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Speaker 1: A media Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to karapn Here. I am Andrew of THETU channel

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Speaker 2: Andrewism and today I'd like to take some time to

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Speaker 2: discuss nations, clonialism and the people that constitute them. That

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Speaker 2: is of course quite broad, but in the end I

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Speaker 2: hope that folks are able to come with a sense

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Speaker 2: of at least my version of the anarchist position on Nichans,

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Speaker 2: the impact of colonization, the pychees of individuals within nitions,

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Speaker 2: and the role of national liberation in social revolution. Today

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Speaker 2: I'm joined by me Mia.

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Speaker 3: Who oh boy, it great topic. Interesting topic, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed, indeed, I think part of what makes the

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Speaker 2: topic so interesting is because of how for lack of bets,

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Speaker 2: it's how wiggly some of these tombs are how hard

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Speaker 2: to pin down some of these definitions are. So it's

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Speaker 2: very important to be clear at the outset what you

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Speaker 2: mean by a nation, what you mean by national liberation,

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So what is a nation? What

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Speaker 2: comes to mind for you? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Oh god, yeah, I know I should have pre prepped

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Speaker 3: an answer to this. I have a very difficult time

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Speaker 3: conceiving of a nation is something that's separated from a state,

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Speaker 3: which I know is something a lot of people try

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Speaker 3: to do. For me, it's just been sort of permanently

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Speaker 3: welded to the nation state in a way that makes

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Speaker 3: it hard to sort of think about without conjoining the two.

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Speaker 2: That's fair, That's fair. I think that that really is

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Speaker 2: part of what we're going to end up discussing. Because,

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Speaker 2: for one, you know, as we'll see, a lot of

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Speaker 2: nations were formed through the process of colonization and through

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Speaker 2: the process of incorporation into the global uh you know, superstructure,

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Speaker 2: global system. And secondly, it is seen to be the

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Speaker 2: ultimate aim of a nation, the greatest accomplishment of a nation,

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Speaker 2: to eventually establish their own state, to have a state

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Speaker 2: of their own. We call nations that don't have their

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Speaker 2: own state state less nations, the Kurds being one of

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Speaker 2: the most notable examples. But it really is commonly seen

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Speaker 2: that the ultimate accomplishment is for the braation of your people,

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Speaker 2: is that you establish a state to rule that people

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Speaker 2: for themselves. Of course, what for themselves actually means becomes

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Speaker 2: quite clear, as in many cases foreign rulers and the

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Speaker 2: practices of foreign rulers just take on a local face.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a there's a Curtis joke that goes roughly,

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Speaker 3: getting your own nation state means that you speak your

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Speaker 3: police towrdure you in your own language. Oh, that's fantastic,

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Speaker 3: that is.

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Speaker 2: I like that. I like that. And language really is

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Speaker 2: one of the aspects of what it is to be

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Speaker 2: a nation, and it is not it's not necessarily the

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Speaker 2: only aspect or primary aspect, but it is one aspect.

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Speaker 2: For example, what is considered the Basque nation, those in

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Speaker 2: northern Spain and part of southern southwestern France. I believe

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Speaker 2: their identity is not entirely, but quite significantly tied to

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Speaker 2: their language, because it is a language that is completely

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Speaker 2: distinct from any other language found in Europe or really

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Speaker 2: anywhere else in the world. The language is just one

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Speaker 2: aspect the nation. A nation I mean not in the

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Speaker 2: sense of a state or a country or political constitution,

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Speaker 2: but in the sense of an imagined community of people.

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Speaker 2: An imagined community of people. I think that imagined aspect

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Speaker 2: of it is quite important as well. Student see, but

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Speaker 2: an imagine the community of people formed on the basis

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Speaker 2: of a common language, history, ancestry, society, or culture, who

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Speaker 2: are conscious of their autonomy. So it's not enough that

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Speaker 2: a group of people merely share a language, or share history,

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Speaker 2: or share ancestry, or share society or share culture. It's

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Speaker 2: important that firms we defined as a nation, that they

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Speaker 2: are conscious of the fact that they share those things

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Speaker 2: in common, and that they use that consciousness to develop

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Speaker 2: some sense of an imagine shared identity, of imagined community,

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Speaker 2: whether or not each individual in that community knows all

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Speaker 2: the other individuals in that community. Nations are not necessarily

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Speaker 2: geographically bound, like you know, certain conceptions of a nation maybe,

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Speaker 2: but rather often diasporic, and some nations even united under

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Speaker 2: a banner of nations, such as in the case of

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Speaker 2: pan Africanism, which is a form of nation movement or

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Speaker 2: pan nation movement that seeks to unite the thousands of

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Speaker 2: ethnic groups and also the diaspora of the continents of

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Speaker 2: Africa in response to the exploitation of outsiders. In fact,

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Speaker 2: the pan Afka nation is really a quintessential example of

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Speaker 2: how colonism creates nations while exploiting them. And although Native

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Speaker 2: America in populations retained slightly more of their heritage than

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Speaker 2: the displaced African population in North America, though this is

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Speaker 2: not to deny what was lost their force. Displacement also

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Speaker 2: created something of a shared ethnic identity, which is where

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Speaker 2: you see movements like Red Power popping up during the

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Speaker 2: height of Soviriety era. Prior to the process of colonization,

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Speaker 2: they were distinct in their cultural groupings. This group would

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Speaker 2: be Blackfoot, this group would be create, this group would.

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Speaker 3: Be Sue or something right.

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Speaker 2: This script would be Sue. But then as they had

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Speaker 2: the shared experience of colonization, they began to develop a

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Speaker 2: sense of shared identity against those who are colonize in them,

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Speaker 2: a sense of solidarity that transcended their previous cultural distinctions

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Speaker 2: and designations. Not that those designations don't still exist, but

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Speaker 2: many have adopted a sort of panoration above that as

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Speaker 2: a vehicle through which they can undertake their struggle. However,

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Speaker 2: mere opposition between a colonized group and a colonizing force

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Speaker 2: is not the only way that clonism creates new nations.

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Speaker 2: Also through social stratification, through hybridization, through the imposition of

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Speaker 2: new religions, through new education systems, new languages, and new

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Speaker 2: administrative boundaries. All of those are ways in which cluonism

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Speaker 2: can develop u nations. For example, the case of the Metis,

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Speaker 2: a cultural intermingling and intermarriage between two radically different groups

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Speaker 2: ended up with the birth of the new nation of

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Speaker 2: the Maties in the unique colonial history of Canada, and

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Speaker 2: as we've see in nations are often the targets of

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Speaker 2: subraction and of subjugation and Eurasia, African peoples were stolen

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Speaker 2: from the constant and thoroughly stripped of their languages, histories,

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Speaker 2: and cultures, and continues to be oppressed throughout much of

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Speaker 2: the so called New World. In the United States, African

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Speaker 2: Americans faced centuries of systemic racism. In Brazil, the afric

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Speaker 2: Brazilian population also faced similar historical discrimination. Similarly in Colombia

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Speaker 2: and so on and so on. Indigenous nations across the

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Speaker 2: world also continue to be denied their autonomy as minorities

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Speaker 2: within a domineerian state. Palestinians and Israel have faced a

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Speaker 2: long standing conflict due to the raisure of their self determination.

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Speaker 2: Colgin and Released, as I've mentioned, spread across several countries

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Speaker 2: and do not have a country of their own, so

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Speaker 2: they have historically sought independence or at least autonomy. Aboriginal

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Speaker 2: Australians have faced struggles related to land rights, cultural preservation

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Speaker 2: and self governance, and although New Zealand has made progress

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Speaker 2: in recognizing the rights of the diligious Maria people, Marian

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Speaker 2: New Zealand have also dealt with issues related to land

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Speaker 2: ownership and cultural preservation, whether be the Armenians under the

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Speaker 2: Ottoman Empire in the past, or the current subjugation of

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Speaker 2: Hawaiian Puerto Rico under the US, or the Tibetan population

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Speaker 2: still under the firm of the Chinese state. Really could

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Speaker 2: go on and on. I really could go on and on.

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Speaker 2: Across the world, struggles have been an rb and fought

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Speaker 2: by nations for the liberation and much of their suffering

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Speaker 2: a struggle is thanks to the process of colonization. Our

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Speaker 2: present national borders and demographics were largely shaped and dictated

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Speaker 2: by the colonization and conquest of a few nations from Europe.

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Speaker 2: But what is colonialism? Exactly? As one anthropologist Chris quote

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Speaker 2: Right put it, colonialism is the establishment and control of

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Speaker 2: a territory for an extended period of time by a

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Speaker 2: sovereign power over a subordinate and other people which are

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Speaker 2: segregated and separated from the rule and power. He goes

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Speaker 2: on to say that features the colonal situation and include

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Speaker 2: political and legal domination over the other society, relations of

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Speaker 2: economic and political dependence, and institutionalized racial and cultural inequalities

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Speaker 2: to impose their dominant physical force through raids, expropriation of

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Speaker 2: labor and resources, imprisonment and objective murders. Enslavement of both

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Speaker 2: the indigenous people and their land is the primary objective colonization.

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Speaker 2: Through colonization, native cultures must be destroyed either strict crushed, empty, subsumed, cooperated,

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Speaker 2: or dismantled. And since colonism relies on a dichotomy of

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Speaker 2: superiority and inferiority, the colonialists must impose their own culture

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Speaker 2: over the native population, from language to dressed to daily practice.

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Speaker 2: That culture, which by the way, becomes native through that

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Speaker 2: process of colonization, and that already gets into the whole

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Speaker 2: discussion of what makes something native, what makes a people native.

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Speaker 2: There are two definitions that I balance try and dance between,

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Speaker 2: one being indigeneity through land relationship and the other being

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Speaker 2: indignity through colonial relationship. And so I'm referring to the

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Speaker 2: indignacy through colonial relationship when I say that a culture

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Speaker 2: or people becomes native through that process of colonization, because

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Speaker 2: prior to colonial inclusions, there was no non native to

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Speaker 2: define themselves against. They just were. You'll need to define

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Speaker 2: yourself as native to a place when an outsider or

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Speaker 2: an invasive force is pushing you out of that place

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Speaker 2: or trying to dominate you within that place. The old

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Speaker 2: forms of colonization are largely over, but the spirit of

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Speaker 2: colonization still lingers. It is a specter in the spheres

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Speaker 2: of culture and politics and economics. The colonial complex created

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Speaker 2: the world we see today and left quite the impression

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Speaker 2: psychologically on both the colonized and the colonizer. French Tunisian

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Speaker 2: writer Albert Mami wrote what I guess it to be

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Speaker 2: a very essential work on the relationship between the colonizer

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Speaker 2: and the colonized. That work that book is called the

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Speaker 2: Colonized and the Colonized was published in nineteen fifty seven,

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Speaker 2: and it was written and of course in a very

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Speaker 2: important time, in a time when many national liberation movements

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Speaker 2: were quite active, and so this work is often held

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Speaker 2: up with other important works in that anti colonial milieu,

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Speaker 2: including France Phenons, The Direction of the Earth, Black Skin,

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Speaker 2: White Masks, and IMA's discourse on clonialism. In the book

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Speaker 2: The Colonized and the Colonized, now, he spent some time

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Speaker 2: discussing the psychology of both, and he splits the condition

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Speaker 2: psychological conditions the colonized and the colonized into four parts,

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Speaker 2: the colonizer who accepts, the colonizer who refuses, the colonized

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Speaker 2: who accepts, and the colonized who refuses. So first there's

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Speaker 2: the colonizer who accepts. I've called that colonizer Christopher for

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Speaker 2: obvious reasons, that being Columbus. And so the Christopher accepts

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Speaker 2: his role as a colonizer, he becomes a colonist. That

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Speaker 2: means he has to accept the fact that his position

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Speaker 2: of privilege is non legitimate. So the any way he

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Speaker 2: could really enjoy his position would be to absolve himself

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Speaker 2: of the conditions of the guilt of the conditions under

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Speaker 2: which he was attained. That's why Christopher forcifies history, creates

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Speaker 2: racist mythology, rewrites laws, and attempts to whitewash his legacy.

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Speaker 2: That's why he emphasizes his superiority while castness, persions, and

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Speaker 2: the colonized. He has to do whatever it takes to

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Speaker 2: justify his evils, to uplift himself to the skies while

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Speaker 2: grinding those below him underground. Deep down, Christopher knows all

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Speaker 2: of his master up, but he can't admit that to himself.

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Speaker 2: He has to keep degrading the colonized, and so, just

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Speaker 2: as the colonal situation manufactures the colonized, Christopher the colonialist

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Speaker 2: is also transformed. Now he chairs on torture, discrimination, and massacre.

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Speaker 2: He becomes a reactionary, a conservative, and a fascist. But

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Speaker 2: the condemnation that he carries in his heart can ever

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Speaker 2: truly be raised. It pisses him off that he relies

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Speaker 2: in the colonize to maintain the colony, even though he

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Speaker 2: came looking for profit and already has a homeland. But

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Speaker 2: he has to direct his anger somewhere. So becomes a racist,

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Speaker 2: and not just any racism, a racism. So fundamentally ingrained

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Speaker 2: in his personality. Racism built on three major components. One

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Speaker 2: there exists some major gulf between him and the colonized.

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Speaker 2: Two that he can exploit these differences to his benefit,

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Speaker 2: and three that these differences are absolute and cannot be changed. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: he's able to remain separate from the community the colonized

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Speaker 2: by holding any social mobility. And he's able to continue

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Speaker 2: to justify superiority because honestly, circular logic, right, these people

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Speaker 2: are inferior because they aren't at my level, and they

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Speaker 2: aren't at my level because I keep them in it

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Speaker 2: because I keep them in their inferior position, and on

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Speaker 2: and on and on. Added bonus, of course, he gets

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Speaker 2: to feel good about himself. While doing so, he becomes

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Speaker 2: a humanitarian. Surely the colonize needed him to bring the

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Speaker 2: light of civilization. Look at them, so stupid and sivile.

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Speaker 2: All this is natural and need to know, so he

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Speaker 2: has nothing to worry about. It is divine grace that

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Speaker 2: has brought him to this place. It is a manifest

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Speaker 2: destiny that he continues this tradition. And I mean if

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Speaker 2: he enjoys a couple of perks in his quest to

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Speaker 2: civilize them. Well, surely is just justice should be grateful Christopher,

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Speaker 2: benevolent master of the natural order, no question. And really

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Speaker 2: this is why missus there was right to say. The

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Speaker 2: colonization dehumanizes even the most civilized man. It inevitably tends

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Speaker 2: to change him who undertakes it that the colonizer, who,

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Speaker 2: in order to ease his conscience, gets into the habit

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Speaker 2: of seeing the other man as an animal, accustoms himself

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Speaker 2: to treating him like an animal, and tends objectively to

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Speaker 2: transform himself into an animal. No offense to animals, of course,

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Speaker 2: I'm just quotients.

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Speaker 4: There.

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Speaker 2: On the flip side of the coin is the colonizer

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Speaker 2: who refuses John. You see, not every colonizer becomes a

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Speaker 2: colingless John tries to just the role, but he is

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Speaker 2: still a colonizer. He tries to ignore his position of privilege,

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Speaker 2: but he kind of escaped mentally from a concrete situation.

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Speaker 2: He kind of refused the ideology of crinalism while continuing

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Speaker 2: to live with its actual relationships, while continuing to benefit

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Speaker 2: from the privileges he half heartedly denounces. See, colonial relations

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Speaker 2: can't be boiled down to individual feelings, so it doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter much materially. If John accepts or rejects it, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter if he feels guilty or not. His identity

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Speaker 2: is fundamentally defined in relation to colonization. He's still part

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Speaker 2: of the oppression group. He shares in their good fortune

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Speaker 2: and would likely share their faith. It makes it clear

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Speaker 2: that the truth is between colonizer and colonized. There is

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Speaker 2: only room for forced labor, intimidation, pressure, police, taxation, theft, rape,

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Speaker 2: upulsory crops, contempt, mistrust, arrogance, self complacency, swinishness, brainless elites,

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Speaker 2: degraded masses, no human contact, but relations of domination and submission.

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Speaker 2: Was sh the colonizing man into a classroom monitor, an

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Speaker 2: army sergeant, a prison guard, a slave driver, and the

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Speaker 2: indigenous man into an instrument of production. Even if John

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Speaker 2: is a leftist, a progressive trying his best to assist

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Speaker 2: the national liberation to colonize people's he's still in a

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Speaker 2: rough situation. Of course, not many colonizers have actually been

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Speaker 2: you know about it like that. But even if John

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Speaker 2: was to create a world or colonization, maybe hard for

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Speaker 2: him to picture his situation change in all that much

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Speaker 2: He's accustomed to privilege and so equality is probably going

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Speaker 2: to feel like oppression. You can't imagine not being who

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Speaker 2: he is with the comfortable domination of his culture and language,

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Speaker 2: he's ever had to accommodate others before, he's had to think,

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Speaker 2: oh wait, maybe I should try and learn their language,

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Speaker 2: try and incorporate elements of their cultural moriors. He still

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Speaker 2: holds the subtle vestiges of the racist ideology that his

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Speaker 2: country was built on, and he will have to fight

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Speaker 2: his own class interests and his own fellow colonizers. Revolution

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Speaker 2: would require the decimation of his current identity and the

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Speaker 2: rebooth of another. And that decision, that gargantuan task, maybe

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Speaker 2: too challenging for some people to undertake. So, miir, what

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Speaker 2: do you think of the position of the colonizer who

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Speaker 2: accepts and the colonizer who refuses.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I think is interesting about

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Speaker 3: this is that the original concept of privilege was something

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Speaker 3: that came out of like this specific kind of analysis

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Speaker 3: was about like like it was it was, it was

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Speaker 3: about French settlers in Algeria, and you know, it was,

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Speaker 3: it was, it was, it was. It was originally something

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Speaker 3: along basically along these similar lines where it's like it

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Speaker 3: doesn't really matter what your ideological beliefs are if you're

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Speaker 3: sort of like a French settler in Algeria, like you

294
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Speaker 3: just automatically have privilege that like other people didn't. And

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Speaker 3: this has been sort of like I don't know, I

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Speaker 3: like the original sort of context of what this analysis

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Speaker 3: was has been sort of worn down. But I think

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Like I think I think it is

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Speaker 3: colonizers like this is this is a structural position, right,

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Speaker 3: like you know, the the sort of you can't sort

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Speaker 3: of individualism your way out of a structural condition. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And I think that's something people sort of have this

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Speaker 3: incredible capacity to sort of believe about themselves and it's

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Speaker 3: just not really true. And that's something that's very difficult

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Speaker 3: to sort of like actually substantively confront. But I think

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Speaker 3: it's why this analysis of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Is useful exactly exactly. It's not enough to just say, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: I don't think this is right, I think this is wrong.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't change anything materially. It's when you act to

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Speaker 2: challenge the dismantle, to confront, and to act in cell

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Speaker 2: the arity with those facing those challenges in a material

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Speaker 2: way that any of it really matters. I think it

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Speaker 2: was particularly politin and of course Mami is writing this,

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Speaker 2: and Cesaire wrote in a time when colonization is really

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Speaker 2: at or rather the confrontation against colonizations really added to Zenith.

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Speaker 2: And so for those of us in the twenty first century,

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three now who are looking back, we're saying,

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Speaker 2: we might think, oh, well, surely this is a data analysis,

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Speaker 2: a dated way of looking at these relationships. But upon

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Speaker 2: through the inspection, it really continues to be quite topical

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Speaker 2: when you look at, for example, self proclaimed allies. Looking

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Speaker 2: at how Mami discusses the colonizer who refuses really gives

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Speaker 2: you a sense of I think, at least how far

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Speaker 2: you need to be willing to go in your allyship

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Speaker 2: versus how far most people have reached. Even today, we

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Speaker 2: can ask ourselves and those who maybe see themselves a

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Speaker 2: bit in the colonizer who refuses, ask yourself, how far

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Speaker 2: I mean you may recognize your privileges even while still

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Speaker 2: you know in enjoying them, but how far might you

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Speaker 2: be willing to go to see an end to this system?

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Speaker 2: We speak about how the loss of privilege can make

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Speaker 2: equality feel like oppression, but truly grappling with that. What

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Speaker 2: would it mean, for example, English to no longer be

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Speaker 2: the dominant language? You know, what would it mean for

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Speaker 2: us to get used to will in which we might

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Speaker 2: have to learn another language? And then I've been thinking

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Speaker 2: about recently, even while occupying the position of a colonized subject,

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Speaker 2: I speak English, and that is a privilege. I speak

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Speaker 2: English natively, and I mean I'm trying to learn another language.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to learn Spanish, which is another colonized the language.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's sort of one of the other things. It's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, for me, it's it's like, Okay, you have English,

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Speaker 3: it's this colonial language. You're a Chinese, which is like

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Speaker 3: also colonial language. And I learned some Spanish. It's like, well,

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Speaker 3: all right, and that's a third colonial language destruct the towers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. And this when we get into this sort

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Speaker 2: of discussion about like actually postclualism and anti colonial struggle

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Speaker 2: and how you go about anti colualism, right, because there

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Speaker 2: is one of their different approaches. One could take different paths.

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Speaker 2: I suppose we could follow there's an anticlonial approach where

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Speaker 2: we could say, you know what, let's just try and

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Speaker 2: recreate pre colonial society. Right, So everybody tries to learn

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Speaker 2: the languages that they feel as though they might have

354
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Speaker 2: spoken if not under clonal system, if not, if Clonal's

355
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Speaker 2: history had not happened. And then we try to re

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Speaker 2: implement those languages, and reimpose those languages, and dismantle certain

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Speaker 2: institutions and structures and whatever the case may be, try

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Speaker 2: to basically erase the impact of colonization from history. And

359
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Speaker 2: then there's another path where we recognize, well, maybe we

360
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: cannot undo colonization, and truthfully we can't write. But going forward,

361
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Speaker 2: how do we intend to dismantle and to rework and

362
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Speaker 2: to create a new you know, taking from the past

363
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Speaker 2: to build the future, but not being bound to that past.

364
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Speaker 2: How do we, for example, let go of certain binds

365
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Speaker 2: on language, or certain ways of communicating, or certain ways

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Speaker 2: we organize systems, or certain customs and roles and obligations.

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Speaker 2: And I'm varying a bit from the intended topic of

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Speaker 2: psychology of colonization, but I do want us to think

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Speaker 2: about whether what role we regardless of what role we

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Speaker 2: see ourselves in this discussion, how do we pursue an

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Speaker 2: anti clar future. What does that look like? What paths

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Speaker 2: should we be taken, and how might that path chafe

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Speaker 2: against our current identity? How am that path chafe against

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Speaker 2: our current privileges, our current comforts. Yes, we are as workers,

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Speaker 2: all oppressed and exploited, but at the same time as

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Speaker 2: we recognize there are certain privileges that some have over others,

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Speaker 2: whether it be in the realm of race or gender,

378
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: or ability or language. And if we are going to

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Speaker 2: be pursuing a sequean so we have to ask ourselves,

380
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Speaker 2: how might those privileges be affected? And have we truly

381
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 2: confronted our comfort level with those privileges being affected. I

382
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: think that's part of the broader effort of decolonizing the mind.

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Speaker 2: And when I speak about it in my video and

384
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Speaker 2: why Revolutionary's therapy, the idea of like really truly breaking

385
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: down a lot of these ideas that we have about

386
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 2: ourselves and about the world and questioning all of it,

387
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: deconstructing and reconstructing all of it. But then when I

388
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: get too far, of course, sincere called the colonization thingification.

389
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Speaker 2: So let's turn our attention now to those things. Let's

390
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: discussed the situation of the colonized in this case, Candice,

391
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: and that defined by the images and myths that surround

392
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: them and tell them who they are. The colonized have

393
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: no way out of their condition within the colonial order.

394
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: They aren't free to choose between being colonized or not

395
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: being colonized. They just are colonized. And so Candace understands

396
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Speaker 2: this in her whole life, She's had to grapple with

397
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: the negative portraits of herself. They were created by the colonizer,

398
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: all the images that were used to support the clonal

399
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: situation that raised the colonizer and humbled the colonized. They

400
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: justified the colonizer as privilege, that painted the colonized as

401
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: inert and the colonizer as active. That made it seem

402
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: as though the colonizer, as the colonizer, was doing the

403
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: colonized a fever, that their labor was actually and the

404
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: employment was actually necessary, that it was charity that the

405
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: colonizer was bringing to their otherwise lazy masters. Being exposed

406
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: to that kind of message and from a young age,

407
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: really does a number on people, not just in the

408
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: realm of colonization, but in other spheres as well. We

409
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: see that with patriarchy, of course, how messages from an

410
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: early age affect how boys and girls and others perceive

411
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: themselves and perceive the world around them, and perceive others

412
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Speaker 2: in the cloning context. This means that some who are

413
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: colonized end up internalizing and accepting wholesale the messages that

414
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: they're receiving. So kind of thinks to herself. Perhaps the

415
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: colonizers right. Perhaps we are lazy, perhaps we are shifted,

416
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: perhaps we are timid and weak, and this degrading portrait

417
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 2: ends up being accepted. It's usually one of the final

418
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: steps of colonization, the colonization of the mind. Once the

419
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: colonize begins to tolerate rather than resist colonization, all they

420
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: can really look to do is attempt to assimilate, which

421
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: is impossible by a design. Does mean that Candice won't try.

422
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: She sheds the memories of her ancestors and the practices

423
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: institutions of her culture. She embraces the colonizers' will, and

424
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: all these institutions is right and just. The colonizers selve,

425
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 2: and the colonizers whip the colonizes God, and the colonizers' school.

426
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: Her children are sent to these schools built by the

427
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: colonizer to erase and replace a people's history, traditions, and language.

428
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: She and her kin are imbued with double consciousness. She's

429
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: trapped in the sunken place, performing for the colonizer in

430
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: a home country that don't feels foreign. Double consciousness is

431
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: a particularly useful concept, first coined by WB. Du Bois

432
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: in the Souls of Black Folk in nineteen oh three.

433
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: He was speaking specifically about African Americans, but the concept

434
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: does apply in the contexts as well. Double consciousness is

435
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: the dual self perception experienced by subordinate peoples in an

436
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: oppressive society. It is looking at yourself through your own

437
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: eyes and simultaneously looking at yourself through the eyes of

438
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: a racist society, looking at who you are, and also

439
00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: looking at what the dominant society sees and thinks of

440
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: who you are. Of course, the voice concept was further

441
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: built upon, and you know, people speak about her things

442
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: such as triple consciousness, and in some ways the idea

443
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: of double consciousness is can't be tied with the conversation

444
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: of intersectionality. But they are those who experience that double consciousness,

445
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: and rather than reasserting their view of themselves and their people,

446
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: they accept the negative view held by the dominant society.

447
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: They surround themselves the language of that dominant society kindnesses

448
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: world from the street signs, the documents to the courts,

449
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 2: the bureaucracyeded industry, or use the colonizing language. While her

450
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: mother tongue, the one used tenderly by her ancestors, the

451
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: one that sustained in the most feelings, emotions and dreams,

452
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 2: is he valued and degraded. Candice loses far more than

453
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: she gains by history, a culture future. She rejects herself,

454
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: self love and liberation itself. She rejects herself self, love

455
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 2: and liberation itself. I tending to model herself after the colonizer,

456
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: or rather crush herself into conformity, she gains self hate, shame,

457
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: and alienation. She sees her own people through the eyes

458
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: the condonations and accusations of the colonizer. She's atomized and

459
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: estranged from her people and rejected by the colonizer, utterly defeated.

460
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: But when he offers another path, an alternative mindset in

461
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 2: the colonized who refuses. You see, like Candace, not knows

462
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: that there will never be emancipation within the colonial relationship.

463
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: But unlike Candace, they know that there is no liberty

464
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: in a similation revolt is the only way out. An

465
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 2: absolute condition requires an absolute solution, and there can be

466
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 2: no compromise. Deliberation is a process of self recovery and

467
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: autonomous dignity. They must shake off the force images and

468
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: boldly attack the institutions of oppression. But even in their

469
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: resistance that still bears the traces of colonization. They still

470
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 2: share some of the values, techniques, and methods of the colonizer.

471
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: They still speak the language the colonizer can understand. To

472
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 2: be truly emancipated, that must work to rebuild a new,

473
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: authentic and self assured identity for themselves and their people.

474
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 2: That must reclaim and transform that which the colonizers consider negative,

475
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 2: must take pride in all their wrinkles and moods, never

476
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 2: shying away from their colonization, but accepting it as a

477
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: fact of their experience, their history, and yet overcoming that colonization. However,

478
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: there is the risk of continuing to define yourself in

479
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: relation to protest, in relation to revolt, and in relation

480
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: to colonization. At some point, maybe not now, but at

481
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 2: some point not we'll need to move beyond that means.

482
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: The definition what that future looks like is anyone's guests

483
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 2: and also up to everyone to help build I hope

484
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 2: you appreciated this. Sometimes meander and dive into the minds

485
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 2: of the colonizer and the colonized. The fight is not over.

486
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 2: The psychological, political, and economic consequences of colonization are still

487
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: fell to this day. The mentalities and conditions that discussed

488
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 2: still exist in very extents today. Hopefully this helps us

489
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: to better understand client's impact on us, so that we

490
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: can deconstruct that Leviathan together to create a freer and

491
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: what diverse and more humane world. Next time, I'll be

492
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: discussing the role of national liberation in the struggle for

493
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: freedom and what precisely that would entail. As I didn't

494
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: have time to get into it in this part. Welcome

495
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: toake it happen Here. I am Andrew of theature channel

496
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: of Andrewism. Last time I spoke about clonalism's effect on

497
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: the psyche of the people within it, and today I

498
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: want to talk about how people under the thumb of

499
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: clonalism go about deliberation and how that struggle fits within

500
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: some version of anomic asnalysis. National liberation is a struggle

501
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: against the relationship of exploitation and domination inflicted upon a nation.

502
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: It's a struggle against the domination of one people by another,

503
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 2: often centered on questions of language, culture, welfare, equality, and land.

504
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: It has consequences, and it's not something where you can

505
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: just stand by mutually and ignore. In fact, ignoring national

506
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: liberation struggles would been sided with national oppression. There's no

507
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 2: centrist take here. There is no both sides to the

508
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: oppression of a people by another. Of course, that doesn't

509
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: mean that national liberation struggles are free of critique or

510
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: necessarily morally righteous. National libriation struggles are usually quite diverse.

511
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,959
Speaker 2: Within them, their many tendencies at play, from the most

512
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: reactionary to the most revolutionary. I don't know if any

513
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: immediity come to mind. Fiumia.

514
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: Oh god, yeah, there's I mean, you know, I think

515
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: I always think about right is like China's a well,

516
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: it kind of unique. I mean, there's there's a lot

517
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: of countries that you get multiple like national liberation movements.

518
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 3: China is kind of unique and that we had two

519
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 3: nominally left wing national liberation movements and like one of them,

520
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 3: one of them is the KMT who like the the

521
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 3: the the the end of their natlib arc is like

522
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 3: training a bunch of desk squads in El Salvador because

523
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: they've gotten so good at killing peasants that like, you know,

524
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 3: this is what they're doing with their life. And the

525
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 3: other one is CCP and it's like, well, okay, like great,

526
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 3: great job, guys, like liberated, We've liberated a lot of people.

527
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 3: We've like you know, I don't know, it's it's I

528
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 3: think I think there's sort of two ways of looking

529
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 3: at that, where it's like you have on the one hand,

530
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 3: you can look at it from the sort of like

531
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: worker's perspective, where it's like, well, yeah, okay, so both

532
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 3: you have your two national liberation movements and both of

533
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 3: them end up machine gunning about a million workers depending

534
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 3: on like you know, in offset from each other in

535
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 3: about forty years. But you know, you have the Shaghai

536
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: massacre and you have the cultural revolution. And then I

537
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 3: think the other thing that's important when you're looking at

538
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 3: like a gnatlib movement is like whose nation is being liberated?

539
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 3: And this is something you get with like Indonesia. Right,

540
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 3: you know, you have the national liberation movement, but then

541
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 3: you simultaneously have like the occupation of West Papua.

542
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like a Russia nest egg of national oppression,

543
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: like the like Adonesia is being oppressed by the Dutch

544
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: and then Indonesia and sulf oppression if you for West

545
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: Papua and East Timor and all those different places.

546
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you see this a lot with like, you know,

547
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 3: I don't know. This is why, like I think I

548
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 3: keep coming back to like whose nation is being liberated

549
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: the thing because it's like, you know, you get this

550
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 3: with a lot of like the sort of pan Air

551
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: movements and it's like, well, okay, we're doing like resistance

552
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 3: to sort of like French or British colonialism, and then

553
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 3: like yes, this is this is okay if you are Arab,

554
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: like God help you. If you're a Curred or like

555
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 3: CD or like you know, so there's there's always these

556
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 3: sort of I don't know, you have to be careful

557
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 3: about who wins the national liberation.

558
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 2: Movement exactly exactly, because not a whay a national liberations

559
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: struggle is happening. They're most likely minorities that are not

560
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: encapsulated in that you know, they're always going to be

561
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: populations of people who are not of that nation. Within

562
00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 2: the territory of the national liberation struggle and then be

563
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: on that they're also within national liberation struggles other ongoing struggles,

564
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: including class struggle. While the oppressed classes might claim to

565
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,479
Speaker 2: national liberation struggle in an effort to defend against foreign

566
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: subjugation and exploitation, the capitalist class is using that struggle

567
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: for national liberation to consolidate their own power and monopolize

568
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 2: their own exportation the working class. A lot of capitalists,

569
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: their whole investment in national liberation boils down to I

570
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 2: don't like the fact that I have to compete with

571
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: foreign capitalists. I want to compete with local capitalists so

572
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 2: I can come out on top. And yeah, that's not cool. Yeah,

573
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: And then I think. Another thing that gets conflated when

574
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: you start talking about national liberation the liberation of a

575
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 2: nation is the concept of nationalism.

576
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 4: Right.

577
00:42:53,120 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 2: Nationalism is a program that has been proposed, or rather

578
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: a suite of programs I've been proposed as the solutions

579
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: national libration struggles, because I can't even say that nationalism

580
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: is a single program. Nationalism itself is quite diverse, as

581
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: we'll soon see. But nationalism is only one response, one

582
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: possible response. It may be the most common response, but

583
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 2: it's only one possible response to the national liberation struggle.

584
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: And then it's also the terminology that gets modeled when

585
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: you start talking about nationalism, right because, as I defined,

586
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 2: national liberation is the struggle of an exploited people against

587
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: a dominating group or against their domination, just generally necessarily

588
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: against one specific group, could be multiple groups, but it's

589
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: the struggle of a people against their domination. However, when

590
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 2: you get into nationalism, there are forms of nationalism developed

591
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: by oppressive groups, developed by the oppressors. Sometimes they developed

592
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: on nationalism in order to more effectively oppress the people

593
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 2: they oppress it, and so, and you know, you can

594
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: even argue that there are cases where oppressed nations adopt

595
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: nationalism as strategy for their liberation and end up pursuing

596
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: a form of nationalism that is quite similar to that

597
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 2: which they were being oppressed under. There's one immediate example

598
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: that comes to mind, if you know what I mean.

599
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 3: I have like nine so I'm not entirely sure what

600
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 3: you're pointing at or nine.

601
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, what are you thinking of?

602
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 3: Okay, well, okay, I wanted to talk about this. I

603
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 3: think there's like a very there's like a kind of

604
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: Chinese nationalism that does this a lot, but this is

605
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 3: I think a kind of common thing of like they're

606
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 3: one of the sort of responses to colonization that's pretty common.

607
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 3: Is this really really this sort of like like quintupling

608
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 3: down on patriarchy where you know, you like because one

609
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 3: of the effects of colonization obviously is like the sort

610
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 3: of like one of the sort of psychological things is

611
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 3: is this sort of like you know, is this installation

612
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: of inferiority into the minds of the people who being colonized.

613
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 3: And so one of the ways people respond to this

614
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 3: is by being like, no, like the colonizers are wrong,

615
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 3: Like our men are actually really strong, and like our

616
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 3: men are actually incredibly manly, and like we have really

617
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 3: really like tight powerful controller of women. And you see

618
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 3: this fucking everywhere, right, This is why all of like

619
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 3: there's so many sort of like Chinese nationalists who are

620
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 3: so obsessed with like these videos of like like basically

621
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 3: indistinguishable from American right wing videos where they're just like

622
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 3: walking around with no shirts on and being like, look

623
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: at how strong I am. It's like you see you

624
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: see this thing with like hn do for people too,

625
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 3: where's like they do like exactly the same ship, Like

626
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: it's all over the fucking place. You can see you

627
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 3: can see the Taliban doing this now too, and it's

628
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 3: like it's it's like it's you know, it's it's they

629
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 3: very cool.

630
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 2: They're seeing colonization as emasculating.

631
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and and and that's you know, and I

632
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 3: think there's there's there's this mode of like reactionary anti

633
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 3: colonialism where it's like they see it as emasculating and

634
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: they see the problem with colonization was it stopped them

635
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 3: from being an empire. You see this a lot which

636
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 3: Chinese nationalism, where it's like, you know, like they're they're

637
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 3: they're their effective problem with like the century humiliation was

638
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,720
Speaker 3: that they didn't get to keep being the Ching empire

639
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 3: and get to keep colonizing other people. And that's like

640
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 3: a very I don't know, I think that that that's

641
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 3: a very common sort of like thing that happens when

642
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 3: it's this is a very common sort of like ideological

643
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 3: basis for sort of the right wing of anti colonial well,

644
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: I don't know, even calling the anticolonial movement is kind

645
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 3: of like being a bit generous, but yeah, yeah, I

646
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 3: think it's a very common form of sort of right

647
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 3: wing nationalism that emerges as a reaction to colonization.

648
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: What immediately came to mind to me, and what I

649
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: was thinking of was Zionism.

650
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that too.

651
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: Not to be fair, it was rather correct me if

652
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 2: I'm wrong. It was a movement that existed prior to

653
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 2: World War Two. No, yeah, yeah, right, And then you know,

654
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: the experiences of World War Two took place, and there

655
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 2: were different paths for the movement could have taken. And

656
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to invalidate the beginnings of the movement,

657
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 2: considering the experiences of Jewish people for centuries in Europe

658
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 2: and the oppression and the programs and so they faced.

659
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: But what we've seen the fruit of one particular path

660
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: that that movement undertook, and that path has led to

661
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: another nation struggling for its liberation, and that being the Palestinians.

662
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 2: The common example of distinction used is that of the

663
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: distinction between white nationalism and black nationalism. White nationalism having

664
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 2: a very clear history of violent supremacy and clualism, while

665
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 2: black nationalism was established in response to that experience of

666
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: subjugation and clualism and with the desire for self determination.

667
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 2: The program nationalism specifically among oppressed nations has generally seen

668
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 2: the oppressed nation as a united bloc national liberation movements,

669
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: nationalist movements. Nationalists movements typically ignore class, they ignore gender,

670
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 2: they ignore religion, and they ignore other divisions for the

671
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 2: most part, in favor of the development of an independent state,

672
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 2: which is usually some form of capitalist either a state

673
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 2: capitalist welfare capitalists, or a neoliberal capitalist. A Nationalism is

674
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 2: often weaponized and promoted by the ruined class in orders

675
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: to unite the oppressed classes with their domestic oppressors, replacing

676
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: foreign capitalists local capitalists, foreign generals local generals, and foreign

677
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 2: government officials with local officials, in a word, to conceal

678
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 2: the importance of class struggle. You see often in the

679
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: cases of newly independent countries there's almost a brief haze

680
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 2: of rather, let me speak not generally but from my

681
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: own knowledge of my own history. Trying to Bago gain

682
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 2: independence in nineteen sixty two from the British. This was

683
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: after a very brief period where we experimented with a

684
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 2: West Indian Federation, West Indies being a designation of the

685
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: Caribbean by the British. The federation failed and so Trinidad

686
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: and Tobago struck out on their own, and so trying

687
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 2: Tobago became an independent country in nineteen sixty two, and

688
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: there was really a sense of you know, joy and

689
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: jubile and celebration because of that freedom. You know, it

690
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 2: finally broke the shackles to the British. However, it was

691
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: a very recently, a very constitutional independence. You know, it

692
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 2: wasn't an independence brought forth by violent struggle. You know,

693
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: it wasn't a situation like Algeria. It was more so

694
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 2: the British carefully groomed a generation of politicians and political

695
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 2: leaders that would and business leaders that would take on

696
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: the role that they were fulfilling in order to continue

697
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 2: that colonial situation in under new management essentially and the

698
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 2: more familiar management. And that very quickly became apparent to

699
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 2: the population, which is why we had the Black Power

700
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: Revolution in nineteen seventy. It was borne on to the

701
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 2: frustration that new management when everything was pretty much the same.

702
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 2: Many people who experienced the successes of independence and of

703
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 2: nationalism that often bears out independence, they actually come to

704
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 2: recognize that nationalism was not enough nationalism has repeatedly failed

705
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 2: to solve poverty, to solve oppression and exploitation and suffer it.

706
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,240
Speaker 2: Or many states have become formally independent from their colonial

707
00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 2: masters thanks nationalist movements, new columnalism persevers and yet in

708
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: spite of the continuation of oppression and suffering post independence,

709
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 2: you end up seeing some people's response to that being

710
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 2: greater nationalism rather than an exploration of other options. So

711
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: it is this result of nationalism that has led to

712
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 2: its criticism and opposition by anarchists. Again, there's a difference

713
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 2: between nationalism and national liberation. But in that criticism of nationalism,

714
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,760
Speaker 2: I see some anarchists, while recognizing that they are class

715
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: divisions in the nation, end up ignoring national divisions in

716
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 2: a class in favor of some ideal and united working class.

717
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 2: The truth is that the oppressed classes of some nations

718
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: have benefited from the domination of the oppressed classes and

719
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: other nations, So let's not do class reductionism. Nations that

720
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: have had constant war waged against them for centuries tend

721
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 2: to turn to nationalism for the national liberation. That's obvious.

722
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: I think you know, you cut them some slack for

723
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 2: not thinking about the global working class when they are

724
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 2: literally under assault for the national identity. When you fighting

725
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 2: clonial administrators and foreign armies, you're not studying the class war,

726
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: which is why historically national liberation struggles use in nationalism

727
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 2: have ignored class divisions among the oppressed nation, but not always.

728
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 2: Black nationalism, for example, has always been a very diverse

729
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 2: political movement with several currents and opposing perspectives within it.

730
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: The common threat is of course, irresistance the predominance the

731
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 2: white supremisist system and the assolution of lacks of sovereignity,

732
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 2: recognizing that we have to free ourselves without wheat and

733
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: for permission, Recognizing we have to protect ourselves from the

734
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 2: continued assault of the empire of the empire, recognizing that

735
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 2: we can be proud of and love or bodies or

736
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 2: minds on our heritage, or rejection of your centrism. And

737
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 2: yet some manifestations of black nationalism have been reactionary, capitalistic, morphobic,

738
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 2: and patriarchal. Others have student stock opposition to those currents.

739
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: In particular, revolutionary black nationalism, unlike other forms of black nationalism,

740
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: has consistently stood in opposition to all forms of oppression,

741
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: including imperialism, white supremacy, and capitalism. In my view, and

742
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: as many other black anarchists have noted, revolutionary black nationalism

743
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 2: has a place in a struggle in conjunction with the

744
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 2: struggle against patriarchy, capitalism, and the state, as we aim

745
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: to prefigure world free of all forms of nomination. In

746
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 2: spite of our critiques of how nationalism tends to manifest,

747
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 2: it is not the only way to undertake national liberation.

748
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 2: We can incorpor rate other fights within that struggle. We

749
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,919
Speaker 2: can recognize the importance of national liberation whilst staying true

750
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 2: to all principles. Anarchism is an internationalist movement. It aims

751
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: for an entirely new world, not just a pocket of

752
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: change here and there. But we cannot be so focused

753
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 2: on that international struggle that we ignore the very vital

754
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 2: local and regional struggles taking place. Internationalism and class struggle

755
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 2: are not in contradiction to national liberation struggle. I believe

756
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 2: a real internationalism has to stand in solidarity with the

757
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 2: working class and peasantry everywhere, including those of oppressed nationalities. However,

758
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 2: at the same time, we cannot uncritically support national liberation struggles.

759
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: We cannot afford to just write a blank check of support.

760
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 2: It is necessary to engage politically national liberation movements and

761
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 2: engage in dialogues with all of their complexities and contradictions,

762
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 2: engaging with and uplifting the progressive elements within those national

763
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 2: liberation struggles while criticizing the reactionary elements within those struggles.

764
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,399
Speaker 3: I think it's it's incredibly important. I don't know if

765
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 3: intervene in them is the correct thing, is the best

766
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 3: way to put it, But like you know, from the

767
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 3: sort of like Eustasian perspective, it's like, yeah, so we

768
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 3: had we had three successful national liberation movements like next

769
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:50,760
Speaker 3: to each other, and then after they won their national

770
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 3: liberation movements, instead of like continuing the war against the

771
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 3: US or whatever, they went to war with each other.

772
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 5: So you know, you have to sort of like something something, something.

773
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 3: Very clearly went wrong with our natlib movements when well,

774
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 3: I mean obviously, like okay, something went very wrong with

775
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 3: Kahmara Rouge, but.

776
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: Like you know, that's that's understates and things.

777
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know that that's ity, but like you know,

778
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 3: they're they're like obviously that like that the Khmara Rouge

779
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 3: was fucked from the start. But you know the fact

780
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 3: that like the US and Vietnam, like the Vietnamese like

781
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 3: army finally defeats the American colonizers and then basically immediately

782
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 3: or invaded by China is a sign that like something

783
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 3: went terribly terribly wrong in the process of these struggles,

784
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 3: and that like, I don't know, if you're we're going

785
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 3: to do this properly, you have to make sure that

786
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 3: like this ship doesn't happen, because you know, it's it's

787
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 3: a just the product of this is just sort of

788
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 3: unfathomable human tragedy of a much of colonized people fucking

789
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 3: murdering each other for like nothing or you know, I

790
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 3: guess like China's obediate I don't know, geopolitical realignment with

791
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 3: the US and exchange for like industrial capital goods or

792
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 3: some shit. So you know, you gotta you gotta make

793
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 3: sure that doesn't happen.

794
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And that means intervening. Okay, like you said,

795
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 2: you don't want to say intervene in necessarily, but it

796
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 2: does require having these discussions rely on, like you don't

797
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 2: wait until after a preventable tragedy takes place to try

798
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 2: and prevent a tragedy. You know, if you're seeing signs

799
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 2: of that, the potential for that, you know, probably do

800
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 2: something about it. If one is so fragile that a

801
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 2: criticism of the way that it's structured, or a criticism

802
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: of an aspect of its ideology is enough to prevent

803
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 2: it from succeeding, or prevent it from collapsing into internal divisions,

804
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 2: whatever the case may be, then I don't think that

805
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 2: it is robust enough to handle the struggle, uh, for

806
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 2: a liberation.

807
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's like they're definitely you're definitely going to lose.

808
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if it's easy for an ally to criticize

809
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 2: and you know, maybe call something out and that's enough

810
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: for everything to crumble, how easy do you think it's

811
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 2: gonna be for like your actual enemy is to like

812
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 2: come in and shake things up and like dismantle the

813
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 2: organization from the inside. You know, if you if you

814
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 2: don't have room for dissent from you know, your allies,

815
00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 2: from your compatriots, then what about your what do you

816
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: think your enemies are going to try and capitalize on?

817
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: They're going to try and fuel and empower that dissent

818
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 2: and push it in different directions. So even further splinter

819
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 2: the movement. You know, it's it's it's complicated, it's it's difficult.

820
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: It's not something that I ever wanted to present myself

821
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 2: as having all the answers for. But you know, I

822
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 2: feel like certain things should be clear. You know, maybe

823
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 2: we should try and preventednessues from getting worse if you see, like,

824
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 2: for example, a cult of personality develop, and maybe do

825
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 2: something about it before that culture personality has you know,

826
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 2: guns on their side and the full power of the

827
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 2: state apparatus behind them. I mean that's just me though.

828
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:03,439
Speaker 2: A truly internationalist position, in my view, recognizes that human

829
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 2: unity can only be achieved through mutual respect, solidarity, alliance,

830
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: and discourse among people. International revolution would require participation in

831
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 2: national struggle for self determination and human dignity against imputerist domination.

832
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 2: It will require shift, as I always say, in our powers,

833
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 2: in our drives, in our consciousness. I think you want

834
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 2: to have star tooth national liberation struggles. It really starts

835
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 2: in that realm. And then also I think there are

836
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 2: ways that we can as allies intervene into aspect of

837
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 2: that process, you know, in confrontation, lending you know, material

838
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 2: support to protests or occupations, in non cooperation, supporting strike funds,

839
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 2: in prefiguration, providing resources. You don't want these acts of

840
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:04,919
Speaker 2: solidarity to get lost in NGOs or and organizations whatever

841
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 2: you're trying to get things. Actually, that's a whole tangent.

842
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 2: Let me just scratch that entirely. I'm going to go off.

843
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 2: I'll leave off by saying that if we oppose male

844
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 2: supremacy the patriarchy, we must support women's fight against it.

845
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean blandly supporting, you know, bourgeois liberal curss feminism.

846
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 2: It means listening to, learning from and collaboratively developing the

847
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 2: revolutionary feminist project to liberate all women from patriarchal domination

848
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: and ultimately all people. If workers aside a former union

849
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: in many cases and existing union is pro capitalist and hierarchical,

850
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 2: I had despite the structural issues with many unions, we

851
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 2: still stand with the workers against the bosses, even as

852
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 2: we try to convince them of the need for our transformation.

853
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 2: Those unions of union militancy for position to bureaucracy in

854
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 2: order to fully liberate them from class domination. Instead of

855
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 2: merely engaged in dialogue with the oppressors, we can walk

856
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 2: on tewg them. At the same time as what I'm

857
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 2: trying to say, we can act in solidarity without being

858
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 2: subservient to what we may perceive to be something that

859
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 2: goes against our values. Solidarity, as I like to view it,

860
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 2: is a discourse between people's about how we determine our

861
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 2: own freedom. We may disagree with certain things. We can

862
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 2: critique certain things we've seen again and again, certain mistakes

863
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: being made over and over again, and movements, and we

864
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 2: can call them out. But you know, you can have

865
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 2: your principles. You can engage, and you should engage in

866
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 2: the complexity and contradictions and national liberation struggles, offering critique

867
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 2: where needs be, resistant reactionary, capitalist, patriarchal and status elements

868
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 2: when they manifest, and providing support in any way that

869
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 2: you are able in any way that they request that

870
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 2: you be. People on some monoliths, think for yourself, will

871
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 2: power to all the people, usual things. That's it for me.

872
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,479
Speaker 2: You can support me on patuon dot com slash saying

873
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 2: true and follow me on YouTube at andreism. This has

874
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 2: been it grappen here with myself and Mia be something.

875
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 3: It's it could happen here. The thing that's happening is

876
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 3: that shinzu Wabe is still dead. One year on. That

877
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 3: man has not gone back from the dead. He is

878
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 3: still absolutely the most assassinated man of twenty twenty three,

879
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 3: twenty two. That well, you know, honestly, given how assassinated

880
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 3: he is, we're giving him the credit for being the

881
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 3: most asassinated man of twenty twenty three. And what was

882
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 3: interesting about this assassination and we talked about I talked

883
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 3: about this really briefly in my sort of intro thing

884
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 3: to the last episode that we ran about the Abbe assassination.

885
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 3: But this has been maybe the most successful political assassination

886
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 3: not done by the CIA in the last like seventy years,

887
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 3: like absolutely stunningly incredibly successful political assassination because specifically of

888
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 3: the political impact that the assassination has had on the

889
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 3: Unification Church probably better known as the Moonies, and how

890
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 3: it's been forcing the sort of Unification Church aligned ruling

891
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 3: Liberal Democratic Party of Japan to like have a serious

892
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 3: of embarrassing scandals where they reveal their incredible intertwinement with

893
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 3: the church apparatus and all of the culture they've been doing.

894
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 3: And with me to talk about this is Alisa Majub

895
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 3: who's an ex Unification Church member who got out and

896
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 3: who works with Deprogramming Imperialism, which is a group that

897
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 3: tell us the sort of still untold story of how

898
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 3: the Unification Church has worked with the CIA and the

899
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 3: Korean CIA and enormous parts of the sort of the

900
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 3: apparatus of the American imperial war machine to cause untold

901
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 3: suffering on the world. Lisa, Welcome, Welcome to the show. Welcome,

902
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:21,919
Speaker 3: welcome back.

903
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 6: Thank you appreciate it. I'm glad to be back.

904
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you about this because

905
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 3: we didn't really There's been a lot of very very

906
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 3: interesting stuff happening in the last couple of months in Japan.

907
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 3: But in order to do that, I think we need

908
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 3: to sort of talk about what this assassination was actually about.

909
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 3: So the shooter, Tetsuya Yamagami, killed Abe because he couldn't

910
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 3: get to a He was trying to kill a high

911
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 3: ranking Unification Church guy and he like couldn't get to him.

912
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:58,560
Speaker 3: And the reason he was trying to do this is

913
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 3: that his mom had had given they like seventy thousand

914
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 3: yen to the church. Co'm getting the number right, and

915
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 3: had basically like you know, like this is I yeah,

916
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 3: I wanted to talk to you a bit about this

917
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 3: before we go into more of the au bas stuff

918
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 3: about how the church's financial abuse works and how you know.

919
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 5: Like how how how how.

920
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 3: This person's mom was compelled to sort of like literally

921
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 3: give away all of their money to this cult.

922
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 7: Right, Well, I would say it's sort of multi pronged

923
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 7: approach that they use. They'll basically, oh, gosh, okay. So

924
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 7: one of the main things that they'll do is they

925
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 7: will charge people for ancestor liberation.

926
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 6: Basically is that they'll say that.

927
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 7: Your ancestors are going to go to heaven if you

928
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 7: pay us this amount of money. And they'll have people

929
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 7: do that for like generations and generations back in order

930
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 7: to have their ancestors go to heaven.

931
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 6: They do other spiritual sales, like the book.

932
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 7: There was this one book from years ago that they

933
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 7: they they charged people exorbitant fees on just because it

934
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 7: was like some sort of like providential book of some sort.

935
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 6: So spiritual sales are definitely like a main, a main

936
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 6: focal point of this.

937
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 7: Another thing that will happen is that like they'll they'll

938
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 7: labor traffic people just straight up into like a lot

939
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 7: of the time they would do fundraising teams where they

940
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 7: would have people go out sell little trinkets and things

941
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 7: on the street or flowers, uh, and come back and

942
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 7: then give all that money to the coffers of the church.

943
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 7: Another thing that they do is tithes. You're expected to

944
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:43,800
Speaker 7: give a certain amount of your income basically to the church,

945
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 7: and if you don't, it's like they're not going to

946
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 7: be like they're there. It's like certainly, you know, like

947
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 7: you need to do better because you're not you're not

948
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 7: doing enough for God kind of shit. So they have

949
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:59,679
Speaker 7: like a myriad ways that they really push people into

950
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 7: spending money on them in their organizations, as well as

951
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:10,160
Speaker 7: having a ton of very successful businesses and capital ventures

952
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 7: and whatnot. They make guns, you name it, and so

953
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 7: it all sort of comes together just to this like

954
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 7: very large wheelhouse of capital.

955
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:26,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Japan's so so I think I should probably

956
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 3: I'm realizing I'm probably assuming that everyone who's listening to

957
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,040
Speaker 3: this has listened to the previous stuff we've done on

958
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 3: the Infocation Church, and I don't know, I don't know

959
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 3: how true that is. So I guess we should talk

960
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 3: a little bit we should back up a little bit

961
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 3: and talk about just what the Inifogation church is, and

962
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 3: I guess also the importance of Japan to it, because Yeah,

963
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 3: from everything that I've understood, Japan's like, you know, like

964
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 3: they have a bunch of sort of businesses that they

965
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,639
Speaker 3: run in Korea, but Japan's kind of like their chief

966
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 3: financial nexus. Like the last thing I saw, I think

967
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,839
Speaker 3: it was like like they e'rected like one hundred million dollars.

968
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 3: How did Japan in the last few years.

969
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:06,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, they they get, They get so much.

970
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:10,759
Speaker 7: That's their main it's their main financial powerhouse within the church.

971
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 7: And part of that is because the church claims that

972
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:18,559
Speaker 7: because of the occupation of Korea that Japanese members have

973
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 7: to pay more indemnity monetarily, so everything with like you know,

974
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 7: all of the spiritual sales and stuff are just like

975
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 7: exorbitantly higher for those members, and that is just an

976
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:33,440
Speaker 7: easy way for them to make a lot more money.

977
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, which which is always a part of this thing.

978
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:39,040
Speaker 3: I thought is really interesting because you know, the church,

979
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 3: and we've talked about this sort of a length in

980
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 3: other places, but they are like hardcore right wing anti communists, yes,

981
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 3: and like you know, have backed a lot of I

982
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 3: mean just desk squads all over the world they backed

983
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 3: they like they wound up backing poll Pot because like

984
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 3: doing I Ran contrary twice wasn't enough for them. But

985
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 3: a bunch yeah, yeah, it's like on once you once, once,

986
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:08,919
Speaker 3: you once you've once you've done a RAN contract multiple times,

987
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 3: like you've got to there are very few places you

988
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 3: can go other than like into polepot. But I think

989
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 3: I think there's there's an interesting kind of game they're

990
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 3: playing here because you know, on the one hand, so

991
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:24,480
Speaker 3: the party they're allied with in Japan, I mean there's

992
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 3: like several parties they work with, but their biggest backer

993
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 3: in the government is is the Liberal Democratic Party. And

994
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 3: you know, if you want to hear me talk about

995
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 3: the Liberal Democratic Party for a long long time, go

996
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 3: listen to my Kishi episodes on Behind the Bastards, because

997
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 3: that guy did one. So No, Masuki Kishi is the

998
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 3: founder of the Liberal Democratic Party. He is a just

999
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 3: horrific war criminal. I did like mass enslavement stuff like that,

1000
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 3: Like truly truly awful guy. He's like he's also the

1001
01:11:57,439 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 3: guy who just was in charge of like running the

1002
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 3: Japanese war machine dream World War two, and his grandson

1003
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:08,680
Speaker 3: is is U shinzo Abe. But there's this, I think

1004
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 3: it's this interesting dynamic where you have, on the one hand,

1005
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 3: the Moonies are allying with these right wing guys who

1006
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 3: are either just straight up like like a lot of

1007
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 3: these people they're allying with are straight up like Nanjing denialists, right,

1008
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 3: they're like you know, they're they're they're people whose lines

1009
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,400
Speaker 3: on Japanese colonization or either that it was good or

1010
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:27,960
Speaker 3: we didn't do any crimes.

1011
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah.

1012
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,799
Speaker 7: Yeah, So it comes off pretty pretty you know, boldfaced

1013
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 7: and ironic and just very obvious that this is a

1014
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 7: money ploy.

1015
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:37,439
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. But but I think it's interesting kind of

1016
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 3: politically too, because you know, like if you if you

1017
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 3: on the one hand push denihilism, but then on the

1018
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 3: other hand, you turn around and you're the only people

1019
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 3: going like, hey, look at all these crimes your government did,

1020
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 3: Like don't you owe like Korea so much? I feel

1021
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 3: like that's like it's a really like terrible and like

1022
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:59,679
Speaker 3: it's just unbelievably cynical way of exploiting, like the exploiting

1023
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 3: just the whole ord is of Japanese imperialism to get.

1024
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:08,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, it's it's very underhanded, especially giving that I

1025
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:10,840
Speaker 7: feel like there is been some evidence that I mean

1026
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:15,639
Speaker 7: at least early church members, uh and those around them

1027
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 7: may have been collaborators at the time as well. So yeah,

1028
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 7: it's very disingenuine and a completely twisted way to go

1029
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 7: about anything.

1030
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:29,639
Speaker 6: But people people buy into it and heavily.

1031
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 3: So yeah, one of the ways they've they've sort of

1032
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 3: done this is allying with with the Liberal Democratic Party.

1033
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:40,320
Speaker 3: So nobody Takishi, who again is Abbi's grandfather, like, is

1034
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 3: the guy who brought the Unification Church into the party.

1035
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:46,799
Speaker 3: And this was kind of a controversial thing because okay

1036
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 3: it was. It was kind of a controversial thing, not

1037
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 3: because the Unification Church is a cult, but because the

1038
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:55,799
Speaker 3: Unification Church is Korean, which is like a dynamic that's

1039
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 3: at play here and this whole thing, which is you

1040
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:01,600
Speaker 3: have this weird okay. So there's like two kinds of

1041
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 3: people who are anti Unification Church in Japan. It's you

1042
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 3: have like the leftists who are anti Unification Church because they're

1043
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:09,519
Speaker 3: a cults and because they're you know, like a sort

1044
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:12,800
Speaker 3: of Cat's Paul of American imperialism and then you have

1045
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 3: like these ultra right wingers who are like, these people

1046
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 3: are Koreans and so we hate them, which is like

1047
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 3: a I don't know, truly terrifying Japan dynamic Buthi. Kish's

1048
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,559
Speaker 3: able to sort of overcome this and he okay. So

1049
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:29,840
Speaker 3: this is the part that I don't know if you

1050
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 3: know more about this than I do. So every the

1051
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 3: stuff that I've seen about this talks about the Unification

1052
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 3: Church and the Yakuza kind of hammering out a deal

1053
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 3: to allow the Unification Church to like do the specific

1054
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 3: kinds of scams. And I've always assumed that Kishi broke

1055
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 3: at this because No Basika Kishi also is very very

1056
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,160
Speaker 3: well connected with the Yakuza. He's been connected with the

1057
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:57,759
Speaker 3: yakuza since like the twenties and thirties, So I always

1058
01:14:57,800 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 3: assumed that he brokeer this deal. But I'm not in

1059
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 3: talking sure, I don't know. I don't know if you've

1060
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 3: run into anything about it.

1061
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 7: So I know that some of it has to do

1062
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 7: with Asami Kuboki, I believe, But I wouldn't be surprised

1063
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 7: if initial links do come through Kishi, I wouldn't. I

1064
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:20,600
Speaker 7: would not be surprised about that I don't know where exactly, like,

1065
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 7: you know, initially that would make sense.

1066
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 6: That would make sense.

1067
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:29,160
Speaker 7: Honestly because like going back to the sort of end

1068
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 7: of the Korean War and World War two, basically how

1069
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 7: all these you know, prisoners that were Class A war

1070
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:42,599
Speaker 7: criminals got you know, they got let off the books

1071
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:44,879
Speaker 7: because they decided to work for America now.

1072
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:48,560
Speaker 6: And and and basically.

1073
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,320
Speaker 7: These guys were the first guys who started like funding

1074
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 7: and financing and like supporting the church with like the

1075
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:00,840
Speaker 7: help of like MacArthur and stuff. And MacArthur of course

1076
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 7: is the one who got Moon out of prison.

1077
01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean there's a lot of sort of

1078
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 3: there's a lot of very very the the the LDP

1079
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 3: as a party is sort of directly like like directly

1080
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 3: it is formed by the Dullest Brothers interviewing with the

1081
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:17,760
Speaker 3: sort of Japanese right and telling them like, you guys

1082
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 3: all have to like, you guys all have to put

1083
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,400
Speaker 3: aside your differences and form this party so as to

1084
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:26,599
Speaker 3: stop like even like a vaguely centered left government from

1085
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:27,240
Speaker 3: coming to power.

1086
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:28,080
Speaker 5: Right.

1087
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:31,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the connections here are really deep. Like Kishi.

1088
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:34,400
Speaker 5: Kishi literally sells.

1089
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 3: Unification Church their first building in Japan and that building

1090
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:41,599
Speaker 3: is like his residence, so they are they are even

1091
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 3: deep and in it for the long haul.

1092
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:48,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, and the multi generation yeah yeah, and this has

1093
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,840
Speaker 8: been you know, sort of going on for a very

1094
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 8: long time, even after like Kishi's like specific kind of

1095
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 8: like fascist corruption faction kind of eventually falls out of

1096
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:03,760
Speaker 8: favor in like the eighties because they they they kind

1097
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:05,519
Speaker 8: of a series of deals with the Americans that are like

1098
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 8: too corrupt for the US that ends with like ends

1099
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 8: with a fascist porn star I like dry attempting to

1100
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 8: do a Kamakazi run.

1101
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 3: And a Yaka is a boss by flying a plane

1102
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 3: into his house, which is which is a whole thing.

1103
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 3: But you know, so that this kind of gets us

1104
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 3: to many generations of LDP, which is the Liberal Democratic Party,

1105
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 3: which has been the ruling party of Japan for most

1106
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 3: of it's sort of modern history. Many generations did this

1107
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 3: go by, and you know there's there's I think a

1108
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 3: really incredible symbiosis here where like the LDP has like

1109
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 3: consistently gotten them out of trouble of like stuff that

1110
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:48,200
Speaker 3: like like they're they're you know, there's a famous example

1111
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:50,839
Speaker 3: where Moon like shouldn't have been able to enter Japan

1112
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 3: because he would have been convicted of a felony in

1113
01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:57,040
Speaker 3: the US. And you know the and there's also like

1114
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,080
Speaker 3: there's been a series of investigations into the Church have

1115
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:02,479
Speaker 3: just gotten squashed because the LDPOLE know.

1116
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, they're too powerful, They're they're in with the guys,

1117
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 7: are running things.

1118
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 3: And I think this just kind of brings us to

1119
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 3: the immediate Abbe stuff, which I think is really interesting,

1120
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 3: which is that like Abbe, okay, so long ago, in

1121
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 3: a galaxy, far far away dream Kishi's generation, the CIA

1122
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:26,880
Speaker 3: was like literally running LDP elections like this is the

1123
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 3: CIA would go in with individual candidates and they would

1124
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:31,080
Speaker 3: go in to sort of play the vote. They would

1125
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:33,200
Speaker 3: go in and they would have like CIA assets doing

1126
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:36,040
Speaker 3: canvassing for them. And what I think is really interesting

1127
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 3: is that like from what I what I've seen, it

1128
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 3: seems like Abbe basically replaced the CIA with the Moonies

1129
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 3: in the two thousands, where he was having the church

1130
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,520
Speaker 3: do exactly the same thing the CIA did of like

1131
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:50,559
Speaker 3: like hey, if you're ally with us, we will like

1132
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 3: you know, we will like go district by district and

1133
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:55,599
Speaker 3: campaign for you and like use our influence networks.

1134
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:57,879
Speaker 6: It's funny how that keeps happening.

1135
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:03,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, hmmm, Yeah, it's really the sort of long arc

1136
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,920
Speaker 9: of But it's funny too because it's like like quite

1137
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:11,599
Speaker 9: frankly like at this point, like from the CIA's point

1138
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,360
Speaker 9: of view, like it's utterly unclear to me.

1139
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 3: If it matters at all whether the LDP or like

1140
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:20,479
Speaker 3: their absolutely identical opposition party like comes into power. But

1141
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 3: there's still just this kind of like like the ghost

1142
01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:26,640
Speaker 3: of the CIA from like when they actually had to

1143
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 3: stop the communists in like the cifty sixties and seventies,

1144
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 3: I guess a bit through the eighties. It's just sort

1145
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,680
Speaker 3: of still there and still doing like all of the

1146
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:43,479
Speaker 3: same things that Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know who else?

1147
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:47,360
Speaker 3: Actually I don't think they've ever advertised on this show,

1148
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:50,680
Speaker 3: but you know who probably wouldn't be that out of

1149
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 3: place given the Reagan coin people. I don't know, it's

1150
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 3: it's ads, it's we're doing them. I hope they don't

1151
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 3: suck and we're back. Okay, So this is something I

1152
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:05,400
Speaker 3: wanted to ask you. How So, in the last few months,

1153
01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:10,080
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of developments in terms of the

1154
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 3: reaction to the Church in Japan and how the Church

1155
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:14,799
Speaker 3: has been reacting to the sort of swings in public

1156
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:17,000
Speaker 3: sentiment that have been happening. So yeah, I guess I

1157
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:20,880
Speaker 3: want to tesk you. So, how what's been happening inside

1158
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 3: the Japanese government since all of the stufface sort of

1159
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:24,880
Speaker 3: been coming out?

1160
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 7: So uh, it seems to be that there has been

1161
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:36,719
Speaker 7: quite a kerfuffle because quite a few members of both

1162
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:40,160
Speaker 7: the LDP and other parties have ties to the Unification Church.

1163
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,880
Speaker 7: So I've got some stats here, and forgive me if

1164
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 7: these are not the most current. I tried my best

1165
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 7: to find the most current, the most current numbers out

1166
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:52,760
Speaker 7: here about this, but I was having a little bit

1167
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:58,120
Speaker 7: of trouble due to translations. So let's see, I've got

1168
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 7: at least three hundred thirty four prefectural Assembly members in

1169
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 7: Japan have had dealings with the Unification Church or its affiliates,

1170
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 7: with over eighty percent of them belonging to the ruling LDP,

1171
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:15,799
Speaker 7: according to Kyoto News, So Prime Minister of Fumiyo Kushita

1172
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:18,080
Speaker 7: said that the government was in the final stage of

1173
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 7: considering whether to seek a court order to dispand the

1174
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:26,120
Speaker 7: Unification Church. But also, you know his new cabinet, Well,

1175
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 7: they've got some ties. Okay, at least four lawmakers who

1176
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:32,840
Speaker 7: admitted having ties to the church. The number of LVP

1177
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 7: lawmakers was ties to the churches around one hundred and eighty.

1178
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 6: And the second Tenary General has.

1179
01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:42,639
Speaker 7: Said that one hundred and seventy nine of the three

1180
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:47,600
Speaker 7: hundred and seventy nine parliamentarians reported with links to the

1181
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:51,479
Speaker 7: church and related organizations. And these relationships have ranged from

1182
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:55,000
Speaker 7: attending church events to accepting donations and receiving elections support.

1183
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:56,839
Speaker 6: And then at least.

1184
01:21:56,680 --> 01:21:59,640
Speaker 7: Three hundred and thirty four prefectural councils had contact with

1185
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:03,240
Speaker 7: the US seeing related words. So there's a lot going

1186
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:07,360
Speaker 7: on that basically is, there's a lot has come out

1187
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:11,280
Speaker 7: about who is involved. However, the u SEE is still

1188
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:14,720
Speaker 7: pretty much just denying everything. The pre trial proceedings for

1189
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 7: Yamagami began on October thirteenth. It's going to be closed door,

1190
01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:22,000
Speaker 7: so it'll probably be a while a little bit until

1191
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 7: the information trickles out about that. Hopefully they'll have some

1192
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 7: like I don't know if like what closed door means

1193
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 7: in that specific situation, I still have journalists in there,

1194
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:34,479
Speaker 7: not hopefully, but yeah, a lot has been coming out

1195
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:38,320
Speaker 7: and people have been calling for a lot of change,

1196
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 7: it seems, but how much is.

1197
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 6: Actually going to happen, especially.

1198
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:46,519
Speaker 7: When they're saying now it's going to be like maybe

1199
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 7: one to three years for the deliberation on the case

1200
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,800
Speaker 7: for dissolving the church, which means that the church will

1201
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 7: have ample time to move all of its funds and

1202
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 7: set up new new lines of money funneling.

1203
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 3: Basically, yeah, which I think, Yeah, I don't know, like

1204
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 3: I I have, I have very little faith that even

1205
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:12,040
Speaker 3: even this sort of like outswing of public pressure is

1206
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 3: going to like actually seriously cause a liberal Democratic party

1207
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 3: to like really go after the church because, like I mean,

1208
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 3: like Abe, like part of the reason Abe got assassinated

1209
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:24,880
Speaker 3: was that, like I think, like in twenty twenty two,

1210
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:27,240
Speaker 3: he he get he like he was like he like

1211
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:30,760
Speaker 3: said a video of of like of a speech like

1212
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 3: to a like to a man Elaine Unification Church, Evette.

1213
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:36,200
Speaker 3: I think it was the same one that it might

1214
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:37,680
Speaker 3: have been the same one that Trump said it too.

1215
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 3: Maybe it was it was a different event, but like yeah,

1216
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 3: like that, I don't know. I have a difficult time,

1217
01:23:44,240 --> 01:23:46,960
Speaker 3: I don't know, kind of like believing that they're the

1218
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:50,280
Speaker 3: like this, like even if this crackdown does come that's

1219
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:52,920
Speaker 3: going to be effective. I don't know what your thoughts

1220
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 3: on that.

1221
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:59,200
Speaker 7: I'm excited that there is some movement in that direction. However,

1222
01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 7: I do worry that it won't really make as much

1223
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 7: of a dent into the functioning of the movement as

1224
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 7: some people think it could, given that there seems to

1225
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 7: be a lot of time for them to recuperate funds,

1226
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:15,639
Speaker 7: and they've been doing a lot of things it seems

1227
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 7: to make up for funds, as well as the fact

1228
01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:22,720
Speaker 7: that they already just have so much money and so

1229
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:25,560
Speaker 7: many funds in the first place. It's hard to say

1230
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,080
Speaker 7: how much they even have and how much this would

1231
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:29,799
Speaker 7: make a dent into it were.

1232
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:32,240
Speaker 6: It to happen, So it's hard to say.

1233
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 7: And I also do worry that that'll just sort of

1234
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:42,160
Speaker 7: incentivize them to sort of further radicalize people in a

1235
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:46,120
Speaker 7: very dangerous far right direction and sort of going into that.

1236
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:48,439
Speaker 7: There have been some sort of recent developments within the

1237
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:52,200
Speaker 7: church since all of this has come out, basically, and

1238
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:56,200
Speaker 7: people are calling for some sort of justice and some

1239
01:24:56,240 --> 01:25:00,880
Speaker 7: sort of understanding of what's going on, which you know,

1240
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:05,720
Speaker 7: the church continues to deny, but recently Hawk Jahan who

1241
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 7: is now the leader of the Mainline Church, has been

1242
01:25:09,040 --> 01:25:12,240
Speaker 7: meeting with the youth in multiple countries UH and recently

1243
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:15,679
Speaker 7: at Japan, she sat down and told them that they

1244
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 7: are a Kamakazi group basically to save Japan in the world.

1245
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:23,360
Speaker 7: So I can't imagine it's ever really, it like, it

1246
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 7: never has ended well when somebody says that to an

1247
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:29,679
Speaker 7: occult leader says that to their constituents, it never goes well.

1248
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 7: And you know, acts of violence against oneself like self

1249
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 7: emolation or other things murder have not been you know,

1250
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:44,680
Speaker 7: out of the realm of things that people in the

1251
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 7: Unification of Church have done in the past. So it

1252
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:51,800
Speaker 7: does kind of worry me. And she's actually hot. Jahan

1253
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 7: is actually going to be meeting I believe it's the

1254
01:25:55,960 --> 01:26:00,200
Speaker 7: weekend of the seventh UH in Vegas with the Youth

1255
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:02,040
Speaker 7: of America. So I wonder if she's going to be

1256
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:03,599
Speaker 7: saying similar things at that event.

1257
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:08,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that wouldn't surprise me, it would.

1258
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:10,679
Speaker 7: Seem I have a feeling it seems to be since

1259
01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:12,880
Speaker 7: she's been going around and meeting, because she's also met

1260
01:26:12,920 --> 01:26:15,800
Speaker 7: with the youth of Europe in the Middle East, that

1261
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:18,040
Speaker 7: there's like a concerted effort here to sort of get

1262
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:22,960
Speaker 7: youth engagement up, which leads me into a couple of

1263
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 7: other things here. I know that for a couple of

1264
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:30,960
Speaker 7: years now, the Global Peace Foundation, which is under Preston Moon,

1265
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:35,600
Speaker 7: has been involved with like different like music festivals and

1266
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 7: things with K pop artists and stuff. But recently there

1267
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:43,040
Speaker 7: was actually an event this year is supposed to happen

1268
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:46,799
Speaker 7: called twenty twenty three Korean Dream Festa for Korean United,

1269
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:50,040
Speaker 7: and then the original poster it was said that it

1270
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:53,559
Speaker 7: was Global Peace Foundation that was one of the groups

1271
01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:56,840
Speaker 7: that was leading this. A lot of fans have soaken up,

1272
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 7: and I know at least one of the groups has

1273
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:03,360
Speaker 7: pulled out, so clearly at least within that within that

1274
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:06,280
Speaker 7: prong of the U see that there's there's there's some

1275
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 7: very active like trying to outreach to the youth, which

1276
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:12,080
Speaker 7: I think I think I would be able to say

1277
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:14,680
Speaker 7: is pretty across the board at this point. I think

1278
01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:16,920
Speaker 7: they're all trying some new strategies because they see that

1279
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:19,880
Speaker 7: people are leaving, and especially with the number of people

1280
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 7: that have been speaking up lately, they really want to

1281
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:22,920
Speaker 7: keep those numbers.

1282
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:26,639
Speaker 6: And engage new people as well. Part of this also.

1283
01:27:26,439 --> 01:27:28,600
Speaker 7: Makes me think that might be why Sean Moon is

1284
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:30,479
Speaker 7: doing the sort of like Maga rapper thing.

1285
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:34,560
Speaker 3: I don't know, yeah, you know, because he could he

1286
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:41,120
Speaker 3: could just be like it's possible, but yeah.

1287
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:42,679
Speaker 7: But it does strike me as something that's like, hmm,

1288
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:44,679
Speaker 7: maybe this is a way to get kids into the movement,

1289
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:47,640
Speaker 7: you know, Like I don't really know. Part of me

1290
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:50,120
Speaker 7: is also wondered why if if that is part of

1291
01:27:50,160 --> 01:27:53,000
Speaker 7: why Caleb Moppin has showed up at Mooney things now.

1292
01:27:54,320 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 10: Like yeah, just yeah, uh that guy, that guy, But like, yeah,

1293
01:28:03,360 --> 01:28:07,479
Speaker 10: it just makes me wonder about like different onboarding ramps

1294
01:28:07,479 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 10: that might be being tapped because there's potentially, you know,

1295
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:14,439
Speaker 10: like a little bit of a lull here and there's.

1296
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:17,200
Speaker 6: Going to be a financial dip in this specific chain.

1297
01:28:18,080 --> 01:28:21,960
Speaker 6: I don't really know. I can't claim to I have suspicions.

1298
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:24,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it makes I think as

1299
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:25,840
Speaker 3: a theory, it makes sense, like you, I mean, the

1300
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 3: ufcation churches, the Unification Church has always tried to sort

1301
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:34,320
Speaker 3: of stick itself into like different cultural trends, and I think, right,

1302
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:37,080
Speaker 3: I like for what I voted stood like, I don't

1303
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:38,880
Speaker 3: I don't think the last time they really tried the

1304
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:41,479
Speaker 3: U strategy worked very well, like in the late twenty

1305
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:42,519
Speaker 3: early twenty tens.

1306
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:45,439
Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, no, it didn't. It didn't work particularly well.

1307
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 7: I wonder, however, you know, times are changing. If they

1308
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:52,160
Speaker 7: happen to get one or two good strategists on board,

1309
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:55,680
Speaker 7: that could change everything, honestly, But I also don't necessarily

1310
01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 7: know that this is going to go well for them,

1311
01:28:57,080 --> 01:29:03,720
Speaker 7: seeing is that they're deeply uncool. It's a real big issue,

1312
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:07,800
Speaker 7: like that's the main issue for like trying to get

1313
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:12,719
Speaker 7: youth engagement up. I feel like, you know, I don't know, Uh,

1314
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 7: there's only so cool you can make it sound, which

1315
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 7: is nothing like no.

1316
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it is interesting that they're kind

1317
01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:23,479
Speaker 3: of like the mop in things specifically is really interesting

1318
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 3: because it's it's it seems like, I don't know, it

1319
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 3: seems like they're trying to tap into this like just

1320
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:33,920
Speaker 3: like whatever weird currents of like new right like stuff

1321
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 3: they can get their hands on.

1322
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:38,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, it seems like that honestly to me too. And

1323
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:42,000
Speaker 7: it's also specifically ironic considering that Caleb used to hit

1324
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 7: me up for information on the Moonies a lot before I.

1325
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:45,920
Speaker 6: Figured that was right. He was a creep.

1326
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, and uh before I figured out he was

1327
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:51,000
Speaker 7: a creep and like not somebody I wanted to be

1328
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 7: talking to.

1329
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:53,479
Speaker 6: So he knows all this shit about them and.

1330
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:58,559
Speaker 7: Continues and like willfully yeah, is engaging with them, which

1331
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:00,840
Speaker 7: to me is just like mm hmmm.

1332
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:03,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's like if you if you're if you're gonna

1333
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:05,120
Speaker 3: sell out, like at least at least sell out into

1334
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:07,559
Speaker 3: a podcast, don't sell out to a fucking cult like

1335
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:08,479
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

1336
01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:13,000
Speaker 6: Come on, it's just ridiculous stuff.

1337
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:13,479
Speaker 7: I don't know.

1338
01:30:13,760 --> 01:30:15,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really terrible.

1339
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:19,280
Speaker 6: I don't know, like, yeah, it's the mashup we didn't need.

1340
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:22,000
Speaker 3: And this I think this has been eased to something

1341
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:24,040
Speaker 3: else I wanted to ask about. So other than the

1342
01:30:24,120 --> 01:30:27,960
Speaker 3: sort of like youth strategy stuff, has there been a

1343
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:31,519
Speaker 3: reaction from like the Rod of Iron ministry or like

1344
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 3: the other sort of like uh, splinter fractions of the

1345
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 3: church to the to the stuff that's been happening in

1346
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:40,880
Speaker 3: Japan like have and also ask the everything like as best,

1347
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 3: like everything that I've seen seems suggest that the if

1348
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 3: they were gonna like if they were gonna disband the church,

1349
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:50,280
Speaker 3: it would only be the main branch. Has there been like,

1350
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:53,280
Speaker 3: has the statement going after the other branches too, or.

1351
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:57,200
Speaker 7: So in that respect, I am actually still kind of

1352
01:30:57,280 --> 01:31:00,439
Speaker 7: unclear and have some research questions I need to on

1353
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:04,000
Speaker 7: that matter. As far as I've been aware, the other

1354
01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:07,599
Speaker 7: branches have been reasonably quiet about it. It doesn't mean

1355
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:10,760
Speaker 7: that they're not internally doing things. I know that they

1356
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:14,520
Speaker 7: both have large populations in Japan as well of membership,

1357
01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:17,719
Speaker 7: so it would make sense that they would be trying

1358
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:18,760
Speaker 7: to figure something out.

1359
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:20,559
Speaker 6: However, I don't actually know if.

1360
01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:25,000
Speaker 7: Legally they are going to be gone after the same

1361
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 7: way as the mainline church, and that's something I just

1362
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 7: need to clear up myself. But honestly, they haven't been

1363
01:31:32,439 --> 01:31:35,559
Speaker 7: speaking as much about it as I thought they might.

1364
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 6: That doesn't mean that they're not. It also just might

1365
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:39,400
Speaker 6: mean that they're not publishing it, you know.

1366
01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:42,960
Speaker 7: But part of me also wants to know if the

1367
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:45,760
Speaker 7: reason that you know, hak Jahan is coming to America

1368
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:48,360
Speaker 7: that certain weekend is because that's exact same weekend that

1369
01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:51,080
Speaker 7: the Rod of Iron Freedom Festival is happening, and she

1370
01:31:51,200 --> 01:31:53,880
Speaker 7: just doesn't want to get beheaded by her sons who

1371
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:57,639
Speaker 7: want to behead her. So yeah, because it's like, ah,

1372
01:31:57,640 --> 01:31:59,680
Speaker 7: she knows they're they're doing that weekend. I mean, I

1373
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:03,320
Speaker 7: don't know, like that's it's just maybe silly speculation. But

1374
01:32:03,360 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 7: at the same time, they have literally said that they

1375
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:05,559
Speaker 7: want to behead her.

1376
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:08,519
Speaker 3: So yeah, I wouldn't be.

1377
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 6: From them if I were her.

1378
01:32:11,479 --> 01:32:14,679
Speaker 3: Yeah that that that that that entire fight is really

1379
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:19,519
Speaker 3: a like like no matter it's either a like the

1380
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:22,559
Speaker 3: eat pop or let them fight or the no matter

1381
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:24,880
Speaker 3: who wins, we lose kind of thing.

1382
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:29,360
Speaker 6: Right, It's just quite a mess.

1383
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:32,160
Speaker 7: Like I can say that I have a lot of

1384
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 7: family drama, but nothing compared to this.

1385
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, just wild. Yeah.

1386
01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:43,559
Speaker 7: So there was a show that was originally going to

1387
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:45,720
Speaker 7: be called The Devil's Whispers that was to be aired

1388
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:49,160
Speaker 7: in Japan, but of course the UC complained a little bit,

1389
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:52,080
Speaker 7: and they said that the program included a dramatization.

1390
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:53,920
Speaker 6: They said that basically, they.

1391
01:32:54,040 --> 01:32:59,200
Speaker 7: They claimed that this dramatized program which was showing past

1392
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:02,439
Speaker 7: tense of the group to recruit believers, including uh hiding

1393
01:33:02,439 --> 01:33:05,320
Speaker 7: the group's name in door to door sales taxics designs

1394
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:10,439
Speaker 7: disguised as charitable. First of all, in HK, the channel

1395
01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 7: that was going to air it, first of all, change

1396
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:15,640
Speaker 7: the name to Dangerous Whispers, instead of the Devil's Whispers,

1397
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:18,720
Speaker 7: But the church also tried to tried to make them

1398
01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:23,280
Speaker 7: cancel like the show from happening and airing. As far

1399
01:33:23,280 --> 01:33:25,000
Speaker 7: as I'm aware, I think it actually did air a

1400
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:26,440
Speaker 7: couple of nights ago though.

1401
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:29,720
Speaker 3: Glad gle g glad they got it through. But like

1402
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:33,160
Speaker 3: the fact, yeah the name changed, like really.

1403
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:39,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm like, still, it's pretty ridiculous, Like maybe they

1404
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 7: changed it, but I think what they had said it

1405
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:43,360
Speaker 7: was like sometimes in post production will change the name

1406
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:45,600
Speaker 7: for whatever reason or something like that. But it's like,

1407
01:33:46,160 --> 01:33:49,040
Speaker 7: are you sure it's not because the church complained.

1408
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:54,800
Speaker 3: Like yeah, yeah, so I don't really know. Well I guess,

1409
01:33:54,800 --> 01:33:56,280
Speaker 3: I guess. I guess no. One more thing I wanted

1410
01:33:56,280 --> 01:33:58,200
Speaker 3: to talk a bit about, which is that, And this

1411
01:33:58,320 --> 01:34:01,880
Speaker 3: is something we've been seeing already, is people talking about like, oh,

1412
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:05,360
Speaker 3: you shouldn't spand the church on religious freedom grounds. And

1413
01:34:05,400 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 3: that's something that the U see has been really really

1414
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:10,800
Speaker 3: successful at sort of hiding behind you when anyone tries

1415
01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:13,160
Speaker 3: to go after them, like they did this in the

1416
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:16,560
Speaker 3: seventies and eighties, when there were campaigns to like prosecute

1417
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:18,400
Speaker 3: them for just the crimes they were doing. Was that

1418
01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:21,120
Speaker 3: a bunch of sort of like like not just not

1419
01:34:21,160 --> 01:34:23,280
Speaker 3: just right wing groups, but sort of like like like

1420
01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:26,479
Speaker 3: civil libertarian groups, like like we're like, oh, you can't

1421
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:28,320
Speaker 3: do this because if you if if they go after

1422
01:34:28,320 --> 01:34:29,840
Speaker 3: the UFI Gacia Church, they're going to be able to

1423
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:31,640
Speaker 3: go after like any religious groups. And that's just like

1424
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:35,559
Speaker 3: not true, Like it's just not true. These people are

1425
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:38,360
Speaker 3: not like whatever you're you know, in terms of sort

1426
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:40,400
Speaker 3: of whatever, like the crimes of like a normal religious

1427
01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:45,719
Speaker 3: group group are like the church is not a normal

1428
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 3: religious group. They have been funding desk squads for like

1429
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 3: longer than most of the people listening to the show

1430
01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:58,040
Speaker 3: have been alive. And yeah, I don't know. I just

1431
01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:01,840
Speaker 3: want to sort of like like just make people aware

1432
01:35:01,840 --> 01:35:03,760
Speaker 3: of it. They're going to try this shit again. And

1433
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:06,800
Speaker 3: it was it was bullshit less and he did it.

1434
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:13,360
Speaker 6: It's bullshit now, yeah, one hundred percent. And that's that's

1435
01:35:13,360 --> 01:35:15,840
Speaker 6: the thing that keeps annoying me. Well, it's not nothing.

1436
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:17,640
Speaker 7: There are many things about this that annoy me and

1437
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:20,320
Speaker 7: make me very enraged, But one of them is that

1438
01:35:20,360 --> 01:35:25,920
Speaker 7: the playbook doesn't change. Yeah, no, it's very very straightforward.

1439
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:28,519
Speaker 7: This is how it's going to work. I'm kind of

1440
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:30,640
Speaker 7: wondering also if the cult is going to sort of

1441
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:34,080
Speaker 7: like roll out new providential edicts that will like potentially

1442
01:35:34,720 --> 01:35:36,400
Speaker 7: be like, oh no, this is going to be our

1443
01:35:36,439 --> 01:35:38,200
Speaker 7: new country that we get the most money out of,

1444
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:42,000
Speaker 7: or this maybe or something like, you know, just something

1445
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:44,240
Speaker 7: that they're going to say that God has made it

1446
01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:48,320
Speaker 7: this way so that like, yeah, you can change those.

1447
01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:50,480
Speaker 6: Money money funneling tunnels.

1448
01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:54,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. The only prediction that I can

1449
01:35:54,160 --> 01:35:56,160
Speaker 3: make and I'm absolutely sure of is that it's going

1450
01:35:56,200 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 3: to be wild and it's going to suck.

1451
01:35:58,479 --> 01:35:59,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1452
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:01,479
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm looking forward to how this is going to

1453
01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:04,520
Speaker 7: play out, honestly, especially given all of the like Kamakazi

1454
01:36:04,640 --> 01:36:09,680
Speaker 7: squad comments and stuff, makes me ill, It makes it

1455
01:36:09,720 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 7: makes me scared, It makes me not feel confident about

1456
01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:14,639
Speaker 7: the way that this is going to turn out.

1457
01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm kind of of two minds of this because

1458
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:20,240
Speaker 3: like I'm hoping this will go well and this will

1459
01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 3: actually work and that like even if the church tries

1460
01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:27,280
Speaker 3: to lash out, it's like doesn't work very well. I

1461
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:32,640
Speaker 3: do think also the way that this assassination has like

1462
01:36:32,840 --> 01:36:36,559
Speaker 3: been turning just random like regular people in Japan who

1463
01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:38,639
Speaker 3: don't really know anything about the Church against them has

1464
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 3: been really really interesting and powerful in a way that

1465
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:45,960
Speaker 3: was I mean not the I don't know, so there's

1466
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:48,240
Speaker 3: I've been saying is like the top of the show

1467
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:50,280
Speaker 3: kind of as a joke, but like, this really has

1468
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:56,760
Speaker 3: been a very successful like political assassination in that it

1469
01:36:56,920 --> 01:37:00,640
Speaker 3: hasn't like, it hasn't back it hasn't yet backfired in

1470
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:02,320
Speaker 3: a way that helps the church, and it seems to

1471
01:37:02,360 --> 01:37:06,240
Speaker 3: have really don't know, it seems it seemed to have

1472
01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:11,240
Speaker 3: very powerfully achieved this objective of getting people to go, wait,

1473
01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:15,680
Speaker 3: hold on, who is this cult that is like not

1474
01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 3: I don't know, running is maybe too strong of a word,

1475
01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:22,439
Speaker 3: but has like completely embedded itself in the in Japan's

1476
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:23,480
Speaker 3: ruling class.

1477
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:27,920
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, yeah, people are asking questions.

1478
01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, which which I think is good. And I

1479
01:37:30,240 --> 01:37:32,600
Speaker 3: don't know, I hope the other thing I'm hoping is

1480
01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:37,720
Speaker 3: that this like people start doing this in like the

1481
01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:41,000
Speaker 3: US and in Korea and in like all of the

1482
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 3: other places that they've been doing shit like this, because

1483
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:44,080
Speaker 3: this isn't just.

1484
01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:48,519
Speaker 7: Yeah, because that's been global and there have been so

1485
01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:50,600
Speaker 7: many people that have been victims of this group that

1486
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:53,880
Speaker 7: I know a lot of us in America have also

1487
01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 7: started speaking out about it, and the media here has

1488
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:03,760
Speaker 7: not been quite as interested in picking up, uh, what

1489
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:05,840
Speaker 7: we have to say. To a degree, they have been,

1490
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:08,960
Speaker 7: but it's usually you know, sensationalized.

1491
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:14,080
Speaker 6: And made a little weird and just yeah, yeah the point,

1492
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:16,720
Speaker 6: oh sorry, yeah, go on, yeah, like there's.

1493
01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:18,479
Speaker 3: A there's a really this is something like I've read

1494
01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:20,719
Speaker 3: a lot of sort of American coverage of this alongside

1495
01:38:20,760 --> 01:38:22,800
Speaker 3: the Japanese coverage, and I mean, like I expect this

1496
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:25,720
Speaker 3: of the Japanese. Wow, Okay, I guess I expect this

1497
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:30,280
Speaker 3: of both, like parts of the coverage, but there is

1498
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:35,839
Speaker 3: there has been very very little, if any willingness to

1499
01:38:36,080 --> 01:38:38,559
Speaker 3: like talk about the church's connection to the CIA, and

1500
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:41,280
Speaker 3: they're you know, people will talk about them like as

1501
01:38:41,280 --> 01:38:44,200
Speaker 3: an anti communist group, but right like yeah, like the

1502
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:47,400
Speaker 3: don't take that extra step, yeah yeah, like you have

1503
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:49,000
Speaker 3: like it's they're not just in it. Like there there

1504
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:51,160
Speaker 3: there are lots of anti communist groups. I mean, there

1505
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:53,519
Speaker 3: are no anti communist groups that are good, right, but

1506
01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:56,519
Speaker 3: like there are lots of anti communist groups that never

1507
01:38:56,920 --> 01:38:59,960
Speaker 3: funded death squads in like not what was what was

1508
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:04,439
Speaker 3: the actual number like sixteen I had I had I

1509
01:39:04,479 --> 01:39:06,040
Speaker 3: had a count at one point of the number of

1510
01:39:06,040 --> 01:39:08,559
Speaker 3: countries they funded desk squads in. But like like most

1511
01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:12,800
Speaker 3: most most most people haven't like like funded coups in

1512
01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:17,200
Speaker 3: Bolivia and like you know, kept like allowed to ran

1513
01:39:17,320 --> 01:39:19,719
Speaker 3: Contra to happen by keeping the Contras in the war,

1514
01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:23,760
Speaker 3: or like sent weapons of the mousia Hadeen like yo,

1515
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:27,080
Speaker 3: like they they really they they really they've I don't know,

1516
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:30,840
Speaker 3: like I I mean, I like I guess, like you know,

1517
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:32,400
Speaker 3: in terms of the sort of like this is the

1518
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:35,120
Speaker 3: bourgeois press stuff it like it like it makes sense

1519
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 3: ideologically why people don't want to talk about their connections

1520
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:41,600
Speaker 3: to the CIA and like the operations they pulled in

1521
01:39:41,680 --> 01:39:45,080
Speaker 3: the US and all of the just imperials that they've

1522
01:39:45,080 --> 01:39:49,560
Speaker 3: been doing. But it's it's really depressing because yeah, yeah,

1523
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:50,240
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1524
01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 7: It feels demoralizing sometimes because people only want to tell

1525
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:57,960
Speaker 7: part of the story when it's like not too crazy

1526
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:00,240
Speaker 7: and out there sounding for them. It's like, no, I

1527
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:03,519
Speaker 7: tell you what, the actual story behind this group is

1528
01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:05,560
Speaker 7: crazier and more out there than you could ever imagine.

1529
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:09,080
Speaker 3: Like yeah, yeah, and I think I think that's that's

1530
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:11,200
Speaker 3: been an important I mean that's I think why the

1531
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:13,880
Speaker 3: work you're doing is really important because thank you, like

1532
01:40:13,960 --> 01:40:16,880
Speaker 3: you have to actually make like you're you're one of

1533
01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:20,360
Speaker 3: the few people like actually making these connections. And yeah,

1534
01:40:20,360 --> 01:40:22,160
Speaker 3: I really I really appreciate it.

1535
01:40:22,560 --> 01:40:22,840
Speaker 6: Thank you.

1536
01:40:22,920 --> 01:40:27,479
Speaker 7: I appreciate that you appreciate it because it's sometimes it's it's.

1537
01:40:27,360 --> 01:40:29,200
Speaker 6: Weird work to do, Like I just read a lot

1538
01:40:29,200 --> 01:40:31,639
Speaker 6: about horrible things, and.

1539
01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:34,680
Speaker 7: You know, I mean, like I was saying that I

1540
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:36,760
Speaker 7: can take a toll on you to a degree, and

1541
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:38,960
Speaker 7: sometimes I'll have to take breaks from it, but at

1542
01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 7: the end of the day, I'm always going to go

1543
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:42,719
Speaker 7: back to it because, like I think it's worth doing,

1544
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:44,639
Speaker 7: because the stuff needs to be talked about.

1545
01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:47,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I guess do you have anything else that

1546
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:48,639
Speaker 3: you wanted to say.

1547
01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:55,720
Speaker 7: Before I'll just plug deprogramming, imperialism, those two words. I

1548
01:40:55,760 --> 01:40:58,559
Speaker 7: think there's an underscore on our Instagram. Let me just

1549
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,080
Speaker 7: double check. If there's an underscore, we will.

1550
01:41:00,960 --> 01:41:02,519
Speaker 3: Put links to this in the description.

1551
01:41:03,240 --> 01:41:03,960
Speaker 6: Appreciate it.

1552
01:41:04,479 --> 01:41:06,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show.

1553
01:41:06,520 --> 01:41:08,519
Speaker 3: And yeah, fuck these.

1554
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:12,439
Speaker 7: People, yeah for real, they've done some really bad stuff.

1555
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:17,880
Speaker 3: So hopefully, hopefully this is finally after like so many

1556
01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:20,720
Speaker 3: generations of terrible crimes they've been doing that. This is

1557
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:22,720
Speaker 3: finally the one that's going to fucking crush them.

1558
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:26,400
Speaker 7: We can hope, you know, yeah, you can very much

1559
01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:28,920
Speaker 7: hope though. And the more people are talking about it

1560
01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:32,120
Speaker 7: the better. The more people understand, like the history behind

1561
01:41:32,160 --> 01:41:33,000
Speaker 7: the movement, the better.

1562
01:41:33,120 --> 01:41:34,240
Speaker 6: So thanks for having me.

1563
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:38,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, and yeah, this has been it can happen here.

1564
01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:42,479
Speaker 3: You can find us assuming Twitter still exists, when this

1565
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:48,200
Speaker 3: goes up on Twitter, Instagram, haf in here pod. Yeah,

1566
01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:51,439
Speaker 3: you can find sources of goals on media. Yeah, go

1567
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:55,879
Speaker 3: go into the world, destroy imperialism and crush the remains

1568
01:41:55,920 --> 01:41:58,280
Speaker 3: of these dog shit ass cults.

1569
01:41:59,360 --> 01:42:18,080
Speaker 11: Yeah, okay, I am also going cool.

1570
01:42:18,040 --> 01:42:20,720
Speaker 1: Let's go, let's suck it up.

1571
01:42:21,080 --> 01:42:27,120
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. Maybe that should be our intro. Keep it Yeah,

1572
01:42:27,160 --> 01:42:29,280
Speaker 5: you leave it all in Daniel. This is how.

1573
01:42:29,280 --> 01:42:31,599
Speaker 1: Fucking up my cool zone media.

1574
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:36,160
Speaker 5: That's a great question, Robert, It's one we don't like

1575
01:42:36,200 --> 01:42:40,559
Speaker 5: to answer. The answer is yeah, Reaganagan coins. Yeah, we've

1576
01:42:40,560 --> 01:42:41,080
Speaker 5: got into it.

1577
01:42:41,240 --> 01:42:44,559
Speaker 1: Oh that's what's funding James. It's a common mistake mixing

1578
01:42:44,600 --> 01:42:45,479
Speaker 1: those two words up.

1579
01:42:46,160 --> 01:42:47,960
Speaker 5: Okay, I see yeah, yeah, I thought it was because

1580
01:42:47,960 --> 01:42:49,680
Speaker 5: we got to a dispute about who is going to

1581
01:42:49,680 --> 01:42:52,680
Speaker 5: get the next gold coin that they send us, No,

1582
01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:53,679
Speaker 5: every every month.

1583
01:42:54,280 --> 01:42:57,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's uh, that's that's what funds are. Incredible work,

1584
01:42:57,640 --> 01:43:00,000
Speaker 1: your incredible work mostly over at the border.

1585
01:43:00,680 --> 01:43:01,080
Speaker 12: That's right.

1586
01:43:01,280 --> 01:43:04,599
Speaker 5: Yep. Before enough, very good, thank you, magic man.

1587
01:43:04,680 --> 01:43:04,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1588
01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:07,880
Speaker 5: Right before and after I go, I dive like Scrooge

1589
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:10,599
Speaker 5: mc duck into my giant pile of gold coins. Yeah,

1590
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:14,120
Speaker 5: and it helps me recover. But yeah, talking of the border,

1591
01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 5: I am not the only one with a giant pile

1592
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:18,559
Speaker 5: of gold coins who has been going to the border

1593
01:43:19,479 --> 01:43:24,600
Speaker 5: because friend of the show Elon Musk, has also been taking.

1594
01:43:25,120 --> 01:43:26,439
Speaker 1: Well you got to bring him into this.

1595
01:43:27,320 --> 01:43:30,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, certainly, Rubbert, he brought himself into this.

1596
01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:32,040
Speaker 1: Why he got to bring himself out?

1597
01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:36,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, really, this wasn't my believe me, buddy. I would

1598
01:43:36,040 --> 01:43:38,360
Speaker 5: like nothing more than to never hear his name again,

1599
01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:41,680
Speaker 5: but unfortunately addressed.

1600
01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 1: I would like to hear it again, but specifically I

1601
01:43:44,040 --> 01:43:46,400
Speaker 1: would like to hear the sentence from a news anchor

1602
01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:49,680
Speaker 1: Elon Musk eaten by a crocodile. Yes, I was just

1603
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:54,960
Speaker 1: thinking crocodile in a failed motorcycle stunt in the Florida Keys.

1604
01:43:55,120 --> 01:43:55,280
Speaker 12: Yeah.

1605
01:43:55,360 --> 01:43:58,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd settle with like hippopotamus, crocodile.

1606
01:43:59,240 --> 01:44:03,240
Speaker 1: Any semi aquatic animal eating him would be pretty amusing.

1607
01:44:03,320 --> 01:44:03,479
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1608
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:05,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, if a managi ate him, I'd be fucking pumped.

1609
01:44:07,439 --> 01:44:09,880
Speaker 5: We'd love to see it. Yeah, if any one carnivor

1610
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:13,360
Speaker 5: amanity yeah yeah, yeah, it's been training its whole life

1611
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:18,559
Speaker 5: for this. Yeah, that'll be in our next merch drop. Okay,

1612
01:44:18,720 --> 01:44:22,680
Speaker 5: so yeah, Elmo in some kind of I don't know,

1613
01:44:22,760 --> 01:44:25,559
Speaker 5: like punished woody cosplay.

1614
01:44:26,280 --> 01:44:28,160
Speaker 13: It was the very costumish, it was.

1615
01:44:28,360 --> 01:44:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. We have a saying in Texas for

1616
01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:35,280
Speaker 1: people who wear cowboy hats and cowboy boots when they shouldn't,

1617
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:38,680
Speaker 1: and it's all had no cattle, and that is he

1618
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:40,160
Speaker 1: is the definition of that.

1619
01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:44,040
Speaker 13: Classes I think really punched it up, you know.

1620
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:46,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1621
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:48,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, he just looked like a balland like I can't

1622
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:51,920
Speaker 5: it's really remarkable that he can be that wealthy and

1623
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:55,800
Speaker 5: always looks so awkward and like you could just pay

1624
01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:58,599
Speaker 5: someone to buy you clothes, bro, and like, at least

1625
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:02,960
Speaker 5: Jeff Bezos got your when he got really rich. Elon

1626
01:45:03,040 --> 01:45:06,280
Speaker 5: must still looks like Humpty dumpty, not to like does

1627
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:10,200
Speaker 5: look Besis looks weirdest freaking like a plastic They.

1628
01:45:10,080 --> 01:45:14,320
Speaker 1: All look weird, and I don't care about the fact

1629
01:45:14,320 --> 01:45:18,240
Speaker 1: that Elon Musk is. You know, he's not jagged or swollen,

1630
01:45:18,280 --> 01:45:21,639
Speaker 1: but he's not a wildly abnormal body shape for a man.

1631
01:45:21,680 --> 01:45:23,080
Speaker 1: And what is fucking fifty's like.

1632
01:45:23,120 --> 01:45:25,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, he's older than I imagine.

1633
01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:28,439
Speaker 1: I'm shit on him for playing at something he clearly

1634
01:45:28,560 --> 01:45:31,040
Speaker 1: is not, because no man has ever been further from

1635
01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:31,919
Speaker 1: being a cowboy.

1636
01:45:32,280 --> 01:45:36,360
Speaker 5: Yes, that is true, he has very few cattle. Yeah,

1637
01:45:36,400 --> 01:45:39,320
Speaker 5: there's no shame in anyone's body shape. It's just funny

1638
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:41,200
Speaker 5: to mock Elon Musk, I guess.

1639
01:45:41,520 --> 01:45:41,600
Speaker 6: So.

1640
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:44,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, Elon turned up at the border and he decided

1641
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:46,559
Speaker 5: that he was going to learn about the border, and

1642
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:48,880
Speaker 5: the way that he decided he was going to learn

1643
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:52,160
Speaker 5: about the border was by assembling a collection of cops

1644
01:45:53,280 --> 01:45:56,639
Speaker 5: and one representative to lie to him about the border,

1645
01:45:57,200 --> 01:46:00,080
Speaker 5: which many of you who follow things like Journalist and

1646
01:46:00,360 --> 01:46:03,439
Speaker 5: will be aware that cops lie actually quite a lot,

1647
01:46:03,520 --> 01:46:08,400
Speaker 5: and that is what happened here unsurprisingly. So I guess

1648
01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:11,880
Speaker 5: I just want to take this chance to a update

1649
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:14,400
Speaker 5: everyone on what's been happening since we last upbated everyone

1650
01:46:14,400 --> 01:46:17,120
Speaker 5: what's been happening at the border, and be just address

1651
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:18,080
Speaker 5: some of these myths.

1652
01:46:18,520 --> 01:46:18,720
Speaker 3: I know.

1653
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:21,040
Speaker 5: Something we talked about over the break was like lots

1654
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 5: of people between now and the end of the year

1655
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:27,320
Speaker 5: will be seeing family members who they might not see

1656
01:46:27,400 --> 01:46:29,519
Speaker 5: very often, and they might not see them too now

1657
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:31,000
Speaker 5: in the next election. And there are a lot of

1658
01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:34,720
Speaker 5: myths specifically about migration that we will maybe copy in

1659
01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:37,400
Speaker 5: another episode. But I think there's some valuable stuff here

1660
01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:40,519
Speaker 5: that people can address. If people in your circle have

1661
01:46:40,640 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 5: been influenced by Elon Musk citizen journalism, then I think

1662
01:46:44,120 --> 01:46:47,320
Speaker 5: it's really important to just point out that it's all

1663
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:53,960
Speaker 5: bullshit then so easily discoverably bullshit. Now, obviously not everyone

1664
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:55,960
Speaker 5: spends as much time at the southern border of the

1665
01:46:56,040 --> 01:46:58,680
Speaker 5: United States as I do, and not everyone lives on

1666
01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:01,760
Speaker 5: the border. Must doesn't live on the border either, and

1667
01:47:01,760 --> 01:47:05,120
Speaker 5: he clearly thinks that people who do exist in some

1668
01:47:05,200 --> 01:47:07,920
Speaker 5: kind of world West fantasia where people you know, wear

1669
01:47:07,960 --> 01:47:11,880
Speaker 5: cowboy hats and cowboy boots. But like for most of us,

1670
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:14,040
Speaker 5: for many of us, it's is our day to day reality,

1671
01:47:14,080 --> 01:47:17,160
Speaker 5: and so it's easy to go, I guess, and talk

1672
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:19,800
Speaker 5: to some cops and like wave at some people who

1673
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:22,960
Speaker 5: have been corralled up like like they like cattle or

1674
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:27,320
Speaker 5: some kind of animals, right, yeah, right, like not engaging

1675
01:47:27,320 --> 01:47:31,639
Speaker 5: with them as people and throughout this right like, at

1676
01:47:31,640 --> 01:47:34,680
Speaker 5: no point in his little border screed, which I don't

1677
01:47:34,680 --> 01:47:36,000
Speaker 5: think you have to watch, by the way, if you

1678
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:38,040
Speaker 5: haven't watched it, like I'm very now.

1679
01:47:37,880 --> 01:47:40,920
Speaker 1: You're not you're not going to like benefit from it.

1680
01:47:41,240 --> 01:47:42,280
Speaker 5: No, you won't learn shit.

1681
01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:44,599
Speaker 13: But there is there is a clip I found that's

1682
01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:47,000
Speaker 13: like a minute long on YouTube from the live stream

1683
01:47:47,240 --> 01:47:50,400
Speaker 13: where the like maybe like most ninety percent of it

1684
01:47:50,439 --> 01:47:52,160
Speaker 13: is him trying to flip the camera to.

1685
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:57,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was that was very funny. Yeah that yes,

1686
01:47:58,320 --> 01:48:01,559
Speaker 5: real iron man vibes from the guy who can't reverse

1687
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:03,040
Speaker 5: his camera and then he ends up just holding it

1688
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:11,439
Speaker 5: the way around in yeah this intellectual yeah no titan

1689
01:48:11,520 --> 01:48:14,280
Speaker 5: Elil musk So. I think the first part is that

1690
01:48:14,439 --> 01:48:16,120
Speaker 5: when he starts to well, first he says as an

1691
01:48:16,120 --> 01:48:18,919
Speaker 5: immigrant myself, which is like, yeah, brock, I'm an immigrant

1692
01:48:18,960 --> 01:48:21,320
Speaker 5: to the differences. I didn't have to walk across the

1693
01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:24,160
Speaker 5: desert carrying my child and then be detained in open

1694
01:48:24,200 --> 01:48:27,800
Speaker 5: air concentration camp while people around me got fucking hypothermia

1695
01:48:28,479 --> 01:48:32,720
Speaker 5: and then questioned about the legitimacy of my travel and

1696
01:48:33,160 --> 01:48:35,280
Speaker 5: right to be here, and then I'm able to work

1697
01:48:35,320 --> 01:48:40,120
Speaker 5: for years. Migration experiences are different, different, and you don't

1698
01:48:40,160 --> 01:48:43,240
Speaker 5: have a right to condescend to people who are often

1699
01:48:43,280 --> 01:48:45,080
Speaker 5: among some of the least fortunate people in the world,

1700
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:47,360
Speaker 5: just because your mum was a Canadian citizen and you

1701
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:48,920
Speaker 5: came here to go to school, Like, it's not the

1702
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:52,559
Speaker 5: fucking same. And I say this as someone who came

1703
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:55,400
Speaker 5: here to go to school, right, Like, it's.

1704
01:48:55,240 --> 01:48:57,720
Speaker 1: The same as if like I were to take a

1705
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:01,559
Speaker 1: fucking flight from North Africa to Spain and be like, well,

1706
01:49:01,600 --> 01:49:04,960
Speaker 1: having migrated to Spain from America, Like, it's really not

1707
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:08,520
Speaker 1: a dangerous journey. Yeah, it's a completely different situation.

1708
01:49:08,640 --> 01:49:12,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, yeah, And you compare yourself to Amelia Heart

1709
01:49:12,080 --> 01:49:16,400
Speaker 5: and the same, it's no different. So, yeah, like Elon

1710
01:49:16,479 --> 01:49:18,360
Speaker 5: Musk came to this country in a very different circumstance

1711
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:21,960
Speaker 5: to many of these people. The first claim that's made

1712
01:49:21,960 --> 01:49:24,000
Speaker 5: in this video, which is which is bullshit. It's this

1713
01:49:24,080 --> 01:49:27,200
Speaker 5: quote unquote open border policy. Now, at no point do

1714
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:30,599
Speaker 5: any of these like old men in hats define what

1715
01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:33,840
Speaker 5: they mean by open border policy. And that's because it

1716
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:37,240
Speaker 5: doesn't exist. It's not a thing. There is no open

1717
01:49:37,280 --> 01:49:41,400
Speaker 5: border policy. There has never been an open border policy Biden's.

1718
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:46,680
Speaker 5: So I was in Tijuana at the Pedwest people know where.

1719
01:49:46,720 --> 01:49:48,880
Speaker 5: That is so at that point in time that on

1720
01:49:48,920 --> 01:49:51,280
Speaker 5: the day Biden was inaugurated, I was there, right. I

1721
01:49:51,360 --> 01:49:54,160
Speaker 5: was there because a large group of migrants were waiting

1722
01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:57,680
Speaker 5: to see if Joe Biden would change anything, and they

1723
01:49:57,720 --> 01:50:01,320
Speaker 5: had been stuck in Tijuana for month years in some cases.

1724
01:50:01,360 --> 01:50:03,600
Speaker 5: I spoke to people who had been sexually assaulted. I

1725
01:50:03,640 --> 01:50:06,320
Speaker 5: spoke to people who had been robbed. I spoke to

1726
01:50:06,320 --> 01:50:08,320
Speaker 5: people who lived in fear for their lives right, and

1727
01:50:08,400 --> 01:50:11,240
Speaker 5: they were not safe in Mexico and wanted to come

1728
01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:13,240
Speaker 5: to the United States. And they had seen the way

1729
01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:16,080
Speaker 5: Biden campaigned, and they hoped that he would do something better.

1730
01:50:16,400 --> 01:50:20,160
Speaker 5: Did he fuck know? He did not. For years, he

1731
01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:24,080
Speaker 5: continued the same policies that Trump put in place in

1732
01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:28,599
Speaker 5: COVID Biden Title forty two more people than Trump did. Right,

1733
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:31,320
Speaker 5: The Title forty two policy was in place for much

1734
01:50:31,360 --> 01:50:36,520
Speaker 5: longer under Biden than it was under Trump. It's completely

1735
01:50:36,880 --> 01:50:39,400
Speaker 5: untrue to suggest that Biden not, at any point in

1736
01:50:39,479 --> 01:50:42,920
Speaker 5: his presidency opened up the border. What did happen in May.

1737
01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:45,840
Speaker 5: As people will be aware, is that Title forty two ended.

1738
01:50:45,880 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 5: It didn't end because Biden decided it had to end.

1739
01:50:49,360 --> 01:50:53,880
Speaker 5: It ended because the emergency for COVID nineteen ended. And

1740
01:50:54,080 --> 01:50:57,519
Speaker 5: Title forty two is not immigration law, its public health law.

1741
01:50:57,800 --> 01:51:01,360
Speaker 5: And so with the end of this policy, that allowed

1742
01:51:01,360 --> 01:51:03,479
Speaker 5: the government to do things that would not normally be

1743
01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:05,880
Speaker 5: able to do because it was a quote unquote emergency,

1744
01:51:06,520 --> 01:51:11,160
Speaker 5: they were not able to do this extraordinary and extraordinarily

1745
01:51:11,200 --> 01:51:13,479
Speaker 5: cruel thing, which which was Title forty two. Right, That

1746
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:16,519
Speaker 5: wasn't a Biden choice, that that was an end, that

1747
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:19,480
Speaker 5: was a decision forced upon him. Indeed, the Biden administration

1748
01:51:19,560 --> 01:51:22,920
Speaker 5: defended Title forty two in court. What has happened since

1749
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:26,240
Speaker 5: then is that migrant numbers have dropped. They have decreased

1750
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:29,519
Speaker 5: since the end of Title forty two. That's because lots

1751
01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:34,080
Speaker 5: of people saw the harsh anti migration rhetoric that was

1752
01:51:34,120 --> 01:51:37,200
Speaker 5: coming from the Biden White House, right, Mayorcus out there

1753
01:51:37,320 --> 01:51:40,360
Speaker 5: spouting stuff about bands you'll be banned from seeking asylum

1754
01:51:40,400 --> 01:51:43,759
Speaker 5: for five years if your court crossing between ports of entry,

1755
01:51:44,040 --> 01:51:45,840
Speaker 5: and that led to people thinking they had to cross

1756
01:51:45,880 --> 01:51:49,000
Speaker 5: before the end of Title forty two. Right now, what

1757
01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:51,320
Speaker 5: Title forty two did do is create a massive backlog

1758
01:51:51,760 --> 01:51:55,280
Speaker 5: of asylum applications because we weren't processing those applications and

1759
01:51:55,320 --> 01:51:58,880
Speaker 5: we were bouncing people back to Mexico, where as I've

1760
01:51:58,880 --> 01:52:02,439
Speaker 5: hopefully already illustrated, they were not safe. They didn't feel

1761
01:52:02,479 --> 01:52:05,880
Speaker 5: that that was a safe third country for them, and

1762
01:52:05,960 --> 01:52:09,120
Speaker 5: so in the months after Title forty two, those people

1763
01:52:09,200 --> 01:52:13,519
Speaker 5: have tried to cross and to make their asylum applications right.

1764
01:52:13,520 --> 01:52:15,920
Speaker 5: They're supposed to use app called CBP one. As we've

1765
01:52:15,920 --> 01:52:19,040
Speaker 5: documented in very great detail, that app is completely unfit

1766
01:52:19,120 --> 01:52:21,960
Speaker 5: for purpose. And people can listen to my title forty

1767
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:24,160
Speaker 5: two episodes, they can listen to the interview when it

1768
01:52:24,200 --> 01:52:27,639
Speaker 5: did with Jake and Austin about CBP one. The issues

1769
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:30,280
Speaker 5: with it are many. The facial liveness scan that it

1770
01:52:30,320 --> 01:52:34,080
Speaker 5: does doesn't work for people who have darker skin, It

1771
01:52:34,200 --> 01:52:37,400
Speaker 5: requires Wi Fi, it requires Internet connectivity. These are things

1772
01:52:37,439 --> 01:52:40,040
Speaker 5: that no long migrants have, and that the migrants who

1773
01:52:40,040 --> 01:52:42,040
Speaker 5: do have tend to be richer and tend to be whiter,

1774
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:46,639
Speaker 5: so it facilitates a certain type of migrant. At one

1775
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:50,559
Speaker 5: point in I believe April of this year, forty percent

1776
01:52:50,720 --> 01:52:56,000
Speaker 5: of the CBP one applications that were CBP one appointments

1777
01:52:56,080 --> 01:52:58,639
Speaker 5: that were made for Sylum applications were made for people

1778
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:01,320
Speaker 5: who spoke Russian. If we spoke Russian on not forty

1779
01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:04,160
Speaker 5: percent of the migrants that was in Tijuana. And I guess

1780
01:53:04,280 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 5: what that means is that people who you know, especially

1781
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:11,280
Speaker 5: in my experience, people from African countries are unable to

1782
01:53:11,320 --> 01:53:14,280
Speaker 5: apply for appointments using CBP one. Also, it's only available

1783
01:53:14,280 --> 01:53:17,000
Speaker 5: in a couple of languages, or three languages I believe, English, Spanish,

1784
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:19,960
Speaker 5: and Haitian Creole. If you don't speak those languages is

1785
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:21,639
Speaker 5: going to be a lot harder. There are many other

1786
01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:24,639
Speaker 5: issues with CBP one and other apps that DHS uses.

1787
01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:27,800
Speaker 5: But what has happened since the end of title forty

1788
01:53:27,800 --> 01:53:30,360
Speaker 5: two in May right is people have tried. This backlog

1789
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:33,840
Speaker 5: has begun to sort of people have started to try

1790
01:53:33,880 --> 01:53:36,080
Speaker 5: and present their applications. And what's happening now is that

1791
01:53:36,120 --> 01:53:39,799
Speaker 5: people are crossing in very large numbers. That's not untrue

1792
01:53:40,240 --> 01:53:43,800
Speaker 5: that happens at this time of year. So the last

1793
01:53:43,920 --> 01:53:48,439
Speaker 5: kind of quote unquote normal years we had were I

1794
01:53:48,479 --> 01:53:51,599
Speaker 5: suppose twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen. If people cast their

1795
01:53:51,600 --> 01:53:55,559
Speaker 5: minds back to the November of twenty eighteen. You remember

1796
01:53:55,600 --> 01:53:58,160
Speaker 5: that was the Trump midterms, and you remember the quote

1797
01:53:58,200 --> 01:54:01,320
Speaker 5: unquote migrant caravan that are Identijuana at that time with

1798
01:54:01,400 --> 01:54:04,920
Speaker 5: thousands of people. The reason that people are always traveling

1799
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:07,479
Speaker 5: at this time of year is because it is easier

1800
01:54:07,479 --> 01:54:09,439
Speaker 5: to travel in the months and I was hot, right,

1801
01:54:09,560 --> 01:54:11,519
Speaker 5: So we will see more people arriving the next few months.

1802
01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:14,719
Speaker 5: That's part of seasonal migrationments because of demand for work.

1803
01:54:15,000 --> 01:54:17,679
Speaker 5: If you're working harvesting things right as a day laborer,

1804
01:54:18,160 --> 01:54:21,479
Speaker 5: that happens at the end of the summer. This is

1805
01:54:21,600 --> 01:54:24,759
Speaker 5: part of a normal and natural cycle. People have always

1806
01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:29,960
Speaker 5: traveled since human beings have existed to take advantage of

1807
01:54:29,960 --> 01:54:33,720
Speaker 5: different conditions, different access to resources. But the idea that

1808
01:54:33,720 --> 01:54:36,960
Speaker 5: at some point Biden instituted an open border policy is nonsense.

1809
01:54:37,000 --> 01:54:39,640
Speaker 5: Biden has closed that border, right, He's built walls through

1810
01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:43,280
Speaker 5: Friendship Park, He's built walls in Texas, he's built walls

1811
01:54:43,280 --> 01:54:48,839
Speaker 5: in California, He's funded DHS more. That border is certainly

1812
01:54:48,880 --> 01:54:52,000
Speaker 5: not open. The large groups of people that you are

1813
01:54:52,120 --> 01:54:57,880
Speaker 5: seeing going through the asylum process under US immigration law,

1814
01:54:58,000 --> 01:55:01,080
Speaker 5: as they have under every other president. They come into

1815
01:55:01,120 --> 01:55:05,160
Speaker 5: the United States, they do an initial interview and they're

1816
01:55:05,200 --> 01:55:08,560
Speaker 5: released with a notice to appear in court. That's always

1817
01:55:08,600 --> 01:55:11,080
Speaker 5: been the case. Now are those notices to appear for

1818
01:55:11,200 --> 01:55:14,720
Speaker 5: dates at further in the future now, Absolutely, And that's

1819
01:55:14,760 --> 01:55:18,200
Speaker 5: because our system is backlogged. Right, because we spent all

1820
01:55:18,240 --> 01:55:22,160
Speaker 5: our fucking money on giving border patrol, the black Hawks,

1821
01:55:22,200 --> 01:55:24,400
Speaker 5: giving our cops tanks, whatever it is that we spend

1822
01:55:24,400 --> 01:55:26,320
Speaker 5: our money on, we haven't spent it on making it

1823
01:55:26,360 --> 01:55:28,879
Speaker 5: easier and quicker for these people to get their asylum

1824
01:55:28,960 --> 01:55:33,040
Speaker 5: claims adjudicated. One of the claims that they make in

1825
01:55:33,080 --> 01:55:35,320
Speaker 5: the video I'm skipping out of the order that they

1826
01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:38,320
Speaker 5: make them in is that the repute he speaking to

1827
01:55:38,640 --> 01:55:42,240
Speaker 5: representative who's a representative for the Southern border region of Texas.

1828
01:55:42,240 --> 01:55:44,640
Speaker 5: He's in Eagle Past, Texas, right, which is an area

1829
01:55:44,720 --> 01:55:48,000
Speaker 5: which I've seen a lot of migration. The guy says

1830
01:55:48,040 --> 01:55:51,200
Speaker 5: there's no repatriation here. Of course, there isn't any repatriation there.

1831
01:55:51,240 --> 01:55:54,480
Speaker 5: That's not what happens in Eagle Pass right. People come,

1832
01:55:55,160 --> 01:55:57,680
Speaker 5: some of them will be immediately repatriated if they are

1833
01:55:57,720 --> 01:56:01,280
Speaker 5: found to be For instance, know that in May somebody

1834
01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:03,520
Speaker 5: who was found to be on the United States terrorism

1835
01:56:03,600 --> 01:56:06,080
Speaker 5: watch list tried to enter the country. That that person

1836
01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:08,720
Speaker 5: wasn't released with a notice to appear right, that person

1837
01:56:08,800 --> 01:56:11,960
Speaker 5: was immediately bounced into either return to their country or

1838
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:14,960
Speaker 5: more likely in their case, incarcerated. Some people will be

1839
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:18,920
Speaker 5: detained there. Some people will be repatriated there, but that's

1840
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:23,560
Speaker 5: because like Del Rio, Texas or Eagle Pass doesn't repatriate people.

1841
01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:27,240
Speaker 5: That's not their role. The courts are the ones who

1842
01:56:27,280 --> 01:56:31,280
Speaker 5: decide who is eligible for asylent right. And it's worth

1843
01:56:31,320 --> 01:56:33,800
Speaker 5: noting that this fiscal year, so that's through August of

1844
01:56:33,800 --> 01:56:38,080
Speaker 5: twenty twenty three, recording in October, but I couldn't find

1845
01:56:38,120 --> 01:56:42,200
Speaker 5: September stats. Immigration judges have issued removal and voluntary departure

1846
01:56:42,280 --> 01:56:45,480
Speaker 5: orders for thirty nine point four percent of completed cases,

1847
01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:48,720
Speaker 5: totaling two hundred and twenty three thousand, five hundred and

1848
01:56:48,760 --> 01:56:51,800
Speaker 5: seventy deportation orders. So it's absolutely ludicrous to say that

1849
01:56:51,800 --> 01:56:55,600
Speaker 5: there's no repatriation. Nearly half of those cases when they

1850
01:56:55,640 --> 01:57:00,600
Speaker 5: come to court result in repatriation. It's and then the

1851
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:03,480
Speaker 5: representative claims that he called the president of Guatemalan the

1852
01:57:03,520 --> 01:57:06,880
Speaker 5: Guatemalan president said will take people back. Great, of course

1853
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:10,240
Speaker 5: they will. That that's how international law works. It's not

1854
01:57:10,280 --> 01:57:15,640
Speaker 5: the Guatemalan president's job to decide who is decide who

1855
01:57:15,680 --> 01:57:17,760
Speaker 5: is allowed asylum in the United States. That's the job

1856
01:57:17,760 --> 01:57:22,000
Speaker 5: of the immigration courts. They are deeply flawed. But it's

1857
01:57:22,120 --> 01:57:25,560
Speaker 5: ludicrous to suggests that these people are not being sent back,

1858
01:57:25,600 --> 01:57:28,320
Speaker 5: because a deeply problematic number of them are being sent back,

1859
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:33,000
Speaker 5: often to very dangerous situations. And I think it's it's

1860
01:57:33,040 --> 01:57:37,919
Speaker 5: deeply misleading and it's troubling to see like elected officials

1861
01:57:37,960 --> 01:57:41,160
Speaker 5: making these claims. I know that elected officials just lie to,

1862
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:45,080
Speaker 5: you know, to to reinforce the narrative, but it's still troubling.

1863
01:57:45,800 --> 01:57:48,280
Speaker 5: Another claim they were like he was really shocked that

1864
01:57:48,320 --> 01:57:51,200
Speaker 5: people were playing golf next to the border. The US

1865
01:57:51,280 --> 01:57:54,360
Speaker 5: border is thousands of miles long, like we live, like

1866
01:57:54,760 --> 01:57:56,640
Speaker 5: for those of us, for whom it's not like an

1867
01:57:56,640 --> 01:57:59,400
Speaker 5: oddity to come and cause play at it's where we live.

1868
01:57:59,560 --> 01:58:02,920
Speaker 5: And of course we do stuff near the border because

1869
01:58:02,960 --> 01:58:06,080
Speaker 5: it's our home. Like I was camping near the border

1870
01:58:06,120 --> 01:58:08,000
Speaker 5: this week. I ride my bike near the border all

1871
01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:11,760
Speaker 5: the time. There are other golf courses near the border,

1872
01:58:11,800 --> 01:58:14,920
Speaker 5: there are parks near the border, and there's a Tommy

1873
01:58:15,000 --> 01:58:18,280
Speaker 5: Hill figure discount store near the border in Santa Sedro, like, yeah,

1874
01:58:19,440 --> 01:58:19,960
Speaker 5: it's our home.

1875
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's This is something that when we were

1876
01:58:23,040 --> 01:58:25,800
Speaker 1: at the Butterfly Sanctuary, a friend of ours who had

1877
01:58:25,840 --> 01:58:29,560
Speaker 1: kind of lived on the border for forever, Marianna, brought

1878
01:58:29,640 --> 01:58:32,280
Speaker 1: up a lot, which is that like prior to the

1879
01:58:32,560 --> 01:58:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, September eleventh in particular, these were just like communities,

1880
01:58:36,600 --> 01:58:38,240
Speaker 1: Like the fact that there was a border was more

1881
01:58:38,280 --> 01:58:41,360
Speaker 1: theoretical than anything else. You would cross pretty free. I

1882
01:58:41,360 --> 01:58:43,560
Speaker 1: have friends in southern California that go into Mexico for

1883
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:45,400
Speaker 1: the week and you didn't have a pass border or anything.

1884
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:48,560
Speaker 1: Like families you know, would cross to be with each

1885
01:58:48,600 --> 01:58:51,560
Speaker 1: other and stuff like. It was, yeah, the way it is.

1886
01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:53,720
Speaker 5: Even post nine eleven. Like for those of us who

1887
01:58:53,720 --> 01:58:56,200
Speaker 5: are fortunate enough to have Century, which is an expert,

1888
01:58:56,640 --> 01:58:59,280
Speaker 5: you can skip the line basically because you've been pre cleared.

1889
01:59:00,080 --> 01:59:03,160
Speaker 5: I go to Tijuana to have dinner pretty often, Like

1890
01:59:03,240 --> 01:59:06,080
Speaker 5: I'll take the trolley down there and then walk through

1891
01:59:06,120 --> 01:59:08,880
Speaker 5: with my bicycle and then ride my bike to the

1892
01:59:08,920 --> 01:59:11,320
Speaker 5: gastropark or something, have dinner, have a couple of beers,

1893
01:59:11,400 --> 01:59:13,600
Speaker 5: rid my back back, take the trolley back. It's nice evening.

1894
01:59:14,160 --> 01:59:16,840
Speaker 13: Yeah, I mean, I don't know how cold it is now,

1895
01:59:16,880 --> 01:59:20,080
Speaker 13: but like a lot of like people that work like

1896
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:22,320
Speaker 13: nine to five retail jobs or whatever it is, they

1897
01:59:22,360 --> 01:59:24,560
Speaker 13: would just like leave tou Wana and come back, like dad,

1898
01:59:24,680 --> 01:59:27,040
Speaker 13: My dad had hired a bunch of those workers. Yeah,

1899
01:59:27,080 --> 01:59:29,280
Speaker 13: and it was just like normal, was very normal to

1900
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:29,520
Speaker 13: do that.

1901
01:59:30,520 --> 01:59:33,240
Speaker 5: More so now because San Diego is less affordable than

1902
01:59:33,280 --> 01:59:34,080
Speaker 5: it as it has been.

1903
01:59:34,400 --> 01:59:37,560
Speaker 13: Like, Yeah, I think the people that don't live near

1904
01:59:37,560 --> 01:59:42,840
Speaker 13: a border or like believe the Rickulus claims me about it.

1905
01:59:43,120 --> 01:59:45,160
Speaker 13: I think they imagine the border is like in this

1906
01:59:45,320 --> 01:59:47,960
Speaker 13: barren wasteland and it's just like a chain link fence

1907
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:51,240
Speaker 13: or something. I don't think they understand what it actually is.

1908
01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:57,959
Speaker 1: They imagine like this desolate, yellow filtered scene from Breaking Bad. Yes, exactly,

1909
01:59:58,080 --> 02:00:00,920
Speaker 1: like movies like fucking Sakaria right where it's this this

1910
02:00:01,080 --> 02:00:05,000
Speaker 1: constant series of gunfights and like like violence occurs on

1911
02:00:05,040 --> 02:00:06,880
Speaker 1: the border. It's the same thing. It's actually a version

1912
02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:08,720
Speaker 1: of the same shit that's happened with like San Francisco

1913
02:00:08,840 --> 02:00:09,440
Speaker 1: and Portland.

1914
02:00:09,520 --> 02:00:09,640
Speaker 5: Right.

1915
02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:12,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have like a riot on a block, or

1916
02:00:12,640 --> 02:00:15,760
Speaker 1: you'll have like a store get robbed, and then people

1917
02:00:15,880 --> 02:00:18,640
Speaker 1: develop this because it gets so hyped by the media

1918
02:00:18,640 --> 02:00:21,480
Speaker 1: there's you can't go into these cities. They're death zones.

1919
02:00:21,560 --> 02:00:21,760
Speaker 2: You know.

1920
02:00:22,240 --> 02:00:25,880
Speaker 1: It was like no man, like a fucking most most

1921
02:00:25,880 --> 02:00:29,400
Speaker 1: of its nature, right, like that's the fucking border.

1922
02:00:30,440 --> 02:00:33,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just a place like it's it's not in

1923
02:00:34,040 --> 02:00:35,600
Speaker 5: any way remarkable like that.

1924
02:00:35,920 --> 02:00:38,560
Speaker 1: And the primary danger is the fact that people are

1925
02:00:38,680 --> 02:00:42,760
Speaker 1: stopped from having access to like things like water that

1926
02:00:42,800 --> 02:00:45,840
Speaker 1: they need, yeah, by the state.

1927
02:00:46,360 --> 02:00:47,720
Speaker 5: So maybe it's a good time to talk about some

1928
02:00:47,760 --> 02:00:50,320
Speaker 5: of the dangers that migrants are facing right now. In

1929
02:00:50,360 --> 02:00:53,520
Speaker 5: the last couple of weeks, it's maybe since we last recorded,

1930
02:00:54,080 --> 02:00:56,520
Speaker 5: I believe five migrants have been shot on the southern

1931
02:00:56,560 --> 02:01:01,440
Speaker 5: side of the border. People. So like this week in

1932
02:01:01,480 --> 02:01:04,000
Speaker 5: southern California, it's much colder. I know it's hot in

1933
02:01:04,040 --> 02:01:05,600
Speaker 5: lots of parts of the country. It wasn't here. We

1934
02:01:05,640 --> 02:01:10,360
Speaker 5: had rain. We're recording on like the first second of October.

1935
02:01:11,000 --> 02:01:15,240
Speaker 5: But last weekend was very cold. I was in a

1936
02:01:15,280 --> 02:01:20,240
Speaker 5: camp near Hakumba on Friday night through late Friday night

1937
02:01:20,400 --> 02:01:22,160
Speaker 5: maybe into Saturday morning, and.

1938
02:01:22,600 --> 02:01:24,000
Speaker 3: It was cold. It was wet.

1939
02:01:24,440 --> 02:01:28,360
Speaker 5: Temperatures were getting like into the single digits celsius, into

1940
02:01:28,360 --> 02:01:32,960
Speaker 5: the forties and fifties fahrenheit when it's wet, and it's

1941
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:35,000
Speaker 5: that kind of temperature that's when you start worrying about

1942
02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:38,160
Speaker 5: people getting hypothermia, which is exactly what happened right. People

1943
02:01:38,200 --> 02:01:42,800
Speaker 5: were sick, people had to be evacuated. On Friday night,

1944
02:01:42,880 --> 02:01:46,840
Speaker 5: I was heating up milk for a baby, like a

1945
02:01:46,880 --> 02:01:50,720
Speaker 5: tiny little baby in my camping stove, so that the

1946
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:55,200
Speaker 5: baby could have milk like not freezing temperatures. Right, it

1947
02:01:55,240 --> 02:02:00,040
Speaker 5: gave someone my gortex jacket. I was there with James

1948
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:03,800
Speaker 5: and Jacqueline from Boarder Kindness and some other friends. I

1949
02:02:03,840 --> 02:02:05,840
Speaker 5: know some of them listen to the podcast, and it

1950
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:08,160
Speaker 5: makes me really happy that people who listen to this

1951
02:02:08,360 --> 02:02:10,360
Speaker 5: like take the time out of their busy lives to

1952
02:02:10,400 --> 02:02:12,120
Speaker 5: show up and help other people. Like that's one of

1953
02:02:12,160 --> 02:02:14,560
Speaker 5: the coolest things that about what we do.

1954
02:02:15,000 --> 02:02:18,520
Speaker 1: We're very proud of those people and everyone else, you know, Yeah,

1955
02:02:18,880 --> 02:02:20,280
Speaker 1: pick up the slack, come on guys.

1956
02:02:20,800 --> 02:02:24,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like I know on that topic, like, there are

1957
02:02:24,760 --> 02:02:27,920
Speaker 5: a relatively few of us. It's a very remote area

1958
02:02:28,000 --> 02:02:31,240
Speaker 5: where we were. You know, you need a truck to

1959
02:02:31,240 --> 02:02:34,080
Speaker 5: get to it. Maybe a decent clearance car would be fine,

1960
02:02:34,080 --> 02:02:37,400
Speaker 5: but there were like six of us at one point.

1961
02:02:37,440 --> 02:02:40,240
Speaker 5: It is not easy to do that. Day in and

1962
02:02:40,320 --> 02:02:43,040
Speaker 5: day out. It really affects you to see someone's little

1963
02:02:43,040 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 5: baby sleeping in the dirt and they're asking you, like,

1964
02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:48,120
Speaker 5: you know, can I have a jacket and you've already

1965
02:02:48,120 --> 02:02:50,000
Speaker 5: given someone your jacket? Can I have a sleeping bag

1966
02:02:50,040 --> 02:02:52,160
Speaker 5: and you've given away all the sleeping bags you have? Like,

1967
02:02:53,520 --> 02:02:55,200
Speaker 5: it's fucked. It's not good for you. And I know

1968
02:02:55,240 --> 02:02:57,240
Speaker 5: it's taken a toll on those people, and it would

1969
02:02:57,240 --> 02:03:00,680
Speaker 5: be great if more people could come. As James Jaqueline said,

1970
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:04,200
Speaker 5: we're vetting everyone because there are people who would like

1971
02:03:04,240 --> 02:03:06,919
Speaker 5: to do harm to migrants and people who don't like migrants.

1972
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:08,640
Speaker 5: And so if you go back and listen to the

1973
02:03:08,680 --> 02:03:11,840
Speaker 5: episode or the relevant links and email addresses to volunteer there,

1974
02:03:12,240 --> 02:03:15,320
Speaker 5: even if you just send money, it's better to send

1975
02:03:15,360 --> 02:03:17,840
Speaker 5: money then to send us stuff. We've had a ton

1976
02:03:17,880 --> 02:03:19,880
Speaker 5: of I spent a decent chunk of Friday afternoon going

1977
02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:21,800
Speaker 5: through donated stuff. Some of it's great, some of it

1978
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:25,760
Speaker 5: I'm afraid. Like, if a jacket is has giant holes

1979
02:03:25,760 --> 02:03:27,560
Speaker 5: in it for you, it also has giant holes in

1980
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:29,360
Speaker 5: it for someone who's less rich than you, and it

1981
02:03:29,680 --> 02:03:32,680
Speaker 5: doesn't keep them any warmer than it keeps you, so like,

1982
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:36,040
Speaker 5: you know, it's better if people send money, but that's

1983
02:03:36,080 --> 02:03:38,360
Speaker 5: taken its toll on people. It's taking its toll on

1984
02:03:38,360 --> 02:03:40,360
Speaker 5: the people in the camps too, not to say that

1985
02:03:40,440 --> 02:03:43,920
Speaker 5: they're not in very good spirits. Like it's so I

1986
02:03:43,960 --> 02:03:45,800
Speaker 5: was there at about ten o'clock at night when people

1987
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:48,560
Speaker 5: What happens, right is people walk around the gaps in

1988
02:03:48,600 --> 02:03:52,280
Speaker 5: the wall, which again didn't come up in Elon Musk's video.

1989
02:03:52,360 --> 02:03:54,520
Speaker 5: Right there are giant, yawning gaps in the wall because

1990
02:03:54,520 --> 02:03:55,800
Speaker 5: they were trying to build as much of it as

1991
02:03:55,800 --> 02:03:58,760
Speaker 5: possible before the twenty twenty election, and so they skipped

1992
02:03:58,800 --> 02:04:01,640
Speaker 5: the hard parts. So people walk through where the wall stops,

1993
02:04:02,320 --> 02:04:05,440
Speaker 5: they're met by border patrol. Border patrol then drives them.

1994
02:04:05,480 --> 02:04:07,160
Speaker 5: I don't mean drive somebody like put them in the

1995
02:04:07,160 --> 02:04:08,800
Speaker 5: back of the vehicle. I mean drive them like you

1996
02:04:08,840 --> 02:04:11,280
Speaker 5: would drive cattle, by going behind them in a vehicle

1997
02:04:11,600 --> 02:04:16,400
Speaker 5: and pushing them forward and walks them into the camp, right,

1998
02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:19,680
Speaker 5: and then they arrive in the camp, and it's it's

1999
02:04:20,000 --> 02:04:23,440
Speaker 5: they arrive and like I was going up to ascertained,

2000
02:04:23,600 --> 02:04:25,520
Speaker 5: you know what sort of group it was? Were they

2001
02:04:25,640 --> 02:04:29,080
Speaker 5: people who were in severe distress? Right, like hypothermic or

2002
02:04:29,120 --> 02:04:31,680
Speaker 5: hurt or injured. I know someone came later in a

2003
02:04:31,680 --> 02:04:34,080
Speaker 5: week who had a very bad injury, who had fallen

2004
02:04:34,120 --> 02:04:37,960
Speaker 5: maybe trying to climb the wall. And so you're going

2005
02:04:38,000 --> 02:04:39,600
Speaker 5: to kind of trite that group, right, And some people

2006
02:04:39,640 --> 02:04:42,680
Speaker 5: were really start they're in America, like, and then they

2007
02:04:42,760 --> 02:04:44,280
Speaker 5: wanted to give me like a hug or a fist

2008
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:46,720
Speaker 5: bump and be like, yeah, I'm here. Obviously some of

2009
02:04:46,720 --> 02:04:50,080
Speaker 5: them weren't prepared. None of them were prepared for sleeping outside.

2010
02:04:50,720 --> 02:04:53,760
Speaker 5: And then generally, like there have been large kind of

2011
02:04:54,320 --> 02:04:58,160
Speaker 5: just shelters made out of cacti or brush or scrub

2012
02:04:58,240 --> 02:05:01,920
Speaker 5: or whatever's there, which tend to be based around like

2013
02:05:02,120 --> 02:05:05,160
Speaker 5: national groups, right, just people have their community so that

2014
02:05:05,240 --> 02:05:08,480
Speaker 5: it's one for Colombian people, Brazilian people, punt Jabi, Sikh people.

2015
02:05:09,160 --> 02:05:13,400
Speaker 5: There were Kurdish people, Turkish, a lot of Turkish people,

2016
02:05:13,680 --> 02:05:16,120
Speaker 5: Afghan people, and so they kind of because they can

2017
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:18,400
Speaker 5: talk to each other, they'll be like, hey, come over here,

2018
02:05:18,480 --> 02:05:21,240
Speaker 5: Afghan friend, like you know, we'll look after you. We've

2019
02:05:21,280 --> 02:05:23,360
Speaker 5: got this shelter set out, we've got a fire going,

2020
02:05:23,720 --> 02:05:28,160
Speaker 5: get yourself warm. And then those people can spend anywhere

2021
02:05:28,200 --> 02:05:31,600
Speaker 5: from one to three days there before they're taken out right,

2022
02:05:31,680 --> 02:05:35,920
Speaker 5: and so like, it's an extremely bad situation and it

2023
02:05:35,960 --> 02:05:39,480
Speaker 5: will only get worse, So weather gets worse. Talking of

2024
02:05:39,520 --> 02:05:43,480
Speaker 5: things which which are bad, should should we should we

2025
02:05:43,480 --> 02:05:45,480
Speaker 5: take this opportunity to pivot to things that people don't

2026
02:05:45,520 --> 02:05:46,000
Speaker 5: need to buy.

2027
02:05:46,640 --> 02:05:56,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, they definitely need to buy them, James, because pass anyway,

2028
02:05:56,240 --> 02:05:56,760
Speaker 1: here's ads.

2029
02:05:57,960 --> 02:06:01,440
Speaker 5: All right, we're back, hopeful you have repleted. You're a

2030
02:06:01,480 --> 02:06:06,400
Speaker 5: pile of goldgoyins. So I wanted to return to addressing

2031
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:09,040
Speaker 5: some words of disinformation that Elon Muskot from Men and

2032
02:06:09,080 --> 02:06:11,800
Speaker 5: cowboy hats. One of the things they talked about a

2033
02:06:11,800 --> 02:06:15,760
Speaker 5: lot was that they talk about numbers, right, They're like, oh,

2034
02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:19,520
Speaker 5: there are two million, there are four million. At no

2035
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:23,000
Speaker 5: point do they say what these numbers represent. Are these

2036
02:06:23,080 --> 02:06:27,800
Speaker 5: numbers net migration? Are they border crossings between ports of entry?

2037
02:06:28,400 --> 02:06:32,200
Speaker 5: Are they the number of asylum cases? Are they the

2038
02:06:32,280 --> 02:06:34,880
Speaker 5: number of encounters the border patrol has had? Because as

2039
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:38,240
Speaker 5: we know, right, an encounter doesn't necessarily mean individual. If

2040
02:06:38,240 --> 02:06:40,040
Speaker 5: one person crosses two or three times, that's two or

2041
02:06:40,080 --> 02:06:44,000
Speaker 5: three encounters, right, And they never talk about that because

2042
02:06:44,040 --> 02:06:47,520
Speaker 5: they're just pulling this shit out their asses. If you

2043
02:06:47,920 --> 02:06:51,880
Speaker 5: want information, these people are not people to get it from.

2044
02:06:52,560 --> 02:06:55,240
Speaker 5: None of them are even working in border enforcement.

2045
02:06:55,280 --> 02:06:55,440
Speaker 3: Right.

2046
02:06:55,440 --> 02:06:58,840
Speaker 5: These were sheriffs that he spoke to. They talk a

2047
02:06:58,880 --> 02:07:02,400
Speaker 5: lot about how there are quote unquote two million of them,

2048
02:07:02,480 --> 02:07:06,760
Speaker 5: but the real number is four or five million because

2049
02:07:06,800 --> 02:07:11,040
Speaker 5: of the quote unquote gotaways a people who have not

2050
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:13,200
Speaker 5: been processed at all. Right, They have entered between ports

2051
02:07:13,200 --> 02:07:18,240
Speaker 5: of entry and then are undocumented. This is nonsense. People

2052
02:07:18,640 --> 02:07:23,240
Speaker 5: don't want to be undocumented. People are here because they

2053
02:07:23,280 --> 02:07:27,480
Speaker 5: believe they have a legitimate asylum claim. They are fleeing violence, right,

2054
02:07:27,480 --> 02:07:29,240
Speaker 5: they have one of the We've been over to five

2055
02:07:29,280 --> 02:07:32,000
Speaker 5: categories that you can get asylum for before on the podcast.

2056
02:07:32,080 --> 02:07:35,640
Speaker 5: I won't read them out again, but I have seen people.

2057
02:07:36,240 --> 02:07:39,240
Speaker 5: For instance, I saw one person who they were transported

2058
02:07:39,280 --> 02:07:40,920
Speaker 5: to the hospital. The hospital let them out on the

2059
02:07:40,960 --> 02:07:43,680
Speaker 5: street in San Diego. They took a cab back to

2060
02:07:43,760 --> 02:07:47,160
Speaker 5: the border because they don't want to just be floating

2061
02:07:47,200 --> 02:07:49,760
Speaker 5: around in the US with no papers and able to work,

2062
02:07:49,880 --> 02:07:52,240
Speaker 5: worried that like a parking ticket or a traffic stock

2063
02:07:52,400 --> 02:07:55,280
Speaker 5: could send them back to wherever they'd fled from. Right,

2064
02:07:55,360 --> 02:07:58,280
Speaker 5: Because they've fled because they're afraid of something, and they

2065
02:07:58,280 --> 02:07:59,720
Speaker 5: don't want to be sent back.

2066
02:08:00,440 --> 02:08:02,120
Speaker 13: I think something that really bothered me in the video

2067
02:08:02,320 --> 02:08:06,320
Speaker 13: was how much they emphasize that, Like, remember, most of

2068
02:08:06,360 --> 02:08:09,680
Speaker 13: these people that can be escaping prison, they're all in

2069
02:08:10,040 --> 02:08:12,680
Speaker 13: they used to be incarcerated. And I'm just like, what, Like,

2070
02:08:12,800 --> 02:08:16,040
Speaker 13: that's not it's just like this fear mongering tactic that's

2071
02:08:16,080 --> 02:08:19,360
Speaker 13: so silly and trying to make people all believe that

2072
02:08:19,360 --> 02:08:23,720
Speaker 13: there's everyone at the border are just like prison inmates essentially.

2073
02:08:24,360 --> 02:08:24,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2074
02:08:24,680 --> 02:08:27,560
Speaker 1: The other side, all you often get is like, well,

2075
02:08:27,560 --> 02:08:29,720
Speaker 1: they're all young men heading over, and a lot of

2076
02:08:29,800 --> 02:08:32,640
Speaker 1: times of this like some of this is like racial panic,

2077
02:08:32,680 --> 02:08:34,640
Speaker 1: they're gonna you know, take our women or whatever. Some

2078
02:08:34,680 --> 02:08:37,520
Speaker 1: of this is like, you know, men are soldiers, you know,

2079
02:08:37,560 --> 02:08:41,960
Speaker 1: it's military. The reality is that, like, especially when you're

2080
02:08:41,960 --> 02:08:43,960
Speaker 1: talking about like the migrants who are crossing the fucking

2081
02:08:44,040 --> 02:08:47,120
Speaker 1: dairy and gap, this is an incredibly dangerous journey. Young

2082
02:08:47,160 --> 02:08:50,440
Speaker 1: men are generally a little more capable physically of it.

2083
02:08:50,480 --> 02:08:54,400
Speaker 1: And also it's you know, especially given some realities of

2084
02:08:54,520 --> 02:08:56,560
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, these cultures, that's who you

2085
02:08:56,640 --> 02:08:59,080
Speaker 1: expect to go and make money and send it back

2086
02:08:59,120 --> 02:09:03,320
Speaker 1: to their families like that that's just like it's they're

2087
02:09:03,320 --> 02:09:06,320
Speaker 1: not invading you. You know, this is like, these are

2088
02:09:06,360 --> 02:09:09,040
Speaker 1: the people who are going to work jobs and send

2089
02:09:09,080 --> 02:09:10,400
Speaker 1: money back to their families.

2090
02:09:11,240 --> 02:09:14,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, like we live in a society which is both patriarchial,

2091
02:09:14,400 --> 02:09:17,720
Speaker 5: patriarch and misogynist. Right, They're able to command a higher

2092
02:09:17,760 --> 02:09:20,520
Speaker 5: wage and they can use that to keep their families alive.

2093
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:24,360
Speaker 5: I've spoken to lots of families for whom the young

2094
02:09:24,440 --> 02:09:28,080
Speaker 5: men left the country there in first earned money somewhere else,

2095
02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:30,400
Speaker 5: and then was able to raise enough money to get

2096
02:09:30,400 --> 02:09:33,000
Speaker 5: the rest of their family smuggled out or to facilitate

2097
02:09:33,040 --> 02:09:35,120
Speaker 5: their transport and then bring them to the US because

2098
02:09:35,120 --> 02:09:37,520
Speaker 5: they thought it wasn't safe for them there. Also, like,

2099
02:09:37,600 --> 02:09:41,120
Speaker 5: if you're a military aged male in some countries Russia

2100
02:09:41,240 --> 02:09:43,400
Speaker 5: or lots of countries in the sahell, now you could

2101
02:09:43,400 --> 02:09:47,960
Speaker 5: be forcibly drafted right into one of any number of

2102
02:09:48,720 --> 02:09:52,440
Speaker 5: conflicts that you want no part of. And I wouldn't

2103
02:09:52,440 --> 02:09:54,640
Speaker 5: want to do that either. I'd want to leave right

2104
02:09:55,000 --> 02:09:57,120
Speaker 5: And I've spoken to people who have fled that kind

2105
02:09:57,160 --> 02:10:01,600
Speaker 5: of situation this week. So Yeah, of the gender balance,

2106
02:10:01,840 --> 02:10:03,400
Speaker 5: I don't know, it's very hard to get a sense

2107
02:10:03,400 --> 02:10:06,080
Speaker 5: of the actual gender balance because border patrol tends to

2108
02:10:06,080 --> 02:10:10,160
Speaker 5: process women and children first, and especially unaccompany children of

2109
02:10:10,160 --> 02:10:13,560
Speaker 5: course first, but it's very hard to get into the

2110
02:10:13,640 --> 02:10:18,200
Speaker 5: actual gender balance without like looking at border patrol statistics,

2111
02:10:18,200 --> 02:10:20,160
Speaker 5: and they take a month or two to come out generally. Yeah,

2112
02:10:20,280 --> 02:10:23,000
Speaker 5: they talk about people with tear drop tattoos. I would

2113
02:10:23,120 --> 02:10:25,360
Speaker 5: estimate that I have seen tens, if not hundreds of

2114
02:10:25,440 --> 02:10:28,360
Speaker 5: thousands of people at the southern border. I've never seen

2115
02:10:28,400 --> 02:10:31,600
Speaker 5: anyone with the tear drop tattoo a leg. You'd have

2116
02:10:31,680 --> 02:10:33,080
Speaker 5: to be all to have.

2117
02:10:33,200 --> 02:10:36,200
Speaker 13: They described these like hordes of people trying to get

2118
02:10:36,280 --> 02:10:37,080
Speaker 13: into your home.

2119
02:10:38,600 --> 02:10:42,960
Speaker 5: Yes, I genuinely think that someone looked up I don't know,

2120
02:10:43,080 --> 02:10:47,840
Speaker 5: like Latino gangster on Google images, like right before, like

2121
02:10:48,040 --> 02:10:51,400
Speaker 5: racist Google images or whatever, like before they before they

2122
02:10:51,440 --> 02:10:53,240
Speaker 5: went down to the border. Like, I've never seen anyone

2123
02:10:53,240 --> 02:10:54,520
Speaker 5: with a tear drop tattoo. You'd have to be a

2124
02:10:54,560 --> 02:10:57,160
Speaker 5: bit of a lemon to like present yourself for asylum

2125
02:10:57,240 --> 02:11:00,680
Speaker 5: with obvious like stuff like that. They're asolutely going to

2126
02:11:00,680 --> 02:11:02,600
Speaker 5: ask you about your tattoos, or they'll ask you about everything.

2127
02:11:03,480 --> 02:11:07,240
Speaker 5: It's just laughable, it's ridiculous. It's all based in myth

2128
02:11:07,800 --> 02:11:12,280
Speaker 5: and not in reality. And what troubles me the most

2129
02:11:12,320 --> 02:11:13,800
Speaker 5: I think is I don't know how many people have

2130
02:11:13,880 --> 02:11:16,760
Speaker 5: watched Elon Musk's live stream, right, and hopefully most of

2131
02:11:16,800 --> 02:11:19,400
Speaker 5: them that did saw someone completely incapable of like asking

2132
02:11:19,480 --> 02:11:23,480
Speaker 5: interrogated questions, or reversing the camera on his phone, or

2133
02:11:23,560 --> 02:11:28,200
Speaker 5: look dressing like a cowboy. But there has been, to

2134
02:11:28,360 --> 02:11:31,920
Speaker 5: my knowledge, no national network coverage of what's happening in

2135
02:11:32,000 --> 02:11:34,800
Speaker 5: a cumber right. There has been limited local coverage of

2136
02:11:34,880 --> 02:11:36,839
Speaker 5: what's happening in U Cumba. What that has has already

2137
02:11:36,960 --> 02:11:38,880
Speaker 5: stopped because like it was a kind of one and

2138
02:11:38,960 --> 02:11:42,760
Speaker 5: done situation for a lot of outlets, but it's not

2139
02:11:42,880 --> 02:11:45,520
Speaker 5: one and done for the people who are volunteering, and

2140
02:11:45,640 --> 02:11:46,960
Speaker 5: it's not one and done for the people who are

2141
02:11:46,960 --> 02:11:50,160
Speaker 5: still arriving right like there are we're going to see

2142
02:11:50,160 --> 02:11:52,320
Speaker 5: more of this in between now and twenty twenty four.

2143
02:11:53,280 --> 02:11:57,920
Speaker 5: The border is clearly an area that both parties, I guess,

2144
02:11:58,040 --> 02:12:00,640
Speaker 5: have decided that they can grandstand on and can show

2145
02:12:00,720 --> 02:12:05,040
Speaker 5: himself as being quote unquote tough on migration, Like, no,

2146
02:12:05,160 --> 02:12:06,520
Speaker 5: I don't want to live in a world where our

2147
02:12:06,600 --> 02:12:09,160
Speaker 5: leaders are tough on little babies who just walked across

2148
02:12:09,200 --> 02:12:10,560
Speaker 5: a desert like that's a fucked up thing to be

2149
02:12:10,640 --> 02:12:13,000
Speaker 5: tough on. It could be tough on corporate corruption if

2150
02:12:13,000 --> 02:12:15,840
Speaker 5: you want to like front up to someone. And I

2151
02:12:15,880 --> 02:12:18,560
Speaker 5: think the Republicans are going to push on by iten

2152
02:12:18,640 --> 02:12:21,760
Speaker 5: being weak on the border. There will be more migration

2153
02:12:21,920 --> 02:12:24,080
Speaker 5: this year than we have seen a long time because

2154
02:12:24,800 --> 02:12:28,600
Speaker 5: we created a backlog, right because climate change is worse

2155
02:12:28,720 --> 02:12:32,280
Speaker 5: every single year, and like I think, as we've documented

2156
02:12:32,320 --> 02:12:35,560
Speaker 5: extensively on our show, parts of the world are becoming

2157
02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:38,400
Speaker 5: less and less survivable. I went to the Martial Landers

2158
02:12:38,400 --> 02:12:42,080
Speaker 5: this summer. They are disappearing, So of course people are

2159
02:12:42,160 --> 02:12:44,080
Speaker 5: going to want to come to somewhere where they feel safe.

2160
02:12:44,160 --> 02:12:46,160
Speaker 5: There are record numbers of people crossing the Dairy and

2161
02:12:46,240 --> 02:12:50,520
Speaker 5: Gap right now. That is something that will result in

2162
02:12:50,560 --> 02:12:52,400
Speaker 5: record numbers of people showing up a border.

2163
02:12:53,840 --> 02:12:56,960
Speaker 1: And for every group of people who make it across

2164
02:12:57,120 --> 02:13:00,720
Speaker 1: the Dairy and Gap, there's folks who don't like. Taking

2165
02:13:00,800 --> 02:13:04,120
Speaker 1: that journey on foot without kind of access to modern

2166
02:13:04,240 --> 02:13:08,600
Speaker 1: quality overlanding equipment is like putting a bullet in a

2167
02:13:08,680 --> 02:13:11,080
Speaker 1: revolver and playing a game of Russian Roulette. Like it's

2168
02:13:11,120 --> 02:13:12,760
Speaker 1: extremely dangerous.

2169
02:13:12,760 --> 02:13:15,240
Speaker 5: Yes, not to mention that you'll be preyed upon, like

2170
02:13:15,440 --> 02:13:18,840
Speaker 5: all the way and they talked about the trains. Actually

2171
02:13:18,920 --> 02:13:21,000
Speaker 5: that video as well, how the migrants control the trains

2172
02:13:21,600 --> 02:13:24,000
Speaker 5: fuck off? Like I have seen people who have lost

2173
02:13:24,120 --> 02:13:28,480
Speaker 5: limbs on trains, right like these that's an incredible jumping

2174
02:13:28,520 --> 02:13:31,200
Speaker 5: on a moving train. It's not an advisable form of

2175
02:13:31,240 --> 02:13:34,840
Speaker 5: transport and it's not a safe one. And the fact

2176
02:13:34,880 --> 02:13:36,600
Speaker 5: that people feel they have to take it suggests that

2177
02:13:36,720 --> 02:13:40,320
Speaker 5: what they are fleeing feels even less safe to them.

2178
02:13:40,800 --> 02:13:40,960
Speaker 4: Right.

2179
02:13:41,800 --> 02:13:44,880
Speaker 5: I don't have children, but like if I was to

2180
02:13:44,960 --> 02:13:47,640
Speaker 5: take my kids and grab onto a moving train, I

2181
02:13:47,680 --> 02:13:49,520
Speaker 5: would only do that if I thought that what I

2182
02:13:49,640 --> 02:13:52,480
Speaker 5: was fleeing was less safe than that moving train. Yeah,

2183
02:13:52,560 --> 02:13:53,560
Speaker 5: And to talk about the.

2184
02:13:53,640 --> 02:13:56,960
Speaker 13: Last resort literally, like that's how desperate you are to

2185
02:13:57,200 --> 02:14:00,360
Speaker 13: better situation. It's not like I don't know, it just

2186
02:14:00,480 --> 02:14:03,360
Speaker 13: makes me the rhet the rhetoric is all backwards about that.

2187
02:14:04,280 --> 02:14:06,520
Speaker 5: Yes, Like when you look at what some of these

2188
02:14:06,560 --> 02:14:10,240
Speaker 5: people are fleeing, right, Like on Friday, I was helping

2189
02:14:10,600 --> 02:14:12,800
Speaker 5: hand out water bottles and I was there was a

2190
02:14:13,160 --> 02:14:15,280
Speaker 5: Punjabi man helping me, right Like he was one of

2191
02:14:15,320 --> 02:14:19,839
Speaker 5: the volunteers who who was like helping us to distribute

2192
02:14:19,880 --> 02:14:22,240
Speaker 5: food and helping us to communicate with people in the

2193
02:14:22,280 --> 02:14:25,280
Speaker 5: language they could understand. Very nice guy. And I was

2194
02:14:25,320 --> 02:14:28,760
Speaker 5: thinking about like the stuff that's happening in India right now,

2195
02:14:29,000 --> 02:14:31,560
Speaker 5: right like and the way that that country is becoming

2196
02:14:31,960 --> 02:14:35,760
Speaker 5: increasingly like monolithic. I guess Hindu nationalists. I guess you

2197
02:14:35,800 --> 02:14:39,720
Speaker 5: could call it. And that's fair, right, Robert, Yeah, yeah,

2198
02:14:39,840 --> 02:14:42,280
Speaker 5: like mod it's not getting any safer for them there,

2199
02:14:42,320 --> 02:14:45,160
Speaker 5: and I've seen tons more seek people than I've ever

2200
02:14:45,200 --> 02:14:46,280
Speaker 5: seen at the border before.

2201
02:14:46,840 --> 02:14:49,280
Speaker 1: No, there was a a I mean, fuck, it's it's

2202
02:14:49,360 --> 02:14:53,320
Speaker 1: not necessarily safe in Canada, right where one of those

2203
02:14:53,400 --> 02:14:54,880
Speaker 1: guys got murdered recently.

2204
02:14:55,000 --> 02:14:55,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2205
02:14:55,280 --> 02:14:57,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, well they have been in America too, right, someone

2206
02:14:57,120 --> 02:14:59,120
Speaker 5: shut up a good water thinking it was a mosque

2207
02:14:59,200 --> 02:15:02,440
Speaker 5: because they fucking differentiate between different faiths and they sort

2208
02:15:02,480 --> 02:15:02,920
Speaker 5: of turban.

2209
02:15:03,400 --> 02:15:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean in Canada, I believe it was a

2210
02:15:05,640 --> 02:15:08,480
Speaker 1: Sikh man who got assassinated at the behest of the

2211
02:15:08,560 --> 02:15:14,280
Speaker 1: Modi government. Oh wow, Jesus Christ. Yeah, Western intelligence led

2212
02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:19,640
Speaker 1: to Canada accusing India of SEK activists assassination. It's a

2213
02:15:19,760 --> 02:15:22,680
Speaker 1: fella named I just want to make sure because this

2214
02:15:22,760 --> 02:15:24,800
Speaker 1: is a story people should we may do some more

2215
02:15:25,080 --> 02:15:28,600
Speaker 1: direct coverage on this, but yeah, there was a guy

2216
02:15:28,680 --> 02:15:33,040
Speaker 1: named Hardeep Singh Nijar who was a Sikh separatist activist

2217
02:15:33,160 --> 02:15:37,200
Speaker 1: and was gunned down by two mask men in British Columbia.

2218
02:15:38,240 --> 02:15:40,800
Speaker 1: India denies that this was at their behest, but yeah,

2219
02:15:40,880 --> 02:15:43,080
Speaker 1: like this is and this is by the way, it's

2220
02:15:43,120 --> 02:15:46,560
Speaker 1: not just a thing that India does. Political assassinations from

2221
02:15:46,600 --> 02:15:51,520
Speaker 1: authoritarian directed by authoritarian countries in Western countries have become

2222
02:15:51,560 --> 02:15:53,360
Speaker 1: more and more common, right. A lot of this started

2223
02:15:53,440 --> 02:15:56,879
Speaker 1: with with what Russia was doing, the poisoning, the Scarpol

2224
02:15:56,920 --> 02:15:59,880
Speaker 1: poisonings and stuff. But like this is growing more calm,

2225
02:16:00,040 --> 02:16:03,240
Speaker 1: and is this sort of like rules based international order

2226
02:16:03,360 --> 02:16:05,160
Speaker 1: that I think to some extent we all kind of

2227
02:16:05,240 --> 02:16:09,360
Speaker 1: tricked ourselves into thinking existed increasingly breaks down. But that's

2228
02:16:09,400 --> 02:16:11,440
Speaker 1: all to say, there's a good reason why a lot

2229
02:16:11,520 --> 02:16:13,400
Speaker 1: of Sikhs might be trying to come into the US

2230
02:16:13,600 --> 02:16:13,920
Speaker 1: right now.

2231
02:16:14,240 --> 02:16:16,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, there's a good reason why I'm seeing so

2232
02:16:16,400 --> 02:16:19,240
Speaker 5: many of them on the border. There's a good reason

2233
02:16:19,240 --> 02:16:21,920
Speaker 5: why I'm seeing a ton more people from Russia, right Yeah.

2234
02:16:22,200 --> 02:16:24,280
Speaker 5: And they don't want to go on record, and that's

2235
02:16:24,360 --> 02:16:27,360
Speaker 5: because they're very afraid, right, They've come from a totalitarian

2236
02:16:27,440 --> 02:16:29,960
Speaker 5: state which can hunt them down, as Robert just illustrated,

2237
02:16:30,000 --> 02:16:33,120
Speaker 5: anywhere in the world, and so they don't want to talk, right,

2238
02:16:33,959 --> 02:16:36,840
Speaker 5: I'm seeing people coming from Columbia, Hondora, Squaff and Marla.

2239
02:16:37,080 --> 02:16:39,080
Speaker 5: One of the things that Musk was shocked about was that, like,

2240
02:16:39,680 --> 02:16:42,560
Speaker 5: not all of these people in Mexican. I don't know

2241
02:16:42,680 --> 02:16:47,440
Speaker 5: how big he thinks Mexico is and what he believes

2242
02:16:47,480 --> 02:16:49,959
Speaker 5: the population of Mexico to be, but at one minute

2243
02:16:49,959 --> 02:16:53,000
Speaker 5: he it's two million a year. Does he think Mexico

2244
02:16:53,160 --> 02:16:55,320
Speaker 5: is just like dwindling and there are like eight people left?

2245
02:16:55,560 --> 02:16:59,640
Speaker 5: Like Mexico is a large country, but like it does

2246
02:16:59,720 --> 02:17:03,160
Speaker 5: not provide us with millions of migrants a year, and

2247
02:17:04,080 --> 02:17:09,600
Speaker 5: more of that like comically impossible narrative, right, Like whatever

2248
02:17:09,760 --> 02:17:11,560
Speaker 5: I mean people and people are going to believe it.

2249
02:17:11,959 --> 02:17:13,800
Speaker 13: It's just part of the show.

2250
02:17:14,400 --> 02:17:16,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it confirms a lot of biases that always exist.

2251
02:17:17,080 --> 02:17:21,600
Speaker 5: And I guess hopefully we've dismissed some of that nonsense.

2252
02:17:21,959 --> 02:17:23,680
Speaker 5: And I think I don't. I think people who listen

2253
02:17:23,680 --> 02:17:25,560
Speaker 5: to this generally have empathy anyway, But hopefully this has

2254
02:17:25,600 --> 02:17:28,119
Speaker 5: given you some tools to talk about this to other people.

2255
02:17:28,560 --> 02:17:31,960
Speaker 5: What they will say is like I'm not a big

2256
02:17:32,040 --> 02:17:35,080
Speaker 5: representative caller. I called my representative to help with a

2257
02:17:35,120 --> 02:17:38,440
Speaker 5: migration case for someone from Myanmar who asked for our help.

2258
02:17:38,840 --> 02:17:41,920
Speaker 5: She was useless. But maybe this is an area where

2259
02:17:42,040 --> 02:17:46,080
Speaker 5: like the federal government has water buffalos, right, big water containers,

2260
02:17:46,160 --> 02:17:48,720
Speaker 5: it has MRIs. If these were American citizens and this

2261
02:17:48,959 --> 02:17:51,480
Speaker 5: was a hurricane or an earthquake, that shit would be there.

2262
02:17:51,600 --> 02:17:54,320
Speaker 5: It's not because they don't think that they matter as much.

2263
02:17:55,400 --> 02:17:58,040
Speaker 5: San Diego County has declared emergency and so they can't

2264
02:17:58,040 --> 02:18:02,560
Speaker 5: do anything. That's complete fucking nonsense. They again, they could

2265
02:18:02,640 --> 02:18:06,640
Speaker 5: if these were American citizens, they would if these people

2266
02:18:06,760 --> 02:18:09,840
Speaker 5: were like white wealthy people living in Lahoya. They're choosing

2267
02:18:09,959 --> 02:18:12,960
Speaker 5: not to because they don't think it will hurt them

2268
02:18:13,320 --> 02:18:17,640
Speaker 5: and like it. Maybe it won't, right, But I think

2269
02:18:17,720 --> 02:18:20,360
Speaker 5: you can make a meaningful difference by donating your money,

2270
02:18:20,440 --> 02:18:24,760
Speaker 5: because the only people who are helping are the dozen

2271
02:18:24,959 --> 02:18:28,480
Speaker 5: or so folks right like who all convoyed out there

2272
02:18:28,520 --> 02:18:30,400
Speaker 5: on Friday night down a dirt road in our trucks

2273
02:18:30,520 --> 02:18:34,200
Speaker 5: and handed out the beans and rice and ritz crackers.

2274
02:18:34,320 --> 02:18:37,160
Speaker 5: But you can make a difference of your money. The

2275
02:18:37,360 --> 02:18:40,800
Speaker 5: border kindness links are put in the description. Again, you

2276
02:18:40,879 --> 02:18:43,680
Speaker 5: can also make a difference, maybe by calling your representative

2277
02:18:43,720 --> 02:18:47,480
Speaker 5: and shaming them, because this is a government created problem,

2278
02:18:48,320 --> 02:18:50,280
Speaker 5: and the government like sticking its hands up in the

2279
02:18:50,320 --> 02:18:52,280
Speaker 5: air and being like, oh no, what a surprise, we'd't

2280
02:18:52,280 --> 02:18:54,480
Speaker 5: know how to do. Yes, they knew this was coming, right,

2281
02:18:54,520 --> 02:18:59,440
Speaker 5: these people, many of them have walked from Colombia. We

2282
02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:02,600
Speaker 5: knew these people were arriving. We've been putting this off

2283
02:19:03,200 --> 02:19:06,160
Speaker 5: since COVID, for three years, since the start of the

2284
02:19:06,240 --> 02:19:09,560
Speaker 5: COVID pandemic. I should say COVID is very much alive.

2285
02:19:10,120 --> 02:19:13,120
Speaker 5: I've seen some people who like obviously weren't able to

2286
02:19:13,200 --> 02:19:15,000
Speaker 5: rap a test everyone, but there are a lot of

2287
02:19:15,040 --> 02:19:18,440
Speaker 5: sick people coughing right, There were people with scabies. There

2288
02:19:18,480 --> 02:19:22,200
Speaker 5: were people who were very unwell. That again, if you

2289
02:19:22,280 --> 02:19:25,039
Speaker 5: detained people in congregate settings and the only masks are

2290
02:19:25,080 --> 02:19:27,200
Speaker 5: the ones that we bring as volunteers, and that's going

2291
02:19:27,240 --> 02:19:31,280
Speaker 5: to happen, right, We'll probably get some infectious disease that

2292
02:19:31,320 --> 02:19:33,480
Speaker 5: they'll get to share with Even if you don't care

2293
02:19:33,720 --> 02:19:36,800
Speaker 5: about other people, Sure it'll come by you and the

2294
02:19:36,879 --> 02:19:41,520
Speaker 5: arts eventually. Right when freaking chicken gun yod, that's not

2295
02:19:42,040 --> 02:19:44,320
Speaker 5: vectored in that fashion, but you know, cholera or something

2296
02:19:44,520 --> 02:19:48,680
Speaker 5: rocks up in America. So I would urge people to

2297
02:19:48,840 --> 02:19:53,240
Speaker 5: do something because so few people are and the only

2298
02:19:53,360 --> 02:19:56,120
Speaker 5: people who are helping our mutual aid groups who are

2299
02:19:56,200 --> 02:20:00,680
Speaker 5: overstretched and stressed and tired and broke. And so if

2300
02:20:00,720 --> 02:20:04,160
Speaker 5: you can help, you should, and well, like whatever that

2301
02:20:04,200 --> 02:20:06,080
Speaker 5: looks like to you, if you want to volunteer, that's great.

2302
02:20:06,440 --> 02:20:08,800
Speaker 5: I would urge you to go through the channels that

2303
02:20:08,879 --> 02:20:11,680
Speaker 5: are set so you don't just show up and look

2304
02:20:11,680 --> 02:20:12,879
Speaker 5: at yourself or someone else.

2305
02:20:12,760 --> 02:20:13,519
Speaker 3: In trouble.

2306
02:20:14,720 --> 02:20:17,959
Speaker 5: Or just make things harder. But yeah, there are meaningful

2307
02:20:18,000 --> 02:20:21,480
Speaker 5: ways that people can help. Very few people are and

2308
02:20:21,720 --> 02:20:24,560
Speaker 5: largely I think that's because the border exists as some

2309
02:20:24,800 --> 02:20:28,600
Speaker 5: kind of World West fantasy for most people consuming media

2310
02:20:28,640 --> 02:20:31,520
Speaker 5: in America. And hopefully, yeah, if you, if you encounter

2311
02:20:31,640 --> 02:20:34,360
Speaker 5: someone who believes that this will help you, give you

2312
02:20:34,400 --> 02:20:36,640
Speaker 5: a little bit of information, a little bit of some

2313
02:20:36,800 --> 02:20:40,000
Speaker 5: tools to dismiss some of that stuff.

2314
02:20:40,920 --> 02:20:46,480
Speaker 13: Yeah, dismiss and demystify really, because it's just thingless, imaginary,

2315
02:20:46,560 --> 02:20:48,279
Speaker 13: big bad wolf that no one really understands.

2316
02:20:48,920 --> 02:20:52,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, totally, Like it's nonsense that everyone in America's a migrant.

2317
02:20:52,320 --> 02:20:55,160
Speaker 5: They are indigenous people here now and they always have been,

2318
02:20:56,200 --> 02:20:59,240
Speaker 5: but a lot of people have some kind of migration story.

2319
02:20:59,600 --> 02:21:01,560
Speaker 5: And like, I don't give a fuck if your great

2320
02:21:01,600 --> 02:21:04,560
Speaker 5: grandpa came here quote unquote legally the barriers were not

2321
02:21:04,600 --> 02:21:06,920
Speaker 5: in place yet. There wasn't a wall when your me

2322
02:21:07,080 --> 02:21:11,480
Speaker 5: mar came from wherever she came from. But like in

2323
02:21:11,600 --> 02:21:14,840
Speaker 5: all of our communities, like this country doesn't work with

2324
02:21:15,000 --> 02:21:17,640
Speaker 5: that the labor of recently arrived for migrants. And like

2325
02:21:18,280 --> 02:21:20,840
Speaker 5: I think, if you look at the news, I go

2326
02:21:21,040 --> 02:21:23,760
Speaker 5: to places where wars are happening, right, That's part of

2327
02:21:23,840 --> 02:21:27,560
Speaker 5: my job, so does Robert, you know. And then I

2328
02:21:27,680 --> 02:21:31,160
Speaker 5: see those people at the border. The reason they're here

2329
02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:33,840
Speaker 5: is because they're fleeing something worse, and I think, like

2330
02:21:34,560 --> 02:21:36,720
Speaker 5: maybe grounding it in that, I don't think anyone would

2331
02:21:36,800 --> 02:21:39,720
Speaker 5: want a little baby to be sleeping in there. I

2332
02:21:39,800 --> 02:21:43,600
Speaker 5: know some pretty conservative people who were pretty outraged by

2333
02:21:43,680 --> 02:21:47,160
Speaker 5: what happened in May, and it's worse now. And yeah,

2334
02:21:47,959 --> 02:21:49,760
Speaker 5: no one in their right mind wants a little baby

2335
02:21:49,879 --> 02:21:52,680
Speaker 5: to be shivering out in the desert. You know, no

2336
02:21:52,800 --> 02:21:55,040
Speaker 5: one in their right mind wants a mother to be

2337
02:21:55,120 --> 02:21:57,920
Speaker 5: breastfeeding and sleeping underneath a cardboard box because that's all

2338
02:21:57,959 --> 02:22:01,560
Speaker 5: she has you know, like the it's not even if

2339
02:22:01,600 --> 02:22:03,760
Speaker 5: you believe in it's very liberal construct to America as

2340
02:22:03,760 --> 02:22:05,560
Speaker 5: a welcoming nation and they shouldn't be who we are

2341
02:22:05,600 --> 02:22:06,160
Speaker 5: and shouldn't be.

2342
02:22:06,160 --> 02:22:06,840
Speaker 3: How we treat people.

2343
02:22:06,920 --> 02:22:09,800
Speaker 5: And if you believe that nation shouldn't exist in borders

2344
02:22:09,800 --> 02:22:11,480
Speaker 5: of bullshit, then no one should be treated like that,

2345
02:22:11,680 --> 02:22:18,320
Speaker 5: and it's on all of us to help. I guess yes, yeah,

2346
02:22:19,600 --> 02:22:24,600
Speaker 5: anything else, guys, No, I think that's about it. Magic. Okay,

2347
02:22:24,800 --> 02:22:26,960
Speaker 5: thank you for joining me for this heartwarming episode.

2348
02:22:27,640 --> 02:22:31,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, everybody that's going to do it for

2349
02:22:31,240 --> 02:22:35,240
Speaker 1: us here at It could happen here until next time.

2350
02:22:35,760 --> 02:22:56,879
Speaker 14: You know, stuff, welcome to it could happen here. I'm

2351
02:22:56,920 --> 02:23:00,320
Speaker 14: Garrison Davis. This is going to be another episode which

2352
02:23:00,440 --> 02:23:04,400
Speaker 14: we're discussing the Defend the Forest and Stop Copcity movement

2353
02:23:04,480 --> 02:23:09,160
Speaker 14: in Atlanta, Georgia. This struggle has always tied together a

2354
02:23:09,240 --> 02:23:12,360
Speaker 14: lot of the aspects that we focus on on this show,

2355
02:23:12,520 --> 02:23:19,320
Speaker 14: between the collapsing climate, political escalation, and how everything just

2356
02:23:19,360 --> 02:23:22,040
Speaker 14: feels like it's kind of getting worse. But through that

2357
02:23:22,280 --> 02:23:28,600
Speaker 14: there's people who respond to this crisis of neoliberalism and

2358
02:23:29,000 --> 02:23:31,360
Speaker 14: band together and figure out how to sort through all

2359
02:23:31,440 --> 02:23:34,200
Speaker 14: of this shit and all that is continuing as the

2360
02:23:34,280 --> 02:23:38,240
Speaker 14: City of Atlanta and State of Georgia unveil new state

2361
02:23:38,320 --> 02:23:42,400
Speaker 14: repression tactics to chill any resistance to the construction of

2362
02:23:42,560 --> 02:23:45,400
Speaker 14: this ninety million dollar police training facility that we have

2363
02:23:45,520 --> 02:23:48,640
Speaker 14: covered in depth in this show the past few years.

2364
02:23:49,360 --> 02:23:51,880
Speaker 14: A few months ago there was another three part series

2365
02:23:51,959 --> 02:23:55,879
Speaker 14: about the sixth Week of Action in June, but new

2366
02:23:55,959 --> 02:23:59,959
Speaker 14: things have happened since then. The referendum has been submitted,

2367
02:24:00,200 --> 02:24:02,879
Speaker 14: so that is all in process. But the same day

2368
02:24:03,000 --> 02:24:06,000
Speaker 14: the construction was scheduled to begin, the State of Georgia

2369
02:24:06,160 --> 02:24:10,200
Speaker 14: indicted sixty one people on RICO charges. RICO is an

2370
02:24:10,240 --> 02:24:15,000
Speaker 14: acronym referring to the Racketeer, Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.

2371
02:24:15,520 --> 02:24:19,760
Speaker 14: This specific act is meant to legally target organizations, and

2372
02:24:20,160 --> 02:24:24,480
Speaker 14: organizations can relate to anything between you know, traditional incorporated

2373
02:24:24,640 --> 02:24:28,560
Speaker 14: organizations or something as loose as like a pickup basketball team,

2374
02:24:29,040 --> 02:24:31,920
Speaker 14: which is how the state is able to paint whole

2375
02:24:32,000 --> 02:24:35,520
Speaker 14: communities of people who are just connected by similar values

2376
02:24:35,800 --> 02:24:40,600
Speaker 14: as being a quote unquote organization. The RICO Act in practice,

2377
02:24:40,720 --> 02:24:43,800
Speaker 14: is basically a way to criminalize a whole community. Now

2378
02:24:44,280 --> 02:24:47,160
Speaker 14: I'm not a lawyer, but I do know lawyers, so

2379
02:24:47,360 --> 02:24:50,600
Speaker 14: for this episode, I brought on Mo Cohen, a lawyer

2380
02:24:50,680 --> 02:24:54,640
Speaker 14: specializing in state repression. So without further ado, here is

2381
02:24:54,720 --> 02:24:58,960
Speaker 14: my conversation with them. Mo, Hello, thank you for joining

2382
02:24:59,000 --> 02:24:59,400
Speaker 14: me today.

2383
02:25:00,080 --> 02:25:01,279
Speaker 4: No grab lim, It's my pleasure.

2384
02:25:02,000 --> 02:25:06,360
Speaker 14: So in late August, the Fulton County District Attorney and

2385
02:25:07,120 --> 02:25:09,199
Speaker 14: other kind of legal entities with the State of Georgia

2386
02:25:09,600 --> 02:25:12,840
Speaker 14: unveiled a whole bunch of RICO charges against I believe

2387
02:25:12,920 --> 02:25:16,920
Speaker 14: sixty one people relating to the Stop Coop City quote

2388
02:25:16,959 --> 02:25:22,160
Speaker 14: unquote movement. It's part of, like like I said, it's

2389
02:25:22,200 --> 02:25:24,640
Speaker 14: an ongoing kind of campaign of repression that we've talked

2390
02:25:24,640 --> 02:25:26,040
Speaker 14: about pretty in depth before.

2391
02:25:26,920 --> 02:25:28,959
Speaker 5: But before we get into the actual like rico.

2392
02:25:28,920 --> 02:25:32,680
Speaker 14: Charges, I first want to kind of talk about the

2393
02:25:33,480 --> 02:25:36,920
Speaker 14: raid that happened against the Atlanta Solidarity Fund earlier this year,

2394
02:25:37,280 --> 02:25:40,360
Speaker 14: and a whole bunch of like financial crime charges that

2395
02:25:40,560 --> 02:25:43,520
Speaker 14: they've been trying to use to suppress the bail fund organizing.

2396
02:25:44,320 --> 02:25:46,680
Speaker 14: I think we've talked about this kind of briefly on

2397
02:25:46,800 --> 02:25:49,440
Speaker 14: the show before, but we've never really gotten very much

2398
02:25:49,600 --> 02:25:52,640
Speaker 14: in depth about it, and from my perspective, a lot

2399
02:25:52,680 --> 02:25:55,240
Speaker 14: of these reco charges are very much related to the

2400
02:25:55,320 --> 02:25:59,520
Speaker 14: repression of the Solidarity Fund mode. I assume you're familiar

2401
02:25:59,720 --> 02:26:05,240
Speaker 14: with the Solidarity Fund raid and the charges against against

2402
02:26:05,280 --> 02:26:07,200
Speaker 14: the Network for Strong Communities.

2403
02:26:07,760 --> 02:26:08,040
Speaker 4: I am.

2404
02:26:08,600 --> 02:26:08,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2405
02:26:09,520 --> 02:26:13,640
Speaker 14: Do we talk a little bit about that event. I

2406
02:26:13,680 --> 02:26:18,440
Speaker 14: think that that happened in May of this year, I believe, so.

2407
02:26:20,080 --> 02:26:25,120
Speaker 4: It wasn't a huge surprise. It wasn't, in my opinion,

2408
02:26:25,320 --> 02:26:29,880
Speaker 4: a very well grounded or legally warranted indictment.

2409
02:26:30,400 --> 02:26:30,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2410
02:26:31,280 --> 02:26:35,200
Speaker 4: And certainly the way that the way that law enforcement

2411
02:26:35,400 --> 02:26:39,439
Speaker 4: went in to retrieve those three people who were indicted

2412
02:26:39,680 --> 02:26:44,680
Speaker 4: was a little extra particularly given the nature of the allegations.

2413
02:26:45,280 --> 02:26:48,600
Speaker 4: I think people who are accused of financial crimes don't

2414
02:26:48,680 --> 02:26:52,280
Speaker 4: typically get taken out with a SWAT team. But I

2415
02:26:52,320 --> 02:26:56,480
Speaker 4: don't think it was a huge surprise that the district

2416
02:26:56,520 --> 02:27:03,920
Speaker 4: attorney brought those charges, because this kind of rego indictment

2417
02:27:04,160 --> 02:27:10,440
Speaker 4: was anticipated. Yes, and those kinds of financial charges or

2418
02:27:10,520 --> 02:27:15,920
Speaker 4: allegations of financial misconduct are sort of the predicate for

2419
02:27:16,280 --> 02:27:19,959
Speaker 4: bringing this kind of sweeping rego indictment.

2420
02:27:20,560 --> 02:27:20,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2421
02:27:21,520 --> 02:27:23,560
Speaker 14: And I think like in like the weeks and months

2422
02:27:23,640 --> 02:27:27,160
Speaker 14: prior to the SWAT raid against the Solidarity Fund in May,

2423
02:27:27,640 --> 02:27:31,880
Speaker 14: people at the Solidarity Fund were basically warning that they were.

2424
02:27:32,000 --> 02:27:35,480
Speaker 14: They were like suspecting that they would that there would

2425
02:27:35,480 --> 02:27:37,880
Speaker 14: be some form of reco charges used against the movement,

2426
02:27:38,600 --> 02:27:40,240
Speaker 14: and everyone was kind of like preparing for that. That

2427
02:27:40,320 --> 02:27:42,880
Speaker 14: was definitely that was definitely talked about as like as

2428
02:27:42,920 --> 02:27:47,200
Speaker 14: a potential like a tactic of of suppression. You know

2429
02:27:47,520 --> 02:27:49,560
Speaker 14: when you say that the types of like financial crime

2430
02:27:49,640 --> 02:27:52,800
Speaker 14: like fraud charges that that were brought against this the

2431
02:27:52,840 --> 02:27:57,960
Speaker 14: sole Fund people, how they seem kind of unwarranted. That

2432
02:27:58,160 --> 02:28:01,600
Speaker 14: is something that the judge in the bond hearing kind

2433
02:28:01,640 --> 02:28:06,000
Speaker 14: of agreed with. The judge was unimpressed, Yes that I

2434
02:28:06,120 --> 02:28:08,879
Speaker 14: I I I I listened to the uh I listened

2435
02:28:08,879 --> 02:28:12,040
Speaker 14: to the hearing, and the judge is very skeptical of

2436
02:28:12,240 --> 02:28:16,240
Speaker 14: the prosecution's claims and basically told the prosecution like, if

2437
02:28:16,280 --> 02:28:18,480
Speaker 14: you like actually want this to like succeed like in

2438
02:28:18,600 --> 02:28:21,520
Speaker 14: actual like court, you know, once once this progresses, you're

2439
02:28:21,640 --> 02:28:23,680
Speaker 14: you're gonna have to have a much much stronger case

2440
02:28:23,680 --> 02:28:26,800
Speaker 14: because this all seems kind of like nonsense. But you

2441
02:28:26,879 --> 02:28:29,520
Speaker 14: know that that didn't stop the prosecutors and the uh

2442
02:28:29,840 --> 02:28:33,640
Speaker 14: I believe it's the Attorney General Office as well of

2443
02:28:33,760 --> 02:28:38,200
Speaker 14: Georgia of using using kind of some stuff from this

2444
02:28:38,600 --> 02:28:41,080
Speaker 14: from this raid against the Solidarity Fund and trying to

2445
02:28:41,160 --> 02:28:44,360
Speaker 14: kind of tie together this grand conspiracy narrative that we.

2446
02:28:44,440 --> 02:28:47,120
Speaker 5: Now see in this uh in this Rico indictment.

2447
02:28:47,280 --> 02:28:50,520
Speaker 14: So let's I guess, let's let's talk a little bit

2448
02:28:50,520 --> 02:28:54,480
Speaker 14: about the Rico indictment at this At this point, So,

2449
02:28:54,640 --> 02:28:56,600
Speaker 14: Rico is a very like scary word, right, Like this

2450
02:28:56,720 --> 02:28:58,440
Speaker 14: is like I feel like everyone kind of knows about

2451
02:28:58,440 --> 02:29:01,040
Speaker 14: like rico, like like a pop culture like it's like

2452
02:29:01,080 --> 02:29:04,160
Speaker 14: geist sense. But do I actually like talk about like

2453
02:29:04,240 --> 02:29:06,800
Speaker 14: what these types of rico charges actually are because like

2454
02:29:07,440 --> 02:29:10,440
Speaker 14: you know, most people, even if they charged with the crime, right,

2455
02:29:10,480 --> 02:29:12,360
Speaker 14: most people don't ever like have to deal with like

2456
02:29:12,440 --> 02:29:13,680
Speaker 14: rico as like a concept.

2457
02:29:15,040 --> 02:29:15,440
Speaker 5: So do it?

2458
02:29:15,720 --> 02:29:17,400
Speaker 14: You know, if if you're like a resident of protest

2459
02:29:17,440 --> 02:29:20,080
Speaker 14: to get like you know, pedestrian in roadway, there's like

2460
02:29:20,120 --> 02:29:22,560
Speaker 14: a litany of other kind of basic charges that cops

2461
02:29:22,600 --> 02:29:24,879
Speaker 14: will throw at you. Rico is a bit more serious,

2462
02:29:25,000 --> 02:29:26,840
Speaker 14: Like it's kind of it's kind of like a scary ordeal,

2463
02:29:26,879 --> 02:29:29,119
Speaker 14: you know, same thing with like the domestic terrorism charges

2464
02:29:29,160 --> 02:29:31,800
Speaker 14: that that that have been used the past year.

2465
02:29:32,320 --> 02:29:36,080
Speaker 4: So yes, what is a lot more serious.

2466
02:29:36,720 --> 02:29:38,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, So what exactly is rico?

2467
02:29:40,760 --> 02:29:45,640
Speaker 4: Rico is uh. While it was initially a federal law

2468
02:29:45,720 --> 02:29:49,400
Speaker 4: that was passed in an effort to target specifically organized crime,

2469
02:29:50,280 --> 02:29:54,760
Speaker 4: because federal prosecutors were having a difficult time prosecuting these

2470
02:29:54,840 --> 02:29:59,880
Speaker 4: sort of individual offenses that were being committed by dispersed

2471
02:30:00,040 --> 02:30:04,279
Speaker 4: groups of individuals who are all acting, maybe not in concert,

2472
02:30:04,400 --> 02:30:09,920
Speaker 4: but in the service of a larger criminal enterprise. There's

2473
02:30:09,959 --> 02:30:12,840
Speaker 4: a couple of important things that I want to say

2474
02:30:13,600 --> 02:30:14,279
Speaker 4: just upfront.

2475
02:30:14,560 --> 02:30:14,800
Speaker 3: Sure.

2476
02:30:16,080 --> 02:30:17,840
Speaker 4: The first thing is this is not the first time

2477
02:30:18,280 --> 02:30:23,760
Speaker 4: that RICO has been used against movement people. The second

2478
02:30:23,800 --> 02:30:25,680
Speaker 4: thing I want to say is that all prosecutions are

2479
02:30:25,720 --> 02:30:31,760
Speaker 4: political prosecutions, and RICO is no different. Although federal RICO

2480
02:30:32,280 --> 02:30:37,800
Speaker 4: and ostensibly Georgia State RICO were developed and passed in

2481
02:30:37,879 --> 02:30:41,840
Speaker 4: an effort to target organized crime, that is not how

2482
02:30:41,879 --> 02:30:46,520
Speaker 4: they've been primarily used. And I think it is really

2483
02:30:46,640 --> 02:30:52,320
Speaker 4: significant to note that after a lot of the people

2484
02:30:52,400 --> 02:30:55,440
Speaker 4: of color solidarity movements like the Black Panthers, the Black

2485
02:30:55,520 --> 02:30:59,520
Speaker 4: Liberation Army, AIM, the Brown Berets, the Young Lords, these

2486
02:30:59,600 --> 02:31:04,560
Speaker 4: groups were all really weakened by Cohen Telpro and the

2487
02:31:04,640 --> 02:31:09,480
Speaker 4: community groups that remained were then labeled as gangs and

2488
02:31:09,640 --> 02:31:16,120
Speaker 4: prosecuted under RICO and so I just you know, everything

2489
02:31:16,440 --> 02:31:19,880
Speaker 4: that happens in this conversation, we have to sort of

2490
02:31:20,360 --> 02:31:24,720
Speaker 4: hold in our minds that this particular movement is not

2491
02:31:24,959 --> 02:31:28,120
Speaker 4: the first movement and not the first community who has

2492
02:31:28,280 --> 02:31:34,040
Speaker 4: had rego leveled against it as a form of state repression.

2493
02:31:34,800 --> 02:31:38,600
Speaker 14: Yeah, and specifically Fultland County. It looks like the the

2494
02:31:38,640 --> 02:31:41,960
Speaker 14: batche of indictments that we're using these reco charges. It

2495
02:31:42,080 --> 02:31:45,160
Speaker 14: looks like this was at least according to the to

2496
02:31:45,280 --> 02:31:48,480
Speaker 14: the Atlantic Constitution Journal people this this was the same

2497
02:31:48,560 --> 02:31:52,199
Speaker 14: grand jury that did the ricodictments against former President Donald

2498
02:31:52,240 --> 02:31:55,240
Speaker 14: Trump as well for this, for this, for this batch

2499
02:31:55,280 --> 02:31:58,360
Speaker 14: of charges. And they've used they've used reco charges against

2500
02:31:58,480 --> 02:32:01,480
Speaker 14: like young black wrappers in the past. This is a

2501
02:32:02,400 --> 02:32:05,920
Speaker 14: thing that the Fulton County Office has has done before. Yes,

2502
02:32:06,560 --> 02:32:08,200
Speaker 14: and as like we have like Rico's this is like

2503
02:32:08,200 --> 02:32:11,160
Speaker 14: a criminal racketeering thing against the mob. In terms of

2504
02:32:11,240 --> 02:32:13,840
Speaker 14: like what RICO actually is, Like is it its own

2505
02:32:13,959 --> 02:32:16,480
Speaker 14: separate charge or is it like is it a way

2506
02:32:16,520 --> 02:32:19,280
Speaker 14: to like apply other felony charges, Like you know, can

2507
02:32:19,480 --> 02:32:21,879
Speaker 14: can you just be charged with RICO or is there

2508
02:32:21,920 --> 02:32:24,160
Speaker 14: have to be like other other crimes that you're accused

2509
02:32:24,200 --> 02:32:26,280
Speaker 14: of for them to actually like use this use this

2510
02:32:26,400 --> 02:32:27,600
Speaker 14: charge against these activists.

2511
02:32:28,400 --> 02:32:33,240
Speaker 4: RICO is its own criminal offense, but it relies upon

2512
02:32:33,360 --> 02:32:37,680
Speaker 4: there having been other criminal offenses committed in the service

2513
02:32:38,320 --> 02:32:42,880
Speaker 4: of a larger criminal enterprise or a conspiracy to try

2514
02:32:43,440 --> 02:32:46,640
Speaker 4: to do crimes in the service of a larger criminal enterprise.

2515
02:32:47,160 --> 02:32:49,400
Speaker 4: And one of the reasons that it is.

2516
02:32:49,920 --> 02:32:53,760
Speaker 15: So broad in sweep, I mean, federal RICO is already

2517
02:32:54,040 --> 02:32:57,760
Speaker 15: very broad in SWEEP and Georgia Rica in particular is

2518
02:32:57,840 --> 02:33:00,520
Speaker 15: notorious for being even broader.

2519
02:33:02,480 --> 02:33:05,760
Speaker 4: One of the reasons it is so attractive to prosecutors

2520
02:33:05,920 --> 02:33:10,640
Speaker 4: is precisely because it can capture these large groups of

2521
02:33:10,800 --> 02:33:16,199
Speaker 4: people with very little actual criminal conduct.

2522
02:33:18,320 --> 02:33:20,720
Speaker 14: Okay, so yeah, that's kind of one of the things

2523
02:33:20,760 --> 02:33:23,440
Speaker 14: that we want to talk about is I read the

2524
02:33:23,480 --> 02:33:26,120
Speaker 14: indictment as soon as it came out, as soon as

2525
02:33:26,200 --> 02:33:29,760
Speaker 14: it was made public. It is it is a long document.

2526
02:33:30,320 --> 02:33:34,279
Speaker 14: The first patch of it is just like it's almost

2527
02:33:34,320 --> 02:33:37,160
Speaker 14: like a really bad like Wikipedia article on like like

2528
02:33:37,280 --> 02:33:41,320
Speaker 14: what anarchism is is how it is. How the document starts,

2529
02:33:42,560 --> 02:33:46,080
Speaker 14: and then it gets into all these like alleged alleged

2530
02:33:46,160 --> 02:33:49,520
Speaker 14: like offenses that are not necessarily criminal nature, but they're

2531
02:33:49,560 --> 02:33:53,000
Speaker 14: all in the service of pushing forward this conspiracy to

2532
02:33:53,120 --> 02:33:56,400
Speaker 14: stop the construction of this police training facility. So there's

2533
02:33:56,400 --> 02:33:59,359
Speaker 14: a lot of like kind of like a like random

2534
02:33:59,400 --> 02:34:01,160
Speaker 14: almost asked and I and stuff in there that that

2535
02:34:01,280 --> 02:34:04,440
Speaker 14: they're that they're eluding is is a quote unquote an

2536
02:34:04,480 --> 02:34:08,520
Speaker 14: overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. You know, anything

2537
02:34:08,600 --> 02:34:11,720
Speaker 14: from like buying glue or buying like food supplies, and

2538
02:34:11,760 --> 02:34:15,680
Speaker 14: they're they're including or or things like like like writing

2539
02:34:15,720 --> 02:34:16,359
Speaker 14: your name.

2540
02:34:16,280 --> 02:34:17,200
Speaker 5: As A C, A, B.

2541
02:34:17,440 --> 02:34:19,320
Speaker 14: They're they're they're including that as as as as an

2542
02:34:19,480 --> 02:34:22,200
Speaker 14: as an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy, which

2543
02:34:22,680 --> 02:34:25,280
Speaker 14: is kind of silly, it doesn't make very much sense.

2544
02:34:25,360 --> 02:34:26,880
Speaker 14: But like these also these is this is like a

2545
02:34:27,000 --> 02:34:28,960
Speaker 14: very serious case as well though, because this is like

2546
02:34:29,120 --> 02:34:31,640
Speaker 14: you know, the people people, you know, facing twenty years

2547
02:34:31,680 --> 02:34:35,760
Speaker 14: in prison on top of like the domestic terrorism charges. Well, uh,

2548
02:34:36,040 --> 02:34:38,480
Speaker 14: do you know what else is a overt act in

2549
02:34:38,520 --> 02:34:41,640
Speaker 14: furtherance of a conspiracy? It is the the uh, the

2550
02:34:41,720 --> 02:34:44,840
Speaker 14: advertising that allows us to continue this show. It's all,

2551
02:34:44,959 --> 02:34:47,720
Speaker 14: it's all, it's all all part of the plan. So yes,

2552
02:34:47,800 --> 02:34:52,200
Speaker 14: every every single ad is a co conspirator. So take that, uh,

2553
02:34:53,000 --> 02:34:57,000
Speaker 14: Ronald Reikan coin. Okay, we are we are back. We

2554
02:34:57,040 --> 02:34:58,840
Speaker 14: could talk about a bit more about the actual indictment,

2555
02:34:58,959 --> 02:35:00,960
Speaker 14: uh in a sec I do kind of want to

2556
02:35:01,000 --> 02:35:03,720
Speaker 14: first talk about who are facing these charges, right, because

2557
02:35:03,720 --> 02:35:06,400
Speaker 14: these are these are sixty one people, and it looks

2558
02:35:06,520 --> 02:35:09,840
Speaker 14: like for when I was looking through, one of the

2559
02:35:09,920 --> 02:35:12,480
Speaker 14: first things that you noticed is like, oh, they're mostly

2560
02:35:12,600 --> 02:35:16,600
Speaker 14: charging people who have already been charged before. There's not

2561
02:35:16,760 --> 02:35:19,320
Speaker 14: so many new people added to this case. It's mostly

2562
02:35:19,560 --> 02:35:22,440
Speaker 14: people who've already been arrested and charged. Can you kind

2563
02:35:22,480 --> 02:35:24,720
Speaker 14: of like talk about the scope of these sixty one

2564
02:35:24,760 --> 02:35:26,880
Speaker 14: people who are included in this indictment.

2565
02:35:27,920 --> 02:35:32,199
Speaker 4: Yes, so, as I was saying, the scope of Georgia

2566
02:35:32,280 --> 02:35:36,520
Speaker 4: Rico is extremely broad, and some of the criminal acts

2567
02:35:36,600 --> 02:35:40,960
Speaker 4: that can serve as a predicate for charging Rico are

2568
02:35:41,000 --> 02:35:46,320
Speaker 4: these extremely unremarkable acts that we would typically think of

2569
02:35:47,000 --> 02:35:52,240
Speaker 4: as being very normal protest related behavior, and some of

2570
02:35:52,360 --> 02:35:55,480
Speaker 4: them are things like domestic terrorism. And so I don't

2571
02:35:55,520 --> 02:36:00,440
Speaker 4: think it is an accident that all of those people

2572
02:36:00,560 --> 02:36:05,240
Speaker 4: were charged with domestic terrorism in the beginning months of

2573
02:36:05,360 --> 02:36:11,920
Speaker 4: this of this sort of push to overcharge the stock

2574
02:36:11,959 --> 02:36:14,720
Speaker 4: Cup City activists, And in fact, I think one of

2575
02:36:14,760 --> 02:36:17,240
Speaker 4: the things that tipped us off at that point that

2576
02:36:17,440 --> 02:36:22,240
Speaker 4: Rico was in the pipeline was that people were being

2577
02:36:22,360 --> 02:36:25,120
Speaker 4: charged with domestic terrorism, which is one of the predicate

2578
02:36:25,160 --> 02:36:29,000
Speaker 4: offenses for Rico, and so many of the people who

2579
02:36:29,240 --> 02:36:31,800
Speaker 4: are on this indictment are the people who are already

2580
02:36:31,879 --> 02:36:36,560
Speaker 4: charged with domestic terrorism. They were overcharged with domestic terrorism.

2581
02:36:36,640 --> 02:36:41,640
Speaker 4: In my opinion, they were overcharged. I think the opinion

2582
02:36:41,680 --> 02:36:47,600
Speaker 4: of most attorneys. They were overcharged. They were charged in

2583
02:36:47,720 --> 02:36:51,760
Speaker 4: that manner, not because the allegations against them are serious.

2584
02:36:51,840 --> 02:36:54,480
Speaker 4: In fact, if you look at the allegations in those

2585
02:36:54,520 --> 02:36:58,960
Speaker 4: domestic terrorism indictments or they're not even indictments yet, most

2586
02:36:59,000 --> 02:37:05,440
Speaker 4: of them in those domestic terrorism charges, in the documents

2587
02:37:05,560 --> 02:37:11,160
Speaker 4: that are associated with those arrests, the allegations are, you know,

2588
02:37:11,280 --> 02:37:15,000
Speaker 4: as I said, these absolutely unremarkable, garden variety sort of

2589
02:37:15,080 --> 02:37:20,200
Speaker 4: criminal trespass allegations, by and large, the allegations against people,

2590
02:37:20,240 --> 02:37:23,360
Speaker 4: and they include things that are absolutely lawful, like having

2591
02:37:23,560 --> 02:37:27,960
Speaker 4: mud on your like having on your knees. Yes, yeah,

2592
02:37:28,080 --> 02:37:30,400
Speaker 4: so a lot of the allegations. One of the things

2593
02:37:30,440 --> 02:37:34,720
Speaker 4: that's remarkable about Rico, and frankly about the domestic terrorism stuff,

2594
02:37:35,160 --> 02:37:40,440
Speaker 4: is that both of those statutes allow for the sort

2595
02:37:40,480 --> 02:37:46,199
Speaker 4: of bootstrapping of one offense into a much more serious

2596
02:37:46,280 --> 02:37:51,480
Speaker 4: offense if certain conditions are met with respect to the

2597
02:37:51,520 --> 02:37:59,359
Speaker 4: domestic terrorism Statute. A very large number of garden variety

2598
02:37:59,640 --> 02:38:04,840
Speaker 4: offens is like criminal trespassing, can be transformed into domestic

2599
02:38:05,000 --> 02:38:09,040
Speaker 4: terrorism if they are perceived to be essentially politically motivated.

2600
02:38:10,120 --> 02:38:12,560
Speaker 4: In the case of So, what we have here is

2601
02:38:13,000 --> 02:38:15,120
Speaker 4: a situation where a bunch of people got charged with

2602
02:38:15,200 --> 02:38:20,000
Speaker 4: domestic terrorism, not because they were doing something really dramatic

2603
02:38:20,160 --> 02:38:22,760
Speaker 4: or violent, but because whatever it was they were doing

2604
02:38:22,959 --> 02:38:27,480
Speaker 4: was perceived as being an effort to influence public policy.

2605
02:38:27,920 --> 02:38:32,320
Speaker 4: So we transformed a very minor offense into a very

2606
02:38:32,400 --> 02:38:37,160
Speaker 4: serious offense. That serious offense then became the predicate offense

2607
02:38:37,600 --> 02:38:40,960
Speaker 4: for Rico, which is an even more serious offense.

2608
02:38:41,560 --> 02:38:44,040
Speaker 14: Yeah, And from my understanding at least in terms of

2609
02:38:44,879 --> 02:38:46,920
Speaker 14: a lot of the people in the sixty one indictments

2610
02:38:46,959 --> 02:38:51,640
Speaker 14: are the Sexton One people in the indictment is from

2611
02:38:51,680 --> 02:38:54,360
Speaker 14: the arrests that happened at the music festival last Menstrue,

2612
02:38:54,920 --> 02:38:58,560
Speaker 14: and a lot of these people were only charged with

2613
02:38:58,800 --> 02:39:02,320
Speaker 14: domestic terrorism, which is interesting because usually domestic terrorism in

2614
02:39:02,320 --> 02:39:05,920
Speaker 14: Georgia is like an enhancement charge, but lots of the

2615
02:39:06,000 --> 02:39:08,160
Speaker 14: people weren't actually charged with any of the other other

2616
02:39:08,320 --> 02:39:11,520
Speaker 14: charges yet the prosecutors just argued, because we're charging with

2617
02:39:11,520 --> 02:39:14,120
Speaker 14: the domestic terrorism, it's like inferred that they must have

2618
02:39:14,200 --> 02:39:17,000
Speaker 14: done some other crimes that we haven't yet specified. But

2619
02:39:17,640 --> 02:39:20,279
Speaker 14: in the way that works for the for the Rico indictments,

2620
02:39:20,360 --> 02:39:21,960
Speaker 14: because I think you need to have already had like

2621
02:39:22,280 --> 02:39:24,920
Speaker 14: like I think there's like a prerequisitive like two other

2622
02:39:25,040 --> 02:39:29,040
Speaker 14: like felonious charges. What they did in the in these

2623
02:39:29,080 --> 02:39:31,840
Speaker 14: reco charges is go back to the music festival and

2624
02:39:32,000 --> 02:39:35,280
Speaker 14: break down every single thing that happened there that they're

2625
02:39:35,320 --> 02:39:38,920
Speaker 14: alleging these people did as separate instances like like planning

2626
02:39:39,000 --> 02:39:41,440
Speaker 14: to go to the place, you know, marching to the place,

2627
02:39:41,600 --> 02:39:43,480
Speaker 14: being at the place, Like they broke it down to

2628
02:39:43,720 --> 02:39:46,040
Speaker 14: have all these separate things so that they could like

2629
02:39:46,320 --> 02:39:49,920
Speaker 14: shoehorn it into this Rico indictment. So there's a lot

2630
02:39:49,920 --> 02:39:52,560
Speaker 14: of like a you know, revisionist history going on here,

2631
02:39:53,000 --> 02:39:55,800
Speaker 14: very kind of different arguments than what the actual like

2632
02:39:55,840 --> 02:40:00,400
Speaker 14: domestic terrorism of bond hearings had in like a previous months.

2633
02:40:01,920 --> 02:40:05,600
Speaker 5: But yeah, there is at least at least one.

2634
02:40:05,480 --> 02:40:08,400
Speaker 14: Person in the indictments who is newly I think I

2635
02:40:08,520 --> 02:40:11,720
Speaker 14: I think possibly a few others, but I haven't quite checked,

2636
02:40:11,760 --> 02:40:13,880
Speaker 14: but there at least one person, which is a very

2637
02:40:13,920 --> 02:40:16,800
Speaker 14: interesting case. It's this, it's this guy who worked at

2638
02:40:17,000 --> 02:40:20,560
Speaker 14: the uh the Flock camera company who I saw that

2639
02:40:20,920 --> 02:40:25,800
Speaker 14: who they are alleging was was passing off information about

2640
02:40:25,879 --> 02:40:30,920
Speaker 14: where cameras were were we're located. And this is an

2641
02:40:31,200 --> 02:40:33,640
Speaker 14: extremely interesting case because he is he is not included

2642
02:40:33,680 --> 02:40:37,120
Speaker 14: in any other previous charges, but that is at least

2643
02:40:37,200 --> 02:40:39,600
Speaker 14: one of the people who who are kind of new

2644
02:40:39,640 --> 02:40:42,320
Speaker 14: additions to this indictment. One thing I didn't want to

2645
02:40:42,360 --> 02:40:44,800
Speaker 14: mention because you've you've said, you've you've kind of mentioned

2646
02:40:44,800 --> 02:40:47,080
Speaker 14: a few times that these are these are state level

2647
02:40:47,120 --> 02:40:50,279
Speaker 14: reco charges. Those are kind of different than federal reco charges.

2648
02:40:51,320 --> 02:40:52,520
Speaker 14: Do you want to kind of get into like the

2649
02:40:52,600 --> 02:40:55,440
Speaker 14: difference between state and federal charges and specifically how kind

2650
02:40:55,480 --> 02:40:59,040
Speaker 14: of the ones in Georgia work versus the the the

2651
02:40:59,120 --> 02:41:02,959
Speaker 14: federal rego that you know, kind of inspired different states

2652
02:41:03,000 --> 02:41:05,640
Speaker 14: to kind of add their own style of rico.

2653
02:41:06,520 --> 02:41:11,920
Speaker 4: The big difference between the federal RICO statute, which is

2654
02:41:12,040 --> 02:41:16,600
Speaker 4: already extremely vague. I think Scalia said something like Scalia,

2655
02:41:16,920 --> 02:41:24,920
Speaker 4: who is notoriously not far left activist. Right, I'm not

2656
02:41:25,040 --> 02:41:31,240
Speaker 4: a supporter of leftists in any meaningful way. I think

2657
02:41:31,320 --> 02:41:35,720
Speaker 4: described the federal Rico Statute I think is intolerably vague.

2658
02:41:36,280 --> 02:41:40,720
Speaker 4: So the Federal Rico Statute is already very broad in

2659
02:41:40,840 --> 02:41:44,120
Speaker 4: its scope. It already does this thing that we were

2660
02:41:44,160 --> 02:41:49,560
Speaker 4: discussing of pulling in many, many people by associating them with,

2661
02:41:50,080 --> 02:41:55,000
Speaker 4: you know, this criminal enterprise. The Georgia Ricos Statute is

2662
02:41:55,240 --> 02:41:59,119
Speaker 4: even more broad. The Georgia Ricos Statute uses a lot

2663
02:41:59,160 --> 02:42:04,600
Speaker 4: of the same terms, right, a pattern of racketeering activity. Right,

2664
02:42:05,560 --> 02:42:08,320
Speaker 4: It uses a lot of the same concepts, but it

2665
02:42:08,400 --> 02:42:12,200
Speaker 4: defines those concepts in ways that are even broader, even

2666
02:42:12,320 --> 02:42:15,360
Speaker 4: easier to apply. So I think the thing that is

2667
02:42:15,440 --> 02:42:20,440
Speaker 4: significant about Rico is that, similar to like what we

2668
02:42:20,520 --> 02:42:27,959
Speaker 4: would see with conspiracy, where you know, not every person

2669
02:42:28,120 --> 02:42:33,560
Speaker 4: involved in a conspiracy needs to have been participating in

2670
02:42:33,800 --> 02:42:38,120
Speaker 4: every single criminal instance of criminal conduct in order to

2671
02:42:38,720 --> 02:42:39,960
Speaker 4: be implicated.

2672
02:42:40,520 --> 02:42:42,760
Speaker 14: They don't even need to like know the other co

2673
02:42:42,920 --> 02:42:44,160
Speaker 14: conspirators necessarily.

2674
02:42:44,480 --> 02:42:48,560
Speaker 4: So that's the case in this indictment. Yes, yes, And

2675
02:42:48,720 --> 02:42:52,600
Speaker 4: that is sometimes the case with maybe other reco indictments.

2676
02:42:52,640 --> 02:42:55,920
Speaker 4: We certainly have seen some stuff like gang prosecutions where

2677
02:42:56,600 --> 02:43:02,200
Speaker 4: the people involved don't know each other. Typically, I wouldn't

2678
02:43:02,320 --> 02:43:06,560
Speaker 4: actually expect to see something that broad. When a prosecutor

2679
02:43:06,600 --> 02:43:10,760
Speaker 4: wants to indict someone for engaging in criminal conduct, they

2680
02:43:10,840 --> 02:43:17,240
Speaker 4: need to have individualized probable cause that that individual did

2681
02:43:17,520 --> 02:43:22,400
Speaker 4: the crime one of the things, and you can't attribute

2682
02:43:22,720 --> 02:43:29,200
Speaker 4: one person's behavior to another person. Rico offers a way

2683
02:43:29,280 --> 02:43:34,240
Speaker 4: around that. To use Rico in the way that the

2684
02:43:34,440 --> 02:43:40,640
Speaker 4: prosecutors in Georgia are doing, among other things, enables them

2685
02:43:40,840 --> 02:43:44,320
Speaker 4: to engage in a sort of collective punishment of people

2686
02:43:44,440 --> 02:43:52,240
Speaker 4: who they perceive as holding certain ideologies. And those people

2687
02:43:52,360 --> 02:43:56,680
Speaker 4: can be engaged in lawful behavior and even in constitutionally

2688
02:43:56,720 --> 02:44:01,480
Speaker 4: protected behavior, but if they can and characterize any of

2689
02:44:01,560 --> 02:44:04,959
Speaker 4: that behavior as having been an overt act in furtherance

2690
02:44:05,040 --> 02:44:09,200
Speaker 4: of the conspiracy, the fact that this person bought glue

2691
02:44:11,720 --> 02:44:17,760
Speaker 4: and was reimbursed for the glue, yeah, can function to

2692
02:44:17,879 --> 02:44:21,959
Speaker 4: allow the prosecutor to attribute all of this other criminal

2693
02:44:22,120 --> 02:44:24,560
Speaker 4: conduct to the person who bought glue.

2694
02:44:25,200 --> 02:44:29,800
Speaker 14: Basically, there, people can you know, be hit with charges

2695
02:44:30,320 --> 02:44:33,880
Speaker 14: that are being you know, alleged against actions of other people,

2696
02:44:34,040 --> 02:44:35,879
Speaker 14: but they're all getting like roped up together and they're

2697
02:44:35,920 --> 02:44:38,959
Speaker 14: all facing these charges together, that's right.

2698
02:44:39,120 --> 02:44:41,960
Speaker 4: So you can like, the allegation that there is a

2699
02:44:42,120 --> 02:44:51,000
Speaker 4: criminal enterprise allows the prosecutors to associate various people and

2700
02:44:51,200 --> 02:44:59,080
Speaker 4: various acts, even lawful acts, even constitutionally protected acts, with

2701
02:44:59,680 --> 02:45:04,920
Speaker 4: a tempting to further that criminal enterprise. And so the

2702
02:45:05,080 --> 02:45:10,640
Speaker 4: allegation that this criminal enterprise exists is the fundamental core

2703
02:45:11,480 --> 02:45:18,120
Speaker 4: of this indictment. Now you read the indictment and it's

2704
02:45:18,879 --> 02:45:23,760
Speaker 4: you know, it's laughable. They're making these claims that, you know,

2705
02:45:23,840 --> 02:45:28,280
Speaker 4: if it weren't so serious, if this weren't so serious,

2706
02:45:28,360 --> 02:45:30,920
Speaker 4: we'd all be rolling on the floor. The idea that

2707
02:45:31,120 --> 02:45:37,960
Speaker 4: mutual aid is sinister. It really to me when I

2708
02:45:38,040 --> 02:45:41,040
Speaker 4: read this indictment, I thought, wow, this is just fascinating,

2709
02:45:41,120 --> 02:45:44,440
Speaker 4: because what's happening here is that Georgia is saying the

2710
02:45:44,560 --> 02:45:48,960
Speaker 4: quiet part out loud. We all know state repression is real.

2711
02:45:49,080 --> 02:45:54,320
Speaker 4: We all know that the American legal system functions to

2712
02:45:55,360 --> 02:46:00,120
Speaker 4: repressed assent, to impose prior restraints on first amend and

2713
02:46:00,280 --> 02:46:06,000
Speaker 4: protected behavior, to chill speech, to frighten people into submission. Right,

2714
02:46:06,120 --> 02:46:10,200
Speaker 4: we understand that it is this coercive system, but there

2715
02:46:10,360 --> 02:46:14,160
Speaker 4: is at least a sort of set of rules that

2716
02:46:14,560 --> 02:46:21,600
Speaker 4: purport to prioritize fairness, that purport to value concepts of

2717
02:46:21,720 --> 02:46:25,120
Speaker 4: due process, and the Rico Statute, and in particular, the

2718
02:46:25,160 --> 02:46:31,440
Speaker 4: Reco Statute as it is being used here, really functions

2719
02:46:31,520 --> 02:46:36,040
Speaker 4: so explicitly to circumvent those rules that we can that

2720
02:46:36,120 --> 02:46:39,080
Speaker 4: they're just they're not even trying anymore. They're not even

2721
02:46:39,200 --> 02:46:44,039
Speaker 4: trying to pretend that they care about individual probable cause,

2722
02:46:44,640 --> 02:46:47,720
Speaker 4: about the First Amendment, and I would say, most frighteningly

2723
02:46:47,760 --> 02:46:50,880
Speaker 4: about the sixth Amendment, which is the right to counsel,

2724
02:46:51,640 --> 02:46:56,920
Speaker 4: because they have gone way beyond the pale in alleging

2725
02:46:57,879 --> 02:47:03,560
Speaker 4: that things like accessing legal help, or accessing bail, or

2726
02:47:03,760 --> 02:47:10,480
Speaker 4: having legal observers or you know, providing anti repression trainings

2727
02:47:11,360 --> 02:47:16,519
Speaker 4: are in some manner sinister acts in furtherance of the conspiracy.

2728
02:47:16,640 --> 02:47:19,800
Speaker 4: And I am really I don't know what will happen here.

2729
02:47:20,840 --> 02:47:25,520
Speaker 4: I really can't begin to guess, because I feel like

2730
02:47:25,879 --> 02:47:29,240
Speaker 4: it is no longer possible for me to be surprised

2731
02:47:29,959 --> 02:47:33,640
Speaker 4: by the nonsense that is coming out of this jurisdiction.

2732
02:47:36,000 --> 02:47:39,400
Speaker 4: I don't know what will happen, but I am very,

2733
02:47:40,040 --> 02:47:45,880
Speaker 4: very curious to see how the bench, how the judges

2734
02:47:46,120 --> 02:47:55,720
Speaker 4: in Georgia respond to these allegations that involve making it

2735
02:47:56,720 --> 02:48:03,760
Speaker 4: part of a criminal conspiracy to prove legal assistance. You know,

2736
02:48:03,920 --> 02:48:06,720
Speaker 4: this is to me like one of the most concerning

2737
02:48:06,879 --> 02:48:11,840
Speaker 4: aspects of this of this indictment, because as absurd as

2738
02:48:11,920 --> 02:48:14,800
Speaker 4: it is, this could have very serious consequences.

2739
02:48:15,720 --> 02:48:17,600
Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean, that's something people have been talking about

2740
02:48:17,720 --> 02:48:21,120
Speaker 14: with Atlanta for a while now. Is that because of

2741
02:48:21,200 --> 02:48:23,800
Speaker 14: how many you know, criminal cases there is around the

2742
02:48:24,200 --> 02:48:27,760
Speaker 14: top top city of like movement, whatever kind of the

2743
02:48:27,840 --> 02:48:29,920
Speaker 14: result of those cases is going to be is going

2744
02:48:30,000 --> 02:48:34,039
Speaker 14: to set a very influential precedent for future for future

2745
02:48:34,160 --> 02:48:37,760
Speaker 14: kind of eco defense campaigns, future like any anything relating

2746
02:48:37,800 --> 02:48:42,000
Speaker 14: to like like civil rights, you know, uh, police abolition,

2747
02:48:42,240 --> 02:48:44,600
Speaker 14: or even even even things it's like benign is like

2748
02:48:44,640 --> 02:48:48,280
Speaker 14: police reform, like any any kind of like any kind

2749
02:48:48,320 --> 02:48:51,360
Speaker 14: of like grassroots activist, whatever kind of movement that's going

2750
02:48:51,440 --> 02:48:53,279
Speaker 14: to happen in the future is going to be affected

2751
02:48:53,320 --> 02:48:57,240
Speaker 14: by how these cases go. Because not only is you know,

2752
02:48:57,400 --> 02:49:00,440
Speaker 14: as as you mentioned, the you know, Act to Bail

2753
02:49:00,520 --> 02:49:03,000
Speaker 14: Fund being being in like access to to to lawyers

2754
02:49:03,040 --> 02:49:05,760
Speaker 14: and so and legal support is being used in these

2755
02:49:06,040 --> 02:49:09,600
Speaker 14: reco charges, they were also alleging that by having a

2756
02:49:09,720 --> 02:49:12,240
Speaker 14: you know, a bail fund number on your arm, that

2757
02:49:12,480 --> 02:49:14,680
Speaker 14: was like, you know, that was evidence that that that's

2758
02:49:14,680 --> 02:49:17,840
Speaker 14: that this person intended to do crimes. And then you know,

2759
02:49:17,920 --> 02:49:20,720
Speaker 14: as as evident in support of these domestic terrorism charges,

2760
02:49:21,040 --> 02:49:24,040
Speaker 14: which is you know, an extremely dangerously legal claim to

2761
02:49:24,480 --> 02:49:27,120
Speaker 14: to to be to be talking about. And we've been

2762
02:49:27,160 --> 02:49:29,240
Speaker 14: dealing with that in Atlanta for months now, and it's

2763
02:49:29,240 --> 02:49:31,840
Speaker 14: you know, it's created this really chilling effect on the

2764
02:49:31,959 --> 02:49:34,560
Speaker 14: ground that you know, you can you can be you know,

2765
02:49:35,000 --> 02:49:37,200
Speaker 14: doing something as simple as marching in the street and

2766
02:49:37,400 --> 02:49:40,240
Speaker 14: now have not only to like terrorism charges, having reco

2767
02:49:40,360 --> 02:49:44,240
Speaker 14: charges for stuff that is very clearly like First Amendment activity.

2768
02:49:45,280 --> 02:49:50,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it is really fascinating to me that

2769
02:49:51,959 --> 02:49:59,440
Speaker 4: the law enforcement apparatus in Georgia is basically engaging and

2770
02:49:59,680 --> 02:50:05,680
Speaker 4: really concerted state repression against this movement, which is highly

2771
02:50:05,840 --> 02:50:11,039
Speaker 4: visible and highly legible as state repression. And then when

2772
02:50:11,120 --> 02:50:15,800
Speaker 4: people respond appropriately by anticipating that they may be subject

2773
02:50:16,000 --> 02:50:21,480
Speaker 4: to state repression by writing the jail support number on

2774
02:50:21,560 --> 02:50:25,080
Speaker 4: their arm, not because they believe that they intend to

2775
02:50:25,200 --> 02:50:27,680
Speaker 4: go out and do crimes, but because they know that

2776
02:50:28,959 --> 02:50:33,600
Speaker 4: unremarkable acts of First Amendment protected conduct may result in

2777
02:50:33,920 --> 02:50:41,400
Speaker 4: intense state repression. The law enforcement apparatus then responds by

2778
02:50:41,720 --> 02:50:46,520
Speaker 4: rationalizing their repression further. I mean, it's just we can

2779
02:50:46,800 --> 02:50:50,600
Speaker 4: see the sort of post hoc fallacy at work in

2780
02:50:50,760 --> 02:50:57,160
Speaker 4: real time. It's not clear to me how much of

2781
02:50:57,240 --> 02:51:01,880
Speaker 4: the hypocrisy is self aware. Sure, you know who else

2782
02:51:01,920 --> 02:51:02,920
Speaker 4: doesn't talk to cops?

2783
02:51:04,680 --> 02:51:07,640
Speaker 5: Product? I cannot guarantee that.

2784
02:51:07,760 --> 02:51:10,920
Speaker 14: I'm not sure these companies have the same.

2785
02:51:10,840 --> 02:51:12,560
Speaker 5: Standards that you and I have.

2786
02:51:12,879 --> 02:51:14,519
Speaker 4: They don't have shared values.

2787
02:51:14,640 --> 02:51:19,560
Speaker 5: In terms of our willingness to to to talk with

2788
02:51:19,640 --> 02:51:20,240
Speaker 5: the police.

2789
02:51:21,440 --> 02:51:24,560
Speaker 4: But they probably has good defense lawyers.

2790
02:51:25,280 --> 02:51:27,680
Speaker 14: Oh yes, all of all of these products and services

2791
02:51:27,959 --> 02:51:30,640
Speaker 14: that support this podcast definitely do have good defense lawyers.

2792
02:51:30,640 --> 02:51:31,080
Speaker 12: That is true.

2793
02:51:31,200 --> 02:51:33,879
Speaker 14: So listen, listen to their important messages.

2794
02:51:35,200 --> 02:51:38,200
Speaker 4: There is actually a part of this indictment that I

2795
02:51:38,240 --> 02:51:42,400
Speaker 4: think deserves some very serious attention.

2796
02:51:42,879 --> 02:51:44,680
Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely So.

2797
02:51:46,160 --> 02:51:50,280
Speaker 4: Typically when we're thinking about RICO, we're thinking about like

2798
02:51:50,400 --> 02:51:55,000
Speaker 4: white collar crime, and we're thinking about the use of

2799
02:51:55,560 --> 02:51:59,120
Speaker 4: GO to target groups that are doing unlawful things in

2800
02:51:59,440 --> 02:52:08,040
Speaker 4: order to profit. This indictment seems to allege that stop

2801
02:52:08,160 --> 02:52:12,640
Speaker 4: Coop City activists are raising money to do crime, which

2802
02:52:12,680 --> 02:52:17,520
Speaker 4: is sort of the opposite right, and as as we said,

2803
02:52:17,920 --> 02:52:22,920
Speaker 4: the crime that they're alleging, by and large is really petty.

2804
02:52:24,879 --> 02:52:29,840
Speaker 4: And there does seem to be one major act of

2805
02:52:29,920 --> 02:52:35,280
Speaker 4: violence that is alleged in this indictment, and I think

2806
02:52:35,320 --> 02:52:38,560
Speaker 4: we need to talk about it for a second because

2807
02:52:38,640 --> 02:52:43,400
Speaker 4: that one alleged act of violence involves the claim that

2808
02:52:43,640 --> 02:52:49,480
Speaker 4: Manuel torteguita Tehran who was murdered by police, was firing

2809
02:52:49,640 --> 02:52:54,880
Speaker 4: upon officers, and that is an incredibly central claim in

2810
02:52:55,000 --> 02:52:58,200
Speaker 4: this indictment. That really is I think the hook on

2811
02:52:58,320 --> 02:53:06,920
Speaker 4: which they're hanging a lot of the seriousness of the allegations,

2812
02:53:07,600 --> 02:53:11,080
Speaker 4: and it is an incredibly disingenuous claim and it's an

2813
02:53:11,160 --> 02:53:17,160
Speaker 4: incredibly dangerous claim. The evidence that they're using to support

2814
02:53:17,240 --> 02:53:19,840
Speaker 4: that claim is the statement of a third party who

2815
02:53:20,000 --> 02:53:25,720
Speaker 4: was not present. It's a regrettable statement that they've dug

2816
02:53:25,840 --> 02:53:31,320
Speaker 4: up from some group balance you know, you know, thousands

2817
02:53:31,360 --> 02:53:35,360
Speaker 4: of miles away from the Atlanta Forest and there's no

2818
02:53:35,560 --> 02:53:40,720
Speaker 4: reason to credit that statement, but they are using it

2819
02:53:41,520 --> 02:53:45,920
Speaker 4: to support this claim. That is, as I said, it's

2820
02:53:46,560 --> 02:53:51,959
Speaker 4: it's critical to their argument, and it is extremely disingenuous

2821
02:53:52,080 --> 02:53:59,160
Speaker 4: and it's extremely dangerous for for the office of a

2822
02:53:59,280 --> 02:54:02,680
Speaker 4: prosecutor which you know, for what it's worth, is supposed

2823
02:54:02,680 --> 02:54:07,640
Speaker 4: to pursue justice and not convictions. It is just intolerable

2824
02:54:07,800 --> 02:54:12,760
Speaker 4: to me that that somebody thought this was an acceptable

2825
02:54:12,879 --> 02:54:15,359
Speaker 4: thing to put into a legal document.

2826
02:54:16,040 --> 02:54:17,840
Speaker 5: And like you you were talking about how you know,

2827
02:54:17,920 --> 02:54:21,920
Speaker 5: they're using statements from the scenes dot no Block subsite,

2828
02:54:21,920 --> 02:54:24,400
Speaker 5: which anyone can submit to. There's no barrier of evidence

2829
02:54:24,520 --> 02:54:28,480
Speaker 5: for submitting to. And one interesting aspect that I didn't

2830
02:54:28,480 --> 02:54:30,560
Speaker 5: want to mention is that for many of the kind

2831
02:54:30,600 --> 02:54:32,840
Speaker 5: of the little like you know, accounts that they that

2832
02:54:32,920 --> 02:54:36,640
Speaker 5: they have in their indictment, it's it's just referencing people,

2833
02:54:36,800 --> 02:54:40,000
Speaker 5: you know, claiming that they did crimes on on on

2834
02:54:40,120 --> 02:54:43,680
Speaker 5: this website. But they're they're attributing the the either like

2835
02:54:43,840 --> 02:54:46,480
Speaker 5: co authorship of these claims to the people at the

2836
02:54:46,480 --> 02:54:50,560
Speaker 5: Solidary count, which they've laid out no evidence in supporting that.

2837
02:54:50,640 --> 02:54:53,120
Speaker 5: That's it's it's one of the more bizarre aspects of

2838
02:54:53,400 --> 02:54:57,119
Speaker 5: this indictment because they make every they claim that every

2839
02:54:57,200 --> 02:55:00,680
Speaker 5: single post on scenes is somehow the solid Different people

2840
02:55:00,720 --> 02:55:05,680
Speaker 5: are in part responsible for it, which is absolutely absurd

2841
02:55:05,760 --> 02:55:09,240
Speaker 5: that there's there's They've they've produced nothing, no piece of

2842
02:55:09,280 --> 02:55:11,560
Speaker 5: evidence in support of this claim. But that is one

2843
02:55:11,560 --> 02:55:13,920
Speaker 5: of the core parts of their indictment because much much

2844
02:55:13,959 --> 02:55:15,920
Speaker 5: of what they're filling this indictment with, you know, they're

2845
02:55:15,920 --> 02:55:18,160
Speaker 5: talking about how there's people do you know, doing crimes

2846
02:55:18,200 --> 02:55:22,840
Speaker 5: in San Francisco, in in Portland, in like Minneapolis, like

2847
02:55:22,879 --> 02:55:26,120
Speaker 5: all across like in New York, all across the country. Right,

2848
02:55:26,160 --> 02:55:29,040
Speaker 5: this is part of like the criminal conspiracy angle, which

2849
02:55:29,040 --> 02:55:31,160
Speaker 5: were very clearly from my perspective, this is, you know,

2850
02:55:31,760 --> 02:55:34,160
Speaker 5: people all across the country who care about a cause,

2851
02:55:34,200 --> 02:55:36,080
Speaker 5: and so they're doing something in their own city. It's

2852
02:55:36,080 --> 02:55:37,840
Speaker 5: there's there's no there's no conspiracy to it. It's it's

2853
02:55:37,840 --> 02:55:41,760
Speaker 5: people taking their own individual action. But they're they're trying,

2854
02:55:41,800 --> 02:55:44,440
Speaker 5: they're trying to tie this into the solidarity fund in

2855
02:55:44,520 --> 02:55:47,520
Speaker 5: a very bizarre way. You know, I'll be.

2856
02:55:47,600 --> 02:55:49,400
Speaker 14: Curious to see if they ever try to produce evidence

2857
02:55:49,680 --> 02:55:52,080
Speaker 14: to support that claim in court. But it's it's it's

2858
02:55:52,120 --> 02:55:53,920
Speaker 14: so laughable on the face. So you're like, how can

2859
02:55:54,240 --> 02:55:56,600
Speaker 14: how can three people with with a bail fund be

2860
02:55:57,240 --> 02:56:01,040
Speaker 14: be connected to these direct actions happening all across the country.

2861
02:56:01,800 --> 02:56:06,680
Speaker 4: Well, that's not literally what they're claiming, though, right, And

2862
02:56:07,120 --> 02:56:10,800
Speaker 4: I think this is this is where we see this

2863
02:56:10,959 --> 02:56:15,959
Speaker 4: difference of perspective mattering a lot. The kind of distributed

2864
02:56:17,280 --> 02:56:25,560
Speaker 4: network of autonomous solidarity that exists in this instance is

2865
02:56:25,640 --> 02:56:31,880
Speaker 4: something that is totally foreign two people who are very

2866
02:56:32,000 --> 02:56:35,200
Speaker 4: used to having hierarchy in their lives. And you know,

2867
02:56:35,240 --> 02:56:38,800
Speaker 4: I think i've I've talked about this before, I think

2868
02:56:38,879 --> 02:56:43,560
Speaker 4: on this show about the fact that when the far

2869
02:56:43,760 --> 02:56:48,240
Speaker 4: right organizes, they organize in ways that are familiar to

2870
02:56:48,959 --> 02:56:52,920
Speaker 4: police and prosecutors. Right. They organize in these very martial,

2871
02:56:53,280 --> 02:56:57,039
Speaker 4: hierarchical ways where there's a clear chain of command. Now,

2872
02:56:58,000 --> 02:57:00,959
Speaker 4: often their chain of command is very still and involves

2873
02:57:01,240 --> 02:57:06,200
Speaker 4: people having titles like dragons and wizards. But it's legible, right,

2874
02:57:06,360 --> 02:57:10,959
Speaker 4: It's legible to law enforcement. They understand there's someone in charge,

2875
02:57:10,959 --> 02:57:13,039
Speaker 4: and there's someone who answers to the person in charge.

2876
02:57:14,280 --> 02:57:19,840
Speaker 4: Having a situation where we have a website that is unmoderated,

2877
02:57:21,120 --> 02:57:27,160
Speaker 4: hosted by or supported by some group and totally open

2878
02:57:28,160 --> 02:57:32,400
Speaker 4: is something that I think, you know, police and prosecutors

2879
02:57:32,480 --> 02:57:36,360
Speaker 4: might have a little bit of difficulty understanding, right, because

2880
02:57:36,400 --> 02:57:40,120
Speaker 4: it's inconceivable to them that there is not a hierarchy,

2881
02:57:40,200 --> 02:57:43,800
Speaker 4: that there's not a chain of command. It's like, you know,

2882
02:57:43,879 --> 02:57:47,760
Speaker 4: I've actually had to drop footnotes in federal court filings

2883
02:57:48,240 --> 02:57:52,000
Speaker 4: to explain to judges and to explain to opposing counsel

2884
02:57:52,720 --> 02:57:56,600
Speaker 4: that Antifa is like a set of practices and not

2885
02:57:56,879 --> 02:58:02,040
Speaker 4: a membership organization. Yes, right, and that trying to trying

2886
02:58:02,160 --> 02:58:07,200
Speaker 4: to address Antifa as though it were an organization is

2887
02:58:07,640 --> 02:58:15,039
Speaker 4: similar to trying to address the world of Batman fans, right,

2888
02:58:15,200 --> 02:58:18,080
Speaker 4: Like these are all people who might self identify in

2889
02:58:18,240 --> 02:58:21,000
Speaker 4: some way, but you couldn't really identify them as a group,

2890
02:58:21,640 --> 02:58:24,560
Speaker 4: and they don't know each other and they're not so

2891
02:58:24,800 --> 02:58:28,680
Speaker 4: identifying in any way for each other.

2892
02:58:29,160 --> 02:58:29,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2893
02:58:29,480 --> 02:58:32,400
Speaker 14: Well, and as that relates to the no Blogs website,

2894
02:58:32,440 --> 02:58:34,840
Speaker 14: like it's they have they have not laid out any

2895
02:58:34,840 --> 02:58:38,080
Speaker 14: evidence of who is running this website at like who

2896
02:58:38,240 --> 02:58:41,600
Speaker 14: who is who's operating it, who's hosting the servers, none

2897
02:58:41,600 --> 02:58:44,279
Speaker 14: of that. None of that information is included in the indictment.

2898
02:58:44,560 --> 02:58:45,920
Speaker 14: So the fact that they're trying to tie this to

2899
02:58:45,959 --> 02:58:49,039
Speaker 14: Solidarity Fund in some ways is very is very bizarre,

2900
02:58:49,640 --> 02:58:52,520
Speaker 14: just because there was like a link on this website

2901
02:58:52,840 --> 02:58:55,520
Speaker 14: to donate to the Solidarity Fund, but any anyone could

2902
02:58:55,560 --> 02:58:58,119
Speaker 14: put a link there like that's like I've put links

2903
02:58:58,120 --> 02:59:00,880
Speaker 14: to the Solidarity Fund in the show notes of this podcast, right,

2904
02:59:00,920 --> 02:59:04,160
Speaker 14: I'm I'm not I'm not connected to them in any

2905
02:59:04,360 --> 02:59:08,040
Speaker 14: in any other way. So just just having having that

2906
02:59:08,240 --> 02:59:10,680
Speaker 14: be this this kind of aspect and even even if

2907
02:59:10,760 --> 02:59:14,039
Speaker 14: somehow Solidarity Fund were running running running this whole website,

2908
02:59:14,080 --> 02:59:16,039
Speaker 14: which there's no evidence they are, this feels like would

2909
02:59:16,040 --> 02:59:18,120
Speaker 14: also relate to like a section two thirty case where

2910
02:59:18,480 --> 02:59:22,080
Speaker 14: people who host content are not responsible for the actual

2911
02:59:22,400 --> 02:59:25,160
Speaker 14: like like they're they're not like the I'm not a

2912
02:59:25,320 --> 02:59:27,760
Speaker 14: super big lob person, but this usually applies to like

2913
02:59:27,800 --> 02:59:31,199
Speaker 14: social media sites and other places that host user generated content,

2914
02:59:31,600 --> 02:59:34,520
Speaker 14: that the actual site itself is not responsible for the

2915
02:59:34,680 --> 02:59:37,240
Speaker 14: user generated content that is that is that is on

2916
02:59:37,440 --> 02:59:40,040
Speaker 14: this site. So it's anyway, there's a whole bunch of

2917
02:59:40,120 --> 02:59:42,680
Speaker 14: you know, various various aspects of this claim that don't

2918
02:59:42,720 --> 02:59:44,960
Speaker 14: don't make any sense to me. But it's verically that

2919
02:59:45,000 --> 02:59:47,640
Speaker 14: they're trying to wrap all of these no blogs posts

2920
02:59:47,680 --> 02:59:50,880
Speaker 14: in because that's the most that's most like the evidence

2921
02:59:50,920 --> 02:59:53,280
Speaker 14: they have, which is extremely weak, you know, it's it's

2922
02:59:53,320 --> 02:59:55,880
Speaker 14: it's in some ways a good sign that all they

2923
02:59:55,959 --> 02:59:58,120
Speaker 14: have are these anonymous posts on this website with no

2924
02:59:58,560 --> 03:00:02,400
Speaker 14: actual you know, idea of who made them or if

2925
03:00:02,440 --> 03:00:05,320
Speaker 14: they're true or not. But that's the kind of that's

2926
03:00:05,360 --> 03:00:07,040
Speaker 14: the that's a lot of a lot of what a

2927
03:00:07,120 --> 03:00:08,960
Speaker 14: lot of what they are going off or are just

2928
03:00:09,040 --> 03:00:12,720
Speaker 14: these website posts which well, a lot of these things.

2929
03:00:13,360 --> 03:00:18,320
Speaker 4: I don't even know if they could make them admissible

2930
03:00:19,800 --> 03:00:25,560
Speaker 4: or under what theory, because you know, we don't. I

2931
03:00:25,680 --> 03:00:28,280
Speaker 4: don't know how they would attribute them, right, I mean,

2932
03:00:29,840 --> 03:00:32,600
Speaker 4: look their public statements. I suppose they can bring them

2933
03:00:32,640 --> 03:00:36,080
Speaker 4: in just as public statements that have been made. But

2934
03:00:37,080 --> 03:00:43,520
Speaker 4: the indictment is a mess, and it is full of

2935
03:00:44,400 --> 03:00:50,640
Speaker 4: baffling claims and unsupported claims and claims that are demonstrably untrue.

2936
03:00:53,120 --> 03:00:59,760
Speaker 4: And nevertheless, I am concerned that they may get some

2937
03:01:00,600 --> 03:01:04,760
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't practice in that jurisdiction. I'm

2938
03:01:04,840 --> 03:01:08,320
Speaker 4: not familiar. You know, I've never defended a RICO case.

2939
03:01:09,480 --> 03:01:14,040
Speaker 4: Just to be clear, you know, my my wheelhouse is

2940
03:01:14,080 --> 03:01:18,959
Speaker 4: state repression. This is clearly that. But I'm not tremendously

2941
03:01:19,040 --> 03:01:29,160
Speaker 4: familiar with litigating rico, and I'm not you know, I

2942
03:01:29,240 --> 03:01:33,279
Speaker 4: would like to have some faith in the legal system,

2943
03:01:33,480 --> 03:01:39,080
Speaker 4: but that faith has been worn rather thin, and it

2944
03:01:39,160 --> 03:01:45,119
Speaker 4: has particularly been worn thin after watching you know, all

2945
03:01:45,200 --> 03:01:49,000
Speaker 4: of the abuses that have taken place in this particular case. So,

2946
03:01:49,440 --> 03:01:52,520
Speaker 4: you know, I am really concerned. I'm really concerned about

2947
03:01:52,680 --> 03:01:59,879
Speaker 4: the constitutionality of this statute and of the domestic Terrorism Statute.

2948
03:02:03,280 --> 03:02:05,720
Speaker 4: I am concerned about what will happen in the courts

2949
03:02:07,080 --> 03:02:15,800
Speaker 4: if this proceeds. That said, it is entirely possible that

2950
03:02:16,040 --> 03:02:20,280
Speaker 4: this is like many many criminal cases that are brought

2951
03:02:20,320 --> 03:02:25,920
Speaker 4: in the context of protest movements. It is entirely possible

2952
03:02:25,959 --> 03:02:30,160
Speaker 4: that the primary thing motivating these cases is an effort

2953
03:02:30,280 --> 03:02:36,760
Speaker 4: to fractionate and drain and distract and criminalize, in the

2954
03:02:37,000 --> 03:02:43,080
Speaker 4: popular imagination, the movement to stop cop City. They may

2955
03:02:43,200 --> 03:02:46,080
Speaker 4: be more interested in doing those things than they are

2956
03:02:46,480 --> 03:02:51,240
Speaker 4: in obtaining any convictions or proceeding to trial, and they

2957
03:02:51,320 --> 03:02:56,840
Speaker 4: may well succeed. You know, Look, prosecution is a very

2958
03:02:57,440 --> 03:03:04,880
Speaker 4: very effective way to to undermine movement solidarity, and it's

2959
03:03:04,920 --> 03:03:08,280
Speaker 4: a very effective way to undermine popular support, and it's

2960
03:03:08,320 --> 03:03:12,920
Speaker 4: a very effective way to make it impossible for people

2961
03:03:12,959 --> 03:03:16,560
Speaker 4: to actually focus on their movement goals because they have

2962
03:03:16,640 --> 03:03:19,240
Speaker 4: to spend all of their time doing court support and

2963
03:03:20,120 --> 03:03:22,160
Speaker 4: hiring lawyers and talking to me.

2964
03:03:22,920 --> 03:03:23,440
Speaker 5: Right, And.

2965
03:03:24,920 --> 03:03:27,120
Speaker 4: When you're talking to me, you're probably not doing a

2966
03:03:27,200 --> 03:03:33,160
Speaker 4: lot of public education or signature gathering or forest defense. Right, So,

2967
03:03:35,000 --> 03:03:36,800
Speaker 4: you know, I guess what I would say is like,

2968
03:03:36,879 --> 03:03:39,800
Speaker 4: this is a very clear example of state repression. It

2969
03:03:39,959 --> 03:03:42,920
Speaker 4: is extremely disruptive. I'm sure that the people who are

2970
03:03:43,560 --> 03:03:48,200
Speaker 4: included on this indictment have good reason to be quite anxious.

2971
03:03:49,280 --> 03:03:54,640
Speaker 4: But that said, as I frequently remind people, state repression

2972
03:03:54,800 --> 03:03:58,440
Speaker 4: is not new. It exists all of the time, whether

2973
03:03:58,560 --> 03:04:00,440
Speaker 4: or not we can see it. Right, even if we

2974
03:04:00,520 --> 03:04:04,359
Speaker 4: didn't have this indictment, there would be other things happening.

2975
03:04:05,920 --> 03:04:09,640
Speaker 4: And the most powerful weapon that the state has to

2976
03:04:10,280 --> 03:04:14,480
Speaker 4: quell social movements is fear. And so the solution to

2977
03:04:14,560 --> 03:04:18,440
Speaker 4: state repression is not self censorship. It is not staying home.

2978
03:04:19,160 --> 03:04:19,920
Speaker 4: It is courage.

2979
03:04:21,040 --> 03:04:23,160
Speaker 14: I think that's one of the more you know, interesting

2980
03:04:23,240 --> 03:04:26,360
Speaker 14: things about what's been happening in Atlanta the past two

2981
03:04:26,440 --> 03:04:28,800
Speaker 14: years is that every time the state has kind of

2982
03:04:28,879 --> 03:04:31,960
Speaker 14: unveiled a new suppression tactic, right, it's whether it's like

2983
03:04:32,280 --> 03:04:36,400
Speaker 14: you know, increased raids and domesti terrorism charges, you know,

2984
03:04:36,480 --> 03:04:39,240
Speaker 14: all of this, the Solidarity fund raid, you know, trying

2985
03:04:39,280 --> 03:04:43,360
Speaker 14: to compromise people's ability to access bail funds. Every time

2986
03:04:43,480 --> 03:04:45,920
Speaker 14: there's been this this kind of new attempt. It has

2987
03:04:46,080 --> 03:04:48,680
Speaker 14: not caused people to back down. It's caused them to

2988
03:04:48,760 --> 03:04:52,640
Speaker 14: actually like strengthen their solidarity with each other and keep

2989
03:04:52,680 --> 03:04:55,000
Speaker 14: on and keep on going. I think that's because all

2990
03:04:55,040 --> 03:04:57,039
Speaker 14: of these things have been seen from the start as

2991
03:04:57,280 --> 03:05:00,600
Speaker 14: very clear tactics of state repression. It is actually like

2992
03:05:00,680 --> 03:05:03,080
Speaker 14: catalyze people to actually like care for each other more

2993
03:05:03,520 --> 03:05:05,720
Speaker 14: and and and and recognize what is going on so

2994
03:05:05,800 --> 03:05:08,440
Speaker 14: they can respond appropriately and and and not let all

2995
03:05:08,480 --> 03:05:11,280
Speaker 14: of these all of these very like chilling tactics, but

2996
03:05:11,800 --> 03:05:14,480
Speaker 14: consciously make sure that you recognize that so that you

2997
03:05:14,520 --> 03:05:16,600
Speaker 14: don't let it really like you know, affect your ability

2998
03:05:16,680 --> 03:05:19,680
Speaker 14: to continue continue doing the work that you feel is

2999
03:05:19,720 --> 03:05:22,720
Speaker 14: so important. And that's absolutely been one of the things

3000
03:05:22,760 --> 03:05:27,920
Speaker 14: that's been very unique to watch in Atlanta. I think, uh,

3001
03:05:28,000 --> 03:05:29,920
Speaker 14: I think we've kind of covered lots of lots of

3002
03:05:30,000 --> 03:05:32,680
Speaker 14: what I wanted to get into. In case you have

3003
03:05:32,760 --> 03:05:34,840
Speaker 14: any other kind of things of note or any like

3004
03:05:34,879 --> 03:05:37,080
Speaker 14: any like a resources you want to you want.

3005
03:05:37,000 --> 03:05:37,959
Speaker 5: To point people towards.

3006
03:05:39,080 --> 03:05:40,680
Speaker 14: I think I think we'll be kind of close to

3007
03:05:40,720 --> 03:05:41,360
Speaker 14: wrapping up here.

3008
03:05:42,600 --> 03:05:46,320
Speaker 4: I do not do social media, so I have nothing

3009
03:05:46,400 --> 03:05:53,680
Speaker 4: to plug. I think the best resources that are out

3010
03:05:53,720 --> 03:06:00,360
Speaker 4: there are The Center for Constitutional Rights has uh zine

3011
03:06:00,440 --> 03:06:09,560
Speaker 4: called if an Agent knox YEP and the Electronic Frontier

3012
03:06:09,720 --> 03:06:16,400
Speaker 4: Foundation has a website called Surveillance Self Defense. And I

3013
03:06:16,440 --> 03:06:20,959
Speaker 4: would recommend everyone familiarize themselves with both of those things,

3014
03:06:23,200 --> 03:06:26,000
Speaker 4: and for the love of God, encrypt your phone and

3015
03:06:26,360 --> 03:06:26,960
Speaker 4: use signal.

3016
03:06:27,720 --> 03:06:32,600
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, I love the things about that indictment that

3017
03:06:33,160 --> 03:06:33,440
Speaker 5: was so.

3018
03:06:34,920 --> 03:06:38,199
Speaker 4: That just made me roll my eyes until they popped

3019
03:06:38,240 --> 03:06:42,640
Speaker 4: out the back of my head. Was this casting of

3020
03:06:42,760 --> 03:06:48,840
Speaker 4: the use of encrypted technology as being extremely sinister, and

3021
03:06:49,840 --> 03:06:54,680
Speaker 4: I thought, my god. You know, privacy is good actually, and.

3022
03:06:55,720 --> 03:06:59,080
Speaker 12: It's literally in the Constitution like it is in fact

3023
03:06:59,240 --> 03:07:02,520
Speaker 12: the case that the government is not entitled to all

3024
03:07:02,640 --> 03:07:07,080
Speaker 12: information about us, which is why we have curtains and doors.

3025
03:07:10,000 --> 03:07:14,040
Speaker 14: Yes, no, there's certainly many many funny aspects of the

3026
03:07:14,160 --> 03:07:17,920
Speaker 14: Reco case. Hopefully, you know, people, this will all, you know,

3027
03:07:18,120 --> 03:07:21,200
Speaker 14: turn out to be not very legally viable and in

3028
03:07:21,320 --> 03:07:24,080
Speaker 14: ten years we can just laugh about it. But I mean,

3029
03:07:24,840 --> 03:07:27,280
Speaker 14: you know, it's people have been talking about, you know,

3030
03:07:27,440 --> 03:07:30,400
Speaker 14: the increased possibility for these types of grand juries. You

3031
03:07:30,480 --> 03:07:33,200
Speaker 14: know this this was a grand jury in the case

3032
03:07:33,200 --> 03:07:36,800
Speaker 14: of these Reco indictments, where they used Special Agent Ryan

3033
03:07:36,879 --> 03:07:38,760
Speaker 14: Long of the GBI is their only witness.

3034
03:07:39,600 --> 03:07:42,560
Speaker 4: I was noticing this. I thought, my god, you only

3035
03:07:42,680 --> 03:07:46,600
Speaker 4: had one witness for all of these allegations. Well, no,

3036
03:07:46,800 --> 03:07:52,320
Speaker 4: wonder your indictment reads like it was. All right, Yes,

3037
03:07:53,000 --> 03:07:56,000
Speaker 4: I'm gonna stop talking shit about their indictment.

3038
03:07:57,240 --> 03:07:59,920
Speaker 14: While recognizing this is state oppression, there's still like, you know,

3039
03:08:00,040 --> 03:08:03,480
Speaker 14: an ongoing fear of grand juries and like further indicts

3040
03:08:03,600 --> 03:08:05,520
Speaker 14: in Atlanta, because you have to this is very like

3041
03:08:05,840 --> 03:08:07,920
Speaker 14: life and death work, and this is a very life

3042
03:08:07,959 --> 03:08:12,680
Speaker 14: and death situation, so you know, very there's very very

3043
03:08:12,760 --> 03:08:16,680
Speaker 14: clear uh practices like like using signal and shutting the

3044
03:08:16,720 --> 03:08:19,920
Speaker 14: fuck up, which are very important when you know when

3045
03:08:19,920 --> 03:08:21,400
Speaker 14: you're when you when you're doing this sort of thing.

3046
03:08:22,040 --> 03:08:24,760
Speaker 14: One other thing is that, uh, for for a while

3047
03:08:24,840 --> 03:08:27,200
Speaker 14: after the Solidarity Fund was rated, they were not you know,

3048
03:08:27,280 --> 03:08:29,840
Speaker 14: taking in donations. They they were outsourcing it to the net,

3049
03:08:29,879 --> 03:08:32,840
Speaker 14: to the National Bill Fund. I believe they are they

3050
03:08:32,879 --> 03:08:36,640
Speaker 14: are back this. The Solidarity Fund website is now once

3051
03:08:36,640 --> 03:08:40,680
Speaker 14: again taking taking donations to help people who are facing

3052
03:08:40,800 --> 03:08:44,480
Speaker 14: this repression, for legal support, for counsel, all all these

3053
03:08:44,640 --> 03:08:47,640
Speaker 14: sorts of things. And because this case just keeps on growing,

3054
03:08:48,240 --> 03:08:51,280
Speaker 14: you know, they're they're always kind of needing, needing, needing

3055
03:08:51,320 --> 03:08:53,600
Speaker 14: more resources to get people lawyers, to get people out

3056
03:08:53,640 --> 03:08:56,360
Speaker 14: of jail, all of these sorts of things. So you

3057
03:08:56,440 --> 03:08:58,480
Speaker 14: can you can once again donate at the at the

3058
03:08:58,560 --> 03:09:02,400
Speaker 14: at L solidarity site. So that is that is also

3059
03:09:02,560 --> 03:09:05,600
Speaker 14: kind of new news as of as of the past few,

3060
03:09:05,840 --> 03:09:10,480
Speaker 14: uh few weeks. Thank you mom for talking about this. Uh,

3061
03:09:10,879 --> 03:09:12,640
Speaker 14: this is very enlightening.

3062
03:09:13,520 --> 03:09:16,160
Speaker 4: It's my pleasure. And I guess the last thing I'll

3063
03:09:16,240 --> 03:09:19,920
Speaker 4: say is I do as always want to remind all

3064
03:09:20,000 --> 03:09:25,160
Speaker 4: of your listeners that there is never ever a compelling

3065
03:09:25,320 --> 03:09:30,160
Speaker 4: reason to speak to police or answer their questions before

3066
03:09:30,760 --> 03:09:34,280
Speaker 4: you talk to a lawyer. And so if please start

3067
03:09:34,360 --> 03:09:36,920
Speaker 4: asking you questions, the one and only thing you need

3068
03:09:37,040 --> 03:09:40,880
Speaker 4: to say is I am going to remain silent and

3069
03:09:41,000 --> 03:09:44,120
Speaker 4: I want to speak with my attorney. And if they

3070
03:09:44,200 --> 03:09:46,400
Speaker 4: knock on your door or call you on the phone,

3071
03:09:46,959 --> 03:09:50,959
Speaker 4: you can say I am represented by counsel. Please leave

3072
03:09:50,959 --> 03:09:53,400
Speaker 4: your name and number and my lawyer will call you.

3073
03:09:54,520 --> 03:09:54,760
Speaker 2: Yep.

3074
03:09:56,680 --> 03:09:58,400
Speaker 14: You can print up the little sheet that tells you

3075
03:09:58,480 --> 03:09:59,879
Speaker 14: what to say, put it, put it next to your

3076
03:10:00,160 --> 03:10:03,160
Speaker 14: or join the join the number of punk houses that

3077
03:10:03,320 --> 03:10:04,480
Speaker 14: have that have the.

3078
03:10:04,520 --> 03:10:06,560
Speaker 5: Sheet next to their next to their front door.

3079
03:10:08,680 --> 03:10:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3080
03:10:09,040 --> 03:10:13,400
Speaker 14: Absolutely, well again, thank you Byra, Thank you for listening

3081
03:10:13,440 --> 03:10:13,920
Speaker 14: for everybody.

3082
03:10:14,080 --> 03:10:16,119
Speaker 5: Uh yeah, do not do not talk to cops.

3083
03:10:19,640 --> 03:10:22,760
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3084
03:10:22,879 --> 03:10:24,720
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3085
03:10:25,360 --> 03:10:27,680
Speaker 6: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3086
03:10:27,959 --> 03:10:30,600
Speaker 6: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3087
03:10:30,640 --> 03:10:32,840
Speaker 6: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

3088
03:10:32,879 --> 03:10:36,279
Speaker 6: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3089
03:10:36,720 --> 03:10:38,840
Speaker 6: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3090
03:10:38,920 --> 03:10:42,920
Speaker 6: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.