1
00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104
Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go

2
00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823
Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on

3
00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:20,864
Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm

4
00:00:20,904 --> 00:00:22,784
Speaker 1: John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea.

5
00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,544
Speaker 2: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers

6
00:00:26,664 --> 00:00:29,864
Speaker 2: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around.

7
00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:32,984
Speaker 3: The world, and part of our job was creating conspiracies

8
00:00:33,024 --> 00:00:34,504
Speaker 3: to deceive our adversaries.

9
00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504
Speaker 2: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the

10
00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,424
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some of

11
00:00:40,464 --> 00:00:41,224
Speaker 2: you may not have heard.

12
00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,583
Speaker 4: Could they be true or are we being manipulated?

13
00:00:43,703 --> 00:00:50,984
Speaker 2: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. So today's guest

14
00:00:51,064 --> 00:00:53,543
Speaker 2: is Stephen Kinzer. Stephen as a former New York Times

15
00:00:53,623 --> 00:00:57,103
Speaker 2: foreign correspondent and a prolific author. We overlapped with him

16
00:00:57,104 --> 00:00:59,304
Speaker 2: in the early nineties in Berlin and covering the fall

17
00:00:59,344 --> 00:01:02,984
Speaker 2: of Communism. He's written a number of excellent books. All

18
00:01:03,024 --> 00:01:05,624
Speaker 2: the Shaw's Men is one of my personal favorites, and

19
00:01:05,664 --> 00:01:08,184
Speaker 2: today we want to talk about his book on CIA's

20
00:01:08,224 --> 00:01:11,784
Speaker 2: mind control program in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties,

21
00:01:12,024 --> 00:01:14,904
Speaker 2: known to many as MK Ultra. The book is the

22
00:01:14,944 --> 00:01:18,304
Speaker 2: Poisoner in Chief, Sidney Gottlieb, and the CIA search for

23
00:01:18,423 --> 00:01:20,264
Speaker 2: mind control. So welcome Stephen.

24
00:01:20,344 --> 00:01:22,303
Speaker 4: Thanks, good to be with you. A great topic.

25
00:01:22,584 --> 00:01:24,984
Speaker 2: It's like the perfect conspiracy story because it is a

26
00:01:24,984 --> 00:01:26,544
Speaker 2: conspiracy and it is about CIA.

27
00:01:26,703 --> 00:01:30,063
Speaker 4: So well. I sometimes tell my students there's a danger

28
00:01:30,104 --> 00:01:32,904
Speaker 4: in being a conspiracy theorist and thinking that nothing is

29
00:01:32,904 --> 00:01:35,423
Speaker 4: the way it seems. But there's also the other danger.

30
00:01:35,863 --> 00:01:38,824
Speaker 4: That's the danger of being a non conspiracy theory and

31
00:01:38,904 --> 00:01:41,184
Speaker 4: believing that everything is the way it seems and there's

32
00:01:41,224 --> 00:01:43,303
Speaker 4: nothing hit. It's like you happen to try to find

33
00:01:43,503 --> 00:01:44,464
Speaker 4: some kind of a balance.

34
00:01:44,783 --> 00:01:46,943
Speaker 2: There you go. So this book is a perfect one

35
00:01:46,984 --> 00:01:49,784
Speaker 2: for that. So I think most people know something about

36
00:01:49,944 --> 00:01:53,184
Speaker 2: MK Ultra. It's the basis of movies and shows and

37
00:01:53,304 --> 00:01:56,504
Speaker 2: multiple conspiracy theories. But just to get us started, can

38
00:01:56,544 --> 00:01:58,944
Speaker 2: you give us a bit of background on the program

39
00:01:59,064 --> 00:02:02,784
Speaker 2: and on your subject, Sidney Gottlieb. Was he a mad scientist?

40
00:02:03,064 --> 00:02:06,144
Speaker 4: I've certainly one of the one of the monikers that

41
00:02:06,264 --> 00:02:08,944
Speaker 4: was attached to him, and I think probably richly deserved.

42
00:02:09,144 --> 00:02:12,664
Speaker 4: So MK Ultra what a bizarre project. And I've got

43
00:02:12,704 --> 00:02:15,144
Speaker 4: to point out that this was highly secret. It was

44
00:02:15,504 --> 00:02:19,304
Speaker 4: maybe the greatest secret of the CIA in the FIFTIESA

45
00:02:19,464 --> 00:02:22,904
Speaker 4: senior officers were well aware that if any of this

46
00:02:23,104 --> 00:02:25,864
Speaker 4: ever leaked out into the public, there would be an explosion.

47
00:02:25,904 --> 00:02:30,104
Speaker 4: It could destroy the CIA or even destroy America's position

48
00:02:30,184 --> 00:02:34,224
Speaker 4: in the world. So Sidney Gottlieb was a chemist who

49
00:02:34,384 --> 00:02:37,264
Speaker 4: was brought in to be head of the chemical branch

50
00:02:37,344 --> 00:02:40,344
Speaker 4: of the CIA when the CIA was just beginning in

51
00:02:40,384 --> 00:02:45,264
Speaker 4: the early nineteen fifties, But that title didn't really explain

52
00:02:45,384 --> 00:02:49,424
Speaker 4: his true job, or certainly didn't cover all of what

53
00:02:49,504 --> 00:02:53,024
Speaker 4: he had to do. The CIA had become convinced, by

54
00:02:53,064 --> 00:02:56,424
Speaker 4: misinterpreting some things that had happened in the rest of

55
00:02:56,464 --> 00:03:00,864
Speaker 4: the world, that the Soviets or the Chinese or international

56
00:03:00,904 --> 00:03:05,064
Speaker 4: Communism was closing in on the secret of mind control.

57
00:03:05,464 --> 00:03:10,424
Speaker 4: It meant that somehow you'd find a way to make

58
00:03:10,544 --> 00:03:12,904
Speaker 4: people do what you wanted them to do, and of

59
00:03:12,944 --> 00:03:16,824
Speaker 4: course this terrified and electrified the CIA, because if you

60
00:03:16,824 --> 00:03:20,224
Speaker 4: could actually accomplish this, then the prize would be nothing

61
00:03:20,344 --> 00:03:24,264
Speaker 4: less than global mastery. So the idea that the Soviets

62
00:03:24,304 --> 00:03:27,944
Speaker 4: were on the trail set off panic at the CIA,

63
00:03:28,104 --> 00:03:29,904
Speaker 4: and you have to put yourself back in that era.

64
00:03:30,144 --> 00:03:32,944
Speaker 4: They didn't need anything else to set them off into panic.

65
00:03:33,224 --> 00:03:35,304
Speaker 4: The CIA was in a panic mode, and so was

66
00:03:35,344 --> 00:03:38,104
Speaker 4: the whole US government, the State Department, the White House,

67
00:03:38,144 --> 00:03:42,104
Speaker 4: the Defense Department. You have to realize that Americans were

68
00:03:42,144 --> 00:03:45,784
Speaker 4: taught to believe and did believe, that the Soviet Union

69
00:03:46,344 --> 00:03:50,024
Speaker 4: was likely to launch an attack on the United States

70
00:03:50,024 --> 00:03:53,744
Speaker 4: with nuclear weapons at any moment, with no warning. We

71
00:03:53,744 --> 00:03:56,744
Speaker 4: were told that there were only two possible outcomes to

72
00:03:56,824 --> 00:03:59,504
Speaker 4: the Cold War. One was that the United States would

73
00:03:59,704 --> 00:04:02,584
Speaker 4: triumph over and destroy the Soviet Union, or the Soviet

74
00:04:02,704 --> 00:04:05,384
Speaker 4: Union would triumph over and destroy the United States. If

75
00:04:05,424 --> 00:04:09,624
Speaker 4: that ladder happened, it wouldn't only mean that the the

76
00:04:09,704 --> 00:04:12,984
Speaker 4: US would be taken over and Soviets would win. It

77
00:04:12,984 --> 00:04:17,224
Speaker 4: would mean the end of all possibility for meaningful human

78
00:04:17,303 --> 00:04:20,824
Speaker 4: life on Earth. Everybody would be transformed into a kind

79
00:04:20,824 --> 00:04:25,943
Speaker 4: of a robot or automaton controlled by Soviet commissars. So,

80
00:04:26,024 --> 00:04:28,943
Speaker 4: with the stakes that high, the loss of a few

81
00:04:28,984 --> 00:04:31,544
Speaker 4: lives or even a few hundred lives would seem to

82
00:04:31,584 --> 00:04:34,863
Speaker 4: be quite a small price to pay. So, electrified and

83
00:04:34,984 --> 00:04:39,184
Speaker 4: terrified by this fear that the other side was doing this,

84
00:04:39,584 --> 00:04:42,463
Speaker 4: the CIA decided to launch a mind control project and

85
00:04:42,503 --> 00:04:45,944
Speaker 4: they hired this chemist, Sidney Guttlieb. I think the people

86
00:04:46,024 --> 00:04:49,184
Speaker 4: who hired him, that is, the senior officials at the CIA,

87
00:04:49,224 --> 00:04:52,583
Speaker 4: particularly Alan Dllis who was the director, and Frank Wisner,

88
00:04:52,623 --> 00:04:56,744
Speaker 4: the head of COVID operations, probably would have thought to themselves,

89
00:04:56,984 --> 00:05:00,104
Speaker 4: this is going to be what we call a wet project.

90
00:05:00,303 --> 00:05:03,144
Speaker 4: People are gonna suffer and people are gonna die, and

91
00:05:03,584 --> 00:05:06,224
Speaker 4: we don't want this ever to come out, but if

92
00:05:06,264 --> 00:05:09,063
Speaker 4: it does, we're going to try to blame it on

93
00:05:09,104 --> 00:05:11,703
Speaker 4: the guy was the head of the program and say

94
00:05:11,823 --> 00:05:15,303
Speaker 4: that he was operating without supervision, and in fact they

95
00:05:15,344 --> 00:05:19,863
Speaker 4: did let him operate without supervision. Later on, when William

96
00:05:19,904 --> 00:05:24,224
Speaker 4: Colby received the family of one of the MK Ultra victims,

97
00:05:24,464 --> 00:05:27,183
Speaker 4: he did say some of our people were out of

98
00:05:27,264 --> 00:05:30,264
Speaker 4: control in those days. There was a lack of supervision.

99
00:05:30,424 --> 00:05:33,704
Speaker 4: This was true, but it was planned that way, and

100
00:05:33,743 --> 00:05:37,544
Speaker 4: I think they chose Gottlieb particularly with this in mind.

101
00:05:37,863 --> 00:05:40,863
Speaker 4: He was a trained scientist. He was certainly qualified as

102
00:05:40,863 --> 00:05:44,384
Speaker 4: a chemist, but he had other qualifications. At that time,

103
00:05:44,943 --> 00:05:49,743
Speaker 4: all the senior CIA officers had a very similar background.

104
00:05:49,943 --> 00:05:53,703
Speaker 4: They were all silver spoon products of the American elite.

105
00:05:53,743 --> 00:05:56,743
Speaker 4: They'd gone to Gratton or one of those other schools

106
00:05:57,144 --> 00:05:59,544
Speaker 4: up in New England. They went to the same Ivy

107
00:05:59,623 --> 00:06:02,544
Speaker 4: League schools, They dated the same girls, they were members

108
00:06:02,544 --> 00:06:05,503
Speaker 4: of the same country clubs and the same yacht clubs,

109
00:06:05,544 --> 00:06:07,824
Speaker 4: and they worked at the same Wall Street law firms

110
00:06:07,863 --> 00:06:11,024
Speaker 4: and banks. So it was a very red group. Now

111
00:06:11,303 --> 00:06:13,464
Speaker 4: you're trying to hire somebody who's going to do something

112
00:06:13,704 --> 00:06:17,183
Speaker 4: pretty awful. So they decided they wanted to hire somebody

113
00:06:17,303 --> 00:06:21,424
Speaker 4: who wasn't from their social group because they thought, I

114
00:06:21,503 --> 00:06:23,863
Speaker 4: think we might have to throw this guy under the

115
00:06:23,863 --> 00:06:26,344
Speaker 4: bus sometimes say it was all his fault. So we

116
00:06:26,383 --> 00:06:28,344
Speaker 4: don't want that to be one of the people in

117
00:06:28,383 --> 00:06:31,224
Speaker 4: the Georgetown set that we hang around with every weekend.

118
00:06:31,464 --> 00:06:35,224
Speaker 4: So Sidney Gottlieb was so different from all the other

119
00:06:35,784 --> 00:06:39,144
Speaker 4: early CI officers. First of all, he was Jewish. He

120
00:06:39,183 --> 00:06:42,063
Speaker 4: was son of immigrants. His parents were Orthodox Jewish immigrants

121
00:06:42,104 --> 00:06:45,063
Speaker 4: from Central Europe. He grew up in the Bronx. He

122
00:06:45,183 --> 00:06:48,344
Speaker 4: went to City College. He had a limp, which had

123
00:06:48,424 --> 00:06:50,984
Speaker 4: kept him out of the army in World War Two

124
00:06:51,063 --> 00:06:53,263
Speaker 4: and actually made him all the more eager to try

125
00:06:53,264 --> 00:06:55,784
Speaker 4: to do something to make up for it. He had

126
00:06:55,784 --> 00:06:58,424
Speaker 4: a stutter. It was so different from all the rest

127
00:06:58,424 --> 00:07:00,863
Speaker 4: of them, And I think maybe part of the reason

128
00:07:01,144 --> 00:07:04,143
Speaker 4: was again that they thought we might have to blame

129
00:07:04,183 --> 00:07:07,024
Speaker 4: it all on him. So what did he do? First

130
00:07:07,024 --> 00:07:10,264
Speaker 4: of all, there had been a variety of smaller projects

131
00:07:10,264 --> 00:07:13,064
Speaker 4: in this area, in the CIA and also even in

132
00:07:13,104 --> 00:07:16,583
Speaker 4: the military, So he pulled those all together into one

133
00:07:16,624 --> 00:07:20,584
Speaker 4: project called mk Ultra, and he launched it as a

134
00:07:20,664 --> 00:07:23,904
Speaker 4: scientist would. The first question that he asked, like a

135
00:07:23,904 --> 00:07:29,624
Speaker 4: good scientist, was how do you implant a new mind

136
00:07:29,744 --> 00:07:32,903
Speaker 4: into someone's brain? And he concluded that the way to

137
00:07:32,984 --> 00:07:35,384
Speaker 4: do that, or before you could do it, you had

138
00:07:35,384 --> 00:07:38,583
Speaker 4: to find a way to destroy the mind that was

139
00:07:38,704 --> 00:07:41,664
Speaker 4: in there. So when you hear about all the excesses

140
00:07:41,744 --> 00:07:44,104
Speaker 4: of mk Ultra and all the blood and all the depths,

141
00:07:44,304 --> 00:07:46,104
Speaker 4: that was the purpose of it. They were trying to

142
00:07:46,104 --> 00:07:49,344
Speaker 4: see what were the ways you could seize control of

143
00:07:49,344 --> 00:07:52,223
Speaker 4: a human mind and a human spirit and a human body.

144
00:07:52,504 --> 00:07:55,064
Speaker 4: So that was the first thing that Gottlieb decided, You've

145
00:07:55,104 --> 00:07:58,384
Speaker 4: got to find a way to destroy the existing money.

146
00:07:58,624 --> 00:08:01,104
Speaker 4: And then the second thing he asked himself was what

147
00:08:01,224 --> 00:08:04,944
Speaker 4: creative research already exists out there? Any scientists would ask this,

148
00:08:05,024 --> 00:08:08,424
Speaker 4: we want to build on existing knowledge. Now, how much

149
00:08:09,064 --> 00:08:12,224
Speaker 4: Sarah Gas. Does it take to kill an infant compared

150
00:08:12,224 --> 00:08:14,583
Speaker 4: to how much it takes to kill an adult? We

151
00:08:14,664 --> 00:08:17,184
Speaker 4: don't know that. In order to know that, you have

152
00:08:17,224 --> 00:08:19,144
Speaker 4: to have conducted some very gruesome.

153
00:08:18,984 --> 00:08:20,384
Speaker 2: That Japanese and Germans did.

154
00:08:20,824 --> 00:08:23,624
Speaker 4: And so yeah, we know who knows all that stuff,

155
00:08:23,944 --> 00:08:26,463
Speaker 4: and that was the German doctors who had worked in

156
00:08:26,464 --> 00:08:31,304
Speaker 4: the Nazi concentration camps carrying out those horistic experiments, and

157
00:08:31,344 --> 00:08:34,544
Speaker 4: their Japanese counterparts. In some cases, we're doing things even

158
00:08:34,584 --> 00:08:37,184
Speaker 4: more horrific than anything that went on in a Nazi

159
00:08:37,184 --> 00:08:42,384
Speaker 4: concentration camp. So mk Ultra hired the former concentration camp

160
00:08:42,544 --> 00:08:46,743
Speaker 4: doctors as advisors. And while I was working on Poisoner

161
00:08:46,784 --> 00:08:49,744
Speaker 4: in Chief, I went to Germany, where Gottlieb did some

162
00:08:49,864 --> 00:08:52,983
Speaker 4: of his gruesome work, and I found where I think

163
00:08:53,583 --> 00:08:57,463
Speaker 4: might be the first CIA black site or the first

164
00:08:57,504 --> 00:09:01,824
Speaker 4: CIA secret prism. It's a lovely chateau outside of Frankfurt.

165
00:09:02,304 --> 00:09:05,223
Speaker 4: It's now owned by young guy entrepreneur who broke it

166
00:09:05,304 --> 00:09:08,703
Speaker 4: up into condominiums. He was very friendly when I went there.

167
00:09:09,144 --> 00:09:12,424
Speaker 4: He was fully aware of what had happened in that house.

168
00:09:12,504 --> 00:09:15,184
Speaker 4: There had actually been an article in the German magazine

169
00:09:15,223 --> 00:09:17,784
Speaker 4: Der Spiegel about it, which had called it the CIA

170
00:09:18,024 --> 00:09:21,224
Speaker 4: torture House, and it said there were deaths, but the

171
00:09:21,343 --> 00:09:24,984
Speaker 4: number is unknown. So this guy took me down into

172
00:09:25,024 --> 00:09:28,464
Speaker 4: the basement to show me his storerooms, and he said

173
00:09:28,703 --> 00:09:34,103
Speaker 4: these were the fells where Gottlieb and his Nazi doctor

174
00:09:34,184 --> 00:09:39,504
Speaker 4: pals carried out those experiments, which were actually just continuations

175
00:09:39,544 --> 00:09:42,784
Speaker 4: of the experiments that those Nazis had been conducting just

176
00:09:42,864 --> 00:09:45,704
Speaker 4: down the road only a few years earlier. And he

177
00:09:45,744 --> 00:09:48,464
Speaker 4: also said to me, people around you, the older people

178
00:09:48,504 --> 00:09:50,424
Speaker 4: that have lived here a long time, they know what

179
00:09:50,504 --> 00:09:52,703
Speaker 4: happened in this house, and they've told me that the

180
00:09:52,744 --> 00:09:55,944
Speaker 4: bodies of the so called expendables, the people who were

181
00:09:55,984 --> 00:09:59,424
Speaker 4: experimented to death, were buried in forest around here, in

182
00:09:59,504 --> 00:10:03,104
Speaker 4: places that are now covered over by apartment blocks and

183
00:10:03,223 --> 00:10:06,824
Speaker 4: shopping malls. So that was my first introduction to realize

184
00:10:07,304 --> 00:10:10,664
Speaker 4: and come face to face with the real Ultra.

185
00:10:11,184 --> 00:10:14,704
Speaker 3: For the audience, maybe we took terms around that MK Ultra.

186
00:10:14,784 --> 00:10:17,104
Speaker 3: I think maybe it's a just a quick aside. In

187
00:10:17,184 --> 00:10:20,384
Speaker 3: the agency, we love digraphs, so we put two letters

188
00:10:20,784 --> 00:10:23,223
Speaker 3: in front of the code word. So MK, John, I'm

189
00:10:23,223 --> 00:10:25,703
Speaker 3: the trick, sure, MK was. I think it was a

190
00:10:25,744 --> 00:10:27,424
Speaker 3: science and technology digraph.

191
00:10:27,504 --> 00:10:30,704
Speaker 4: It also means that it's global, it's not limited to

192
00:10:30,744 --> 00:10:32,424
Speaker 4: a certain continent or country.

193
00:10:32,583 --> 00:10:35,904
Speaker 3: Okay, great, Yeah, whenever we run an operation, there'll be

194
00:10:35,944 --> 00:10:38,304
Speaker 3: a digraph in front of it and then the code word.

195
00:10:38,544 --> 00:10:40,504
Speaker 3: And if you know what the digraph is, if it's

196
00:10:40,703 --> 00:10:42,944
Speaker 3: I just make something up. If it's PL, then you know,

197
00:10:43,024 --> 00:10:47,064
Speaker 3: oh PL, that's Germany or whatever it is. So MK

198
00:10:47,223 --> 00:10:49,983
Speaker 3: ultra is not a word, but it is now. But Steve,

199
00:10:50,064 --> 00:10:51,704
Speaker 3: I wanted to go big. First of all, I wanted

200
00:10:51,703 --> 00:10:54,904
Speaker 3: to say this is all true. Despite this, I'm still

201
00:10:55,024 --> 00:10:57,264
Speaker 3: I spent thirty years in the agency. I was really

202
00:10:57,304 --> 00:10:59,463
Speaker 3: proud of it. This is one of the most shameful

203
00:10:59,504 --> 00:11:03,064
Speaker 3: episodes that happened seventy five years ago. But I do

204
00:11:03,144 --> 00:11:06,103
Speaker 3: want to touch maybe just go a little deeper into

205
00:11:06,784 --> 00:11:10,144
Speaker 3: why it is they thought they had to do this.

206
00:11:10,624 --> 00:11:13,224
Speaker 3: And so when I looked into this, there were things

207
00:11:13,264 --> 00:11:16,383
Speaker 3: like the show trials that Stalin was having, where people

208
00:11:16,424 --> 00:11:20,544
Speaker 3: were confessing to crazy things like Jewish doctors were all

209
00:11:20,824 --> 00:11:24,784
Speaker 3: admitting they were trying to poison Stalin, or Cardinal Manzetti

210
00:11:24,824 --> 00:11:27,384
Speaker 3: in Hungary was admitting that he tried to steal the

211
00:11:27,463 --> 00:11:31,064
Speaker 3: crown of Saint Stephen's things that were ludicrous and obviously wrong.

212
00:11:31,504 --> 00:11:34,824
Speaker 3: And I think CIA and maybe Hollywood and the US

213
00:11:34,904 --> 00:11:39,864
Speaker 3: government was assuming wrongly that the Soviet Union and other

214
00:11:39,904 --> 00:11:43,184
Speaker 3: authoritarian governments the North Koreans that they had figured out

215
00:11:43,264 --> 00:11:47,784
Speaker 3: away or were figuring out a way to control people's minds.

216
00:11:47,784 --> 00:11:50,544
Speaker 3: And of course that later is the movie The Manchurian Candidate.

217
00:11:50,944 --> 00:11:51,944
Speaker 4: So what was there?

218
00:11:52,064 --> 00:11:53,904
Speaker 3: What do you get was their sense that they thought

219
00:11:53,944 --> 00:11:57,384
Speaker 3: that they were a yes, genuinely evil what was going on?

220
00:11:57,703 --> 00:12:00,263
Speaker 3: But also what put yourself into their minds? Did they

221
00:12:00,384 --> 00:12:03,904
Speaker 3: actually think that they were like one step ahead trying

222
00:12:03,944 --> 00:12:07,103
Speaker 3: to save liberty? And one last thing too, is these

223
00:12:07,103 --> 00:12:09,824
Speaker 3: are guys from the OSS, not Sinley Gottlieb, but these

224
00:12:09,824 --> 00:12:12,904
Speaker 3: are guys who were used to killing Germans and blowing

225
00:12:12,944 --> 00:12:16,743
Speaker 3: things up, and COVID action was like people were expendable,

226
00:12:17,184 --> 00:12:18,304
Speaker 3: you know, in World War Two.

227
00:12:18,424 --> 00:12:20,263
Speaker 4: Often So what's your sense.

228
00:12:20,024 --> 00:12:23,424
Speaker 3: Of again, not to excuse it, but to explain, to

229
00:12:23,424 --> 00:12:25,904
Speaker 3: put yourself in the mind of why these people thought

230
00:12:25,944 --> 00:12:27,504
Speaker 3: this was so important to do.

231
00:12:27,784 --> 00:12:30,104
Speaker 4: I would say they didn't feel that they were just

232
00:12:30,184 --> 00:12:32,784
Speaker 4: one step ahead of the other side. They thought they

233
00:12:32,784 --> 00:12:35,824
Speaker 4: were a step behind. That's one of the things that

234
00:12:35,904 --> 00:12:38,664
Speaker 4: electrified them, So you're asking a very important question. So

235
00:12:38,744 --> 00:12:41,264
Speaker 4: why what made them come up with this view that

236
00:12:41,384 --> 00:12:45,263
Speaker 4: we now know was false. I think there are two reasons.

237
00:12:45,583 --> 00:12:47,704
Speaker 4: One is and you actually touched on both of them.

238
00:12:47,904 --> 00:12:51,703
Speaker 4: So one had to do with particular episodes that the

239
00:12:51,744 --> 00:12:54,424
Speaker 4: CIA watched, and I don't think it was so much

240
00:12:54,544 --> 00:12:56,744
Speaker 4: the show trials in Moscow, but it was the one

241
00:12:56,784 --> 00:13:00,983
Speaker 4: you mentioned, the trial of Cardinal Vincente in Hungary. So

242
00:13:01,064 --> 00:13:04,743
Speaker 4: he was the Roman Catholic prelate. He was arrested why

243
00:13:04,824 --> 00:13:08,344
Speaker 4: Communist authorities, and after some months in prison, was put

244
00:13:08,384 --> 00:13:11,864
Speaker 4: on trial and concessed to crimes that he obviously had

245
00:13:11,864 --> 00:13:14,503
Speaker 4: not committed. In the rest of the world, it might

246
00:13:14,544 --> 00:13:17,144
Speaker 4: have been thought, what actually turned out to be true,

247
00:13:17,184 --> 00:13:20,744
Speaker 4: that he was just abused and essentially tortured in the

248
00:13:20,784 --> 00:13:23,864
Speaker 4: same ways that people had been torturing people since forever.

249
00:13:25,184 --> 00:13:31,224
Speaker 4: Sleep deprivation, intense loud interrogations that very repetitive, the usual

250
00:13:31,304 --> 00:13:33,984
Speaker 4: ways that you'd break a person's spirit. But at the

251
00:13:34,024 --> 00:13:37,624
Speaker 4: CIA they saw something different. They weren't concerned about the

252
00:13:37,624 --> 00:13:39,704
Speaker 4: fact that he was confessing to things he hadn't done,

253
00:13:39,703 --> 00:13:42,384
Speaker 4: because they could imagine a person being terrified enough to

254
00:13:42,424 --> 00:13:44,624
Speaker 4: do that, but they were focused on the way that

255
00:13:44,703 --> 00:13:47,024
Speaker 4: he looked, in the way that he hoped it was

256
00:13:47,064 --> 00:13:50,664
Speaker 4: in this kind of monotone, and they analyzed this. They thought,

257
00:13:50,703 --> 00:13:55,344
Speaker 4: this is showing that he's not speaking, somebody is speaking

258
00:13:55,504 --> 00:13:58,864
Speaker 4: through his mouth. This was wrong. It turned out you

259
00:13:58,864 --> 00:14:01,384
Speaker 4: had just been tortured the way other people were tortured

260
00:14:01,424 --> 00:14:04,264
Speaker 4: for many years. But at the CIA they didn't see

261
00:14:04,264 --> 00:14:05,824
Speaker 4: it that way, or at least they had a fear

262
00:14:06,064 --> 00:14:08,343
Speaker 4: that it was more than what you or I might

263
00:14:08,343 --> 00:14:13,264
Speaker 4: have noticed. That this was an example terrifying of how

264
00:14:13,703 --> 00:14:17,664
Speaker 4: the Soviets, the Communists had actually seized the mind of

265
00:14:17,703 --> 00:14:21,264
Speaker 4: another person. Then a few years later we had another

266
00:14:21,344 --> 00:14:25,784
Speaker 4: episode which the CIA, also in its panic, misinterpreted, and

267
00:14:25,824 --> 00:14:30,704
Speaker 4: that was the return of prisoners from Korea. A number

268
00:14:30,704 --> 00:14:36,184
Speaker 4: of American prisoners had written essays condemning aspects of American life,

269
00:14:36,424 --> 00:14:40,184
Speaker 4: including some African American soldiers who wrote about racism in America.

270
00:14:40,704 --> 00:14:44,824
Speaker 4: Some of those soldiers confessed to war crimes, including using

271
00:14:44,944 --> 00:14:48,824
Speaker 4: germ warfare, which the United States always insisted it never did.

272
00:14:49,184 --> 00:14:52,664
Speaker 4: And the idea slowly grew that these people must have

273
00:14:52,744 --> 00:14:56,784
Speaker 4: had their minds seized, and actually a number of these

274
00:14:57,024 --> 00:15:01,944
Speaker 4: prisoners were repatriated by train across Europe, and in their

275
00:15:01,984 --> 00:15:05,504
Speaker 4: train from the North Korea, they passed across China, and

276
00:15:05,544 --> 00:15:08,784
Speaker 4: they passed across Manchuria, and the CIA began to think

277
00:15:08,824 --> 00:15:11,544
Speaker 4: that maybe it was that train ride while they were

278
00:15:11,584 --> 00:15:15,144
Speaker 4: crossing Manchuria that they were administered either a drug or

279
00:15:15,304 --> 00:15:18,344
Speaker 4: put under some kind of a spell. And that's how

280
00:15:18,384 --> 00:15:23,104
Speaker 4: you get the phrase the Manchurian candidate. I was also mistaken.

281
00:15:23,544 --> 00:15:26,864
Speaker 4: But you can see how these episodes would have terrified

282
00:15:26,904 --> 00:15:29,544
Speaker 4: people at the CIA and led them to think, we

283
00:15:29,664 --> 00:15:30,944
Speaker 4: got to get on this project.

284
00:15:31,544 --> 00:15:34,344
Speaker 3: And Stalin did talk about like the new Soviet Man,

285
00:15:35,104 --> 00:15:35,984
Speaker 3: there was enough.

286
00:15:35,784 --> 00:15:39,784
Speaker 4: Out there if you wanted to believe it, you could

287
00:15:39,784 --> 00:15:41,704
Speaker 4: pick up pieces to make yourself believe.

288
00:15:41,704 --> 00:15:43,824
Speaker 2: And it was much bigger than the CIA. It was

289
00:15:43,864 --> 00:15:46,264
Speaker 2: a Korean War. There was a McCarthy who's a red scare.

290
00:15:46,744 --> 00:15:50,584
Speaker 2: Eisenhower had do little write a report in nineteen fifty

291
00:15:50,584 --> 00:15:53,024
Speaker 2: four that said, literally it said, if the United States

292
00:15:53,024 --> 00:15:56,464
Speaker 2: isn't going to survive, long standing concepts of fair play

293
00:15:56,544 --> 00:15:59,104
Speaker 2: must be reconsidered. So it was a mindset that wasn't

294
00:15:59,144 --> 00:15:59,944
Speaker 2: just at the CIA.

295
00:16:00,264 --> 00:16:04,024
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it was total in fact, as if the years passed,

296
00:16:04,104 --> 00:16:06,184
Speaker 4: the CIA actually turned out to be a little more

297
00:16:06,184 --> 00:16:09,184
Speaker 4: calm than some of the civilian agencies. But I want

298
00:16:09,184 --> 00:16:12,064
Speaker 4: to finish on the question of motives. What made these

299
00:16:12,104 --> 00:16:15,624
Speaker 4: officers believe it was possible. So I think the syndrome

300
00:16:15,984 --> 00:16:18,824
Speaker 4: I just discussed of these episodes played a big role.

301
00:16:18,864 --> 00:16:21,144
Speaker 4: But I think there was another factor, and it has

302
00:16:21,184 --> 00:16:24,944
Speaker 4: to do with something more diffuse. That's the cultural conditioning

303
00:16:25,264 --> 00:16:28,144
Speaker 4: that you would have had growing up in late nineteenth

304
00:16:28,144 --> 00:16:31,624
Speaker 4: early twentieth centuries. Think of all the bucks, all the movies,

305
00:16:32,024 --> 00:16:36,104
Speaker 4: all the stories gaslight, all those movies about somebody dropping

306
00:16:36,184 --> 00:16:40,944
Speaker 4: a pill into somebody's drink, or you're swinging the watch

307
00:16:40,984 --> 00:16:44,064
Speaker 4: in front of somebody's eyes. Then he walks into the embassy,

308
00:16:44,064 --> 00:16:46,904
Speaker 4: opens the saves, takes out the files and gives them

309
00:16:46,904 --> 00:16:50,184
Speaker 4: to you. I think these guys were impressed with that,

310
00:16:50,624 --> 00:16:55,944
Speaker 4: and they figured that what screenwriters and novelists could imagine,

311
00:16:56,384 --> 00:16:59,544
Speaker 4: they could also make real and the fact, and they

312
00:16:59,824 --> 00:17:03,864
Speaker 4: over reacted to those stories and thought that they weren't

313
00:17:03,904 --> 00:17:06,664
Speaker 4: just made up. Actually there's something there. And so I

314
00:17:06,704 --> 00:17:10,584
Speaker 4: think they came into office with that cultural background, which

315
00:17:10,664 --> 00:17:13,504
Speaker 4: probably many other Americans also had, and then they saw

316
00:17:13,584 --> 00:17:16,864
Speaker 4: these episodes. It all seemed to fit together, and that's

317
00:17:16,904 --> 00:17:19,304
Speaker 4: why they brought Gottlieb in and set him off on

318
00:17:19,344 --> 00:17:37,464
Speaker 4: an MK ultra. You know, even though I.

319
00:17:37,424 --> 00:17:40,464
Speaker 2: Spent like thirty years inside CIA, I never really knew

320
00:17:40,504 --> 00:17:42,864
Speaker 2: much of anything about MK Ultra, and I learned almost

321
00:17:42,904 --> 00:17:45,184
Speaker 2: everything I know about it from your excellent book. But

322
00:17:45,264 --> 00:17:47,224
Speaker 2: from that, there's a few things that jumped out to me.

323
00:17:47,224 --> 00:17:49,384
Speaker 2: I'm interested in your comments on I'm just buried me

324
00:17:49,384 --> 00:17:52,023
Speaker 2: for a second. One was this was much bigger than

325
00:17:52,064 --> 00:17:57,984
Speaker 2: I thought. It included US military, civilian experts, companies, doctors, universities, clinics.

326
00:17:57,984 --> 00:18:01,904
Speaker 2: It wasn't just a secret in house effort. Number Two,

327
00:18:01,984 --> 00:18:05,744
Speaker 2: it wasn't necessarily supported by most of the CIA except

328
00:18:05,744 --> 00:18:07,264
Speaker 2: for the top leadership. I think it was sort of

329
00:18:07,264 --> 00:18:10,184
Speaker 2: a bastard stepchild in the agency for a lot of

330
00:18:10,544 --> 00:18:13,304
Speaker 2: people in the operation side of things and the security

331
00:18:13,344 --> 00:18:15,504
Speaker 2: side of things. And three, which is probably the most

332
00:18:15,504 --> 00:18:18,304
Speaker 2: troubling of all, is that it was by no means

333
00:18:18,344 --> 00:18:22,224
Speaker 2: a rogue CIA program. I think the program was supported

334
00:18:22,264 --> 00:18:25,544
Speaker 2: by US presidents. We now see it as a shameful episode.

335
00:18:25,584 --> 00:18:27,824
Speaker 2: But as I read your book and other histories at

336
00:18:27,824 --> 00:18:30,344
Speaker 2: a time, even if it wasn't secret, I think a

337
00:18:30,424 --> 00:18:32,784
Speaker 2: large part of the population might have supported it.

338
00:18:33,144 --> 00:18:35,304
Speaker 4: I'll tell you that little town where I grew up

339
00:18:35,344 --> 00:18:38,824
Speaker 4: also is the place where a former CIA director has retired.

340
00:18:39,064 --> 00:18:40,864
Speaker 4: And I ran into him in the line at the

341
00:18:40,904 --> 00:18:44,024
Speaker 4: coffee shop once while I was working on Poisoner in Chief,

342
00:18:44,064 --> 00:18:46,104
Speaker 4: and I said, Oh, I got a question to ask you.

343
00:18:46,384 --> 00:18:51,744
Speaker 4: I'm writing a biography from the major CIA officer. He said,

344
00:18:51,744 --> 00:18:54,424
Speaker 4: who's that. I said to Sidney Gottlieb. He said, never

345
00:18:54,464 --> 00:18:57,344
Speaker 4: heard of it. Of course he wasn't in office at

346
00:18:57,344 --> 00:19:00,224
Speaker 4: the time that Bidney Gottlieg was there. You're right that

347
00:19:00,344 --> 00:19:04,864
Speaker 4: this program was a major secret even inside the CIA. However,

348
00:19:05,384 --> 00:19:08,144
Speaker 4: little by little people began to pick up on what

349
00:19:08,184 --> 00:19:11,624
Speaker 4: Gottlieb was doing. And I found an amazing memo from

350
00:19:11,664 --> 00:19:15,024
Speaker 4: Sheffield Edwards, the longtime head of security for the CIA,

351
00:19:15,144 --> 00:19:18,023
Speaker 4: a memo to other CIA people in the building, and

352
00:19:18,104 --> 00:19:21,664
Speaker 4: he said to watch out about taking punch out of

353
00:19:21,704 --> 00:19:25,864
Speaker 4: the punch bowl at the customers party, because Godlyeve is

354
00:19:25,944 --> 00:19:28,064
Speaker 4: around and you don't know what he might be putting

355
00:19:28,144 --> 00:19:32,144
Speaker 4: in punch bowl. So that already suggests that some people

356
00:19:32,144 --> 00:19:35,664
Speaker 4: already knew about it. Actually. Gottlieb later told a story

357
00:19:35,664 --> 00:19:38,544
Speaker 4: about being on an airplane and walking back, going up

358
00:19:38,544 --> 00:19:40,263
Speaker 4: to the front of getting a drink and then walking

359
00:19:40,344 --> 00:19:42,664
Speaker 4: back to his seat. And as he's walking back, he

360
00:19:42,664 --> 00:19:45,264
Speaker 4: hears somebody say to him, is that LSD you're drinking?

361
00:19:45,704 --> 00:19:47,584
Speaker 4: And he was terrified because this is supposed to be

362
00:19:47,624 --> 00:19:50,424
Speaker 4: a huge secret. He turned around. It was alan dullish

363
00:19:50,824 --> 00:19:55,464
Speaker 4: to be to be afraid. So I didn't want to

364
00:19:55,464 --> 00:19:57,424
Speaker 4: get too far ahead of the story.

365
00:19:58,064 --> 00:20:00,864
Speaker 3: But LSD, we all know what it is or him,

366
00:20:01,224 --> 00:20:03,384
Speaker 3: But in those days they didn't know. Right it was

367
00:20:03,904 --> 00:20:07,304
Speaker 3: made in forty it was synthesize in forty three or

368
00:20:07,344 --> 00:20:10,544
Speaker 3: something like that in Switzerland, and no one understood what

369
00:20:10,624 --> 00:20:12,984
Speaker 3: it was back then or how.

370
00:20:12,904 --> 00:20:13,984
Speaker 4: Dangerous it was.

371
00:20:14,184 --> 00:20:16,864
Speaker 3: And so maybe maybe if you could just take us

372
00:20:16,904 --> 00:20:19,664
Speaker 3: down a quick back alleyway, which I think is fascinating

373
00:20:19,704 --> 00:20:24,304
Speaker 3: of how two things, how Cia became like the largest

374
00:20:24,384 --> 00:20:28,144
Speaker 3: purveyor and owner of LSD in the world, and what

375
00:20:28,344 --> 00:20:29,424
Speaker 3: happened to Tusco.

376
00:20:29,624 --> 00:20:35,424
Speaker 4: Well, you're right, Gottlieb was the first LSD maven and

377
00:20:35,504 --> 00:20:39,984
Speaker 4: in nineteen fifty three Gottlieb developed this idea that LSD

378
00:20:40,224 --> 00:20:42,224
Speaker 4: could be, as one of his chemists put it, the

379
00:20:42,344 --> 00:20:44,704
Speaker 4: key that could unlock the universe. In other words, this

380
00:20:44,824 --> 00:20:48,744
Speaker 4: might be the way into mind control. So he persuaded

381
00:20:48,784 --> 00:20:54,624
Speaker 4: the CIA to buy the entire world supply of LSD,

382
00:20:54,944 --> 00:20:57,224
Speaker 4: and the chemical company in Switzerland was actually happy to

383
00:20:57,224 --> 00:20:59,104
Speaker 4: get rid of it. They didn't want to be in

384
00:20:59,144 --> 00:20:59,744
Speaker 4: that business.

385
00:20:59,864 --> 00:21:02,784
Speaker 3: How big was the entire world supply when the CIA.

386
00:21:02,504 --> 00:21:05,784
Speaker 4: Faced You could have held it in a small glass,

387
00:21:06,024 --> 00:21:08,824
Speaker 4: but of course as very potent in very small amounts.

388
00:21:08,984 --> 00:21:13,264
Speaker 4: So God he was fascinated by LSD, particularly because it

389
00:21:13,384 --> 00:21:17,064
Speaker 4: was so potent, no smell, no taste, and you just

390
00:21:17,104 --> 00:21:22,344
Speaker 4: needed the tiniest amount to produce spectacular effects. He used

391
00:21:22,384 --> 00:21:26,984
Speaker 4: the LSD in two ways. One was on experiments on

392
00:21:27,184 --> 00:21:30,944
Speaker 4: human beings, usually people that had no idea what was

393
00:21:30,944 --> 00:21:34,504
Speaker 4: happening to them. Part of these experiments were conducted in Europe,

394
00:21:34,504 --> 00:21:37,744
Speaker 4: where he was freer to experiment people to depth if

395
00:21:37,744 --> 00:21:40,304
Speaker 4: he wanted to, and there LSD was just a part

396
00:21:40,624 --> 00:21:43,904
Speaker 4: of extreme drug cocktails that he would put together. Or

397
00:21:43,904 --> 00:21:47,064
Speaker 4: he'd have somebody locked into kind of a coffin like space,

398
00:21:47,624 --> 00:21:52,104
Speaker 4: then he would overdose them with amphetamines so they become hyperactive,

399
00:21:52,304 --> 00:21:56,304
Speaker 4: then overdose them immediately with an overdose of sedatives so

400
00:21:56,344 --> 00:21:59,264
Speaker 4: they'd go into a coma. And then in the space

401
00:21:59,344 --> 00:22:03,504
Speaker 4: between hyperactivity and comatose, he would inject them with all

402
00:22:03,584 --> 00:22:07,263
Speaker 4: kinds of drugs, including LSD, to see what their tolerance was.

403
00:22:07,584 --> 00:22:09,224
Speaker 4: We know that he did this also in the United

404
00:22:09,264 --> 00:22:12,344
Speaker 4: States at several prisms. Of course, if you need human

405
00:22:12,384 --> 00:22:15,944
Speaker 4: subjects that are unwitting, prisms are a great place to

406
00:22:15,984 --> 00:22:20,464
Speaker 4: get them. Whitey Bulger, right, yeah. Whitey Bulger, the famous

407
00:22:20,464 --> 00:22:23,144
Speaker 4: Boston gangster, is one of the few people we know

408
00:22:23,464 --> 00:22:26,264
Speaker 4: who later wrote about this, and he didn't know what

409
00:22:26,304 --> 00:22:29,464
Speaker 4: was happening to him until twenty years later when the

410
00:22:29,504 --> 00:22:32,504
Speaker 4: news came out, and he was so furious that he

411
00:22:32,584 --> 00:22:35,904
Speaker 4: told the other gangsters in his crew, I'm going on

412
00:22:36,024 --> 00:22:38,584
Speaker 4: to Atlanta. I'm going to find that doctor and I'm

413
00:22:38,584 --> 00:22:40,464
Speaker 4: going to kill it. I don't think he did, although

414
00:22:40,504 --> 00:22:42,544
Speaker 4: that doctor did die at a young age and so

415
00:22:42,624 --> 00:22:48,144
Speaker 4: called accident. But we have, for example, the protocol of

416
00:22:48,184 --> 00:22:53,384
Speaker 4: an experiment that a prison doctor working for Gottlieb carried

417
00:22:53,424 --> 00:22:57,984
Speaker 4: out at the Federal Penitentiary in Lexington, Kentucky. In this experiment,

418
00:22:58,424 --> 00:23:02,344
Speaker 4: seven African American men were placed into a cell and

419
00:23:02,424 --> 00:23:05,784
Speaker 4: without their knowledge, given what we're described as triple and

420
00:23:05,904 --> 00:23:10,864
Speaker 4: quadruple doses of LSD every day for sev seven days.

421
00:23:11,064 --> 00:23:14,464
Speaker 4: The idea was to find out if that could destroy

422
00:23:14,544 --> 00:23:17,784
Speaker 4: a person's mind. Now we don't have the ultimate result

423
00:23:17,824 --> 00:23:19,944
Speaker 4: of that experiment, but I'm guessing the answer is yes,

424
00:23:20,224 --> 00:23:24,264
Speaker 4: that could definitely destroy someone's mind. So those were the

425
00:23:24,344 --> 00:23:29,384
Speaker 4: more grotesque ways that Gottleib used LSD. But that wasn't all.

426
00:23:29,664 --> 00:23:33,664
Speaker 4: Gotlieb wanted to know how ordinary people would respond to

427
00:23:33,784 --> 00:23:37,264
Speaker 4: LSD in a clinical setting, knowing that they were being

428
00:23:37,304 --> 00:23:41,224
Speaker 4: given LSD. Since the CIA doesn't have hospitals or clinics,

429
00:23:41,424 --> 00:23:45,984
Speaker 4: Gottlieb set up a couple of bogus medical foundations they

430
00:23:46,064 --> 00:23:51,104
Speaker 4: printed up stationary. With that stationary, he wrote to clinics

431
00:23:51,144 --> 00:23:54,544
Speaker 4: and hospitals around the United States and told them quite

432
00:23:54,544 --> 00:23:56,544
Speaker 4: openly what he wanted. He said, we have this new

433
00:23:56,704 --> 00:24:01,384
Speaker 4: psychoactive drug called LSD. We would like you to administer

434
00:24:01,464 --> 00:24:04,064
Speaker 4: it to people. Put an ad in the newspaper, say

435
00:24:04,104 --> 00:24:07,864
Speaker 4: it's a psychedelic drug, and ask people for volunteers. If

436
00:24:07,864 --> 00:24:09,104
Speaker 4: you want to come in and try it, you can

437
00:24:09,144 --> 00:24:12,344
Speaker 4: pay them with money that we will supply, and all

438
00:24:12,344 --> 00:24:14,704
Speaker 4: you have to do then is write up reports about

439
00:24:14,904 --> 00:24:18,384
Speaker 4: how they respond. So almost overnight, a big market grew

440
00:24:18,464 --> 00:24:20,064
Speaker 4: up all over the country because it was a good

441
00:24:20,104 --> 00:24:23,784
Speaker 4: money maker for hospitals, and Gottlee would send them these

442
00:24:23,784 --> 00:24:28,184
Speaker 4: piles of LSD. So who were among the very first volunteers.

443
00:24:28,544 --> 00:24:31,744
Speaker 4: One of them was Alan Ginsberg, the beat poet who

444
00:24:31,824 --> 00:24:35,064
Speaker 4: went on to become one of the great gurus of LSD.

445
00:24:35,344 --> 00:24:39,224
Speaker 4: He took his LSD while listening to Wagner on headphones

446
00:24:39,544 --> 00:24:43,864
Speaker 4: in a clinic in California. Another one was Robert Hunter,

447
00:24:44,024 --> 00:24:47,504
Speaker 4: the songwriter for The Grateful Dead. He loved it, and

448
00:24:47,544 --> 00:24:50,464
Speaker 4: he took the LSD, brought it back to The Grateful Dead,

449
00:24:50,504 --> 00:24:53,264
Speaker 4: and that went on to the Hold Grateful Dead Phenonmen.

450
00:24:53,544 --> 00:24:57,304
Speaker 4: Another one was Ken Keasey, the author of that counterculture

451
00:24:57,344 --> 00:25:00,624
Speaker 4: bible called One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, And I

452
00:25:00,664 --> 00:25:03,064
Speaker 4: saw an interview with him in which he said, I

453
00:25:03,144 --> 00:25:05,744
Speaker 4: did gather material for that book while working in a

454
00:25:05,984 --> 00:25:09,104
Speaker 4: mental hospital. However, that's not the reason I went to

455
00:25:09,144 --> 00:25:12,023
Speaker 4: work there. The reason I went to work there is

456
00:25:12,064 --> 00:25:14,504
Speaker 4: so that I could get into the pharmacy and steal

457
00:25:14,624 --> 00:25:17,664
Speaker 4: the LSD and give it to all my friends. So

458
00:25:18,264 --> 00:25:21,304
Speaker 4: it was through Godly that all of this leaked out

459
00:25:21,344 --> 00:25:24,584
Speaker 4: into the public. While I was researching Poisoner in Chief,

460
00:25:24,664 --> 00:25:27,144
Speaker 4: I found an interview with John Lennon and they asked

461
00:25:27,184 --> 00:25:30,984
Speaker 4: him about LSD. His first line was, we must always

462
00:25:31,104 --> 00:25:34,224
Speaker 4: remember to thank the CIA. He had never heard of

463
00:25:34,264 --> 00:25:37,544
Speaker 4: Sidney Godleeb. Nobody had, but if he had, he would

464
00:25:37,584 --> 00:25:40,904
Speaker 4: have said he must always remember to thank Sydney Godleeb.

465
00:25:41,144 --> 00:25:45,704
Speaker 4: So the irony is that the drum Sidney Gottlieb hoped

466
00:25:45,984 --> 00:25:49,104
Speaker 4: would give the CIA the power to rule the world

467
00:25:49,744 --> 00:25:53,424
Speaker 4: actually wound up fueling a generational rebellion which was aimed

468
00:25:53,424 --> 00:25:54,664
Speaker 4: at destroying everything with the.

469
00:25:54,704 --> 00:25:57,704
Speaker 2: Ice, and Godlieb took LSD right.

470
00:25:57,944 --> 00:26:00,304
Speaker 4: By his own account, he took LSD more than two

471
00:26:00,464 --> 00:26:03,344
Speaker 4: hundred times. I began to wonder as I was doing

472
00:26:03,424 --> 00:26:07,104
Speaker 4: this research. His experiments were so bizarre. The things that

473
00:26:07,144 --> 00:26:09,064
Speaker 4: he came up with to try to do to people

474
00:26:09,064 --> 00:26:11,544
Speaker 4: were so strange. Did he come up with some of

475
00:26:11,584 --> 00:26:15,144
Speaker 4: these ideas while he was on acid? And then while

476
00:26:15,144 --> 00:26:17,344
Speaker 4: I was doing my book tour, somebody came up with

477
00:26:17,384 --> 00:26:19,584
Speaker 4: something that I found even more chilling. Could he have

478
00:26:19,664 --> 00:26:23,864
Speaker 4: been on LSD while he was actually overseeing the worker sessions?

479
00:26:24,304 --> 00:26:27,784
Speaker 4: Nobody knows. You know. While I was researching the book,

480
00:26:28,024 --> 00:26:32,023
Speaker 4: I wanted to speak to Gottlieb's adult children who were

481
00:26:32,024 --> 00:26:34,584
Speaker 4: still surviving, and one of them was a sort of

482
00:26:34,624 --> 00:26:36,984
Speaker 4: prominent figure. He lived in Wisconsin, where he was the

483
00:26:37,024 --> 00:26:39,984
Speaker 4: state archivis. He wrote a book about the labor movement.

484
00:26:40,264 --> 00:26:41,744
Speaker 4: So I sent him a note and I said, I

485
00:26:41,784 --> 00:26:43,864
Speaker 4: want to talk to you about your dad. And I

486
00:26:43,904 --> 00:26:46,904
Speaker 4: didn't hear back. So I used all my journalism tricks.

487
00:26:46,984 --> 00:26:49,464
Speaker 4: I went on Facebook, I went on Twitter, I sent

488
00:26:49,544 --> 00:26:52,864
Speaker 4: a registered mail, I found out other email addresses for him.

489
00:26:52,904 --> 00:26:55,504
Speaker 4: I didn't hear anything. So I finally decided I got

490
00:26:55,504 --> 00:26:58,184
Speaker 4: to go and do that journalistic thing called door stopping.

491
00:26:58,264 --> 00:27:00,544
Speaker 4: I just got to go to Madison and I'm gonna

492
00:27:00,584 --> 00:27:03,504
Speaker 4: just sit there until he comes out. However, just before

493
00:27:03,544 --> 00:27:05,344
Speaker 4: I was able to do that, it was outset to

494
00:27:05,384 --> 00:27:07,783
Speaker 4: do that, I happened to find a person that was

495
00:27:08,184 --> 00:27:10,744
Speaker 4: very close to the family, and this person told me,

496
00:27:10,824 --> 00:27:15,424
Speaker 4: don't waste your time. Because after gottlie died, his widow

497
00:27:15,584 --> 00:27:20,544
Speaker 4: called the children together and made them promise never to

498
00:27:20,664 --> 00:27:23,624
Speaker 4: speak about their father. So he took a lot of

499
00:27:23,664 --> 00:27:27,704
Speaker 4: secrets his grave. They took at least some they're still

500
00:27:27,704 --> 00:27:28,544
Speaker 4: walking around with them.

501
00:27:28,584 --> 00:27:32,344
Speaker 3: I'm sure not again. Nots excused this shameful episode. But

502
00:27:32,744 --> 00:27:35,384
Speaker 3: innocent isn't the right word. But at least when reading

503
00:27:35,384 --> 00:27:38,544
Speaker 3: about the very start of when they're experimenting with LSD,

504
00:27:39,064 --> 00:27:43,144
Speaker 3: before it got really nasty, they were like spiking each

505
00:27:43,144 --> 00:27:46,464
Speaker 3: other's drinks coffee around the office. They didn't realize what

506
00:27:46,504 --> 00:27:49,584
Speaker 3: they were dealing with. Right inside of CAA, inside of

507
00:27:49,624 --> 00:27:53,664
Speaker 3: the program. They again, before the death started, they were

508
00:27:53,664 --> 00:27:55,944
Speaker 3: like doing it to each other just to see what

509
00:27:56,024 --> 00:27:58,784
Speaker 3: was going on before they started doing this clinically, which

510
00:27:58,864 --> 00:28:00,783
Speaker 3: sort of tells me they didn't really understand what they

511
00:28:00,784 --> 00:28:03,224
Speaker 3: were at least initially, what they were involved in, how

512
00:28:03,264 --> 00:28:04,144
Speaker 3: serious it could get.

513
00:28:04,344 --> 00:28:09,984
Speaker 4: Well, it's a tradition in medical search that people sometimes

514
00:28:08,864 --> 00:28:13,384
Speaker 4: the dose themselves or the people in their office, and

515
00:28:13,464 --> 00:28:16,464
Speaker 4: Godley did that and some of them. You're absolutely right.

516
00:28:16,704 --> 00:28:20,784
Speaker 4: There was or CIA employees who he dosed without their knowledge,

517
00:28:21,104 --> 00:28:23,104
Speaker 4: maybe because he just wanted to watch them and see

518
00:28:23,104 --> 00:28:23,664
Speaker 4: how they would be.

519
00:28:23,704 --> 00:28:26,504
Speaker 2: Hang, Yeah, let's riff off of that one then to

520
00:28:26,584 --> 00:28:28,704
Speaker 2: talk about Frank Olsen, right, because that was one of

521
00:28:28,744 --> 00:28:32,744
Speaker 2: the things that still comes back that defines the program

522
00:28:32,824 --> 00:28:35,464
Speaker 2: and supports a lot of conspiracy theories and some that

523
00:28:35,504 --> 00:28:36,464
Speaker 2: are correct.

524
00:28:36,744 --> 00:28:38,344
Speaker 4: But I did want it before we touched on that

525
00:28:38,904 --> 00:28:42,584
Speaker 4: real quick on Tusco. Ah. Yes, the CIA was interested

526
00:28:42,864 --> 00:28:46,424
Speaker 4: in finding out anything he could about LSD, and Gottlieb

527
00:28:46,544 --> 00:28:50,984
Speaker 4: was willing to certify any experiment that came across his desk.

528
00:28:51,264 --> 00:28:55,144
Speaker 4: In Atlanta, exactly at the place where Whitey Bulger was

529
00:28:55,184 --> 00:28:58,224
Speaker 4: being dosed with LSD, there was a doctor who was

530
00:28:58,584 --> 00:29:02,184
Speaker 4: an integral part of MK Ultra and he was actually

531
00:29:02,304 --> 00:29:06,584
Speaker 4: he filmed himself on television taking LSD himself. And they

532
00:29:06,624 --> 00:29:09,784
Speaker 4: got this idea that they would try to see if

533
00:29:09,824 --> 00:29:14,144
Speaker 4: a dart full of a number of doses of LSD

534
00:29:14,584 --> 00:29:18,504
Speaker 4: would affect an elephant. And they actually went to the

535
00:29:18,624 --> 00:29:23,704
Speaker 4: zoo in Atlanta and shot this elephant named Tusco with

536
00:29:23,904 --> 00:29:27,064
Speaker 4: a dart packed with we don't know how much LSD,

537
00:29:27,304 --> 00:29:29,944
Speaker 4: just to watch and see what would happen. Could LSD,

538
00:29:30,584 --> 00:29:35,984
Speaker 4: that tiny little substance, colorless, orderless, clearer, actually be so

539
00:29:36,064 --> 00:29:40,024
Speaker 4: potent as to affect an elephant? And sure enough, after

540
00:29:40,144 --> 00:29:43,024
Speaker 4: a little while, the elephant gave a tremendous dump and

541
00:29:43,064 --> 00:29:44,264
Speaker 4: then fell over and died.

542
00:29:44,664 --> 00:29:47,264
Speaker 2: But big to John's question, which is much more serious, Yeah,

543
00:29:47,304 --> 00:29:50,064
Speaker 2: because Frank, the Frank Olson episode is sort of when

544
00:29:50,064 --> 00:29:51,344
Speaker 2: this begins to turn.

545
00:29:51,424 --> 00:29:54,264
Speaker 4: I think Godley didn't work all by himself. Of course,

546
00:29:54,304 --> 00:29:57,664
Speaker 4: he had a small crew of chemists. They were all specialists.

547
00:29:58,144 --> 00:30:01,984
Speaker 4: It was a tightly knit group that had security even

548
00:30:02,024 --> 00:30:04,904
Speaker 4: way beyond the security of the CIA, so much so

549
00:30:05,024 --> 00:30:07,104
Speaker 4: that at this time even people in the CIA didn't

550
00:30:07,144 --> 00:30:09,384
Speaker 4: know what was happening. And those people were working at

551
00:30:09,384 --> 00:30:13,104
Speaker 4: a They had their labs in a military base in Maryland.

552
00:30:13,304 --> 00:30:16,904
Speaker 4: It was a small, tight knit group. One of those

553
00:30:16,944 --> 00:30:21,344
Speaker 4: scientists was Frank Olson. His specialty was aerosoults, and he

554
00:30:21,384 --> 00:30:25,504
Speaker 4: would aerosolize poisons. The idea was now actually later on,

555
00:30:25,544 --> 00:30:28,304
Speaker 4: we had this idea that we would spray lsd into

556
00:30:28,344 --> 00:30:31,744
Speaker 4: a recording studio where Fidel Castro was giving a speech.

557
00:30:32,064 --> 00:30:33,784
Speaker 4: That was the kind of thing that Frank Olsen was

558
00:30:33,824 --> 00:30:37,144
Speaker 4: working on. How do you aerosolize poisons? As with the

559
00:30:37,224 --> 00:30:40,744
Speaker 4: other kinds of poisons, these were administered to unknowing victims

560
00:30:40,784 --> 00:30:45,784
Speaker 4: and probably killed some of them. So Olson became disenchanted

561
00:30:45,824 --> 00:30:48,304
Speaker 4: with his work. I talked to his son, who said

562
00:30:49,104 --> 00:30:51,864
Speaker 4: he would sometimes come back and he'd say that he

563
00:30:51,904 --> 00:30:54,064
Speaker 4: got in in the morning and looked in at the

564
00:30:54,104 --> 00:30:56,464
Speaker 4: cage of monkeys that he had dosed the night before.

565
00:30:56,824 --> 00:30:59,224
Speaker 4: And they were all dead, and this was considered to

566
00:30:59,264 --> 00:31:03,144
Speaker 4: be a successful experiment. After a while, he became uncomfortable

567
00:31:03,144 --> 00:31:06,904
Speaker 4: with this. Then he was in Britain where the CIA

568
00:31:07,104 --> 00:31:12,784
Speaker 4: was also conducting k Ultra experiments in conjunction with their

569
00:31:12,864 --> 00:31:16,824
Speaker 4: British counterparts, and he was present at one of those

570
00:31:17,224 --> 00:31:21,824
Speaker 4: experiments in which an aerosol that he designed was used

571
00:31:21,904 --> 00:31:26,064
Speaker 4: on a victim and the guy died. He probably watched

572
00:31:26,144 --> 00:31:28,184
Speaker 4: him die. He actually came home and asked one of

573
00:31:28,224 --> 00:31:30,504
Speaker 4: his friends, have you ever seen a man die? And

574
00:31:30,544 --> 00:31:33,424
Speaker 4: this guy said no, well I have, And he told

575
00:31:33,424 --> 00:31:36,304
Speaker 4: his friend they have had it not only with with

576
00:31:36,464 --> 00:31:38,864
Speaker 4: mk Ultra, but with the CIA. I want to leave

577
00:31:38,904 --> 00:31:41,304
Speaker 4: the CIA. I can't do this anymore. And then he

578
00:31:41,344 --> 00:31:44,384
Speaker 4: said to the guy, do you know a good journalist.

579
00:31:44,704 --> 00:31:48,704
Speaker 4: So Frank Olsen didn't keep his discontent secret. He mentioned

580
00:31:48,704 --> 00:31:50,704
Speaker 4: it to a few people. This guy immediately back to

581
00:31:50,784 --> 00:31:55,464
Speaker 4: his superiors at mk Ultra. At one point, just before

582
00:31:55,504 --> 00:31:59,384
Speaker 4: Thanksgiving in nineteen fifty three, Frank Olsen and the other

583
00:31:59,504 --> 00:32:02,784
Speaker 4: chemists who were involved in mk Ultra, including Gottlieb, went

584
00:32:02,824 --> 00:32:05,944
Speaker 4: off for a retreat. It later turned out that Frank

585
00:32:05,984 --> 00:32:09,264
Speaker 4: Olsen had been given LSD in his drink without his knowledge.

586
00:32:09,824 --> 00:32:13,024
Speaker 4: Maybe it was an effort by the other mk ULTRA

587
00:32:13,144 --> 00:32:16,664
Speaker 4: scientist and Gottlieb to loosen his tongue and see if

588
00:32:16,664 --> 00:32:20,024
Speaker 4: he was really thinking about leaving. But in any case,

589
00:32:20,144 --> 00:32:22,984
Speaker 4: nothing came out of it, and a few days later

590
00:32:24,864 --> 00:32:28,704
Speaker 4: Olsen was brought to New York by his mk Ultra

591
00:32:28,904 --> 00:32:32,584
Speaker 4: comrades to consult with the psychiatrist. While he was staying

592
00:32:32,664 --> 00:32:36,064
Speaker 4: in a hotel across the street from Penn Station, he

593
00:32:36,144 --> 00:32:40,104
Speaker 4: went out the tenth floor window and died immediately after

594
00:32:40,144 --> 00:32:45,064
Speaker 4: hitting the ground. Now, this was reported as the suicide

595
00:32:45,104 --> 00:32:48,304
Speaker 4: of an army scientist, but he wasn't an army scientist. Obviously,

596
00:32:48,344 --> 00:32:51,064
Speaker 4: he was working for the CIA. But that was the

597
00:32:51,184 --> 00:32:53,664
Speaker 4: end of the story that it was a suicide because

598
00:32:54,224 --> 00:32:57,904
Speaker 4: he had been very distressed. Now, his wife didn't believe

599
00:32:57,944 --> 00:33:00,464
Speaker 4: that he'd been that distressed, that he hadn't been suicidal,

600
00:33:00,504 --> 00:33:03,664
Speaker 4: But there was nothing else to say, and nothing happened

601
00:33:03,664 --> 00:33:07,704
Speaker 4: for another twenty years, and then in the mid seventies,

602
00:33:08,064 --> 00:33:12,984
Speaker 4: when a lot of CIA misdeeds became public, also material

603
00:33:13,024 --> 00:33:17,384
Speaker 4: about mk Ultra became public, and one of the reports

604
00:33:17,504 --> 00:33:21,344
Speaker 4: prepared by a committee investigating committee headed by Nelson Rockefeller

605
00:33:21,584 --> 00:33:25,744
Speaker 4: came up with the news that at this cabin meeting

606
00:33:25,864 --> 00:33:29,504
Speaker 4: twenty years earlier, frankels that had been secretly given LSD.

607
00:33:29,864 --> 00:33:32,304
Speaker 4: So then we get story number two. He didn't commit

608
00:33:32,344 --> 00:33:36,544
Speaker 4: suicide because he was distressed. He committed suicide because we

609
00:33:36,704 --> 00:33:39,904
Speaker 4: the CIA unfortunately gave him LSD and that just set

610
00:33:39,944 --> 00:33:43,184
Speaker 4: off his psychosis and that pushed him to jump out

611
00:33:43,184 --> 00:33:46,024
Speaker 4: the window. So that was story number two. Then you

612
00:33:46,104 --> 00:33:51,664
Speaker 4: flash forward another twenty plus years. Some other documents came out,

613
00:33:51,664 --> 00:33:55,944
Speaker 4: including something that was called the CIA Assassination Manual, which

614
00:33:55,984 --> 00:33:58,104
Speaker 4: I think was written by Gottlieb. It had a lot

615
00:33:58,144 --> 00:33:59,544
Speaker 4: to do with how do you not only how do

616
00:33:59,584 --> 00:34:03,224
Speaker 4: you kill people, but have you softened them up for interrogation.

617
00:34:03,824 --> 00:34:06,224
Speaker 4: One of the things that he wrote in there is

618
00:34:06,264 --> 00:34:08,944
Speaker 4: that the one of the best ways to kill someone

619
00:34:09,024 --> 00:34:10,744
Speaker 4: and not be noticed is to throw him out of

620
00:34:10,784 --> 00:34:12,984
Speaker 4: a high window. But you should always hit him in

621
00:34:12,984 --> 00:34:17,104
Speaker 4: the back of the head first. So Frank Olsen's son

622
00:34:17,783 --> 00:34:21,303
Speaker 4: had the body exhumed and he had a coroner go

623
00:34:21,424 --> 00:34:25,703
Speaker 4: over it. Sure enough is a heavy blow on the forehead,

624
00:34:25,984 --> 00:34:29,864
Speaker 4: and the coroner came to the conclusion that he was

625
00:34:29,944 --> 00:34:32,104
Speaker 4: hit on the head and was thrown out the window.

626
00:34:32,344 --> 00:34:34,743
Speaker 4: And a New York police detective who went back to

627
00:34:34,783 --> 00:34:37,344
Speaker 4: investigate this, went into the room and you can actually

628
00:34:37,344 --> 00:34:39,464
Speaker 4: see the video of this, and he said, the story

629
00:34:39,623 --> 00:34:42,223
Speaker 4: just doesn't make sense. That there was one other guy

630
00:34:42,263 --> 00:34:45,104
Speaker 4: in the room who was the deputy director of mk Ultra,

631
00:34:45,464 --> 00:34:48,663
Speaker 4: And he said Olson ran across the room and dove

632
00:34:48,783 --> 00:34:52,143
Speaker 4: through the window and jumped out. The window doesn't open

633
00:34:52,384 --> 00:34:54,584
Speaker 4: very high, the room is not very big, so he

634
00:34:54,584 --> 00:34:57,783
Speaker 4: couldn't get up any speed, and as the detective said,

635
00:34:57,864 --> 00:35:00,024
Speaker 4: there wouldn't be any reason why he couldn't just open

636
00:35:00,064 --> 00:35:04,223
Speaker 4: the window and just slip out. Story number three is

637
00:35:04,663 --> 00:35:07,343
Speaker 4: it wasn't that he was psychologically disturbed, and it wasn't

638
00:35:07,384 --> 00:35:09,944
Speaker 4: the LSD that set him off. He was m to

639
00:35:10,024 --> 00:35:14,143
Speaker 4: keep him quiet. Now, there is no smoking gun that

640
00:35:14,223 --> 00:35:20,783
Speaker 4: there's no absolute evidence. There's probably some file somewhere. However, evidence,

641
00:35:21,223 --> 00:35:25,263
Speaker 4: although it's quite damning, is all circumstantial. However, if you

642
00:35:25,263 --> 00:35:29,544
Speaker 4: put yourself in the minds of godly and whoever he

643
00:35:29,623 --> 00:35:33,223
Speaker 4: might have consulted with, you can understand why they might

644
00:35:33,263 --> 00:35:35,504
Speaker 4: have thought, we hate to do this to learn of

645
00:35:35,544 --> 00:35:38,823
Speaker 4: our own, but this is too serious. If this guy

646
00:35:38,944 --> 00:35:41,983
Speaker 4: does what he seems to be ready to do call

647
00:35:42,064 --> 00:35:46,344
Speaker 4: a journalist then tell everything about mk Ultra. The stakes

648
00:35:46,384 --> 00:35:49,863
Speaker 4: are too high. The family is certainly convinced that it

649
00:35:50,024 --> 00:35:51,703
Speaker 4: was a murder. There's a lot of evidence for that,

650
00:35:51,743 --> 00:35:54,343
Speaker 4: but as I said, the evidence is not conclusive. So

651
00:35:56,504 --> 00:35:59,223
Speaker 4: although the family does not like to hear it described

652
00:35:59,223 --> 00:36:01,903
Speaker 4: as the great Mystery of mkult because they don't think

653
00:36:01,944 --> 00:36:04,024
Speaker 4: it is a mystery, I think for the rest of

654
00:36:04,104 --> 00:36:05,944
Speaker 4: us it looks that way. It's certainly one of the

655
00:36:06,544 --> 00:36:11,623
Speaker 4: unresolved questions. You know, as do you guys know, CIA,

656
00:36:11,783 --> 00:36:15,464
Speaker 4: despite a lot of conspiracy theories, doesn't shoot its own agents.

657
00:36:15,743 --> 00:36:18,464
Speaker 4: That's just that's a fantasy. I don't kill their own people.

658
00:36:18,663 --> 00:36:21,704
Speaker 4: Could there have ever been a time when they felt

659
00:36:21,703 --> 00:36:24,784
Speaker 4: the situation was so urgent they had to make an exception,

660
00:36:25,064 --> 00:36:27,303
Speaker 4: I don't know, but if there ever was one, this

661
00:36:27,344 --> 00:36:30,343
Speaker 4: would seem me to be a good moment to do it.

662
00:36:30,344 --> 00:36:31,984
Speaker 3: Well, Steven, you probably know this. There is a lot

663
00:36:31,984 --> 00:36:33,143
Speaker 3: of character assassination.

664
00:36:33,623 --> 00:36:38,383
Speaker 4: See. You know, when I used to live in Nicaragua

665
00:36:38,424 --> 00:36:40,584
Speaker 4: and we were afraid that people we get arrested and

666
00:36:40,663 --> 00:36:43,623
Speaker 4: tortured by the contras. One of my colleagues used to say,

667
00:36:43,663 --> 00:36:46,064
Speaker 4: and they talk a lot about psychological torture. Give me

668
00:36:46,143 --> 00:36:48,663
Speaker 4: that I can handle the psychological torture. Just get the

669
00:36:48,703 --> 00:36:49,664
Speaker 4: physical stuff, please.

670
00:36:50,263 --> 00:36:53,303
Speaker 3: There's so many like strange byways, and one reason is

671
00:36:53,344 --> 00:36:56,584
Speaker 3: so compelling. Yes, it's the story of like maybe good

672
00:36:56,663 --> 00:36:59,904
Speaker 3: intentions gone wrong charitably, but certainly it became dark and

673
00:36:59,984 --> 00:37:03,183
Speaker 3: even evil. But we're talking about Sidney Gottlieb, and like,

674
00:37:03,504 --> 00:37:05,584
Speaker 3: in people's eyes, they might be thinking like this not

675
00:37:05,783 --> 00:37:07,143
Speaker 3: doctor Mengele is.

676
00:37:07,384 --> 00:37:09,343
Speaker 4: He was like he was like I think of him

677
00:37:09,344 --> 00:37:11,864
Speaker 4: like Jerry Garcia. He was like a hippie. He was

678
00:37:11,904 --> 00:37:12,344
Speaker 4: a hippie.

679
00:37:12,344 --> 00:37:14,784
Speaker 3: He would get up in milk his goats on his farm,

680
00:37:14,904 --> 00:37:18,064
Speaker 3: he had an you know, he lived organically.

681
00:37:18,464 --> 00:37:19,944
Speaker 4: So there's the deeds he's doing.

682
00:37:20,263 --> 00:37:23,143
Speaker 3: But then there's this like guy who like is nothing

683
00:37:23,304 --> 00:37:26,703
Speaker 3: like the seems to be nothing like the deeds that

684
00:37:26,743 --> 00:37:27,464
Speaker 3: he's doing.

685
00:37:27,584 --> 00:37:30,304
Speaker 4: Right, This is actually one of the most fascinating parts

686
00:37:30,344 --> 00:37:33,183
Speaker 4: of the book. And when you're writing a biography, you're

687
00:37:33,223 --> 00:37:35,504
Speaker 4: really living with the person you're writing about. And to

688
00:37:35,584 --> 00:37:38,183
Speaker 4: be living with Gottlieb and all those terrible things that

689
00:37:38,223 --> 00:37:40,663
Speaker 4: he did in my Officer just Ary Small I was

690
00:37:40,984 --> 00:37:46,904
Speaker 4: quite intense. But I do think that a character of Gottlieb.

691
00:37:47,024 --> 00:37:49,943
Speaker 4: Who he was as a person makes this story all

692
00:37:49,984 --> 00:37:53,743
Speaker 4: the more interesting because, as you said, he had a

693
00:37:53,783 --> 00:37:56,944
Speaker 4: private life which was the opposite of what you would expect.

694
00:37:57,143 --> 00:38:01,584
Speaker 4: So he lived, unlike probably any civil servant in Washington

695
00:38:01,623 --> 00:38:04,863
Speaker 4: in the early nineteen fifties, in a cabin out at

696
00:38:04,864 --> 00:38:07,343
Speaker 4: the end of a long dirt road, which I went

697
00:38:07,384 --> 00:38:09,703
Speaker 4: to visit. I could hardly even find it even now. Oh,

698
00:38:10,024 --> 00:38:13,184
Speaker 4: it was like a proto eco house in the times

699
00:38:13,183 --> 00:38:16,104
Speaker 4: when nobody ever thought of that. He even had primitive

700
00:38:16,143 --> 00:38:18,984
Speaker 4: solar panels. He didn't have running water. He didn't think

701
00:38:18,984 --> 00:38:23,184
Speaker 4: that was a good idea. Grew his own vegetables, He meditated,

702
00:38:23,864 --> 00:38:27,423
Speaker 4: he wrote poetry, studied Zen Buddhism, and he was very

703
00:38:27,424 --> 00:38:30,263
Speaker 4: active in his community. He was quite beloved. Even when

704
00:38:30,304 --> 00:38:32,584
Speaker 4: he retired, he was in community theater and he was

705
00:38:32,584 --> 00:38:37,703
Speaker 4: always involved in local charities. And after he retired, he

706
00:38:37,743 --> 00:38:39,743
Speaker 4: and his wife went off to India to work in

707
00:38:39,783 --> 00:38:43,904
Speaker 4: a hospital to help for people who were suffering from leprosy.

708
00:38:44,304 --> 00:38:47,904
Speaker 4: So how do you put these two lives together? Now?

709
00:38:48,064 --> 00:38:50,104
Speaker 4: I don't have the answer to this. I think that

710
00:38:50,223 --> 00:38:52,464
Speaker 4: I would have loved to ask his kids. I'd still

711
00:38:52,504 --> 00:38:54,303
Speaker 4: like to ask his living kids? How did he do that?

712
00:38:54,623 --> 00:38:57,703
Speaker 4: But I can speculate. Sometimes it seems to me that

713
00:38:58,384 --> 00:39:02,264
Speaker 4: maybe when he was driving home over the bridge leaving Washington,

714
00:39:02,263 --> 00:39:04,944
Speaker 4: on his way out to his cabin, would be like

715
00:39:05,263 --> 00:39:09,024
Speaker 4: a snake that leaves the skin behind, and he became

716
00:39:09,064 --> 00:39:13,104
Speaker 4: a different person, and then he would morph into his lovely,

717
00:39:13,424 --> 00:39:18,104
Speaker 4: loving proto Hitie identity, and then in the morning maybe

718
00:39:18,143 --> 00:39:22,544
Speaker 4: he would put that skin back on again. How does

719
00:39:22,544 --> 00:39:26,864
Speaker 4: he How could you possibly justify having the compassionate, loving

720
00:39:26,944 --> 00:39:29,463
Speaker 4: view of life that he professed and do the things

721
00:39:29,464 --> 00:39:31,623
Speaker 4: that he did. Well, of course I had to reflect

722
00:39:31,663 --> 00:39:35,024
Speaker 4: on this, and I don't have a real answer. I'll

723
00:39:35,064 --> 00:39:37,783
Speaker 4: tell you the answer that I came up with the

724
00:39:37,824 --> 00:39:42,223
Speaker 4: best I could do. So Godly might have been thinking this.

725
00:39:42,743 --> 00:39:45,904
Speaker 4: I live a very unusual life. I don't live like

726
00:39:46,464 --> 00:39:49,104
Speaker 4: normal people want to live. I have my own idea.

727
00:39:49,143 --> 00:39:52,824
Speaker 4: I'm off on my own trip, and thanks to being

728
00:39:52,904 --> 00:39:56,263
Speaker 4: in America, living in a free country, I can do

729
00:39:56,304 --> 00:39:59,623
Speaker 4: this and anybody can do it. Anybody can live the

730
00:39:59,663 --> 00:40:06,024
Speaker 4: way they want. Now we're facing a huge faithful international conflict.

731
00:40:06,304 --> 00:40:09,944
Speaker 4: If the other side wins, it will become impossible for

732
00:40:10,024 --> 00:40:13,783
Speaker 4: anyone to live like I do. Everybody will be subjected

733
00:40:13,824 --> 00:40:18,783
Speaker 4: to a totalitarian rule. So I'm fighting to protect the

734
00:40:18,864 --> 00:40:22,463
Speaker 4: right of Americans and people in free countries to make

735
00:40:22,504 --> 00:40:26,183
Speaker 4: their own decisions about their lives. And again, it's a

736
00:40:26,263 --> 00:40:28,784
Speaker 4: shame that some people have to be tortured and killed,

737
00:40:29,024 --> 00:40:33,504
Speaker 4: But that goal of assuring that people could go on

738
00:40:33,743 --> 00:40:37,423
Speaker 4: living free lives like I do is so big that

739
00:40:38,584 --> 00:40:41,743
Speaker 4: the life's lost would be considered minor. So I think

740
00:40:42,143 --> 00:40:45,624
Speaker 4: commitment to a great cause is one of the most

741
00:40:45,824 --> 00:40:50,423
Speaker 4: powerful reasons to commit immoral acts, and patriotism is one

742
00:40:50,464 --> 00:40:53,343
Speaker 4: of the greatest and noblest causes of law. So you

743
00:40:53,384 --> 00:40:55,703
Speaker 4: can get caught up in that, and I think it's

744
00:40:55,703 --> 00:40:59,143
Speaker 4: an example of how you can begin to feel that

745
00:40:59,344 --> 00:41:03,263
Speaker 4: something is so important that you lose your balance in

746
00:41:03,344 --> 00:41:14,504
Speaker 4: trying to awagh the means against the end.

747
00:41:22,104 --> 00:41:24,544
Speaker 2: When I read your book, you want god Leeve to

748
00:41:24,584 --> 00:41:27,024
Speaker 2: be the villain to beat this horrible person, and you

749
00:41:27,183 --> 00:41:30,104
Speaker 2: describe him very well. But when I read it, one

750
00:41:30,104 --> 00:41:31,743
Speaker 2: of the things I come up with is that if

751
00:41:31,783 --> 00:41:34,184
Speaker 2: there's a villain, it's almost more like Dulles or Helms.

752
00:41:34,183 --> 00:41:37,343
Speaker 2: Are these guys who were supporting this and pushing him

753
00:41:37,344 --> 00:41:41,183
Speaker 2: on and then to got Lead's credit. This went on

754
00:41:41,223 --> 00:41:44,184
Speaker 2: from one went fifty three to sixty three. He closed

755
00:41:44,223 --> 00:41:46,623
Speaker 2: on the program. He said, yeah, we can destroy minds,

756
00:41:46,663 --> 00:41:49,424
Speaker 2: but we can't rebuild them. We need to close this down.

757
00:41:49,824 --> 00:41:54,143
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until the Church Committee stuff came out

758
00:41:54,544 --> 00:41:56,743
Speaker 2: and they asked him like, why did he do this,

759
00:41:56,783 --> 00:41:59,064
Speaker 2: and he said, he agreed he went too far, but

760
00:41:59,143 --> 00:42:01,104
Speaker 2: he felt he had the security of the United States

761
00:42:01,104 --> 00:42:03,064
Speaker 2: in his hands. He believed they were fighting a war.

762
00:42:03,344 --> 00:42:07,183
Speaker 2: So villain Wise Helms and those guys when the program

763
00:42:07,304 --> 00:42:11,343
Speaker 2: closed insisted it thing be destroyed. And I don't know

764
00:42:11,344 --> 00:42:14,183
Speaker 2: if he would have done that, but certainly his leaders

765
00:42:14,183 --> 00:42:14,544
Speaker 2: thought that.

766
00:42:14,944 --> 00:42:17,944
Speaker 4: It's true that when he was called to testify in secret,

767
00:42:18,223 --> 00:42:21,183
Speaker 4: we know that in front of a Senate committee, we

768
00:42:21,263 --> 00:42:24,544
Speaker 4: know that he complained about some of the documents that

769
00:42:24,584 --> 00:42:27,383
Speaker 4: had been released because there were like four or five

770
00:42:27,424 --> 00:42:30,903
Speaker 4: signatures on them and they're all blacked out except for him,

771
00:42:31,183 --> 00:42:34,064
Speaker 4: except for him. So if you believed that the whole

772
00:42:34,064 --> 00:42:37,544
Speaker 4: project was ultimately to wlame it all on him, that

773
00:42:37,663 --> 00:42:39,424
Speaker 4: was pretty good evidence of it.

774
00:42:39,424 --> 00:42:42,903
Speaker 3: It's hard to imagine, and for younger listeners, it's hard

775
00:42:42,904 --> 00:42:45,824
Speaker 3: to imagine how we all felt just after nine to eleven,

776
00:42:45,944 --> 00:42:47,703
Speaker 3: right what we were willing to do because of the

777
00:42:47,703 --> 00:42:50,504
Speaker 3: fear and paranoia. I think in the early fifties there

778
00:42:50,584 --> 00:42:52,504
Speaker 3: was a sense of that it was even more contense,

779
00:42:53,024 --> 00:42:57,024
Speaker 3: right and riffing on what John said, I was surprised,

780
00:42:57,344 --> 00:43:00,223
Speaker 3: not just that like the agency senior leadership, people who

781
00:43:00,263 --> 00:43:03,223
Speaker 3: really should have known better, but also American institution. So

782
00:43:03,263 --> 00:43:05,024
Speaker 3: there was I don't remember the gentleman's name, but there

783
00:43:05,024 --> 00:43:08,303
Speaker 3: was a tennis player who died because Sydney Gottlieb gave

784
00:43:08,824 --> 00:43:11,823
Speaker 3: the guys like characters, was willing to do medical experiments

785
00:43:11,944 --> 00:43:14,743
Speaker 3: on his own patient. And then they had I don't know,

786
00:43:14,783 --> 00:43:17,064
Speaker 3: i'll throws from university names, but I think like Harvard

787
00:43:17,143 --> 00:43:22,704
Speaker 3: and MIT hospitals were all willing to do these experiments,

788
00:43:23,304 --> 00:43:25,544
Speaker 3: and one because they didn't probably understand what they were

789
00:43:25,663 --> 00:43:28,343
Speaker 3: completely what they were dealing with, but also too there

790
00:43:28,384 --> 00:43:30,784
Speaker 3: was a sense of, oh my god, the paranoia where

791
00:43:30,904 --> 00:43:33,624
Speaker 3: if we don't do this, the commis could take over.

792
00:43:33,864 --> 00:43:36,984
Speaker 4: I think there was a sense in those medical institutions

793
00:43:37,024 --> 00:43:39,064
Speaker 4: that this is a brave new world. Hey, maybe we're

794
00:43:39,304 --> 00:43:42,424
Speaker 4: experimenting and finding out something that could ultimately be beneficial

795
00:43:42,504 --> 00:43:46,064
Speaker 4: for humanity. However, as he pointed out, Gottlieb at the

796
00:43:46,263 --> 00:43:49,703
Speaker 4: end finally conceded that there is no such thing as

797
00:43:49,703 --> 00:43:52,863
Speaker 4: mind control. Now, some psychologists had been telling him this

798
00:43:52,984 --> 00:43:55,703
Speaker 4: all along, but he didn't want to believe it. Finally,

799
00:43:55,783 --> 00:43:59,024
Speaker 4: in the end he agreed. And then when he was

800
00:43:59,024 --> 00:44:01,744
Speaker 4: on his way out of the CIA in nineteen seventy

801
00:44:01,783 --> 00:44:06,504
Speaker 4: four along with Richard Helms, who was being replaced as DCI,

802
00:44:06,904 --> 00:44:09,984
Speaker 4: the two of them agreed that we should just destroy

803
00:44:10,143 --> 00:44:13,704
Speaker 4: all the records of mk Ultra. Now that's a federal crime,

804
00:44:15,104 --> 00:44:18,823
Speaker 4: destruction of federal property. However, it's a federal crime much

805
00:44:18,904 --> 00:44:23,064
Speaker 4: lesser than the crimes that probably were described in those files.

806
00:44:23,304 --> 00:44:28,623
Speaker 4: So Gottlieb ordered the CIA records Depository to destroy those files,

807
00:44:28,623 --> 00:44:31,343
Speaker 4: and the person in charge of the depository refused to

808
00:44:31,384 --> 00:44:34,104
Speaker 4: do it, and Gottlieb had to drive out there and

809
00:44:34,223 --> 00:44:37,743
Speaker 4: tell them, you got to take the seven cases of

810
00:44:37,904 --> 00:44:40,663
Speaker 4: mk ultra documents and destroy them, and he had no

811
00:44:40,743 --> 00:44:43,263
Speaker 4: choice since he was being ordered by higher authority. And

812
00:44:43,344 --> 00:44:48,024
Speaker 4: the archivist actually writes in his diary that these documents

813
00:44:48,064 --> 00:44:53,024
Speaker 4: were destroyed quote over my stated objection. So actually it worked,

814
00:44:53,064 --> 00:44:57,143
Speaker 4: though if they hadn't destroyed those who knows, those were

815
00:44:57,183 --> 00:45:00,783
Speaker 4: probably the protocols of all the experiments and you'd find

816
00:45:00,824 --> 00:45:03,383
Speaker 4: out who were the victims, how did they die, what

817
00:45:03,504 --> 00:45:08,544
Speaker 4: kinds of experiments. So even though I think my book

818
00:45:08,584 --> 00:45:13,144
Speaker 4: Poisoner in Chief is the most exhaustive account of mk Ultra,

819
00:45:13,584 --> 00:45:18,064
Speaker 4: I'm painfully aware that I have only uncovered a small

820
00:45:18,304 --> 00:45:22,983
Speaker 4: fraction of what mk ultra was and what Sidney Gottli did.

821
00:45:23,104 --> 00:45:23,424
Speaker 4: Could you?

822
00:45:23,864 --> 00:45:27,104
Speaker 3: So there's so many like fascinating people in this But

823
00:45:27,183 --> 00:45:29,743
Speaker 3: if you could talk to like what I found to be,

824
00:45:30,064 --> 00:45:31,983
Speaker 3: if there is a real bad guy that you could

825
00:45:32,024 --> 00:45:35,863
Speaker 3: hate and love to hate, it would be George Hunter White. Right,

826
00:45:36,024 --> 00:45:38,663
Speaker 3: this is a guy I don't even know where to start, right,

827
00:45:38,783 --> 00:45:40,663
Speaker 3: but this is a guy you start with a high

828
00:45:40,703 --> 00:45:43,304
Speaker 3: heel fetish that he was a voy or, a drug addict,

829
00:45:43,344 --> 00:45:48,504
Speaker 3: a dea agent, a purviewer of LSD. If you could

830
00:45:48,544 --> 00:45:50,823
Speaker 3: just for funzies, let's talk about it.

831
00:45:50,904 --> 00:45:51,624
Speaker 2: That sounds fun.

832
00:45:52,703 --> 00:45:57,264
Speaker 3: Just who has parakeets? Who Sidley got? Whose wife Sidley

833
00:45:57,263 --> 00:45:58,984
Speaker 3: Gottley may have been not have been hitting. So I

834
00:45:59,024 --> 00:46:01,024
Speaker 3: didn't even want to start with this, but maybe like

835
00:46:01,544 --> 00:46:04,663
Speaker 3: New York and San Francisco, like yeah, I mean, I'm

836
00:46:04,944 --> 00:46:07,823
Speaker 3: proud of been in the CAA, but flugh mk Ultra

837
00:46:07,864 --> 00:46:10,343
Speaker 3: they were running a whorehouse. Just a thought is if

838
00:46:10,344 --> 00:46:14,024
Speaker 3: you know the truth of it, all the subsequent conspiracy

839
00:46:14,064 --> 00:46:16,783
Speaker 3: theories that come out of edka Ault which are not true.

840
00:46:18,024 --> 00:46:21,343
Speaker 4: Godly decided that one of the ways he wanted to

841
00:46:21,424 --> 00:46:25,983
Speaker 4: test not just LSD, but various drug combinations would be

842
00:46:26,384 --> 00:46:30,344
Speaker 4: to try to administer them to men after they'd had sex.

843
00:46:30,663 --> 00:46:32,743
Speaker 4: So in order to do this, he set up a

844
00:46:32,783 --> 00:46:37,223
Speaker 4: bordello in San Francisco, and he hired a guy, this

845
00:46:37,464 --> 00:46:40,784
Speaker 4: George Hunter White, who was this very short, fat bald

846
00:46:41,183 --> 00:46:45,863
Speaker 4: head of the US Drug Agency in San Francisco. So

847
00:46:45,944 --> 00:46:48,143
Speaker 4: this guy was not only a drug agent, but he

848
00:46:48,263 --> 00:46:50,903
Speaker 4: was a drug heavy drug user. He tried every drug,

849
00:46:50,944 --> 00:46:53,743
Speaker 4: but he ever arrested anybody for using. He was one

850
00:46:53,743 --> 00:46:56,743
Speaker 4: of these wild, out of control cops. So he was

851
00:46:56,783 --> 00:47:01,424
Speaker 4: a perfect fit for mk Ultra. Godib hired him to

852
00:47:01,623 --> 00:47:05,863
Speaker 4: set up what amounted to a national security forehouse. And he,

853
00:47:05,984 --> 00:47:07,864
Speaker 4: of course he knew all the girls because he was

854
00:47:07,944 --> 00:47:10,263
Speaker 4: arresting them all the time and then letting go and

855
00:47:10,424 --> 00:47:14,423
Speaker 4: taking advantage of their services. Sure enough, there was this

856
00:47:14,504 --> 00:47:18,183
Speaker 4: apartment and it was decorated with old kind of French

857
00:47:18,623 --> 00:47:23,263
Speaker 4: decorations to LuSE tret paintings and black lace curtains, and

858
00:47:23,703 --> 00:47:27,783
Speaker 4: girls would be hired to bring men back there. Then

859
00:47:27,824 --> 00:47:29,504
Speaker 4: they would give the guy a drink, and in that

860
00:47:29,584 --> 00:47:32,664
Speaker 4: drink would be either LSD or whatever combination of drugs.

861
00:47:32,703 --> 00:47:36,943
Speaker 4: Sydney Gottlieb wanted to try that week, and watching through

862
00:47:36,984 --> 00:47:40,703
Speaker 4: a one way mirror would be this obese George Hunter

863
00:47:40,904 --> 00:47:46,104
Speaker 4: White who had no slightest training in psychology, sexology, nothing

864
00:47:46,143 --> 00:47:48,863
Speaker 4: to do with anything scientific. He was sitting on He's

865
00:47:48,864 --> 00:47:51,183
Speaker 4: sitting on a toilet, He's sitting on his portable toilet,

866
00:47:51,384 --> 00:47:55,864
Speaker 4: and he's drinking cocktails out of a picture. Watching these scenes,

867
00:47:56,504 --> 00:48:00,024
Speaker 4: and as I began to realize that the destroyed a

868
00:48:00,064 --> 00:48:02,424
Speaker 4: lot of lives, But of course people couldn't complain. That

869
00:48:02,544 --> 00:48:04,504
Speaker 4: was the idea of the men didn't want to complain

870
00:48:04,544 --> 00:48:07,624
Speaker 4: because they'd have to explain where they were. I really

871
00:48:07,623 --> 00:48:11,743
Speaker 4: began to wonder, since there was no science involved at all,

872
00:48:12,024 --> 00:48:15,623
Speaker 4: what did Gottlieb intend to do? Why did he do this?

873
00:48:15,743 --> 00:48:18,423
Speaker 4: I could understand it in a certain way. He came

874
00:48:18,504 --> 00:48:21,343
Speaker 4: up with this fantastic idea that gee, men do talk

875
00:48:21,424 --> 00:48:24,024
Speaker 4: more freely after sex. Yeah, I didn't need LST to

876
00:48:24,223 --> 00:48:27,263
Speaker 4: learn that, But why do this only while I was

877
00:48:27,304 --> 00:48:31,623
Speaker 4: writing this book, I came across something that maybe explains it.

878
00:48:31,864 --> 00:48:34,303
Speaker 4: So George hunter White had a deputy. The two of

879
00:48:34,344 --> 00:48:38,263
Speaker 4: them worked together, and although George hunter White died soon afterwards,

880
00:48:38,263 --> 00:48:41,104
Speaker 4: the deputy lived on to the point where when M.

881
00:48:41,183 --> 00:48:45,143
Speaker 4: K Ultra was revealed and there were court cases, he

882
00:48:45,223 --> 00:48:48,064
Speaker 4: actually gave a couple of depositions. And I went out

883
00:48:48,104 --> 00:48:53,064
Speaker 4: to Long Island and found the very elderly lawyer who

884
00:48:53,104 --> 00:48:56,024
Speaker 4: had been involved in one of these lawsuits, and he said,

885
00:48:56,064 --> 00:48:59,264
Speaker 4: you know, I do have some boxes full of depositions

886
00:48:59,304 --> 00:49:01,864
Speaker 4: from decades ago, if you want to go look at them.

887
00:49:01,904 --> 00:49:05,143
Speaker 4: In there, I found a deposition by this guy who

888
00:49:05,223 --> 00:49:08,904
Speaker 4: was the number two guy running the whoreorhouse in San Francisco.

889
00:49:09,663 --> 00:49:12,743
Speaker 4: He said, every time Sidney came out to look at

890
00:49:12,743 --> 00:49:17,584
Speaker 4: the project, they called an operation Midnight Climax. I always brought.

891
00:49:17,663 --> 00:49:19,743
Speaker 4: He always wanted a girl. As soon as he showed up.

892
00:49:19,783 --> 00:49:22,224
Speaker 4: He wanted a girl, and I always supplied him with girls.

893
00:49:22,464 --> 00:49:24,903
Speaker 4: And none of them ever asked for any money. They

894
00:49:24,904 --> 00:49:27,704
Speaker 4: all did it as a favorite to me. So Sidney

895
00:49:27,743 --> 00:49:29,823
Speaker 4: Gottlieb is now in his late forties. He's got his

896
00:49:29,904 --> 00:49:32,743
Speaker 4: hot wife and kids at home, and he's traveling a

897
00:49:32,743 --> 00:49:35,143
Speaker 4: lot while he's out in the Philippines and Germany torturing

898
00:49:35,183 --> 00:49:38,383
Speaker 4: people's to death. But baby, he also felt that he

899
00:49:38,424 --> 00:49:40,904
Speaker 4: could do this as a perk of his job, that

900
00:49:41,064 --> 00:49:43,303
Speaker 4: this would be a way for him to under the

901
00:49:43,344 --> 00:49:47,584
Speaker 4: cover of official CIA business. He would get himself a

902
00:49:47,663 --> 00:49:49,663
Speaker 4: chance to go out to San Francisco every couple of

903
00:49:49,703 --> 00:49:52,663
Speaker 4: weeks and have a good time. So he did a

904
00:49:52,703 --> 00:49:54,904
Speaker 4: lot of crazy things out there. I have a wonderful

905
00:49:54,944 --> 00:49:58,104
Speaker 4: story in the book about George Hunter White traveling with

906
00:49:58,223 --> 00:50:02,944
Speaker 4: him and they stop in front of a giant tree

907
00:50:03,424 --> 00:50:07,223
Speaker 4: and Gottlieb takes out a gun, a kind of a

908
00:50:07,263 --> 00:50:10,623
Speaker 4: pistol that shoots out a needle, and he shoots a

909
00:50:10,663 --> 00:50:13,024
Speaker 4: needle into the tree, and he tells the guy next

910
00:50:13,064 --> 00:50:14,823
Speaker 4: to him come back in a couple of days and

911
00:50:14,984 --> 00:50:16,903
Speaker 4: take a look. And the guy went back and all

912
00:50:16,944 --> 00:50:19,064
Speaker 4: the leaves had fallen off the tree. It was dead.

913
00:50:19,424 --> 00:50:22,024
Speaker 4: So he went out to San Francisco to show off

914
00:50:22,024 --> 00:50:24,984
Speaker 4: his little toys. But if you're looking for a reason

915
00:50:25,143 --> 00:50:27,383
Speaker 4: for why would you do a project that didn't really

916
00:50:27,424 --> 00:50:31,344
Speaker 4: seem to have any scientific basis, who knows.

917
00:50:31,984 --> 00:50:33,864
Speaker 2: I have to say it's a very different CIA that

918
00:50:33,984 --> 00:50:34,703
Speaker 2: Jerry and I grew.

919
00:50:35,824 --> 00:50:38,623
Speaker 4: I want to say that even then the CIA in

920
00:50:38,663 --> 00:50:41,064
Speaker 4: a lot of ways was probably like the CIA you knew,

921
00:50:41,104 --> 00:50:43,944
Speaker 4: but this was an exception. This was the whole self

922
00:50:43,984 --> 00:50:48,423
Speaker 4: controlled little piece that was apart from all any kind

923
00:50:48,464 --> 00:50:52,663
Speaker 4: of ethical or moral or legal guidelines that were applied

924
00:50:52,703 --> 00:50:55,183
Speaker 4: to Even at that time most CIA office.

925
00:50:54,944 --> 00:50:57,384
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were saving the world. So one of the

926
00:50:57,424 --> 00:51:00,304
Speaker 2: things that's said and odd inness is that this program,

927
00:51:00,304 --> 00:51:03,024
Speaker 2: which is really hot through the fifties into the early sixties,

928
00:51:03,064 --> 00:51:05,703
Speaker 2: and then when it shuts down, when they realize it's

929
00:51:05,743 --> 00:51:08,183
Speaker 2: a failure, they can't do it. That's almost the time

930
00:51:08,304 --> 00:51:11,183
Speaker 2: in public opinion when people get really interested in this

931
00:51:11,223 --> 00:51:14,303
Speaker 2: and they start to think maturia candidate. So all of

932
00:51:14,344 --> 00:51:17,464
Speaker 2: a sudden, the public is taken with this idea, almost

933
00:51:17,504 --> 00:51:19,984
Speaker 2: at the exact same time the CIA has said the

934
00:51:20,024 --> 00:51:20,463
Speaker 2: same work.

935
00:51:20,824 --> 00:51:23,544
Speaker 4: They're exactly right, And there's actually people We have a

936
00:51:23,544 --> 00:51:26,584
Speaker 4: few notes from people in the CIA commenting on this

937
00:51:26,944 --> 00:51:28,943
Speaker 4: that it took, of course a long time for these

938
00:51:28,984 --> 00:51:31,463
Speaker 4: ideas to penetrate into the public, and by the time

939
00:51:31,504 --> 00:51:33,783
Speaker 4: they started to penetrate, the CIA was alreadyhead of them

940
00:51:33,824 --> 00:51:36,744
Speaker 4: and telling them this was all nonsense. But mk Ultra,

941
00:51:36,824 --> 00:51:39,183
Speaker 4: as you know better than I, has become really a

942
00:51:39,263 --> 00:51:41,863
Speaker 4: kind of a part of our culture. I even I

943
00:51:41,904 --> 00:51:44,464
Speaker 4: was looking for ways that the name has been used,

944
00:51:44,864 --> 00:51:49,184
Speaker 4: and I even found out that in Amsterdam every year

945
00:51:49,424 --> 00:51:53,904
Speaker 4: they have the Cannabis Cup for the best marijuana strain

946
00:51:54,024 --> 00:51:57,104
Speaker 4: in the world, and one year it was the strain

947
00:51:57,183 --> 00:52:00,384
Speaker 4: that one was called mk ultra. So it shows you

948
00:52:00,464 --> 00:52:05,304
Speaker 4: how that name has now entered a popular popular culture,

949
00:52:05,663 --> 00:52:08,024
Speaker 4: even among people who don't know really what it was.

950
00:52:08,623 --> 00:52:13,263
Speaker 4: It's kind of the a paradigm for saying, hell, crazy,

951
00:52:13,743 --> 00:52:17,584
Speaker 4: out of control, mad scientists. And I'll tell you when

952
00:52:17,623 --> 00:52:21,104
Speaker 4: I was researching mk ultra, I always found that you're

953
00:52:21,143 --> 00:52:26,024
Speaker 4: only about two clicks away from the wildest conspiracy theories,

954
00:52:26,064 --> 00:52:29,744
Speaker 4: because mk ultra is really right on the border between

955
00:52:29,824 --> 00:52:32,383
Speaker 4: what really happened and what you can imagine. And if

956
00:52:32,384 --> 00:52:35,544
Speaker 4: people want to believe that secret government agencies are doing

957
00:52:35,623 --> 00:52:38,623
Speaker 4: terrible things that you wouldn't never believe, this is the

958
00:52:38,944 --> 00:52:41,823
Speaker 4: example that they use. And if they can say, well,

959
00:52:41,864 --> 00:52:43,544
Speaker 4: if it was going back in the fifties and it

960
00:52:43,584 --> 00:52:45,743
Speaker 4: was such a secret, who knows what might be going

961
00:52:45,783 --> 00:52:47,623
Speaker 4: on now. And if you want to guess what's going

962
00:52:47,663 --> 00:52:49,864
Speaker 4: on now, think of all the books, all the movies,

963
00:52:49,904 --> 00:52:52,424
Speaker 4: you can make out of that. But MK ultra.

964
00:52:52,743 --> 00:52:55,183
Speaker 3: Side deep dive into the human psyche at least an

965
00:52:55,183 --> 00:52:57,824
Speaker 3: attempt a failed attempt to do that. It was also

966
00:52:57,864 --> 00:53:00,663
Speaker 3: attempt to figure out what the truth is, because this

967
00:53:00,783 --> 00:53:03,263
Speaker 3: is something after nine to eleven with al Qaeda that

968
00:53:03,424 --> 00:53:05,783
Speaker 3: you John and I bumped into. So, if you've got

969
00:53:05,864 --> 00:53:08,584
Speaker 3: terrorists and you know that they're looking to kill Americans,

970
00:53:09,064 --> 00:53:11,143
Speaker 3: how do you get them to tell the truth? How

971
00:53:11,183 --> 00:53:13,944
Speaker 3: do we find out their plans and attentions? And initially

972
00:53:13,984 --> 00:53:17,584
Speaker 3: my understanding was, I think it was fd Arto choke

973
00:53:17,663 --> 00:53:21,024
Speaker 3: that the early version of mk ulture was really, how

974
00:53:21,064 --> 00:53:24,143
Speaker 3: do you get if we capture an enemy agent, how

975
00:53:24,183 --> 00:53:26,264
Speaker 3: do we get them to tell us the truth?

976
00:53:26,263 --> 00:53:27,143
Speaker 4: And how do we know?

977
00:53:27,783 --> 00:53:30,984
Speaker 3: And also how do we keep and conversely, how do

978
00:53:31,024 --> 00:53:35,303
Speaker 3: we keep our people from blanthering things? Because at least

979
00:53:35,344 --> 00:53:37,663
Speaker 3: initially my understanding was is, no, he's a tough guy,

980
00:53:38,064 --> 00:53:41,104
Speaker 3: he'll never talk. Right, we now know that basically you'll

981
00:53:41,143 --> 00:53:42,983
Speaker 3: talk or whatever. You may not tell the whole truth,

982
00:53:43,024 --> 00:53:45,263
Speaker 3: but you're certainly going to talk eventually, And so this

983
00:53:45,344 --> 00:53:47,223
Speaker 3: is also a search for truth. So where did they

984
00:53:47,223 --> 00:53:49,584
Speaker 3: ever get to on a truth serum or was this

985
00:53:49,783 --> 00:53:51,984
Speaker 3: exactly the same thing where their different streams of the

986
00:53:52,064 --> 00:53:55,223
Speaker 3: mk ulture mind control but also true serum, and then

987
00:53:55,304 --> 00:53:58,183
Speaker 3: one more was a bio weapon. My understanding is they

988
00:53:58,223 --> 00:54:01,024
Speaker 3: were looking as if they could like get the invading

989
00:54:01,104 --> 00:54:04,904
Speaker 3: Soviet troops all high. I mean, there were different elements

990
00:54:04,944 --> 00:54:07,744
Speaker 3: of it that sort of make it a little more understandable,

991
00:54:07,783 --> 00:54:10,143
Speaker 3: But it wasn't always mind control. So if one, if

992
00:54:10,143 --> 00:54:11,623
Speaker 3: you go into some of the elements that they were

993
00:54:11,623 --> 00:54:14,143
Speaker 3: at least said they were attempting to achieve.

994
00:54:14,064 --> 00:54:18,223
Speaker 4: You're right that the origins of mk Ultra before Gottlieb

995
00:54:18,263 --> 00:54:21,264
Speaker 4: came on board had to do with finding a truth serum,

996
00:54:21,504 --> 00:54:24,904
Speaker 4: how do you get people to talk? And actually Gottlieb

997
00:54:24,944 --> 00:54:27,263
Speaker 4: had the feeling that it could be LSD, and only

998
00:54:27,304 --> 00:54:30,824
Speaker 4: after much experimenting did he write a memo saying LSD's

999
00:54:30,864 --> 00:54:33,544
Speaker 4: too unpredictable. It might make some people talk, it might

1000
00:54:33,584 --> 00:54:36,143
Speaker 4: make some other people lie, make some people shut up.

1001
00:54:36,183 --> 00:54:38,343
Speaker 4: You don't know what it's gonna do. But one of

1002
00:54:38,384 --> 00:54:42,384
Speaker 4: the early versions of mk Ultra before it became mk Ultra,

1003
00:54:42,944 --> 00:54:46,104
Speaker 4: was called Operation Bluebird. And the reason they came up

1004
00:54:46,104 --> 00:54:48,944
Speaker 4: with that name is it was a project to find

1005
00:54:48,944 --> 00:54:52,344
Speaker 4: a way to get prisoners to sing like a bird.

1006
00:54:52,824 --> 00:54:57,584
Speaker 4: Truth theoreum was the beginning, was the root of mk Ultra.

1007
00:54:57,904 --> 00:55:02,423
Speaker 4: As for bioweapons, it's true that there were experiments carried out.

1008
00:55:02,623 --> 00:55:06,784
Speaker 4: You can actually see videos of soldiers on American basis

1009
00:55:06,824 --> 00:55:09,544
Speaker 4: who's been given LSD and you see them kind of

1010
00:55:09,663 --> 00:55:12,663
Speaker 4: dancing around and throwing their weapons down. It's quite a

1011
00:55:12,703 --> 00:55:17,383
Speaker 4: thing to see. However, those experiments were carried out outside

1012
00:55:17,743 --> 00:55:21,824
Speaker 4: of mk Ultra, including in the military, and I tried

1013
00:55:21,864 --> 00:55:24,663
Speaker 4: in my book not to focus on everything that was

1014
00:55:24,703 --> 00:55:28,144
Speaker 4: done with drugs in the American government, but to limit

1015
00:55:28,223 --> 00:55:31,984
Speaker 4: myself to mk ULTRA. So I'm not into the bio weapons,

1016
00:55:32,223 --> 00:55:36,343
Speaker 4: but I definitely did get into the evolution of the

1017
00:55:36,384 --> 00:55:39,423
Speaker 4: projects from Artichoke and the Bluebird at the beginning through

1018
00:55:39,504 --> 00:55:42,544
Speaker 4: mk ULTRA. And I'll tell you a little funny footnote

1019
00:55:42,584 --> 00:55:45,223
Speaker 4: to that. I found out that a couple of the

1020
00:55:45,304 --> 00:55:49,904
Speaker 4: people who were involved in that project, years later, after

1021
00:55:49,984 --> 00:55:52,663
Speaker 4: they retired and went back to live in Northern Virginia,

1022
00:55:53,104 --> 00:55:58,344
Speaker 4: joined a society for the protection of bluebirds, and I

1023
00:55:58,384 --> 00:56:01,263
Speaker 4: thought to myself, that cannot be a coincidence. They're not

1024
00:56:01,384 --> 00:56:05,663
Speaker 4: there for the protection of cardinals or sparrows or robins.

1025
00:56:05,944 --> 00:56:07,743
Speaker 4: Couldn't it be that maybe it was a little bit

1026
00:56:07,783 --> 00:56:11,303
Speaker 4: of a wink to history to say I started with bluebird,

1027
00:56:11,663 --> 00:56:13,823
Speaker 4: now I'm finishing my life, but another kind of a

1028
00:56:13,864 --> 00:56:14,584
Speaker 4: real bluebird.

1029
00:56:14,663 --> 00:56:17,344
Speaker 2: Well, if you think it's bad these tests Americans and

1030
00:56:17,424 --> 00:56:20,984
Speaker 2: CIA did on sometimes unwitting and other Americans. At the

1031
00:56:21,024 --> 00:56:24,104
Speaker 2: same time, the Russians are testing their nuclear weapons and

1032
00:56:24,143 --> 00:56:27,104
Speaker 2: how fallout was and they were actually dropping weapons over

1033
00:56:27,223 --> 00:56:30,423
Speaker 2: villages in their own country to see how it would

1034
00:56:30,464 --> 00:56:32,064
Speaker 2: go and how would get in the water, and then

1035
00:56:32,104 --> 00:56:35,544
Speaker 2: how people downstream could survive or not survive, how many

1036
00:56:35,584 --> 00:56:37,904
Speaker 2: would die. Like it was a crazy time.

1037
00:56:38,623 --> 00:56:41,584
Speaker 4: Victory or death on both sides, And once you get

1038
00:56:41,584 --> 00:56:47,143
Speaker 4: into that mindset, victory seems worthwhile achieving, regardless of the tactics.

1039
00:56:47,824 --> 00:56:50,544
Speaker 2: One quick thing is is, so Gottlieb was in charge

1040
00:56:50,584 --> 00:56:52,143
Speaker 2: of all this m faulture and the things we're doing,

1041
00:56:52,183 --> 00:56:54,823
Speaker 2: but he also was in charge of poisons for the CIA,

1042
00:56:54,904 --> 00:56:57,463
Speaker 2: because that's something obviously that probably still goes on. That's

1043
00:56:57,663 --> 00:56:59,904
Speaker 2: you'd use poison for specific so things.

1044
00:57:00,064 --> 00:57:02,743
Speaker 4: Gottley, in addition to running mk ulture, was the head

1045
00:57:02,743 --> 00:57:06,064
Speaker 4: of the chemical bridge of the CIA, So he was

1046
00:57:06,104 --> 00:57:09,504
Speaker 4: the guy that prepared all of the poisons that were

1047
00:57:09,703 --> 00:57:12,344
Speaker 4: supposed to use to be killed, to kill Fidel Castro,

1048
00:57:12,944 --> 00:57:15,863
Speaker 4: to kill the Patrisa Mumba, all of those agents who

1049
00:57:15,864 --> 00:57:18,864
Speaker 4: were sent out with what were called l pills, suicide pills.

1050
00:57:18,984 --> 00:57:21,664
Speaker 4: Where do you get those pills? Gottlieb made them. He

1051
00:57:21,704 --> 00:57:25,304
Speaker 4: probably knew more about poisons than any living human. But

1052
00:57:25,704 --> 00:57:29,544
Speaker 4: when Gottlieb was called ultimately to testify in the mid

1053
00:57:29,624 --> 00:57:32,624
Speaker 4: seventies in secret, all they wanted to ask him about

1054
00:57:33,024 --> 00:57:35,823
Speaker 4: was these assassination plots and his involvement in them. And

1055
00:57:35,864 --> 00:57:37,664
Speaker 4: what got me going in this book was it the

1056
00:57:37,664 --> 00:57:41,503
Speaker 4: realization that that was nothing, That was just the job

1057
00:57:41,544 --> 00:57:44,823
Speaker 4: of a pharmacist. If there hadn't been godly, somebody else

1058
00:57:44,904 --> 00:57:47,824
Speaker 4: could have made those pills. Mk Alter was different because

1059
00:57:47,824 --> 00:57:51,264
Speaker 4: it came completely out of his mind. That's why I

1060
00:57:51,304 --> 00:57:54,744
Speaker 4: think to understand him, it's not just the fact that

1061
00:57:54,784 --> 00:57:57,104
Speaker 4: he made those poisons, although that's why I call my

1062
00:57:57,104 --> 00:58:00,264
Speaker 4: book Poisoner in Chief, but it's also that he went

1063
00:58:00,384 --> 00:58:05,544
Speaker 4: way beyond that and created something without any supervision, without

1064
00:58:05,584 --> 00:58:07,904
Speaker 4: anyone else telling him what to do, and was allowed

1065
00:58:07,944 --> 00:58:11,384
Speaker 4: to do this, which I think take them far beyond

1066
00:58:11,904 --> 00:58:14,664
Speaker 4: anything that a normal chemist or pharmacist would do.

1067
00:58:14,984 --> 00:58:19,144
Speaker 3: So is John and I having spent thirty years each

1068
00:58:19,344 --> 00:58:21,864
Speaker 3: four or less in the agency. You know, it's also

1069
00:58:21,904 --> 00:58:25,984
Speaker 3: a bureaucracy, which means that we have budgets and we

1070
00:58:26,024 --> 00:58:28,544
Speaker 3: have to fill out monthly reports and we you know,

1071
00:58:28,664 --> 00:58:31,024
Speaker 3: all the rest of this. So my understanding was that

1072
00:58:31,104 --> 00:58:33,024
Speaker 3: I wonder if you could run with this just a bit.

1073
00:58:33,504 --> 00:58:36,343
Speaker 3: Is that while a lot of the files were maybe destroyed,

1074
00:58:36,544 --> 00:58:39,544
Speaker 3: the financial records is like like every you know, if

1075
00:58:39,584 --> 00:58:42,264
Speaker 3: he's going to buy George Hunter White a toilet he

1076
00:58:42,264 --> 00:58:44,864
Speaker 3: can sit on while watching men have sex with LSD,

1077
00:58:45,384 --> 00:58:47,464
Speaker 3: somebody's got to expense that, right, you know, and the

1078
00:58:47,544 --> 00:58:49,544
Speaker 3: booze and all the rest of it. And so with

1079
00:58:49,624 --> 00:58:53,704
Speaker 3: your research, what records did you have? And my understanding

1080
00:58:53,744 --> 00:58:55,424
Speaker 3: was there were a lot of them. Were the financial records?

1081
00:58:55,464 --> 00:58:59,424
Speaker 4: You're right? All the records of experiments were destroyed. However,

1082
00:58:59,744 --> 00:59:02,823
Speaker 4: later on it was discovered that there was a pile

1083
00:59:02,864 --> 00:59:07,224
Speaker 4: of financial records related to MK Ultra And that's exactly

1084
00:59:07,424 --> 00:59:10,264
Speaker 4: how we learn about some of these projects. Because you

1085
00:59:10,344 --> 00:59:14,224
Speaker 4: just mentioned George Hunter White's toilet, I literally have the document.

1086
00:59:14,464 --> 00:59:18,504
Speaker 4: We're a tell you, but it's ordable if you have

1087
00:59:18,544 --> 00:59:21,664
Speaker 4: to buy little bags to put into it, and it's expensed.

1088
00:59:22,024 --> 00:59:25,264
Speaker 4: How many you buy a box of portable toilet bags?

1089
00:59:25,384 --> 00:59:31,064
Speaker 4: Everything is in there, so actually says by elephants. I

1090
00:59:31,104 --> 00:59:33,024
Speaker 4: don't think they bought the elephant. I wonder if the

1091
00:59:33,304 --> 00:59:34,823
Speaker 4: zoo ever asked for a compensation.

1092
00:59:35,264 --> 00:59:37,584
Speaker 2: Hey, listen, this is fantastic. If you've done a great job,

1093
00:59:37,624 --> 00:59:40,384
Speaker 2: your other books are fantastic too. Will be eager to

1094
00:59:40,384 --> 00:59:42,504
Speaker 2: read what you come up with. But thank us for

1095
00:59:42,584 --> 00:59:45,384
Speaker 2: spending so much time with us today. We really appreciate it.

1096
00:59:49,864 --> 00:59:54,904
Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'sha, John Seipher,

1097
00:59:55,224 --> 00:59:56,504
Speaker 5: and Jonathan Stern.

1098
00:59:56,704 --> 00:59:59,064
Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

1099
00:59:59,304 --> 01:00:03,104
Speaker 5: Mission Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable

1100
01:00:03,144 --> 01:00:05,104
Speaker 5: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.