1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,679 Speaker 1: So it'd be like if my drunk neighbor is shooting 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: off his guns on a Sunday afternoon and I go 3 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: over to his house to see what's going on, and 4 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: he like gets out of six pack and says, come on, 5 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: let's let's have a couple of beers. 6 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 2: It would be like you showing up with a gang 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 2: and him feeling like he doesn't have any choice but 8 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 2: to open the door for you. 9 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 3: Good, good context. 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: You've reached American History Hotline. You asked the questions, We 11 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: get the answers, leave a message, Hey, there are American 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: History Hotliners. Bob Crawford here, thrilled to be joining you 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: again for another episode of American History Hotline, the show 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: where you asked the questions. But today I want to 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: start things off a little bit differently. I want to 16 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: ask you a question for an upcoming show. We're going 17 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: to do an episode about the New York Times list 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: of one one hundred best films of the twenty first century. 19 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: What do you think about the list? Is it accurate? 20 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: Any snubs? And what do you think should have been 21 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: voted number one best film of the twenty first century? 22 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: Give us all your hot takes. We'd love it if 23 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: you could record a video or a voice memo and 24 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: email it to American History Hotline at gmail dot com. 25 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: For all questions, it's American History Hotline at gmail dot com. Okay, 26 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: now we're going to make a hard turn to today's topic, 27 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: which is Thanksgiving. Here to help me answer this question 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: today is David J. 29 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 3: Silverman. 30 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: He's a historian and author of the book This Land 31 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: Is Their Land, The Wampanog Indians, Plymouth Colony, and the 32 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: Troubled History of Thanksgiving. He's got a new book coming 33 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: out in February titled The Chosen and the Damned Native 34 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: Americans and the Making of Race in the United States. David, 35 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us today. 36 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: It's great to be here. 37 00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 38 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: Okay, here's the question we were hoping you could help 39 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: us answer. 40 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 4: Hi, this is Jillian. 41 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 5: My question is around the origins of Thanksgiving. So Native Americans, 42 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 5: pilgrims sitting together eating dinner at a table, this narrative. 43 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 5: I'm wondering how much of it is true and why 44 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 5: it is just continued to be told as kind of 45 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 5: like the only. 46 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 4: Story that we hear about Thanksgiving and even early America. Yeah, 47 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 4: just like why this story has pervaded in history for 48 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 4: so long, and why it's still the only story surrounding 49 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 4: early Native American history that we hear in schools. 50 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: Now, David, before we jump into answering this question, can 51 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: you give us just one fact we can bring to 52 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: our Thanksgiving table this year that's going to surprise our 53 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: family members. 54 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: Sure, in direct answer to your listener's question, there was 55 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: probably no. 56 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: Table, So you're saying it was more of a buffet. 57 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: More of a buffet, it's lap eating. 58 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,839 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's start with the common narrative of Thanksgiving. 59 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: What is the story that most of us are taught 60 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: about Thanksgiving in school? 61 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: Well, the question you mentioned is part of it. To 62 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: be sure, we have this patriotic story that the Pilgrims, 63 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: folks who cross the Atlantic in search of religious freedom, 64 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: land off Cape Cod and make contact with Native people 65 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: who almost always are unidentified in the stories. They're just Indians, right, 66 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: They're supposed to be symbols for Native America and large 67 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: After some wariness between the two parties, they make contact 68 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: with one another, they become friends, and then ultimately the 69 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: story goes the English invite. This is a problem with 70 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: the story invite the native people to a harvest feast. 71 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: They break bread together, celebrate together for a few days, 72 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: and then after the dishes are cleared, the natives wave 73 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: goodbye and fade into the mist, symbolically ceding their country 74 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: to the English, so that the English can found the 75 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: United States, and the United States can begin its march 76 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: to greatness. That's the story. It's a story about bloodless colonialism. 77 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: It's a story about colonialism carrying forth the best of America, 78 00:04:54,279 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 2: religious freedom, family, peace, and ultimately democracy. It's a story 79 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: designed to make us feel proud of America and its 80 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: colonial beginnings. So what really happened, Well, not not much 81 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: of that. It is certainly true that the English of 82 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: Plymouth Colony and the native people of what's now southeastern Massachusetts, 83 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 2: the Wampanogue people, created an alliance together. That's true. It 84 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: is true that the two parties did feast together, though 85 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: the Wampanos weren't so much invited as they just showed 86 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 2: up on an announcedent. The English really had no choice 87 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 2: of the matter but to concede to them. 88 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 5: Slings. 89 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 3: Well, so I think that's good. 90 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: Let's let's kind of like dig in on that, Okay, Sure, 91 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: So they just showed up, like talk about this feast. 92 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: The doorbell rings and who's we have a caller at 93 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: this hour during our feast, Like, who's at the door. 94 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: Right, So let's sketch out the power dynamics on the 95 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 2: ground when this feast occurs. When the Mayflower lands off 96 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: Cape Cod, there's about a one hundred English passengers. By 97 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: the time this feast occurs, there's less than half that number. 98 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: Half these folks have died over the previous year. Those 99 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: who have survived have done so because the wampa Ogg's 100 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: permitted it. There was a debate within Wampenagg society over 101 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 2: the course of the year sixteen twenty one as to 102 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,119 Speaker 2: whether to wipe out this this settlement. The wampa Ogg's 103 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 2: had a one hundred year, one hundred year history with 104 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: Europeans before the arrival of the Mayflower, and by and 105 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: large that had not been a pleasant history. It had 106 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: been a history of European explorers in slaving people, in 107 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: ferrying their captives across the ocean, you know, for sale 108 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: into bondage. It had been a story about shoreline clashes, 109 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: you know, when one side read the worst into the 110 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: other's mostly unintelligible actions. But the wamp and Ogs when 111 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: the Mayflower arrived, are in a very very difficult spot 112 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: for two reasons. One is they had suffered a terrible 113 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: epidemic between sixteen sixteen and sixteen nineteen, almost certainly introduced 114 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: to them accidentally, but introduced to them by Europeans. And 115 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: this disease we don't know the name of it. I 116 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: suspect it was smallpox, but we can't be sure. It 117 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: wiped out a sizeable number of the wompon odgg people. 118 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: And when I say sizable, I'm not talking about COVID numbers. 119 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: I'm talking about more than half of the population. 120 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 3: Which is insane because COVID numbers are big, right. 121 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: But you know, our societal death rate from COVID was 122 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: less than one percent, and you saw, you know, we 123 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,119 Speaker 2: all experienced what that did to our society in this case, 124 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: and we knew what it was, right, We had a 125 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: name for it, and we had means to combat it. 126 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: Not everyone took advantage of those means, but we had 127 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: means to combat it, and you know, so on and 128 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: so forth. In this case, you know, the Wampa ogs 129 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: have been attacked by a disease with no name. They 130 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: don't know how to explain its cause, you know, it 131 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: could be witchcraft, it could be their God's punishing them 132 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: for something they did or didn't do. They simply don't know. 133 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 2: What they know is that their kin are dying all 134 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: around them. And you know, and we don't have exact 135 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: numbers as to how many people died. We have a 136 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: very kind of general numbers. But here's what I can 137 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: tell you. The English say that when they arrive in 138 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 2: this part of the world, they encounter village sites that 139 00:08:58,360 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: are covered with skeleton. 140 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 141 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: In other words, the people died where they were, and 142 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: the living were so terrified of what was happening they 143 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 2: fled the scene, which means a lot because native people 144 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: were diligent about caring for the remains of their dead. Okay, 145 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: so the Wampaagus have been depopulated, So that's the first problem. 146 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: The second problem is their narrogancet enemies to the west 147 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: have not been depopulated, and the Narragansetts take advantage of 148 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: the Wompennagu's weakness to reduce them to the status of tributaries. 149 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: So when the English arrive, the Wampadogs have a choice 150 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: to make. Do they based on this previous one hundred 151 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: years of hostility, wipe out these strangers and eliminate the 152 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 2: potential danger that they pose to Wampadag people. Or and 153 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: this is the choice that their leader, Usumquin or massasoyt 154 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: Act finally makes. Do they try to ally with these 155 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 2: folks and take advantage of their firearms, their swords, their knives, 156 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: their hatchets, and all the other goods that they have 157 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: that are of appeal to Native people. That's the choice 158 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: they make. That is the context that leads to the 159 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: First Thanksgiving. It is not a matter of the Natives 160 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: just happen to be friendly. They are in a desperate 161 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: position and they're making a strategic decision for their own preservation. 162 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: So, from the reading I've done recently Native Nations Kathleen 163 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: Duval and a few other books, one of the biggest 164 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: revelations for myself personally having a blind spot with Native 165 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: American history is that many Native American tribes thought to 166 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: themselves when the Europeans were coming, how can this work 167 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: for us? 168 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: Like? How can we use them? 169 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 5: Like? 170 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: Are there ways that we can use them for our aims? 171 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: And so it sounds like what you're telling me is 172 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: is that the Wampanogh saw this possibility of an alliance 173 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: to actually, you know, protect them from another, from from 174 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: their their enemies from another. 175 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, we have a tendency, 176 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: or at least you know, the public has a tendency 177 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: in some circles to characterize the European arrival in North 178 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: America as an invasion. And that's understandable. You know, in 179 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: in Central and South America and the Caribbean, the Spanish 180 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: conquest was just that it was. It was a military invasion, right. 181 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: And what's more, eventually in North America, once Europeans have 182 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: a beachhead on the continent, they do start conquering Native territory, 183 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: but with very few exceptions, the first colonies or owned 184 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: there at the sufferance of Native people. Native people could 185 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 2: have wiped out almost all of these places if they 186 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: had wished to do so. Generally speaking, they did not 187 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 2: wish to do so. Not at first. They would learn 188 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: that these people posed an existential threat to them. They 189 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 2: can't see that at the beginning. One of the things 190 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: we have to understand when we're accounting for Native people's 191 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: actions is that they don't see themselves as a single 192 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: group of people. They don't see themselves as Indians or 193 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: Native Americans or indigenous people or any other general category 194 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: of that sort. They are divided into hundreds of different polities, 195 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: and these polities usually are no larger than twenty or 196 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: thirty thousand people, and they're constantly at odds with one another. 197 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: So they're constantly seeking advantage against other tribes. When the 198 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: Europeans arrived, well that's your advantage, right. You can get 199 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: their military wares, you can get other trade goods that 200 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 2: will help you attract more followers to your group, and 201 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 2: you can try to enlist their soldiers in your cause. 202 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 2: And that is precisely what one native group does after 203 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 2: another after another. 204 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: So the Wampanogue and the Plymouth settlers sign a peace treaty. 205 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: So how long does this what is this treaty all about? 206 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: And how long does it last? 207 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: Well, it depends who you ask. And you know, one 208 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: of the things that we as an American society have 209 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: not done very well over the course of centuries is 210 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: ask what the wamp and Ogu's thought this peace treaty 211 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: was all about. Now, I can remember firsthand being assigned 212 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: this peace treaty as one of the earliest primary source 213 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: documents assigned to me in school. And you know, we 214 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 2: went through each each provision of the treaty or once 215 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: did we did the teacher think to ask us as students, 216 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: how might the natives have interpreted these these clauses. So 217 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 2: I'll give you an example of what we're talking about. 218 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: So there's a provision in this peace treaty. Right, you 219 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: have some of this stuff, you can you could take 220 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: it face value. We won't attack each other, Okay. I 221 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: think it's safe to assume the wamp and Ogu's agreed 222 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: to that if we're attacked by another party, we'll come 223 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: to one another's aid. Okay, that sounds exactly right. We'll 224 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: have trade with one another. Okay. But here's where it 225 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: gets tricky. Now, the wampan Ogus are subjects of King James. Well, 226 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: the Wampannoggs don't have a word for subject. They don't 227 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: have a word for it. It's not it's not a 228 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: concept to them. They have no idea who King James is, 229 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: Who's who's this guy on the other side of the ocean. 230 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: And there's simply no, no possible that even if they said, 231 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: oh yeah, yeah, sure, we subject ourselves to King James 232 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: that they understood what that meant. 233 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: Is there any way for us to know the story 234 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: from the Wampanague side? Is there is there other primary 235 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: source documentation from the womp of Inagus. 236 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: Here's what we can do. We can judge what the 237 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: treaty said versus the way the wampanoaguese behaved after the treaty, 238 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: and the Wampaagus after the treaty were signed did not 239 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: behave like they were subjects to the King of England. 240 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: What's more, you know, the treaty says that if the 241 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: Wampaoagus committed any crimes against the English, they will turn 242 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: over the accused to English justice, which is preposterous. The 243 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: English are guests in Wampanogu country. The Wampanoags are not 244 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: guests in England. The notion that they would turn over 245 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: any members of their community to a foreign people's mot 246 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 2: of justice is simple, simply nonsense. And how do we 247 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: know that? Well, for the next fifty years, whenever the 248 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: English demand the Wampa Dogs to turn over accused wrongdours, 249 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: they always say no. And when the English finally pushed 250 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: the issue, the two sides go to war. Native people simply. 251 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: You know, native people are sovereign in their own land. 252 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: They're not going to sign over their sovereignty to a 253 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: group of fifty people. 254 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: So getting back to the first Thanksgivings, as we the 255 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: popularly told patriotic tale. Now with all this in mind, 256 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: now we have all this context, talk about this this feast. 257 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: Sure, so you know, the English should been on the 258 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: brink of starvation since their arrival. They arrive late in 259 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: the year, it's too late to plant, so they have 260 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: to survive on whatever supplies they brought, whatever they can 261 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: scrub up in the cold of of a New England winter, 262 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 2: and whatever they can trade for or receive as gifts 263 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 2: from native people. And they managed to make it to 264 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: the planting season. And then they plant a bucket of 265 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: seed corn that they had stolen from a Wampadog village. 266 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: They dug up this buried seed corn and took it 267 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: with them. Eventually they pay the Wampa dogs for it. 268 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 2: But you know, initially it looks like what it was theft. 269 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: They grow crop. You know, the crop is harvested, and 270 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 2: then you know, that fall, for the first time since 271 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 2: they arrived, the English say we're gonna rest for a 272 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: couple of days. It's been a really it's been a 273 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: very hard nine or ten months. 274 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 3: And this is before the treaty. 275 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: But no, this is after the treaty as signed. So 276 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 2: you know they have this Treaty of Mutual Defense and Trade. Okay, 277 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 2: so the English start letting their hair down. There's probably 278 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: a fair amount of drinking. They engage in target practice 279 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: as part of their amusements. So in other words, they're 280 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: firing guns. The wamp and Ogs hearing these guns firing. 281 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 2: Presume I think we can assume that the colony is 282 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: under attack, and so Usamiquin or Massasoyat, the sachem or 283 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: chief of the Wamponogg people arrives at the colony with 284 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: ninety armed men. That's almost twice the size of the colony. 285 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: In almost any other colonial context, a group of ninety 286 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 2: native warriors showing up at a colony would have produced 287 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 2: a bloodbath. You know, someone would have gotten trigger happy 288 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: and everything would have gone wrong. That's not what happens here. 289 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 2: Enough trust had been cultivated between the two sides that 290 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 2: instead of firing on one another, the wampa Ogg's stay 291 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: and they contribute some venison to the meal, and the 292 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 2: two parties feast together. That's this first Thanksgiving. 293 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: So it's like the Wampanox show up. They're like, what's 294 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: all this ruckus? And the settlers are like, it's a party, 295 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: come on, right, and they can see these music video. 296 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: Right, and so let they crashed the party, and so, 297 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: you know, let's be clear, it's not like they received 298 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,239 Speaker 2: a written invitation to this event, which is you know, 299 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: kind of how the story is normally normally told here. 300 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: So it'd be like if my drunk neighbor is shooting 301 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: off his guns on a Sunday afternoon and I go 302 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: over to his house and see what's going on, and 303 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: he like gets out of six pack and says, come on, 304 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: let's let's let's have a couple of beers. 305 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 2: It would be like you showing up with a gang 306 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 2: and him feeling like he doesn't have any choice but 307 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 2: to open the door for you. 308 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 3: Good, good context. 309 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: This is American History Hotline. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Today, 310 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: my guest is David J. 311 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 3: Silverman. 312 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: He's a historian and author of the book This Land 313 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: Is Their Land, The Wampanog Indians, Plymouth Colony and the 314 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: Troubled History of Thanksgiving He's got a new book coming 315 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: out in February titled The Chosen and the Damned Native 316 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: Americans and the Making of Race in the United States. 317 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: We're talking about the origins of Thanksgiving. Remember to send 318 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: us your burning questions about American history, and also help 319 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: us out with an upcoming episode by telling us your 320 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: favorite films of the twenty first century. Record yourself using 321 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: the voice Memo app on your phone and email it 322 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: to American Historyhotline at gmail dot com. That's American History 323 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: Hotline at gmail dot com. 324 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 3: Now back to the show. 325 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: David, Thanksgiving didn't become a national holiday until hundreds of 326 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: years later during the Civil War. I was this the 327 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: time to create this holiday because of the Civil War? 328 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 2: You know, Abraham Lincoln was lobbied by this woman named 329 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 2: Sarah Josepha Hale, who, Yeah, she's kind of like the 330 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 2: opera of the nineteenth century. She starts this this magazine 331 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: for women that becomes enormously popular, and you know, among 332 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 2: the ideas that she traffics in is that the country 333 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: needs a holiday to help bridge the divisions that led 334 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: to and were perpetrating the Civil War. Thanksgiving is that idea. Now, 335 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 2: Thanksgiving had been a Yankee holiday. So the only way 336 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 2: you were going to get Thanksgiving declared as a national 337 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: holiday was for the South to have seceded when that 338 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 2: announcement is made, and you know, so Lincoln, in the 339 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 2: spirit that this idea was proposed, takes it up and 340 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: declares the holiday. Up until this point, New Englanders had 341 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: celebrated days of Thanksgiving really since the seventeenth century, and 342 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 2: it had been an English tradition too. So let's be clear, 343 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 2: this is not a tradition that begins in New England. 344 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: It stretches back into the midst of time on the 345 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 2: other side of the ocean. Let's be clear too, almost 346 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: every Native American group has days of Thanksgiving. People all 347 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 2: over the world have days of Thanksgiving, so targeting which 348 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 2: one was first is really hard. But whereas in the 349 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: colonial period, days of Thanksgiving were haphazard, they would be 350 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: announced by the government depending on the circumstances of the time. 351 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: So if there was a victory in war, the end 352 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: of a drought, what have you, the government would say, Okay, 353 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: we're going to hold the following days a day of Thanksgiving. 354 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 2: Over time, the day became standardized, and eventually people began 355 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: selling librating these days of Thanksgiving when you closed your 356 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: account books for the year, you know, usually late fall, 357 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: and you know that was a time to celebrate, so 358 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: that becomes part of the routine. But let's be clear, 359 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 2: during that period, during the seventeenth century, the eighteenth century, 360 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 2: all the way into the nineteenth century, up till nearly 361 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: the time that Lincoln makes this declaration, nobody, nobody associated 362 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 2: the Thanksgiving holiday with Pilgrims and Indians. 363 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 3: So how did this happen? 364 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: How is that connection made. 365 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: It's a couple of different ways. One has to do 366 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: with Plymouth Town's attempt to boost tourism. You know, Plymouth 367 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: Colony was a nothing place. You know, it's an underpopulated, 368 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: economically marginal colony where really only it's only important for 369 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: two reasons. One is it's the first English colony in 370 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 2: the Northeast that survives, and the second is, in sixteen 371 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: seventy five seventy six, it's the place where the Great 372 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 2: War between English colonists in New England and native people starts. 373 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: And this is the war that ends up devastating the 374 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: wamp and Dogs and giving the English effectively control of 375 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: the region. Otherwise, Plymouth gets annexed by Massachusetts in sixteen 376 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: ninety one, and that's it. It now is just part 377 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: of the mainstream of Massachusetts history. Well after the American Revolution, 378 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 2: Plymouth town is falling on hard times, and so a 379 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 2: group of men calling themselves like the Old Colony Club, 380 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: decide to start promoting the Pilgrims who had been You know, 381 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: they're an eccentric group of religious fanatics who no one 382 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 2: really paid attention to. They start promoting these guys as 383 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 2: colonial founding fathers and Plymouth's rock this you know, we 384 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: could have whole show on Plymouth Rock and the abuse 385 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: it's taken over the years, but they make up the 386 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: story that the Pilgrims landed on this rock, and they 387 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 2: try to get people to come to town and spend 388 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 2: their money so that that idea starts to start to circulate. 389 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: But the real key to associating the holiday with Pilgrims 390 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: and Indians is the publication of one of the two 391 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: primary sources of the original feast between the English and 392 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: the wamp and Ogs. The source is now called Mortz Relation. 393 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: It's a co authored piece by Edward Winslow, who was 394 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: a key figure in early Plymouth Colony and William Bradford, 395 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 2: who was the governor of the colony for a long time. 396 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 2: In this account, there's one paragraph about this feast. Likewise, 397 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: in Bradford's account to Plymouth Plantation called of Limit Plantation, 398 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: is a couple of lines about the face. Really not 399 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: a big deal. But the guy who edited this primary source, 400 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 2: he's a minister named Alexander Young. He adds a footnote 401 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: to this section, and he says in the footnote, this 402 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: was the first Thanksgiving the harvest festival of New England, 403 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: to my knowledge or to the knowledge of anyone else 404 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: who had studied the issue, no one had ever proposed 405 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 2: this idea before. 406 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 3: So what year was that? 407 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: Eighteen forty one? 408 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 3: Eighteen forty one, So you know, we're. 409 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 2: Now two hundred and twenty years after that supposed first Thanksgiving. Now, look, 410 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: I'm a historian. I work with footnotes. No one other 411 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: than fellow historians read footnotes. But somehow this footnote took 412 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 2: hold enough people read it, especially people in power, orators, 413 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: politicians and the like, that the idea started to get 414 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 2: trafficked around, so that by the time that Lincoln makes 415 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 2: his pronouncement that Thanksgiving will be a national holiday, the 416 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 2: notion that Thanksgiving began with Pilgrims and Indians had begun 417 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: to capture the public imagination. From that point forward, the 418 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 2: tie between the holiday and the mythical Pilgrim an Indian 419 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 2: story gets propagated by schools. Public schools would regularly hold 420 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: and I can remember being in one of these things 421 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: Thanksgiving pageants in which they have the kids dress up 422 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: like Pilgrims and Indians and reenact what people imagine that 423 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 2: feace would be. By the way I was a tree 424 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: in the play tells you something about my acting abilities 425 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 2: as a child. But you know, these pageants became standard fair, 426 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 2: especially in the North, until very recent times. 427 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: In Plymouth today there's a plaque that commemorates a national 428 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: day of mourning every Thanksgiving. 429 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 3: Tell us what that's all about. 430 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 2: Right, So, once the holiday of Thanksgiving gets tied to 431 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 2: the Pilgrim an Indian story, it becomes the major story 432 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: that white Americans tell themselves about the role of Native 433 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: people in the country's past. Yeah, and it's a bedtime story. 434 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: It's a fairy tale of colonists and native people making friends, 435 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: and Native people conceding to their own disposition, right, which 436 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 2: is patent nonsense. You know, Colonial America is a blood bath. 437 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 2: Quite frankly, you can narrate the history of colonial America 438 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: as one colonial Indian war after another after another after another, 439 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: you know, because colonists want Native land without Native people 440 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: on it, full stop, and Native people aren't going to 441 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 2: concede to any such a geta, So it's a war. 442 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: So Native people in the country have to listen to 443 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: this idea year after year after year. And let's be clear, 444 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 2: these Thanksgiving pageants that I mentioned, these are performed in 445 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: Native American boarding schools, right, This story is propagated two 446 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: Native kids in Native American boarding schools, never mind to 447 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: Native kids who are in majority white schools all around 448 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: the country. I have heard first and testimony from multiple 449 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: Wampanogs people about what it's like to be a school 450 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: age child in a classroom where a teacher is promoting 451 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: this nonsense, and almost invariably they say, it's followed up 452 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: by some kids saying well where are the Indians, and 453 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: the teacher saying, oh, well, they're all gone, even as 454 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: there's a Wampannog kid sitting right there who the teacher 455 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: can't conceive of as Indian because the kid doesn't fulfill 456 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: the stereotypes of Native people that Hollywood has been trafficking 457 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: in for the laste hundred years. 458 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: So it's fairly obvious why there's only one version of 459 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: this story of Thanksgiving. 460 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: Right. So fast forward to the year nineteen seventy. We're 461 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: in the middle of the Civil Rights movement. We're in 462 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 2: the early days of the Red Power movement, in which 463 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: Native activists around the country begin protesting for their own 464 00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: rights and dignity. And there's a Wampanog activist named Frank 465 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 2: James who says, you know, I've had it with this. 466 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: I simply have. He's a student of history. He had 467 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 2: been asked to speak at a statewide Massachusetts commemoration of 468 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: the founding of Plymouth Colony, and when he submitted his 469 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: speech for review, the white organizers wouldn't accept it. They 470 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: said it was too provocative. So he said, the hell 471 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,239 Speaker 2: with this. I'm gonna have my own event. I'm going 472 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: to deliver the speech, and he called the event the 473 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 2: National Day of Mourning, and he held it in Plymouth 474 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 2: Town on a hill overlooking Plymouth Rock and a replica 475 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: of the Mayflower right near a statue of Massasoiot or Usamiquin. 476 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: And you know what did he say in the speech. 477 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 2: It's not all that provocative. We have what he's fundamentally 478 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: what he says is, look, I know, for you wife, folks, 479 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: this is a day of celebration right at the beginning 480 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: of what you consider to be your civilization. But you 481 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: need to understand that this is the beginning of the 482 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: end for my people. The story that you tell as 483 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: a triumph is for us a tragedy, and we are 484 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: your countrymen and women, and our experience counts too. Furthermore, 485 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 2: he says, recognize we're still here. We we haven't gone anywhere, 486 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 2: and we still have sovereign rights that we're trying to defend. 487 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 2: Since that time, this event has grown into an annual tradition, 488 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: and Native people from all over the country and indeed 489 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: all over the world show up at this National Day 490 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 2: of Mourning rally in Plymouth Town. For some Native people 491 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 2: and Wampinog's especially, they now, instead of holding a day Thanksgiving, 492 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: hold a day morning. Some people do both, and some 493 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: people have no use for the day of morning and 494 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: hold just a traditional thanks saving. There's a range of 495 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 2: ways Native people honor this this event, but it has 496 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: become such a big deal that Pliboth Town now has 497 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 2: that plaque that you that you mentioned. 498 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: We celebrate Thanksgiving, we try to as a day of 499 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: coming together, and it seems in recent years that it's 500 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: no longer settlers and Native Americans. It's now one part 501 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: of the family who harbors certain political view views versus 502 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: the other part of the family who harbors, you know, 503 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 1: opposite political views. Is there a way we can we can, uh, 504 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: in your opinion, you know, capture this day and this 505 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: idea of coming together to to create peace amongst you know, 506 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: honor the Native Americans who who were here first, who 507 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: suffered horrible abases at the hands of Europeans, and also 508 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: learn to love our family men members who we really 509 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: disagree with. 510 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: Sure, you know, I'm not the guy to proffer up 511 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 2: solutions for the very deep and substantive political divisions in 512 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 2: our society. But let me observe this basic point about 513 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 2: those divisions. On the right, there's a belief that the 514 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 2: purpose of a history education is to cultivate patriotism. Right, So, 515 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 2: in other words, history is supposed to be in the 516 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 2: service of political aims. I'm a professional historian. I don't 517 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 2: care whether you come from the history that I write 518 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 2: that I teach feeling patriotic, antiatriot, unpatriotic, or indifferent. That 519 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 2: is neither here nor there for me. My only goal 520 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: is to capture a complex history in all of its complexity. 521 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: That's it, full stop. And I think on the left 522 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 2: side of the political spectrum, you have a wide population, 523 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 2: mostly who have been college educated and thus also take 524 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 2: that approach to the study of history. And it becomes 525 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 2: very hard to have a conversation about history and truth 526 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 2: and its role in our society when you're coming at 527 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 2: it from such polar opposite views. So back to the 528 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: issue of Thanksgiving. So what do we do with it? Look, 529 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 2: I am all in favor of getting together with family 530 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: and friends and offering thanks for what's good in our lives. 531 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 2: I think we should do it more often than just 532 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 2: once a year. And let me be clear, contrary to 533 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: some of the detractors of this book that I've written, 534 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 2: I am not calling for replacing Thanksgiving with a day 535 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: of mourning, or canceling Thanksgiving, or declaring war on Thanksgiving 536 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 2: or any such things. But here is what I am saying. 537 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 2: If we're going to invoke Pilgrims and Indians in relation 538 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 2: and Thanksgiving holiday. Let's get story straight. We're all grown ups. 539 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 2: We can deal with the truth, right, But I don't 540 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 2: think we have to do that. We know who wants 541 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 2: to talk about genocide and then serve up a meal? 542 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 4: Right? 543 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 2: How about we go back to the original Thanksgiving, which 544 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: didn't invoke Pilgrims and Indians at all, and just focus 545 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 2: on family and friends and what we're grateful for in 546 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 2: our lives. The myth of the First Thanksgiving is just 547 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 2: that it's a myth. It is not true. What's more, 548 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 2: it's an untruth that is deeply insulting to our indigenous 549 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 2: countrymen and women. And they've suffered a lot for the 550 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 2: creation of this country. They shouldn't have to revisit it 551 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 2: every single year. 552 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,919 Speaker 1: Well said, Well said, Well, David, I really appreciate you 553 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: taking the time to answer Jillian's question and being on 554 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: American History Hotline. 555 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 3: I've been talking with David J. Silverman. 556 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: He's a historian and author of the book This Land 557 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: Is Their Land, The Wampanog Indians, Plymouth Colony, and the 558 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: Troubled History of Thanksgiving. He's got a new book coming 559 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 1: out in February titled The Chosen and the Damned Native Americans, 560 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: and the making of race in the United States. David, 561 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: I wish you and yours a wonderful, peaceful thanksgiving. 562 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 2: Same to you and yours. 563 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of 564 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show is executive 565 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are 566 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 1: Jordan Runtall and Jason English. 567 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 3: Original music composed by me Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. 568 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: Our email is Americanhistoryhotline at gmail dot com. If you 569 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: like the show, please tell your friends and leave us 570 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: a review in Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. 571 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: Feel free to hit me up on social media to 572 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: ask a history question or to let me know what 573 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,919 Speaker 1: you think of the show. You can find me at 574 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: Bob Crawford Base. Thanks so much for listening. 575 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 3: See you next week.