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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori

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Speaker 1: with you. Let me tell you a little bit about

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Speaker 1: Mark Jacobson. He was with me back a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago. Has been a working journalist for the past

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Speaker 1: forty five years. Mark is a born and bred New Yorker.

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Speaker 1: Over the years, he has been employed by the New

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Speaker 1: York magazine, Rolling Stone, Esquire, National Geographic, among other publications.

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Speaker 1: Is New York Magazine piece night Shifting for the Hip

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Speaker 1: Fleet was adapted into the long running TV series Taxi,

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Speaker 1: and in two thousand he wrote Return of Superfly, which

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Speaker 1: served as the basis for the hit film American Gangster.

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Speaker 1: Jacobson's most recent book is what We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: About Tonight, Pale Horse Writer, Mark, Welcome back and how

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Speaker 1: are things in New York? You're okay? Oh things in

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Speaker 1: New York against George. Yeah, I'm very happy to be

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Speaker 1: on Coast to Coast and makes me feel like a

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Speaker 1: person you know somebody well you are and you did

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Speaker 1: a great job for me a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I'm still getting emails about you. Oh really, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's amazing. It's amazing. We've got we've got a great

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Speaker 1: audience and everything else. But let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about Bill Cooper. You know, he had been on our

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Speaker 1: show years and years and years ago with our bell um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've seen a lot of clips of him

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Speaker 1: at conferences where he gave speeches, and he came across

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Speaker 1: as a pretty intelligent guy. But then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: I think toward the latter part of his life, I

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Speaker 1: think he kind of flipped out or something. But what

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Speaker 1: can you tell us about this guy? Well, and it's true,

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Speaker 1: he's a very intelligent guy. I mean, he was exceedingly

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Speaker 1: smart guy. I mean, and I mean his basic his

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Speaker 1: basic career is fit's the perfect second half of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century. I mean, as he's really a man of

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Speaker 1: his times. Born in nineteen forty three. He died six

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Speaker 1: weeks after nine to eleven, which She's probably most famous

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Speaker 1: for her actually predicting. His followers believe he predicted it,

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Speaker 1: and he actually, you know, as he makes they makes

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Speaker 1: a good case, and I believe it. In one of

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Speaker 1: his broadcasts a few months before nine eleven, he said,

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Speaker 1: something horrible is going to happen in this country, and

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Speaker 1: they're going to blame it an Osama bin Laden, which

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Speaker 1: is basically what happened. So, you know, he and then

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Speaker 1: six weeks later he was shot dead at his house.

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Speaker 1: And he also predicted as they're going to come up here,

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Speaker 1: and he lives on the top of a hill in Arizona,

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Speaker 1: and they said, they're going to come up here at

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Speaker 1: midnight and shoot me dead on my front doorstep. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, on the night of November fifth, two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one, the police, the Apache County Sheriff, did come

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Speaker 1: up to his house and shoot him dead on his

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Speaker 1: front doorstep at about five minutes after midnight. So he

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Speaker 1: was pretty close on that he had wounded. He had

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Speaker 1: shot a deputy in the head, didn't he Yeah, he did,

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Speaker 1: he did, and that person never really recovered from that.

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Speaker 1: That stuff is not usually mentioned in the in the

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Speaker 1: Cooper legend, but uh, you know, because I mean Bill

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Speaker 1: Cooper is kind of like a saint of you know,

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Speaker 1: over the years, and it's already now almost two years

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Speaker 1: since this book came out, um, but he remained as

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Speaker 1: popular as he ever was, probably more so, and he's

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Speaker 1: considered to be the father of what was generally referred

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Speaker 1: to as a truth movement, and he's the man, he

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Speaker 1: really is. I mean, there are others who are pretenders,

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Speaker 1: but nobody can compete with Cooper um basically because of

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Speaker 1: that book, which is which has sold over a three

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand copies, which is amazing, astounding number. Really, I

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Speaker 1: wish some are my books. Yeah, me too too, And

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Speaker 1: considering that, you know, the book has never been it's

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Speaker 1: never really gotten a fair merchandising things. For a long time,

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Speaker 1: that book was the most stolen book in the history

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Speaker 1: of Barnes and Noble, the most shoplifted book. Wow, you

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Speaker 1: couldn't buy it. It wasn't on the shelves, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it was in later and probably probably one of

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Speaker 1: the main main attractions of the Cooper legend is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Pale Horse, Ryan Behold the Pale Horse was

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Speaker 1: the number one read book in the prison systems in

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Speaker 1: the East Coast. Yeah, they love it. You know. I

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Speaker 1: still get calls from people during open lines every once

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Speaker 1: in a while about Bill Cooper. He thought he was

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Speaker 1: being personally targeted by then President Bill Clinton and the

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Speaker 1: Internal Revenue Service, and I guess he was charged with

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Speaker 1: tax evasion that's why the deputies want to get him.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that's actually not just actually not accurate.

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Speaker 1: Why were they Why were they asking to get him

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Speaker 1: because he he threatened the town doctor. Um a few

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Speaker 1: weeks before this. I mean somebody he was actually say

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Speaker 1: he did kind of flip out near the end, or

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Speaker 1: he was not acting, he was acting erratically, let's just

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Speaker 1: say that. Um. But he's up there on top of

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Speaker 1: his mountain doing his shortwave radio show too. Maybe he

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Speaker 1: used to claim that he had millions of audiences and

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Speaker 1: millions of people listening to him, but I think it's

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Speaker 1: really near the end. It was more like in the

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Speaker 1: Triple figures, you know, it wasn't that many people were

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Speaker 1: listening to him. So he's this kind of semi and saying, guy,

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Speaker 1: his wife has left him, taking his children. He's up

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Speaker 1: there by himself. He's a he's downing, uh, downing, you know,

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Speaker 1: on a bottle of Jack Daniels per day, and he's

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Speaker 1: doing his radio show and doing he was did you

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Speaker 1: ever listened to him? He's fantastic on the radio. I

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Speaker 1: mean he's really a master of the form, as good

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Speaker 1: as almost anybody. Oh yeah, when he when he didn't

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Speaker 1: use profanity. I mean he would get out of control sometimes. Yah. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know I think that if you listen to these broadcasts,

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Speaker 1: which are all available on the hour of the time website,

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Speaker 1: you know he had these, there'll be long gaps in

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Speaker 1: which time he wouldn't do a show. And according to

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Speaker 1: everybody that I talked to, that was when he was

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Speaker 1: on a bender. But then he'd come back and he'd

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Speaker 1: be great. I mean his reporting on Waco, for instance,

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Speaker 1: where he actually went to is I mean, it's as

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Speaker 1: good as anything you'll ever hear about that. It's fantastic.

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Speaker 1: I mean he's there, he's on the scene, he's doing

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Speaker 1: his newscasting thing, and you know, he's doing his Edward R.

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Speaker 1: Murrow thing at Waco, which nobody else would do, certainly

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Speaker 1: nobody in the mainstream media. And um, and he literally

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Speaker 1: provided a great service. And then he's a man of

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Speaker 1: highs and lows. Mister Cooper was you know, um And

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Speaker 1: you know, people you still get emails about him. But

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Speaker 1: I mean I get these phone calls when people call

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Speaker 1: me or email me and ask me, like, what would

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Speaker 1: Bill think about this? You know, what would he think

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Speaker 1: about the COVID nineteen what would he think about the

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Speaker 1: protests that we're going on now, And you know, the

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Speaker 1: guy's been dead for twenty years. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: he would think. But I mean, you know, I have

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Speaker 1: a stare at some cinema. You know, I can infer

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Speaker 1: from everything I know about him. More time he might

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Speaker 1: have felt about it. He'd probably he's still uppermost in

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Speaker 1: the mind of many people. He is, didn't Kim McVeigh,

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Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City bomber, listened to him religiously, well, well

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Speaker 1: religiously I don't know, but he listened to him. And actually,

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Speaker 1: according to Cooper uh and their eye witnesses, McVey actually

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Speaker 1: visited Cooper shortly before the Oklahoma City bombing and had

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Speaker 1: a long conversation with him because he wanted he kind

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Speaker 1: of wanted Cooper's blessing or his advice about what to do,

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Speaker 1: you know, whether or not he should go through with

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Speaker 1: this without actually telling Cooper what if he's complanning on doing.

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Speaker 1: And he asked Cooper, who said, he said, well, if

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Speaker 1: you got stopped by the police, um, and you were

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Speaker 1: and you were like, you know, foot of buant thoos,

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Speaker 1: what would you do? And h Cooper said, well, I

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Speaker 1: would just you know, if they had me, I would

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Speaker 1: just do what they said. He said, you wouldn't shoot

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Speaker 1: it out with them or anything like that because he

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Speaker 1: Cooper didn't know the guy was planning on Jamy obviously.

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Speaker 1: So um. And in fact, when Timms, they was apprehended

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Speaker 1: for people who know about this kind of stuff. Um,

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Speaker 1: he the sheriff came out and he actually gave himself

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Speaker 1: up even though he had a gun, and he basically,

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Speaker 1: you know, and this is the guy that wanted to

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Speaker 1: get caught. You don't you don't make it have an escape,

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Speaker 1: um vehicle with no license. I mean, you want to

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Speaker 1: get stop by the police. That's a good way to

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Speaker 1: do it, right. So um, you know, it's just Cooper

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Speaker 1: is um. I mean, he wave. He weaves in and

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Speaker 1: out of pop culture in a way that is very interesting,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I write a lot about his effect

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Speaker 1: over the hip hop community and uh and how you

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Speaker 1: named the rappers in the nineteen nineties, they were all

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Speaker 1: quoting Bill Cooper from Boutan Clan to Pop quoted him. Nas.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean everybody you know, all the big

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Speaker 1: deal buster rhymes, they all were Bill Cooper fans. So

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Speaker 1: that was kind of what got me interested in the topic.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I said, why are these um these these

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Speaker 1: New York streets guys. Yeah, so into into a guy,

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Speaker 1: a big fat guy was in top of a mountain

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Speaker 1: in Arizona, you know, and then you kind of dig

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Speaker 1: into it and it became a very I'm saying it

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Speaker 1: was a semi obsession reporting job. You know, many many

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Speaker 1: reporting jobs to get that way, as you probably know,

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Speaker 1: but this one was. This one had a special and

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Speaker 1: his little twist into it, you know. And there seems

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Speaker 1: to be some confusion mark whether you know he was

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Speaker 1: in the military what he did. Um, he claimed that

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Speaker 1: he was in the Air Force and the Navy high

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Speaker 1: up in rank. Others say that they checked into it

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Speaker 1: and he wasn't. He was like a petty officer or something. Well,

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Speaker 1: he was a pudding officer, he was. He got to

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Speaker 1: understand that Bill Cooper had a lot of enemies, including

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Speaker 1: George Knapps, my buddy, your buddy, I asked him about

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Speaker 1: Bill Cooper. Um, you know Bill Cooper, I mean, he

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Speaker 1: most of it all dates back to his time in

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Speaker 1: the UFOs because that's really where he first breaks out.

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Speaker 1: He broke out of nowhere, you know, I mean I

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Speaker 1: guess you know, the UFO community is pretty parochial. I mean, Eric,

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Speaker 1: everybody's got their little turf and people don't you know,

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Speaker 1: it's very tight and very kind of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's a degree of suspicion. I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: want to put it. I mean, you know more about

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Speaker 1: it than I do. But you know, then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, this Cooper guy shows up and he's claiming

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Speaker 1: that he has he saw all these papers when he

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Speaker 1: was working for an admiral in the Pacific Fleet, and

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Speaker 1: he knows all the stuff, you know, because he saw

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Speaker 1: these tight papers. He never produces the papers. And he

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Speaker 1: had a fantastic really one of the all time great

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Speaker 1: sighting stories with a big football sized UFO while he

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Speaker 1: was stationed on a summarine that flew over them and

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Speaker 1: then fulve into the water and came back out again.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's just and the way he tells it,

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Speaker 1: it's fantastic. I mean, you know, you're snowbound when you

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Speaker 1: hear them talk about this, because he's a great um.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's a great talker. So and then you know,

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Speaker 1: then you know, there was no rain really been proved,

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Speaker 1: so a lot of people got really mad, and he's

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Speaker 1: a very abrasive personality. People like. Even a really nice

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Speaker 1: guy like John Leer has his doubts about Bill Cooper,

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Speaker 1: you know, so, I mean John Leward is one of

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Speaker 1: the nicest guys you run across, so like um and

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Speaker 1: you know, and there were people had hated him, like

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Speaker 1: um Stan Friedman hated him. One of those guys hated

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Speaker 1: Cooper because he was getting a lot of play. I

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Speaker 1: remember Dewey Goodman. H Yeah, he used to have Cooper

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Speaker 1: on the show all the time and taking a lot

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Speaker 1: of the air out of the room. So that's partially

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Speaker 1: where the hatred of Bill Cooper comes from. But you know,

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Speaker 1: in all my research, I believe his military his military

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Speaker 1: record has printed in the back of his book is correct.

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Speaker 1: Did he ever change his views on UFOs? Mark, I mean,

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Speaker 1: being the staunch believer and then did he change later

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Speaker 1: on in life? He changed? He did? He was the

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Speaker 1: you know, he changed. He claimed that he changed his

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Speaker 1: mind about UFOs when he ran across a speech given

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Speaker 1: by John Dewey, who was a famous intellectual of a

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Speaker 1: pragmatists in nineteen seventeen. He made a speech which really

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Speaker 1: became a little known hallmark of a conspiracy movement, in

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Speaker 1: which was later picked up by Ronald Reagan a few

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Speaker 1: other people. I'm saying that, like, you know, if we

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Speaker 1: only could have an enemy from out of space, then

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Speaker 1: all humanity would would band together to fight this outsider

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Speaker 1: and we will get our differences. And this was like

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Speaker 1: a big light bulb a Cooper that the alien stuff

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Speaker 1: and ordifying saucer stuff was all a honx and that um,

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Speaker 1: it was just another control mechanism, another story for the

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Speaker 1: for the so called sheeple to to believe in and

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Speaker 1: distract them from what was really going on. He's the inventor,

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Speaker 1: or at least a popularizer of the term sheeple. I

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Speaker 1: mean he's he's kind of deep into popular culture in

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Speaker 1: the sense that, you know, he vents the idea of

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Speaker 1: every how many times you heard the words sheeple. He

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Speaker 1: also was the first person to use the term woke.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's just kind of like there in in

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Speaker 1: these and becomes more in the generic talking of the

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Speaker 1: people in the street. They've never heard of Bill Cooper,

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Speaker 1: you know, wake up sheeple, or he tis the sepul

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Speaker 1: or something like that. Um, but these are all Cooper

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Speaker 1: terms that he made up. I mean, he's he's kind

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Speaker 1: of a wizard that um at pop culture. He never

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Speaker 1: really made it during his lifetime because that book, he

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Speaker 1: never made any money out of it. Um, it's mostly

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Speaker 1: all taken by his publisher. LIGHTE Technology basically publishes um,

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Speaker 1: you know, channeling books and somebody that was coup behavioral

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Speaker 1: at channeling stuff. So you know, he's just he's a

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Speaker 1: contradictory and fascinating person and I often reposed as a

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Speaker 1: great American. Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every

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Speaker 1: weeknight at one am Eastern and go to Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast am dot com for more