1
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:06,880
Speaker 1: This episode discusses intimate partner violence and sexual assault. Please

2
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: listen with care. On April twenty seventh, twenty twenty two,

3
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,320
Speaker 1: Claudia Gutierrez took the stand at her son's murder trial.

4
00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,880
Speaker 1: She recounted how about a year and a half earlier,

5
00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,239
Speaker 1: Victor had gone missing. After he didn't come home one night,

6
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 1: she tried texting him. There was no reply. Then she

7
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:36,240
Speaker 1: texted Daisy. She figured they were together again, no reply.

8
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,920
Speaker 1: It wasn't totally unusual for him not to come home.

9
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,280
Speaker 1: He sometimes slept on the streets or stayed in motels.

10
00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,800
Speaker 1: But after a couple nights passed and Claudia still hadn't

11
00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,360
Speaker 1: seen or heard from Victor, she started to become worried.

12
00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,360
Speaker 1: She went to her local police station and filed a

13
00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,560
Speaker 1: missing person's report. It was February twenty fifth, twenty twenty one,

14
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: just two days after Day had been found dead. A

15
00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,800
Speaker 1: couple of weeks went by no sign of Victor, and

16
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 1: then Claudia told the jury she got a phone call.

17
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,119
Speaker 1: It was him. He wanted to talk and he needed money.

18
00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 1: He gave his mother his location and she agreed to

19
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,760
Speaker 1: meet him somewhere on the street. By that point, she

20
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,960
Speaker 1: must have learned that Daisy had been murdered, because when

21
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,319
Speaker 1: she met up with her son, she asked him point blank,

22
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,560
Speaker 1: did you do it? Meaning did you kill Daisy? But

23
00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,120
Speaker 1: Victor didn't respond, at least not verbally. He just lowered

24
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 1: his head.

25
00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,880
Speaker 2: For me, that is important as the prosecutor presenting evidence

26
00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,880
Speaker 2: because it's what we call an adoptive admission.

27
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 1: That's Deputy District Attorney Leslie Hinshaw. She was the prosecutor

28
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 1: on this case, and to her, this moment, this moment

29
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 1: where Victor's mother described her son hanging his head, it

30
00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 1: was a big deal.

31
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,000
Speaker 2: Basically, the theory on an adoptive admission is that if

32
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,640
Speaker 2: you didn't do it, you would say no, I didn't

33
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,880
Speaker 2: do it. What are you talking about? But when you

34
00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:18,520
Speaker 2: don't say anything, you're basically accepting the truth of it

35
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 2: without saying yes, without agreeing.

36
00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 1: As the prosecutor, Leslie had anticipated this moment. She'd interviewed

37
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,920
Speaker 1: Claudia before the trial started, and she'd questioned her on

38
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,839
Speaker 1: the stand during the preliminary hearing about seven months before that,

39
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,760
Speaker 1: and during that hearing, Claudia testified that she urged her

40
00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 1: son to do the right thing, to turn himself into

41
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,840
Speaker 1: the authorities. She said that he responded by telling her

42
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,640
Speaker 1: that he was going to do it. He was going

43
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 1: to turn himself in. That was the last time she

44
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:55,960
Speaker 1: saw him, but at trial, Claudia's recollection had become hazy.

45
00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,440
Speaker 1: When Leslie questioned her, she said she couldn't remember whether

46
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,560
Speaker 1: Victor had told her that he turned himself in. I

47
00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 1: don't remember if he said anything like that, she told

48
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:06,560
Speaker 1: the court.

49
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,760
Speaker 2: I remember being like, oh gosh, now I have to

50
00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,120
Speaker 2: impeach her, because I think I had to confront her

51
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,320
Speaker 2: with some of her statements in the past. I don't

52
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,360
Speaker 2: remember the specifics of it, but I do remember thinking

53
00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,760
Speaker 2: that she was minimizing either what Victor had said or

54
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,440
Speaker 2: done or her interaction with him. That in it of itself,

55
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,760
Speaker 2: it didn't surprise me that she did that because of

56
00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,200
Speaker 2: you know, obviously she's Victor's mother. Maybe I was being

57
00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 2: a little naive and hoping that she would just.

58
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:41,440
Speaker 1: Do what was right.

59
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,640
Speaker 2: I mean, she didn't lie. I think she I think

60
00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 2: getting up there and then seeing her son kind of

61
00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,920
Speaker 2: made her really upset. And I can't blame her for that,

62
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,760
Speaker 2: and I don't blame her for that.

63
00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,440
Speaker 1: There was another part of the story that Claudia a

64
00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,720
Speaker 1: little differently at trial. So previously she'd said that she

65
00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: gave her some five hundred dollars a few days before

66
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 1: she met up with him a second time to ask

67
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 1: if he'd done it, But at trial she said she

68
00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,599
Speaker 1: thought maybe all of these things happened during one single interaction,

69
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,240
Speaker 1: like maybe she'd asked him that question and he put

70
00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,120
Speaker 1: his head down and she didn't take that to be

71
00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,280
Speaker 1: any sort of admission of guilt, I mean, or maybe

72
00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 1: the trauma really did just play tricks on her memory.

73
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,520
Speaker 1: It's hard to unpack it either way. It was almost

74
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,359
Speaker 1: like Claudia was unsure of herself, like she was questioning

75
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,600
Speaker 1: reality itself, Like did all of these things really happen?

76
00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,200
Speaker 1: Maybe it was all just a bad dream? Was she

77
00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: really about to help convict her own son. It was

78
00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,960
Speaker 1: a tough position to be in, and Leslie knew that.

79
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:58,599
Speaker 2: She was a witness of mine, and I have compassion

80
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,200
Speaker 2: for the position that she is in in that I

81
00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 2: am asking her to testify against her son, and that's

82
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,120
Speaker 2: not an easy thing to do. To think about how

83
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,000
Speaker 2: terrible that must feel. That she knows the truth of

84
00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 2: her conversations with Victor and this is her son, and

85
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:28,039
Speaker 2: she's being asked to be the bigger person, but to

86
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,400
Speaker 2: tell on her son person that she birthed, and that's

87
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 2: a really, really tough thing to ask someone to do.

88
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,839
Speaker 1: The magnitude of this testimony was not lost on Susie.

89
00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 1: She would send me these voice memos during the trial,

90
00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 1: especially on days when I couldn't be there in person.

91
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,560
Speaker 1: She'd recap some of the testimonies and tell me how

92
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 1: she felt about everything that day as she was driving

93
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 1: home or picking up dinner. And there was something that

94
00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,640
Speaker 1: she said to me in a voice memo on the

95
00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,719
Speaker 1: day that Claudia took.

96
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,040
Speaker 3: The stand her many mothers they had tested fight amains

97
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,719
Speaker 3: their kids. That took a lot, honestly.

98
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 1: A lot of strength, I think is what she meant.

99
00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 1: And in a way, Susie saw how she and Claudia

100
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,120
Speaker 1: both had a lot in common.

101
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,400
Speaker 3: You know, Jenner, for this time, it was I guess

102
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 3: this is the first time I actually feel for her,

103
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 3: because I don't know. It was very tough to see

104
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 3: her actually facing her son and child with the jury

105
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,920
Speaker 3: with us. It was hard to see. It was hard

106
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,280
Speaker 3: to see, like you know, both of us lost our kids.

107
00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,440
Speaker 3: I lost my kids to her kids for murder, you know,

108
00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,039
Speaker 3: and it's horrible, but you know, it's more horrible to

109
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,920
Speaker 3: think your kids caught all the pain, you know, something

110
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,480
Speaker 3: I can't even imagine. So I honestly feel for her.

111
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 4: I do feel for her.

112
00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 1: I am Jen Swan from London Audio iHeart Radio and

113
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,880
Speaker 1: executive producer Parison. This is My Friend Daisy, Episode eight,

114
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:18,200
Speaker 1: Cycle of Violence. I spoke with Leslie at the Hall

115
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,440
Speaker 1: of Justice in downtown Los Angeles. It's this big granite

116
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: building from the nineteen twenties. It sandwiched between the courthouses

117
00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 1: and City Hall. Leslie was transferred here from the Compton

118
00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,440
Speaker 1: Die's office that's where she worked back when she was

119
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 1: assigned the case known as the State of California versus

120
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 1: Victor Sosa. We sat in a small meeting room. It

121
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 1: had these kid friendly illustrations on the wall and stuffed

122
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 1: animals on the couch. Leslie works on cases related to

123
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,080
Speaker 1: domestic violence and sex crimes, and it occurred to me

124
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,640
Speaker 1: that this room that we were sitting in it was

125
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: meant to make children feel comfortable talking about deeply uncomfortable subjects.

126
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 1: It made me wan under how Leslie found herself in

127
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 1: this line of work. Can you tell me how you

128
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 1: got into this, Like have you always wanted to be

129
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,760
Speaker 1: a prosecutor and how did you end up.

130
00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 5: In sex crimes?

131
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 2: So I know, I went to law school because I

132
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 2: actually wanted to work in sports. I was a sport

133
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 2: managed major in college and I wanted to be a

134
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,440
Speaker 2: general manager of a Major League baseball team.

135
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 1: That obviously did not happen because somewhere along the way,

136
00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 1: Leslie ended up taking a class on criminal procedure. She

137
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,480
Speaker 1: decided she wanted to become a public defender. Well that

138
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 1: didn't exactly pan out either.

139
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 2: The Public Defender's office didn't have any externships open, but

140
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,280
Speaker 2: the DA's office did, and I was like, well, I've

141
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 2: never had any criminal experience, so I'll go and try

142
00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,559
Speaker 2: it out. And I loved it. It was I think

143
00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,400
Speaker 2: it helped that I was watching the wire at the

144
00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,600
Speaker 2: same time, and so what I was doing was it

145
00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,920
Speaker 2: kind of mirrored what was going on in the wire

146
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,520
Speaker 2: that I was watching, and I was like, this is insane,

147
00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:05,439
Speaker 2: this is amazing.

148
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,160
Speaker 1: Leslie's been prosecuting sex crimes and domestic violence cases for

149
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,400
Speaker 1: about six years now. She said she doesn't know exactly

150
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,760
Speaker 1: why she gravitated towards it, but she thinks it has

151
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,960
Speaker 1: something to do with wanting to help vulnerable people, women, children,

152
00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,679
Speaker 1: people who don't always feel comfortable or safe identifying as victims,

153
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,960
Speaker 1: people like Daisy. I know that Susannah was trying to

154
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,720
Speaker 1: report I think it was the skateboard incident at one point,

155
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 1: and she says that she was told that she couldn't

156
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,920
Speaker 1: report it because Daisy wouldn't disclose it. Like, I'm just

157
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,200
Speaker 1: curious if that's something you've encountered where someone has tried

158
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 1: to report it and they've been told they can't report

159
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 1: it because they're a minor.

160
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,320
Speaker 2: So I don't really know what happened in that, Like

161
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 2: I don't, Yeah, I don't really know what happened specifically

162
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,520
Speaker 2: with why the deputies told her what they did, But

163
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,680
Speaker 2: generally speaking, if a victim is an adult and they

164
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,160
Speaker 2: don't want to disclose, then there's really nothing police can do.

165
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 2: Right as a child, I would think it's different. I

166
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,240
Speaker 2: would think personally that a parent or guardian could bring

167
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,800
Speaker 2: their child to the police station and say, this happened

168
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 2: to my kid. I want you to take a report,

169
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,679
Speaker 2: as the police officer, even if the child doesn't want

170
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,360
Speaker 2: to say anything. I would at least take I would think,

171
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I would want them to at least take

172
00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,560
Speaker 2: a report and then notify DCFS Department of Child and

173
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,560
Speaker 2: Family Services so that there can be some involvement in

174
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 2: figuring out what's going on.

175
00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,200
Speaker 1: But to your knowledge, there wasn't reports of domestic violence

176
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:50,360
Speaker 1: at all in this case.

177
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,960
Speaker 2: To my knowledge, there were no actual police reports of

178
00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:00,160
Speaker 2: domestic violence related to Victor and Daisy.

179
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 1: Daisy was a minor, and this system, which was supposed

180
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,400
Speaker 1: to protect her it failed. It's hard not to think

181
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,440
Speaker 1: about what might have gone differently, or if anything would

182
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,080
Speaker 1: have gone differently, if a report had been taken, if

183
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 1: just one mandated reporter, like a nurse or a social

184
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,760
Speaker 1: worker had intervened, at the very least, a report almost

185
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,560
Speaker 1: certainly would have been introduced as evidence during the trial,

186
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,520
Speaker 1: evidence that could have helped to establish a motive. But

187
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,480
Speaker 1: because no such evidence existed, and because Leslie felt that

188
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,560
Speaker 1: the DNA evidence was strong enough on its own, she

189
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,360
Speaker 1: never told the jury about the domestic violence in Victor

190
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,120
Speaker 1: and Daisy's relationship. She said she didn't realize until after

191
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,160
Speaker 1: she prepared the case that there had been a first

192
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: hand witness to at least one of these assaults, someone

193
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,920
Speaker 1: who might have been able to testify Daisy's little brother.

194
00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,240
Speaker 1: And I want to just quickly note that I'm here

195
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,800
Speaker 1: talking to a prosecutor, someone tasked with working with police

196
00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,600
Speaker 1: to enforce the law and punish those who break it.

197
00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,640
Speaker 1: But there are plenty of reasons why a person experiencing

198
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 1: intimate partner violence may not want to involve the legal

199
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,440
Speaker 1: or criminal justice system at all. I mean, for one thing,

200
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,280
Speaker 1: they might fear retaliation from their abuser, it could escalate

201
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:26,360
Speaker 1: the violence. And if there's children or a shared household involved,

202
00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 1: one partner being sent to jail could result in a

203
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,719
Speaker 1: loss of income or a loss of childcare. This is

204
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,960
Speaker 1: all to say that victims have a lot to weigh

205
00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 1: when it comes to deciding whether to disclose their abuse

206
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 1: to authorities. There are plenty of reasons for them to

207
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,880
Speaker 1: lose faith in the legal system, and in Leslie's experience,

208
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 1: that's not uncommon.

209
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:52,080
Speaker 2: With domestic violence cases. Even if there's an initial disclosure,

210
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,800
Speaker 2: you find that a lot of times there is a

211
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 2: recantation where the victim will tell us that they were

212
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 2: making up what they initially said, or they lied about it.

213
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,040
Speaker 2: You know a lot of their hesitation or the recantation,

214
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,240
Speaker 2: the reporting, and then you know saying they don't want

215
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 2: to be a part of it has to do with

216
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,840
Speaker 2: the cycle of violence that they go through. Domestic violence

217
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,800
Speaker 2: is very there's a very specific, very much studied cycle

218
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 2: of violence that happens with domestic violence victims.

219
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,960
Speaker 1: And this cycle can be really hard to break.

220
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,760
Speaker 2: The way it works is when a person has finally

221
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 2: almost like had enough, They're like, I'm done, I'm done.

222
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore. This person has hurt me enough,

223
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,559
Speaker 2: like I'm done. That's usually when they report. But then

224
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,400
Speaker 2: the person will come back and say, I'm really sorry.

225
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 2: I promise it won't happen again. That was terrible of

226
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,840
Speaker 2: me to do. I should have never done that. They

227
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 2: may buy them gifts, they may to take them out,

228
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 2: and then the victor is like, maybe this time this

229
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,440
Speaker 2: person actually will change. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is different,

230
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,800
Speaker 2: this is different this time, and then you start the

231
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,040
Speaker 2: cycle all over again, and it can be very frustrating

232
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 2: for people on the outside to look in and see

233
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,120
Speaker 2: so clearly, yet the person that you love can't see

234
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 2: it at all. You really can't force someone to get

235
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 2: out of a domestic violence relationship, because unless that person

236
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,240
Speaker 2: has a self awareness to say I can't do this anymore,

237
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 2: you may take the person out for a little bit,

238
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 2: but they're either going to go back to the person

239
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,200
Speaker 2: or they're to enter into another relationship that is just

240
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:44,600
Speaker 2: as bad.

241
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 1: There were people in Daisy's life who tried to take

242
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760
Speaker 1: her out of the relationship with Victor, who tried to

243
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,320
Speaker 1: break the cycle. And it wasn't just her own mother,

244
00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,400
Speaker 1: it was also Victor's. I discovered this while reading a

245
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 1: transcript of a conversation that happened early on in the trial.

246
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 1: The conversation was on the record, and it was between

247
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,880
Speaker 1: Leslie Henshaw, the prosecutor aj Bain, who was Victor's public defender,

248
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,600
Speaker 1: and the judge Sean Cohen. The jurors had been dismissed

249
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,480
Speaker 1: for lunch, and Leslie was telling the judge about something

250
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,400
Speaker 1: she was considering submitting as evidence, which was that when

251
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,960
Speaker 1: she interviewed Claudia several months earlier, Claudia said that there

252
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,880
Speaker 1: were times when she would hear Victor and Daisy arguing,

253
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 1: times when she saw bruises on Daisy. Claudia told Leslie

254
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,840
Speaker 1: that this was the reason She did not allow Daisy

255
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,880
Speaker 1: into her house. She wanted to prevent her son from

256
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,520
Speaker 1: being alone with her. I had known that Daisy's mother

257
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 1: had banned Victor from her home, but I did not

258
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,480
Speaker 1: know that Claudia had banned Daisy from hers. Here were

259
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,080
Speaker 1: these two mothers who, as far as I could tell,

260
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,600
Speaker 1: had never met each other. They lived in different cities,

261
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,240
Speaker 1: They lived totally different lives, but in their own way,

262
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 1: unbeknownst to each other, they were both trying to protect Daisy.

263
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,840
Speaker 1: There was something else I learned in these trial transcripts

264
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 1: that Claudia had told Leslie, which was that at one

265
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: point she drove Daisy home, and as the two of

266
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 1: them sat in the car together, Claudia told Daisy about

267
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 1: her own experience with domestic violence. She urged Daisy to

268
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 1: get out of the relationship. She also told Daisy to

269
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 1: get a restraining order against her son. Here was a

270
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 1: mother telling her son's girlfriend, pleading with her behind his

271
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 1: back to leave him, and not just to leave him,

272
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 1: but to take legal action against him. The situation was

273
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 1: that serious. Claudia sensed this, and she had tried to intervene.

274
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 1: I remember reading about this in the transcript and just

275
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 1: feeling stunned. It contured to did this image of Claudia

276
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 1: that had emerged during the trial, which was a mother

277
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,640
Speaker 1: trying to protect her son, agreeing to testify against him,

278
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 1: but then changing her story on the stand, omitting or

279
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:18,199
Speaker 1: minimizing certain details. Her testimony raised questions about whether she

280
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 1: had known about the murder before she gave Victor the money,

281
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,720
Speaker 1: whether she had helped him flee the country, and whether

282
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,440
Speaker 1: she really believed that her son had gone missing when

283
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 1: she filed that missing person's report with the police. Claudia's

284
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,200
Speaker 1: relationship with her son and with Daisy was obviously more nuanced,

285
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,199
Speaker 1: more complicated, and almost certainly more difficult than what was

286
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,640
Speaker 1: conveyed at trial. I wanted to try to understand more

287
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,719
Speaker 1: about it, to hear from Claudia outside of court, so

288
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 1: I wrote her a letter. I told her that I

289
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 1: was doing this project and that it was important to

290
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,000
Speaker 1: me to get her perspective. I told her that Daisy's story,

291
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 1: it seemed to me, was also a story about multiple

292
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 1: generations of women, mothers, daughters, women whose lives had been

293
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,960
Speaker 1: affected by various cycles of violence. I never got a response,

294
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,440
Speaker 1: and I wasn't even sure if she'd gotten the letter,

295
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,200
Speaker 1: so I decided to drive to her house one night.

296
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,360
Speaker 1: I was hoping to speak with her in person, introduce

297
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,880
Speaker 1: myself at least. I knocked on the door and she answered,

298
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 1: and when I identified myself, her face just dropped, her

299
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,119
Speaker 1: eyes started welling up. She didn't slam the door in

300
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 1: my face. She didn't seem to be angry. She just

301
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,160
Speaker 1: seemed sad. She allowed me to stand there, uncomfortably awkwardly

302
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 1: on her doorstep and ask for an interview. And she

303
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 1: listened to me, but she shook her head. No, I can't,

304
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 1: she said, I can't. It struck me just how painful

305
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,800
Speaker 1: this must have been for her on a number of levels.

306
00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,199
Speaker 1: I mean, her son had committed a murder, and the

307
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 1: person he killed was the person she had been trying

308
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 1: to protect. The day after Victor's mother took the stand,

309
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,360
Speaker 1: Leslie gave her closing argument. It was the last day

310
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 1: of a nearly two week long trial, and it was

311
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,119
Speaker 1: her last chance to convince the jury that Victor was

312
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 1: guilty of deliberate, premeditated first degree murder. Leslie started by

313
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,199
Speaker 1: recounting the last night of Daisy's life, how she and

314
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: her family had been watching television in their living room,

315
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,360
Speaker 1: how her grandfather had seen a masked man in the window.

316
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,679
Speaker 1: How Daisy kissed her mother and her grandmother goodbye and

317
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 1: said she'd be right back. How everyone went to sleep

318
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 1: and Daisy didn't come back. And then Leslie started recapping

319
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 1: the evidence. She talked about how the surveillance footage showed

320
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 1: a person dragging something near the area where Daisy's body

321
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 1: was found, how this figure appeared to have shoulder length

322
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: black hair, the same as Victor at the time, according

323
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,680
Speaker 1: to testimonies from his mother and Daisy's grandfather and Daisy's

324
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 1: neighbor Jeffrey. And then there was the adoptive admission, when

325
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 1: Victor seemed to confess to his mother by simply lowering

326
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,399
Speaker 1: his head when she asked if he had done it.

327
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 1: Leslie reminded the jury that after Daisy's murder, Victor fled

328
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: the country and changed his appearance. This is because of

329
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: what she called his consciousness of guilt, The same consciousness

330
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 1: of guilt, she argued, that led to him covering Daisy's body,

331
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 1: hiding what he had done with a rug, the rug

332
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,159
Speaker 1: that had bloodstains on it, bloodstains that presented a DNA

333
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 1: match with Victor, just like the bloodstains on the knife

334
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 1: found next to Daisy's body. Leslie pointed out that there's

335
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,159
Speaker 1: a kind of intimacy that using a knife on a

336
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 1: human body choirs a literal physical closeness to another person.

337
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: And the words that she used, the motions she made

338
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 1: with her hands when she described just how many times

339
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 1: Victor stabbed Daisy, they were haunting. They still haunt me.

340
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 1: They are lodged deep into my brain to this day.

341
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 5: You slabor broke.

342
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 6: And not only did he do that, but he also

343
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 6: stab her rightful avidity eighty times.

344
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 5: And once was it twice? It was eight times?

345
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 1: Maybe you heard me exhale after Leslie said that it

346
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 1: was an exhalation of dread. And it wasn't the first

347
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: time that I had heard this information. The medical examiner

348
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 1: had talked about it at length on the stand just

349
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: a day earlier. There were fifty eight stab wounds on

350
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 1: the right side of Daisy's skull. Fifty eight. It was

351
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 1: hard to even fathom that number, that repetition of violence

352
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 1: every single time I heard it, which is why in

353
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: this recording you might hear me literally squirming in my seat,

354
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 1: especially when Leslie started clapping her hands and counting.

355
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 6: Wow, three, three, four, six, seven, eight, not sent eleven.

356
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,719
Speaker 1: Leslie kept counting. She said every single number leading up

357
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 1: to fifty eight, every number representing a separate stab wound two.

358
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 5: Five or six or seven or eight or not or

359
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,479
Speaker 5: what for two? Or three? For four or five or

360
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 5: six or seven? For eight or nine? Fifty one?

361
00:22:54,160 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 6: It's two, it's three, it's four, it's five, six, seven, eight, fifty.

362
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 5: Fifty eight times.

363
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: Susie and her cousin were sitting in the row ahead

364
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: of me. You can hear them sniffling in this recording.

365
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: They were passing tissues to each other.

366
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 5: Now, I suspect the defense would come up here and say, well,

367
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 5: they were just superficial wounds.

368
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 6: When we did hear the corner say that, But he

369
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 6: also said that this portion of.

370
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 5: Someone's skull is one of the.

371
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 6: Hardest areas to cut through, and when he does autopsies

372
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,479
Speaker 6: on this portion of a person's skull, he will use

373
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 6: a saw.

374
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 7: So you don't use a knife at someone's head.

375
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 2: Because and cause injuries, because you want to lait at

376
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 2: that or mess with that.

377
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 5: You injure someone's head.

378
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 6: Because it is an incredibly important part of our anatomy,

379
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 6: and because.

380
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 5: You want to kill them. This injury is not one.

381
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 6: Where someone doesn't intend to kill them.

382
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 5: It is gruesome, it is horrific.

383
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 6: It is a cold and callous act to cause that

384
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 6: injury to someone, and these.

385
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 5: Injuries to a person's head is a continued, cold and

386
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 5: calculated act.

387
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:52,479
Speaker 6: The defendant committed a first degree murder when he murdered

388
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 6: Daisy Delttle.

389
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 5: He intended to kill her. He did it with a premeditation,

390
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 5: a lit and of globleness.

391
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: And then before closing, Leslie acknowledged all the stuff we

392
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: didn't know, the lingering questions the jury might still have

393
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: about things, she said, we might be able to make

394
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: inferences about, but could not definitively prove about things like

395
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: sexual assault. And I should warn you. Leslie's speech here

396
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: is graphic. It's about ninety seconds long. If you want

397
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: to just gip ahead.

398
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 5: Now.

399
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 7: There was some testimony and evidence that I submit to you.

400
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 6: I cannot explain to you. You may have reasonable inferences

401
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 6: for what it means. Daisy was found faced down with

402
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 6: her pants.

403
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 5: Pulled down.

404
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 6: Below her butttops and her sweatshirt lifted above her back.

405
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 5: You may have reasonable inferences for the defendants.

406
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 8: Epithelial DNA was found on her external genital area as

407
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 8: well as her anal opening.

408
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 5: You may have reasonable inferences for that.

409
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 6: The defendant sperm DNA was found on her tampon that

410
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 6: was still inside her body when she was found.

411
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 8: You may have reasonable inferences for that. You may wonder

412
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 8: why did Victor Sosa do this? You may wonder what

413
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 8: came first? Did he slip her throat first, or did

414
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 8: he stab.

415
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 5: Her in the head first. I can't answer those questions

416
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 5: for you.

417
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: And what about the knife? Had Victor come to Daisy's

418
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: apartment that night carrying the nine inch knife found at

419
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: the scene, or did he happen to find it laying

420
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: around near the trash bins? Was it one of the

421
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: knives that Daisy's neighbor had reportedly thrown out. Had he

422
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: grabbed it in a fit of rage? These are questions

423
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: we may never know the answer to, and according to

424
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: Leslie's theory of the case, these answers don't change the

425
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: deliberateness of the murder. She argued, quote whether he chose

426
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: to bring the knife with him, or whether he saw

427
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: the knife and chose to pick it up, those are

428
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: conscious decisions. By the time he commits the act, he

429
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: has made his decision.

430
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 7: In the end, I know that the only just result

431
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 7: that you can come to is that the defendant is

432
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 7: guilty of.

433
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 5: The premeditated, deliberate, and local murder.

434
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 6: Of Daisy dela Oh, and that the allegation that he's

435
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 6: personally used.

436
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 5: The deadly weapon a knife, and the commission of the

437
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 5: crime is true. Thank you so true.

438
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 4: In this train this time, pray yes, your.

439
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 9: Gibarian ladies and gentlemen.

440
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: Victor's public defender, A. J.

441
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 3: Bain.

442
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: He made his closing argument. Next, he argued that the

443
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: DNA testing had been faulty and basically that the whole

444
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: case was circumstantial because nobody actually saw Daisy being stabbed.

445
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: He pointed to the surveillance footage. You know it didn't

446
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: actually show anyone's face.

447
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 9: I get it. The theory is soulsa drag over by

448
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 9: the arms and that's where have his ruisin and asked

449
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 9: for this murder.

450
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 4: Posit of curve can't see any faces one too the

451
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: time does a match up? Jeffrey t.

452
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: He brought up the knife, which nobody proved had belonged

453
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: to Victor.

454
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 9: Nobody from the show's department. I thought to show it

455
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 9: to my client's mother mis guitarists, to say, hey, look

456
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 9: are you missing the sign? You might if we look

457
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 9: at your knie to see if it masks any of

458
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 9: their knife, to see if if someone who took it.

459
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 4: From your house no one showed it to miss the

460
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 4: Loewe's family say hey, you guys missing the knife. It's

461
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 4: just lazy. It's laziness.

462
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: And then he mentioned that moment that Claudia had described

463
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: that moment when she had asked her son if he'd

464
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: done it, and he bowed his head in response as

465
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: to the mom.

466
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 5: The mom was the mom.

467
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 4: She's all over the place, she says, he looks down.

468
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 4: I asked your look at mom, right? Could you tell

469
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 4: whether or not it is because he couldn't believe an

470
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 4: asse that question, or whether or not it was some

471
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 4: type of yelt So it's how you interpret it. None

472
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 4: of us are there, None of us have that you know.

473
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: Ultimately, he argued, someone else must have killed Daisy.

474
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 10: We know it's not so so because.

475
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 9: There's no motive for Sosa, that's being her boyfriend for years.

476
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 5: There's no evidence, said he.

477
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 4: Raised to answer for say, any nage in her.

478
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: Even Jefferte Leslie had believed so firmly in the strength

479
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: of the DNA evidence that she had decided not to

480
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: argue a motive, not to present any of the allegations

481
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: of violence of physical abuse. She barely mentioned Victor and

482
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: Daisy's relationship at all. It was a decision that watching

483
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: it all play out in real time had really surprised me,

484
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: and as the judge read the twelve jurors their instructions,

485
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: I started to wonder if it was a decision that

486
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: could backfire.

487
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 4: You shall now retire and select one of your number

488
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 4: to act as a four person He.

489
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 5: Or she will preside over your deliberations in order to

490
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 5: reach abert.

491
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 6: At all twelve jurors was to reach the decision into

492
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 6: any findings.

493
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: Has Everyone shuffled out of the courtroom, ending an exhausting

494
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: and deeply upsetting murder trial. I thought about Daisy, the

495
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: photo I'd seen of her on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook,

496
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: the stories I had heard about her from her friends

497
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: and family. I thought about the dms and the phone

498
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: calls from strangers all over North America, each of them

499
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: determined the catch her killer. I thought about the suffering,

500
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: the waiting, the longing, and about how all of it

501
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: had been leading to this moment. Now it was no

502
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: longer in Daisy's friend's hands. It wasn't up to the detectives,

503
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: and there was nothing more that Susie could do or

504
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: Leslie could say. Everything was in the jury's hands. That's

505
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 1: next time. A verdict has been reached against a man

506
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: accused of killing his ex girlfriend.

507
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 5: The suspect was captured after.

508
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 10: Videos on social media helped lead to his arrest in Mexico.

509
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 10: Hi everyone, this is Paris. Thanks for listening to My

510
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 10: Friend Daisy. If you are someone you love his experience abuse,

511
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 10: you are not alone. Help is available twenty four to seven.

512
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 10: Contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline for free confidential support.

513
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 10: Call eight hundred seven nine to nine seven two three three,

514
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 10: text start to eight eight seven eight eight, or visit

515
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 10: the hotline dot org your safety matters reach out today.

516
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: My Friend Daisy is a production of London Audio with

517
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: support from Sony Music Entertainment. It's reported, written and executive

518
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: produced by me Jen Swan. I'm also your host. Our

519
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: executive producers for London Audio are Paris Hilton Bruce Gersh

520
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: Bruce Robertson and Joanna Studebaker. Our executive producer for Sony

521
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: Music Entertainment is Jonathan Hirsch. Our associate producer is Zoe Coulkin.

522
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: Production assistants and translations by Miguel Contreras, Sound design, composing

523
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: and mixed by Hans Dale she Our fact checker is

524
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: Fndel Fulton. Our head of production is Sammy Allison, and

525
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: our production manager is Tamika balance Calosny. Special thanks to

526
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: Steve Akerman, Emily Rossick and Jamie Myers at Sony, Ben

527
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 1: Goldberg and Orley Greenberg at UTA, and Jen Ortiz at

528
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: The Cut