1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 2: You know, everyone who she'd ever insulted in her paper 3 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 2: became a suspect. That's a long list. 4 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 3: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 5 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 3: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 3: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 7 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 3: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 8 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 3: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 3: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 10 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 3: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 11 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 3: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 12 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 3: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 13 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 3: unpublished details by behind their stories. 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: When an outspoken journalist in India was assassinated in September 15 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen, it shocked the world. The conspiracy that 16 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: was uncovered by journalists and investigators was disturbing. Author Rollo 17 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: Romig tells me the story at the center of his book, 18 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: I Am on the hit List. When you pitch this 19 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: to New York Times magazine, what was your one paragraph 20 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: pitch I mean, how do you summarize the story of 21 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: a female journalist who, of course we've read about all 22 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: over the world female journalists being murdered, and usually for 23 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: political reasons. But how do you pitch this to the 24 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: New York Times magazine where they say, oh, okay, our 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: readers will read this story. 26 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, it could be a little tough 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: to get people to read stories that happen outside of 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: their own country. You know, it can be a little 29 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: bit of a tough sell. You know, there's a lot 30 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: that needs to be explained to you. There's a lot 31 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: you need to get caught up on. I had to 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 2: learn a lot about India, you know, when I started 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: going there, before I could even kind of begin to 34 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: understand it, and then about it. It's funny though, you know, 35 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: I as soon as it happened, I was about to 36 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: pitch it to my editor at the Times magazine, and 37 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: before I got a chance to, she came to me 38 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: and asked me if I wanted to write about it. 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 3: Well, that's nice, Yeah, that is nice. 40 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 4: It's nice. 41 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: So that and then it sees me the work if 42 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: I had to do a pitch, I love that. But 43 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: you know, but it was that kind of story where 44 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: it just there was obviously something going on here, you know, 45 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: and I think my editor's feeling and my feeling was 46 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 2: this too, that it seemed emblematic of just this sinking 47 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: feeling of where things are going in India because things 48 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 2: have taken a really harsh turn politically, you know, over 49 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: the past ten years. Narendra Modi is the Prime Minister 50 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 2: and he's with this party to be JP. You know, 51 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: they're one of these hard right parties that have become 52 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 2: really popular worldwide. 53 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 4: And a lot. 54 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: Of things have gotten really bad and hard in India, 55 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 2: and one of those things is suppression of the press. 56 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: You know, so and Gowery Lankesh was a journe and 57 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 2: so it's been really hard. It's become extremely hard to 58 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: do journalism in India now and there's serious repercussions for 59 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: you if you practice it freely. And so this case, 60 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: at that time, no one had any idea who had 61 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 2: murdered her or why, but it seemed like, you know, 62 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: journalists murdering on her doorstep. This is kind of a 63 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: way in to talk about this disturbing stuff that's happening. 64 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 3: Is being a member of the press in India akin 65 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 3: to being a member of the press in China. Is 66 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 3: it that lockdown or is it more intimidation not orders. 67 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: It's a really interesting question. I feel like it's kind 68 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:37,839 Speaker 2: of a mix. I feel like it's a lot more 69 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: subtle than in China. I'm not a China expert, but 70 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: just my sense is like it's a weird kind of 71 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: paradox of journalism in India because people speak really freely 72 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: in India compared to a lot of other places. You know, 73 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: it's an amazing place to do journalism because like people 74 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: just want to talk to you, and people have opinions 75 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: and they want to share them. You know, I love it. 76 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: And there's so much journalism. You know, it's one of 77 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: the places where newspapers are still thriving somehow, and every 78 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: form of journalism is kind of thriving. There's so much 79 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: journalism being done, and so much of it Israeli brave journalism. 80 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: From the outside, it might not look like it's being 81 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: seriously repressed. 82 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 4: It is being seriously repressed though. 83 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: In fact, I forget the organization that tracks this, but 84 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: one of these you know kind of NGOs that tracks 85 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 2: press suppression. It ranks India's press freedom currently as like 86 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: around Afghanistan. Seriously like that bad. It doesn't look like 87 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: it from the outside, but there's so many The tactics 88 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: are often super subtle, like if your publication is honest 89 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: about things, you're going to get a tax raid or 90 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: your editor's going to get orders from someone in the government, 91 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: but you know behind the scenes, and you'll lose your 92 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: job if you don't comply. Increasingly journalists are going to 93 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: jail though in journalists from outside India are being sent 94 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: home or not allowed in. So there's an increasing number 95 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: of political prisoners who are writers in India. So that's 96 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: a lot more overt, but a lot of it is 97 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: pretty subtle. 98 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 4: It's a mix. 99 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about Gowery. She inherited her newspaper from 100 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: her father right when he died in two thousand, so 101 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 3: this is already it's in her blood to be a 102 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 3: heart is reporter who reported on things like, you know, 103 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 3: the rights of transgender women in India, which definitely seems 104 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 3: to land somewhere on the political spectrum of controversy, I'm sure. 105 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 106 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 2: And even that it's like you know, being transgender in India. 107 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 2: It's both got commonalities with kind of the social phenomenon here, 108 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: but also totally different cultural context the transgender people occupy 109 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: in India. Transgender people in India have even in some 110 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: ways had like kind of a defined cultural role in 111 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: society in a way that doesn't really we don't really 112 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: see here. But then some of the same problems, a 113 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 2: lot of the same marginal as the etc. But yeah, 114 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: so she comes from you know, her father was not 115 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: just a journalist, he just kind of changed the course 116 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,559 Speaker 2: of journalism where he lives. So she's from this state 117 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: Carnatica in South India. And the crazy thing about India 118 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: is it's a country, but it's really in some ways 119 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 2: a lot more comparable to a continent. It's kind of 120 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: like Europe in a lot of ways. It's like if 121 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: Europe happened to be one big country, because it's got 122 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: so many different cultures and languages and regions and climates 123 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: and everything, you know, and like each like each state 124 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: has its own cinema, you know, Like we hear about Bollywood, 125 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 2: which is the Hindi mainstream cinema, but every state has 126 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: its own cinema and their own language, and it's got 127 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 2: its own styles and everything. 128 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 4: It's it's incredible. 129 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: So's she's from Karnatica and the predominant language there is Kanada, 130 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: which has nothing to do with Hindi. 131 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 4: That was the language that her paper was in. 132 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: And her father was just like he was just like 133 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: this revluetionary literary figure in Kannada, one of the most 134 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: famous Kanada writers ever. And he was already a famous novelist, filmmaker, 135 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: short story writer, playwright, poet, and then he decided to 136 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: found a tabloid newspaper and then that was his true 137 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: calling and it was like this must read newspaper that 138 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: just kind of like dominated the conversation, a social conversation, 139 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 2: the political conversation in Karnatica for twenty years. So he 140 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: was this huge figure and she kind of coincidentally went 141 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: into journalism just as a student around the same time 142 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: that he founded this newspaper, but she went on a 143 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: completely different track. She was just like a mainstream English 144 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: language journalist, just doing kind of you know, kind of 145 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: more regular news stories and feature stories from mainstream English 146 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: language papers. And while he was like this kind of 147 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: like punk rock figure, also incredibly literary and like bringing 148 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 2: in all this stuff from translation all over the world. 149 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: Like the way people talk about this newspaper of his. 150 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: They it's like the greatest newspaper that ever existed, Like 151 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: this weird mix of like the New York Post because 152 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: it was like super silatious and gossipy and tabloidy, but 153 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: also like the New Yorker. 154 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was looking for a definition of tabloid. I 155 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: didn't know if it was tabloid as in that's the 156 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: physical layout which could be referred to in other countries, 157 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 3: or if it is our definition of a tabloid, which 158 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 3: is like she said, salaciousness. 159 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: Both okay, he did not shy away from being totally 160 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 2: sialacious and gossipy, and he loved it and it was 161 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: like lurid and like sex scandals and all this kind 162 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: of stuff. So when he died, he died, you know, 163 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: pretty unexpectedly, and then no one was thinking about Gowery 164 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: as falling in his footsteps, partly because she wasn't even 165 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: fluent in Canada, the language that the paper was in, 166 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: So why would anyone think that she would do it. 167 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: This is in the year two thousand, but there was 168 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: kind of no one else to do it at that moment. 169 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: It just kind of happened really fast, and she took 170 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: over the paper and a lot of the like the 171 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 2: longtime writers for the paper thought it was a terrible idea, 172 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: but she really like that really transformed her and made 173 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: her and she kind of turned her into a different person. 174 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 2: Having to do this, she quickly became fluent in Kandada. 175 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 2: Like that's crazy, like taking over as editor of a 176 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: paper that you're not even totally fluent in the language, 177 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 2: Like I cannot imagine that. And like her colleague said, like, 178 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: you know, when you write your editorials for the paper, 179 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: you know you can at first rate them in English 180 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: and will translate them. And she said, no, I'm going 181 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: to write in Condada from the beginning. And she was like, look, 182 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 2: I'll just write in the Condada that I know, which 183 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: is just colloquial, imperfect street Kanada, and just kind of 184 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: try to talk directly and I'll just be honest about 185 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: my shortcomings. And that was kind of her attitude in general, 186 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 2: like I'm not going to bullshit take me as I 187 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: am before then, you know, she really wasn't like a 188 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: prominent journalist and anyway, you know, she was kind of 189 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 2: a steady working journalist. Her personality she was kind of 190 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: a force of nature. 191 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 3: You know. 192 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: She was someone who just had a lot of friends. 193 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: She threw a lot of parties, legendary parties. She was 194 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: kind of a connector of people and just like a 195 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: really warm and delightful presence in people's lives. And then 196 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: she took over as editor this paper, and that kind 197 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: of put her in a different position where suddenly she's like, 198 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: it made her super plugged into all this local stuff 199 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: happening all over the state, and she started becoming like 200 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: a connector of people on that level, you know. And 201 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: then increasingly, as she got more connected to all these 202 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: like local issues happening all over Connecticut, she became a 203 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 2: lot more activist minded. 204 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 4: And she started. 205 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: Feeling like, unlike a lot of journalists, started feeling like, look, 206 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: I have a perspective here, I have a viewpoint. I'm 207 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: not going to shy away from being an activist in 208 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: my journalism. Very controversial position for journalists. Yeah, but she 209 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: was like, fuck it. I have things I want to say, 210 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: and I believe in them strongly. I don't see why 211 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: I should pretend that I'm neutral. Because I think her 212 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: fundamental position was neutrality is a political position in defense 213 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 2: of the status quo, in defense of power structures as 214 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: they are, and I see what she means. You know, 215 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: this was really meaningful for me working on this book. 216 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: Was you know, that attitude kind of rubbed off on 217 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: me as I became immersed in her life and in 218 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: her work. Like I found that convincing, I didn't find 219 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 2: everything about her approach convincing. She could be really kind 220 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: of reckless as a journalist too, you know, like she 221 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: would like she would never like if she was writing 222 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: about a crime, she would never use the word allegedly. 223 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: Oh geez, seriously, I know it's like this is pretty 224 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: standard for journalists, Like, yeah, unless someone's actually been convicted 225 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 2: of a crime, you say allegedly. 226 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: Or police say, you just say police say exactly. 227 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: She never would say police say, or allegedly. And her 228 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: father was like that too. They were like, fuck it, 229 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 2: I can tell it's true. I'm gonna call a scoundrel. 230 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: Scoundrel is something that she would say. So you didn't 231 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: pick that up, right, I didn't pick that up. No, 232 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: And she also wasn't really big on fact checking, which 233 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: exasperated her lawyer. Wow, this is not a great journalist practice. 234 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: So you know, so a lot of people, even her colleagues, 235 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: would sometimes get exasperated by this stuff and they'd be like, awry, 236 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: come on, you got a fact check. But she's like, no, 237 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 2: time is short. 238 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: Now I understand why she was traveling so much to 239 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 3: deal with defamation lawsuits and stuff. Right, you said she 240 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 3: was on the road, and it was a lot of 241 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: times it was either reporting or defamation stuff. 242 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 4: That's true. 243 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 2: So she actually got sued for defamation a lot. And 244 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: it's interesting thing because it's a mix because it's actually 245 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 2: super routine for journalists, and then you get sued for defamation, oh, terrifying. 246 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 2: So it's like in the US, it's actually really hard 247 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: to win a defamator or even file a defamation case 248 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: against a journalist. We've got really strong First Amendment freedom 249 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: of speech protections. It's really really hard to win a 250 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: defamation case. People use it to harassed journalists because if 251 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: you file a case against someone, even if you don't 252 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: win it, it forces the journalists to waste their time 253 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: in court. 254 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 3: In money they have to defend themselves. 255 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 2: Exactly, and you can file cases and jurisdictions like all 256 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 2: over the state and kind of force them to travel 257 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: to do that Gollery unfortunately opened her herself up to 258 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 2: probably more of that than was even necessary because she 259 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: could be, you know, a little loose with stuff, but 260 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: it would have happened anyway. To be clear, she actually 261 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 2: lost a defamation case not long before she died and 262 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: was sentenced to a fine and some jail time. While 263 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: she appealed it, that jail sentence was suspended. 264 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 3: What do you think were her most passionate advocacy pieces 265 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: that she had written that probably elicited to the most 266 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 3: hatred from people or threats or defamation lawsuits. 267 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: What were the real key sticking points here? 268 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 2: Do you think it was a lot of stuff. I 269 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: mean she covered a lot of ground. Her newspaper covered 270 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: all kinds of things, but increasingly became like a single minded, 271 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 2: leade political paper that was really taking aim at what 272 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: was happening in the country under the current ruling party, 273 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 2: the BJP. Her particular passion, both as a journalist and 274 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: as an activist was what in India has known as 275 00:13:55,360 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: communal harmony, so basically harmony between different religious groups and 276 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: other communities. So like in India, when people talk about 277 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 2: a communal riot, they're talking about a riot between two 278 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: different religious communities. You know, it's really interesting. India has 279 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: this incredible culture and history of syncretism, meaning these kind 280 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: of like hybrid religious practices. So, I mean, Hinduism is 281 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: such a fascinating and amazing religion. In one of the 282 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: many ways it's so fascinating is that it can kind 283 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: of absorb anything, you know, it can be almost anything. 284 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: It's really hard to define exactly what Hinduism is in 285 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: kind of any universally satisfying way, because you know, you 286 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: can't say it's polytheistic, because there are monotheistic Hindus, there 287 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: are atheistic Hindus. Hindus you know, in some places, in 288 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 2: some regions, in some situations have just easily absorbed Christian 289 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 2: ideas into their practice, have absorbed Muslim ideas into their practice. 290 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 2: And it goes the other way too, where local Muslims 291 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 2: will kind of like develop a certain ritual around a 292 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: certain local temple, you know. And there's even in some places, 293 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: like in Kerala, which is another state in the South, 294 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: there are some wonderful like narrative traditions of these kinds 295 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 2: of like these meetings between figures and deities of different religions. 296 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: And then there are these sites where people will perform 297 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: religious rituals kind of collectively. Sometimes it's just like you know, 298 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: like I know this for example, like there's this mosque 299 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: in Kerala where a lot of Hindus bring their children 300 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 2: when they're like school age, because you know, Islam is 301 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: associated it's like a religion of the book and like 302 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: you know, they bring them there to take it blessed 303 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: as they learn how to read that kind of thing. Okay, 304 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: So a lot of really interesting stuff like that. But 305 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: in Karnatica, the state where Gouri is from, there's probably 306 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: more of these kind of sites than anywhere. Places where 307 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: both Hindus and Muslims and sometimes also Christians have developed 308 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: really religious traditions are on one site and so really fascinating, 309 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: wonderful laces, and they're just kind of emblematic of like 310 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: what's possible in terms of harmony and community and getting along. 311 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: And increasingly the right wing wants to destroy these places. 312 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 2: They're targeting these places and trying to say no, these 313 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: places are just for Hindus. 314 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 4: Everyone else has to leave under threat of violence. So 315 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 4: that was happening. 316 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 2: She saw that happening in her state and became a 317 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: strong champion of defending the character of harmony in these places, 318 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 2: just to try to protect this sense of like shared 319 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: community in her state. That was something that she really 320 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 2: wrote about a lot and really became an activist on 321 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: more than anything else. 322 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: Well, we've taken a long time to get to the 323 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 3: actual crime because I mean, everything else around it is 324 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: more interesting it is. Why don't you set up that 325 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: day or however far back you want to go a 326 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: couple days beforehand. You know what she's dealing with, defamation lawsuits. 327 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 3: Will you tell me a little bit about the underpants 328 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 3: part of this story. I don't know if it plays 329 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 3: into it or not, but this is a I mean, 330 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 3: I think this is one interesting example of sort of 331 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 3: the way she would like to gig people in charge. 332 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 4: So yeah, so her paper was super irreverent. 333 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 2: So, like I said, it's a political paper, it's got 334 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: all these objectives, but it was very irreverent. Lots of comedy, 335 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 2: lots of just like jeering. It's a tabloid. 336 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 4: You know. 337 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: One thing that autocrats hate is being mocked, Yes, and 338 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: she would just go for that. So one thing that 339 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: she would really go after. So like until recently, this 340 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: is super complicated. But the BJP, the ruling party. They're 341 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 2: actually sort of they have a parent organization which is 342 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 2: called the RSS, which is this enormous right wing militia. 343 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: Actually they're like this paramilitary and it's the largest organization 344 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: in the world, like period of any kind, and it's 345 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: also obviously the largest right wing organization in the world. 346 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: And they, you know, they do these drills like these daily, 347 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,719 Speaker 2: kind of like paramilitary drills, like members of the different 348 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 2: groups in the RSS. And until recently, they would always 349 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 2: wear shorts, like these khaki shorts, and they always got 350 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: made fun of a lot for their shorts. And in 351 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: a lot of Indian languages, the word for shorts and 352 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: the word for underwear or underpants is the same chatty, 353 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 2: And so she would just incessantly refer to them as chatties, 354 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: meaning like short, like these shorts guys. But it's also 355 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: another way of just saying underpants, So super juvenile stuff. 356 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: But you know, it's funny how that comes up too. 357 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: Like the there was elsewhere in Karnatica, there was another 358 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: there was this big notorious incident where kind of an 359 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: a flex of power, this right wing group affiliated with 360 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: the ruling party attacked a pub in this coastal city 361 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 2: called Mangalore, and because like a bunch of like young 362 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: men and women were all having a party there together, 363 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: and then they attacked this pub and like brutally beat 364 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 2: the people who are attending the pub, men and women 365 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: on camera. Like the thugs invited a news crew to come, 366 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 2: and they were basically saying, this is against Hindu values 367 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: for women to be drinking in public, and that was 368 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: their reasoning. In response to that, some activists got together 369 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: and the right wing group that kind of staged this, 370 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: they launched this national campaign of mailing them pink panties 371 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: in just in order to embarrass them, you know. But 372 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 2: they called it the pink chotty campaign. So same thing 373 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 2: like that word for underwear. So there is a lot 374 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 2: of activism around underwear, I guess. But yeah, this is 375 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: very typical in the way that she wrote in her paper, 376 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: like she would exclusively refer to RSS members as chotties. 377 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 3: Well, let's get to that night. Tell me what happens. However, 378 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 3: many days in advance, you want to tell me, describe 379 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 3: what her schedule was like. 380 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: She worked NonStop because she had so much going on. 381 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: She was running this paper. She had all the these 382 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 2: activist commitments. Her friends and colleagues are always urger to 383 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 2: take time off, take a break. She never did. 384 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 3: She's not married or have kids or anything like that. 385 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: She wasn't married, but she was very devoted to her niece. 386 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: That was the one thing that she would ever take 387 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: a break for is every weekend spending time with her niece. 388 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 2: So she was really devoted to and kind of like, 389 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: you know, her niece thought of her as kind of 390 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: a second mother because her mother, Gary's sisters, was a 391 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 2: single mother, and so the two of them were just 392 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: kind of the two biggest figures in this girl's life. 393 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: Other than that, she was just she'd never stopped working, 394 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: never stopped moving, stayed up late every night, didn't take 395 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: care of herself, didn't exercise, didn't eat right, smoked way 396 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 2: too much, and her paper was not doing well. It 397 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: was failing at the time of her murder, which makes 398 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 2: it all the more striking that she was murdered, Like 399 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 2: why take out this woman whose paper is genuinely failing, 400 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: Like there was a lot of doubt at the moment 401 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 2: that she was killed with how long it would survive. 402 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: Why what changed from her when she took it over 403 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: from her father. 404 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 4: A lot of things changed. 405 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 2: I mean, part of it was that, you know, she 406 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: was delivering something very different than he did, and that 407 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: thing that she was delivering just had a smaller audience. 408 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 2: You know. A lot of it was just like tabloids 409 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: all over were kind of falling apart. That that same 410 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: year was like I heard one journalists call it the 411 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: year of the Death of the tabloids. So many tabloid 412 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 2: newspapers sprouted up inspired by her father's paper, and then 413 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: there was this whole field of competing tabloids, all of 414 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: them with different specialties, and they were kind of that year, 415 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 2: they were kind of all dying one by one, you know, 416 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: the kind of usual suspect of reasons. People are using 417 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: smartphones more, all that kind of stuff. So it just 418 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: was like a really but then also just increasing suppression 419 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: of journalism. It just became harder and harder to do 420 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: journalism and to run a public an independent publication, so 421 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: it was getting really, really hard. She was really saying 422 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 2: that she might have to close the paper soon. She 423 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 2: never ran ads in the newspaper. That was part of 424 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 2: her way of maintaining independence and integrity. She never ran ads, 425 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: which made Margins really tight. She was reliant just on 426 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: subscriptions and newsstand sales, and she was considering like maybe 427 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: I should actually start running some ads in a limited 428 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: way when she died, but then she never did, so 429 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: that's where it was. So it was kind of like 430 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 2: when she was murdered that night of September fifth, twenty seventeen. 431 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: A big part of the mystery was why was she targeted? 432 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: Because no one took credit, no one left a manifesto 433 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: explaining why they did it. It seemed to be part 434 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: of a pattern of murders. 435 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, describe it because is this typical the way 436 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 3: that this murder happened. Is this typical in India? Do 437 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 3: you think? 438 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 4: I mean? 439 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 3: Describe what happened that night? 440 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 2: Extremely not usual. That was one of the reasons why 441 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: it was so shocking. So she know she was coming 442 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,239 Speaker 2: home alone. She just got out of her car to 443 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 2: open the gate to drive her car in to her 444 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: driveway and that's when she was shot. And it was 445 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 2: two men on a motorcycle, one of whom jumped down 446 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 2: and shot her with a pistol. It was captured on 447 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 2: a CCTV camera that she had in her yard. Very 448 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: grainy footage though, was so it was hard to see 449 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: what was going on. He was wearing a helmet, but 450 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 2: he only appears for six seconds, that's how quick. It was, 451 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 2: so very little for the police to go off of. 452 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 2: But it was immediately obvious that it fit this very 453 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: clear pattern of writers who'd been murdered in the exact 454 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: same way, and none of those cases had been solved. 455 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,239 Speaker 2: The first one was in twenty thirteen, there were two 456 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 2: murders in twenty fifteen, and then Gowery in twenty seventeen. 457 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 2: Each of the three previous victims were older men with 458 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: kind of progressive ideas who were shot on their doorstep 459 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 2: by two men on a motorcycle, exact same pattern, even 460 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 2: the same kind of gun, so it seemed pretty clearly 461 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 2: definitely the same mo and almost certainly the same killers. 462 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 2: But none of those cases had gone anywhere. All three 463 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: of those previous cases seemed to have gone cold. There 464 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: was a lot of police incompetence around those cases, sometimes 465 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: just ordinary incompetence, some of it just flamboyant competence, like 466 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 2: for one of the cases. For the first case, this 467 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: raider Nerenda Doublcar. He was what you'd call a rationalist. 468 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 2: He was just this adamant anti religious figure and big. 469 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 2: His whole life's mission was to debunk religious charlatans who 470 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 2: try to trick people out of their money with fake 471 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 2: miracles and scams, and also to kind of like you know, 472 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: undermine cults and stuff like this. So he was doing 473 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: all this kind of work. His work was really fun. 474 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: He actually had this whole road show, which actually his 475 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 2: colleagues still do, where it was almost like doing magic 476 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 2: tricks in reverse, where they'd show all these tricks that 477 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 2: some of these religious charlatans do, like setting water on 478 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: fire or whatever it is, and they would show the 479 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: audience the trick and then they'd show them how it's 480 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 2: done in order to prove like none of these are miracles, 481 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: you know. And people love these shows, like they attract 482 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: like a raucous audience who loves the show. 483 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 4: So that was him, he was. 484 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: But he you know, he was shot dead in his 485 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 2: house in twenty thirteen and the case was. 486 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 4: Going nowhere, and then the. 487 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: Chief of police of Pune, the city where he was killed, 488 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 2: hired a spirit medium, a former police officer who had 489 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 2: quit the force and had switched careers into becoming a 490 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 2: spirit medium. 491 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: Which pays better, I'm assuming than being a police officer. 492 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: I guess Robbie probably makes more money. And he claimed 493 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: that he could contact Narender Dabelkr's spirit the murder victim, 494 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: and that he could tell him what had happened. And 495 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 2: obviously this wasted a lot of time. They did not 496 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 2: get any good leads out of this approach, and meanwhile, 497 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 2: the real killers were free and evidence was disappearing. 498 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 3: This series of three murders that happens before Gowery's murder, 499 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 3: all of this, to me is very chilling because it 500 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 3: ties into the title of your book, which is the 501 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 3: idea that there is a hit list of progressive journalists 502 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 3: and gallery would fit into that. And doesn't she at 503 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 3: some point say, oh, yeah, I should be on that list. 504 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: And she puts herself down exactly on the list as 505 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 3: number four, and she turns out to be number four 506 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 3: actually on murdered in this area. 507 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And so this is something that she would 508 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 2: joke about, like there clearly was a list, you know that, 509 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 2: like there are three people had been killed, and she 510 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 2: would joke about it. That's where the title comes from, 511 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 2: I am on the hit list. She would say that 512 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: as a joke with just this bravado. People would constantly 513 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: ask her, aren't you worried? Aren't you afraid? Shouldn't you 514 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 2: may take more caution? And she would just scoff at them, 515 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 2: and she was like, no one cares about me, No 516 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 2: one's coming after me giving me. At the same time, 517 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: she yeah, right, she made a list. She made her 518 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 2: own list of who she thought was likely to be killed, 519 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: and she put herself on it. 520 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 4: You know. 521 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 2: So it's hard to know exactly what she was thinking there. 522 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: Was she trying to convince herself that she shouldn't be scared. 523 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: Did she just have mixed feelings about it? 524 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, I'm. 525 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 2: Sure it would have been just too paralyzing to go 526 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: to work every day and think I'm going to get 527 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: shot over this, And so in that kind of like 528 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: Gallows humor way that some journalists have, she joked about 529 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 2: it just as a way of getting past it. 530 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 4: I guess the. 531 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 2: CCTV camera in her yard was like the only thing 532 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 2: she would do that was like the single precaution that 533 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 2: she took. And then like, you know, like she could 534 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: have she was eligible. She was threatened enough that she 535 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 2: was actually eligible for around the clock police protection. Wow, 536 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: she could have gotten that, and she was like, hell, no, 537 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 2: I can't do journalism if I've followed around by a cop. 538 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 2: And she'd never even thought about it doing that. 539 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 3: So tell me about the police investigation. She has killed. 540 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 3: The man hops back on the motorcycle, they take off. 541 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 3: The CCTV that is in her yard is fuzzy and 542 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 3: it doesn't seemingly at the beginning, look like it's going 543 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 3: to be very helpful. Number One, are we dealing with 544 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 3: the Bangalore police? Are they any good in this situation? 545 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 3: I guess start there. Are we talking about a good 546 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 3: police investigation from the beginning? 547 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: I mean, they got a lot of problems. All the 548 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: Endian police have a lot of problems. There's just such 549 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: an incredible amount of corruption in the Indian police. They 550 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 2: also just don't have enough resources. Partly they're corrupt because 551 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: they literally can't afford to do investigations, you know, like 552 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: they have to sometimes like they have to ask for 553 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,719 Speaker 2: money from a victim's family even just to do like 554 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: the driving around that is necessary to perform a real investigation. 555 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: You know, they often can't afford to feed prisoners in 556 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: their custody and they have to come up with solutions 557 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 2: to that, so it's really a mess. And then in 558 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 2: some cases the police themselves are compromised by some of 559 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: these political forces. Police have been known to participate in 560 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: religious riots and help coordinate their religious rights instead of 561 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: stopping them. So lots of different problems. The problem of 562 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: not having enough resources was not really a problem in 563 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: Gowery's case. It was such a high profile case. They 564 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: actually put together a special investigation team that had hundreds 565 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 2: of officers on it at first, hundreds of officers assigned 566 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: at once to this one case. Even so, expectations were 567 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: really low, partly given the track record of these three 568 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: previous murder cases, investigations not going anywhere, and just also 569 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: the fact that they just seem to make no progress. 570 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: The politicians who were in office at the time, like 571 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 2: the Home Minister of the state, talked really big, saying, oh, oh, 572 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 2: we're going to have a breakthrough immediately, we'd basically know 573 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: who did it. We're going to arrest people, it's right 574 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: around the corner. And then it didn't happen, and so 575 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: people start getting really cynical about it, and months passed, 576 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: and you know, I returned to India and people her 577 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: friends were mostly saying, this is going nowhere. There were 578 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: a lot of theories in the meanwhile, like in this 579 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: vacuum of information, there were so many different theories about 580 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 2: what happened to her. So obviously a lot of people 581 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: suspected the right wing, some faction of the right wing, 582 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: because that was who she had been railing against in 583 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: her paper predominantly, But there were a lot of other 584 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: things that people throughout. She had had a kind of 585 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: conflict with her brother. At one point there was a 586 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 2: rumor that he'd like waved a gun at her years ago, 587 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: so people were talking about her brother. People were like, 588 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: maybe it was a land dispute that went wrong. There 589 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 2: was no evidence that there was a land dispute, but 590 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: most conflicts in Bangalore seemed to come down to a 591 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: land dispute, so it was a reasonable guess. You know, 592 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: everyone who she'd ever insulted in her paper became a suspect. 593 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 2: That's a long list. Some of them weren't even political figures, 594 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 2: you know. And the right wing, being accused of complicity, 595 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 2: turned it around and said, we think it was the 596 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: left wing. So you know, I mentioned before these maoist 597 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: radicals who are kind of at war with the Indian government. 598 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: She'd written about them in her paper with some sympathy. 599 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: She was entirely opposed to their violence. She thought it 600 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 2: was completely stupid, but she'd wrote about their cause with 601 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: some sympathy in her paper, and she actually became part 602 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: of a project to try to help Naxalites who wanted 603 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: to leave the movement, to help them come out from 604 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: the underground and kind of rejoin mainstream society. It was 605 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: pretty successful, actually, she helped, you know, several local Naxalites 606 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: kind of get out and you know, take a different 607 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: path in life, and in collaboration with the government, crucially 608 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: with the local state government. And so the right wing 609 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: a lot of them were saying, oh, well, maybe some 610 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: actuletes were mad at her about that, so they shot her. 611 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: So all these different theories and no one knew what 612 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 2: was going on for I think it was about six 613 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: months before there were finally some arrests. 614 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 3: Okay, so tell me about that. How do they sift 615 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,719 Speaker 3: through I mean they're looking through all of these different people, 616 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 3: and you said, nobody took credit and people were confused 617 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: because her paper was failing. But we know it's perception 618 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 3: whoever killed her thought she was worth murdering whatever she did. 619 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 3: You know, even if it's something to us that seems minor, 620 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 3: it is obviously serious enough for someone else to kill over. 621 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: So what ultimately happens here? 622 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 2: So I want to talk about that question of why 623 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: she was killed, because it was kind of confusing that 624 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: she would be targeted even though her paper was failing. 625 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 2: But kind of the assumption behind that premise is that 626 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: she was definitely targeted because of her paper, And I 627 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 2: think this is where, honestly, this is the thing that 628 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: became the most important part to me about this book 629 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: is that I felt like in studying Gowerie's life, I 630 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: learned so much about how to live a life, and 631 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 2: it made me think so much about how to live 632 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: a life, and like there was this understandable assumption when 633 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: she was murdered that she'd been murdered because of her journalists, 634 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 2: because she was a journalist, and because this is a 635 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: pattern that we recognize of journalists being silenced. Her paper 636 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: wasn't super successful in the end, but I came to 637 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: see it as I think her true talents were kind 638 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: of misidentified in the popular consciousness. She was actually a 639 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 2: truly extraordinary person, but her true talents were things that 640 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: often get dismissed or undervalued. In my mind, this is 641 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 2: really a book about how a society works, Like how 642 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 2: is what makes a society healthy and the people doing 643 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 2: thankless work to make a society healthy. And I really 644 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 2: think Gorie was one of those people, and that so 645 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: much of what makes a society healthy and good is 646 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 2: it's about community and relationships and friendships and care and 647 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 2: kind of filling in these gaps of things that government 648 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: can't or won't do, you know. And in addition to 649 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 2: everything that she's doing as a journalist, she had this 650 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: extraordinary network of friendship and community and making connections between communities. 651 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 2: She had like this talent for friendship and this talent 652 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 2: for making connections between disparate groups who otherwise would have 653 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: nothing to do with each other. And behind the scenes, 654 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 2: that was the true power of her work and of 655 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 2: her life. That her paper only showed a glimmer of it, 656 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 2: you know. But like when she died, the city of Bangalore, 657 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 2: like people came out in the streets, you know, by 658 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 2: the tens of thousands, and not just because of the 659 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 2: shock of it, and not because of her newspaper, but 660 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 2: because of her and because of who she meant to 661 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 2: them personally. And it was so surprising to so many 662 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 2: people who were close to her that she was close 663 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 2: to so many other people because she was low key 664 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: about it, you know, but she kind of filled this 665 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 2: role in her community that it's undervalued. It's the kind 666 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 2: of stuff that's often dismissed as like women's work, this 667 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: kind of community building, relationship building stuff, but it's the 668 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 2: kind of thing where, like, once you lose it, and 669 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 2: especially once you lose it in a shocking, sudden, violent 670 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: way like this, it's a huge setback and you immediately see, oh, 671 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 2: there's this big golf here because this person is gone 672 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 2: and there's not obvious who's going to fill that gap. 673 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 2: This was so powerful me to realize that, like she 674 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 2: didn't win awards as a journalist, she wasn't you know, 675 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: she certainly wasn't making money as a journalist, and she 676 00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 2: wasn't really famous as a journalist. But what she did 677 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 2: with her life, through her friendships and through her talent 678 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 2: for community had such power and value in meaning for 679 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 2: everyone who touched her. And it just became so powerful 680 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 2: and moving and influential for me to talk to all 681 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 2: these people who she meant so much to and realized like, oh, 682 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: this is how people talk about someone who really made 683 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 2: an impact on them, you know, even if they only 684 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: met her a few times. 685 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,760 Speaker 3: And she has so much exposure to so many people. 686 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 3: And then you go back to this police investigation, which 687 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 3: must have been overwhelming, and I'm sure that her sister 688 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 3: and her niece were devastated by all of this, and 689 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 3: I'm sure that the police were feeling a lot of 690 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 3: pressure from people in the press, you know, to solve 691 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 3: this case. How do they eventually round up? Are we 692 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 3: satisfied that they found the right people here? So the 693 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 3: first arrest. 694 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 2: Happened in the spring of twenty eighteen, and the guy 695 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 2: they arrested, he seemed like a pretty small player in 696 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 2: the conspiracy to kill Gary Lankash. He was the guy 697 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: who was caught because he was the sloppiest, you know. 698 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 2: And actually we found out later after they all was 699 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 2: said and done, that he was someone who really annoyed 700 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 2: and exasperated his co conspirators because he was sloppy and 701 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 2: not very helpful. And his nickname was jote Manja, which 702 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 2: means pot bellied Manja because he had a a paunch, 703 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 2: but he was the one who they caught. The police 704 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: intercepted a phone call where he was talking about Garrie's 705 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 2: murder and kind of his sloppiness led them to everyone else. 706 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: The organization that killed her as a whole was very 707 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 2: disciplined and very careful and had a lot of protocols. 708 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: But you know, I guess it just takes one week 709 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 2: link to start opening this stuff up, So I do 710 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 2: think they caught the right people. It was this really 711 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 2: secretive organization, a nameless group of co conspirators that deliberately 712 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 2: didn't give a name to their group in order to 713 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 2: make it harder for the police. But ultimately the police 714 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 2: charged eighteen people of conspiring together to kill her, seventeen 715 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 2: of whom were arrested. One is still on the run, 716 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 2: and most of them, especially the senior members of the group, 717 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 2: were associated with this kind of fringe religious group based 718 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 2: in Goa called Sanatan Sansta, and they have an ashram 719 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 2: in Goa. They have a guru who runs the group. 720 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 2: Sanatan Sansa themselves has never been directly charged or implicated 721 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: with these crimes, which I still honestly don't understand why 722 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 2: there is a lot in my eyes connecting these suspects 723 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: to Sanatan Sansta. 724 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: But what's what's the motive? What do they think the 725 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: motive was. 726 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting, it's it aims like very specifically. They 727 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 2: were responding to one thing Gower said in one speech. 728 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 2: She gave a lot of speeches increasingly towards the end 729 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 2: of her life, she gave a lot of speeches as 730 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: she kind of increasingly became an activist more than a journalist. 731 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,919 Speaker 2: And she gave a speech where she was speaking about 732 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 2: Hinduism in kind of a derisive way, and she said 733 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: something to the effect of, like, Hinduism is a religion 734 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 2: that has no mother and father, Like you know Islam, 735 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 2: you know where it comes from. Christianity, who knows where 736 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 2: it comes from. Hinduism has no mother and father, kind 737 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 2: of implying that it's like a bastard religion. I'm not 738 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 2: even sure what her point was there. It was kind 739 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,879 Speaker 2: of a mean thing to say, honestly, and like, it's 740 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 2: interesting because she was an atheist and she was kind 741 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 2: of baffled by religion. She was also thought it was 742 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 2: beautiful in a lot of ways too, Like she celebrated 743 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 2: all the religious holidays. She loved celebrating them with her 744 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 2: you know, nieces and nephew to to kind of like 745 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 2: explain to them the traditions. So she was interested on 746 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 2: that level, kind of more on a cultural level, but 747 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 2: she worried a lot that religion just did more harm 748 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 2: than good, I think, and sometimes, you know, a lot 749 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 2: of her colleagues were also atheists, but sometimes it even 750 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,439 Speaker 2: made them uncomfortable, like how derisively she could speak about 751 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 2: religion because they were just like I spoke to one 752 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 2: friend of hers who just was like, obviously, no one 753 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 2: should be harmed for saying anything at all, but like, 754 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 2: it did make me uncomfortable when she spoke like that, 755 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 2: because even if I don't believe in religion, religion is 756 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 2: really important to people and they need it and it 757 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 2: helps them. You know, I'll tell you what she said 758 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 2: in that speech. Hinduism has no mother and father. It's 759 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of mean. But people have said 760 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 2: incredibly harsher things in the past in India. I mean, 761 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 2: like I said, India is a place where lots of 762 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 2: people just are super forthright with their opinions, and there's 763 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 2: a long history of people saying incredibly insulting things about 764 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 2: each other's religious beliefs. But only recently has this sort 765 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 2: of thing resulted in people getting murdered. 766 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: And I'm sure her being a woman has to play 767 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: into it too. 768 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's clear that women are far more targeted with 769 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 2: all this stuff, you know, with getting like attacked online, 770 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 2: with getting you name it. If you're a woman, especially 771 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 2: a woman journalist, you're going to be in for a 772 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 2: lot more of it. 773 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 3: So what happens there are they they're all convicted at 774 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 3: this seventeen out of eighteen. 775 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 4: No, in fact, the trial is still going on. 776 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 3: Oh wow, Okay, so first arrests. 777 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 2: Happened almost seven years ago. It took four years after 778 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 2: that for the trial to start, more than four years, 779 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 2: even though almost all of them were arrested in the 780 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. Because the Indian justice system is just incredibly slow. 781 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 2: They just they don't have enough judges. There's so many 782 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 2: reasons why it's slow, but it's cases can take decades. Yeah, Like, 783 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 2: it's not unusual for a suspect of a crime to 784 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 2: sit in jail awaiting trial for longer than the maximum 785 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 2: sentence of the thing they're charged of. 786 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 3: We're going on eight years right now from when she 787 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 3: was murdered. 788 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,839 Speaker 2: Right exactly, we're almost eight years after the murder, So 789 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 2: the trial is still ongoing. Just as of like the 790 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 2: other day, all seventeen arrested men have been released on bail, 791 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: which is a really bad sign. Actually, it's usually a 792 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 2: sign in the Indian justice system that this case is 793 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 2: not going to go anywhere. I hope it's not the case. 794 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 2: But they're all free. And when these guys got out, 795 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 2: right wing groups have celebrated them openly, like they hold 796 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 2: parties for them and put flower garlands around their necks 797 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 2: and feed them sweets. That's the reception that they get 798 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 2: when they get out of jail. 799 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you had said in your book that essentially 800 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 3: this seems like an awful omen about things to come. 801 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 3: Yeah in India, I mean, where you're just sort of 802 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 3: lionizing these people who are you know, creating political violence 803 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 3: against journalists and whomever, you know, and then they're celebrated 804 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 3: or or you know, even worse, they're let go. 805 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: So I know your confidence is pretty low about that. 806 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll see, you know, I hope I'm wrong. 807 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 2: I mean, Gowrie's longtime lawyer who's brilliant. He seems to 808 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 2: remain confident that the case, or at least hopeful that 809 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 2: the case will end in convictions, even despite all the problems, 810 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 2: the delays that everyone getting out on bail. 811 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 4: We'll see. 812 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 2: But you know, things are it's really tricky. You know, 813 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 2: things are getting worse and worse. There are so many 814 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 2: more political prisoners. People are restigous for transparently political reasons 815 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 2: and charged with terrorism. I mean, look, run Dottie Roy, 816 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 2: who is one of the most famous Indian novelists, has 817 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 2: a terrorism case against her, okay for something that she 818 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 2: said in a speech, like twelve years ago, something she 819 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 2: said in a speech, and she's got a terrorism charge 820 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 2: against her. So they're not even afraid to bring a 821 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,160 Speaker 2: charge like that against one of the country's most prominent novelists, 822 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 2: you know. And then meanwhile, a lot of people who 823 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 2: are less famous are just sitting in jail as political prisoners, 824 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 2: sometimes dying in jail political prisoners. And the situation for 825 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 2: Muslims in general is just rapidly degenerating. Depends on the state. 826 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 2: Some regions are better than others. The places where the 827 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 2: BJP controls the state government are a lot worse, there 828 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 2: are states where like open programs of ethnic cleansing are 829 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,240 Speaker 2: going on, where like Muslim doors are marked with paint 830 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 2: and Muslim families are being literally driven out of the 831 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 2: state by the dozens. So this is the kind of climate, 832 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 2: and yet we hardly ever hear about it. And even like, 833 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 2: I find that even Indians, even Indians who care about 834 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 2: this stuff, it's really easy not to know about it 835 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 2: or not to tune into it, partly because the press 836 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 2: has degenerated so much that it's hard to even find 837 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 2: coverage of some of this stuff. 838 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,319 Speaker 3: What is the message here by the end of this 839 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 3: you know, I mean you've talked about her life and 840 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 3: how it's been an inspiration for you. Yeah, and you know, 841 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 3: she poured so much of herself, for better or for worse, 842 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 3: on some of these stories that she worked on, and 843 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 3: then she has assassinated clearly and has become sort of 844 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 3: this symbol of what happens if you speak out too 845 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 3: much on the wrong thing, you know, in India. So 846 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 3: what do you think, Like, what was your big takeaway 847 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,359 Speaker 3: here that you haven't already said from this story that 848 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:35,439 Speaker 3: you walked away with. 849 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 2: It's interesting, you know, I feel like everything you just 850 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 2: laid out there, you know, the stakes and the context. 851 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 2: So many of her friends and colleagues have just taken 852 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 2: very different lessons from it. You know, some have have become, 853 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 2: you know, understandably really scared about speaking out and have 854 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 2: backed away from speaking publicly about political things. Can't blame them, 855 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 2: you know, in this kind of climate where jail or 856 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 2: murder are possible outcomes, there literally was a hit list, 857 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,840 Speaker 2: and a lot of people found their names on these lists. 858 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 2: You know that they were going to be next other people. 859 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 2: They've been emboldened by it. You know, other people have 860 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 2: started speaking out a lot more loudly than ever before. 861 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,720 Speaker 2: You know that It's just like I think that maybe 862 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,759 Speaker 2: they felt like enough is enough as a result. I mean, 863 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 2: it's easy for me, as an outsider sitting outside of 864 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 2: India to take whatever lesson I want. I've definitely found it. 865 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 2: I feel like in my life it's made me want 866 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,240 Speaker 2: to be a lot more forthright about what I believe. 867 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 2: And I'm not someone who's honestly comfortable with speaking publicly 868 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 2: about anything really, you know, like I've been talking here 869 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 2: for an hour, but it's actually not what comes naturally 870 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 2: to me, and I tend to be more private, and 871 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 2: I want to kind of keep my beliefs close, but 872 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's hard to spend all this time 873 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,240 Speaker 2: with the life of Gyrie Lunkash without taking the lesson 874 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,839 Speaker 2: of just you got to call things as you see them. 875 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 2: You know, you should actually say allegedly, and you should 876 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 2: you should backcheck, but you should also call it like 877 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:19,239 Speaker 2: you see it. 878 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 4: And if you know. 879 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 2: Something you'd be true and you believe it, then you 880 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,759 Speaker 2: should make your convictions known. Sometimes you have to deal 881 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 2: with consequences from that. I mean, honestly, it's up in 882 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 2: the air whether I'm going to be allowed back in India. 883 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,280 Speaker 2: I'm exactly the kind of writer who they've been leaving 884 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 2: out of India. I would really hate that. I have 885 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 2: in laws in India and I want to be back. 886 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 2: But it never made me feel like I shouldn't write 887 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,839 Speaker 2: this book as a result, and part of that was 888 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 2: the inspiration of the subject of the book. 889 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,719 Speaker 3: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 890 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 3: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 891 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 3: Is Wicked and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 892 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,839 Speaker 3: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast tenfold more 893 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 3: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 894 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,319 Speaker 3: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 895 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,800 Speaker 3: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. 896 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 897 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 3: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 898 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 3: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and 899 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 3: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More 900 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 3: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod