1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I'm not one to believe 2 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: in ghosts, but many times when you're driving down the road, 3 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: particularly down here in the Deep South, one of the 4 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: things that comes to mind when you're in a car 5 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: by yourself late at night, you wonder what's out there. 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: You wonder what might be approaching you. Can you imagine 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: being on your way to work one day, you look 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: up and you see something in the little road. You're 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: not really sure what that might be, and then all 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you swerve at the last second and 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: you think to yourself, what did I just see? And 12 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: your brain is going to another place other than human remains. 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: The case that we're going to talk about today involves 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: human remains. It actually involves the body of a young man, 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: a young man that has been in the news quite 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: a bit recently. We're gonna talk about his death. We're 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: going to talk about his discovery in the middle of 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: a lonely two lane blacktop in the low country of 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: South Carolina. We're gonna talk about the death of Stephen Smith. 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. My 21 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: buddy Dave mac He's a senior reporter with Crime Online, Dave, 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: do you ever have those moments where you're driving down 23 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: the road and you think you catch something in your 24 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: highline and you're not really sure what it is, and 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: then you have to do a double taking thing. I 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: can't believe I just saw what I saw. I have 27 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: so many questions for you about the death of Steven Smith. 28 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: I can't imagine going down the road early morning hours. 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: You're just getting your day started, a cup of coffee 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: in your hand, and you come upon something in the 31 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: road that obviously ought not be there, and all I 32 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: could think of is the panic, and you're not exactly sure, 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: so you have to stop your car and check it on. 34 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: Whatever it is you're compelled to do that, you know 35 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: at any number of levels, And I've actually encountered this 36 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: working as a death investigator, where I'll be talking to 37 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: somebody interviewing them out on the scene of a person 38 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: found in the roadway. They almost always say, I can't 39 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: believe this is happening. I can't believe this is happening, 40 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: because I think there's something in our brain where we 41 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: want to make that thing that we have discovered something 42 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: other than human. We don't want to see a fellow 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: human being lying there before us. It's one of the 44 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: most horrific things that you can imagine. In our minds. 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: We're thinking, yeah, this is probably a deer, because that's 46 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: the most common thing that we encounter. And then you 47 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: might think, well, it might be a pet that I've 48 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: encountered any number of things over the years that have 49 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: crossed my path in the middle of the road, particularly 50 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: down in South Louisiana. I've seen oggs in the middle 51 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: of the road. I've actually seen the alligator that have 52 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: been hit. That doesn't happen a lot, but it's a 53 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: ferocious kind of thing relative to the damage that can 54 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: do your car because the bodies of these alligators are 55 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: so low. I've seen two of them in the middle 56 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: of the road, good size ones as a matter of fact, 57 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: and I can only imagine the person that ran over them. 58 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: It was quite a shock. But you're trying to think 59 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: of something other than human. And then once it hits you, 60 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: and can you imagine pulling over on the side of 61 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: the road in that darkness, and you're trying to think, 62 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 1: what do I do? What do I say next? How 63 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: do I respond to this? Do I run up to 64 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: this individual and see if in fact they are alive. 65 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: Maybe it's someone that's inebriated and somebody push them out 66 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: of the vehicle and dumped them on the side of 67 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: the road. Maybe it's somebody that's in trouble, somebody that's 68 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: in crisis. But that confirmatory moment after you've initially seen it, 69 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: and then you have to go back and validate it. 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: I think in your mind that's a hard thing, and 71 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: then when people are hit with that reality, it's certainly 72 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: something that stays with you for the rest of your life. 73 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: This was categorized as a hit and run, an unsolved 74 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: crime of a hit and run. Let me stop you 75 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: right there. People need to understand something. Stephen Smith's case 76 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: is not simply a hit and run. This is an 77 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: open homicide, period, end of story. There's no debate on that. 78 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: You have an individual that is dead at the hand 79 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: of another person, and in a very tight definition, that's 80 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: how we define homicide. You're not making judgment about anyone 81 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: when you say that. I don't like the term murder 82 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: because it's a lawyer's word. It's a theatrical word, almost, 83 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: and yet it's on the books in many states, But 84 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: when you talk about homicide, it's much more clinical. You 85 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: begin to think about homicide death at the hand of another. 86 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: I guess it could potentially be ruled as an accident 87 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: at some point in time, but at its base element 88 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: if what they are saying is accurate relative to the authorities. 89 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: You have an individual that was driving a vehicle and 90 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: they struck someone and they left. That's where the hit 91 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: and run comes in. But from a medical legal perspective, 92 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: this is going to be a homicide. And this is 93 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: an open case. And now we're seven eight years down 94 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: range from when this actually happened back in twenty fifteen. 95 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: We hear the term coal case thrown around. I think 96 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: about my dear sister Cheryl McCullum and her podcast A 97 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: Zone seven. That's what she deals with. You get seven 98 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: years down range from case and you don't have any 99 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: leads in it. Many instances that would be considered cold, 100 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: but I think that this case is far from cold 101 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: at this point. There's a lot here from an evidentiary 102 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: standpoint that you can look to kind of understand what happened. 103 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: In the world of trying to bring justice for anybody 104 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: that's not my Bailey Wick. I'm interested in the science 105 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,559 Speaker 1: of things, the forensics behind it, and if that winds 106 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: up bringing about justice, then that's fine. But the dynamics 107 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: of this thing are fascinating. There's enough there that we 108 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: can begin to kind of unwrap this thing and kind 109 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: of talk about a little bit more. Okay, you find 110 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: a body in the middle of the road, how do 111 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: you go from that to determining that it was a 112 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,119 Speaker 1: hit and run and nothing else. His body was found 113 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: in the middle of the road, And I'm curious what 114 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: happens from that moment, Joe. When the nine one one 115 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: operator gets the call of a body in the road, 116 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: what do they do? Do they call you? They call police? 117 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: That's an excellent question because I think that most people 118 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: would think that retrospectively, they would think you're going to 119 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: call the corner. No, you have to validate that the 120 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: individual is in fact to see So the first person 121 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: that's going to show up first responders. They're going to 122 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: roll out on this. So when that nine to eleven 123 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: call is initiated, there's a switch that's flipped. What you'll 124 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: get most of the time is there will be a 125 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: local fire station that will be alerted and they have 126 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: a first responder unit that will roll out and generally 127 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: it looks like a smaller firetruck, not necessarily like an ambulance, 128 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: but a smaller firetruck. The individuals on that truck will 129 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: not only be firefighters, but they'll also be EMTs. That's 130 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: why they get dual certification and firefighting. So you'll have 131 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: an EMT on there. Sometimes you'll have a paramedic, which 132 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: is the top end of emergency versponse certification if you 133 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: become a paramedic, and they would roll out to the 134 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: scene and they're going to do an initial assessment. Of course, 135 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: the police are rolling there at the same time. You've 136 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: got an individual that's deceased in the middle of the road. 137 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: They're going to want to see this as well. So 138 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: you've got all of these people kind of rolling up there. 139 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: And EMTs are a big part of what we do 140 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: in medical legal death investigation because they're the first eyes 141 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: on the scene. They see things in a very unvarnished 142 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: manner before they roll up. The body is in a 143 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: pristine state. So what's their job. Well, their job there 144 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: is not to investigate. Their job is to save lives. 145 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: I've had them saved my life before. When they roll out, 146 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: they're going to be the first group of people that 147 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: are going to see this. And you know what's very 148 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: curious about this day is that when the EMTs first 149 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: showed up where Stephen Smith was found out there on 150 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: that lonely country road, they took one look at him, 151 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: and some reports are saying that the EMTs initially thought 152 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: that he looked like he had sustained a gunshot WoT. 153 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: I find that curious because when they did that initial assessment, 154 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: they apparently looked at his head and his head from 155 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: their perspective out on the scene when they flashed their 156 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: flashlights on him. They had the lights on their truck 157 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: on which are brilliant, very very bright. They're seeing such 158 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: trauma to this young man's head as skull that they're thinking, 159 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: oh my god, we're dealing with a gunshot wound, where 160 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: someone has been left in the middle of the road 161 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: with a gsw to their head. There was something about 162 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: the way he looked that their mind didn't go to 163 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: pedestrian struck by a vehicle, Dave. Their mind went to 164 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: gunshot wound. I'm absolutely fascinated by that. Of course, they 165 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: later determined that not only did he have trauma to 166 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: his head, but he also had trauma to his upper extremities, 167 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: his arm and his hands. I think there was a 168 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: dislocated shoulder, that sort of thing. There was just something 169 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: that didn't quite integrate into their thinking. Here. Keep in mind, 170 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: these EMTs they see a lot more than we can 171 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: ever imagine because they roll out on everything, roll out 172 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: on all these motor vehicle accidents that don't wind up 173 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: as a fatality, but yet they see trauma and they're 174 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 1: constantly assessing in what the medical profession refers to as 175 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: triaging patients, doing that initial assessment determining what's wrong with them. 176 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: And Steven Smith's case, I think that they were really 177 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: shocked to see him in the state that he was 178 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: in and certainly the level of tet trauma he had sustained. 179 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: Then how different would it be for those investigators he 180 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: determined when they are told by first responderies, looks like 181 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: gunshot wound to the head. As investigators, we look for 182 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: feedback from the EMTs. The common question is what do 183 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: you think, doc? What do you think? Because the investigators 184 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: they want an immediate assessment as to what you're looking at. 185 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: After the corner arrived out there at the scene and 186 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: speaking with the accident investigators, the police officers that were 187 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: out there, they concluded that this was a hit and run, 188 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: that it wasn't a gunshot one. I think that afterwards, 189 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: when they got Steven's remains to the friends of Cathol 190 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: just In, the forensic pathologists did the assessment, they ruled 191 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: out gunshot wound at that time. Back to the scene, 192 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: there's just certain things that we look for. There's certain 193 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: elements along the way that we try to understand about 194 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: the dynamics of a motor vehicle versus a human being. 195 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: No witnesses, just perhaps Stephen Smith, we don't know what 196 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: he saw, what he experienced right before his life ended 197 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: out there. And of course the person that was driving 198 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: the vehicle, that person is out there somewhere according to authorities. 199 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: I think that the answers perhaps or the lack of answers, 200 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: are going to arrest in what was found or wasn't 201 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: found out of the scene. As you mentioned, there are 202 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: no witnesses to this. We have the police or investigators 203 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: rather saying it was a hit and run. We have 204 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: a body in nineteen year old man found in the 205 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: middle of the road, not on the side. He is 206 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: in the middle of the road. It's the middle of 207 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: the night. He had apparently been walking because his car 208 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: was found about three miles away out of gas. So 209 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: assuming that Stephen Smith is walking down the middle of 210 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: the road and he's hit, I've got questions about what 211 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: you expect as an investigator on the scene. Would his 212 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: body taking on a vehicle, would it just crumple and 213 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: end up right there in the road, or would it 214 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: not be pushed in a different direction. By the way, 215 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: I think it's important to know there are no skid 216 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: marks here because the impact was such and so quick. 217 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: You mentioned it was dark, didn't see him to the 218 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: last second. No skid marks and apparently not a whole 219 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: lot of broken glass or anything like that. But his 220 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: body is found in the road. Is that what you 221 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: would expect? And what kind of damage would you expect 222 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: to vehicle or human or both. Let's take this example 223 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: of a vehicle striking a pedestrian. Our listeners on body 224 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 1: backs are pretty bright people. You guys like science. You'd 225 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: like to delve into science. You wouldn't be here if 226 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: you didn't. And to understand the dynamics of a motor 227 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: vehicle striking a human. Just like humans, cars come in 228 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: all different shapes and sizes. Close your eyes and think 229 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: about a full size pickup truck, and I'm talking about 230 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: a full size pickup truck, which we've got a lot 231 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: of in the South. Sometimes these things can be rather big, 232 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: particularly if there's some type of aftermarket additions to these things, 233 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: where you've got rush bumpers on the front of it. 234 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: That's that big thing that sits forward to the grille. 235 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: You've got a certain level of height to them that 236 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: can be adjusted with a lift kit. On a truck, 237 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: maybe it's got big mirrors on the side that kind 238 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: of protrude out. Conversely, you begin to think about FOURD 239 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: or family sedan that's going down the road, Well, that 240 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: configuration is completely different. Maybe you've got kind of a 241 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: sloping front end that almost looks like a shovel on 242 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: the front. It's not blunted like a pickup truck is. 243 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: Then we could go on and on and on relative 244 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: to all of the configurations, but let's just take those 245 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: two examples and the dynamics that are going to occur 246 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: between a human body being struck by either one of 247 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: those platforms think about the truck. Many times, with a truck, 248 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: you will see an initial impact depended upon the orientation 249 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: of the victim to the oncoming vehicle, you will get 250 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: an initial impact. Just the energy itself will push that 251 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: body down range forward of the vehicle just for an instant, 252 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: and then you'll have that occur with these bodies meantimes 253 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: what we refer to as rollover injuries. So there's two 254 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: separate things here. You've got the initial point of impact. 255 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: We look for things like mumper marks. If you imagine 256 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: a mannequin being position in the middle of the road 257 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: in an upright fully erect position and a vehicle is 258 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: coming along that first point of contact with the leading 259 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: edge of that vehicle, and the human remains or the 260 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: human body is probably going to be the thigh, might 261 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: be the lower legs. In the case of a truck, 262 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: if it's elevated, you might get a grill strike that 263 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: takes place on the upper Torso I've even seen grill 264 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: impressions on the sides of faces where people see it's 265 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: coming in kind of at a primal level, they turn 266 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: in one instant, but you're going to have this kind 267 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: of full on flush strike and you'll get these multiple 268 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: points of contact. If it's an elevated vehicle manytimes, you'll 269 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: get these what I refer to is rollover injuries. And 270 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: if you'll think about clothes in a tumble dryer, the 271 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: body as it hits the ground or the roadway in 272 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: front of it, the vehicle will then roll over the body. 273 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: You can't stop a big vehicle on a dime. That's 274 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: why you have skid marks. So you'll have individuals that 275 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: will be struck in the car actually rolls over them. 276 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: And these injuries that you get look like the person's 277 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: essentially in a tumble dryer, but yet they're having this 278 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: tremendous pressure that's being applied to the body, and you'll 279 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: get these weird looking abrasions all over the body. They'll 280 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: be kind of curvilinear, depended upon the position of the 281 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: body and the dynamics of the tires and then the 282 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: undercarriage of the car as well. We go out the 283 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: scenes and you have these ferocious injuries on bodies. We'll 284 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: get beneath the vehicle and it's nothing to get beneath 285 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: the vehicle and see all kind of distribution of tissue 286 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: beneath the undercarriage of the car. I've seen bone brained skin. 287 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: I could just go on and on about everything I 288 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: found beneath the car. You'll find fabric from the vehicles 289 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of deposited underneath the car. You'll see it 290 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: on the inner portion of the wheel wells. Dynamic blood 291 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: deposition as well. Because you're talking about something that's just 292 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: shy of high velocity, it's a high end, medium velocity 293 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: spatter that's taking place. So you'll see a lot that's 294 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: going on beneath the car. And also you'll have road dirt, 295 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: you'll have a rubber, You'll have all these items from 296 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: the car that are transferred to the body. Dave, it's 297 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: nothing to find a tire impression on a body. I've 298 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: seen this time and time again, and it's glaring. You 299 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: can actually take a photo of it and kind of 300 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: closely qualified relative to a particular make of tire, if 301 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: you can imagine that, and you can even see some 302 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: evidence of wear patterns on tires. That's with a big truck. 303 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: If we go to a car like a low sedan, 304 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: what happens is that when a body is struck, and 305 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: I'm talking about full flush, I'm not talking about glancing 306 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: blow here, but full flush you'll have an individual that 307 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: we'll have bumper marks, particularly if it's a low profile. 308 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: You'll see breakage many times in the lower limbs in 309 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: addition to external contusions and abrasions. And what happens is 310 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: that the body is essentially pitched up in the air 311 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: and day and will impacked many times on the hood 312 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: or on the windshield where the glass will crack. You'll 313 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: get blood deposition on top of the car. They'll roll 314 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: over the top of the vehicle. You'll see blood sometimes 315 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: deposited on the roof of the car and then off 316 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: of the back. And those injuries are very unique in 317 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: and of themselves, and you'll get transfer on the front 318 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: of the car as well. If anybody has ever struck 319 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: an animal with your car, you can many times go 320 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: out and look at the headlights on your car or 321 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: the grill and you'll see tufts of hair they're caught 322 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: in there. If you were to pluck those hairs out. 323 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: From a morphological standpoint, you can actually identify the species 324 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: relative to that. Well, we've found human hair and grills before. 325 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: You certainly find other types of tissue. If we're going 326 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: with the idea that Steven Smith was struck by vehicle. 327 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: There's no doubt in my mind that there would have 328 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: been some kind of deposition onto the surface of that 329 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: vehicle that would have given you evidence of Stephen Smith's person, 330 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: his physical person. There have been something left behind on 331 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: the car, and of course, since they never were able 332 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: to go and find a vehicle that was associated with 333 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: this case, that evidence now is long since gone. The 334 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: only thing that you really have now are recollections where 335 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: you go back and say, yeah, you know what shut 336 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: up to work one day in the windshield on his 337 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: car had a big, massive tape on it. He said 338 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: what happened and said, oh, man, this truck came by 339 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: and it threw a rock and splintered my window, and 340 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden it was repaired. They get 341 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: out there really quick to repair these sorts of things. Sometimes, 342 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: so you would have had a vehicle in the same 343 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: area that would have been moving around, it would have 344 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: had significant damage to it. So you would think with 345 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: the kind of damage you just just drive, whether it's 346 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: a truck or a sedan, whatever, there would be damage 347 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: to the vehicle that from an investigative standpoint, looking at 348 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: the area, this happened the time that had happened. I know, 349 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: we cannot assume, but based on that, you would think 350 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: it would be somebody familiar with the area, because who 351 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: else would be driving around there in the middle of 352 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: the night, in the middle of July. It's not a 353 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: major thoroughfare. The fella that made the call, I mean, 354 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: God bless him wherever he is today, because he had 355 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: to witness this horrible thing. He said, well, this is 356 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: what we call the road. Essentially, you get a flavor 357 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: from him that it's out in the middle of nowhere. 358 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: This is in kind of the nether region. Out here. 359 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: You're not going to have street lights. Anybody that's on 360 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: this road, I guess you could be lost and be 361 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: on the road, but more than likely, you know the 362 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: lay of the land. This is a thoroughfare that you 363 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: go up and down on a regular basis. You would 364 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: think that the individual would be a local. And let 365 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: me tell you something. I've got a lot of friends 366 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: that have been down in the Low Country recently in 367 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: the media, and the one thing that come back and 368 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: say is that, Wow, these houses are really really far 369 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: apart down here. You get a lot of city dwellers 370 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: that go down there to cover these cases, and they're 371 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: shocked by how underpopulated the area is. It's a low 372 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: populated area and so you've got huge gaps of distances 373 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: between homes. So automatically you begin to think the most 374 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: obvious thing, this is somebody that would have struck him 375 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: in this vehicle that was probably tied to that region. 376 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: We know that he has blunt forced drama to his head. 377 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: What other damage on his body would you expect to 378 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: see Joe if he were hit by a vehicle as 379 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: we mentioned, versus bonders that looked like a gunshot wound 380 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: to the head. This is the odd thing, Dave about 381 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: this case what we know about it through media reports 382 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: and this sort of thing, that the injuries he sustained 383 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: were essentially concentrated in his head, his hands, and he's 384 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: got a dislocated shoulder. That's an odd grouping. It's obviously 385 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: all upper body, But we have to think about is 386 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: that all you've got if you're standing erect in the 387 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: center of the road. If that's the case, then why 388 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: aren't there bumper marks? Why aren't there widespread fracturing which 389 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: there would have been, get busted ribs? People will sustain. 390 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: Many times was referred to as a flailed chest, which 391 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: is essentially where the rib cage kind of fractures along 392 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: the periphery and the breastplay essentially, to put it into 393 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: practical terms, kind of floating there. You've got punctured lungs, 394 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 1: you've got fractured pelvis, you got fractured legs. Bilaterally, many times, 395 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: the femurs, the upper bones in the legs, FIBs will 396 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: be fractured. Certainly, the ankles will be fractured. You get 397 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: fractured arms, but hands, hands, and head, and that's really 398 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: the damage that they've talked about. That's an interesting configuration 399 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: when you're doing an assessment on injuries. I think that 400 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist actually opined that this was probably a 401 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: mirror strike. What do you mean by a mirror strike, Joe, Well, 402 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: a mirror strike would be if Stephen was standing on 403 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: the shoulder of the road and you've got a big, 404 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: extended mirror. Because I can't imagine just like a tiny 405 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: kind of molded mirror that's built into the side of 406 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,719 Speaker 1: a car, I can't imagine it would do this kind 407 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: of damage. And that's one of the reasons I'm thinking truck. 408 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: If you're going with mirror strike, then that means the 409 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: mirror would have to be kind of in an elevated position, 410 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: high ending out. It would have to be sufficient in 411 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: size and mass in order to deliver this kind of 412 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: force that would create a head injury so severe that 413 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: when the EMTs rolled out initially what they call it dave, 414 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: what they call it, they call it a gunshot wound 415 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: and not just gunshot wound, they were probably thinking, oh 416 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: my god, look at the destruction of this guy's head. 417 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: It's so massive. It looks like his head has been 418 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: shattered by a firearm. These EMTs, they would have seen 419 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds before, and that was immediately what their brain 420 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: kind of flew to. When you're assessing this out at 421 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: the scene and you're looking at this, you would think, 422 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: how could a mirror do this? How could a mirror 423 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: strike accomplish this? Just like any element of a vehicle 424 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: depend upon the manufacturing, the kind of how it's put 425 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: together is going to leave a distinct trauma induced impression. 426 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: And if people will just for a second consider side 427 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: mirrors on big trucks. Doesn't just have to be a 428 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: pickup truck let's just use like a tractor trailer rig. 429 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: People have seen those big side mirrors. If you think 430 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: about that, now, that would be too high, I think 431 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: to consider. But just to get the word picture in 432 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: your mind. Here relative to a mirror, and how it 433 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: kind of extends out and you look at kind of 434 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: how it shapeses got two support bars. It looks kind 435 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: of like a big d sticking off of the side 436 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: of a vehicle, and it's got the flap that is 437 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: in fact the mirror that would leave a pattern, particularly 438 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: if it's textured in any way. So if you're struck 439 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: in the side of the head with it, is there 440 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: an overlying kind of a braided pattern and contusion that's 441 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: associated with that that would give you pause to think? 442 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: This kind of looks like a mirror. This might explain 443 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: it all. So you've explained the head strike with a mirror. 444 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: What about the hands, how the hands get traumatized, how 445 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: the shoulder gets dislocated. All of this must factor into 446 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: your thinking and why are there no other injuries? This 447 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: is the other problem day. The other big problem that 448 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: arises in this is that we look not just for 449 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: skid marks, which shows an awareness on the part of 450 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: the driver, they're going to apply the brakes. We're gonna 451 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: look for a debris field. The way vehicles are made nowadays, 452 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: Let's face it, it's not like your grannies nineteen fifty 453 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: seven Chevy going down the road. A lot of fiberglass, 454 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: and it's going to shatter at some level, particularly if 455 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: you're talking about a high, high velocity kind of event 456 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: where you're striking a human being. There's no debris, Dave, 457 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: How's it possible there's no debris at the scene where 458 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: you've got bits of plastic, You've got bits of trim 459 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: they're torn off, You've got these other elements that might 460 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: be lying about. And my gosh, if it was a 461 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: mirror strike, you're gonna have to go a long way 462 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: around the barn to convince me that that mirror would 463 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: not have become detached. And if it didn't become detached completely, 464 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: by god, it's just gonna be hanging offside of that car. 465 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: And guess what else, Dave, It's going to have something 466 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: that's associated with Stephen Smith and his person on it. 467 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: Probably blood tissue. Maybe even here, if you didn't think 468 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: we had enough to talk about with Stephen Smith, the 469 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: latest chapter in this year's long investigation. Suddenly a new word, 470 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: a new term enters the lexicon of many people out 471 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: there that have not considered this in the past, or 472 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: maybe have not heard about it. I've had phone calls, 473 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: I've had emails, people wanting me to explain what this is. 474 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: And the word is exhamation. You pointed out early on, 475 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: this is a homicide investigation. There have been many, many 476 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: questions about this particular death. It is an unsolved crime. 477 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: And during the recent attention placed on the murdoph family 478 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: due to Alec Murdau's trial, some information came out and 479 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: we are not privy to that information that caused them 480 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: to reopen the investigation into the death of Stephen Smith. 481 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: It is now an ongoing investigation. Well, Stephen Smith's mother, Sandy, 482 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: she just does not believe the story. She's never bought 483 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 1: into the hit and run story. So she set up 484 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: a gofund me account to raise money to do an 485 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: independent exhimation and autopsy of Stephen Smith eight years after 486 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: the fact. Now we're at that word exhimation. I've heard 487 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: the word before, but I cannot imagine eight years after 488 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: the fact, what we would expect to determine from the 489 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: body of Stephen Smith. I don't know what it could 490 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: bring forth at this point. The thing I want to 491 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: see them a zoom at this point right now is 492 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: the records. I want to see them hire a board 493 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: certified forensic pathologists first off, board certified, not someone that 494 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: just really says they're practicing forensic pathology. There's a lot 495 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: of those types that are out there. I want somebody 496 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: that's board certified forensic pathologist, that's got years under their belt. 497 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: It's hard to explain, and let me try to compare 498 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: it to some other medical practice. Let's just say, for instance, 499 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: you've got an individual who is a brain surgeon. Okay, 500 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: they've had the finest training, they've gone through a residency, 501 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: the whole nine yards, and they deal with trauma perhaps 502 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: or they deal with some type of masks that's related 503 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: in the brain. They're going to try to remove that. 504 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: But then you've got an odd case in neurosurgery where 505 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: you've got somebody that has an item that they've been 506 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: impaled upon in their brain. I want somebody that has 507 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: a background in extricating things from skulls that are piercing 508 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: through brain. I just don't want any neurosurgeon. Do you 509 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: understand what I'm saying in this particular case, if you're 510 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: talking about a forensic pathologist, I don't want just simply 511 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: a board certified forensic pathologist. I want somebody that has 512 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: a lot of experience with eximations, somebody that has looked 513 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 1: at the dead this far down the road after they 514 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: have been buried, but before they exhume Stephen Smith's body. 515 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that they can gather all of the records 516 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: associated with the initial autopsy. And I'm talking about everything, Dave, 517 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the autopsy report. I'm talking about talks. 518 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: I want to know what he had in his system, 519 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: very specifically, not just in qualitative we say, yeah he 520 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: had this in the system. No, no, no, I want quantitative. 521 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: I want to know exactly what you found and in 522 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: what amounts he had it in his system. Here's the 523 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: big thing. I want to see any X rays. Most 524 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: forensic pathology facilities are now equipped with portable X ray. 525 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: It's really old technology, something that everybody should have that's 526 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: doing autopsies. I want to see them give these radiographs 527 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: over to a consulting forensic pathologist and have them review 528 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: everything before they ever put shovel to dirt here now 529 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: in order to get his body exhumed. This is not 530 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: a light undertaking. This is something where you actually have 531 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: to get what's referred to as an order of exhimation. 532 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: If you did not have this legal gatekeeper in place, 533 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: can you imagine what a chaotic circumstance it would be 534 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: everybody that just suddenly got a notion to wanting to 535 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: have some grave cracked open. They could just go out 536 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: and say, well, I want mine great great grandfather's remains exhumed. 537 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: I want them brought back out so we can all 538 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: take a look. It'd be total chaos. So they have 539 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: an order of exhimation, and many times these are not granted. 540 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: It's at the judge's discretion. So the scene under South 541 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: Carolina law, there is actually a statute for this. They 542 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: have to go and treat for this. They have to say, listen, 543 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: we want this done. We're submitting the paperwork, and then 544 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: the judge will make the final ruling as to whether 545 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: or not an eximation is going to take place. Once 546 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: exhimation has taken place or the order is given, they'll 547 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: go out and it's in reverse order. If the way 548 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: they bury somebody, they're going to have to take that 549 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: top layer of dirt off. If there is a slab 550 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: on top of the ground, if you're not familiar, concrete 551 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: slab just kind of sits there, it would have to 552 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: be removed. They'd have to dig down, get the dirt 553 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: out from beneath it, and then they get down to 554 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: the vault. If you've never been involved in eximations, which 555 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: I've been involved in a number of them over the 556 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: course of my career, once you get that top layer 557 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: of dirt removed, you get down to the vault. The 558 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: vault is placed in the ground. For those that have 559 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: never seen this before, you don't just dig a hole 560 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: and place a casket in the ground. It's not the 561 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: way it works. You dig the hole, which is in 562 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: fact six feet deep, and then you place this big 563 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: concrete box in the ground, and then the casket is 564 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: actually lowered into the box. You've seen people using the 565 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: straps at burials, that sort of thing. It goes down 566 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: into the ground, straps are removed, and then they put 567 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: the cap. There's a cap that goes on top of 568 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: the vault. What you've got is essentially a box in 569 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: a box. You've got the casket contained the body inside 570 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: of another box, which is the vault. Vault is sealed 571 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: covered with dirt. If there's a slapstone that's placed there, 572 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: it's placed, and then you have a headstone that marks 573 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: where the grave is. Some of the things that you 574 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: encounter along the way the water table rising and falling. 575 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: We're talking about the low Country day and what does 576 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: the low Country have. It's famous for water. It's one 577 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: of the things that makes it so mysterious and beautiful. 578 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: Along with that, you have a water table that rises 579 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: and falls many times that's dictated by the Atlantic Ocean 580 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: that's just stones throw away. You get a lot of 581 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: rain down there. They have flooding, so if you're in 582 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: a non protected space like that, you'll get seepage into 583 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: the grave area and it will also get into the vault. Ergo. 584 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: If it gets into the vault, it's sitting in there 585 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: with the casket, and sometimes it's a casket it's not 586 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: high quality. You'll get water inside the casket. So you've 587 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: got the body just kind of free floating inside of 588 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: the casket. I don't know that that's happened. Maybe it's not. 589 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: Maybe it's as dry as the day that they placed 590 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: Steven Spen's body in the ground. However, it's something that 591 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: would not surprise me if it had happened. And if 592 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 1: that happens, then the remains inside are going to be 593 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: compromised greatly. You're going to have all kinds of that 594 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: occur with moisture. You'll have mold that sets in. It 595 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: can destroy clothing that might be there. Not that the 596 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: clothing that is contained therein would be relevant to the case, 597 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: but the clothing that the body is dressed in would 598 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: be super saturated with water, and that's going to promote 599 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: bacterial growth because when the water comes in, it brings 600 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: all the little microscopic nasties with them that it introduces 601 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: into that environment. So you're fighting that. Not to mention 602 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: just years I've actually participated in case to Stay, I'll 603 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: never forget. I had a case where a guy was 604 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: dressed in an all white suit, white tie, white socks, 605 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: white shoes, white vest, and he looked the same as 606 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: he did the day that he was put in the 607 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: ground twenty years earlier. He had a carnation that they'd 608 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: put in his lapel. The underlying white material was stained red. 609 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: The carnation was dried, but you could still appreciate he 610 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: had a little bit of mold growing on his face, 611 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: but other than that, he was like in pristine condition. 612 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: That gives you an idea as to how well this 613 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: body was preserved. And when the bodies are embalmed, they're 614 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: there for a long time. If you've ever wondered what 615 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: it feels like when you tap a body that has 616 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: been embombed, that kind of has the same texture as 617 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: an overinflated leather basketball. That's the best way I can 618 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: describe it. It doesn't have a foul odor. It's got 619 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: kind of a sickly sweet odor. I think a lot 620 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: of that comes along with the fluids that they used 621 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: to do that. Here's the problem with Stephen. I don't 622 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: know if he was viewable. I would think that as 623 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: a result of the head trauma, he probably wasn't, so 624 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: his body would have been traumatized. And anytime a body 625 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: is traumatized, that is going to speed decomposition, even in 626 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: the face of embalming, so you're going to have these 627 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: kind of compromised areas relative to the tissue can't be 628 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: as well preserved. If a body is intact and then embalmed. 629 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: That's going to be a consideration here. I've participated in 630 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: exhimations that have actually taken place in barns. I've gone 631 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: to old funeral homes to examine bodies. As a result 632 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: of exhimations, his body has got to go to a 633 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: state of the art facility, top line photography, top line 634 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: X ray and imaging equipment. Someplaces actually have ct Now. 635 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: You want it well lit. You want to have every 636 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: instrument known to man that's at your disposal. If you're 637 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,439 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist and their team, you want a really 638 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: good photographer. You cannot do this haphazardly. You can't just 639 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: go to whatever location is convenient to do the examination. 640 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: We talked about the amount of money that she had raised, 641 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: that the gofund meat had raised that amount. The last 642 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: calculation I heard was above sixty thousand. You're well above 643 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: what you would need in order to facilitate this kind 644 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: of examination. They're going to have to do full body 645 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: X rays on Steven's body, dave from the top of 646 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: his head to the soles of his feet. If there's 647 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: anything to be found, it's going to rest in those areas. 648 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: I'm very curious about the extremities. I'd like to see 649 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: what was going on with them with forensics. As I 650 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: always say, your negative findings are just as important as 651 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: your positive finding. An absence of trauma to the legs, 652 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: absence of fractures in the legs, you'll be able to 653 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: kind of check off the list that he was not 654 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: standing fully erect when he was struck by this vehicle. 655 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: If he wasn't standing fully erect when he was struck 656 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: by this vehicle, can you validate this idea of a 657 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: mirror strike? And if the mirror strike is not part 658 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: and parcel of this, then how did he sustain the 659 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: head trauma? How did he sustain the injuries to his 660 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: hands into his shoulder. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 661 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: is body backs.