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Speaker 1: Body bats with Joseph's gotten more. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: this happens to everyone, and speaking as a man, I

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Speaker 1: would like to think that maybe a couple of my

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Speaker 1: male brotherren out there have had the same thought that

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Speaker 1: at some point in time, when you're single in your life,

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Speaker 1: you envision yourself as living, perhaps in a cabin somewhere

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Speaker 1: by yourself, having to live off the land, or maybe

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Speaker 1: just maybe you're traveling around the world by yourself, just

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Speaker 1: drinking things in and absorbing things, or maybe something that

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Speaker 1: I know that a lot of my friends have thought

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Speaker 1: about doing. Living on a boat. Now on a boat,

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Speaker 1: and it's certainly not a boat you could live on.

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Speaker 1: It's just an old pontoon. I enjoy the piece of

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Speaker 1: the water, but I've often wondered what would it be

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Speaker 1: like even if the boat is moored in a harbor

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Speaker 1: or maybe somewhere in a boat slip and every night

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Speaker 1: you go to sleep to the sound of lapping outside

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Speaker 1: of your window, or maybe the boat is gently rocking,

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Speaker 1: and it might get to the point where you can't

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Speaker 1: sleep anywhere else because it's almost like being cradled. You're sequestered.

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Speaker 1: It's quiet, it's peaceful. Today I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: a fellow who lived that life. He was in his sixties,

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Speaker 1: successful attorney in the Boston area, and he lived on

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Speaker 1: a boat with his dogs. But there was something or

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Speaker 1: someone who visited him that, as it turned out, there

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Speaker 1: were nothing but pure evil. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is body Backs, Dave. You've ever been in a position,

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Speaker 1: I know I have where you have unexpected company that

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Speaker 1: shows up at the house and you run around the

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Speaker 1: house like a madman. Maybe the dogs start barking, and

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Speaker 1: you look out the window and you see a car

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Speaker 1: pull up in the driveway and you've got I don't know,

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Speaker 1: dirty clothes laying about, You've got unwashed dishes sitting about,

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Speaker 1: and you're running about and you're trying to get the

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Speaker 1: place straightened up because you don't know who it is.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe it's a close friend that didn't call in advance,

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Speaker 1: hate the drop in visits by the way, and you're

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Speaker 1: trying to pick up while they're trying to get there.

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Speaker 1: Has that ever happened to you? I know it's happened

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Speaker 1: to me any number of times.

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Speaker 2: Every time anybody comes to my house, Yes, every time,

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Speaker 2: and it's usually the dogs. It's yeah, because I'm dealing

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Speaker 2: with that. I'm dealing with it. Yeah, every time it's

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Speaker 2: like you say, hey, drop in. You know how I am.

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Speaker 2: I am like, I'm I live a pretty uh not

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Speaker 2: hermit like lifestyle because I don't live in a cave,

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Speaker 2: but you know, kind of like that. I always wanted

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Speaker 2: to live down a long and I mean like two

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Speaker 2: or three mile long dirt road with trees on the

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Speaker 2: sides that kind of created a tunnel and at the

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Speaker 2: very end of it was just a wall, and I

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Speaker 2: had a secret engines that went into an underground cave

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Speaker 2: that let you know, that was what I wanted. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I understand what it's like is whenever you show up

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Speaker 2: at my house, you're gonna hear clattering, You're gonna hear

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Speaker 2: stuff getting thrown into Bitter McGee's closet. Yeh, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy time. And that's what I envisioned when police,

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Speaker 2: you know what, twenty four year old son doesn't hear

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Speaker 2: from his dad for a couple of days and he

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Speaker 2: picks up the phone and calls police. Say, hey, I

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Speaker 2: have a close relationship with my dad. He's a high

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Speaker 2: flying attorney. Everybody knows who he is. Would you mind

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Speaker 2: going and checking on Joe Donahue. It's in his house boat.

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Speaker 2: It's more than the marina. Just go check on him.

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Speaker 2: I can't get him on the phone. And that's what

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Speaker 2: happened when police showed up. There's this twenty four year

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Speaker 2: old young woman and she and Norah Nelson. She's running

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Speaker 2: all over the place and police see that it is.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know what your background is with

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Speaker 2: large boats, you know, yachts in a marina. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you're aware, but.

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Speaker 1: Even I've never lived on one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine it's like. But they can tell

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Speaker 2: what's going on inside something like that. They can hear,

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Speaker 2: they can see you running back and forth because there

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Speaker 2: are windows, and they saw that. They knew something was

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Speaker 2: going on inside, and when sure, she won't.

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Speaker 1: Let him in. Yeah, and this is the you know,

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Speaker 1: the and unfortunately we've had to mention this before. This

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Speaker 1: is the infamous welfare check that takes place. As you

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Speaker 1: had mentioned. The victim in this case, his son, who

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Speaker 1: you know, you get the impression they had pretty frequent contact,

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Speaker 1: hadn't heard from his daddy, and so he wants to

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Speaker 1: send the local constabulary out there to check, and when

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Speaker 1: they get there, you've got this woman that's running about

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Speaker 1: the boat. And you know, the thing about it is

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Speaker 1: when when you're in law enforcement, it's not like you

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Speaker 1: live with these people. It's not like you know these people.

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Speaker 1: For all you know, she's domiciled there as well. That's

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Speaker 1: the working assumption. They're not going to know whether or

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Speaker 1: not this twenty this woman that's in her mid twenties

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Speaker 1: is living on the boat with this gentleman that is

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Speaker 1: north of sixty. Maybe they do have some kind of

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Speaker 1: arrangement like that. You know, if the sun had been there,

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Speaker 1: the son might have said, who is this person? Why

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Speaker 1: are they there? But you know, the police are having

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Speaker 1: to go from from the perspective of, well, she's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be there, and to make matters worse if I'm

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Speaker 1: not mistaken. As it turned out now her name is Nora.

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Speaker 1: Now it turns out she misidentified herself. And say misidentified

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Speaker 1: implies that you have made a mistake. And I hate

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Speaker 1: it when people use the term, well it was a mistake.

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Speaker 1: You know many people out there say I made a mistake.

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Speaker 1: It's like, now, you didn't make a mistake. You intentionally

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Speaker 1: did this? You lied?

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Speaker 2: You.

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Speaker 1: They don't know the word, They don't understand the meaning

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Speaker 1: of the word mistake. Yeah, this happens in life throughout.

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Speaker 2: But you know, what police know is that if you

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Speaker 2: lie to them about your name, if you give them

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Speaker 2: a name that is anything other than your own, chances

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Speaker 2: are there's a reason for it. And in this case,

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Speaker 2: Norah Nelson, she has a restaurants out for her, you know,

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Speaker 2: and so they actually picked her up on another charge

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Speaker 2: before they charged her with what we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about today. It's a crazy way to start things off.

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Speaker 2: But when police show up to do a welfare check

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Speaker 2: and there's somebody that's not letting them in the door, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's going to be just a tad of a problem.

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Speaker 2: Especially you got a sixty five year old attorney, You've

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Speaker 2: got a twenty four year old former ballerina greeting you

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Speaker 2: at the door, and lo and behold, it looks like

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Speaker 2: some of her pink fingernails are ripped out of her hand.

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Speaker 2: So they've got a lot going on in a very

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Speaker 2: small area, Joe. But police did get inside and they

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Speaker 2: went you know, you've talked about shotgun houses and things

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Speaker 2: like that, whenever that kicked. You're getting on a yacht,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know because I've actually never been on

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Speaker 2: a yacht. I've seen them on TV, but that's about it.

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Speaker 2: But I'm going to go out and get into the

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Speaker 2: galley area or a door, and I'm going to guess

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Speaker 2: that you're going to be able to see from one

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Speaker 2: end of the boat to the other.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most of the time you can, unless it's some

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Speaker 1: one of these gigantic things that has a central hallway

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Speaker 1: that has little you know, hallways that run off of it.

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Speaker 1: But if that's the if that's what you're thinking about,

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Speaker 1: that would be a massive, a massive, you know, a vessel.

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Speaker 1: In this case, it's not a sailboat. This guy lives

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Speaker 1: on and so it's not I mean, I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: it's not a bad place to live. I'm sure it's

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Speaker 1: quite nice, but it's not like a super yacht, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not like the thing that I think it was

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Speaker 1: Bezos that if you, I don't know, if you remember

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Speaker 1: the story, it blew my mind. The boat that he

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Speaker 1: had commissioned, did you hear this? The boat that he

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Speaker 1: had commissioned was actually so large they couldn't get it

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Speaker 1: out of the mooring area that we're going to have

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Speaker 1: to disassemble an ancient bridge in the in the location

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Speaker 1: that the same It wasn't like that, all right. We're

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Speaker 1: not talking about the q E two here.

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Speaker 2: Or anything you give to the who has everything a

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Speaker 2: both that has to be disassembled for delivery? Hey can

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Speaker 2: Amazon deliver this? Let's find out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like building a It's like building a submarine

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Speaker 1: in a swimming pool. You know, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: much good it's going to do you, but hey, you

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Speaker 1: got a submarine. But yeah, and here's another thing also

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Speaker 1: that again, you don't go into an environment like this

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Speaker 1: as a police officer. And I like to show love

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Speaker 1: to uniform police officers in particular because I teach them,

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Speaker 1: and I when I teach them at the academy, those

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Speaker 1: kids that are just entering into the world of law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: I tell them that you might not perceive yourself as

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Speaker 1: an investigator, but you truly are. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: you're first and foremost among all investigators because you're the

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Speaker 1: initial point of contact and that information that you glean

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Speaker 1: from any witnesses or potential suspects at the scene is

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Speaker 1: very important to what other people are going to do,

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Speaker 1: whether it's the forensics people or whether it's a homicide

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Speaker 1: detective or burglary detective, whatever, because most of us don't

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Speaker 1: show up, you know, sometimes for an hour after the

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Speaker 1: initial event has occurred. So that bit of information that

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Speaker 1: comes into them at that moment is crucial. And here's

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Speaker 1: a nugget about this case, Dave, that is kind of interesting.

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Speaker 1: When she Nora after she had given a false name

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Speaker 1: and misidentified herself or intentionally misidentified herself. I'm stumbling over

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Speaker 1: my words here. She told them when asked, you know,

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Speaker 1: she's like, they're like, well, where is he? And she says, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's at a strip club. Okay. Now, I say, in

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Speaker 1: this sixty five your old guys don't go to strip clubs, okay.

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Speaker 1: But out of all of the choices in the world,

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Speaker 1: you know, he hadn't gone down the whole foods, he

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Speaker 1: hadn't gone down the local coffee shop. You know, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't out eating eating lunch with a buddy from work.

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Speaker 1: Now he had gone to a strip club. So that's

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Speaker 1: your default position here. You're going to tell us that

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Speaker 1: he's gone to a strip club because you know, let's

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Speaker 1: think about it. If you're truly planning something out, are you,

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Speaker 1: Why in the world would you send Why in the

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Speaker 1: world would you put the police on the scent of

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Speaker 1: sending him to a strip club that is arguably one

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Speaker 1: of the most observed locations that could possibly any person

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Speaker 1: could land at, because not only do you have dancers there,

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Speaker 1: you got you've got waiters, waitresses. Rather, you've also you've

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Speaker 1: also got the guys that are running the place, the DJs,

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Speaker 1: all of those sorts of people, the managers. Oh and

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Speaker 1: by the way, you got CCTV. So you're going to

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Speaker 1: do so he's gone to a strip club, that's what

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Speaker 1: you're telling us. And so when you combine and that

201
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Speaker 1: bit of information that seems obviously kind of sketchy up front,

202
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Speaker 1: when you don't give them an actual name and you're

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Speaker 1: running around like a chicken with their head cut off,

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Speaker 1: and oh, by the way, your pink probably acrylic nails

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Speaker 1: that are not actually yours are cracked off. From the beginning,

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Speaker 1: those initial point of contact investigators, they're going to know

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Speaker 1: something ain't right. David got a bit of sad news.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're my family are dog lovers, and just

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Speaker 1: like you, we we I don't go after pure breads.

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Speaker 1: I love rescues because I feel the world is full

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Speaker 1: of them and they need love. That's kind of been our

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Speaker 1: you know, our motto in the Morgan household for years

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Speaker 1: and years, and just yesterday, as we're speaking right now,

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Speaker 1: our eighteen year old eight Yeah, and I got that.

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Speaker 1: That's accurate. He's eighteen years old. Kimmy, my wife is

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Speaker 1: probably the best dog mama that has ever walked the

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Speaker 1: face of the planet. She can keep these dogs alive forever.

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Speaker 1: I've got another one that is almost nineteen at home

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Speaker 1: right now, a wheaatened terrier. But anyway, our eighteen year

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Speaker 1: old rat terrier mixed Chihuahua. He died of liver failure

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Speaker 1: yesterday and it has just absolutely broken our hearts. And

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Speaker 1: his name was Otis. My son named him when Noah

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Speaker 1: was let's say, I guess Noah was seven when he

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Speaker 1: named him. Seven or seven or six, I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: And Noah's graduated from college in just a couple of months.

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Speaker 1: So that gives you gives you an idea, Kim says,

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Speaker 1: Otis has traveled more than most people have traveled because

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Speaker 1: we take our dogs with us everywhere. I think retalied

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Speaker 1: he'd been to like thirteen or fourteen states or something

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Speaker 1: like that. Pretty amazing. But other than the fact that

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Speaker 1: Otis has passed on as a result of liver failure,

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Speaker 1: Otis was probably the best on alarm system that we

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Speaker 1: have ever had. I mean that dog. He would set

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Speaker 1: your hair on end because it was so loud and

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Speaker 1: so obnoxious anytime he heard anything. And he was one

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Speaker 1: of these animals that was constantly on alert. Now you know,

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Speaker 1: our wheatn terrier would just lay on the just lay

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Speaker 1: on his bed and he might hear something coming up

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Speaker 1: the walkway or here a door slam outside. Otis seems

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Speaker 1: like he would start barking in advance, you two blocks

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Speaker 1: in advance the person pulling up in the driveway. And

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Speaker 1: the really sad thing here, the relative to our case today,

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Speaker 1: is the fact that mister Donahue he had two little

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Speaker 1: dogs that lived with him and those were his constant companions.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when you're an investigator and you're at

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Speaker 1: a scene one of the things that you've noticed, you

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Speaker 1: will look around at home and you will see you'll

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Speaker 1: see evidence of a life lived. I like to say that,

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Speaker 1: you know it's something that's left behind dog bowls, and

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Speaker 1: that includes what they're eating, water bowls or if there's

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Speaker 1: a water dispenser, maybe a food dispenser. You also look

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Speaker 1: for toys, You look for beds, You might even look

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Speaker 1: for disruptions in furniture, and you would certainly look if

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Speaker 1: the dogs shed hair, you could you could see. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times I've sat in a

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Speaker 1: home with somebody just doing an interview and I get

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Speaker 1: up and invariably I'd be covered with pet hair, you know,

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Speaker 1: on my pants or my shirt. So it's an it's

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Speaker 1: it's evidence of a life lived. And we all, you know,

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Speaker 1: live a particular way in our homes. And from mister Donahue,

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Speaker 1: he had these animals in his house. But Dave, am

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Speaker 1: I correct in say that the dogs were not or

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Speaker 1: at least one of the dogs was not present. Is

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Speaker 1: that accurate? Yep, one was.

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Speaker 2: We don't actually know everything there is to know because

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Speaker 2: they haven't released it. But one of the dogs was missing. Uh,

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Speaker 2: they did find the dog, and we didn't even tell

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Speaker 2: you guys what we actually found when they looked down

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Speaker 2: the hallway when police finally got into the houseboat you know,

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Speaker 2: because Norah Nelson greets them at the door and we'll

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Speaker 2: let him in, and they finally, you know, that's where

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Speaker 2: she comes up with, Oh yeah, he's at strip club.

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Speaker 2: Go check him out there. And they're not buying. They're

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Speaker 2: not buying what she's selling. So they make their way

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Speaker 2: in and it doesn't take belong for them to go

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Speaker 2: in and find the victim, sixty five year old Joseph Donahue.

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Speaker 2: They find his body. It's in between his bedroom and

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Speaker 2: a patio, near a sliding glass door. There's only one dog,

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Speaker 2: and they know that he has two. They've been told

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Speaker 2: this because his son is the one that said he's divorced,

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Speaker 2: he has three adult children. He lives there by himself

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Speaker 2: with two dogs. That was the info the police had

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Speaker 2: when they got there. So they're greeted at the door

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Speaker 2: by a young woman, probably not the most uncommon thing

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Speaker 2: to a guy in his mid sixties of wealth on

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Speaker 2: a houseboat. But they only find one dog, and they

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Speaker 2: find mister Donahue and he's not having dinner. He is

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Speaker 2: in the what you call the soupine position, yeah, yes,

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Speaker 2: and he is assumed room temperature.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, face up, yeah, And you know, and the question

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Speaker 1: would be I would think that if you were a

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Speaker 1: police officer, it's one thing to watch in and find

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Speaker 1: a sixty five year old that has passed on. There

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Speaker 1: are some reasonable explanations for that. But you know, when

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Speaker 1: the police began to inspect the surrounding area, inspect his person,

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Speaker 1: there's been a blood letting, Dave, the likes of which

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Speaker 1: that uh, it's it's hard to describe, you know, how

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Speaker 1: how you know how viciously this man had been killed

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Speaker 1: on this boat, you know, And I've I'm not a

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Speaker 1: fan of small spaces. It's not my thing. That's why

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Speaker 1: I have a pontoon boat as opposed to some kind

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Speaker 1: of closed boat that's got a cuddy cabin and all

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. I like it open. I don't, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's just part of who I am. I'm

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Speaker 1: a gorphobic. I don't. I don't like people, you know,

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Speaker 1: squeezing in on me. And can you imagine having somebody

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Speaker 1: that is all indications at this point is wielding a

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Speaker 1: sharp instrument. Where are you going to go? You know,

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Speaker 1: in that tight space like that? And she's twenty four

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Speaker 1: to twenty five, she's his age less, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Even she's younger than he is.

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Speaker 1: Joe forty years younger than him, and hell is unleashed

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Speaker 1: on this fellow, and you know where's he going to go?

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Speaker 1: If she gets you backed into a corner and she's

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Speaker 1: swinging a knife at you, which we believe is what happened.

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Speaker 1: There's not too many locations that you can retreat to

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Speaker 1: to get yourself clear out of the situation. And I

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Speaker 1: want to go into his injuries that we know of

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Speaker 1: so far, But.

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Speaker 2: Before you do that, Joe, they saw blood. Police saw

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Speaker 2: a lot of blood, and you go back to the

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Speaker 2: confined area. There's just not so many places it can go.

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Speaker 2: But when police saw the blood, where did this come from?

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Speaker 2: You got to explain all these things if you're going

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Speaker 2: to claim to have an innocent reason for being there,

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Speaker 2: and then you better have an innocent reason for all

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Speaker 2: this blood that police are seeing. Do you know what

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Speaker 2: Norah Nilsen told police she was on her period, other.

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Speaker 1: Than the fact that her name was Casey as opposed.

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Speaker 2: To yeah, I'm sorry, yes, at that point, yeah, at

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Speaker 2: that point she had not She told she lied to

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Speaker 2: them to start. My name is Casey and he's at

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Speaker 2: a strip club and all this blood you see right here,

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Speaker 2: that's from I had my period and had an accident.

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Speaker 2: That's what she told them. Yeah. Now I don't know

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Speaker 2: any cop that would say, oh, that explains all the blood.

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Speaker 2: We don't need to look for a missing man anymore.

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Speaker 2: Have a great day. We'll go to the strip club

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Speaker 2: and check out that story. Casey, right right, that didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: Where's the other dog by the way?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's you know, as horrible as it is

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Speaker 1: to think about, you know, the brutality that this man

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Speaker 1: endured at her hand, allegedly, you begin to think about, well,

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Speaker 1: the other evidence that the Sun has presented to the police,

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Speaker 1: at least verbally per the welfare check request, is that

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Speaker 1: he does have these two animals, and we know that

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Speaker 1: at least one is missing. And David, you know, we

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Speaker 1: come to find out, of course that you know that

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Speaker 1: this is actually if you're not familiar with Boston, which Boston,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is one of my favorite towns in

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Speaker 1: the US. I love it. It's it's the only town

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Speaker 1: that is the size that it is that feels like

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Speaker 1: you're in a small town. I know that sounds crazy,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's like I think it's the age of

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Speaker 1: it and the way they've taken care of the town,

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Speaker 1: respected the history of it, that it's like a collection

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Speaker 1: like little villages and neighborhoods and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: I always enjoyed going to Boston.

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Speaker 2: Now, the fact that when you're when you're looking in

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Speaker 2: Boston Harbor, so all of our American history that includes

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Speaker 2: a lot of Boston and the harbors that they've actually kept.

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Speaker 2: I have never been to Boston, just so you know,

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Speaker 2: and up until this conversation, I didn't even think about

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Speaker 2: how cool it would be to see that. I always

365
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Speaker 2: think of Fenway Park, in the Green Monster and the

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Speaker 2: historgan School. But you're talking about, like you can, all

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Speaker 2: of our American history that has a touch, even Ben

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Speaker 2: Franklin in Boston. You know, you've got him learning, and

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Speaker 2: you have all of the other things of our American history,

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Speaker 2: and it's still there. I mean, they actually have kept

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Speaker 2: it alive. Like Philadelphia did with Liberty Bell, They've done

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Speaker 2: the same thing there in Boston with keeping everything attack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as a matter of fact, it's even more so

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Speaker 1: for me. It is at least with Boston. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you you walk down the streets and you know

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Speaker 1: you go to the area in particular I'm thinking about

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Speaker 1: Paul Revere's home, which is actually in Little Italy really actually, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I actually attended, we visited. We actually visited Paul Revere's

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Speaker 1: home and then walked up the street and there is

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Speaker 1: a little Italian Catholic church that we went in and

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Speaker 1: went into mass and the locals were speaking Italian to

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Speaker 1: one another. It has a charm to it, and a

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Speaker 1: little Italy kind of evolved over that area that where

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Speaker 1: Paul Revere lived, and Paul Revere's home is certainly something

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Speaker 1: to see as well. But you get a taste of

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Speaker 1: that everywhere you go. And how much more so if

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Speaker 1: you're an attorney like this gentleman that had lived there

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Speaker 1: for years and years, you know, you're kind of part

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Speaker 1: of that history. You know, in there and you're working

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Speaker 1: downtown maybe at a firm, and everywhere you go you

391
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Speaker 1: just drink it in and you see it, you know.

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Speaker 1: So it's an incredible place. And where his boat was

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Speaker 1: moored is actually Charlestown and it's one of the oldest

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Speaker 1: sections and it's a desirable area, you know, to be in.

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Speaker 1: So when you're talking about working what seemingly for the

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Speaker 1: police is a brutal homicide that is located right there

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Speaker 1: in what's referred to as Charlestown Harbors. It's pretty striking

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Speaker 1: when you think about what the police are thinking, because

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Speaker 1: this is this is not the type of event that

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Speaker 1: you expect to happen there. Okay. Now, you can go

401
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Speaker 1: to certain areas and I'm not going to name them,

402
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Speaker 1: but there are certain neighborhoods, you know, just like every

403
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Speaker 1: city does, where you know you're going to expect a

404
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Speaker 1: certain level of violent crime and maybe a certain level

405
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Speaker 1: of brutality. But to have it at this point because

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Speaker 1: first off, if you're living on a boat that's moored

407
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Speaker 1: in Charlestown like this, financially you're in a slouch. Okay,

408
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: Boston's an expensive place to live, and so you're living

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Speaker 1: in this area that doesn't know crime like this, Dave.

410
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Speaker 1: And now you've got someone that is there this present,

411
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Speaker 1: that is obviously trying to deceive you, according to the police, allegedly,

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Speaker 1: and then you you begin to try to understand the

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Speaker 1: level of brutality that you're talking about here, Joe.

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Speaker 2: When they get there and they see what appears to

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Speaker 2: be a body and it's you know, they don't get

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Speaker 2: a clear shot at the body because he's wrapped up

417
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Speaker 2: in something. Yeah, do police on the scene when they

418
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Speaker 2: show up and they see blood and they see what

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Speaker 2: they can only assume is a victim who is rolled

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Speaker 2: up in a carpet and it appears that it's been

421
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Speaker 2: duct taped and there are some weights tied in the hands.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what are they going to do? Are they

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Speaker 2: going to just cut it all open right there and

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Speaker 2: unroll it and.

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Speaker 1: See the boy? That's that's a fantastic question. As a

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Speaker 1: forensic scientist, you can imagine what our preference would be

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Speaker 1: if you suspect that it's a body, uh, and it's.

428
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: Wrapped, Please don't don't touch, right, yeah.

429
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: Look, don't touch. But you know, conversely, the police will say, well,

430
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: there's no way that we can confirm that it is

431
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: body now in this case, thing that you could because

432
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: because you know you're talking about the hands are obviously

433
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: visible and they have been weighted and specifically with what

434
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: we don't really know at this point in time. More

435
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: information is going to be released, but they've been taped. Now,

436
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: just imagine the effort that has to go through that. So, yeah,

437
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: you would initially there are places that will in fact

438
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: open up this cocooned body, open up the outer covering,

439
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: and begin to inspect the body. The preference would be

440
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: is that you note that the body is covered. You

441
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: know that there's a lot of blood. There's no I

442
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: don't care what kind of covering you put over bodies,

443
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: there's going to be blood outside of that area. The

444
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: fact that she would blame this on her mensies is

445
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: just yeah, it's as you know, it's as crazy as him.

446
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: It's crazier than him being at the strip club. That

447
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: that volume of blood that you're talking about that they

448
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: would have borne witness too, would have been explained that way.

449
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: And listen, there's part of you as an investigator, and

450
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: certainly if you want to begin to work this case

451
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: in an effective manner, you want to have as much

452
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: information as you can from Jump Street right then and there,

453
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: so you know, outcomes a knife. Perhaps you know that

454
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: you see police officers have knife that's clipped to their

455
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: belt or clipped in their pocket, and they begin to

456
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: slice open the bag or cut open anything that's holding

457
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: the bag together, and they want to peer inside and

458
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: see what they're dealing with. But my Lord Dave, when

459
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: they finally got a view of what was happening inside

460
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: of that bag and what someone had tried to shield

461
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: them from by covering this gentleman. They didn't know what

462
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: to make of it. All they knew is that this

463
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 1: was a complete and total horror show. I may have

464
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: mentioned this before, David, I have never been. I guess

465
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: I just don't have the patience for it. You would

466
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: think that being a forensics guy and looking at the

467
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: minutia that we have to deal with, I'd be a

468
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: fan of jigsaw puzzles. I never have been. It's tedious

469
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: to me for some reason. You begin to, you know,

470
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: think about putting together or trying to reconstruct problems at scenes.

471
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: But you know, there was a bit of a puzzle

472
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: that was left behind at the death scene of mister

473
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: Donahue here on his boat, and here it is. It's

474
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: actually the murder weapon. When an examination was conducted of

475
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: this gentleman's body, Dave, and just let me let this

476
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. When examination was done

477
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: of his body, this gentleman had been stabbed so hard

478
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: with a knife that in his skull the knife tip

479
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: had broken off. It had actually fractured. This is you know,

480
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: I think that People don't take me seriously when I

481
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: talk about doing head to toe X rays on bodies.

482
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: They think that it's only something that should be done

483
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: in in extreme cases. I'm a big proponent of X

484
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: raying every single body that comes through the morgue because

485
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: you know, there's certain things that we can show you

486
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: a picture of we could potentially and run the risk

487
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: in court that because the gruesome nature of it is

488
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: going to be it's going to be dismissed or they're

489
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: going to exclude it, you know, because you have to

490
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: go through all of the pictures. Did you know this.

491
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: You have to go through all of the sub crimescene

492
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: photos many times in pre trial motion, and they're going

493
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: to decide what will be admitted and what will not

494
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: be admitted. And most of the time the defense is

495
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: going to argue with crime scene photos and autopsy photos.

496
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: They'll say that, well, it's you know, it's prejudicial because

497
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: it's so gruesome. It's going to you know, they think

498
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: that the jury is going to want, you know, their

499
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: pound of flesh for it.

500
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: Never understood that. It seems to me like, if I've

501
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: got a picture of the crime scene, then yeah, if

502
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: it's too prejudicial. Maybe your guys shouldn't have done it.

503
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, that that's I think that a

504
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: reasonable person would say that. But you know, for a

505
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: defense attorney out there, they're trying everything they can to

506
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: knock holes in the case of the prosecution. And you know,

507
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: they'll say, well, the prosecution has this entire array of

508
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: scientific experts and technology and all these things. They you know,

509
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: they're going to say, well, we we want the prosecution

510
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: to do this absent all of the gruesome things that

511
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: obviously took place at the scene. But yet you know,

512
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: the defendant who is being accused is probably responsible for it. Now,

513
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: they're innocent until proven guilty. But they're going to argue that.

514
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: And I've had it happen any number of times, you know,

515
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: in cases I've been involved in. But you know, the

516
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: one thing that they can't argue with is that radio

517
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: opaque image of If you'll just if you'll just think

518
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: in your mind, if anyone in the audience has ever

519
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: seen this, or maybe you've seen this before, dave a

520
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: kind of jagged, triangular shaped tip of a blade on

521
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: an X ray. There's no blood with that. You might

522
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: see a fracture line, but there's there's nothing necessarily grotesque

523
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: about that, but it's indicative of a tremendous amount of

524
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: force because most people understand the thickness of their skull,

525
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: some more than others, and they understand what it would

526
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: take to drive a steel blade into a surface and

527
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: then snap it off. And I'm thinking, in leaving it behind.

528
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: If you're the defense this ballerina, you really think she

529
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: could stick that knife into that head and break it off.

530
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: She's dainty, she's a ballerina. She could never do this,

531
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: you really, I mean, cause it is going to take

532
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: a lot of forest show. And granted, I'm being funny

533
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: there when I say, because I have been around ballerinas,

534
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: and believe me, they're not weaklings. To be a ballerina,

535
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: you've got to be strong. Yeah, there's not an ounce

536
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: of fat on you. It's all muscle there is.

537
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: My daughter was in ballet for a long long time.

538
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: Tricked everybody. I took ballet when I was in high school.

539
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: I was the only actually only heterosexual guy in the class.

540
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: Wow, a lot of girls of my age.

541
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the right time, in the right place

542
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: to be that guy. Believe me.

543
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: There you go, that's the reason you glot so easily

544
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: across the floor, I've seen you.

545
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: But think about it when you've got that knife though,

546
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: breaking off, I mean, that's going to take some course.

547
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking, if I've got somebody I can paint

548
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: as dainty, I'm going to get the jury looking at

549
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: me like, you're right, how could because my head, you're

550
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: not going to be able to get it in there

551
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: very easy. But if you've ever got an axe stuck

552
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: into a log of wood, or a knife, if you're

553
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: trying to do some camping like that and you're trying

554
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: to get some you know how it is to get

555
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: one of those things stuck but into a head. How

556
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: difficult is it?

557
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: Joe, Well, let me let me kind of lay this

558
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: out to you, because this goes to this goes further

559
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: to how how much trauma mister Donahue had sustained Dave.

560
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: Because I think that you know that the knife to

561
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: the skull was you know, the coup de gras if

562
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: you will, that that's going to be the final act

563
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 1: in this. What had happened prior to this is that

564
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: police are describing the injuries that he had sharp force injuries.

565
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 1: They are describing them in terms of dozens, so even

566
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: still weakens over period of time. So if this blade

567
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: is being utilized and being stuck into this gentleman's body

568
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, it's going to weaken.

569
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: At some point in time, the structural as they say,

570
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 1: the structural integrity of this thing is going to begin

571
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: to break down. So when you finally get to a

572
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: bone that is as robust as what's referred to as

573
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: the external tape of the skull, if you just tap

574
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: on the top of your head, that bone in that

575
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: particular area, if it's the top of the head, is

576
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: rather robust and thick as opposed to you know, if

577
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: you think forward of your ear. Everybody talks about how

578
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: dangerous and thin the temporal bone is, and it is.

579
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: It's very thin. But on top that bone is very robust.

580
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,919
Speaker 1: So if this knife is being struck over and over

581
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: and over again into his remains or into his body,

582
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: when you finally drive that knife into his skull and

583
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: that tip breaks off, it should not necessarily be unexpected.

584
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: And then perhaps and I have no way of knowing this,

585
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: she stopped at that point in time. Allegedly, she there's

586
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: no way of knowing sequencing. However, you could go back.

587
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: This is kind of an interesting point. You can go

588
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: back and you take a look at the totality of

589
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: all of these injuries, and each one of them would

590
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: have to be closely examined. And I hope that they

591
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: did that in this case, and I suspect that they

592
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: probably did. The Boston and Me is really good. Did

593
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: you know that the nature of those injuries being generated

594
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: by this blade, their appearance will actually change if in fact,

595
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: that knife tip has broken off, has been left behind

596
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: in the skull, and then she continues to rage with

597
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: this blade on his body, the external appearance of the

598
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: injuries can change. And that would be a real puzzle

599
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: as well, because you begin to look at them, and

600
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: because you've got a jagged leading edge where that blade

601
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: has broken off, you can actually see the injury itself

602
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: as looking irregular. Now, I always describe to my students

603
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: that with a single we're not talking about a dagger,

604
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: we're talking about a single edge weapon. It almost looks

605
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 1: like a winking eye. So if you think about the

606
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: back or the you know, the that the robust, unsharpened

607
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: side of the blade, that's kind of like the inner

608
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 1: corner of an eye. Okay, when you're looking at it

609
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: from above the outer edge of the injury, it's going

610
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: to look like the outer side of your eye. It

611
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: comes to a finer point, and so I often describe

612
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: to my students that it looks like a winking eye.

613
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: You know, the nature of that can change slightly. You

614
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: can have a little abraided area if the blade is

615
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: kind of jagged and broken off at that point in time.

616
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: So that would be very interesting. And I got to

617
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: tell you when this case finally does come to trial,

618
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: that's going to be one of the questions that the

619
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: medical examiner is going to be asked while they're on

620
00:37:59,400 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: the stand.

621
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned the knife and being broken off

622
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: and trying to determine, you know, was that the last

623
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: knife wound. Well, they found you know, we mentioned how

624
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: he had two dogs. Yes, one dog was missing. They

625
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: did find that dog in the harbor, dead, floating, and

626
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 2: they did find the rest of the knife that they

627
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 2: believe they believe. You know, Now, it was interesting when

628
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: they said they believe they found the rest of the

629
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: murder weapons, because well, they have a knife they found

630
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: in the harbor, and then they have a piece of

631
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: the knife stuck in the guy's head and they can

632
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: match the two of them up. So it's not a

633
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: big leap to say this is not the Gensu knife

634
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: that was used in a TV commercial and then discarded,

635
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm thinking, did they look at those

636
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 2: because you're talking dozens of injuries to the chest, neck ahead,

637
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: did they do all that they're on the boat. Did

638
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: they start looking at those injuries there or was it

639
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 2: after because they had to get him out from that

640
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 2: cocoon of duct tape and waits on his hand, you know,

641
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: being a sad weights affixed to his body because the

642
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: person who did this murder was trying to roll the

643
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: body up, tape it up, put weights on it, and

644
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: sticking in the harbor with the dog, and that's all

645
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 2: you can think of. And didn't get that far.

646
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: Right now, if the question you're asking me, did they

647
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: ask begin to look at the skull and they said,

648
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: oh my god, you know there's a blade or something

649
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: stick it out you You might could appreciate that. I'll

650
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: tell you this very quickly. I've actually cut my hand

651
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: while examining while examining human remains, I've nicked my hand

652
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: on a broken blade before, but more frequently I have

653
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: cut my hand on human bone. If there are horrible

654
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: fractures to the skull, So as you're pal painting the

655
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: external table, and that's what it's referred to as a

656
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: fancy turn and for saying you're you're examining with your hands,

657
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: you're examining the surface of the skull. You're trying to

658
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: appreciate if there are any fractures and if there are

659
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: if there are any defects, which we've talked about before

660
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: on body bags, which are generally holes. It's a fancy

661
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: term for hole. We use it with knife defects, and

662
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: we use it with gunshot wounds as well, and there

663
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: are other things puncture wounds, that sort of thing will

664
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: call defects. But you're going to run your hand over

665
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: that area and there's a chance that you can find

666
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: this fractured area and you could feel it. Now, would

667
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: they have attempted to match us up. No, not at

668
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: the scene. As a matter of fact, they're going to

669
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: feverishly be looking for that knife. Now they will have

670
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, no pun intended here, but nautical term here.

671
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: They will search that boat from stem to stern and

672
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: if they can't find the knife there. What's your next choice, Well,

673
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: you can call the dive team and God bless us guys,

674
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: because it's not a job I would want, particularly there

675
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: in that particular harbor. You're not talking about it's not

676
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 1: like you're in Saint Croix. You're talking about a muddy,

677
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: silty bottom. You can't see, you can't see your hand

678
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: in front of your face. So a lot of you

679
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: know a lot of what is done by these divers,

680
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 1: which you know there is an entire specialty within forensic

681
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: science that is called underwater crime scene processing. You do

682
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: with your hands. You literally kind of crawl along the

683
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: silty bottom and you're feeling all along to see what

684
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: you can feel. Now, here's the other thing. The assumption

685
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: is is that moored in the same harbor area the marina,

686
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 1: if you will, there are other people living there, right, okay,

687
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: And we all know what human beings generate as they're

688
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: living in a particular area. It's garbage and it's nothing

689
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 1: to have somebody to take something and just throw it over.

690
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: How many other knives are out there? How many other

691
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: utensils are out there? Are there guns out there? I

692
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: don't know, Maybe there are I wouldn't think guns as

693
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: opposed to utensils. But there's all kinds of stuff you're

694
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: going to be putting your hands on, you know, as

695
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: you're kind of climbing along or crawling along the bottom

696
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: of this murky bottom. The fact that they found this

697
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: thing is amazing. But you know what's more amazing me

698
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: and Dave, I don't know that in any of the

699
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: cases that we've covered, I've ever heard this, and you

700
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: actually brought this out to me, And thank you for

701
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 1: telling me about this, because this is if you want friends,

702
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: if you want to get an idea how violent this

703
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: event was. Tell me again, Dave, what were the color

704
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: of those fingernails?

705
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: Pink?

706
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: Long? They were penails, And you brought this out to me, Dave.

707
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: Her fingernail had broken off in mister don Hugh's chest.

708
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 1: So we're not talking about an individual that is merely

709
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: striking him with a knife. We're talking about potentially a

710
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 1: subject that is driving her finger nails into this man

711
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: as he is being attacked so much to the point

712
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: where the nail itself snaps off. You know, I was

713
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: tempted just a moment ago when you were you know,

714
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: when we were having a discussion about matching matching this up.

715
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 1: And I would love to know how the police handle

716
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: this matching the blade up, you know, with the tip

717
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: the discovered, which is easily done, and that would have

718
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: been done. That would go to actually the tool mark

719
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: section at the at the State Crime Lab. They will

720
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: take the actual knife that they recovered off the bottom

721
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 1: and then that piece that the emmy recovered at post.

722
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: They'll send those to the tool mark section at the

723
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: State Crime Lab and the toolmark examiner will actually marry

724
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: those things up and look at the fracture line along

725
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: that and that's they spent a lot of time looking

726
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: at fracture lines, believe it or not. That's that's one

727
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: of the things that's a tedious job. I couldn't do it,

728
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: but they're really good at it. But Dave, we're talking

729
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: about a fingernail here. I wonder when they retrieve this

730
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: thing at the scene or at the morgue that was

731
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: embedded in his chest, if how good of photographs they

732
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: would have taken of her hands. Because any police department

733
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: worth their salt, one of the things that you do

734
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: with suspected perpetrators, and she is a suspect. It's my

735
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: understanding Dave, that she has in fact been charged with

736
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: mister Don Hughes's homicide, and I think.

737
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 2: That you had mentioned she.

738
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, she entered a plea of not guilty. So

739
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: my question is when they got her back to headquarters,

740
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: which they would have because they're going to try to

741
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: get a statement from her. One of the things that

742
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: is always done. You'll see this on TV and shows

743
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: that kind of you know, they'll tangentially talk about it

744
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: every now and then. Did they take photographs of her hands?

745
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about like at a distance. I'm

746
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: talking about lay your hands flat on the table. We're

747
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: going to take a superior photograph of your hand. And

748
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: then they would zoom in on that nail and they

749
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: would put a scale with it to a little measuring

750
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: device that would give you an idea of the size

751
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: of her finger. And then this this bit of nail

752
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: that was recovered. Because I've had broken nails before, not

753
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: me personally, but I've worked cases where individuals have broken

754
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: off nails, but I don't ever re recall something that's

755
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: kind of over the top like this, where you've got

756
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: this this pink color. She's you know, driving her her

757
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: nail her fingernails into the body, allegedly, and they're snapping off,

758
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: which takes some amount of force. If they're actually being

759
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: fractured and snapped off at that point in time, I'm

760
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: wondering what are the kind of injuries she had on her.

761
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,439
Speaker 1: I'm also wondering what are the kind of injuries mister

762
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: Donahue had on him? Did he have defensive ones because

763
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: they described us in the dozens day they described us

764
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: in the dozens, So are we talking about dozens of

765
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: stab wounds and cuts or sharp force injuries where he

766
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: was trying to block with his arm. Does he have

767
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: other scratches on his body? Did he have scratches on

768
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: his face where she's trying to rake his eyes in

769
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 1: some way to inflict as much damage as she possibly can. Forensically,

770
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: this case is very, very rich. There's so much to

771
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: kind of delve into, and in my opinion, in my opinion, Dave,

772
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: when you combine the trauma that mister don Hue sustained,

773
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: the fractured knife, the deposition of blood, the coverings that

774
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: are used to try to wrap his body, these weights

775
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: that were taped to his hands, and of course the

776
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: remains of this little dog and how that little dog died.

777
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: This is an evidence rich case and forensics is going

778
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 1: to tell the tale. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

779
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: is body packs