the Stop Coop City quote 2:25:16.959 --> 2:25:22.160 unquote movement. It's part of, like like I said, it's 2:25:22.200 --> 2:25:24.640 an ongoing kind of campaign of repression that we've talked 2:25:24.640 --> 2:25:26.040 about pretty in depth before. 2:25:26.920 --> 2:25:28.959 But before we get into the actual like rico. 2:25:28.920 --> 2:25:32.680 Charges, I first want to kind of talk about the 2:25:33.480 --> 2:25:36.920 raid that happened against the Atlanta Solidarity Fund earlier this year, 2:25:37.280 --> 2:25:40.360 and a whole bunch of like financial crime charges that 2:25:40.560 --> 2:25:43.520 they've been trying to use to suppress the bail fund organizing. 2:25:44.320 --> 2:25:46.680 I think we've talked about this kind of briefly on 2:25:46.800 --> 2:25:49.440 the show before, but we've never really gotten very much 2:25:49.600 --> 2:25:52.640 in depth about it, and from my perspective, a lot 2:25:52.680 --> 2:25:55.240 of these reco charges are very much related to the 2:25:55.320 --> 2:25:59.520 repression of the Solidarity Fund mode. I assume you're familiar 2:25:59.720 --> 2:26:05.240 with the Solidarity Fund raid and the charges against against 2:26:05.280 --> 2:26:07.200 the Network for Strong Communities. 2:26:07.760 --> 2:26:08.040 I am. 2:26:08.600 --> 2:26:08.840 Yeah. 2:26:09.520 --> 2:26:13.640 Do we talk a little bit about that event. I 2:26:13.680 --> 2:26:18.440 think that that happened in May of this year, I believe, so. 2:26:20.080 --> 2:26:25.120 It wasn't a huge surprise. It wasn't, in my opinion, 2:26:25.320 --> 2:26:29.880 a very well grounded or legally warranted indictment. 2:26:30.400 --> 2:26:30.600 Yeah. 2:26:31.280 --> 2:26:35.200 And certainly the way that the way that law enforcement 2:26:35.400 --> 2:26:39.439 went in to retrieve those three people who were indicted 2:26:39.680 --> 2:26:44.680 was a little extra particularly given the nature of the allegations. 2:26:45.280 --> 2:26:48.600 I think people who are accused of financial crimes don't 2:26:48.680 --> 2:26:52.280 typically get taken out with a SWAT team. But I 2:26:52.320 --> 2:26:56.480 don't think it was a huge surprise that the district 2:26:56.520 --> 2:27:03.920 attorney brought those charges, because this kind of rego indictment 2:27:04.160 --> 2:27:10.440 was anticipated. Yes, and those kinds of financial charges or 2:27:10.520 --> 2:27:15.920 allegations of financial misconduct are sort of the predicate for 2:27:16.280 --> 2:27:19.959 bringing this kind of sweeping rego indictment. 2:27:20.560 --> 2:27:20.760 Yeah. 2:27:21.520 --> 2:27:23.560 And I think like in like the weeks and months 2:27:23.640 --> 2:27:27.160 prior to the SWAT raid against the Solidarity Fund in May, 2:27:27.640 --> 2:27:31.880 people at the Solidarity Fund were basically warning that they were. 2:27:32.000 --> 2:27:35.480 They were like suspecting that they would that there would 2:27:35.480 --> 2:27:37.880 be some form of reco charges used against the movement, 2:27:38.600 --> 2:27:40.240 and everyone was kind of like preparing for that. That 2:27:40.320 --> 2:27:42.880 was definitely that was definitely talked about as like as 2:27:42.920 --> 2:27:47.200 a potential like a tactic of of suppression. You know 2:27:47.520 --> 2:27:49.560 when you say that the types of like financial crime 2:27:49.640 --> 2:27:52.800 like fraud charges that that were brought against this the 2:27:52.840 --> 2:27:57.960 sole Fund people, how they seem kind of unwarranted. That 2:27:58.160 --> 2:28:01.600 is something that the judge in the bond hearing kind 2:28:01.640 --> 2:28:06.000 of agreed with. The judge was unimpressed, Yes that I 2:28:06.120 --> 2:28:08.879 I I I I listened to the uh I listened 2:28:08.879 --> 2:28:12.040 to the hearing, and the judge is very skeptical of 2:28:12.240 --> 2:28:16.240 the prosecution's claims and basically told the prosecution like, if 2:28:16.280 --> 2:28:18.480 you like actually want this to like succeed like in 2:28:18.600 --> 2:28:21.520 actual like court, you know, once once this progresses, you're 2:28:21.640 --> 2:28:23.680 you're gonna have to have a much much stronger case 2:28:23.680 --> 2:28:26.800 because this all seems kind of like nonsense. But you 2:28:26.879 --> 2:28:29.520 know that that didn't stop the prosecutors and the uh 2:28:29.840 --> 2:28:33.640 I believe it's the Attorney General Office as well of 2:28:33.760 --> 2:28:38.200 Georgia of using using kind of some stuff from this 2:28:38.600 --> 2:28:41.080 from this raid against the Solidarity Fund and trying to 2:28:41.160 --> 2:28:44.360 kind of tie together this grand conspiracy narrative that we. 2:28:44.440 --> 2:28:47.120 Now see in this uh in this Rico indictment. 2:28:47.280 --> 2:28:50.520 So let's I guess, let's let's talk a little bit 2:28:50.520 --> 2:28:54.480 about the Rico indictment at this At this point, So, 2:28:54.640 --> 2:28:56.600 Rico is a very like scary word, right, Like this 2:28:56.720 --> 2:28:58.440 is like I feel like everyone kind of knows about 2:28:58.440 --> 2:29:01.040 like rico, like like a pop culture like it's like 2:29:01.080 --> 2:29:04.160 geist sense. But do I actually like talk about like 2:29:04.240 --> 2:29:06.800 what these types of rico charges actually are because like 2:29:07.440 --> 2:29:10.440 you know, most people, even if they charged with the crime, right, 2:29:10.480 --> 2:29:12.360 most people don't ever like have to deal with like 2:29:12.440 --> 2:29:13.680 rico as like a concept. 2:29:15.040 --> 2:29:15.440 So do it? 2:29:15.720 --> 2:29:17.400 You know, if if you're like a resident of protest 2:29:17.440 --> 2:29:20.080 to get like you know, pedestrian in roadway, there's like 2:29:20.120 --> 2:29:22.560 a litany of other kind of basic charges that cops 2:29:22.600 --> 2:29:24.879 will throw at you. Rico is a bit more serious, 2:29:25.000 --> 2:29:26.840 Like it's kind of it's kind of like a scary ordeal, 2:29:26.879 --> 2:29:29.119 you know, same thing with like the domestic terrorism charges 2:29:29.160 --> 2:29:31.800 that that that have been used the past year. 2:29:32.320 --> 2:29:36.080 So yes, what is a lot more serious. 2:29:36.720 --> 2:29:38.840 Yeah, So what exactly is rico? 2:29:40.760 --> 2:29:45.640 Rico is uh. While it was initially a federal law 2:29:45.720 --> 2:29:49.400 that was passed in an effort to target specifically organized crime, 2:29:50.280 --> 2:29:54.760 because federal prosecutors were having a difficult time prosecuting these 2:29:54.840 --> 2:29:59.880 sort of individual offenses that were being committed by dispersed 2:30:00.040 --> 2:30:04.279 groups of individuals who are all acting, maybe not in concert, 2:30:04.400 --> 2:30:09.920 but in the service of a larger criminal enterprise. There's 2:30:09.959 --> 2:30:12.840 a couple of important things that I want to say 2:30:13.600 --> 2:30:14.279 just upfront. 2:30:14.560 --> 2:30:14.800 Sure. 2:30:16.080 --> 2:30:17.840 The first thing is this is not the first time 2:30:18.280 --> 2:30:23.760 that RICO has been used against movement people. The second 2:30:23.800 --> 2:30:25.680 thing I want to say is that all prosecutions are 2:30:25.720 --> 2:30:31.760 political prosecutions, and RICO is no different. Although federal RICO 2:30:32.280 --> 2:30:37.800 and ostensibly Georgia State RICO were developed and passed in 2:30:37.879 --> 2:30:41.840 an effort to target organized crime, that is not how 2:30:41.879 --> 2:30:46.520 they've been primarily used. And I think it is really 2:30:46.640 --> 2:30:52.320 significant to note that after a lot of the people 2:30:52.400 --> 2:30:55.440 of color solidarity movements like the Black Panthers, the Black 2:30:55.520 --> 2:30:59.520 Liberation Army, AIM, the Brown Berets, the Young Lords, these 2:30:59.600 --> 2:31:04.560 groups were all really weakened by Cohen Telpro and the 2:31:04.640 --> 2:31:09.480 community groups that remained were then labeled as gangs and 2:31:09.640 --> 2:31:16.120 prosecuted under RICO and so I just you know, everything 2:31:16.440 --> 2:31:19.880 that happens in this conversation, we have to sort of 2:31:20.360 --> 2:31:24.720 hold in our minds that this particular movement is not 2:31:24.959 --> 2:31:28.120 the first movement and not the first community who has 2:31:28.280 --> 2:31:34.040 had rego leveled against it as a form of state repression. 2:31:34.800 --> 2:31:38.600 Yeah, and specifically Fultland County. It looks like the the 2:31:38.640 --> 2:31:41.960 batche of indictments that we're using these reco charges. It 2:31:42.080 --> 2:31:45.160 looks like this was at least according to the to 2:31:45.280 --> 2:31:48.480 the Atlantic Constitution Journal people this this was the same 2:31:48.560 --> 2:31:52.199 grand jury that did the ricodictments against former President Donald 2:31:52.240 --> 2:31:55.240 Trump as well for this, for this, for this batch 2:31:55.280 --> 2:31:58.360 of charges. And they've used they've used reco charges against 2:31:58.480 --> 2:32:01.480 like young black wrappers in the past. This is a 2:32:02.400 --> 2:32:05.920 thing that the Fulton County Office has has done before. Yes, 2:32:06.560 --> 2:32:08.200 and as like we have like Rico's this is like 2:32:08.200 --> 2:32:11.160 a criminal racketeering thing against the mob. In terms of 2:32:11.240 --> 2:32:13.840 like what RICO actually is, Like is it its own 2:32:13.959 --> 2:32:16.480 separate charge or is it like is it a way 2:32:16.520 --> 2:32:19.280 to like apply other felony charges, Like you know, can 2:32:19.480 --> 2:32:21.879 can you just be charged with RICO or is there 2:32:21.920 --> 2:32:24.160 have to be like other other crimes that you're accused 2:32:24.200 --> 2:32:26.280 of for them to actually like use this use this 2:32:26.400 --> 2:32:27.600 charge against these activists. 2:32:28.400 --> 2:32:33.240 RICO is its own criminal offense, but it relies upon 2:32:33.360 --> 2:32:37.680 there having been other criminal offenses committed in the service 2:32:38.320 --> 2:32:42.880 of a larger criminal enterprise or a conspiracy to try 2:32:43.440 --> 2:32:46.640 to do crimes in the service of a larger criminal enterprise. 2:32:47.160 --> 2:32:49.400 And one of the reasons that it is. 2:32:49.920 --> 2:32:53.760 So broad in sweep, I mean, federal RICO is already 2:32:54.040 --> 2:32:57.760 very broad in SWEEP and Georgia Rica in particular is 2:32:57.840 --> 2:33:00.520 notorious for being even broader. 2:33:02.480 --> 2:33:05.760 One of the reasons it is so attractive to prosecutors 2:33:05.920 --> 2:33:10.640 is precisely because it can capture these large groups of 2:33:10.800 --> 2:33:16.199 people with very little actual criminal conduct. 2:33:18.320 --> 2:33:20.720 Okay, so yeah, that's kind of one of the things 2:33:20.760 --> 2:33:23.440 that we want to talk about is I read the 2:33:23.480 --> 2:33:26.120 indictment as soon as it came out, as soon as 2:33:26.200 --> 2:33:29.760 it was made public. It is it is a long document. 2:33:30.320 --> 2:33:34.279 The first patch of it is just like it's almost 2:33:34.320 --> 2:33:37.160 like a really bad like Wikipedia article on like like 2:33:37.280 --> 2:33:41.320 what anarchism is is how it is. How the document starts, 2:33:42.560 --> 2:33:46.080 and then it gets into all these like alleged alleged 2:33:46.160 --> 2:33:49.520 like offenses that are not necessarily criminal nature, but they're 2:33:49.560 --> 2:33:53.000 all in the service of pushing forward this conspiracy to 2:33:53.120 --> 2:33:56.400 stop the construction of this police training facility. So there's 2:33:56.400 --> 2:33:59.359 a lot of like kind of like a like random 2:33:59.400 --> 2:34:01.160 almost asked and I and stuff in there that that 2:34:01.280 --> 2:34:04.440 they're that they're eluding is is a quote unquote an 2:34:04.480 --> 2:34:08.520 overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. You know, anything 2:34:08.600 --> 2:34:11.720 from like buying glue or buying like food supplies, and 2:34:11.760 --> 2:34:15.680 they're they're including or or things like like like writing 2:34:15.720 --> 2:34:16.359 your name. 2:34:16.280 --> 2:34:17.200 As A C, A, B. 2:34:17.440 --> 2:34:19.320 They're they're they're including that as as as as an 2:34:19.480 --> 2:34:22.200 as an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy, which 2:34:22.680 --> 2:34:25.280 is kind of silly, it doesn't make very much sense. 2:34:25.360 --> 2:34:26.880 But like these also these is this is like a 2:34:27.000 --> 2:34:28.960 very serious case as well though, because this is like 2:34:29.120 --> 2:34:31.640 you know, the people people, you know, facing twenty years 2:34:31.680 --> 2:34:35.760 in prison on top of like the domestic terrorism charges. Well, uh, 2:34:36.040 --> 2:34:38.480 do you know what else is a overt act in 2:34:38.520 --> 2:34:41.640 furtherance of a conspiracy? It is the the uh, the 2:34:41.720 --> 2:34:44.840 advertising that allows us to continue this show. It's all, 2:34:44.959 --> 2:34:47.720 it's all, it's all all part of the plan. So yes, 2:34:47.800 --> 2:34:52.200 every every single ad is a co conspirator. So take that, uh, 2:34:53.000 --> 2:34:57.000 Ronald Reikan coin. Okay, we are we are back. We 2:34:57.040 --> 2:34:58.840 could talk about a bit more about the actual indictment, 2:34:58.959 --> 2:35:00.960 uh in a sec I do kind of want to 2:35:01.000 --> 2:35:03.720 first talk about who are facing these charges, right, because 2:35:03.720 --> 2:35:06.400 these are these are sixty one people, and it looks 2:35:06.520 --> 2:35:09.840 like for when I was looking through, one of the 2:35:09.920 --> 2:35:12.480 first things that you noticed is like, oh, they're mostly 2:35:12.600 --> 2:35:16.600 charging people who have already been charged before. There's not 2:35:16.760 --> 2:35:19.320 so many new people added to this case. It's mostly 2:35:19.560 --> 2:35:22.440 people who've already been arrested and charged. Can you kind 2:35:22.480 --> 2:35:24.720 of like talk about the scope of these sixty one 2:35:24.760 --> 2:35:26.880 people who are included in this indictment. 2:35:27.920 --> 2:35:32.199 Yes, so, as I was saying, the scope of Georgia 2:35:32.280 --> 2:35:36.520 Rico is extremely broad, and some of the criminal acts 2:35:36.600 --> 2:35:40.960 that can serve as a predicate for charging Rico are 2:35:41.000 --> 2:35:46.320 these extremely unremarkable acts that we would typically think of 2:35:47.000 --> 2:35:52.240 as being very normal protest related behavior, and some of 2:35:52.360 --> 2:35:55.480 them are things like domestic terrorism. And so I don't 2:35:55.520 --> 2:36:00.440 think it is an accident that all of those people 2:36:00.560 --> 2:36:05.240 were charged with domestic terrorism in the beginning months of 2:36:05.360 --> 2:36:11.920 this of this sort of push to overcharge the stock 2:36:11.959 --> 2:36:14.720 Cup City activists, And in fact, I think one of 2:36:14.760 --> 2:36:17.240 the things that tipped us off at that point that 2:36:17.440 --> 2:36:22.240 Rico was in the pipeline was that people were being 2:36:22.360 --> 2:36:25.120 charged with domestic terrorism, which is one of the predicate 2:36:25.160 --> 2:36:29.000 offenses for Rico, and so many of the people who 2:36:29.240 --> 2:36:31.800 are on this indictment are the people who are already 2:36:31.879 --> 2:36:36.560 charged with domestic terrorism. They were overcharged with domestic terrorism. 2:36:36.640 --> 2:36:41.640 In my opinion, they were overcharged. I think the opinion 2:36:41.680 --> 2:36:47.600 of most attorneys. They were overcharged. They were charged in 2:36:47.720 --> 2:36:51.760 that manner, not because the allegations against them are serious. 2:36:51.840 --> 2:36:54.480 In fact, if you look at the allegations in those 2:36:54.520 --> 2:36:58.960 domestic terrorism indictments or they're not even indictments yet, most 2:36:59.000 --> 2:37:05.440 of them in those domestic terrorism charges, in the documents 2:37:05.560 --> 2:37:11.160 that are associated with those arrests, the allegations are, you know, 2:37:11.280 --> 2:37:15.000 as I said, these absolutely unremarkable, garden variety sort of 2:37:15.080 --> 2:37:20.200 criminal trespass allegations, by and large, the allegations against people, 2:37:20.240 --> 2:37:23.360 and they include things that are absolutely lawful, like having 2:37:23.560 --> 2:37:27.960 mud on your like having on your knees. Yes, yeah, 2:37:28.080 --> 2:37:30.400 so a lot of the allegations. One of the things 2:37:30.440 --> 2:37:34.720 that's remarkable about Rico, and frankly about the domestic terrorism stuff, 2:37:35.160 --> 2:37:40.440 is that both of those statutes allow for the sort 2:37:40.480 --> 2:37:46.199 of bootstrapping of one offense into a much more serious 2:37:46.280 --> 2:37:51.480 offense if certain conditions are met with respect to the 2:37:51.520 --> 2:37:59.359 domestic terrorism Statute. A very large number of garden variety 2:37:59.640 --> 2:38:04.840 offens is like criminal trespassing, can be transformed into domestic 2:38:05.000 --> 2:38:09.040 terrorism if they are perceived to be essentially politically motivated. 2:38:10.120 --> 2:38:12.560 In the case of So, what we have here is 2:38:13.000 --> 2:38:15.120 a situation where a bunch of people got charged with 2:38:15.200 --> 2:38:20.000 domestic terrorism, not because they were doing something really dramatic 2:38:20.160 --> 2:38:22.760 or violent, but because whatever it was they were doing 2:38:22.959 --> 2:38:27.480 was perceived as being an effort to influence public policy. 2:38:27.920 --> 2:38:32.320 So we transformed a very minor offense into a very 2:38:32.400 --> 2:38:37.160 serious offense. That serious offense then became the predicate offense 2:38:37.600 --> 2:38:40.960 for Rico, which is an even more serious offense. 2:38:41.560 --> 2:38:44.040 Yeah, And from my understanding at least in terms of 2:38:44.879 --> 2:38:46.920 a lot of the people in the sixty one indictments 2:38:46.959 --> 2:38:51.640 are the Sexton One people in the indictment is from 2:38:51.680 --> 2:38:54.360 the arrests that happened at the music festival last Menstrue, 2:38:54.920 --> 2:38:58.560 and a lot of these people were only charged with 2:38:58.800 --> 2:39:02.320 domestic terrorism, which is interesting because usually domestic terrorism in 2:39:02.320 --> 2:39:05.920 Georgia is like an enhancement charge, but lots of the 2:39:06.000 --> 2:39:08.160 people weren't actually charged with any of the other other 2:39:08.320 --> 2:39:11.520 charges yet the prosecutors just argued, because we're charging with 2:39:11.520 --> 2:39:14.120 the domestic terrorism, it's like inferred that they must have 2:39:14.200 --> 2:39:17.000 done some other crimes that we haven't yet specified. But 2:39:17.640 --> 2:39:20.279 in the way that works for the for the Rico indictments, 2:39:20.360 --> 2:39:21.960 because I think you need to have already had like 2:39:22.280 --> 2:39:24.920 like I think there's like a prerequisitive like two other 2:39:25.040 --> 2:39:29.040 like felonious charges. What they did in the in these 2:39:29.080 --> 2:39:31.840 reco charges is go back to the music festival and 2:39:32.000 --> 2:39:35.280 break down every single thing that happened there that they're 2:39:35.320 --> 2:39:38.920 alleging these people did as separate instances like like planning 2:39:39.000 --> 2:39:41.440 to go to the place, you know, marching to the place, 2:39:41.600 --> 2:39:43.480 being at the place, Like they broke it down to 2:39:43.720 --> 2:39:46.040 have all these separate things so that they could like 2:39:46.320 --> 2:39:49.920 shoehorn it into this Rico indictment. So there's a lot 2:39:49.920 --> 2:39:52.560 of like a you know, revisionist history going on here, 2:39:53.000 --> 2:39:55.800 very kind of different arguments than what the actual like 2:39:55.840 --> 2:40:00.400 domestic terrorism of bond hearings had in like a previous months. 2:40:01.920 --> 2:40:05.600 But yeah, there is at least at least one. 2:40:05.480 --> 2:40:08.400 Person in the indictments who is newly I think I 2:40:08.520 --> 2:40:11.720 I think possibly a few others, but I haven't quite checked, 2:40:11.760 --> 2:40:13.880 but there at least one person, which is a very 2:40:13.920 --> 2:40:16.800 interesting case. It's this, it's this guy who worked at 2:40:17.000 --> 2:40:20.560 the uh the Flock camera company who I saw that 2:40:20.920 --> 2:40:25.800 who they are alleging was was passing off information about 2:40:25.879 --> 2:40:30.920 where cameras were were we're located. And this is an 2:40:31.200 --> 2:40:33.640 extremely interesting case because he is he is not included 2:40:33.680 --> 2:40:37.120 in any other previous charges, but that is at least 2:40:37.200 --> 2:40:39.600 one of the people who who are kind of new 2:40:39.640 --> 2:40:42.320 additions to this indictment. One thing I didn't want to 2:40:42.360 --> 2:40:44.800 mention because you've you've said, you've you've kind of mentioned 2:40:44.800 --> 2:40:47.080 a few times that these are these are state level 2:40:47.120 --> 2:40:50.279 reco charges. Those are kind of different than federal reco charges. 2:40:51.320 --> 2:40:52.520 Do you want to kind of get into like the 2:40:52.600 --> 2:40:55.440 difference between state and federal charges and specifically how kind 2:40:55.480 --> 2:40:59.040 of the ones in Georgia work versus the the the 2:40:59.120 --> 2:41:02.959 federal rego that you know, kind of inspired different states 2:41:03.000 --> 2:41:05.640 to kind of add their own style of rico. 2:41:06.520 --> 2:41:11.920 The big difference between the federal RICO statute, which is 2:41:12.040 --> 2:41:16.600 already extremely vague. I think Scalia said something like Scalia, 2:41:16.920 --> 2:41:24.920 who is notoriously not far left activist. Right, I'm not 2:41:25.040 --> 2:41:31.240 a supporter of leftists in any meaningful way. I think 2:41:31.320 --> 2:41:35.720 described the federal Rico Statute I think is intolerably vague. 2:41:36.280 --> 2:41:40.720 So the Federal Rico Statute is already very broad in 2:41:40.840 --> 2:41:44.120 its scope. It already does this thing that we were 2:41:44.160 --> 2:41:49.560 discussing of pulling in many, many people by associating them with, 2:41:50.080 --> 2:41:55.000 you know, this criminal enterprise. The Georgia Ricos Statute is 2:41:55.240 --> 2:41:59.119 even more broad. The Georgia Ricos Statute uses a lot 2:41:59.160 --> 2:42:04.600 of the same terms, right, a pattern of racketeering activity. Right, 2:42:05.560 --> 2:42:08.320 It uses a lot of the same concepts, but it 2:42:08.400 --> 2:42:12.200 defines those concepts in ways that are even broader, even 2:42:12.320 --> 2:42:15.360 easier to apply. So I think the thing that is 2:42:15.440 --> 2:42:20.440 significant about Rico is that, similar to like what we 2:42:20.520 --> 2:42:27.959 would see with conspiracy, where you know, not every person 2:42:28.120 --> 2:42:33.560 involved in a conspiracy needs to have been participating in 2:42:33.800 --> 2:42:38.120 every single criminal instance of criminal conduct in order to 2:42:38.720 --> 2:42:39.960 be implicated. 2:42:40.520 --> 2:42:42.760 They don't even need to like know the other co 2:42:42.920 --> 2:42:44.160 conspirators necessarily. 2:42:44.480 --> 2:42:48.560 So that's the case in this indictment. Yes, yes, And 2:42:48.720 --> 2:42:52.600 that is sometimes the case with maybe other reco indictments. 2:42:52.640 --> 2:42:55.920 We certainly have seen some stuff like gang prosecutions where 2:42:56.600 --> 2:43:02.200 the people involved don't know each other. Typically, I wouldn't 2:43:02.320 --> 2:43:06.560 actually expect to see something that broad. When a prosecutor 2:43:06.600 --> 2:43:10.760 wants to indict someone for engaging in criminal conduct, they 2:43:10.840 --> 2:43:17.240 need to have individualized probable cause that that individual did 2:43:17.520 --> 2:43:22.400 the crime one of the things, and you can't attribute 2:43:22.720 --> 2:43:29.200 one person's behavior to another person. Rico offers a way 2:43:29.280 --> 2:43:34.240 around that. To use Rico in the way that the 2:43:34.440 --> 2:43:40.640 prosecutors in Georgia are doing, among other things, enables them 2:43:40.840 --> 2:43:44.320 to engage in a sort of collective punishment of people 2:43:44.440 --> 2:43:52.240 who they perceive as holding certain ideologies. And those people 2:43:52.360 --> 2:43:56.680 can be engaged in lawful behavior and even in constitutionally 2:43:56.720 --> 2:44:01.480 protected behavior, but if they can and characterize any of 2:44:01.560 --> 2:44:04.959 that behavior as having been an overt act in furtherance 2:44:05.040 --> 2:44:09.200 of the conspiracy, the fact that this person bought glue 2:44:11.720 --> 2:44:17.760 and was reimbursed for the glue, yeah, can function to 2:44:17.879 --> 2:44:21.959 allow the prosecutor to attribute all of this other criminal 2:44:22.120 --> 2:44:24.560 conduct to the person who bought glue. 2:44:25.200 --> 2:44:29.800 Basically, there, people can you know, be hit with charges 2:44:30.320 --> 2:44:33.880 that are being you know, alleged against actions of other people, 2:44:34.040 --> 2:44:35.879 but they're all getting like roped up together and they're 2:44:35.920 --> 2:44:38.959 all facing these charges together, that's right. 2:44:39.120 --> 2:44:41.960 So you can like, the allegation that there is a 2:44:42.120 --> 2:44:51.000 criminal enterprise allows the prosecutors to associate various people and 2:44:51.200 --> 2:44:59.080 various acts, even lawful acts, even constitutionally protected acts, with 2:44:59.680 --> 2:45:04.920 a tempting to further that criminal enterprise. And so the 2:45:05.080 --> 2:45:10.640 allegation that this criminal enterprise exists is the fundamental core 2:45:11.480 --> 2:45:18.120 of this indictment. Now you read the indictment and it's 2:45:18.879 --> 2:45:23.760 you know, it's laughable. They're making these claims that, you know, 2:45:23.840 --> 2:45:28.280 if it weren't so serious, if this weren't so serious, 2:45:28.360 --> 2:45:30.920 we'd all be rolling on the floor. The idea that 2:45:31.120 --> 2:45:37.960 mutual aid is sinister. It really to me when I 2:45:38.040 --> 2:45:41.040 read this indictment, I thought, wow, this is just fascinating, 2:45:41.120 --> 2:45:44.440 because what's happening here is that Georgia is saying the 2:45:44.560 --> 2:45:48.960 quiet part out loud. We all know state repression is real. 2:45:49.080 --> 2:45:54.320 We all know that the American legal system functions to 2:45:55.360 --> 2:46:00.120 repressed assent, to impose prior restraints on first amend and 2:46:00.280 --> 2:46:06.000 protected behavior, to chill speech, to frighten people into submission. Right, 2:46:06.120 --> 2:46:10.200 we understand that it is this coercive system, but there 2:46:10.360 --> 2:46:14.160 is at least a sort of set of rules that 2:46:14.560 --> 2:46:21.600 purport to prioritize fairness, that purport to value concepts of 2:46:21.720 --> 2:46:25.120 due process, and the Rico Statute, and in particular, the 2:46:25.160 --> 2:46:31.440 Reco Statute as it is being used here, really functions 2:46:31.520 --> 2:46:36.040 so explicitly to circumvent those rules that we can that 2:46:36.120 --> 2:46:39.080 they're just they're not even trying anymore. They're not even 2:46:39.200 --> 2:46:44.039 trying to pretend that they care about individual probable cause, 2:46:44.640 --> 2:46:47.720 about the First Amendment, and I would say, most frighteningly 2:46:47.760 --> 2:46:50.880 about the sixth Amendment, which is the right to counsel, 2:46:51.640 --> 2:46:56.920 because they have gone way beyond the pale in alleging 2:46:57.879 --> 2:47:03.560 that things like accessing legal help, or accessing bail, or 2:47:03.760 --> 2:47:10.480 having legal observers or you know, providing anti repression trainings 2:47:11.360 --> 2:47:16.519 are in some manner sinister acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. 2:47:16.640 --> 2:47:19.800 And I am really I don't know what will happen here. 2:47:20.840 --> 2:47:25.520 I really can't begin to guess, because I feel like 2:47:25.879 --> 2:47:29.240 it is no longer possible for me to be surprised 2:47:29.959 --> 2:47:33.640 by the nonsense that is coming out of this jurisdiction. 2:47:36.000 --> 2:47:39.400 I don't know what will happen, but I am very, 2:47:40.040 --> 2:47:45.880 very curious to see how the bench, how the judges 2:47:46.120 --> 2:47:55.720 in Georgia respond to these allegations that involve making it 2:47:56.720 --> 2:48:03.760 part of a criminal conspiracy to prove legal assistance. You know, 2:48:03.920 --> 2:48:06.720 this is to me like one of the most concerning 2:48:06.879 --> 2:48:11.840 aspects of this of this indictment, because as absurd as 2:48:11.920 --> 2:48:14.800 it is, this could have very serious consequences. 2:48:15.720 --> 2:48:17.600 Yeah, I mean, that's something people have been talking about 2:48:17.720 --> 2:48:21.120 with Atlanta for a while now. Is that because of 2:48:21.200 --> 2:48:23.800 how many you know, criminal cases there is around the 2:48:24.200 --> 2:48:27.760 top top city of like movement, whatever kind of the 2:48:27.840 --> 2:48:29.920 result of those cases is going to be is going 2:48:30.000 --> 2:48:34.039 to set a very influential precedent for future for future 2:48:34.160 --> 2:48:37.760 kind of eco defense campaigns, future like any anything relating 2:48:37.800 --> 2:48:42.000 to like like civil rights, you know, uh, police abolition, 2:48:42.240 --> 2:48:44.600 or even even even things it's like benign is like 2:48:44.640 --> 2:48:48.280 police reform, like any any kind of like any kind 2:48:48.320 --> 2:48:51.360 of like grassroots activist, whatever kind of movement that's going 2:48:51.440 --> 2:48:53.279 to happen in the future is going to be affected 2:48:53.320 --> 2:48:57.240 by how these cases go. Because not only is you know, 2:48:57.400 --> 2:49:00.440 as as you mentioned, the you know, Act to Bail 2:49:00.520 --> 2:49:03.000 Fund being being in like access to to to lawyers 2:49:03.040 --> 2:49:05.760 and so and legal support is being used in these 2:49:06.040 --> 2:49:09.600 reco charges, they were also alleging that by having a 2:49:09.720 --> 2:49:12.240 you know, a bail fund number on your arm, that 2:49:12.480 --> 2:49:14.680 was like, you know, that was evidence that that that's 2:49:14.680 --> 2:49:17.840 that this person intended to do crimes. And then you know, 2:49:17.920 --> 2:49:20.720 as as evident in support of these domestic terrorism charges, 2:49:21.040 --> 2:49:24.040 which is you know, an extremely dangerously legal claim to 2:49:24.480 --> 2:49:27.120 to to be to be talking about. And we've been 2:49:27.160 --> 2:49:29.240 dealing with that in Atlanta for months now, and it's 2:49:29.240 --> 2:49:31.840 you know, it's created this really chilling effect on the 2:49:31.959 --> 2:49:34.560 ground that you know, you can you can be you know, 2:49:35.000 --> 2:49:37.200 doing something as simple as marching in the street and 2:49:37.400 --> 2:49:40.240 now have not only to like terrorism charges, having reco 2:49:40.360 --> 2:49:44.240 charges for stuff that is very clearly like First Amendment activity. 2:49:45.280 --> 2:49:50.840 Yeah, I think it is really fascinating to me that 2:49:51.959 --> 2:49:59.440 the law enforcement apparatus in Georgia is basically engaging and 2:49:59.680 --> 2:50:05.680 really concerted state repression against this movement, which is highly 2:50:05.840 --> 2:50:11.039 visible and highly legible as state repression. And then when 2:50:11.120 --> 2:50:15.800 people respond appropriately by anticipating that they may be subject 2:50:16.000 --> 2:50:21.480 to state repression by writing the jail support number on 2:50:21.560 --> 2:50:25.080 their arm, not because they believe that they intend to 2:50:25.200 --> 2:50:27.680 go out and do crimes, but because they know that 2:50:28.959 --> 2:50:33.600 unremarkable acts of First Amendment protected conduct may result in 2:50:33.920 --> 2:50:41.400 intense state repression. The law enforcement apparatus then responds by 2:50:41.720 --> 2:50:46.520 rationalizing their repression further. I mean, it's just we can 2:50:46.800 --> 2:50:50.600 see the sort of post hoc fallacy at work in 2:50:50.760 --> 2:50:57.160 real time. It's not clear to me how much of 2:50:57.240 --> 2:51:01.880 the hypocrisy is self aware. Sure, you know who else 2:51:01.920 --> 2:51:02.920 doesn't talk to cops? 2:51:04.680 --> 2:51:07.640 Product? I cannot guarantee that. 2:51:07.760 --> 2:51:10.920 I'm not sure these companies have the same. 2:51:10.840 --> 2:51:12.560 Standards that you and I have. 2:51:12.879 --> 2:51:14.519 They don't have shared values. 2:51:14.640 --> 2:51:19.560 In terms of our willingness to to to talk with 2:51:19.640 --> 2:51:20.240 the police. 2:51:21.440 --> 2:51:24.560 But they probably has good defense lawyers. 2:51:25.280 --> 2:51:27.680 Oh yes, all of all of these products and services 2:51:27.959 --> 2:51:30.640 that support this podcast definitely do have good defense lawyers. 2:51:30.640 --> 2:51:31.080 That is true. 2:51:31.200 --> 2:51:33.879 So listen, listen to their important messages. 2:51:35.200 --> 2:51:38.200 There is actually a part of this indictment that I 2:51:38.240 --> 2:51:42.400 think deserves some very serious attention. 2:51:42.879 --> 2:51:44.680 Yeah. Absolutely So. 2:51:46.160 --> 2:51:50.280 Typically when we're thinking about RICO, we're thinking about like 2:51:50.400 --> 2:51:55.000 white collar crime, and we're thinking about the use of 2:51:55.560 --> 2:51:59.120 GO to target groups that are doing unlawful things in 2:51:59.440 --> 2:52:08.040 order to profit. This indictment seems to allege that stop 2:52:08.160 --> 2:52:12.640 Coop City activists are raising money to do crime, which 2:52:12.680 --> 2:52:17.520 is sort of the opposite right, and as as we said, 2:52:17.920 --> 2:52:22.920 the crime that they're alleging, by and large is really petty. 2:52:24.879 --> 2:52:29.840 And there does seem to be one major act of 2:52:29.920 --> 2:52:35.280 violence that is alleged in this indictment, and I think 2:52:35.320 --> 2:52:38.560 we need to talk about it for a second because 2:52:38.640 --> 2:52:43.400 that one alleged act of violence involves the claim that 2:52:43.640 --> 2:52:49.480 Manuel torteguita Tehran who was murdered by police, was firing 2:52:49.640 --> 2:52:54.880 upon officers, and that is an incredibly central claim in 2:52:55.000 --> 2:52:58.200 this indictment. That really is I think the hook on 2:52:58.320 --> 2:53:06.920 which they're hanging a lot of the seriousness of the allegations, 2:53:07.600 --> 2:53:11.080 and it is an incredibly disingenuous claim and it's an 2:53:11.160 --> 2:53:17.160 incredibly dangerous claim. The evidence that they're using to support 2:53:17.240 --> 2:53:19.840 that claim is the statement of a third party who 2:53:20.000 --> 2:53:25.720 was not present. It's a regrettable statement that they've dug 2:53:25.840 --> 2:53:31.320 up from some group balance you know, you know, thousands 2:53:31.360 --> 2:53:35.360 of miles away from the Atlanta Forest and there's no 2:53:35.560 --> 2:53:40.720 reason to credit that statement, but they are using it 2:53:41.520 --> 2:53:45.920 to support this claim. That is, as I said, it's 2:53:46.560 --> 2:53:51.959 it's critical to their argument, and it is extremely disingenuous 2:53:52.080 --> 2:53:59.160 and it's extremely dangerous for for the office of a 2:53:59.280 --> 2:54:02.680 prosecutor which you know, for what it's worth, is supposed 2:54:02.680 --> 2:54:07.640 to pursue justice and not convictions. It is just intolerable 2:54:07.800 --> 2:54:12.760 to me that that somebody thought this was an acceptable 2:54:12.879 --> 2:54:15.359 thing to put into a legal document. 2:54:16.040 --> 2:54:17.840 And like you you were talking about how you know, 2:54:17.920 --> 2:54:21.920 they're using statements from the scenes dot no Block subsite, 2:54:21.920 --> 2:54:24.400 which anyone can submit to. There's no barrier of evidence 2:54:24.520 --> 2:54:28.480 for submitting to. And one interesting aspect that I didn't 2:54:28.480 --> 2:54:30.560 want to mention is that for many of the kind 2:54:30.600 --> 2:54:32.840 of the little like you know, accounts that they that 2:54:32.920 --> 2:54:36.640 they have in their indictment, it's it's just referencing people, 2:54:36.800 --> 2:54:40.000 you know, claiming that they did crimes on on on 2:54:40.120 --> 2:54:43.680 this website. But they're they're attributing the the either like 2:54:43.840 --> 2:54:46.480 co authorship of these claims to the people at the 2:54:46.480 --> 2:54:50.560 Solidary count, which they've laid out no evidence in supporting that. 2:54:50.640 --> 2:54:53.120 That's it's it's one of the more bizarre aspects of 2:54:53.400 --> 2:54:57.119 this indictment because they make every they claim that every 2:54:57.200 --> 2:55:00.680 single post on scenes is somehow the solid Different people 2:55:00.720 --> 2:55:05.680 are in part responsible for it, which is absolutely absurd 2:55:05.760 --> 2:55:09.240 that there's there's They've they've produced nothing, no piece of 2:55:09.280 --> 2:55:11.560 evidence in support of this claim. But that is one 2:55:11.560 --> 2:55:13.920 of the core parts of their indictment because much much 2:55:13.959 --> 2:55:15.920 of what they're filling this indictment with, you know, they're 2:55:15.920 --> 2:55:18.160 talking about how there's people do you know, doing crimes 2:55:18.200 --> 2:55:22.840 in San Francisco, in in Portland, in like Minneapolis, like 2:55:22.879 --> 2:55:26.120 all across like in New York, all across the country. Right, 2:55:26.160 --> 2:55:29.040 this is part of like the criminal conspiracy angle, which 2:55:29.040 --> 2:55:31.160 were very clearly from my perspective, this is, you know, 2:55:31.760 --> 2:55:34.160 people all across the country who care about a cause, 2:55:34.200 --> 2:55:36.080 and so they're doing something in their own city. It's 2:55:36.080 --> 2:55:37.840 there's there's no there's no conspiracy to it. It's it's 2:55:37.840 --> 2:55:41.760 people taking their own individual action. But they're they're trying, 2:55:41.800 --> 2:55:44.440 they're trying to tie this into the solidarity fund in 2:55:44.520 --> 2:55:47.520 a very bizarre way. You know, I'll be. 2:55:47.600 --> 2:55:49.400 Curious to see if they ever try to produce evidence 2:55:49.680 --> 2:55:52.080 to support that claim in court. But it's it's it's 2:55:52.120 --> 2:55:53.920 so laughable on the face. So you're like, how can 2:55:54.240 --> 2:55:56.600 how can three people with with a bail fund be 2:55:57.240 --> 2:56:01.040 be connected to these direct actions happening all across the country. 2:56:01.800 --> 2:56:06.680 Well, that's not literally what they're claiming, though, right, And 2:56:07.120 --> 2:56:10.800 I think this is this is where we see this 2:56:10.959 --> 2:56:15.959 difference of perspective mattering a lot. The kind of distributed 2:56:17.280 --> 2:56:25.560 network of autonomous solidarity that exists in this instance is 2:56:25.640 --> 2:56:31.880 something that is totally foreign two people who are very 2:56:32.000 --> 2:56:35.200 used to having hierarchy in their lives. And you know, 2:56:35.240 --> 2:56:38.800 I think i've I've talked about this before, I think 2:56:38.879 --> 2:56:43.560 on this show about the fact that when the far 2:56:43.760 --> 2:56:48.240 right organizes, they organize in ways that are familiar to 2:56:48.959 --> 2:56:52.920 police and prosecutors. Right. They organize in these very martial, 2:56:53.280 --> 2:56:57.039 hierarchical ways where there's a clear chain of command. Now, 2:56:58.000 --> 2:57:00.959 often their chain of command is very still and involves 2:57:01.240 --> 2:57:06.200 people having titles like dragons and wizards. But it's legible, right, 2:57:06.360 --> 2:57:10.959 It's legible to law enforcement. They understand there's someone in charge, 2:57:10.959 --> 2:57:13.039 and there's someone who answers to the person in charge. 2:57:14.280 --> 2:57:19.840 Having a situation where we have a website that is unmoderated, 2:57:21.120 --> 2:57:27.160 hosted by or supported by some group and totally open 2:57:28.160 --> 2:57:32.400 is something that I think, you know, police and prosecutors 2:57:32.480 --> 2:57:36.360 might have a little bit of difficulty understanding, right, because 2:57:36.400 --> 2:57:40.120 it's inconceivable to them that there is not a hierarchy, 2:57:40.200 --> 2:57:43.800 that there's not a chain of command. It's like, you know, 2:57:43.879 --> 2:57:47.760 I've actually had to drop footnotes in federal court filings 2:57:48.240 --> 2:57:52.000 to explain to judges and to explain to opposing counsel 2:57:52.720 --> 2:57:56.600 that Antifa is like a set of practices and not 2:57:56.879 --> 2:58:02.040 a membership organization. Yes, right, and that trying to trying 2:58:02.160 --> 2:58:07.200 to address Antifa as though it were an organization is 2:58:07.640 --> 2:58:15.039 similar to trying to address the world of Batman fans, right, 2:58:15.200 --> 2:58:18.080 Like these are all people who might self identify in 2:58:18.240 --> 2:58:21.000 some way, but you couldn't really identify them as a group, 2:58:21.640 --> 2:58:24.560 and they don't know each other and they're not so 2:58:24.800 --> 2:58:28.680 identifying in any way for each other. 2:58:29.160 --> 2:58:29.360 Yeah. 2:58:29.480 --> 2:58:32.400 Well, and as that relates to the no Blogs website, 2:58:32.440 --> 2:58:34.840 like it's they have they have not laid out any 2:58:34.840 --> 2:58:38.080 evidence of who is running this website at like who 2:58:38.240 --> 2:58:41.600 who is who's operating it, who's hosting the servers, none 2:58:41.600 --> 2:58:44.279 of that. None of that information is included in the indictment. 2:58:44.560 --> 2:58:45.920 So the fact that they're trying to tie this to 2:58:45.959 --> 2:58:49.039 Solidarity Fund in some ways is very is very bizarre, 2:58:49.640 --> 2:58:52.520 just because there was like a link on this website 2:58:52.840 --> 2:58:55.520 to donate to the Solidarity Fund, but any anyone could 2:58:55.560 --> 2:58:58.119 put a link there like that's like I've put links 2:58:58.120 --> 2:59:00.880 to the Solidarity Fund in the show notes of this podcast, right, 2:59:00.920 --> 2:59:04.160 I'm I'm not I'm not connected to them in any 2:59:04.360 --> 2:59:08.040 in any other way. So just just having having that 2:59:08.240 --> 2:59:10.680 be this this kind of aspect and even even if 2:59:10.760 --> 2:59:14.039 somehow Solidarity Fund were running running running this whole website, 2:59:14.080 --> 2:59:16.039 which there's no evidence they are, this feels like would 2:59:16.040 --> 2:59:18.120 also relate to like a section two thirty case where 2:59:18.480 --> 2:59:22.080 people who host content are not responsible for the actual 2:59:22.400 --> 2:59:25.160 like like they're they're not like the I'm not a 2:59:25.320 --> 2:59:27.760 super big lob person, but this usually applies to like 2:59:27.800 --> 2:59:31.199 social media sites and other places that host user generated content, 2:59:31.600 --> 2:59:34.520 that the actual site itself is not responsible for the 2:59:34.680 --> 2:59:37.240 user generated content that is that is that is on 2:59:37.440 --> 2:59:40.040 this site. So it's anyway, there's a whole bunch of 2:59:40.120 --> 2:59:42.680 you know, various various aspects of this claim that don't 2:59:42.720 --> 2:59:44.960 don't make any sense to me. But it's verically that 2:59:45.000 --> 2:59:47.640 they're trying to wrap all of these no blogs posts 2:59:47.680 --> 2:59:50.880 in because that's the most that's most like the evidence 2:59:50.920 --> 2:59:53.280 they have, which is extremely weak, you know, it's it's 2:59:53.320 --> 2:59:55.880 it's in some ways a good sign that all they 2:59:55.959 --> 2:59:58.120 have are these anonymous posts on this website with no 2:59:58.560 --> 3:00:02.400 actual you know, idea of who made them or if 3:00:02.440 --> 3:00:05.320 they're true or not. But that's the kind of that's 3:00:05.360 --> 3:00:07.040 the that's a lot of a lot of what a 3:00:07.120 --> 3:00:08.960 lot of what they are going off or are just 3:00:09.040 --> 3:00:12.720 these website posts which well, a lot of these things. 3:00:13.360 --> 3:00:18.320 I don't even know if they could make them admissible 3:00:19.800 --> 3:00:25.560 or under what theory, because you know, we don't. I 3:00:25.680 --> 3:00:28.280 don't know how they would attribute them, right, I mean, 3:00:29.840 --> 3:00:32.600 look their public statements. I suppose they can bring them 3:00:32.640 --> 3:00:36.080 in just as public statements that have been made. But 3:00:37.080 --> 3:00:43.520 the indictment is a mess, and it is full of 3:00:44.400 --> 3:00:50.640 baffling claims and unsupported claims and claims that are demonstrably untrue. 3:00:53.120 --> 3:00:59.760 And nevertheless, I am concerned that they may get some 3:01:00.600 --> 3:01:04.760 I don't know. I don't practice in that jurisdiction. I'm 3:01:04.840 --> 3:01:08.320 not familiar. You know, I've never defended a RICO case. 3:01:09.480 --> 3:01:14.040 Just to be clear, you know, my my wheelhouse is 3:01:14.080 --> 3:01:18.959 state repression. This is clearly that. But I'm not tremendously 3:01:19.040 --> 3:01:29.160 familiar with litigating rico, and I'm not you know, I 3:01:29.240 --> 3:01:33.279 would like to have some faith in the legal system, 3:01:33.480 --> 3:01:39.080 but that faith has been worn rather thin, and it 3:01:39.160 --> 3:01:45.119 has particularly been worn thin after watching you know, all 3:01:45.200 --> 3:01:49.000 of the abuses that have taken place in this particular case. So, 3:01:49.440 --> 3:01:52.520 you know, I am really concerned. I'm really concerned about 3:01:52.680 --> 3:01:59.879 the constitutionality of this statute and of the domestic Terrorism Statute. 3:02:03.280 --> 3:02:05.720 I am concerned about what will happen in the courts 3:02:07.080 --> 3:02:15.800 if this proceeds. That said, it is entirely possible that 3:02:16.040 --> 3:02:20.280 this is like many many criminal cases that are brought 3:02:20.320 --> 3:02:25.920 in the context of protest movements. It is entirely possible 3:02:25.959 --> 3:02:30.160 that the primary thing motivating these cases is an effort 3:02:30.280 --> 3:02:36.760 to fractionate and drain and distract and criminalize, in the 3:02:37.000 --> 3:02:43.080 popular imagination, the movement to stop cop City. They may 3:02:43.200 --> 3:02:46.080 be more interested in doing those things than they are 3:02:46.480 --> 3:02:51.240 in obtaining any convictions or proceeding to trial, and they 3:02:51.320 --> 3:02:56.840 may well succeed. You know, Look, prosecution is a very 3:02:57.440 --> 3:03:04.880 very effective way to to undermine movement solidarity, and it's 3:03:04.920 --> 3:03:08.280 a very effective way to undermine popular support, and it's 3:03:08.320 --> 3:03:12.920 a very effective way to make it impossible for people 3:03:12.959 --> 3:03:16.560 to actually focus on their movement goals because they have 3:03:16.640 --> 3:03:19.240 to spend all of their time doing court support and 3:03:20.120 --> 3:03:22.160 hiring lawyers and talking to me. 3:03:22.920 --> 3:03:23.440 Right, And. 3:03:24.920 --> 3:03:27.120 When you're talking to me, you're probably not doing a 3:03:27.200 --> 3:03:33.160 lot of public education or signature gathering or forest defense. Right, So, 3:03:35.000 --> 3:03:36.800 you know, I guess what I would say is like, 3:03:36.879 --> 3:03:39.800 this is a very clear example of state repression. It 3:03:39.959 --> 3:03:42.920 is extremely disruptive. I'm sure that the people who are 3:03:43.560 --> 3:03:48.200 included on this indictment have good reason to be quite anxious. 3:03:49.280 --> 3:03:54.640 But that said, as I frequently remind people, state repression 3:03:54.800 --> 3:03:58.440 is not new. It exists all of the time, whether 3:03:58.560 --> 3:04:00.440 or not we can see it. Right, even if we 3:04:00.520 --> 3:04:04.359 didn't have this indictment, there would be other things happening. 3:04:05.920 --> 3:04:09.640 And the most powerful weapon that the state has to 3:04:10.280 --> 3:04:14.480 quell social movements is fear. And so the solution to 3:04:14.560 --> 3:04:18.440 state repression is not self censorship. It is not staying home. 3:04:19.160 --> 3:04:19.920 It is courage. 3:04:21.040 --> 3:04:23.160 I think that's one of the more you know, interesting 3:04:23.240 --> 3:04:26.360 things about what's been happening in Atlanta the past two 3:04:26.440 --> 3:04:28.800 years is that every time the state has kind of 3:04:28.879 --> 3:04:31.960 unveiled a new suppression tactic, right, it's whether it's like 3:04:32.280 --> 3:04:36.400 you know, increased raids and domesti terrorism charges, you know, 3:04:36.480 --> 3:04:39.240 all of this, the Solidarity fund raid, you know, trying 3:04:39.280 --> 3:04:43.360 to compromise people's ability to access bail funds. Every time 3:04:43.480 --> 3:04:45.920 there's been this this kind of new attempt. It has 3:04:46.080 --> 3:04:48.680 not caused people to back down. It's caused them to 3:04:48.760 --> 3:04:52.640 actually like strengthen their solidarity with each other and keep 3:04:52.680 --> 3:04:55.000 on and keep on going. I think that's because all 3:04:55.040 --> 3:04:57.039 of these things have been seen from the start as 3:04:57.280 --> 3:05:00.600 very clear tactics of state repression. It is actually like 3:05:00.680 --> 3:05:03.080 catalyze people to actually like care for each other more 3:05:03.520 --> 3:05:05.720 and and and and recognize what is going on so 3:05:05.800 --> 3:05:08.440 they can respond appropriately and and and not let all 3:05:08.480 --> 3:05:11.280 of these all of these very like chilling tactics, but 3:05:11.800 --> 3:05:14.480 consciously make sure that you recognize that so that you 3:05:14.520 --> 3:05:16.600 don't let it really like you know, affect your ability 3:05:16.680 --> 3:05:19.680 to continue continue doing the work that you feel is 3:05:19.720 --> 3:05:22.720 so important. And that's absolutely been one of the things 3:05:22.760 --> 3:05:27.920 that's been very unique to watch in Atlanta. I think, uh, 3:05:28.000 --> 3:05:29.920 I think we've kind of covered lots of lots of 3:05:30.000 --> 3:05:32.680 what I wanted to get into. In case you have 3:05:32.760 --> 3:05:34.840 any other kind of things of note or any like 3:05:34.879 --> 3:05:37.080 any like a resources you want to you want. 3:05:37.000 --> 3:05:37.959 To point people towards. 3:05:39.080 --> 3:05:40.680 I think I think we'll be kind of close to 3:05:40.720 --> 3:05:41.360 wrapping up here. 3:05:42.600 --> 3:05:46.320 I do not do social media, so I have nothing 3:05:46.400 --> 3:05:53.680 to plug. I think the best resources that are out 3:05:53.720 --> 3:06:00.360 there are The Center for Constitutional Rights has uh zine 3:06:00.440 --> 3:06:09.560 called if an Agent knox YEP and the Electronic Frontier 3:06:09.720 --> 3:06:16.400 Foundation has a website called Surveillance Self Defense. And I 3:06:16.440 --> 3:06:20.959 would recommend everyone familiarize themselves with both of those things, 3:06:23.200 --> 3:06:26.000 and for the love of God, encrypt your phone and 3:06:26.360 --> 3:06:26.960 use signal. 3:06:27.720 --> 3:06:32.600 Yes, absolutely, I love the things about that indictment that 3:06:33.160 --> 3:06:33.440 was so. 3:06:34.920 --> 3:06:38.199 That just made me roll my eyes until they popped 3:06:38.240 --> 3:06:42.640 out the back of my head. Was this casting of 3:06:42.760 --> 3:06:48.840 the use of encrypted technology as being extremely sinister, and 3:06:49.840 --> 3:06:54.680 I thought, my god. You know, privacy is good actually, and. 3:06:55.720 --> 3:06:59.080 It's literally in the Constitution like it is in fact 3:06:59.240 --> 3:07:02.520 the case that the government is not entitled to all 3:07:02.640 --> 3:07:07.080 information about us, which is why we have curtains and doors. 3:07:10.000 --> 3:07:14.040 Yes, no, there's certainly many many funny aspects of the 3:07:14.160 --> 3:07:17.920 Reco case. Hopefully, you know, people, this will all, you know, 3:07:18.120 --> 3:07:21.200 turn out to be not very legally viable and in 3:07:21.320 --> 3:07:24.080 ten years we can just laugh about it. But I mean, 3:07:24.840 --> 3:07:27.280 you know, it's people have been talking about, you know, 3:07:27.440 --> 3:07:30.400 the increased possibility for these types of grand juries. You 3:07:30.480 --> 3:07:33.200 know this this was a grand jury in the case 3:07:33.200 --> 3:07:36.800 of these Reco indictments, where they used Special Agent Ryan 3:07:36.879 --> 3:07:38.760 Long of the GBI is their only witness. 3:07:39.600 --> 3:07:42.560 I was noticing this. I thought, my god, you only 3:07:42.680 --> 3:07:46.600 had one witness for all of these allegations. Well, no, 3:07:46.800 --> 3:07:52.320 wonder your indictment reads like it was. All right, Yes, 3:07:53.000 --> 3:07:56.000 I'm gonna stop talking shit about their indictment. 3:07:57.240 --> 3:07:59.920 While recognizing this is state oppression, there's still like, you know, 3:08:00.040 --> 3:08:03.480 an ongoing fear of grand juries and like further indicts 3:08:03.600 --> 3:08:05.520 in Atlanta, because you have to this is very like 3:08:05.840 --> 3:08:07.920 life and death work, and this is a very life 3:08:07.959 --> 3:08:12.680 and death situation, so you know, very there's very very 3:08:12.760 --> 3:08:16.680 clear uh practices like like using signal and shutting the 3:08:16.720 --> 3:08:19.920 fuck up, which are very important when you know when 3:08:19.920 --> 3:08:21.400 you're when you when you're doing this sort of thing. 3:08:22.040 --> 3:08:24.760 One other thing is that, uh, for for a while 3:08:24.840 --> 3:08:27.200 after the Solidarity Fund was rated, they were not you know, 3:08:27.280 --> 3:08:29.840 taking in donations. They they were outsourcing it to the net, 3:08:29.879 --> 3:08:32.840 to the National Bill Fund. I believe they are they 3:08:32.879 --> 3:08:36.640 are back this. The Solidarity Fund website is now once 3:08:36.640 --> 3:08:40.680 again taking taking donations to help people who are facing 3:08:40.800 --> 3:08:44.480 this repression, for legal support, for counsel, all all these 3:08:44.640 --> 3:08:47.640 sorts of things. And because this case just keeps on growing, 3:08:48.240 --> 3:08:51.280 you know, they're they're always kind of needing, needing, needing 3:08:51.320 --> 3:08:53.600 more resources to get people lawyers, to get people out 3:08:53.640 --> 3:08:56.360 of jail, all of these sorts of things. So you 3:08:56.440 --> 3:08:58.480 can you can once again donate at the at the 3:08:58.560 --> 3:09:02.400 at L solidarity site. So that is that is also 3:09:02.560 --> 3:09:05.600 kind of new news as of as of the past few, 3:09:05.840 --> 3:09:10.480 uh few weeks. Thank you mom for talking about this. Uh, 3:09:10.879 --> 3:09:12.640 this is very enlightening. 3:09:13.520 --> 3:09:16.160 It's my pleasure. And I guess the last thing I'll 3:09:16.240 --> 3:09:19.920 say is I do as always want to remind all 3:09:20.000 --> 3:09:25.160 of your listeners that there is never ever a compelling 3:09:25.320 --> 3:09:30.160 reason to speak to police or answer their questions before 3:09:30.760 --> 3:09:34.280 you talk to a lawyer. And so if please start 3:09:34.360 --> 3:09:36.920 asking you questions, the one and only thing you need 3:09:37.040 --> 3:09:40.880 to say is I am going to remain silent and 3:09:41.000 --> 3:09:44.120 I want to speak with my attorney. And if they 3:09:44.200 --> 3:09:46.400 knock on your door or call you on the phone, 3:09:46.959 --> 3:09:50.959 you can say I am represented by counsel. Please leave 3:09:50.959 --> 3:09:53.400 your name and number and my lawyer will call you. 3:09:54.520 --> 3:09:54.760 Yep. 3:09:56.680 --> 3:09:58.400 You can print up the little sheet that tells you 3:09:58.480 --> 3:09:59.879 what to say, put it, put it next to your 3:10:00.160 --> 3:10:03.160 or join the join the number of punk houses that 3:10:03.320 --> 3:10:04.480 have that have the. 3:10:04.520 --> 3:10:06.560 Sheet next to their next to their front door. 3:10:08.680 --> 3:10:08.880 Yeah. 3:10:09.040 --> 3:10:13.400 Absolutely, well again, thank you Byra, Thank you for listening 3:10:13.440 --> 3:10:13.920 for everybody. 3:10:14.080 --> 3:10:16.119 Uh yeah, do not do not talk to cops. 3:10:19.640 --> 3:10:22.760 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:10:22.879 --> 3:10:24.720 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:10:25.360 --> 3:10:27.680 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:10:27.959 --> 3:10:30.600 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:10:30.640 --> 3:10:32.840 cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 3:10:32.879 --> 3:10:36.279 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:10:36.720 --> 3:10:38.840 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 3:10:38.920 --> 3:10:42.920 monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.