WEBVTT - In a Marketing World that is Known 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:14.360 What's up. I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristen. Welcome 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:16.960 back everyone. We've got two great guests on the show. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.200 Kern Shearson, chairman and CEO of Known, and Ross Martin, 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.880 President and Chief Experience Officer of Known. So, Laura, we've 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.320 never actually talked to, and I don't know if there 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:34.599 is an agency or a modern marketing company that exists 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:40.280 today that is truly equal parts data, strategy, and creative. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.280 We've had holding companies by data companies, We've had data 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:49.320 analytics companies by creative agencies, and they've become kind of 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.559 tacked on in parts of a whole. But really what 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.960 Known is doing is they've taken those three components that 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:06.039 are equal experts and truly created one agency that works 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:11.959 together on equal parts to create and bring the best 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.840 creative work and the best kind of need based marketing 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.640 to their clients and their consumers. Yeah, Alex, I think 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.560 it's an interesting business model that Ross and Kerner after 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:29.199 in bringing data and creativity to the center together. And 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:33.320 I think coming into the conversation with Ross and Kern 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.360 was really kind of posing a question or or had 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.560 a question of well, who wins in a tiebreaker and 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:41.559 you're actually going to hear this in the show. Does 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.800 does data lead or does creativity lead? And even as 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.400 I think over the last few episodes, we've had this 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.240 sort of tension of well, is it numbers or is 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.680 it gut? I think it's interesting to think about this 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.559 as you listen to the conversation is this an ant 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.960 or is this an oor situation? And I think this converse, 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.320 Asian has been one that the industry has been having 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.520 for years now, and we've been having on this show 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.560 for for three seasons, yeah, and the last ten fifteen years. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:12.000 And I think that Ross and Kern are onto something 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:17.440 that is different, the details of which and the nuance 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.119 of which comes through in this conversation. So with that, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:33.720 we'll be right back. We are back at Landia with 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.360 exciting partners from yield Mo. We are here with Lisa 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:40.560 Bradner GM of Analytics and Teddy John d E, head 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.040 of Product. So we're here to talk with Lisa and 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.560 Teddy about making attention actionable over the next four episodes 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.799 of Atlantia. Let's start from the top. What is yield Mo. 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:55.800 Yield Mo is a next generation marketplace powered by attention 0:02:55.840 --> 0:03:00.760 analytics superior formats and real time data. So Lisa would 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:02.760 love for you to expand on what yield mo does 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.160 and share with our listeners how yield mo thinks about 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.400 and approaches the market. Well, I think you have to 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.240 start with you know the vision everybody has for advertising, right, 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.919 we have this perfect vision. We're advertising flows like water. 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.680 The right people see your ad, they get the right creative, 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:23.000 they're inspired, they go by your product. Every impression is 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:27.359 valuable and it just flows right. Doesn't quite work like that, 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.840 never has, But I think you know Programmatic. When that launched, 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.600 we were really trying to say, how do we connect 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.360 this ecosystem and make everything flow? With programmatic, We've spent 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.040 all the time talking about the pipes, like it's so cool. 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.120 We can deliver a lot more impressions, a lot faster, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.400 we can reach your entire audience. But you know what, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.280 if you're put in sewage in those pipes, you've just 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:54.280 wasted a whole lot of money really really quickly. So 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.360 I like to step back and say, all right, great, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.880 we've built the infrastructure, we're great blumber, but let's talk 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.800 about what we're putting through those pipes. Let's make sure 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.480 it's quality. Let's make sure it's clean, let's make sure 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.480 everybody knows that it's fraud free and can be trusted, 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.960 and let's make sure we're not poisoning our own ecosystem. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.520 What do you when you talk about quality? I think 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:21.200 that's such an interesting part of the conversation. Quality is 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.440 a great question. Right. As an industry, we've been sort 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.080 of stuck in lowest common denominator. Right, we talked about viewability, 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:28.880 and we talk about fraud free or you were seen 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:30.840 by a human not a box. But if you even 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:34.000 look into the definition of view ability, it is a really, 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.719 really really split second of moment where it's on the page. 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.159 It's not exactly something I think that any brand person 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.640 would say, Yeah, my brand showed up great. But it's 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.680 a place to start, and it was a common denominator 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.560 we could all rally around. But the reason we look 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.360 at attention at yield mode in addition to those signals 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.080 is we want to go a layer deeper to say, 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.480 all right, we know it was seen by a human being, 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.839 we know it was on the screen, and how long 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.920 did they care, were they interested? Did they signal that 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.000 to them it was a quality? Add experience and something 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:12.560 they wanted to engage further in. And the better job 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.839 we can do of matching the person, the device, the impression, 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.920 the time, and the creative the higher quality that add 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:23.039 experience is going to be for everybody. So how is 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:28.599 yield MO helping the industry navigate the pipes? We have 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:34.720 a marketplace with highly curated, high quality inventory, but it's 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.400 not a walled garden, right, anybody can play and the 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.760 data goes in, the data goes out. We are working 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:44.640 across the ecosystem to find the highest quality inventory, bring 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:49.359 our formats and our data to that and create a 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.359 really really great brand experience that's good for the user 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.480 tou that's in the context of what they're looking at, 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.280 and bring all that together to make sure that we're 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:03.920 delivering quality experiences and that the money we're spending is 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.120 going to quality publishers. Teddy, what are your thoughts on 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:12.240 AD experiences? Those two words actually don't typically go together, 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:16.560 but the meaning when you put those words together around 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:22.479 actually creating an AD experience that someone wants and potentially 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.960 even anticipated right or needed, I think actually does create 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.800 an experience. How are you guys thinking about that? Well, 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.520 that's the idea behind quality advertising is can you deliver 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.560 an ad experience to a user that actually influences and 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.880 allows them to make a brand decision. And that's what 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:42.480 we try to do it. You'll most we try to 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.760 You know, there's a great technology out there. You can 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.760 buy ads and serve them anywhere, but what is actually 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:52.719 making an impact? And we focus on trying to allow 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.760 marketers to seed at with with our investment and attention 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.640 and so they can quickly decide, well, this is working 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.400 and this isn't You do you both talk about the 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.920 kind of green spaces, what i'll call green shoots. Are 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.680 you working with brands do you identify through these different 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:13.040 ad experiences new white spaces and green shoot areas for 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.160 their products for audience development? And if so, how are 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.640 you thinking about that? I love this notion of green shoots. Right. 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.160 I've always said when you work in marketing, you're always dating, 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.560 You're never married. Right. Every time you show up it's 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.920 a chance to impress your customer and you never get 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:30.960 to hang out in the catch and sweatpants. Right, It's 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.200 like you've got to prove yourself every day. But you know, 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.239 I think that if you think about those fast moving 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.280 media metrics. If you can be really agile with the 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.560 ad experience and when with the data, you can recognize 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.960 when a green shoot is happening. And I think as marketers, 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.480 we've always gone top down, right, here are my segments, 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:51.200 here are the people I'm talking to. But you know, 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.880 we saw this in the pandemic. People who hadn't bought 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.520 certain brands in twenty years all of a sudden ripped 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.960 them off the shelf. So as a brand person, you've 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.840 always have to be listening for that surprise signal that 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.720 signals an opportunity you may not be thinking about. And 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.760 our agile data structure allows our brands to work with 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:14.240 us to do just that. Lisa Bradner, Teddy Jwadi from 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.360 yield Mo, thank you for being our partners, Thank you 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.440 for coming on at Landia, Thank you for having us, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.600 and we are back at Landia. Welcoming back to guests. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.160 Curren Jeerson, Chairman and CEO of Known, and Ross Martin, 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:40.000 president and Chief Experience Officer of Known, Welcome, guys, welcome, 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.160 thank you great to be here, so good. So the 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:48.200 first question everyone wants to know is what is known? 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:55.079 Known came together out of three? Really? Uh, leaving companies. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.079 Company I found it almost twenty years ago is a 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.800 data science and advanced analytics company me UM. It's called 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.280 it was called Cheerson Associates, which is my last name. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.120 So you can see I was not on the creative side. 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.199 You don't you don't want to hire me for naming. 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.080 I think I added the associates so people would think 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.679 I had associates. But that was about his That was 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:18.200 about as creative as a god. But this was a 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.760 company that was doing data science before it was called 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.280 data science. For a lot of the big tech companies 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.959 are our clients for twenty years, like Google and Microsoft 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:32.319 and Amazon. UM. So tons of PhDs and just number 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:37.720 crunctures and the other components come out of the brilliant 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:42.760 creative mind and strategic mind of Ross Martin, who ran 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.760 a company called Blackbird that I think somehow he must 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:47.319 have been strategic because he got you guys to talk 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.679 about it well two years ago. He was with us 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.040 two years ago talking about Blackbird. Let him back in. 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.319 I want him back in. I want current to continue 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.120 talking about knowing. But I will just stop for one 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.320 second for an ad for Atlanta to say when I 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.400 was originally on your podcast. I think I got seventeen calls, 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.200 so I think I owe you a chunk of cash. 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.480 And anybody ever, anybody who ever shows up on this podcast, 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.520 if you make it this far, you're good. Like Malcolm Gladwell, congratulations, 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:18.760 you have now made it and you have a chance 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.160 at the same kind of career that I have had 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.320 over the last few years. Because I was on this 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:29.160 and they add, you were the first guest to do 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.800 live poetry on Atlantia. So Kern, I hear that you 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:39.679 may try to want I may, I may so fastinuing 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:44.040 with known U, the third component of this, the third heat, 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.280 if you will, came out of a group called Stunt Creative, 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.360 which is really a best in class creative and production 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:55.160 studio at l A. Again you know, twenty years in 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.719 the business, won every award on the planet, and the 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:02.920 unifying belief that brought us together was this idea that 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.520 art and science needed to live together in a real way, 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:13.080 not in a big box consultancy buys global creative agency way, 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.320 and um, you know, we felt like there was a 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:21.240 place for these capabilities to sit around the table as equals, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:27.160 as friends, as partners, um, where everybody had a superpower, 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.680 but we all wanted to work together to create the 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.320 right outcome for our clients. So kar and put that 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.600 into practice, right because you're doing a tremendous amount of 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.000 work with TikTok right now seeing some of the work 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.400 you're doing with the A n A around see her. 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:42.800 So if you look at the spectrum of work that 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:44.920 you have, the body of work that's out in the market, 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:50.280 when you bring together those three pillars data, strategy, creativity, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.199 how is that manifesting? It's a great question, um So, 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:58.040 So I think the the process. You know, what you 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.800 see is creative, and what you see is creative that 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.000 you hopefully remember, um And that really is evocative, and 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.600 that is hitting you in a place and at a 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:13.680 time that makes sense, right, and that that those other 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.440 aspects are not what people remember, but they're part of 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:22.000 our process. So the place we like to start is 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.480 with the fundamental questions. And this goes back to the name. 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.680 You know, like we wouldn't be in the marketing and 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:30.400 advertising industry if we hadn't a long and hired about 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.880 the seven different meanings of our name. But that you know, 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:39.040 the first question is like what know yourself as a brand? Right, Well, 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:40.920 what do you stand for? What do you mean in 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.720 the world? Know your customers? Uh, why do they care 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.040 about you? What do they think, feel and believe about you? 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.920 And what do they need to know to understand whether 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:53.959 or not you fit into their life? And then how 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:55.840 do you make that know? How do you bring that 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.520 to life insights out, emotion and in a way that 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:02.199 it creates a real emotional fonts and though that that 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.800 is the process. So like when we sit down, whether 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.079 it's with a client, TikTok or see her or vivent 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.520 or any of these or memorial sunkettering, right, it's those 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.760 questions in that order. Um, what is this brand, what's 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:16.760 happening to it? How does it exist in the world, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.280 How do we find the right audiences, how do we 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.960 connect with them in the times and places and ways 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.240 that makes sense? How do we bring that into being 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:30.800 in a way that's beautiful and evocative and and it's 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:32.800 great you know that people see our creative on the 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.400 world and remember it. But the process that gets it 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.880 there is really what we think drives a lot of 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.559 the impact for our clients because we're not wasting impressions, 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.719 we're not wasting the audience's time. So that's that's sort 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.480 of the science side that's harder to see and touch, 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.520 but is really part of why we think this stuff 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.880 works so hard for our clients. So ross last time 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.000 you were on the show, UM, we were talking all 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:01.800 things Blackbird. How did Blackbird come to work with Current? 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.520 So Blackbird came to work with Kern and also with 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.280 Jeff Kingsley, who is the chief operating officer of Sheerson 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.160 and now the president and CEO of Known, and also 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.400 came to work with Brad Roth and Mark Feldstein from 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.720 Stun because back in the day by Coom, when I 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:25.120 was running marketing, UM, I was their clients. Sheerson Associates 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.800 and Stun were like my secret weapons, and so I 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.040 knew very well what those two companies were capable of 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.560 and how fantastic they were they you know, even if 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.600 other people didn't know that yet. UM, and I was 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:40.960 making a living on the work they were doing. Um. 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.360 The truth is Blackbirds, as you know, it was going well. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.800 It was two two and a half years old, and 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.240 I loved it. But every once in a while, or 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.640 like once in your lifetime, there's a generational opportunity to 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.440 do something really unique. And special, not just disruptive, but 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:03.680 game changing. So the hypothesis of known represented a generational opportunity. 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.400 If what we believe to be true UM and possible 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.880 could actually be achieved, then this this wouldn't be sort 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:13.880 of just a good business opportunity, but it would be 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.320 a game changing UM I guess inflection point for how 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.480 marketing gets done in the twenty one century. And I 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.400 know it sounds like I'm vastly overstating that, and maybe 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.480 I'm a couple of years ahead of other people getting 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.720 what we're trying to do, and it probably sounds a 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:31.000 little arrogant, But in the beginning, we weren't sure, right, 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:35.080 So we put these companies together and we started to 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.640 try to go to market together as a unified set 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.320 of capabilities. And think of it almost like as a 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.720 moment of Pangaea where the continents come back together on Earth, 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.840 when the marketing capabilities and advertising capabilities that never should 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:53.680 have been separated are actually unified and there's no fidelity 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:58.160 loss between them. When that happens, you actually returned to 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.560 being UM. Not is efficient and effective and transparent, but 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.560 you can actually align the goals of your company with 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.520 the business interests of your clients. And when you can 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:13.080 do that, then you provide the first meaningful alternative to 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:17.040 the holding company model in a long long time. That's 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.240 the opportunity that I saw. That's the opportunity that we saw, 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.960 And more importantly, it's it's the opportunity that dozens of 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:28.400 clients saw and and and really pulled us together um 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.960 to provide a comprehensive set of marketing services for them. 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.320 So a lot of holding companies would say the same thing, 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:41.560 what is setting known apart? What I think is setting 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:47.080 us apart is truly best in class in every discipline. 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.240 Right In some cases, and I was kind of joking 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.120 about it before, you've got companies that are pretty good 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:58.160 at data and analytics and process and technology trying to 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:04.280 glue on creative capability. And now you know exactly how 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.440 that relationship works. You know who is the step child 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.520 of who, and who drives? You know who's got the 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.480 bigger revenue line and what bread is butter were right, 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.480 like we all know, um. And in other cases, you've 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:21.720 got a creative shop or a traditional media buying company 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.600 hiring a couple of people who maybe have an undergrad 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.480 degree in math or economics and no a little are 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.360 or sequel and they're like, no, we have data capabilities, 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.160 or even buying a data company, which by the way, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:41.120 is like the most ridiculous thing for supposedly impartial agency 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.240 to be doing. But leaving that to the side for 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:45.800 a second, what we thought was exciting about this in 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.080 kind of the cultural synergy that led up to this 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.880 combination was not just the thesis, not just the business opportunity, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.040 but the cultural synergies and the fact that currently the 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:01.520 top creative director at Known Studios won't stop calling our 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:05.800 chief technology officer to talk about you know, non stochastic 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:11.000 modeling and like creative optimization. It's like, that's happening, that's 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:16.040 actually happening because the creative team is totally gigging out 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.359 on the data. The data scientists, and you know, this 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.400 is also a real, a real different thing. We've got 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:30.840 like postdoctoral PhD data scientists, like actual data scientists who 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.960 extend the analytics capability of clients like Amazon and Microsoft 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:40.119 and Google when they're not working on our advertising clients. 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.000 And that's that's not that's not even in the realm 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:45.639 of firepower at these other agencies and our creatives who 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.880 are making these moments that break culture are also best 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.119 in class and they love each other. And our strategists 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:52.720 are sitting there in the middle of it saying, I 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.240 cannot believe like the weapons that we get to deploy 0:18:55.680 --> 0:19:00.679 both on the inbound customer insight and the creation of 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:07.520 breakthrough storytelling. So who gets the tiebreaker in data versus gut? Well, 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.080 there there isn't one. That's not a that's not like 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.119 it's that's just not the process that we run. The 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.720 like they're not at odds with each other. What happens 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:22.000 is are creative and strategy teams have brilliant ideas, and 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:27.520 as often happens in creative ideation and all the sort 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.560 of like work that leads up to an incredible campaign 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.680 is there are a bunch of things that people love. 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.840 And then there's like that final round of tweaking and 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.480 tuning of like do we alpha this up or down? 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:42.600 Like what's the color mix? How big is the like 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:44.720 how much do we pull into the foreground background? Like 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.720 what you know where? Like how tight is the focus 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:53.480 those things? It turns out you don't have to guess, 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.800 So the gut is all there like that you see 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.399 the heart I would think in our TikTok campaigns, you 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.760 see the heart and see her. You see the heart 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.840 in what everything our studios turns out, and like the 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.359 creative minds at work there, like that's real, that wasn't 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:12.480 computer generated. And then the question is of all the 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:20.879 thousands of different perspectives and backgrounds and sort of the 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.359 constellation of audience out there. Each person is a little 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.960 bit different, each platform is a little bit different. So 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.840 how do I match the absolute best version of the 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:36.200 creative to the right individual audience member based on everything 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.399 I can into it about them in the right place, 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.600 at the right time, in the right format, on the 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:47.080 right platform. That's where data takes creative and like beautiful creative, evocative, 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:50.159 creative and supercharges it. And that's where we see the 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:55.760 results going absolutely crazy. I want to go back to 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.920 something that you said that I think is probably if 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.000 we don't go back to his probably passed over pretty easily. 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:07.760 You have twenty five pH d data scientists and analytics 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:14.600 folks working with Amazon, Google, Microsoft, not on marketing creative. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.679 We have about seventy analytics people working outside of the 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.240 marketing space. I'm just talking about like the what I 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:25.000 was trying to say, is of the of the advanced 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:28.600 degrees working in advertising? These are not people when we like, 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:31.560 you see listings out there and tors when we're not 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.360 trying to you see listings out there for you know, 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:39.400 data scientists or advertising analysts, and they'll say things like, 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:44.439 you know, Excel skills are a must. Excel skills are 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:47.360 not a must, right like they're there there. There are 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.600 profoundly more powerful tools. And so when we when when 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:52.960 we list a position for a data scientists, that's a 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:59.280 person who's coming out of uh typically like a postdoctoral 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:04.679 fellowship up at a leading academic institution, and you know, 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.800 the folks on that team talk about sort of rehabilitating 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:13.280 academics and and helping them find these new careers, you know, 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:17.440 from physics finding looking searching for the ghost particle in 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:22.040 in mild cubic mild blocks of Arctic ice, to trying 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:27.359 to identify audience signals in social and and digital environments. 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.639 And our strategy and our analytics and data science teams 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.679 are beating out their pure play competitors with clients like 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.720 Google and Amazon and Facebook. Can you double down on 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:44.000 the seamlessness of your data scientists talking to your creative leads. 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.879 Is that appairing that we need to see more of 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:51.399 in the market. I think it's the thing that UM, I, 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.440 at the end of the day get most excited about 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.800 in our business. And in this sort of crazy concoction 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:00.840 that that we're delivering, that's what really he got us there, 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:02.720 That's what got us to the point of saying, we 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.360 all have great businesses. Can you give us an example 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:07.879 where like you were in a creative pitch and you 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:10.520 you brought out data scientists and it was like, at 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:14.840 that point, completely unexpected for the narrative of what I'm 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:18.720 assuming brand marketers typically here in a creative pitch. Yeah, look, 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:20.760 it happens all the time. We were I don't want 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:23.320 to name the client, but we were working on a 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:29.240 pretty important campaign that started with a deep dive into 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:35.280 some micro segmentation, and um what we found in the 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:38.000 micro segmentation and the attributes and you've got a data 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:41.520 scientists sort of walking through like these are the drive 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:45.639 this is the driver model of you know, who is 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:49.000 likely to be persuadable of outcome air B or c 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:54.120 um and And what we realized in that was that 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:58.400 the the creative that the client wanted was something that 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.399 was really sort of edgy and sharp and fresh, and 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:04.919 what and what the audience wanted was to be spoken 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:07.879 to an authentic way about values, right like, and you 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:11.439 could see it and it just like it spun the 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.320 creative ideation around, not because that not because it's not 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:17.640 like not because they were being lectured by the data scientists, 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:20.040 but because they were discovering it together, because the data 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:25.160 scientist was surfacing a constellation of attributes and the creatives 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.520 were saying, hold on, that's not what was That's not 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:30.880 what was in the brief at all, Like what you're 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:33.399 telling me? And am I understanding this? Right? Like if 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:37.280 you're saying that it's suburban zip codes and it's you know, 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:42.200 non Apple devices and it's you know, these kinds of demos, 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:44.800 like that's not what they're asking for. Why are we 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.080 doing that? And like you could just feel this this 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:52.520 momentum building and jelling around a different vision of the 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:56.960 opportunity and and the arc of the story that needed 0:24:57.000 --> 0:24:59.520 to be told for this brand that wasn't gonna get 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:02.280 told But wasn't. It wasn't a research report that was 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:05.359 plopped down on a desk, right it was it was 0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:08.359 a live collaboration and and by the way, that goes 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:13.240 in both directions, you know, and I've seen creative teams 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:16.200 working through a pitch and coming back to the scientists 0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:18.480 and saying like, can we test this? Does this feel right? Like? 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.639 How would we start to focus into signals and social 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:25.000 media to understand if I've got the right phrasing here, 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:27.960 the right meme, the right kind of moment and culture 0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:30.760 like is this what it needs to be? Or should 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:32.280 I look over here? Because I can't. I'm weighing these 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.200 two options. And so sometimes it's the refinement. Sometimes it's 0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:37.919 a kind of a revelation. And then I think what 0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:41.600 happens after the fact. We look at the performance of 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:44.320 all these campaigns, even if their brand campaigns. We're running 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:48.359 five seconds snapshots of every exposure that happened in every 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:51.639 five seconds, and what are all of the what's all 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:54.480 the metadata around that? How do we understand that atomic 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:59.840 intersection of creative an audience and every day the path 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:03.320 and matching that happens, which is a collaborative process between 0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:07.040 the creatives and the data scientists together reviewing these five 0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:11.159 second snapshots and reviewing these sort of patterns and trends 0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:14.800 that are coming out leads to a re racking of 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:19.720 some of the really hyper specific nuances of the creative 0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:22.199 as it's happening in each platform and each subsegment. So 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:24.399 they're like, okay, all right, we gotta swap out that 0:26:24.520 --> 0:26:26.800 art because like it's definitely like that stuff is not 0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:31.560 working on Facebook. It's working great on you know, on 0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:34.479 digital display, but we got like and for search, I 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:36.920 feel like this copy right here, let's change that one 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:40.120 word like And then the brainstorming happening with the data 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.680 scientists and the creatives at once, saying why that word, 0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:44.000 what do we think it could be? What do we 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:46.919 think like what is working in other parallel platforms, and 0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:49.200 you know what, like we literally had a moment. We're 0:26:49.240 --> 0:26:53.199 swapping out a single word in digital display, drove the 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:59.480 results of that ad by one word. What you're seeing 0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:04.440 is really exciting to me, and it's actually very different. 0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:11.000 So what people aren't doing. People aren't actually going off 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:16.080 of their web metrics or their basic campaign metrics, or 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:21.440 they've got isolated first party data and analytics. What you're 0:27:21.480 --> 0:27:24.879 doing because you're talking about the whole thing and the 0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:28.520 right stuff at the right time and that's easy to say, 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:31.439 but lots of folks when they're talking about data and analytics, 0:27:31.720 --> 0:27:35.280 they're talking about campaign metrics. And something we talked about 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:41.480 was the hypothesis that more brands, more companies, more marketers 0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:48.400 need to build a multi layer hypothesis hypotheses and run them. 0:27:48.680 --> 0:27:52.400 That's exactly right. The campaign is the beginning right day. 0:27:52.440 --> 0:27:55.120 What if you were to ask me, uh, the night 0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:59.360 before a big campaign launches, like, is this gonna work tomorrow? 0:28:00.000 --> 0:28:02.080 I'll say, I don't know if it's going to work 0:28:02.080 --> 0:28:04.440 tomorrow morning, but I think it has a better chance 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:07.160 of working by mid day or later in the day 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.439 because of what we learned in the morning, right Like, 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:13.439 the very beginning of a persistent optimization loop is the 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:16.400 most exciting time because what you're doing is treating everything 0:28:16.440 --> 0:28:18.920 that's going out in the world as a social experiment 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:22.040 that you get to learn from. And the more quickly 0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:25.760 you can metabolize that information and act on those insights 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:29.800 with the help of machine learning and an AI, the 0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:33.600 more quickly you can optimize. Whether it's the creative, the channel, 0:28:33.720 --> 0:28:38.160 the time, the messaging, the copy itself, the beating algorithm, 0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:42.120 it's all of those. That's why we say, for a 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:45.200 campaign like the one we are about the launch on Sunday, 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:48.080 if you were looking from our control room, you'd see 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:51.240 ten to twenty permutations going out at the same time, 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:53.520 and we're gonna learn a lot from each one of 0:28:53.560 --> 0:28:55.200 them in real time. Can you tell us about the 0:28:55.200 --> 0:28:58.600 campaign that's going out Sunday. Yeah, So we took on 0:28:58.640 --> 0:29:01.080 a new client where the Agency of Credit's Vivint, the 0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:05.760 I V I n T Home security UH company, and 0:29:05.760 --> 0:29:08.600 and it's a smart home company essentially, and you know 0:29:08.680 --> 0:29:12.120 it's it's it's becoming a loud, noisy competitive space, especially 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:15.040 during the pandemic. This is a company that is hot 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:18.760 as hell, like they are performing incredibly well. It's a 0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:24.800 publicly traded company, but current multi multibillion dollar company four 0:29:24.880 --> 0:29:27.640 percent on aided awareness, right like just you just haven't 0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:29.520 heard of it because it is loud, it's noisy out there. 0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:32.760 But but that's about to change. And um, we've got 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:36.400 a really fun campaign or as Ross would say, campaigns 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:39.600 um that that's going to support them out there in 0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:41.240 the world coming up with and there's gonna be some 0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:43.280 time pole placements and I want to come back to 0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:45.960 also like the art of this is not lost. The 0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:49.600 core creative is super funny, you're gonna see it. And 0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:52.600 what's the right sequencing of creative and how do you 0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:59.520 move people from awareness to advocacy to intent? Right like that, 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:02.800 those things, like they're massive differences based on what they 0:30:02.800 --> 0:30:04.880 see in what order, even if all the creatives great, 0:30:05.040 --> 0:30:07.880 what what's what's really really interesting about this moment in 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:11.760 time for Adlandia fans, right because the marketing and advertising 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:15.880 community listens to this podcast religiously. Here's the thing, like 0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:21.200 there we're sort of seeing a bifurcation in the CMO land, right, 0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:24.239 Like there are cmos who are you know, are just 0:30:24.480 --> 0:30:27.320 not ready for this stuff, Like they don't really need 0:30:27.400 --> 0:30:29.920 to care that much and they're just sort of managing 0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:33.600 as they did before. But there's a new breed of 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:38.400 cmos and marketing leadership. For example, you mentioned TikTok. We 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:40.880 couldn't do what we do if if they didn't have 0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:44.200 Nick Trent in that seat leading that team, if they 0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:47.240 didn't have a team that was just excited about the 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:49.880 marriage of art and science as we are. We couldn't 0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:53.160 do it with just any client. And what's fantastic about 0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:55.040 the clients that we've been able to assemble. It's not 0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:57.600 that they're all big brand, awesome names, which many of 0:30:57.640 --> 0:31:01.360 them are, but they are all of sort of the 0:31:01.400 --> 0:31:05.240 future economy of marketing. These are all human beings who 0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:08.880 understand everything we are talking about on this podcast right now, 0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:11.880 and they do it. That's why the marketing flywheel can 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:14.720 actually happen. TikTok's a unique example because it's such a 0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:17.880 gigantic global platform and there's so much happening to create 0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:20.840 culture every minute, but the same can be sort of 0:31:21.040 --> 0:31:24.280 done for so many brands and so many categories, and 0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:27.360 one by one we're proving that. So talk a little 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:30.720 bit about data as it relates to strategy, because so 0:31:30.800 --> 0:31:32.680 much of what we've seen in the headlines in our 0:31:32.720 --> 0:31:35.480 industry is thinking about your tech stack, your data stack 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:38.600 as being means to find an audience, right when I 0:31:38.600 --> 0:31:41.680 think about the world of programmatic and addressable, But very 0:31:41.800 --> 0:31:45.600 rarely in this industry are we privy to the conversation 0:31:45.960 --> 0:31:49.680 of data science as it relates to creative optimization in 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:53.280 the work, not the delivery of it in the work. 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:55.800 So it's a it's a great question because I think 0:31:55.840 --> 0:31:58.320 the thing that's so often missed on the kind of 0:31:59.640 --> 0:32:05.160 Apple location of data to advertising is this reality that 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:10.959 bad advertising and badly targeted advertising is paid for by 0:32:10.960 --> 0:32:14.160 the audience. Right, that's just a tax that you had 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:17.840 to pay when they showed like Ross's kids are, you know, 0:32:18.440 --> 0:32:21.240 junior high school in high school, when somebody shows him 0:32:21.240 --> 0:32:25.200 a Pamper's ad that he pays for, that it didn't 0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:28.760 fund the content he was watching and they wasted his time. 0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:32.479 And so not showing Ross that Pampers at his service, um, 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:35.800 showing Ross an ad for a product that I thinks 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:39.080 unless you tell me otherwise, Showing Ross an ad for 0:32:39.120 --> 0:32:41.880 a product that he's genuinely interested in in a category 0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:44.560 that he's exploring. I'm not talking about retargeting, but like 0:32:44.600 --> 0:32:49.000 that's intuitively applicable to Ross's life. That is informative, that 0:32:49.120 --> 0:32:53.120 is funny, that is joyful, that's that's not a tax 0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:56.040 on Ross's attention, that's additive to the experience. And so 0:32:56.440 --> 0:32:59.560 what we try and do is stay in that zone. 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:02.360 And like I sometimes I do get excited as like 0:33:02.400 --> 0:33:06.000 a nerd about you know, all the things we can 0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:08.280 learn from all of the signal that's coming out of 0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:12.160 our lives. I also I want to be really measured 0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:16.960 as a human being about the question of how would 0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:20.360 I feel about that the application of that whether or 0:33:20.400 --> 0:33:23.840 not it's legally obtained, whether or not it's gdp R compliant, Like, 0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:26.720 how would I feel about the application of that data 0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:31.000 point to what's happening in my media consumption experience right now? 0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:33.520 I hear you. I think that's awesome. I think you 0:33:33.520 --> 0:33:36.560 guys are setting up for a post cookie world, which 0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:40.520 I don't actually think a lot of companies, at least 0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:43.920 a lot of cmos are not thinking about yet. Unquestionably, 0:33:43.960 --> 0:33:46.480 we actually just did a project in the publishers side 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:49.360 of our business for one of the largest publishers on 0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:51.320 the planet that I want that I'm on name here. 0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:55.239 That was Cookieless World. That was basically, how do you 0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:59.560 build a smart and virtuous ad business um and how 0:33:59.560 --> 0:34:03.600 do you part anticipate as a platform of scale in 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:06.400 a cookuous world. So the people on that side are 0:34:06.400 --> 0:34:08.600 starting to think about it, But I agree that wave 0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:11.839 hasn't really hit the cmos yet. They're like, they're gonna 0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:13.480 get pulled into it, and I'm glad we're on the 0:34:13.480 --> 0:34:16.200 forefront of it, but it's not sort of broadly out 0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:19.400 there yet. So what is known want to be known for? Like, 0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:23.600 what is the influence you want to have on this 0:34:23.680 --> 0:34:28.040 industry short term? Long term? I'll tell you there are 0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:33.680 two things. UM. So they're like there's the part of 0:34:33.719 --> 0:34:40.040 me that's just excited about seeing the alchemy of you know, 0:34:40.280 --> 0:34:44.400 ardent science in like a real partnership of equals UM 0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:49.480 in doing this stuff and breaking down some of the 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:53.440 barriers in the way that people when professionals talk to 0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:55.400 each other like it's a real thing and we shouldn't, 0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:57.520 you know, Like people are bigger than those boxes of 0:34:57.600 --> 0:35:01.120 data scientists and creative director and that's that's just an 0:35:01.160 --> 0:35:04.640 amazing thing to watch and to watch happen in the 0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:07.239 world of modern marketing as people get more fluent and 0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:12.040 more dynamic in how they use this stuff. There's also 0:35:12.920 --> 0:35:20.680 the competitive oppositional like grumpy business person in UM and 0:35:21.719 --> 0:35:28.400 I get incredibly frustrated when I see structures in place 0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:33.799 that are self serving and designed to impede the intellectual 0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:40.560 metabolism of an environment like this. And I think unintentionally, 0:35:41.200 --> 0:35:45.640 but over many, many decades, we've created a structure in 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:54.400 the traditional media planning and buying environment that deliberately holds 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:59.440 back the evolution of the industry and and the passion 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:03.120 that I had for like going all in, Like guess what, like, 0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:07.680 you own a data science and analytics company in you 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:09.920 don't need like nobody said you should really merge with 0:36:09.960 --> 0:36:13.640 a creative agency, right, Like That's like that's everybody wants 0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:15.880 to be a data science and analytics company in for 0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:18.399 all the wrong reasons. But that's that's like a good 0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:21.080 place to be. And the thing that I think made 0:36:21.080 --> 0:36:24.279 me and all the other partners in that company want 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:27.200 to go all in on this was having the deep 0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:30.239 experience we had on the publisher side seeing all the 0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:34.239 amazing investments publishers and platforms are making to expose their 0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:37.799 inventory and novel ways, and then also on the on 0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:42.080 the client side seeing next generation marketers like Ross talked 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:46.840 about making massive strides to do things differently and in 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:49.480 a smarter way, in a more efficient way, and then 0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:54.000 watching this thing just get stuck because the economic models 0:36:54.920 --> 0:36:59.680 for how these transactions get handled and processed are broken. 0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:03.319 Look like when I was working at Viacom with an 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:06.680 incredible group of people who are trying to do things 0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:10.520 a different way and trying to bring media out into 0:37:10.520 --> 0:37:14.799 the marketplace in a different way. And and the whole problem, though, 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:17.880 is if they go transparent, If the platforms and publishers 0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:22.719 are transparent and advanced and integrated, and they expose their 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:27.200 inventory brank banks with real time discoverable pricing, which even 0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:32.440 TV companies do now for television, and you've got data savvy, 0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:35.239 aggressive marketers on the other side, like, how do I 0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:38.440 make money as a media buying platform? Like I'll tell 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:40.560 you how we make money. We say, oh, that's cool, 0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:43.279 Like we have incredible data scientists. We're happy to have 0:37:43.360 --> 0:37:47.120 them support your team, work with our creative folks. Optimize 0:37:47.160 --> 0:37:51.400 the ship out of this not by not by telling 0:37:51.440 --> 0:37:53.640 you you can't buy it on your own, not by 0:37:53.680 --> 0:37:57.160 telling the upfront scary. The upfront is so scary you 0:37:57.200 --> 0:38:01.399 can't go in there. We have to value and so 0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:06.239 like that passion for adding actual, real hard value to 0:38:06.360 --> 0:38:10.279 this ecosystem made us realize that, like, you have to 0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:12.279 have all these things together, You've got to really do 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:14.759 it right and and it's all or an nothing. We 0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:17.239 need to be the place where the best people on 0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:20.280 the planet come to do the best work of their lives. 0:38:20.920 --> 0:38:23.719 How are you training talent? How are you training future marketers? 0:38:24.760 --> 0:38:26.719 That's hard. In fact, I think it's one of our 0:38:26.719 --> 0:38:29.560 greatest challenges because it's really difficult for us to recruit 0:38:29.600 --> 0:38:32.120 as you can imagine the kind of talent that's required 0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:34.799 as at this level from other agencies. We do a 0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:38.560 lot of recruiting out of the top colleges and universities 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:42.920 and you know post doc programs in the world. Um. 0:38:43.040 --> 0:38:45.279 Many of the people who come and work and known 0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:48.920 just aren't from this industry, and the perspective and the 0:38:48.960 --> 0:38:53.720 brilliance that they bring is what's sort of rejuvenating everything. UM. 0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:57.120 And then you know, world class creative talent and strategic 0:38:57.160 --> 0:39:02.759 talent like hard to find and incredibly in demand. UM. 0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:05.600 But but we we've been lucky so far in that 0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:07.719 we've built a culture that people want to be part of. 0:39:08.040 --> 0:39:10.600 So if you think about every new person that joins 0:39:11.560 --> 0:39:13.800 our company, they're sort of recoding the d N a 0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:16.799 person by person that's Adam by Adam right, and they're 0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:21.160 adding us their own apps to this operating system and 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:23.680 they're making it better. And that's sort of happening now 0:39:23.719 --> 0:39:25.719 at a pace that I don't know that we could 0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:30.040 have imagined a year ago, especially given you know, how 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:32.359 is gone. But We've been very fortunate, and I think 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:34.680 now the most important thing is healthy growth. What do 0:39:34.760 --> 0:39:37.759 you both think it takes to break through going into 0:39:39.360 --> 0:39:42.520 I think Ross and I and and Mark and Brad 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:46.080 and all the you know, creatives and scientists at talk 0:39:46.160 --> 0:39:48.600 about this a lot, and we talk about it in 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:52.399 the context of some of our values right around sort 0:39:52.440 --> 0:39:57.200 of authenticity, UM and honesty. There's no doubt and we 0:39:57.200 --> 0:40:01.040 we recently you know, you talked about we feel like 0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:05.120 I felt like there was a real UM has been 0:40:05.120 --> 0:40:08.640 a real hard reset in the culture and and there 0:40:08.640 --> 0:40:11.640 are a lot like a lot of things have changed, 0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:15.520 need to change, will change UM coming out of this experience, 0:40:15.520 --> 0:40:17.640 and I'm an optimist about where it all ends. But 0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:21.000 we also felt like we needed to reset and put 0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:23.520 our finger back on the pulse of what was happening 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:27.040 in the world. So we ran this huge self funded 0:40:27.040 --> 0:40:30.960 study of the human condition in UM that we just recently. 0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:34.120 What did it say? It said that in a in 0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:39.200 a sort of a universal experience and phenomenon, it's hitting 0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:45.279 different people very differently. UM and UH. The kinds of 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:50.120 things that are UH, that are allowing some people to 0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:53.960 survive and thrive are not the things you think, it's 0:40:54.000 --> 0:40:58.920 not your economics standing. Um, it's not even necessarily your 0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:05.759 career um or your position. Um. It looked to us 0:41:05.800 --> 0:41:08.920 through this sort of qualitative and quantitative segmentation that it 0:41:08.960 --> 0:41:12.880 had to do with your relationships, your strong ties, your 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:16.160 relationships with people in your life, your sense of purpose, 0:41:17.160 --> 0:41:20.520 and your sense of place and connection to your community. 0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:24.640 And that all makes sense, right when you break it 0:41:24.640 --> 0:41:26.240 out like that, that that all makes sense. But it wasn't 0:41:26.239 --> 0:41:28.160 necessarily how we were lensing, and it wasn't how our 0:41:28.200 --> 0:41:31.279 clients we're seeing it. It wasn't about the tropes of 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:34.920 in extraordinary times, right, And there's a lot of deeper 0:41:35.040 --> 0:41:37.560 data there too, But but those things all struck us 0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:44.640 as like foundational human authentic building blocks of who you 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.960 are and why you are and so first and foremost 0:41:48.120 --> 0:41:51.439 who we're trying to ask ourselves those questions for any 0:41:51.480 --> 0:41:53.840 creative it's like, does this is this real? Does this 0:41:53.880 --> 0:41:56.960 speak to anyone? I think you know you always want 0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:58.239 to do that in the process, but I think it's 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:00.880 like it's twice as important right now to get back 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:03.600 to for any given brand, like what is your purpose? 0:42:04.000 --> 0:42:07.880 What is your place in the lives of your audience, 0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:11.600 your consumers, your constituency um and how do you want 0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:15.200 to talk to those people. Alexa hit this home in 0:42:15.200 --> 0:42:20.160 our Malcolm Gladwell episode and referencing David versus Goliath scenario 0:42:20.239 --> 0:42:24.640 of not losing sight of those relationships with our consumer 0:42:25.040 --> 0:42:27.600 and what matters to them. And I'm gonna throw this 0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:32.280 back to your partner, Ross, because I've had the really 0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:35.400 great honor of getting to know Ross a few years 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:39.239 ago and talking to him and understanding when he was 0:42:39.280 --> 0:42:42.880 building Blackbird that and Ross, you correct me if I'm wrong, 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:48.600 but you were always in the pursuit of truth, and 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:52.640 as a marketer, I think maybe that's the that's the 0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:55.600 whole point. You bring up a great point, and it's 0:42:55.640 --> 0:42:57.360 it's sort of an extension of what Kerment was just 0:42:57.400 --> 0:43:00.279 saying that, like that that is sort of the the 0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:04.120 dark side of what we're learning about ourselves as a society, 0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:07.560 especially here in America, is that like, there is no 0:43:09.360 --> 0:43:15.680 Laura and Alexa. Right, there's Laura and there's Alexa, and 0:43:15.760 --> 0:43:18.360 you happen to do this show together, but the truth 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:21.200 is so different, or maybe just a little different, but 0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:23.520 it's different for each of you. And so if I 0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:27.120 want to reach your heart and make a connection. If 0:43:27.160 --> 0:43:29.680 I want to change what you think, if I want 0:43:29.719 --> 0:43:32.000 to get you to turn right when you're normally going 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:35.160 to turn left, I actually have to find the central 0:43:35.239 --> 0:43:39.400 human truth of you. And I can't rely, as I 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:43.960 did before, on my own bias on shallow punditry, on 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:47.080 assumptions about who you are. Because you're two white women 0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:48.960 of a certain age who live in the East Coasts, 0:43:49.640 --> 0:43:52.200 and that's what we used to do. We actually did 0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:57.440 that for decades. We cannot afford to waste the marketing 0:43:57.480 --> 0:44:01.120 dollars on that kind of carelessness and waste the time 0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:03.440 and attention of that audience, of that audience, when the 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:07.360 tools are all available to us. They are now at 0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:11.080 our finger trips. There is no more excuse for not 0:44:11.360 --> 0:44:20.719 knowing that. I think we mic drop that. So we'll 0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:22.720 start with current. Because Karrent has never played the game. 0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:26.080 Kerrent killed by d I Y. I think you've heard 0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:27.480 it from me a few times, Like I would get 0:44:27.560 --> 0:44:33.040 rid of anybody out there who has gotten themselves boxed 0:44:33.080 --> 0:44:36.719 into a corner where they're where they're fighting against progress 0:44:37.120 --> 0:44:40.960 in this industry, where they're pushing back on efficiency and 0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:46.000 opportunity in in progress UM and that that's not that's 0:44:46.000 --> 0:44:48.520 not one company, and that's not one category. But like 0:44:49.040 --> 0:44:51.799 in any category, there's a bunch of UM. So let's 0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:53.640 get rid of them because like that, we don't have 0:44:53.719 --> 0:44:57.359 time and and and the clients deserve better. I'll tell 0:44:57.400 --> 0:45:00.799 you what I think we've talked about. We feel like 0:45:00.960 --> 0:45:04.520 we can and should buy doesn't sound like the right word, 0:45:04.560 --> 0:45:06.560 but but but who we want to go find and 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:11.360 partner with and bring in. We think that there's outside 0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:16.279 of the US, there's a bunch of tremendous creative assets, 0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:21.280 creative companies out there who are doing beautiful, amazing work 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:25.239 in each of their regions and countries, and who are 0:45:25.280 --> 0:45:29.239 also increasingly trying to scratch the data action Like who 0:45:29.400 --> 0:45:34.000 could be incredible additions to our team, incredible extensions of 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:37.160 our DNA as Ross said UM as we serve more 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:41.280 and more global clients, right, so getting into local markets 0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:45.600 with best in class creative for those markets I think 0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:48.120 makes sense for us. And what I want to keep 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:53.240 d I y NG is the process and the culture 0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:57.799 that connects this thing together. And you know, we talk 0:45:57.880 --> 0:45:59.560 a lot about the operating system of our clients, but 0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:02.360 also they an operating system and a belief system for ourselves. 0:46:03.280 --> 0:46:06.640 And that's the thing we need to never stop building it. 0:46:07.000 --> 0:46:11.120 Ross killed by d I y I'm gonna kill hate. 0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:19.480 I'm gonna buy time. I'm gonna build empathy, Ross Kern, 0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:22.040 known dot is. If people want to get in touch 0:46:22.120 --> 0:46:26.480 with you to remix data, science and creativity, how do 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:29.359 they get in touch with you? Hello at known dot 0:46:29.480 --> 0:46:33.760 is and we will say hello back, Ross Kern. Poets 0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:37.280 of progress? Did you know that I have been for 0:46:37.280 --> 0:46:40.400 for years since I first met Ross, I've been calling 0:46:40.480 --> 0:46:44.000 him a business poet. Here is a business poet. I mean, Ross, 0:46:44.040 --> 0:46:46.440 come on, give us something, Ross, just something to close 0:46:46.480 --> 0:46:49.160 the episode with something from your book. Let's put it 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:51.759 a little plug here. Ross is a published poet. The 0:46:51.840 --> 0:46:55.880 cop who rides alone, Ross Martin. It started to thunder. 0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:58.600 I began to wonder why do we mow our lawns? 0:46:59.160 --> 0:47:01.160 Then it hit me. The nice lines are pretty when 0:47:01.160 --> 0:47:04.120 they wake up freshly cut it dawn. Maybe they want 0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:06.640 to keep growing, but man's too ignorant to stop mowing, 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.839 So lawns are cut each day because man doesn't care 0:47:09.880 --> 0:47:13.000 about cutting nature's hair, even if nature doesn't want it 0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:15.200 that way. I love it Did you write that when 0:47:15.200 --> 0:47:17.319 you were fifteen? Yeah? Did I do that in the 0:47:17.360 --> 0:47:21.919 last episode? No, but I remember you talking and he's 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:24.120 always triing that out. I only got one poem and 0:47:24.200 --> 0:47:32.520 I was fifteen. Can and order, Yes, this opportunity less 0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:35.040 opportunity Our data side just five out of six. Data 0:47:35.080 --> 0:47:37.600 Side just will tell you that that is the best title. 0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:45.160 Can we just say congratulations on this season and this 0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:47.799 is the podcast. So we're just so grateful to be 0:47:47.840 --> 0:47:50.279 part of you your world here on a small part, 0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:52.279 but thank you so much. You will be coming back. 0:47:52.400 --> 0:48:02.399 Thank you guys, to Laura coming out of this conversation. 0:48:03.000 --> 0:48:07.960 The things that shine through for me one, we as 0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:12.400 marketers and especially cmos, tend to continue to look at 0:48:12.480 --> 0:48:16.680 the vanity as you call them, vanity metrics. Right, So, 0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:19.920 what's happening on your website, what's happening in your purchase funnel, 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:23.080 what's happening da da da da. But those are surface metrics, 0:48:24.239 --> 0:48:29.719 that's surface data and analytics, rather than having creatives and 0:48:29.840 --> 0:48:35.960 data scientists briefed together, starting together and going to find 0:48:36.000 --> 0:48:40.160 out what could be known. It's interesting in how Ross 0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:44.160 and currenter positioning their value prop right, and that it's 0:48:44.239 --> 0:48:46.839 less so about um one or the other, but how 0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:50.759 these two things work together, the ability to understand patterns 0:48:51.560 --> 0:48:55.080 using data and breakdown at the individual levels. What I 0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:59.840 took away down to the individual level what creative serves 0:49:00.000 --> 0:49:04.280 Alexa versus what creative serves Laura and I think marrying 0:49:04.360 --> 0:49:06.160 that you know this idea of we think so much 0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:09.520 in the creative spaces art director meets copywriter, but is 0:49:09.560 --> 0:49:14.480 the new critical pairing data scientists and creative director. Yeah, 0:49:14.520 --> 0:49:18.919 I love that. And when you think about designing, designing 0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:27.080 both product designing, designing both products and campaign or message 0:49:27.520 --> 0:49:33.000 right against triggers that are about the needs that are 0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:37.080 filling the needs and understanding the triggers of the consumer first, 0:49:37.320 --> 0:49:40.680 designing that upfront that should be your brief with a 0:49:40.760 --> 0:49:46.160 bunch of hypotheses, a bunch of opportunities right to test. 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:49.560 And too often I think, you know and Ross kind 0:49:49.560 --> 0:49:51.239 of hit on this too often. I think we talk 0:49:51.280 --> 0:49:55.360 about campaigns and there that that alone is something that 0:49:55.640 --> 0:49:59.160 starts and ends. And what Ross and Kurn were saying 0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:03.520 is that this just keeps going, This just keeps learning. 0:50:03.880 --> 0:50:05.879 And in order to do that, you have to get 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:08.480 out in the market. You have to actually have a 0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:12.120 hook to start reeling in. If you don't have that 0:50:12.200 --> 0:50:15.399 hook out there and you're not testing multiple iterations, I'm 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:18.600 not just talking about messaging and creative, I'm talking about ideas. 0:50:19.360 --> 0:50:23.839 I'm talking about products. And so is the question that 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:26.360 the CMO becomes more of a growth marketer or is 0:50:26.400 --> 0:50:29.840 the question that the CMO becomes more of a product person. 0:50:30.880 --> 0:50:33.640 Is that where we're headed. Yeah, it's interesting when you 0:50:33.640 --> 0:50:37.640 think about the word programmatic. So much of the emphasis 0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:41.360 has been on the automatic part of that word. But 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:46.120 really what I heard is using data science to really unpack, 0:50:46.400 --> 0:50:50.319 unbundle the journey, really think about the message that's going 0:50:50.360 --> 0:50:55.040 to resonate in that journey, and really thinking about programming 0:50:55.360 --> 0:51:01.120 the automation versus automating the programming all of that, you know. 0:51:01.160 --> 0:51:03.479 And on that note, one of the things that Kern said, 0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:05.440 and he kind of said it quietly, right, it was 0:51:05.480 --> 0:51:09.840 like a point was about sequencing. We don't actually think 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:16.240 about sequencing enough. This is about design up front. Designing 0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:19.520 up front the path you're going to take someone, and 0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:23.280 it has multiple iterations, and it has multiple turning points. 0:51:23.719 --> 0:51:26.680 They could take someone down depending on their behavior, depending 0:51:26.719 --> 0:51:30.400 on where they are in their interesting consideration, and I 0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:37.000 think that you know, the industry is separated the tools, right, 0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:40.440 the data science and the analytics and the metrics and 0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:43.759 point KPIs and those types of things with good creative 0:51:44.040 --> 0:51:47.279 but those things, as Ross and Kern said, they go 0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:49.520 hand in hand. Well yeah, I mean so much of 0:51:49.680 --> 0:51:53.280 what I've experienced throughout my career is the creative leading 0:51:54.360 --> 0:52:00.520 that messaging and then using the data science to target 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:03.840 audiences right, to go out and find the audience to 0:52:03.920 --> 0:52:06.680 deliver that message. But by pairing those two things together 0:52:06.760 --> 0:52:10.320 from the onset, you start thinking less like a planner 0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:15.080 and more like a programmer designing the journey versus planning it. 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:17.200 Kern really got to that when he was talking about 0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:22.960 bad advertising is like attacks on the consumer. They thought 0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:25.319 that was a fascinating That was a great way of 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:27.359 saying it. It was a great way of saying it. 0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:30.280 And I think, so it's less of people been paying 0:52:30.320 --> 0:52:32.440 with their time. People are paying with their time, And 0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:35.319 I think it's less about what you want to sell 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:41.239 someone and more about how are you reaching someone and 0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:45.440 making sure that there's value and what you are selling them. 0:52:45.480 --> 0:52:48.000 There's like this this thing going off in my brain, 0:52:48.120 --> 0:52:50.719 going wait a minute. If you look at a standard 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:54.600 reporting dashboard in media, one of the metrics you will 0:52:54.640 --> 0:52:58.160 often find is time spent. But we don't measure the 0:52:58.239 --> 0:53:01.920 sentiment of the time in so I may capture somebody's 0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:06.520 attention for thirty sixty seconds, but was that a good experience? 0:53:07.000 --> 0:53:11.480 What was that time well spent? Right? So central question, 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:14.759 what do you want to be known for? That is 0:53:14.800 --> 0:53:18.120 the question? And speaking of questions, Alexa, We're going to 0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:22.120 be introducing a new segment on Atlantia called The Burning 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:25.960 Question with Kindred CEO Ian Schaefer so Atlanta. Each week 0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:27.920 we're gonna be teaming up with Kindred to pose a 0:53:27.920 --> 0:53:31.320 provocative question to our listeners that explores how popular culture 0:53:31.400 --> 0:53:34.920 movements affect brand decisions. And we're gonna be asking those 0:53:35.040 --> 0:53:37.680 questions on Twitter and then some of the responses from 0:53:37.719 --> 0:53:40.640 the Atlantia community will be read on air and discussed 0:53:40.680 --> 0:53:43.279 in the podcast in addition to having I and share 0:53:43.320 --> 0:53:47.759 his perspective. So week one question has the fear of 0:53:47.880 --> 0:53:51.120 cancel culture lad brands and the people behind them to 0:53:51.280 --> 0:53:56.000 develop faux food. Fear of fffing up is the appeal 0:53:56.080 --> 0:54:01.040 to everyone, the new appeal to no one. This popular culture, 0:54:01.160 --> 0:54:06.080 Eat Corporate Culture for breakfast, tweet at Atlantia Podcasts and 0:54:06.320 --> 0:54:10.359 see c I Shaefer Ian Shaeffer to get into the conversation, 0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:13.560 and we may have you on one of our next 0:54:13.560 --> 0:54:17.040 episodes to discuss Laura hit it with the list of 0:54:17.080 --> 0:54:18.799 all of our friends and family at I Heart who 0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:21.080 have been so good to us and helped us get 0:54:21.080 --> 0:54:24.840 back on air. Big thank you to Bob Connal, Carter, Andy, 0:54:25.160 --> 0:54:28.600 Eric Gayle Val, Michael Jen. We appreciate you. Thank you 0:54:28.640 --> 0:54:31.480 so much for this opportunity. We'll see you in two weeks.