Speaker 1: What's up. I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristen. Welcome
Speaker 1: back everyone. We've got two great guests on the show.
Speaker 1: Kern Shearson, chairman and CEO of Known, and Ross Martin,
Speaker 1: President and Chief Experience Officer of Known. So, Laura, we've
Speaker 1: never actually talked to, and I don't know if there
Speaker 1: is an agency or a modern marketing company that exists
Speaker 1: today that is truly equal parts data, strategy, and creative.
Speaker 1: We've had holding companies by data companies, We've had data
Speaker 1: analytics companies by creative agencies, and they've become kind of
Speaker 1: tacked on in parts of a whole. But really what
Speaker 1: Known is doing is they've taken those three components that
Speaker 1: are equal experts and truly created one agency that works
Speaker 1: together on equal parts to create and bring the best
Speaker 1: creative work and the best kind of need based marketing
Speaker 1: to their clients and their consumers. Yeah, Alex, I think
Speaker 1: it's an interesting business model that Ross and Kerner after
Speaker 1: in bringing data and creativity to the center together. And
Speaker 1: I think coming into the conversation with Ross and Kern
Speaker 1: was really kind of posing a question or or had
Speaker 1: a question of well, who wins in a tiebreaker and
Speaker 1: you're actually going to hear this in the show. Does
Speaker 1: does data lead or does creativity lead? And even as
Speaker 1: I think over the last few episodes, we've had this
Speaker 1: sort of tension of well, is it numbers or is
Speaker 1: it gut? I think it's interesting to think about this
Speaker 1: as you listen to the conversation is this an ant
Speaker 1: or is this an oor situation? And I think this converse,
Speaker 1: Asian has been one that the industry has been having
Speaker 1: for years now, and we've been having on this show
Speaker 1: for for three seasons, yeah, and the last ten fifteen years.
Speaker 1: And I think that Ross and Kern are onto something
Speaker 1: that is different, the details of which and the nuance
Speaker 1: of which comes through in this conversation. So with that,
Speaker 1: we'll be right back. We are back at Landia with
Speaker 1: exciting partners from yield Mo. We are here with Lisa
Speaker 1: Bradner GM of Analytics and Teddy John d E, head
Speaker 1: of Product. So we're here to talk with Lisa and
Speaker 1: Teddy about making attention actionable over the next four episodes
Speaker 1: of Atlantia. Let's start from the top. What is yield Mo.
Speaker 1: Yield Mo is a next generation marketplace powered by attention
Speaker 1: analytics superior formats and real time data. So Lisa would
Speaker 1: love for you to expand on what yield mo does
Speaker 1: and share with our listeners how yield mo thinks about
Speaker 1: and approaches the market. Well, I think you have to
Speaker 1: start with you know the vision everybody has for advertising, right,
Speaker 1: we have this perfect vision. We're advertising flows like water.
Speaker 1: The right people see your ad, they get the right creative,
Speaker 1: they're inspired, they go by your product. Every impression is
Speaker 1: valuable and it just flows right. Doesn't quite work like that,
Speaker 1: never has, But I think you know Programmatic. When that launched,
Speaker 1: we were really trying to say, how do we connect
Speaker 1: this ecosystem and make everything flow? With programmatic, We've spent
Speaker 1: all the time talking about the pipes, like it's so cool.
Speaker 1: We can deliver a lot more impressions, a lot faster,
Speaker 1: we can reach your entire audience. But you know what,
Speaker 1: if you're put in sewage in those pipes, you've just
Speaker 1: wasted a whole lot of money really really quickly. So
Speaker 1: I like to step back and say, all right, great,
Speaker 1: we've built the infrastructure, we're great blumber, but let's talk
Speaker 1: about what we're putting through those pipes. Let's make sure
Speaker 1: it's quality. Let's make sure it's clean, let's make sure
Speaker 1: everybody knows that it's fraud free and can be trusted,
Speaker 1: and let's make sure we're not poisoning our own ecosystem.
Speaker 1: What do you when you talk about quality? I think
Speaker 1: that's such an interesting part of the conversation. Quality is
Speaker 1: a great question. Right. As an industry, we've been sort
Speaker 1: of stuck in lowest common denominator. Right, we talked about viewability,
Speaker 1: and we talk about fraud free or you were seen
Speaker 1: by a human not a box. But if you even
Speaker 1: look into the definition of view ability, it is a really,
Speaker 1: really really split second of moment where it's on the page.
Speaker 1: It's not exactly something I think that any brand person
Speaker 1: would say, Yeah, my brand showed up great. But it's
Speaker 1: a place to start, and it was a common denominator
Speaker 1: we could all rally around. But the reason we look
Speaker 1: at attention at yield mode in addition to those signals
Speaker 1: is we want to go a layer deeper to say,
Speaker 1: all right, we know it was seen by a human being,
Speaker 1: we know it was on the screen, and how long
Speaker 1: did they care, were they interested? Did they signal that
Speaker 1: to them it was a quality? Add experience and something
Speaker 1: they wanted to engage further in. And the better job
Speaker 1: we can do of matching the person, the device, the impression,
Speaker 1: the time, and the creative the higher quality that add
Speaker 1: experience is going to be for everybody. So how is
Speaker 1: yield MO helping the industry navigate the pipes? We have
Speaker 1: a marketplace with highly curated, high quality inventory, but it's
Speaker 1: not a walled garden, right, anybody can play and the
Speaker 1: data goes in, the data goes out. We are working
Speaker 1: across the ecosystem to find the highest quality inventory, bring
Speaker 1: our formats and our data to that and create a
Speaker 1: really really great brand experience that's good for the user
Speaker 1: tou that's in the context of what they're looking at,
Speaker 1: and bring all that together to make sure that we're
Speaker 1: delivering quality experiences and that the money we're spending is
Speaker 1: going to quality publishers. Teddy, what are your thoughts on
Speaker 1: AD experiences? Those two words actually don't typically go together,
Speaker 1: but the meaning when you put those words together around
Speaker 1: actually creating an AD experience that someone wants and potentially
Speaker 1: even anticipated right or needed, I think actually does create
Speaker 1: an experience. How are you guys thinking about that? Well,
Speaker 1: that's the idea behind quality advertising is can you deliver
Speaker 1: an ad experience to a user that actually influences and
Speaker 1: allows them to make a brand decision. And that's what
Speaker 1: we try to do it. You'll most we try to
Speaker 1: You know, there's a great technology out there. You can
Speaker 1: buy ads and serve them anywhere, but what is actually
Speaker 1: making an impact? And we focus on trying to allow
Speaker 1: marketers to seed at with with our investment and attention
Speaker 1: and so they can quickly decide, well, this is working
Speaker 1: and this isn't You do you both talk about the
Speaker 1: kind of green spaces, what i'll call green shoots. Are
Speaker 1: you working with brands do you identify through these different
Speaker 1: ad experiences new white spaces and green shoot areas for
Speaker 1: their products for audience development? And if so, how are
Speaker 1: you thinking about that? I love this notion of green shoots. Right.
Speaker 1: I've always said when you work in marketing, you're always dating,
Speaker 1: You're never married. Right. Every time you show up it's
Speaker 1: a chance to impress your customer and you never get
Speaker 1: to hang out in the catch and sweatpants. Right, It's
Speaker 1: like you've got to prove yourself every day. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think that if you think about those fast moving
Speaker 1: media metrics. If you can be really agile with the
Speaker 1: ad experience and when with the data, you can recognize
Speaker 1: when a green shoot is happening. And I think as marketers,
Speaker 1: we've always gone top down, right, here are my segments,
Speaker 1: here are the people I'm talking to. But you know,
Speaker 1: we saw this in the pandemic. People who hadn't bought
Speaker 1: certain brands in twenty years all of a sudden ripped
Speaker 1: them off the shelf. So as a brand person, you've
Speaker 1: always have to be listening for that surprise signal that
Speaker 1: signals an opportunity you may not be thinking about. And
Speaker 1: our agile data structure allows our brands to work with
Speaker 1: us to do just that. Lisa Bradner, Teddy Jwadi from
Speaker 1: yield Mo, thank you for being our partners, Thank you
Speaker 1: for coming on at Landia, Thank you for having us,
Speaker 1: and we are back at Landia. Welcoming back to guests.
Speaker 1: Curren Jeerson, Chairman and CEO of Known, and Ross Martin,
Speaker 1: president and Chief Experience Officer of Known, Welcome, guys, welcome,
Speaker 1: thank you great to be here, so good. So the
Speaker 1: first question everyone wants to know is what is known?
Speaker 1: Known came together out of three? Really? Uh, leaving companies.
Speaker 1: Company I found it almost twenty years ago is a
Speaker 1: data science and advanced analytics company me UM. It's called
Speaker 1: it was called Cheerson Associates, which is my last name.
Speaker 1: So you can see I was not on the creative side.
Speaker 1: You don't you don't want to hire me for naming.
Speaker 1: I think I added the associates so people would think
Speaker 1: I had associates. But that was about his That was
Speaker 1: about as creative as a god. But this was a
Speaker 1: company that was doing data science before it was called
Speaker 1: data science. For a lot of the big tech companies
Speaker 1: are our clients for twenty years, like Google and Microsoft
Speaker 1: and Amazon. UM. So tons of PhDs and just number
Speaker 1: crunctures and the other components come out of the brilliant
Speaker 1: creative mind and strategic mind of Ross Martin, who ran
Speaker 1: a company called Blackbird that I think somehow he must
Speaker 1: have been strategic because he got you guys to talk
Speaker 1: about it well two years ago. He was with us
Speaker 1: two years ago talking about Blackbird. Let him back in.
Speaker 1: I want him back in. I want current to continue
Speaker 1: talking about knowing. But I will just stop for one
Speaker 1: second for an ad for Atlanta to say when I
Speaker 1: was originally on your podcast. I think I got seventeen calls,
Speaker 1: so I think I owe you a chunk of cash.
Speaker 1: And anybody ever, anybody who ever shows up on this podcast,
Speaker 1: if you make it this far, you're good. Like Malcolm Gladwell, congratulations,
Speaker 1: you have now made it and you have a chance
Speaker 1: at the same kind of career that I have had
Speaker 1: over the last few years. Because I was on this
Speaker 1: and they add, you were the first guest to do
Speaker 1: live poetry on Atlantia. So Kern, I hear that you
Speaker 1: may try to want I may, I may so fastinuing
Speaker 1: with known U, the third component of this, the third heat,
Speaker 1: if you will, came out of a group called Stunt Creative,
Speaker 1: which is really a best in class creative and production
Speaker 1: studio at l A. Again you know, twenty years in
Speaker 1: the business, won every award on the planet, and the
Speaker 1: unifying belief that brought us together was this idea that
Speaker 1: art and science needed to live together in a real way,
Speaker 1: not in a big box consultancy buys global creative agency way,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, we felt like there was a
Speaker 1: place for these capabilities to sit around the table as equals,
Speaker 1: as friends, as partners, um, where everybody had a superpower,
Speaker 1: but we all wanted to work together to create the
Speaker 1: right outcome for our clients. So kar and put that
Speaker 1: into practice, right because you're doing a tremendous amount of
Speaker 1: work with TikTok right now seeing some of the work
Speaker 1: you're doing with the A n A around see her.
Speaker 1: So if you look at the spectrum of work that
Speaker 1: you have, the body of work that's out in the market,
Speaker 1: when you bring together those three pillars data, strategy, creativity,
Speaker 1: how is that manifesting? It's a great question, um So,
Speaker 1: So I think the the process. You know, what you
Speaker 1: see is creative, and what you see is creative that
Speaker 1: you hopefully remember, um And that really is evocative, and
Speaker 1: that is hitting you in a place and at a
Speaker 1: time that makes sense, right, and that that those other
Speaker 1: aspects are not what people remember, but they're part of
Speaker 1: our process. So the place we like to start is
Speaker 1: with the fundamental questions. And this goes back to the name.
Speaker 1: You know, like we wouldn't be in the marketing and
Speaker 1: advertising industry if we hadn't a long and hired about
Speaker 1: the seven different meanings of our name. But that you know,
Speaker 1: the first question is like what know yourself as a brand? Right, Well,
Speaker 1: what do you stand for? What do you mean in
Speaker 1: the world? Know your customers? Uh, why do they care
Speaker 1: about you? What do they think, feel and believe about you?
Speaker 1: And what do they need to know to understand whether
Speaker 1: or not you fit into their life? And then how
Speaker 1: do you make that know? How do you bring that
Speaker 1: to life insights out, emotion and in a way that
Speaker 1: it creates a real emotional fonts and though that that
Speaker 1: is the process. So like when we sit down, whether
Speaker 1: it's with a client, TikTok or see her or vivent
Speaker 1: or any of these or memorial sunkettering, right, it's those
Speaker 1: questions in that order. Um, what is this brand, what's
Speaker 1: happening to it? How does it exist in the world,
Speaker 1: How do we find the right audiences, how do we
Speaker 1: connect with them in the times and places and ways
Speaker 1: that makes sense? How do we bring that into being
Speaker 1: in a way that's beautiful and evocative and and it's
Speaker 1: great you know that people see our creative on the
Speaker 1: world and remember it. But the process that gets it
Speaker 1: there is really what we think drives a lot of
Speaker 1: the impact for our clients because we're not wasting impressions,
Speaker 1: we're not wasting the audience's time. So that's that's sort
Speaker 1: of the science side that's harder to see and touch,
Speaker 1: but is really part of why we think this stuff
Speaker 1: works so hard for our clients. So ross last time
Speaker 1: you were on the show, UM, we were talking all
Speaker 1: things Blackbird. How did Blackbird come to work with Current?
Speaker 1: So Blackbird came to work with Kern and also with
Speaker 1: Jeff Kingsley, who is the chief operating officer of Sheerson
Speaker 1: and now the president and CEO of Known, and also
Speaker 1: came to work with Brad Roth and Mark Feldstein from
Speaker 1: Stun because back in the day by Coom, when I
Speaker 1: was running marketing, UM, I was their clients. Sheerson Associates
Speaker 1: and Stun were like my secret weapons, and so I
Speaker 1: knew very well what those two companies were capable of
Speaker 1: and how fantastic they were they you know, even if
Speaker 1: other people didn't know that yet. UM, and I was
Speaker 1: making a living on the work they were doing. Um.
Speaker 1: The truth is Blackbirds, as you know, it was going well.
Speaker 1: It was two two and a half years old, and
Speaker 1: I loved it. But every once in a while, or
Speaker 1: like once in your lifetime, there's a generational opportunity to
Speaker 1: do something really unique. And special, not just disruptive, but
Speaker 1: game changing. So the hypothesis of known represented a generational opportunity.
Speaker 1: If what we believe to be true UM and possible
Speaker 1: could actually be achieved, then this this wouldn't be sort
Speaker 1: of just a good business opportunity, but it would be
Speaker 1: a game changing UM I guess inflection point for how
Speaker 1: marketing gets done in the twenty one century. And I
Speaker 1: know it sounds like I'm vastly overstating that, and maybe
Speaker 1: I'm a couple of years ahead of other people getting
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do, and it probably sounds a
Speaker 1: little arrogant, But in the beginning, we weren't sure, right,
Speaker 1: So we put these companies together and we started to
Speaker 1: try to go to market together as a unified set
Speaker 1: of capabilities. And think of it almost like as a
Speaker 1: moment of Pangaea where the continents come back together on Earth,
Speaker 1: when the marketing capabilities and advertising capabilities that never should
Speaker 1: have been separated are actually unified and there's no fidelity
Speaker 1: loss between them. When that happens, you actually returned to
Speaker 1: being UM. Not is efficient and effective and transparent, but
Speaker 1: you can actually align the goals of your company with
Speaker 1: the business interests of your clients. And when you can
Speaker 1: do that, then you provide the first meaningful alternative to
Speaker 1: the holding company model in a long long time. That's
Speaker 1: the opportunity that I saw. That's the opportunity that we saw,
Speaker 1: And more importantly, it's it's the opportunity that dozens of
Speaker 1: clients saw and and and really pulled us together um
Speaker 1: to provide a comprehensive set of marketing services for them.
Speaker 1: So a lot of holding companies would say the same thing,
Speaker 1: what is setting known apart? What I think is setting
Speaker 1: us apart is truly best in class in every discipline.
Speaker 1: Right In some cases, and I was kind of joking
Speaker 1: about it before, you've got companies that are pretty good
Speaker 1: at data and analytics and process and technology trying to
Speaker 1: glue on creative capability. And now you know exactly how
Speaker 1: that relationship works. You know who is the step child
Speaker 1: of who, and who drives? You know who's got the
Speaker 1: bigger revenue line and what bread is butter were right,
Speaker 1: like we all know, um. And in other cases, you've
Speaker 1: got a creative shop or a traditional media buying company
Speaker 1: hiring a couple of people who maybe have an undergrad
Speaker 1: degree in math or economics and no a little are
Speaker 1: or sequel and they're like, no, we have data capabilities,
Speaker 1: or even buying a data company, which by the way,
Speaker 1: is like the most ridiculous thing for supposedly impartial agency
Speaker 1: to be doing. But leaving that to the side for
Speaker 1: a second, what we thought was exciting about this in
Speaker 1: kind of the cultural synergy that led up to this
Speaker 1: combination was not just the thesis, not just the business opportunity,
Speaker 1: but the cultural synergies and the fact that currently the
Speaker 1: top creative director at Known Studios won't stop calling our
Speaker 1: chief technology officer to talk about you know, non stochastic
Speaker 1: modeling and like creative optimization. It's like, that's happening, that's
Speaker 1: actually happening because the creative team is totally gigging out
Speaker 1: on the data. The data scientists, and you know, this
Speaker 1: is also a real, a real different thing. We've got
Speaker 1: like postdoctoral PhD data scientists, like actual data scientists who
Speaker 1: extend the analytics capability of clients like Amazon and Microsoft
Speaker 1: and Google when they're not working on our advertising clients.
Speaker 1: And that's that's not that's not even in the realm
Speaker 1: of firepower at these other agencies and our creatives who
Speaker 1: are making these moments that break culture are also best
Speaker 1: in class and they love each other. And our strategists
Speaker 1: are sitting there in the middle of it saying, I
Speaker 1: cannot believe like the weapons that we get to deploy
Speaker 1: both on the inbound customer insight and the creation of
Speaker 1: breakthrough storytelling. So who gets the tiebreaker in data versus gut? Well,
Speaker 1: there there isn't one. That's not a that's not like
Speaker 1: it's that's just not the process that we run. The
Speaker 1: like they're not at odds with each other. What happens
Speaker 1: is are creative and strategy teams have brilliant ideas, and
Speaker 1: as often happens in creative ideation and all the sort
Speaker 1: of like work that leads up to an incredible campaign
Speaker 1: is there are a bunch of things that people love.
Speaker 1: And then there's like that final round of tweaking and
Speaker 1: tuning of like do we alpha this up or down?
Speaker 1: Like what's the color mix? How big is the like
Speaker 1: how much do we pull into the foreground background? Like
Speaker 1: what you know where? Like how tight is the focus
Speaker 1: those things? It turns out you don't have to guess,
Speaker 1: So the gut is all there like that you see
Speaker 1: the heart I would think in our TikTok campaigns, you
Speaker 1: see the heart and see her. You see the heart
Speaker 1: in what everything our studios turns out, and like the
Speaker 1: creative minds at work there, like that's real, that wasn't
Speaker 1: computer generated. And then the question is of all the
Speaker 1: thousands of different perspectives and backgrounds and sort of the
Speaker 1: constellation of audience out there. Each person is a little
Speaker 1: bit different, each platform is a little bit different. So
Speaker 1: how do I match the absolute best version of the
Speaker 1: creative to the right individual audience member based on everything
Speaker 1: I can into it about them in the right place,
Speaker 1: at the right time, in the right format, on the
Speaker 1: right platform. That's where data takes creative and like beautiful creative, evocative,
Speaker 1: creative and supercharges it. And that's where we see the
Speaker 1: results going absolutely crazy. I want to go back to
Speaker 1: something that you said that I think is probably if
Speaker 1: we don't go back to his probably passed over pretty easily.
Speaker 1: You have twenty five pH d data scientists and analytics
Speaker 1: folks working with Amazon, Google, Microsoft, not on marketing creative.
Speaker 1: We have about seventy analytics people working outside of the
Speaker 1: marketing space. I'm just talking about like the what I
Speaker 1: was trying to say, is of the of the advanced
Speaker 1: degrees working in advertising? These are not people when we like,
Speaker 1: you see listings out there and tors when we're not
Speaker 1: trying to you see listings out there for you know,
Speaker 1: data scientists or advertising analysts, and they'll say things like,
Speaker 1: you know, Excel skills are a must. Excel skills are
Speaker 1: not a must, right like they're there there. There are
Speaker 1: profoundly more powerful tools. And so when we when when
Speaker 1: we list a position for a data scientists, that's a
Speaker 1: person who's coming out of uh typically like a postdoctoral
Speaker 1: fellowship up at a leading academic institution, and you know,
Speaker 1: the folks on that team talk about sort of rehabilitating
Speaker 1: academics and and helping them find these new careers, you know,
Speaker 1: from physics finding looking searching for the ghost particle in
Speaker 1: in mild cubic mild blocks of Arctic ice, to trying
Speaker 1: to identify audience signals in social and and digital environments.
Speaker 1: And our strategy and our analytics and data science teams
Speaker 1: are beating out their pure play competitors with clients like
Speaker 1: Google and Amazon and Facebook. Can you double down on
Speaker 1: the seamlessness of your data scientists talking to your creative leads.
Speaker 1: Is that appairing that we need to see more of
Speaker 1: in the market. I think it's the thing that UM, I,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day get most excited about
Speaker 1: in our business. And in this sort of crazy concoction
Speaker 1: that that we're delivering, that's what really he got us there,
Speaker 1: That's what got us to the point of saying, we
Speaker 1: all have great businesses. Can you give us an example
Speaker 1: where like you were in a creative pitch and you
Speaker 1: you brought out data scientists and it was like, at
Speaker 1: that point, completely unexpected for the narrative of what I'm
Speaker 1: assuming brand marketers typically here in a creative pitch. Yeah, look,
Speaker 1: it happens all the time. We were I don't want
Speaker 1: to name the client, but we were working on a
Speaker 1: pretty important campaign that started with a deep dive into
Speaker 1: some micro segmentation, and um what we found in the
Speaker 1: micro segmentation and the attributes and you've got a data
Speaker 1: scientists sort of walking through like these are the drive
Speaker 1: this is the driver model of you know, who is
Speaker 1: likely to be persuadable of outcome air B or c
Speaker 1: um and And what we realized in that was that
Speaker 1: the the creative that the client wanted was something that
Speaker 1: was really sort of edgy and sharp and fresh, and
Speaker 1: what and what the audience wanted was to be spoken
Speaker 1: to an authentic way about values, right like, and you
Speaker 1: could see it and it just like it spun the
Speaker 1: creative ideation around, not because that not because it's not
Speaker 1: like not because they were being lectured by the data scientists,
Speaker 1: but because they were discovering it together, because the data
Speaker 1: scientist was surfacing a constellation of attributes and the creatives
Speaker 1: were saying, hold on, that's not what was That's not
Speaker 1: what was in the brief at all, Like what you're
Speaker 1: telling me? And am I understanding this? Right? Like if
Speaker 1: you're saying that it's suburban zip codes and it's you know,
Speaker 1: non Apple devices and it's you know, these kinds of demos,
Speaker 1: like that's not what they're asking for. Why are we
Speaker 1: doing that? And like you could just feel this this
Speaker 1: momentum building and jelling around a different vision of the
Speaker 1: opportunity and and the arc of the story that needed
Speaker 1: to be told for this brand that wasn't gonna get
Speaker 1: told But wasn't. It wasn't a research report that was
Speaker 1: plopped down on a desk, right it was it was
Speaker 1: a live collaboration and and by the way, that goes
Speaker 1: in both directions, you know, and I've seen creative teams
Speaker 1: working through a pitch and coming back to the scientists
Speaker 1: and saying like, can we test this? Does this feel right? Like?
Speaker 1: How would we start to focus into signals and social
Speaker 1: media to understand if I've got the right phrasing here,
Speaker 1: the right meme, the right kind of moment and culture
Speaker 1: like is this what it needs to be? Or should
Speaker 1: I look over here? Because I can't. I'm weighing these
Speaker 1: two options. And so sometimes it's the refinement. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: a kind of a revelation. And then I think what
Speaker 1: happens after the fact. We look at the performance of
Speaker 1: all these campaigns, even if their brand campaigns. We're running
Speaker 1: five seconds snapshots of every exposure that happened in every
Speaker 1: five seconds, and what are all of the what's all
Speaker 1: the metadata around that? How do we understand that atomic
Speaker 1: intersection of creative an audience and every day the path
Speaker 1: and matching that happens, which is a collaborative process between
Speaker 1: the creatives and the data scientists together reviewing these five
Speaker 1: second snapshots and reviewing these sort of patterns and trends
Speaker 1: that are coming out leads to a re racking of
Speaker 1: some of the really hyper specific nuances of the creative
Speaker 1: as it's happening in each platform and each subsegment. So
Speaker 1: they're like, okay, all right, we gotta swap out that
Speaker 1: art because like it's definitely like that stuff is not
Speaker 1: working on Facebook. It's working great on you know, on
Speaker 1: digital display, but we got like and for search, I
Speaker 1: feel like this copy right here, let's change that one
Speaker 1: word like And then the brainstorming happening with the data
Speaker 1: scientists and the creatives at once, saying why that word,
Speaker 1: what do we think it could be? What do we
Speaker 1: think like what is working in other parallel platforms, and
Speaker 1: you know what, like we literally had a moment. We're
Speaker 1: swapping out a single word in digital display, drove the
Speaker 1: results of that ad by one word. What you're seeing
Speaker 1: is really exciting to me, and it's actually very different.
Speaker 1: So what people aren't doing. People aren't actually going off
Speaker 1: of their web metrics or their basic campaign metrics, or
Speaker 1: they've got isolated first party data and analytics. What you're
Speaker 1: doing because you're talking about the whole thing and the
Speaker 1: right stuff at the right time and that's easy to say,
Speaker 1: but lots of folks when they're talking about data and analytics,
Speaker 1: they're talking about campaign metrics. And something we talked about
Speaker 1: was the hypothesis that more brands, more companies, more marketers
Speaker 1: need to build a multi layer hypothesis hypotheses and run them.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. The campaign is the beginning right day.
Speaker 1: What if you were to ask me, uh, the night
Speaker 1: before a big campaign launches, like, is this gonna work tomorrow?
Speaker 1: I'll say, I don't know if it's going to work
Speaker 1: tomorrow morning, but I think it has a better chance
Speaker 1: of working by mid day or later in the day
Speaker 1: because of what we learned in the morning, right Like,
Speaker 1: the very beginning of a persistent optimization loop is the
Speaker 1: most exciting time because what you're doing is treating everything
Speaker 1: that's going out in the world as a social experiment
Speaker 1: that you get to learn from. And the more quickly
Speaker 1: you can metabolize that information and act on those insights
Speaker 1: with the help of machine learning and an AI, the
Speaker 1: more quickly you can optimize. Whether it's the creative, the channel,
Speaker 1: the time, the messaging, the copy itself, the beating algorithm,
Speaker 1: it's all of those. That's why we say, for a
Speaker 1: campaign like the one we are about the launch on Sunday,
Speaker 1: if you were looking from our control room, you'd see
Speaker 1: ten to twenty permutations going out at the same time,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna learn a lot from each one of
Speaker 1: them in real time. Can you tell us about the
Speaker 1: campaign that's going out Sunday. Yeah, So we took on
Speaker 1: a new client where the Agency of Credit's Vivint, the
Speaker 1: I V I n T Home security UH company, and
Speaker 1: and it's a smart home company essentially, and you know
Speaker 1: it's it's it's becoming a loud, noisy competitive space, especially
Speaker 1: during the pandemic. This is a company that is hot
Speaker 1: as hell, like they are performing incredibly well. It's a
Speaker 1: publicly traded company, but current multi multibillion dollar company four
Speaker 1: percent on aided awareness, right like just you just haven't
Speaker 1: heard of it because it is loud, it's noisy out there.
Speaker 1: But but that's about to change. And um, we've got
Speaker 1: a really fun campaign or as Ross would say, campaigns
Speaker 1: um that that's going to support them out there in
Speaker 1: the world coming up with and there's gonna be some
Speaker 1: time pole placements and I want to come back to
Speaker 1: also like the art of this is not lost. The
Speaker 1: core creative is super funny, you're gonna see it. And
Speaker 1: what's the right sequencing of creative and how do you
Speaker 1: move people from awareness to advocacy to intent? Right like that,
Speaker 1: those things, like they're massive differences based on what they
Speaker 1: see in what order, even if all the creatives great,
Speaker 1: what what's what's really really interesting about this moment in
Speaker 1: time for Adlandia fans, right because the marketing and advertising
Speaker 1: community listens to this podcast religiously. Here's the thing, like
Speaker 1: there we're sort of seeing a bifurcation in the CMO land, right,
Speaker 1: Like there are cmos who are you know, are just
Speaker 1: not ready for this stuff, Like they don't really need
Speaker 1: to care that much and they're just sort of managing
Speaker 1: as they did before. But there's a new breed of
Speaker 1: cmos and marketing leadership. For example, you mentioned TikTok. We
Speaker 1: couldn't do what we do if if they didn't have
Speaker 1: Nick Trent in that seat leading that team, if they
Speaker 1: didn't have a team that was just excited about the
Speaker 1: marriage of art and science as we are. We couldn't
Speaker 1: do it with just any client. And what's fantastic about
Speaker 1: the clients that we've been able to assemble. It's not
Speaker 1: that they're all big brand, awesome names, which many of
Speaker 1: them are, but they are all of sort of the
Speaker 1: future economy of marketing. These are all human beings who
Speaker 1: understand everything we are talking about on this podcast right now,
Speaker 1: and they do it. That's why the marketing flywheel can
Speaker 1: actually happen. TikTok's a unique example because it's such a
Speaker 1: gigantic global platform and there's so much happening to create
Speaker 1: culture every minute, but the same can be sort of
Speaker 1: done for so many brands and so many categories, and
Speaker 1: one by one we're proving that. So talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about data as it relates to strategy, because so
Speaker 1: much of what we've seen in the headlines in our
Speaker 1: industry is thinking about your tech stack, your data stack
Speaker 1: as being means to find an audience, right when I
Speaker 1: think about the world of programmatic and addressable, But very
Speaker 1: rarely in this industry are we privy to the conversation
Speaker 1: of data science as it relates to creative optimization in
Speaker 1: the work, not the delivery of it in the work.
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a great question because I think
Speaker 1: the thing that's so often missed on the kind of
Speaker 1: Apple location of data to advertising is this reality that
Speaker 1: bad advertising and badly targeted advertising is paid for by
Speaker 1: the audience. Right, that's just a tax that you had
Speaker 1: to pay when they showed like Ross's kids are, you know,
Speaker 1: junior high school in high school, when somebody shows him
Speaker 1: a Pamper's ad that he pays for, that it didn't
Speaker 1: fund the content he was watching and they wasted his time.
Speaker 1: And so not showing Ross that Pampers at his service, um,
Speaker 1: showing Ross an ad for a product that I thinks
Speaker 1: unless you tell me otherwise, Showing Ross an ad for
Speaker 1: a product that he's genuinely interested in in a category
Speaker 1: that he's exploring. I'm not talking about retargeting, but like
Speaker 1: that's intuitively applicable to Ross's life. That is informative, that
Speaker 1: is funny, that is joyful, that's that's not a tax
Speaker 1: on Ross's attention, that's additive to the experience. And so
Speaker 1: what we try and do is stay in that zone.
Speaker 1: And like I sometimes I do get excited as like
Speaker 1: a nerd about you know, all the things we can
Speaker 1: learn from all of the signal that's coming out of
Speaker 1: our lives. I also I want to be really measured
Speaker 1: as a human being about the question of how would
Speaker 1: I feel about that the application of that whether or
Speaker 1: not it's legally obtained, whether or not it's gdp R compliant, Like,
Speaker 1: how would I feel about the application of that data
Speaker 1: point to what's happening in my media consumption experience right now?
Speaker 1: I hear you. I think that's awesome. I think you
Speaker 1: guys are setting up for a post cookie world, which
Speaker 1: I don't actually think a lot of companies, at least
Speaker 1: a lot of cmos are not thinking about yet. Unquestionably,
Speaker 1: we actually just did a project in the publishers side
Speaker 1: of our business for one of the largest publishers on
Speaker 1: the planet that I want that I'm on name here.
Speaker 1: That was Cookieless World. That was basically, how do you
Speaker 1: build a smart and virtuous ad business um and how
Speaker 1: do you part anticipate as a platform of scale in
Speaker 1: a cookuous world. So the people on that side are
Speaker 1: starting to think about it, But I agree that wave
Speaker 1: hasn't really hit the cmos yet. They're like, they're gonna
Speaker 1: get pulled into it, and I'm glad we're on the
Speaker 1: forefront of it, but it's not sort of broadly out
Speaker 1: there yet. So what is known want to be known for? Like,
Speaker 1: what is the influence you want to have on this
Speaker 1: industry short term? Long term? I'll tell you there are
Speaker 1: two things. UM. So they're like there's the part of
Speaker 1: me that's just excited about seeing the alchemy of you know,
Speaker 1: ardent science in like a real partnership of equals UM
Speaker 1: in doing this stuff and breaking down some of the
Speaker 1: barriers in the way that people when professionals talk to
Speaker 1: each other like it's a real thing and we shouldn't,
Speaker 1: you know, Like people are bigger than those boxes of
Speaker 1: data scientists and creative director and that's that's just an
Speaker 1: amazing thing to watch and to watch happen in the
Speaker 1: world of modern marketing as people get more fluent and
Speaker 1: more dynamic in how they use this stuff. There's also
Speaker 1: the competitive oppositional like grumpy business person in UM and
Speaker 1: I get incredibly frustrated when I see structures in place
Speaker 1: that are self serving and designed to impede the intellectual
Speaker 1: metabolism of an environment like this. And I think unintentionally,
Speaker 1: but over many, many decades, we've created a structure in
Speaker 1: the traditional media planning and buying environment that deliberately holds
Speaker 1: back the evolution of the industry and and the passion
Speaker 1: that I had for like going all in, Like guess what, like,
Speaker 1: you own a data science and analytics company in you
Speaker 1: don't need like nobody said you should really merge with
Speaker 1: a creative agency, right, Like That's like that's everybody wants
Speaker 1: to be a data science and analytics company in for
Speaker 1: all the wrong reasons. But that's that's like a good
Speaker 1: place to be. And the thing that I think made
Speaker 1: me and all the other partners in that company want
Speaker 1: to go all in on this was having the deep
Speaker 1: experience we had on the publisher side seeing all the
Speaker 1: amazing investments publishers and platforms are making to expose their
Speaker 1: inventory and novel ways, and then also on the on
Speaker 1: the client side seeing next generation marketers like Ross talked
Speaker 1: about making massive strides to do things differently and in
Speaker 1: a smarter way, in a more efficient way, and then
Speaker 1: watching this thing just get stuck because the economic models
Speaker 1: for how these transactions get handled and processed are broken.
Speaker 1: Look like when I was working at Viacom with an
Speaker 1: incredible group of people who are trying to do things
Speaker 1: a different way and trying to bring media out into
Speaker 1: the marketplace in a different way. And and the whole problem, though,
Speaker 1: is if they go transparent, If the platforms and publishers
Speaker 1: are transparent and advanced and integrated, and they expose their
Speaker 1: inventory brank banks with real time discoverable pricing, which even
Speaker 1: TV companies do now for television, and you've got data savvy,
Speaker 1: aggressive marketers on the other side, like, how do I
Speaker 1: make money as a media buying platform? Like I'll tell
Speaker 1: you how we make money. We say, oh, that's cool,
Speaker 1: Like we have incredible data scientists. We're happy to have
Speaker 1: them support your team, work with our creative folks. Optimize
Speaker 1: the ship out of this not by not by telling
Speaker 1: you you can't buy it on your own, not by
Speaker 1: telling the upfront scary. The upfront is so scary you
Speaker 1: can't go in there. We have to value and so
Speaker 1: like that passion for adding actual, real hard value to
Speaker 1: this ecosystem made us realize that, like, you have to
Speaker 1: have all these things together, You've got to really do
Speaker 1: it right and and it's all or an nothing. We
Speaker 1: need to be the place where the best people on
Speaker 1: the planet come to do the best work of their lives.
Speaker 1: How are you training talent? How are you training future marketers?
Speaker 1: That's hard. In fact, I think it's one of our
Speaker 1: greatest challenges because it's really difficult for us to recruit
Speaker 1: as you can imagine the kind of talent that's required
Speaker 1: as at this level from other agencies. We do a
Speaker 1: lot of recruiting out of the top colleges and universities
Speaker 1: and you know post doc programs in the world. Um.
Speaker 1: Many of the people who come and work and known
Speaker 1: just aren't from this industry, and the perspective and the
Speaker 1: brilliance that they bring is what's sort of rejuvenating everything. UM.
Speaker 1: And then you know, world class creative talent and strategic
Speaker 1: talent like hard to find and incredibly in demand. UM.
Speaker 1: But but we we've been lucky so far in that
Speaker 1: we've built a culture that people want to be part of.
Speaker 1: So if you think about every new person that joins
Speaker 1: our company, they're sort of recoding the d N a
Speaker 1: person by person that's Adam by Adam right, and they're
Speaker 1: adding us their own apps to this operating system and
Speaker 1: they're making it better. And that's sort of happening now
Speaker 1: at a pace that I don't know that we could
Speaker 1: have imagined a year ago, especially given you know, how
Speaker 1: is gone. But We've been very fortunate, and I think
Speaker 1: now the most important thing is healthy growth. What do
Speaker 1: you both think it takes to break through going into
Speaker 1: I think Ross and I and and Mark and Brad
Speaker 1: and all the you know, creatives and scientists at talk
Speaker 1: about this a lot, and we talk about it in
Speaker 1: the context of some of our values right around sort
Speaker 1: of authenticity, UM and honesty. There's no doubt and we
Speaker 1: we recently you know, you talked about we feel like
Speaker 1: I felt like there was a real UM has been
Speaker 1: a real hard reset in the culture and and there
Speaker 1: are a lot like a lot of things have changed,
Speaker 1: need to change, will change UM coming out of this experience,
Speaker 1: and I'm an optimist about where it all ends. But
Speaker 1: we also felt like we needed to reset and put
Speaker 1: our finger back on the pulse of what was happening
Speaker 1: in the world. So we ran this huge self funded
Speaker 1: study of the human condition in UM that we just recently.
Speaker 1: What did it say? It said that in a in
Speaker 1: a sort of a universal experience and phenomenon, it's hitting
Speaker 1: different people very differently. UM and UH. The kinds of
Speaker 1: things that are UH, that are allowing some people to
Speaker 1: survive and thrive are not the things you think, it's
Speaker 1: not your economics standing. Um, it's not even necessarily your
Speaker 1: career um or your position. Um. It looked to us
Speaker 1: through this sort of qualitative and quantitative segmentation that it
Speaker 1: had to do with your relationships, your strong ties, your
Speaker 1: relationships with people in your life, your sense of purpose,
Speaker 1: and your sense of place and connection to your community.
Speaker 1: And that all makes sense, right when you break it
Speaker 1: out like that, that that all makes sense. But it wasn't
Speaker 1: necessarily how we were lensing, and it wasn't how our
Speaker 1: clients we're seeing it. It wasn't about the tropes of
Speaker 1: in extraordinary times, right, And there's a lot of deeper
Speaker 1: data there too, But but those things all struck us
Speaker 1: as like foundational human authentic building blocks of who you
Speaker 1: are and why you are and so first and foremost
Speaker 1: who we're trying to ask ourselves those questions for any
Speaker 1: creative it's like, does this is this real? Does this
Speaker 1: speak to anyone? I think you know you always want
Speaker 1: to do that in the process, but I think it's
Speaker 1: like it's twice as important right now to get back
Speaker 1: to for any given brand, like what is your purpose?
Speaker 1: What is your place in the lives of your audience,
Speaker 1: your consumers, your constituency um and how do you want
Speaker 1: to talk to those people. Alexa hit this home in
Speaker 1: our Malcolm Gladwell episode and referencing David versus Goliath scenario
Speaker 1: of not losing sight of those relationships with our consumer
Speaker 1: and what matters to them. And I'm gonna throw this
Speaker 1: back to your partner, Ross, because I've had the really
Speaker 1: great honor of getting to know Ross a few years
Speaker 1: ago and talking to him and understanding when he was
Speaker 1: building Blackbird that and Ross, you correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: but you were always in the pursuit of truth, and
Speaker 1: as a marketer, I think maybe that's the that's the
Speaker 1: whole point. You bring up a great point, and it's
Speaker 1: it's sort of an extension of what Kerment was just
Speaker 1: saying that, like that that is sort of the the
Speaker 1: dark side of what we're learning about ourselves as a society,
Speaker 1: especially here in America, is that like, there is no
Speaker 1: Laura and Alexa. Right, there's Laura and there's Alexa, and
Speaker 1: you happen to do this show together, but the truth
Speaker 1: is so different, or maybe just a little different, but
Speaker 1: it's different for each of you. And so if I
Speaker 1: want to reach your heart and make a connection. If
Speaker 1: I want to change what you think, if I want
Speaker 1: to get you to turn right when you're normally going
Speaker 1: to turn left, I actually have to find the central
Speaker 1: human truth of you. And I can't rely, as I
Speaker 1: did before, on my own bias on shallow punditry, on
Speaker 1: assumptions about who you are. Because you're two white women
Speaker 1: of a certain age who live in the East Coasts,
Speaker 1: and that's what we used to do. We actually did
Speaker 1: that for decades. We cannot afford to waste the marketing
Speaker 1: dollars on that kind of carelessness and waste the time
Speaker 1: and attention of that audience, of that audience, when the
Speaker 1: tools are all available to us. They are now at
Speaker 1: our finger trips. There is no more excuse for not
Speaker 1: knowing that. I think we mic drop that. So we'll
Speaker 1: start with current. Because Karrent has never played the game.
Speaker 1: Kerrent killed by d I Y. I think you've heard
Speaker 1: it from me a few times, Like I would get
Speaker 1: rid of anybody out there who has gotten themselves boxed
Speaker 1: into a corner where they're where they're fighting against progress
Speaker 1: in this industry, where they're pushing back on efficiency and
Speaker 1: opportunity in in progress UM and that that's not that's
Speaker 1: not one company, and that's not one category. But like
Speaker 1: in any category, there's a bunch of UM. So let's
Speaker 1: get rid of them because like that, we don't have
Speaker 1: time and and and the clients deserve better. I'll tell
Speaker 1: you what I think we've talked about. We feel like
Speaker 1: we can and should buy doesn't sound like the right word,
Speaker 1: but but but who we want to go find and
Speaker 1: partner with and bring in. We think that there's outside
Speaker 1: of the US, there's a bunch of tremendous creative assets,
Speaker 1: creative companies out there who are doing beautiful, amazing work
Speaker 1: in each of their regions and countries, and who are
Speaker 1: also increasingly trying to scratch the data action Like who
Speaker 1: could be incredible additions to our team, incredible extensions of
Speaker 1: our DNA as Ross said UM as we serve more
Speaker 1: and more global clients, right, so getting into local markets
Speaker 1: with best in class creative for those markets I think
Speaker 1: makes sense for us. And what I want to keep
Speaker 1: d I y NG is the process and the culture
Speaker 1: that connects this thing together. And you know, we talk
Speaker 1: a lot about the operating system of our clients, but
Speaker 1: also they an operating system and a belief system for ourselves.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing we need to never stop building it.
Speaker 1: Ross killed by d I y I'm gonna kill hate.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna buy time. I'm gonna build empathy, Ross Kern,
Speaker 1: known dot is. If people want to get in touch
Speaker 1: with you to remix data, science and creativity, how do
Speaker 1: they get in touch with you? Hello at known dot
Speaker 1: is and we will say hello back, Ross Kern. Poets
Speaker 1: of progress? Did you know that I have been for
Speaker 1: for years since I first met Ross, I've been calling
Speaker 1: him a business poet. Here is a business poet. I mean, Ross,
Speaker 1: come on, give us something, Ross, just something to close
Speaker 1: the episode with something from your book. Let's put it
Speaker 1: a little plug here. Ross is a published poet. The
Speaker 1: cop who rides alone, Ross Martin. It started to thunder.
Speaker 1: I began to wonder why do we mow our lawns?
Speaker 1: Then it hit me. The nice lines are pretty when
Speaker 1: they wake up freshly cut it dawn. Maybe they want
Speaker 1: to keep growing, but man's too ignorant to stop mowing,
Speaker 1: So lawns are cut each day because man doesn't care
Speaker 1: about cutting nature's hair, even if nature doesn't want it
Speaker 1: that way. I love it Did you write that when
Speaker 1: you were fifteen? Yeah? Did I do that in the
Speaker 1: last episode? No, but I remember you talking and he's
Speaker 1: always triing that out. I only got one poem and
Speaker 1: I was fifteen. Can and order, Yes, this opportunity less
Speaker 1: opportunity Our data side just five out of six. Data
Speaker 1: Side just will tell you that that is the best title.
Speaker 1: Can we just say congratulations on this season and this
Speaker 1: is the podcast. So we're just so grateful to be
Speaker 1: part of you your world here on a small part,
Speaker 1: but thank you so much. You will be coming back.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys, to Laura coming out of this conversation.
Speaker 1: The things that shine through for me one, we as
Speaker 1: marketers and especially cmos, tend to continue to look at
Speaker 1: the vanity as you call them, vanity metrics. Right, So,
Speaker 1: what's happening on your website, what's happening in your purchase funnel,
Speaker 1: what's happening da da da da. But those are surface metrics,
Speaker 1: that's surface data and analytics, rather than having creatives and
Speaker 1: data scientists briefed together, starting together and going to find
Speaker 1: out what could be known. It's interesting in how Ross
Speaker 1: and currenter positioning their value prop right, and that it's
Speaker 1: less so about um one or the other, but how
Speaker 1: these two things work together, the ability to understand patterns
Speaker 1: using data and breakdown at the individual levels. What I
Speaker 1: took away down to the individual level what creative serves
Speaker 1: Alexa versus what creative serves Laura and I think marrying
Speaker 1: that you know this idea of we think so much
Speaker 1: in the creative spaces art director meets copywriter, but is
Speaker 1: the new critical pairing data scientists and creative director. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that. And when you think about designing, designing
Speaker 1: both product designing, designing both products and campaign or message
Speaker 1: right against triggers that are about the needs that are
Speaker 1: filling the needs and understanding the triggers of the consumer first,
Speaker 1: designing that upfront that should be your brief with a
Speaker 1: bunch of hypotheses, a bunch of opportunities right to test.
Speaker 1: And too often I think, you know and Ross kind
Speaker 1: of hit on this too often. I think we talk
Speaker 1: about campaigns and there that that alone is something that
Speaker 1: starts and ends. And what Ross and Kurn were saying
Speaker 1: is that this just keeps going, This just keeps learning.
Speaker 1: And in order to do that, you have to get
Speaker 1: out in the market. You have to actually have a
Speaker 1: hook to start reeling in. If you don't have that
Speaker 1: hook out there and you're not testing multiple iterations, I'm
Speaker 1: not just talking about messaging and creative, I'm talking about ideas.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about products. And so is the question that
Speaker 1: the CMO becomes more of a growth marketer or is
Speaker 1: the question that the CMO becomes more of a product person.
Speaker 1: Is that where we're headed. Yeah, it's interesting when you
Speaker 1: think about the word programmatic. So much of the emphasis
Speaker 1: has been on the automatic part of that word. But
Speaker 1: really what I heard is using data science to really unpack,
Speaker 1: unbundle the journey, really think about the message that's going
Speaker 1: to resonate in that journey, and really thinking about programming
Speaker 1: the automation versus automating the programming all of that, you know.
Speaker 1: And on that note, one of the things that Kern said,
Speaker 1: and he kind of said it quietly, right, it was
Speaker 1: like a point was about sequencing. We don't actually think
Speaker 1: about sequencing enough. This is about design up front. Designing
Speaker 1: up front the path you're going to take someone, and
Speaker 1: it has multiple iterations, and it has multiple turning points.
Speaker 1: They could take someone down depending on their behavior, depending
Speaker 1: on where they are in their interesting consideration, and I
Speaker 1: think that you know, the industry is separated the tools, right,
Speaker 1: the data science and the analytics and the metrics and
Speaker 1: point KPIs and those types of things with good creative
Speaker 1: but those things, as Ross and Kern said, they go
Speaker 1: hand in hand. Well yeah, I mean so much of
Speaker 1: what I've experienced throughout my career is the creative leading
Speaker 1: that messaging and then using the data science to target
Speaker 1: audiences right, to go out and find the audience to
Speaker 1: deliver that message. But by pairing those two things together
Speaker 1: from the onset, you start thinking less like a planner
Speaker 1: and more like a programmer designing the journey versus planning it.
Speaker 1: Kern really got to that when he was talking about
Speaker 1: bad advertising is like attacks on the consumer. They thought
Speaker 1: that was a fascinating That was a great way of
Speaker 1: saying it. It was a great way of saying it.
Speaker 1: And I think, so it's less of people been paying
Speaker 1: with their time. People are paying with their time, And
Speaker 1: I think it's less about what you want to sell
Speaker 1: someone and more about how are you reaching someone and
Speaker 1: making sure that there's value and what you are selling them.
Speaker 1: There's like this this thing going off in my brain,
Speaker 1: going wait a minute. If you look at a standard
Speaker 1: reporting dashboard in media, one of the metrics you will
Speaker 1: often find is time spent. But we don't measure the
Speaker 1: sentiment of the time in so I may capture somebody's
Speaker 1: attention for thirty sixty seconds, but was that a good experience?
Speaker 1: What was that time well spent? Right? So central question,
Speaker 1: what do you want to be known for? That is
Speaker 1: the question? And speaking of questions, Alexa, We're going to
Speaker 1: be introducing a new segment on Atlantia called The Burning
Speaker 1: Question with Kindred CEO Ian Schaefer so Atlanta. Each week
Speaker 1: we're gonna be teaming up with Kindred to pose a
Speaker 1: provocative question to our listeners that explores how popular culture
Speaker 1: movements affect brand decisions. And we're gonna be asking those
Speaker 1: questions on Twitter and then some of the responses from
Speaker 1: the Atlantia community will be read on air and discussed
Speaker 1: in the podcast in addition to having I and share
Speaker 1: his perspective. So week one question has the fear of
Speaker 1: cancel culture lad brands and the people behind them to
Speaker 1: develop faux food. Fear of fffing up is the appeal
Speaker 1: to everyone, the new appeal to no one. This popular culture,
Speaker 1: Eat Corporate Culture for breakfast, tweet at Atlantia Podcasts and
Speaker 1: see c I Shaefer Ian Shaeffer to get into the conversation,
Speaker 1: and we may have you on one of our next
Speaker 1: episodes to discuss Laura hit it with the list of
Speaker 1: all of our friends and family at I Heart who
Speaker 1: have been so good to us and helped us get
Speaker 1: back on air. Big thank you to Bob Connal, Carter, Andy,
Speaker 1: Eric Gayle Val, Michael Jen. We appreciate you. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for this opportunity. We'll see you in two weeks.