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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to this episode of The

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Speaker 1: Weekly Zeitgeist. These are some of our favorite segments from

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Speaker 1: this week, all edited together into one NonStop infotainment laugh stravaganza. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: without further ado, here is the Weekly Zeitgeist.

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Speaker 2: Well, we are.

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Speaker 1: Thrilled to be joined by an archaeologist and professor of

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Speaker 1: comparative archaeology. He's the author of books like What Makes

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Speaker 1: a Civilization, The Origins of Monsters, and co wrote what

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Speaker 1: I think is one of the best books of the

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Speaker 1: past decade, along with the late great David Graeber. It's

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Speaker 1: called The Dawn of Everything, a New History of Humanity.

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Speaker 1: It's an international bestseller. It's really a must read. Talk

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Speaker 1: about it a lot on this show.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: I read it by it just for sheer repetition of

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Speaker 3: you talking about it so much. So yes, and I'm

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Speaker 3: glad I did well. Please welcome Professor David Wengro.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: Guys, thank you. I just want to make a quick disclaim.

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Speaker 4: You know, I wrote all the really bad bits.

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Speaker 2: The bad stuff.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good, We'll only ask you about the bad parts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I guess our.

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Speaker 2: First question, what's the worst part of the book.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's a really good question. What is the

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Speaker 4: worst put now?

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, I just want to jump right into

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Speaker 1: it because we only have you for a limited time,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like I could talk to you for

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours about this book. But so your book

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Speaker 1: basically upends how we understand the history of humanity, or

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Speaker 1: at least how I did, based on a public school

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Speaker 1: education understanding of history, and the version that I had

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Speaker 1: learned from public school and then from a lot of

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Speaker 1: these popular nonfiction books like Guns, Germs and Steel, Better,

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Speaker 1: Angels of Our Nature, you know, sapiens. The version I

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Speaker 1: learned is that our current system is the result of

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Speaker 1: a sort of inevitable linear civilizational evolution, and this is

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Speaker 1: just what you're stuck with, and that's it. And those

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Speaker 1: books are written, by the way, by people who aren't

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Speaker 1: archaeologists and anthropologists like yourselves. But what does the actual

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Speaker 1: archaeological record tell us?

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Speaker 4: The first thing I would say is that I think

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Speaker 4: all human societies do this to some degree. It's not

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Speaker 4: just those of us educated in let's say a broadly

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Speaker 4: European tradition. All humans societies tell themselves stories about how

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Speaker 4: they came to be called It meth mythology, if you like.

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Speaker 4: We're not unique in that it's a very human thing

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Speaker 4: to do, and sometimes we reflect more carefully than others

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Speaker 4: about what those stories really are and what we're putting

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Speaker 4: in the minds of our kids. You know, almost from

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Speaker 4: the age that they can even receive such information. And

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Speaker 4: it so happens that the story we by which I

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Speaker 4: do now mean those of us educated in broadly European traditions,

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Speaker 4: have been telling ourselves for a very long time, probably

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Speaker 4: more than two centuries now, hasn't actually changed very much.

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Speaker 4: It starts off with people living in these tiny bands

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Speaker 4: of hunter gatherers wandering around the landscape. There's no private property,

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Speaker 4: so everything is very equal and egalitarian, and then comes

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Speaker 4: sort of fall from grace.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's almost a biblical story, or a story with biblical echoes,

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Speaker 4: where we start off in the garden of Eden, and

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Speaker 4: then there is that fateful moment when somebody somewhere invents agriculture, right,

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Speaker 4: and this is the great transition that changes everything about

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Speaker 4: how we relate to each other. Suddenly you have private property,

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Speaker 4: you can support larger populations, so cities emerge, and once

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Speaker 4: you have cities, you've got to have some kind of

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Speaker 4: central government to keep order otherwise everything is going to

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Speaker 4: fall into chaos. Then you get the origins of the state,

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Speaker 4: and by the time you get to our present world,

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Speaker 4: which is of course divided up from one end to

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Speaker 4: the other into nation states, there's this sense that somehow

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Speaker 4: it was all kind of inevitable. All the key moves

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Speaker 4: in the game were made so long ago, we're talking

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Speaker 4: about not even thousands, but ends of thousands of years ago,

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Speaker 4: that the most we can do these days is kind

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Speaker 4: of tinker around the edges of what we have, but

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Speaker 4: that essentially there is no other game in town. So

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Speaker 4: we grew up in nation states, which, as we argue

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Speaker 4: in the book, are actually politically really quite weird and

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Speaker 4: unusual structure. They combine, if you like, three basic forms

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Speaker 4: of power into one institution that we refer to as

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Speaker 4: the state. You know, everyone, everyone claims to live in

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Speaker 4: a nation state. If you don't make that claim, you're

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Speaker 4: in a very vulnerable position. You're either a refugee or

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Speaker 4: you know, in some way in search of an alternative identity.

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Speaker 4: But if you ask people to actually define what that is,

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Speaker 4: you know, what is a state? Could you give me

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Speaker 4: a short definition.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, you would have to think about it.

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Speaker 4: You would have to think about it, which is kind

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Speaker 4: of scary if you think that we you know, we

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Speaker 4: live and we grow up within these political frameworks, but

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Speaker 4: actually what are they? What do they comprise? And you know,

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Speaker 4: generally if you go to the textbooks, what you get

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Speaker 4: is a definition that looks something like this. A nation

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Speaker 4: state of the kind that we all grow up in

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Speaker 4: is sovereign. In other words, it commands its territory. It

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Speaker 4: has the legal right to defend its territory and to

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Speaker 4: use violence in order to do so. So nation states

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Speaker 4: are sovereign and they're inviolable, and if somebody invades your sovereignty,

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Speaker 4: you have the right to go to war. That's one thing.

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Speaker 4: States are complex. They're kind of complex social organism. So

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Speaker 4: you need some kind of administration or bureaucracy. Somebody has

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Speaker 4: to control knowledge at the center, just kind of keep

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Speaker 4: the wheels turning, otherwise it's all going to fall apart.

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Speaker 4: And then we have these things called elections, which are

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Speaker 4: supposed to be the same thing as democracy. Now, as

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Speaker 4: we know, this is not necessarily going the way that

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Speaker 4: a lot of people imagined democracy would go.

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Speaker 2: Would happen. We're not familiar, you wouldn't know about this,

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Speaker 2: but you know, we were in America.

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Speaker 4: In some remote, exotic parts of the world, you get

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Speaker 4: this weird phenomena where the only people who can be

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Speaker 4: elected are over one hundred years old and really strange,

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Speaker 4: and they kind of get up on stage and they

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Speaker 4: can barely make it up there, and then they give

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Speaker 4: their kind of ches and they're dribbling and it's awful.

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Speaker 1: And they have to have a personality disorder just to

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Speaker 1: get in the door. You have to like have this

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Speaker 1: weird thing where you're like, I should be in charge

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Speaker 1: of all of this, all of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: And then it's kind of like a grand sporting occasion

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Speaker 4: and everyone votes for their favorite team and they basically

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Speaker 4: get to do whatever they like, and yeah, this is

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Speaker 4: this is what some people have come to those democracy

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Speaker 4: And you know, if you put those three things together,

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Speaker 4: I guess you get a rough approximation the kind of

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Speaker 4: societies we grow up in and the kind of society

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Speaker 4: that we're educated in. And of course, like all other societies,

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Speaker 4: because we grow up in those particular frameworks, we have

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Speaker 4: a natural tendency to think of human history the same

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Speaker 4: way as if it were somehow all leading up to

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Speaker 4: this and what we're trying to do in our book,

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Speaker 4: me and my friend David Greeber in The Dawn of

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Speaker 4: Everything Is actually showed how different things really were from

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Speaker 4: this kind of familiar story. There's really been an incredible

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Speaker 4: flood of new information, i'd say, like mainly in the

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Speaker 4: last two or three decades that throws almost every aspect

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Speaker 4: of that story into dissarray. I wouldn't even know where

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Speaker 4: to begin. You're gonna have to give you some point

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Speaker 4: as it.

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Speaker 2: What is something from your search history or we added

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Speaker 2: a new wrinkle if you'd like, what the fos reason

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Speaker 2: thing that you screencapped?

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Speaker 5: Ooh, okay, so I'll give you both.

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Speaker 6: Okay, the thing I googled recently because I I fumbled.

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Speaker 6: I don't really do Saint Patrick's Day since I moved here,

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Speaker 6: but these are both Saint Patrick's Day related.

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Speaker 3: Since I think it's a non holiday, like since I

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Speaker 3: moved here, since I.

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Speaker 5: Don't respect my family.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fucked up, but I did.

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Speaker 6: I did want to pre order it for next year

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Speaker 6: because we recently we are recovering The Departed on an

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Speaker 6: upcoming episode of the Bechdel cast, and I wanted to

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Speaker 6: get the shirt that the Jack Nicholson character is killed

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Speaker 6: in the one that it just says Irish on it.

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Speaker 6: He's wearing a green T shirt that has a shamrock,

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Speaker 6: and you think it's going to say Boston, which would

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Speaker 6: be on the nose as it is, but it insteads

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Speaker 6: just as Irish underneath the shamrock.

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Speaker 5: And that's the spoiler alert for a you know, fifteen

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Speaker 5: year old movie.

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Speaker 6: He gets killed, but he he bleeds out through the

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Speaker 6: Irish shirt, and I was like, I want the Irish shirt.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really poor.

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Speaker 2: Friends.

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Speaker 1: Is he like in disguise as or something.

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Speaker 3: He's just that, he's.

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Speaker 6: Never in disguise. Frank Frank, oh, Franco or whatever his

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Speaker 6: name is is the.

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Speaker 2: He's He's Frank Costello.

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Speaker 5: He's Frank Costello. Yeah he is.

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Speaker 6: He is Irish through and through, and he doesn't care

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Speaker 6: if it's on his shirt, Which brings me to the

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Speaker 6: thing I screenshotted because I do think you know the

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Speaker 6: fact that every movie about Boston takes place at either

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Speaker 6: Harvard or in like three blocks of Southee. It troubles me.

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Speaker 6: There's so much more out there. But I every year

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Speaker 6: on Saint Patrick's Day. I like to fondly remember this

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Speaker 6: was nine years ago that in twenty fifteen, I was

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Speaker 6: working at the Boston Globe and I did a piece

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Speaker 6: where I hung out at a bar in Southey all

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Speaker 6: day on Saint Patrick's Day and wrote about what I saw,

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Speaker 6: which was people being unbelievably fucked up. And then the

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Speaker 6: day after that was published, there was a column published

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Speaker 6: in The Boston Herald that said that I was that

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Speaker 6: quoted two to three different political officials calling me a

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Speaker 6: bigot against against Irish.

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Speaker 3: I just it was.

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Speaker 6: It was really fun, headlined true life, I was a

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Speaker 6: bartender in Southe. Oh yeah, I was like Shadowy a bartender.

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Speaker 6: The post was written by Boston dot com writer Jmie Loftis.

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Speaker 6: Every day is a drunk day in Southie, but Saint

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Speaker 6: Patti's Day runs by a completely separate set of laws,

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Speaker 6: wrote Loftus, whose website bio says she is also a

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Speaker 6: stand up and sketch performer. Her take on life in

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Speaker 6: Southey didn't sit well with two of the neighborhood's most

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Speaker 6: prominent residents. I'm surprised such bigoted views are still tolerated

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Speaker 6: at Boston dot Com, said US Representative Stephen Lynch. Wow wow,

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Speaker 6: it's very disrespectful, added former Mayor Raymond L.

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Speaker 3: Floyd.

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Speaker 5: We respected.

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Speaker 6: We experienced the finest day of our life yesterday with family,

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Speaker 6: faith and friends.

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Speaker 5: We could dismiss that these comments as from uninformed people.

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Speaker 6: They don't know us. We're simple, ordinary people from South Boston.

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Speaker 6: Flynn said. It's unfortunate some people judge us, but you

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Speaker 6: can't control that. I wish they'd know us better. Mayor

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Speaker 6: Martin J.

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Speaker 5: Walsh declined comment.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, they just laid comment. How did your career

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Speaker 3: ever recover from your fucking congressman?

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Speaker 2: I flamed you.

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Speaker 6: I was at his looking at his political record is

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Speaker 6: pretty hilarious because he's just like a famously not a

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Speaker 6: great person.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, no, I mean I was crying. I called

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Speaker 5: my dad crying.

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Speaker 6: I was like, they roasted my ass in the paper,

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Speaker 6: and he is like, no, this is the best thing

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Speaker 6: that's ever happened to you.

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Speaker 5: It's funny.

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Speaker 2: Family.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: I mean you were crying.

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Speaker 1: I remember that day as well as Irish person, and

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Speaker 1: my whole family was crying as well, because because you

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Speaker 1: wrote about us because it was disrespect disrespectful.

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Speaker 5: The best day of your life with family, had the best.

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Speaker 1: Day of our life like such an overstatement, like such

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Speaker 1: a unhinged way to respond, like it's truly like a

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Speaker 1: five year old like being like, this was the best

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Speaker 1: day of my life. And then you ruined it with

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Speaker 1: this comment that people in Boston South he likes to drink.

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Speaker 2: What is that? Even where do you even get this

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Speaker 2: stuff from? He said?

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Speaker 3: The land Up guy, the guy who the guy who

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Speaker 3: assaulted Iranian American students in the seventies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so fucking wild. I mean, yeah, his record.

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Speaker 6: Is gross, like it's yeah, but I'm big at it against.

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Speaker 3: The Irish even though he was he was a said

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Speaker 3: for assaulting six Iranian students, okay, right in the seventies, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was like in seventies.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a place in the seventies. See were dropped,

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Speaker 1: they were rocked.

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Speaker 5: Good impression of Barkwalder.

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Speaker 3: Oh god, if.

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Speaker 1: I had been there on that day that she was

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Speaker 1: shadowing that bar turn, that things would have gone down

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Speaker 1: a little differently.

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Speaker 7: Bro.

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Speaker 5: Boston dot com wouldn't even exist.

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Speaker 1: It would have been written an article about how I

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Speaker 1: was working out at three three in the morning.

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Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, the tenor of that story would have

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Speaker 6: changed quite a bit if Mark Wahpber started doing push

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Speaker 6: ups in the middle.

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Speaker 2: So what's something you think is underrated?

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Speaker 8: Underrated?

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Speaker 9: I'd say changing your barber between every haircut. You know, wow,

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Speaker 9: I get, I call, I call, but stick for that

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Speaker 9: at home because Chelsea says, why would you do this?

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Speaker 9: This is a decision that will have a bearing on

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Speaker 9: your self worth and you know how you feel about

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Speaker 9: your career. Yeah, yeah, and I can appreciate it, but

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Speaker 9: you know, it's kind of I just see, I'm an opportunitist.

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Speaker 9: I see a shop and I go in, and you know,

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Speaker 9: it's if it goes badly, yeah, it's disappointing, but it's

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Speaker 9: also kind of funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an adventure. You can.

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Speaker 9: I but I had a new one the other day

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Speaker 9: and I'm like, you know, I'm I'm going I'm fitting

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Speaker 9: out hard up the front now. And I was like,

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Speaker 9: I actually, I'm going back on my own underrated thing

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Speaker 9: because I was like, oh, this guy, like I said,

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Speaker 9: I said.

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Speaker 8: To him, I said, it's crunched him up there. Let's

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Speaker 8: true carefully and the.

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Speaker 9: Guys like you know, usually the wire. Yeah, usually they're like,

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Speaker 9: oh it's okay, you know, don't worry. But this guy's like, yeah,

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Speaker 9: don't worry. It comes to everyone. Yeah, you don't even

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Speaker 9: going to give me a bone?

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, right right right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Brother, He's like, yeah, man, it looks like we're

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Speaker 3: in the ninety fifth minute here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, just like good too.

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Speaker 2: But it is an adventure getting a haircut from someone new.

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Speaker 2: Like it's just like, turns out I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: I looked like. Yeah, look like a different person if

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Speaker 2: you just changed the framing everything about me.

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Speaker 9: Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. But you know I don't I

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Speaker 9: don't want to. I don't want to go bull that's happening.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 9: If I have a good year, I think I'll get

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Speaker 9: those Biden plugs. Oh it looks.

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Speaker 8: Like it shuts down some of your other like neural faculties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to go.

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Speaker 8: When to buy as junk? I got them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Craft versus body rejected. The craft versus is my favorite.

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Speaker 2: What's something you think is overrated? Overrated?

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Speaker 8: Having a giant penis?

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Speaker 2: I think I could create problems. I don't know.

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Speaker 9: I mean I don't actually have one to those, so

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Speaker 9: I'm just gonna go with the joke. But you don't

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Speaker 9: have a JAS today. Yeah, A lot of it, A

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Speaker 9: lot of it that's coming your wise currently in a

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Speaker 9: melting scrubby Sunday.

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Speaker 3: I needed that fresh Kiwi muscle Man.

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Speaker 2: They've shipped it over double quick, so much more roomy,

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Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, because they don't tighten the skin.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, bubbles lowers and.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't sleep on my stomach without hearing light pops.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like packing bubbles.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: We love to laugh us, we have fun.

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Speaker 2: What is something you think is overrated?

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Speaker 7: I'm realizing as I say this one, I'd written it

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Speaker 7: down a thousand percent. Sure I have done this already,

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Speaker 7: but it remains true fucking taking care of yourself. I

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Speaker 7: feel like I've been like like doing like just old

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Speaker 7: man mobility stretches in the morning, drinking drinking water a

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Speaker 7: lot more and the returns are marginal.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying it, but the returns are.

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Speaker 7: And listen, there's true man, with your effort, it takes.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot more like that I want to do.

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Speaker 2: We'll say.

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Speaker 7: I'm just like, oh my god, I'm going to follow

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Speaker 7: a fucking Instagram reel of how to stretch when you're old,

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Speaker 7: and I like do it and I but here's the thing.

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Speaker 7: I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying it's overrated.

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Speaker 8: It's it's there.

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Speaker 3: Are there are some returns, but not are you still boxing?

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Speaker 2: No?

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00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 3: No, the returns better boxing? Did you feel better from

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Speaker 3: when you're training boxing?

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Speaker 2: Oh, wonderful question.

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Speaker 7: I mean, technically speaking, no, and I will say I

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Speaker 7: will say it's clear. It's clear that these are part

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Speaker 7: and parcel of things that happened whilst boxing are affecting

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Speaker 7: my need for mobility strutching. But no, I mean I

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00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 7: felt destroyed after boxing, but like not boxing and stretching

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Speaker 7: and drinking water, I only feel a little bit better.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Interesting, as I've gotten older, like a lot of the

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Speaker 1: things that are supposed to invigorate me, like doing the

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Speaker 1: plunge or drinking enough water or like working out in

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Speaker 1: the morning, now instead just make me tired. I've like

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Speaker 1: started to be like I don't think Donald Trump is

354
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 1: like right about many things, but his thing about like

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Speaker 1: how exercise like waste the energy and you only have

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Speaker 1: a certain number of heart beats in your life. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I see where I see how he got there, because

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Speaker 1: exercise is exhausting.

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Speaker 2: My body is old as fuck.

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00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, long term though, I'm sure you'll you'll you'll

361
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Speaker 3: appreciate it long term though, because even the mobility stuff,

362
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Speaker 3: you're not gonna turn stiff.

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Speaker 2: Andrew, you're shaking your head no vigorously. Here's why you don't.

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Speaker 3: Think there's any long term But if every older person

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Speaker 3: in my in my life has told me, man, at

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Speaker 3: the very least, fucking stretch because it will become.

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Speaker 8: I agree with you.

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Speaker 7: But I here's what I What I mean though, is

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Speaker 7: when you don't do it, you like have some like

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Speaker 7: you know, you have some level of regret because you

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Speaker 7: see you kind of like imagine and remember when you

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Speaker 7: were more limber and you feel yourself being old and

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Speaker 7: stiff now. But if you do stretch, you still wind

374
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 7: up pretty stiff, and all you do you're like you're

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Speaker 7: like a little more limber. Of course, again, I'm not

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Speaker 7: saying it's useless. I'm just saying the ro o I

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Speaker 7: is not what i'd hoped.

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Speaker 2: Sure, you feel a little better, but I don't think

379
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 2: you feel enough better to justify it.

380
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 1: I also think the answer is just like everybody's body

381
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 1: is so different, you know, like, yeah, the cold plunch

382
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 1: thing really seems to work for some people, and for me,

383
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: it's like somebody just like fucking shook the ship out.

384
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 1: You kind of are you going to a place to

385
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Speaker 1: plunge you?

386
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Speaker 3: No, no, no, no. We just have a pool that is.

387
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 7: Cold, but you're not doing the ship where you're putting

388
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Speaker 7: like ice in like little I'm.

389
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Speaker 1: Not cry like that, yeah, not cryo fucking myself, but

390
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: it's still just like I feel tired, and I'm like yeah,

391
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 1: because it just like flooded me with all this fucking

392
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: I don't know whatever the blood chemicals are that when

393
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: your body's like fu what you know, like stop it stop,

394
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 1: and then my body is like yeah, well that sucked.

395
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Speaker 7: All right, Yeah I need to recover for forty eight hours.

396
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, I think.

397
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 3: But yet I think it's also revealing that maybe Andrew,

398
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 3: you're one of the like the rare people who doesn't

399
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 3: have to do much to still feel okay all the time.

400
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 3: Who because I am also kind of in that world

401
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 3: too where I'm like, nah, Brian doing shit. I'm like,

402
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 3: evolutionarily speaking, they're like you had to I was like,

403
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 3: is laziness an actual positive trait evolutionarily speaking, Yeah, probably,

404
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 3: but I'm a little both.

405
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I.

406
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,640
Speaker 3: Have friends who need it and they're like, no, I'm

407
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 3: fucked up, like I have to. Yeah, And I look

408
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 3: at them, I'm like, you have to do something.

409
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 8: I do feel like I don't want to.

410
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 7: I don't want the listeners and you miles to misunderstand me.

411
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 7: I do feel like shit. I'm just saying. All I'm

412
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 7: saying is the amount that I feel like shit isn't

413
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 7: changing my stress time.

414
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'm here to say I'm one of the

415
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 2: physically exalted few.

416
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. You can just dump garbage in

417
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,719
Speaker 3: your body not do anything. I'll go back down. I mean,

418
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 3: I don't know what blood work says, but I don't do.

419
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 2: Blood. Blood work lies, Yeah.

420
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 3: Blood work lies, bleeding. The follow up full circle, All right,

421
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 3: let's take your quick break.

422
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: We'll be right back, and.

423
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: We're back and yeah, I mean, so, you know, we

424
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 1: were talking about European settlers encountering Native American ideals, and

425
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: you know, by our definition, they were further along, but

426
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: it seems like they were also further along in terms

427
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: of like they had. They were constantly going back and

428
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: forth between more authoritarian less authoritarian forms of government, I mean,

429
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: and there was just this vast kind of galaxy of

430
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: different ways that societies were organized.

431
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 2: So yeah, this is.

432
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Speaker 4: One of the kind one of the things we discovered,

433
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 4: I guess in the book that surprised us and kind

434
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 4: of intrigued us and actually inspired us to really develop

435
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 4: this project is that the whole way we think about

436
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 4: humans in societies of the distant past is basically wrong.

437
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 4: You know, we begin with these categories like people were

438
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 4: either this or they were that. You know, they were

439
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 4: either hunter gatherers or they were farmers. They were either

440
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,719
Speaker 4: living in bands or in tribes or in chiefdoms. And

441
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 4: actually what we found in the evidence of our fields

442
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 4: in archaeology and anthropology is that this really isn't the case. Actually,

443
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 4: most human societies, most of the history of our species

444
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 4: have been kind of playing with the clay. You know,

445
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 4: there'll be one of these things for part of the year,

446
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 4: then they'll switch it around. They might be very hierarchical

447
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 4: in their organization. For one part of the year. You

448
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 4: might have a police with coercive powers and whip people

449
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 4: or imprison them. But then these powers melt away, and

450
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 4: this often has to do with the actual form that

451
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 4: human society takes, which is not stable. It fluctuates. People

452
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 4: move around with the changing seasons, they change the size

453
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 4: of their groups. There'll be times of year when you

454
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 4: have a great abundance of meat and other resources. There'll

455
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 4: be other times that are lean. And people have generally

456
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 4: adapted their societies to these oscillating conditions. It's like putting

457
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 4: a mask on and taking it off where you can

458
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 4: have You don't start off with these purely egalitarian societies.

459
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 4: There are always going to be individuals who love power,

460
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 4: and there are always going to be individuals who want

461
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 4: to be flunkies. And you know that is actually very

462
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 4: hard to explain. You know, at another level is individual psychology.

463
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 4: But let's assume that there will always be a mixture

464
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 4: of people in any human group, even a family or

465
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 4: a household, some of whom tend towards that direction and

466
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 4: some of whom, let's say, are more into the caring

467
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 4: and sharing. The question is what do you do with

468
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 4: those people? What kind of institutions do you build. Do

469
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 4: you build institutions that are going to raise those ambitious

470
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 4: competitive types to the top, or do you create institutions

471
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 4: that are kind of level things out. And what we

472
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 4: discovered is that actually a huge number of societies on

473
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 4: all continents of the world have kind of done both simultaneously,

474
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 4: so they will not suppress hierarchy all of the time.

475
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 4: You might let it out in some spectacular ritual performance.

476
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 4: This is why we get these things in human history

477
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 4: that people often regard as mysteries or puzzles, the kind

478
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 4: of things that the makers of certain Netflix series like

479
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: to call all great mysteries of the ancient world.

480
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: That's got a mystery. Aliens did it right. Aliens built

481
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: all those things, I agree.

482
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 4: All the stuff that Aliens right, like Stonehenge and Egypt,

483
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 4: where you know, first you start out by sort of

484
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 4: characterizing the society as terribly, terribly primitive, and then you say,

485
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 4: but look, here's this incredibly mathematically geographic, geometrically sophisticated monument.

486
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 4: How could these idiots possibly create? Which the answer is

487
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 4: obviously they were not idiots. You know, these are people

488
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 4: who could at times create these incredibly impressive cultural creations,

489
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 4: but then at other times, you know, would actually morph

490
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: into different forms of society. This is what the anthropologist

491
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 4: Mussel Moss called the double morphology of society. You don't

492
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 4: just have one system of law or one system of

493
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 4: religion or one systems of politics. You switch things around. Now,

494
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 4: this was kind of a revelation to us because it

495
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 4: changes the whole question. You know, the big question of

496
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 4: human history is the days of the Enlightenments and Jean

497
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 4: Jacques Rousseau and people like that was about the origins

498
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 4: of inequality. How did we lose that original equality and freedom?

499
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 4: Whereas actually, starting from the earliest evidence that we can find,

500
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 4: you have to ask a different question. You have to

501
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 4: ask not so much what was the origins of inequality,

502
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 4: but how did the genie of inequality get out of

503
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 4: the bottle? Like when did those cages come down? The

504
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 4: restricted hierarchy which would always have been there, and that

505
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 4: was always the relations between adults and kids, in relations

506
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 4: of gender, in relations of domestic servitude. You know, the

507
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 4: idea that we've ever lived in societies of equals is

508
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: a little bizarre. So the question becomes more about, you know,

509
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 4: when did those cages break down? When did things like

510
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 4: private property and and patriarchy escape from those cages and

511
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 4: effectively come to dominate almost every waking moment of our

512
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 4: human lives.

513
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't like that. When we imagine them.

514
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: There's this kind of bias that you identify frequently in

515
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: the book, which is like this idea that, like you

516
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: just said, those people are idiots.

517
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: They didn't.

518
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: It was primitive, so they didn't have these elaborate systems

519
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: to keep all of these impulses that today are causing

520
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: problems for us under control. They couldn't have like just

521
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, we refuse to look back and you know,

522
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: from them, because.

523
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,719
Speaker 4: You see that thing the other day. One of the

524
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 4: authors you mentioned who wrote the Sapiens book, Yeah, you've

525
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 4: all Noah Harari, I think, yeah, yeah, there was. Someone

526
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 4: sent me a clip of an interview just recently, just

527
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 4: the other week, which went viral, and I can't remember

528
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 4: who was into being Nessahraari, but he said this thing

529
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 4: that annoyed a lot of people. It went roughly like this,

530
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 4: I hope I'm not misquoting, but he said. I think

531
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 4: the interview asked him something like, it's often said that,

532
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 4: you know, we're living in a time of great uncertainty

533
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 4: right now? Do you believe that's true? And he started

534
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 4: off as saying, well, everyone always says that about the

535
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 4: period of history that they live in. But today it's

536
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 4: actually true, for the first time in history, we have

537
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 4: no idea what to tell out it. You know, we

538
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 4: don't know what technologies are going to be relevant to

539
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 4: their lives in twenty years time. Are you falling for this?

540
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly right, concern that's what you're believing this is.

541
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 10: And then he starts talking about what things were like

542
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 10: back in the day, back in the Neolithic period or

543
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,239
Speaker 10: the Middle Ages. You know, there were certain things you

544
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 10: couldn't predict, like when the Vikings or the Mongols were

545
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 10: going to come through and radio settlement, but you knew

546
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 10: that you would still be growing wheat and raising sheep

547
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 10: in twenty years time. There were these basic things that

548
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 10: you could tell people that you knew were going to

549
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 10: be relevant. But today all of that's gone. We just

550
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 10: have no clue what's going to be right. Are you

551
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 10: buying any of this?

552
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: No, I probably would have before reading your book. But

553
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: your book does a really good job of dispelling this notion.

554
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 4: That's really telling. I mean, regardless, you know, even if

555
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 4: you haven't read that book, the implication is actually kind

556
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 4: of fascinating because it implies that there's no connection between

557
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 4: what we teach our kids and what's actually going to

558
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 4: happen in the next twenty years, right, right, Yeah, do

559
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 4: you know what I mean? It's like this idea that

560
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 4: you're kind of floating blindly into the future and you

561
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 4: could tell the kids any old thing, but all that

562
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 4: other stuff's going to happen anyway, whereas in fact, you know,

563
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 4: this is obviously nonsense. I mean, if we teach our

564
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 4: kids people didn't always raise, they didn't always grow crops,

565
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 4: you know, right, And actually, as we show in the book,

566
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 4: these were very conscious processes which sometimes people actually rejected,

567
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 4: you know, they decided they tried it on, they tried

568
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 4: it on the size, and they decided to drop it again.

569
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,479
Speaker 4: So it's partly this idea that actually goes back to

570
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 4: people like Rousseau, that we're always kind of floating blindly

571
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 4: into these traps which we're making for ourselves, but we

572
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 4: can never quite see them coming. Yeah, she is really,

573
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 4: I think, particularly right now in this historical moment, apart

574
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 4: from being just kind of wrong, is actually a pretty

575
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 4: dangerous way to look at the world, because you know,

576
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 4: you can kind of put your hands up and say, well,

577
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 4: tell our kids any old rubbish.

578
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, And just briefly so, Russeau and Hobbes

579
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: are kind of the two versions we get of that

580
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: narrative we were talking about earlier.

581
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: With Rousseau.

582
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: It's like we were living in these happy panitarian groups

583
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: and then we gave it it's the Harari like sapiens

584
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: thing where and then we decide to.

585
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 4: I think that's roughly although you know, I got to

586
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 4: tell you, Rousseau is way more interesting, Oh for sure. Yeah,

587
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 4: you know, Rousseau was not about fatalism. Rousseau is not

588
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 4: about telling us that there's always going to be this

589
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 4: boot stamping on your face and on your kid's face.

590
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 4: Is Roussel is about revolution. Roussel is about, you know,

591
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 4: trying to understand what was this liberty that we lost.

592
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 4: You can just clude what that might really be like.

593
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 2: And then Hobbes is on the Pinker side.

594
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: Hobbs is like before, like, if you think this is bad,

595
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: you should see what it used to be like. Man,

596
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: everybody would just like kill each other, and then we

597
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: had to like get these laws to keep people in.

598
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think Professor Pinker is very forthright about this.

599
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 4: He actually refers to himself as a neo hobbs.

600
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: Here, right, and he's like, and if you just look

601
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: at the record of what it you used to be,

602
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: like you'll see and then he just like quotes a

603
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: bunch of like widely debunked bullshit about how violent everything

604
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: used to be, and doesn't.

605
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 4: It Well, this is what my friend David used to

606
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 4: refer to as the extreme center.

607
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, exactly.

608
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 4: You know, you get it in politics, you get it

609
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 4: in academias, like these individuals who present themselves as very

610
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 4: rational centrists, and then you actually look really closely at

611
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 4: what they're saying and it's really out there.

612
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's pretty white supremacist. Like he just

613
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: keeps talking about the like how we were saved by

614
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: these enlightenment European thinkers and then like writing the you know,

615
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: erasing the Native American influence from everything, and it's just

616
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: the story of how we like trained ourselves to have

617
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 1: better and better manners and that led to lower murder

618
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: rates if you're not counting World War Two. But yeah,

619
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too bogged down by Pinker,

620
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: but it just I think there's there's just so many

621
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: examples in the book of these stories that upend this

622
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: idea that these civilizations were not complex, that they weren't

623
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: trying different things out, that they weren't like there's a

624
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: I think it's a Huron system of beliefs around dreams

625
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: that you cover in the book. It was like really

626
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: similar to Freud's theory, but almost more interesting because it

627
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: like doesn't go in all the weird.

628
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, I mean directions we have of this. It's

629
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 4: called unin Dunk and it goes by way I mean

630
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 4: centuries before Freud. Yeah, where actually dreams are one of

631
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 4: the only contexts in which it does seem like you

632
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 4: could have almost the kind of power of command if

633
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 4: you dreamed something. It could be a particuli object or

634
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 4: a relationship you wish to have. If it came to

635
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 4: you in a dream, people almost had to try and

636
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 4: make it come true. So we have these descriptions of

637
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 4: the I think it's the winter seasons from the late

638
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 4: seventeenth early eighteenth century of Huron societies, where people would

639
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 4: gather around and try and make somebody's dream come true.

640
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 4: There was a compulsion to do this, and they would

641
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 4: do this by interpreting the symbolism of the dream in

642
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 4: much the way that Freud was credited with an enormous breakthrough,

643
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 4: one of the great intellectual breakthroughs of the twentieth century,

644
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 4: Freudian psychoanalysis. They have it in their own form. The

645
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 4: major difference is that they do it communally. You don't

646
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 4: have this notion of the individual therapist and the patient.

647
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 4: Society gathers around the individual and supports them in much

648
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 4: the same way that you know, some of the same

649
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 4: kinds of hallucinogenics or psychoactive substances that we tend to

650
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 4: we if we ingest them. You know, people do it

651
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 4: as largely as individuals would actually have been done in

652
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 4: a very communal context, with people caressing you, supporting you,

653
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 4: holding your hand, kind of taking you through it as

654
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 4: a group. But I mean, I guess that the example

655
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 4: of these dreams and dreamings, you know, teaching teaches us

656
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 4: is that would be very foolish to dismiss those forms

657
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 4: of knowledge as somehow alien or exotic, because actually, you know,

658
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 4: we find them within our own culture.

659
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 3: I feel like that's sort of one of the things

660
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 3: that we're so limited because we've dismissed so much of

661
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: this wisdom or papered it over with sort of like

662
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 3: revisionist versions of what had occurred or what things were

663
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 3: said and what those ideas were. And I think that's

664
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: why it's really important too, because as we as people

665
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 3: tend to look at our own systems of oppression as

666
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 3: being fixed and it's like, well, I don't know what

667
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: you can do. It's just it's just all it was

668
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 3: always kind of trending this way. I think there's these

669
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 3: examples in your book that just show a if we

670
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 3: can overcome our sort of perspective of like, well, these

671
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 3: people think this is like old ways man, and like

672
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 3: they didn't know what they were doing. But there are

673
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: examples I think of, you know, Teoti Hua Khan where

674
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: you talk about how that is a shift where people

675
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 3: saw what was going on with their civilization and actually

676
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 3: decided to change it to a completely different system. Can

677
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 3: you can you just sort of kind of talk us

678
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 3: through that process, because I think it's very interesting for

679
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: especially for us who look at what we're like sort

680
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 3: of these structures we live under now and think, well,

681
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 3: I don't know what to do.

682
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: It is what it is.

683
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there seems to be a whole strand

684
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 4: of I guess what we would call a republican tradition

685
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 4: or sort of anti monarchy tradition in the deep history

686
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 4: of Mexican societies and especially urban societies ancient cities. Tetti

687
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 4: Wakhan is one of the and most spectacular manifestations of this.

688
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 4: So we're in the Valley of Mexico now around the

689
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 4: time of Christ, so the years sort of the year

690
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 4: zero one, whatever, in the first few centuries of the

691
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 4: common era. You get this extraordinary city forming in the

692
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 4: Valley of Mexico with a lot of refugees, it seems

693
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 4: from surrounding areas there was a lot of volcanic activity

694
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 4: at the time. There's a lot of destruction going on.

695
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 4: People flood into this site and they form a city

696
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 4: with hundreds of thousands of residents, and they start doing

697
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 4: all the things that netflix would probably lead you to

698
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 4: expect of an ancient city. They build great pyramids, that's

699
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 4: the Pyramid of the Sun, Pyramid of the Moon, the

700
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,479
Speaker 4: Temple of the Feathered Serpent. But then, rather fascinatingly, after

701
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 4: a couple of centuries of doing this, they change course

702
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 4: in the most dramatic way. They stop building these great monuments,

703
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 4: and all of that labor and collective investment that went

704
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 4: in to creating them, goes into something else, and we

705
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 4: know what that something else was because archaeologists mapped it.

706
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: In one of.

707
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 4: The first really great urban surveys done by archaeologists, they

708
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 4: found this incredible system of public housing and it goes

709
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 4: in a grid. It's incredibly carefully planned, and it goes

710
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 4: in an orthogonal grid from one end of the city

711
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 4: to the other, and it houses, as far as we

712
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 4: can tell, most of the city's vast multi ethnic population,

713
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 4: multi ethnic, multilingual, in very comfortable circumstances. When archaeologists first

714
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 4: discovered these kind of communal villas, they actually thought they

715
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 4: were palaces, and then they realized that basically everybody is

716
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 4: living in a palace, and talking about really beautiful plastered

717
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 4: walls with mural subfloor drainage systems, maybe four or five

718
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 4: nuclear families living in one of these compounds or apartment houses,

719
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 4: and we can reconstruct a diet using the kind of

720
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 4: techniques that archaeologists use these days, and show that this

721
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 4: was an incredibly prosperous site that actually knocked in equality

722
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 4: on the head for hundreds of years on an urban scale,

723
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 4: which is pretty mind blowing.

724
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, these are the civilizations that that we were

725
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: viewing as primitive, and they've already gone through the process

726
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: of having this authoritarian set up and then like overthrowing

727
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 2: it and building a civilization that up and running a

728
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 2: large city that's bottom up, that's right.

729
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 4: I mean, they did actually have some kind of writing system,

730
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 4: it seems that to wak on, but nobody has really

731
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 4: been able to decipher it, and even if we could,

732
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 4: it may not give us the kind of information we

733
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 4: would really love because just imagine the kind of discussions

734
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 4: that are going Imagine the kind of philosophical discoveries and

735
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 4: movements that would have accompanied transition like this, which we

736
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 4: can only reconstruction the material relates. Yeah, imagine all the

737
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,240
Speaker 4: intellectual stuff. And actually we do get some insight into

738
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 4: this from a later period when the Conquistados arrive. They

739
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 4: actually stumble upon cities that are organized in pretty egalitarian ways,

740
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,479
Speaker 4: and they describe some of them, including ones with full

741
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 4: blown of parliaments, at a time when you don't really

742
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 4: have very much of that going on in Europe.

743
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Actually, let's take one more quick break, will be right.

744
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 11: Back, and we're back and sing it out.

745
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: The Titanic's been in the news for years now.

746
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: Since who knows when, probably like right after they were like,

747
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: we're sending an unsinkable ship across the Atlantic.

748
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: I feel like there's already big news when they said that,

749
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: but boy, when it actually sunk the first time, that

750
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: must have been Wow. Man, hundred and twelve year.

751
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 3: News streak, this things on. Yeah, I can't believe it. Yeah, unbelievable.

752
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 1: So it's been in the news recently because, first of all,

753
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 1: there's a guy in Florida who has a room full

754
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: of nearly three thousand Titanic VHS tapes and multiple homemade

755
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 1: Jack Dawson fuck mannequins.

756
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, are manniquins?

757
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah they are. They are anatomically incorrect. Just the neck, Yeah,

758
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: this one looks like Grady dick On, like fucking Draft

759
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: Night with the long neck.

760
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 9: Well you could. Yeah, who's gonna tell him that? You know,

761
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 9: he's been working on this. This is one thing he's doing.

762
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 3: Ye.

763
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this guy who said it.

764
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 3: He said Titanic has always been my favorite film, and

765
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 3: I've converted my home office in Florida into my personal

766
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 3: Titanic museum. The two thousand, six hundred and eighty two

767
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 3: tapes cover my walls like wallpaper. I have my own

768
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: Jack Dawson mannequin too. What are the other two things?

769
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: Then? If he only has one mannequin, I think.

770
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 9: That it was based on a true story. This guy

771
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 9: doesn't even he's not even a fan of the boat.

772
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 9: He just likes the movie.

773
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: He's a fan of only the VHS's yea, yeah, never

774
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: seen it.

775
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: I just like these little tapes they come in the

776
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: double tape box. I think it's kind of neat.

777
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: That was a fun thing at one point on the Internet,

778
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 1: having like seeing people on social media, like young people

779
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 1: find out that Titanic was based on a true story,

780
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: like wait.

781
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 12: What are you fucking will there like yeah, way no,

782
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 12: they like one about the James Cameron one with the

783
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 12: with the boat thinking that, yeah, no, tell.

784
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 2: Me Avatar wasn't based on a real story. Okay, sure, right.

785
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 9: So this guy Clive Palma, yeah, he's also a Titanic

786
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 9: fan if it didn't.

787
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: Huge Titanic fan, and he is relaunching, so he's a

788
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: fan of the boat itself, just the Yeah, he is

789
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: relaunching his Titanic two. The two is typically using Roman

790
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: numerals project despite the fact that his plans to pinstangely

791
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: recreate the doomed cruise ship have failed twice before, Not

792
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: to mention, people might be a tad warry of any

793
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: Titanic based tourism promoted by reckless billionaires. Yea, these days,

794
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 1: I feel like, wasn't that that was the last one

795
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: was really bad?

796
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 2: Good?

797
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 8: Isn't it like a bunch of people whole life?

798
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 2: Yep?

799
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 9: Yep, exactly. We don't have enough life rafts. There are

800
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 9: engineering problems.

801
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 2: Everything that will be exactly the same. And then we'll

802
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: just see if.

803
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 9: Annoyed he's gonna be when he's gonna try and sell

804
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 9: this thing into an iceberg that has melted, it's like, yeah.

805
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: Like the fuck just right for a slushy yeah, or

806
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 3: they're pretty soon next you're like, oh man, they're bringing

807
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 3: back United Flight ninety three. If you guys want to

808
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 3: hop on that, it could be really fucking cool. Mark

809
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 3: Wahlberg's on there though, He's like, yeah, don't worry, folks.

810
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 9: This hits a lot of intriguing chick points, you know, Like,

811
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 9: I think anyone who's watched the movie and being stoned

812
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 9: enough is on board with what's happening here.

813
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: I'm in on this one. Yeah, I watched the movie

814
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: not Stoned, and I'm kind of like, I would all

815
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: things being equal, if I like had just ridiculous wealth,

816
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: I would probably go on this for.

817
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 3: Some critism, But then would you stay in steerage because

818
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 3: I like that he's also like trying to make just

819
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 3: even every class sort of like be you know, historically accurate.

820
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 3: So third class that serves stew and mash and I'm like, yeah,

821
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 3: that sounds all right, Yeah, man, this stews sounds good. Unfortunately,

822
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 3: I've always identified in that movie most with Billy Zayn's character,

823
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 3: so that's probably what I'd be doing, just Billy Zay

824
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 3: in it up fully, Hell yeah, yelling at the people

825
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 3: in Steerage and this is I mean, this is so

826
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 3: it's so raise him and like idiotic.

827
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 9: It's it's kind of a nice you know, it's a

828
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 9: nice it's a nice use of a billionaires time and resource.

829
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 9: It's a waste of energy, and of course it could

830
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 9: go to something a lot more constructive, but you just

831
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 9: got to know that that's off the table from the outset.

832
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 9: So it's like, instead of trying to get himself back

833
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 9: into Australian Parliament or publing a bunch of money, which

834
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 9: I'm sure he's doing in the background anyway. And to

835
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 9: you know, the Conservative Party is it's like, if you're

836
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 9: going to just stand up here and be like, I

837
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 9: got this insane vanity project.

838
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 8: I want to rebuild a boat, the most famous.

839
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 9: Boat that's saying yeah, good on you, bro, Yeah, go

840
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 9: for it.

841
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: It's really Yeah, Like I think I don't like, I

842
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: don't know enough about this. I'm just kind of finding

843
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: out about Clive Palmer. I do think this is a

844
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: level of imagination and fun that is beyond Donald Trump.

845
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 1: Like Donald Trump would never he would never be like, yeah,

846
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: we're going to do everything the same. He'd be like

847
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: everything's going to be gold. Yeah, yeah, gold Titanic, and

848
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: it will only serve it will only serve Trump steaks,

849
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: you know, like last so quickly. Whereas like just the

850
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: idea of sticking to all the details of this is

851
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: actually kind of fun.

852
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

853
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 3: I also just like to like his explanation, like you've

854
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 3: been kind of doing this project off and on, Like

855
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 3: what's the difference. He said, the plan is more real

856
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 3: than ever because quote, I've got more money.

857
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: Now.

858
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: Let's just say the pandemic was very, very good to

859
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: meet on.

860
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, he made I think he was a real

861
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 9: estate agent and then he retired at twenty nine. Was

862
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 9: his in you know, so he got he got rich

863
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 9: at the right time in the right place. I think

864
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 9: he's you know, flipping houses in the eighties or something. Yeah,

865
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 9: I just think it's a it's a fun, cartoonish old

866
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 9: style of being a billionaire or a billionaire. You know,

867
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 9: it's the more timely association with the money. Like if

868
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 9: that's all he's wanted to do this whole time, power

869
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 9: to him. It's not he's a bad guy, but he's

870
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 9: doing something cool.

871
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's probably a massive piece of shit and.

872
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 9: He is undoubtedly this guy is was he like doing

873
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 9: coal mining or something and he's like involved in mining too.

874
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 9: He will have got into mining. He real you know,

875
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 9: like it's it's ridiculous. He's a real estate agent. He's

876
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 9: a real estate agent at the right time. He got

877
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 9: rich by circumstance. And then that abused people with the

878
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 9: self belief that they are intelligent operators. And yeah, I

879
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 9: know how the world works because they were just in

880
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 9: a specific moment in time and they got one thing right,

881
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 9: and the flowing effect was that they are suddenly ultra wealthy,

882
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 9: and they're like, you know, money does not correlate to

883
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 9: intelligence at all, But tried telling that to a billionaire.

884
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 2: We'll see if he has if he goes through with

885
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: his other plan of doing the Challenger too with he

886
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,959
Speaker 2: so his other idea that he's had in the past, well,

887
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, he bought a prestigious off resort which

888
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: was home to the Australian PGA, and filled it with

889
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 2: animatronic dinosaurs, including a life sized t Rex between the

890
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 2: ninth Green and the tenth Green. That's right again, like

891
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 2: this is fucking awesome. I love that.

892
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 9: The movies he's going for the ones Titanic and it

893
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 9: goes so yeah, yeah, or even Jurassic Park was like

894
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 9: that's a good idea, you know, the midster Jurassic Park

895
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 9: is not. We should have dinosaur parks. Yeah, because like

896
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 9: this boat was awesome.

897
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 1: You just saw the first the first half of like

898
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: every movie and oh yeah, he goes, yeah, right, they

899
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: get to Jurassic Park.

900
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: He's like, I've seen enough enough.

901
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 8: Maybe you know they get on the boat. He's like yeah, boats, boats, boats.

902
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:51,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

903
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 3: He's like, no, I have an idea we need fucking

904
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,439
Speaker 3: dinosaurs on the golf courses. That's where Hammond went wrong.

905
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 9: Who knows more about golf course and donosos some with

906
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 9: ten billion dollars or someone who's watching the whole.

907
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 3: Movie like that, he was called palmer Saurus. It's like

908
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 3: not even like the name of a park. He just

909
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 3: called it palmer.

910
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: That's good.

911
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 9: See because again Trump would be Trump dinosaur or you

912
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 9: know right, he's trying something right.

913
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: He also the dinosaur, the life sized t rex he

914
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 1: named Jeff and then yeah, Jeff, he said, claimed Jeff

915
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: is just the first taste of Palmersaurus. An outdoor exhibit

916
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: of one hundred and sixty two scale robotic dinosaurs that roar, slink, sluggishly,

917
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: moved their limbs and slowly gnashed their teeth.

918
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 3: Can't be too much of a distraction on the golf course,

919
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? That's what he's still still

920
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 3: there's still a sense of decorum out there when someone's

921
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 3: trying to put ooh it's staring at the t rigs.

922
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: But the reason he's referred to as Australia is Trump

923
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 1: beyond being a you know, quote unquote billionaire who's lost

924
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: his grasp of reality. He's also gotten into politics and

925
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: he's a former NP. Yeah, launched a campaign with the

926
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: slogan make Australia great it was never great before, so

927
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: that they ca.

928
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's an honesty there. Yeah. But I just

929
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 2: also like that he's he's so like hair brained that

930
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: he fully went in on the fucking hydroxy chlorical Yes,

931
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 2: and by ten imported tens of millions of doses of

932
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 2: H hydroxychlorical when to donate to the Australian government quote

933
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: as enthusiasm for the drug. Waned, Wait what happened? But

934
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: what's going on with this market? I thought I understood markets.

935
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: I'm allionaire.

936
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 3: Oh the enthusiasm's waning or it was horseshit to begin with,

937
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 3: I'm rather horse paced to begin with, sorry, thank you? Yeah,

938
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 3: I said five million doses had to be destroyed because

939
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 3: no one wanted to and clean them at the airport.

940
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: So I just love that. It's also like really fucking

941
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 2: terrible swings and missus too. It's not like this sort

942
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 2: of like Koch Brothers tape shit.

943
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 3: It's like no palm resaurus, that's Jeff hydroxychlorin millions of doses.

944
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 2: Oh, No, one wants them.

945
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,720
Speaker 9: Whatever he's he has, like, while all this is happening,

946
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 9: he has taken time out of his busy schedule being

947
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 9: a fun sort of style hare brain billionaire to disrupt

948
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 9: progress in Australia in a variety of where I think

949
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 9: he pubbed a lot of money. They to referend him

950
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,720
Speaker 9: on whether or not they should have an Indigenous voice

951
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 9: in Parliament, the vote yes referendum or vote no, you know,

952
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 9: to the whole country. It was it's a flaid process.

953
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 9: He sunk a bunch of his money into the no

954
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 9: campaign to say Indigenous, Indigenous popular shouldn't have representation.

955
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, so he's he's not you know, it's not all that.

956
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,879
Speaker 9: When yeah, the country voted no, it was a very

957
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 9: devastating moment for Australia. And so, you know, when he's

958
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 9: it's important that his brain remains flooded with these sort

959
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 9: of fun distracts because when he's not working on his

960
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 9: vanity projects, he's full xenophobia.

961
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 8: Yeah he's not even xenophobia.

962
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, you're you're the colonist and.

963
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 9: His core he's a bad guy, but on the surface,

964
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 9: on the right day, he's probably quite a good chat.

965
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 3: That's then I think that's sort of like the thing

966
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 3: that makes these kinds of characters like effective. It's like

967
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 3: they're like, no, they're actually advocating for some evil shit.

968
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 3: They're like, no, man, dude, he wants to build fucking

969
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 3: he likes t rexes and shit.

970
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 2: It's called Jeff Yeah like that.

971
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,439
Speaker 3: It's like the like George Bush, Like you know, Bush

972
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 3: two really gave us that taste of that where they're like,

973
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 3: this guy's a fucking danger and everything. It's like, dude,

974
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 3: he's just a goof man, don't worry. Yeah, it's like

975
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 3: he's destroying the Okay.

976
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a bit of a laugh though.

977
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: Keeps pitching me on a public transport overhaul where all

978
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: the buses blow up on if they go under fifty five.

979
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 2: Miles per hour.

980
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 9: He's trying to get a blimp to fly between Australia

981
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 9: and New Zealand. It's called that the Pamaburg Tube.

982
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: He's also so the thing that happens with billionaires is

983
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: they get rich, become convinced that they're right about everything,

984
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: and they're like they deserve to be rich because they're

985
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: the smartest person who's ever lived. And then they're so

986
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: rich at that point that nobody can tell them otherwise. Yeah,

987
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: And so for instance, he did the hydroxychloroquin thing during

988
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:36,240
Speaker 1: the pandemic. Also tried to sue the government over COVID

989
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: related travel restrictions. Has bankrolled multiple lawsuits contesting COVID vaccine requirements. Incidentally,

990
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: when he did catch COVID, he got double pneumonia as

991
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: a result and had to go to the hospital.

992
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 2: And nearly died.

993
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: And they were like, so, do you have any regret

994
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,720
Speaker 1: about not having the vaccine? He's like, no, of course,

995
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,479
Speaker 1: of course I don't. Restrictions on unvaccinated no longer apply

996
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: to me. Also, so I'm winning this one because I

997
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 1: got it. So I no longer I'm.

998
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 9: Immunized with a lot more, with a lot more coffin

999
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 9: and splashing. Right, what's double pneumonia?

1000
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 2: Oh? Man?

1001
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 8: Twice intense?

1002
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine.

1003
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 3: I just I just like when like there's a medical condition,

1004
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,240
Speaker 3: but it's the altar, like the the modifiers just double.

1005
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 3: Then your five year old name the disease. Oh, it's

1006
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 3: because both of your lungs are infected. Okay, got it,

1007
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 3: got it, got it makes sense? Yeah, but double compound

1008
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 3: compound pneumonia. It's like, yeah, I got yeah, I got

1009
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 3: double your infection. That that actually makes sense if you

1010
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 3: said double ammonia nut kickbacks.

1011
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah.

1012
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 1: All right, that's gonna do it for this week's weekly Zeitgeist.

1013
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: Please like and review the show if you like, The

1014
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: show means the world to Miles. He he needs your validation.

1015
00:56:58,360 --> 00:56:58,720
Speaker 2: Folks.

1016
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 1: I hope you're having a great weekend and I will

1017
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: talk to you Monday. Bye.