Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everyone,
Speaker 1: welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
Speaker 1: the choices we make and where they lead us. I
Speaker 1: have been internally struggling with something and I want to
Speaker 1: talk about it today on the podcast because we are
Speaker 1: becoming a real community here at ICMP, as I like
Speaker 1: to call it, you know, I like my abbreviations, and
Speaker 1: my hope is that by me sharing today what I've
Speaker 1: been going through, maybe it will help some of you
Speaker 1: listening to not feel alone, maybe you're experiencing something similar.
Speaker 1: And then later I am going to be joined by
Speaker 1: my guest, doctor Lisa orbe Austen to talk about this,
Speaker 1: but first let me just start with talking about my experience.
Speaker 1: I think this is what people are calling imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm in on that title. I've
Speaker 1: always thought it was just called fear, the fear of
Speaker 1: not feeling good enough. Maybe, but maybe once I hear
Speaker 1: from doctor Lisa and I understand imposter syndrome a little
Speaker 1: bit better, I will have a different perspective. Okay, So
Speaker 1: here's what's going on for me right now. I am
Speaker 1: embarking on what will be a pretty big, kind of
Speaker 1: defining move in my work life and inevitably in my
Speaker 1: personal life. It's a path I never saw ahead of me.
Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned before that I'm not much of
Speaker 1: a planner, but this I for sure did not see coming.
Speaker 1: You guys, I am about to release my very own
Speaker 1: fashion line called Me, and it's going to be exclusive
Speaker 1: with my friends at QVC, and there will be monthly
Speaker 1: drops starting July twenty ninth, which is just in a
Speaker 1: few days. It will be full on collections of styles
Speaker 1: that I love and that I want to share with
Speaker 1: all of you. So it's super exciting. But it's also
Speaker 1: kind of bonkers to me. And here's the point. Here's
Speaker 1: the real reason that I'm breaking this news to you
Speaker 1: today in this way, because when this opportunity came to me,
Speaker 1: when I got this unexpected call, this is the neighborhood
Speaker 1: my mind went straight to. I wrote down some of
Speaker 1: my thoughts as they were happening, so let me just
Speaker 1: read them to you. Did I ask for this?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Do I know much about the fashion industry? Huhuh No?
Speaker 1: Not really. Can I tell a woven from a slub knit? Nope?
Speaker 1: So you're saying you have no idea what you're doing,
Speaker 1: then why are you doing it? I mean, you don't
Speaker 1: even have that great a style, do you. Didn't a
Speaker 1: friend recently tell you that you should just wear what
Speaker 1: they told you to wear in order to look good
Speaker 1: and succeed. Aren't you over fifty and washed up? Yeah?
Speaker 1: You should probably back out and keep hiding from the world.
Speaker 1: Huh okay, yeah, so what is that? What is this?
Speaker 1: Why does my mind take me there like that? Why
Speaker 1: do I automatically think I will fail or worse yet,
Speaker 1: I'll succeed, And then what will I not have what
Speaker 1: it takes? Will everyone find out that I'm a fraud?
Speaker 1: I have faced negative self talk my entire life, so
Speaker 1: what you just heard was really nothing new to me.
Speaker 1: Messages like this have been and still are something I
Speaker 1: deal with pretty much on a daily basis, me being
Speaker 1: my own worst enemy, my worst critic, my biggest hater.
Speaker 1: And I've felt these same sort of feelings before way
Speaker 1: more times than I would really like to add. Whether
Speaker 1: it's feeling inadequate as a mom at times like times
Speaker 1: when my girls are struggling with something and I have
Speaker 1: to dispense advice to them and I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: making things up as I go, hoping that it will
Speaker 1: all work out. I felt like this when I signed
Speaker 1: on to do a comedy as an actress on What
Speaker 1: I Like About You, and I was surrounded by people
Speaker 1: who had a lot of experience doing comedy, and they
Speaker 1: were so funny and confident, and I felt like I
Speaker 1: sucked so bad at it. I just I told myself
Speaker 1: I should quit, and I should leave the building and
Speaker 1: never come back. And in my relationships, sometimes I feel
Speaker 1: like I have no idea what I'm doing, Like I'm
Speaker 1: messing things up left and right, Like I should just
Speaker 1: move to a deserted island with my dogs and live
Speaker 1: alone forever. Like no matter what it is, I feel
Speaker 1: somehow unworthy or not good enough, and I feel like
Speaker 1: I shouldn't even try to do whatever it is that's
Speaker 1: ahead of me, that's scaring me, And I want to
Speaker 1: know why am I like this? Is this impostor syndrome?
Speaker 1: My guest today is a psychologist, an executive career coach,
Speaker 1: and the co author of Your Unstoppable Greatness. She is
Speaker 1: an expert when it comes to impostor syndrome. Please welcome
Speaker 1: doctor Lisa orbe Austin to the I Choose Me Podcast.
Speaker 1: Hi doctor Lisa, Hi Jenny, Oh my goodness, so nice
Speaker 1: to see you. Thank you, thank you for being here,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Okay, first off, what is
Speaker 1: impostor syndrome? I don't even think I really know, And
Speaker 1: maybe for some of our listeners out there who who
Speaker 1: may not know what it is, can you just give
Speaker 1: us the definition?
Speaker 2: Sure? So, the original term is the imposter phenomenon, and
Speaker 2: what it means is that while you are skilled, talented, capable,
Speaker 2: you know have the credentials you need to succeed, you
Speaker 2: haven't internalized them. And as a result of not internalizing them,
Speaker 2: you tend to fear being revealed as a fraud. And
Speaker 2: oftentimes that happens as a result of making a mistake
Speaker 2: or an error, having a moment of failure. And usually
Speaker 2: we choose one of two paths when we were confronted
Speaker 2: with that. We either overwork to try to show that
Speaker 2: we do deserve and we do belong there, or we
Speaker 2: self sabotage and get into situations in which we are
Speaker 2: kind of trying to prove to ourselves that we are
Speaker 2: truly a fraud and don't belong or we're given the opportunity,
Speaker 2: and so these kinds of cycles tend to repeat themselves
Speaker 2: around triggers for us around performance and achievement.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so you heard what I was just talking
Speaker 1: about about my inner voices. What do you what do
Speaker 1: you think is that imposter syndrome?
Speaker 2: It sounds very much like it. And I'll tell you
Speaker 2: what when I was when I was listening to you,
Speaker 2: I was sort of taking some notes about sort of
Speaker 2: what sounds familiar and what are some of the things
Speaker 2: that sounded familiar as you're talking through your narrative of
Speaker 2: this experience of starting your new fashion line, is that
Speaker 2: you know it's a new experience. So new experiences are
Speaker 2: often a trigger for us because when we have imposters
Speaker 2: or more often aiming toward mastery doing things that we
Speaker 2: are we know we're good at and we know we
Speaker 2: can succeed at almost one hundred percent, So having something
Speaker 2: new on the horizon that feels unfamiliar. And the other
Speaker 2: concept that I think is there too is oftentimes we see,
Speaker 2: if someone's given this kind of opportunity, they must be
Speaker 2: expert and we have a very narrow concept of what
Speaker 2: expertise means. It means, you know, like you were saying,
Speaker 2: knowing the difference between different types of fabrics or cuts
Speaker 2: are And this may not be the only reason you're
Speaker 2: given an opportunity to do something like this, but we
Speaker 2: often have a very narrow understanding of what expertise means,
Speaker 2: and it's often thing we are definitely not. So that
Speaker 2: was there. I also heard pieces of perfectionism, So this
Speaker 2: idea that you have to be perfect or else that
Speaker 2: you're not you know, good enough, you know, as you
Speaker 2: were learning to be on the sitcom and kind of
Speaker 2: finding your own voice and finding your own comedic kind
Speaker 2: of talents. This idea of overestimating others who felt so confident,
Speaker 2: so comfortable, and underestimating the talents you were giving that
Speaker 2: you weren't looking at at all. So a lot of
Speaker 2: these narratives, having the worst critic or being your worst critic,
Speaker 2: all of these are elements of imposter syndrome. And the
Speaker 2: hallmark is being worrying that you're a fraud.
Speaker 1: The dreaded F word, Yes, fraud. Why does my mind
Speaker 1: do this though? Like, why are we wired that way?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I think you point to something even
Speaker 2: in the question fundamentals, is that oftentimes it comes from
Speaker 2: our childhood experiences and early kind of dynamics. So there
Speaker 2: are a lot of familiar early dynamics that happen as children.
Speaker 2: And that's why it feels so wired, why it feels
Speaker 2: so automatic, like I have no choice, because the ways
Speaker 2: in which we were raised as children oftentimes groove these
Speaker 2: things very very intensely, and so it feels like we
Speaker 2: have no other choice. When we do have other choices,
Speaker 2: they just these ones just feel really familiar and almost comforting,
Speaker 2: even though they are problematic to us.
Speaker 1: I think that's the way it is with most most
Speaker 1: automatic sort of self negative inner dialogue, inner talk, right,
Speaker 1: It's like they're grooved into the into your brain, like
Speaker 1: they're so easy and automatic.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we call them automatic negative thoughts or ants
Speaker 2: you know that are just really really familiar. And I
Speaker 2: think the ants is a great, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: metaphor for the thought, because while it is small and tiny,
Speaker 2: the thought it feels really heavy, can lift more than
Speaker 2: its weight, you know. It has a real powerful, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of resonance for us, more than even the truth
Speaker 2: is for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true. My friend doctor Amon had talked
Speaker 1: to me about that before about ants. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: think everybody has them automatic negative thoughts. Yeah, yes, just unfortunate.
Speaker 1: I've got to be honest, Like sharing this in this
Speaker 1: way on the podcast, it feels kind of vulnerable, a
Speaker 1: little embarrassing, like I'm a little ashamed almost even to
Speaker 1: admit to like my daughters, that I don't know what
Speaker 1: I'm doing as a mom sometimes, or that I doubt
Speaker 1: my abilities or my self worth or my value. I
Speaker 1: would think as a fifty two year old woman, I
Speaker 1: would have gotten a little bit better at this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that to me. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a clinician somebody who writes about this work. It is
Speaker 2: the fundamental piece of overcoming it is being able to
Speaker 2: speak about it, being able to share the vulnerabilities, being
Speaker 2: able to talk about it with people that we care about,
Speaker 2: that we are not perfect, that we are flawed, and
Speaker 2: that we're working on things. I think it is the
Speaker 2: best message you can send your children that at fifty
Speaker 2: two we're still working on stuff. This idea that by
Speaker 2: fifty two I'm perfected is just just not an accomplishable goal.
Speaker 1: Would that'd be nice?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know I'm fifty two too, so yeah, it
Speaker 2: would be nice. I'm not there yet either. Yeah, So
Speaker 2: I do think like that is one of the things
Speaker 2: we talk about about overcoming it, is being able to
Speaker 2: admit it and being able to feel the embarrassment of
Speaker 2: it and realizing it didn't kill you. You were able to
Speaker 2: do it. And actually, oftentimes I find that it actually
Speaker 2: inspires other people to tell their truth because I often
Speaker 2: talk about my own experiences of imposter which are quite
Speaker 2: embarrassing too, and it often instead of instead of humiliating
Speaker 2: embarrassing me, it makes other people feel like they can
Speaker 2: share theirs too. Wait.
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, you have imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2: Yes, so, yeah, I've had it probably my whole life.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to hear what your imposter syndrome voices
Speaker 1: are first, but I also want to know is it
Speaker 1: like that? Is it something that just comes out ab
Speaker 1: out of nowhere? Is it something that you've heard your
Speaker 1: whole life and now you're just kind of like really
Speaker 1: recognizing and listening more to Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2: I think for me, I think because I was being
Speaker 2: trained as a psychologist, I had heard about the term
Speaker 2: in my training and I knew it immediately. I had
Speaker 2: experienced it, but at the time, one of the things
Speaker 2: that I think was detrimental about hearing it from me
Speaker 2: was that I didn't hear like what I could do
Speaker 2: to overcome it. I just heard what it was, and
Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, I'm stuck with this the rest of
Speaker 2: my life, and I'm just going to deal with it.
Speaker 2: And I think that's why we wrote the books, is
Speaker 2: to help people understand there are actual things you can
Speaker 2: do about it. And so for me, growing up, you know,
Speaker 2: I often felt like I wasn't good enough. You know.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, I didn't know this, I think
Speaker 2: growing up, but I think I had learning disabilities that
Speaker 2: were never diagnosed. I think I think I had ADHD
Speaker 2: and it never got noticed. And so as a result,
Speaker 2: I thought I was slow, not very smart, not capable
Speaker 2: to keep up with my peers. And it just evidence
Speaker 2: to self and academics because I wasn't getting the proper
Speaker 2: support I needed academically, and I had to overwork and
Speaker 2: overfunction in order to keep up with my peers. And
Speaker 2: so for me, it's a story of feeling like you know,
Speaker 2: so we talk about and some of the childhood experiences
Speaker 2: are you get labeled as one of one of three things.
Speaker 2: You're either the smart one who doesn't have to work
Speaker 2: really hard and not recognize that, you know, everyone has
Speaker 2: to work hard at something like that's not true. Even
Speaker 2: if you're talented or brilliant, a lot of ways, you
Speaker 2: always have to kind of work. It's just a natural
Speaker 2: pret piece of it. Or the hard working one where
Speaker 2: there's somebody identified in the family who's the smart one
Speaker 2: or the capable and one, and you're the one who
Speaker 2: has to always grind it out. And we often see
Speaker 2: the correlation between the hard working one and learning difficulties
Speaker 2: or learning disabilities, and then the last one to survive
Speaker 2: or so somebody who was using their achievements to escape
Speaker 2: a very difficult or neglectful or abusive home, and that
Speaker 2: the achievements were meant to kind of rise you out
Speaker 2: of that. But the idea is that once you make
Speaker 2: one mistake, you lose everything. And so for me, I
Speaker 2: was the hard working one. I was the one that
Speaker 2: everything had to come from super grindy hard work or
Speaker 2: else I couldn't achieve it. And so that's what I
Speaker 2: always thought, Well, that was situation. And so anytime I
Speaker 2: made a mistake or it was I just didn't work
Speaker 2: hard enough. I had to work harder. I'm never going
Speaker 2: to be expert. I'm never going to be good enough.
Speaker 2: I'm never going to be like those people, and so
Speaker 2: it just trailed me pretty much my whole early career.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you say there's three three childhood personalities, basically, yeah,
Speaker 1: it kind of all into types. I was definitely never
Speaker 1: labeled as a smart one, so scratch that off. I
Speaker 1: am a hard worker. I've always been a hard worker.
Speaker 1: But I don't know about the survivor one. Is this one?
Speaker 1: Like I always felt like as the baby of the family,
Speaker 1: and I felt like the fortunate one or the favorite one,
Speaker 1: or the like whatever, Like everybody sort of treated me
Speaker 1: a certain way because I was the the hours to
Speaker 1: his and the hers. I was the baby, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think it's possible because in essence and
Speaker 2: that baby kind of you know experience. It can be
Speaker 2: like I got this because I was youngest. I didn't
Speaker 2: get this because I deserved it or I was good enough.
Speaker 2: I got it because of this particular status that I
Speaker 2: didn't do anything to deserve. I just happened to be
Speaker 2: born last. So it could be that experience too, of
Speaker 2: feeling like I didn't really deserve this kind of being
Speaker 2: put up in this way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that might be it for me. I mean a
Speaker 1: big part of it because I did have a different
Speaker 1: I do have a different life than where I grew up.
Speaker 1: I do have a different life than my siblings, and
Speaker 1: I've always felt a little guilty about it, Like I've
Speaker 1: always felt like I why me did I? Why am
Speaker 1: I the one that got this life and not that life?
Speaker 2: Yep? Yeah, And I think that can be a real
Speaker 2: you know, we talk about that in the first book
Speaker 2: about Survivors Built and this idea that you're surviving something
Speaker 2: or you know, it doesn't have to be something hard,
Speaker 2: but you have a different experience, and that different experience
Speaker 2: is full of success that perhaps that the thoughts are
Speaker 2: perhaps you didn't deserve or why did I get it
Speaker 2: and not everyone get it evenly? Or why did I
Speaker 2: get it? And like this is different from my siblings
Speaker 2: who had a struggle or whatever may be, And so
Speaker 2: there's a bit of a shame about success. So I
Speaker 2: think oftentimes then it's like burying the success because you
Speaker 2: also don't want to make your siblings feel uncomfortable by
Speaker 2: the success or the especially if they're struggling or have struggled,
Speaker 2: and so the success becomes almost kind of covered in
Speaker 2: somewhat of a shame as well, because it's it's not
Speaker 2: something that feels good to talk about or to share
Speaker 2: because it's someone else got something different.
Speaker 1: Right, And it's such a weird position to be in
Speaker 1: because being in the public, being a public figure, and
Speaker 1: you know, being talked about. I always was like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't want to, don't spotlight me, like, just everybody's equal,
Speaker 1: and look at all the hard work and you know,
Speaker 1: just trying to always make everybody around me feel equal,
Speaker 1: and I just never wanted to stand out.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's a really common experience, but it's okay.
Speaker 1: Not until very recently did I have someone tell me
Speaker 1: someone that I love say it's okay to be amazing,
Speaker 1: Like it's okay because guess what, we're all amazing in
Speaker 1: our own ways.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, I mean that's why we call the book
Speaker 2: to own your greatness and your unstopped bable greatness, because
Speaker 2: I do think we do feel a lot of a
Speaker 2: shame around our successes because either they're tainted in some way,
Speaker 2: or they're imperfect in some way, or they've got some
Speaker 2: baggage connected to them and it affects the way we
Speaker 2: internalize those successes and as a result of that makes
Speaker 2: us feel like we can't carry them with us.
Speaker 1: It's so so interesting, And I back to what you
Speaker 1: said before about like I was saying, I kind of
Speaker 1: feel a little embarrassed or shameful talking about it on
Speaker 1: the podcast, but like, that's one of the things that
Speaker 1: I've learned that's so incredible about having a podcast is
Speaker 1: being vulnerable with the audience and the people that love
Speaker 1: me and that are listening and just want to have
Speaker 1: this connection. You know, that vulnerability is what it's like
Speaker 1: the fiber, the tissue that connects us all. And I
Speaker 1: that there's so much comfort in that, Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: much healing, I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and connection and the feeling of like you were
Speaker 2: saying earlier, like community. People feel a sense of community
Speaker 2: with you, and you can be vulnerable in it because
Speaker 2: they also are dealing with it and not able to
Speaker 2: share it or not able to share it in these
Speaker 2: kinds of public formats.
Speaker 1: For sure. Yeah. My mom was always very sort of
Speaker 1: like free to be you and me, teaching me a
Speaker 1: lot of different alternative ways of thinking and telling me
Speaker 1: how incredible I was and that I could do anything.
Speaker 1: But I feel like there was also you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't have access to this information. Like I often tell
Speaker 1: my girls, like, wow, you are so light years ahead
Speaker 1: of where I was when I was your age, just
Speaker 1: because of the knowledge that you have access to and
Speaker 1: like the people that you get to listen to, like
Speaker 1: podcasts like and listening to experts like you.
Speaker 2: But I was also going to say, probably also because
Speaker 2: of your parenting, because your parenting gave them the next
Speaker 2: generation of what your mom was trying to do. You
Speaker 2: gave them point two oh or point three oh. That
Speaker 2: that's why they also were enlightened to look in this way.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I love that about Yeah, like how your parents tried
Speaker 1: their best. They did their best, and then you learn
Speaker 1: what you learn, and then you go and you try
Speaker 1: to do your best as a parent, and then it
Speaker 1: just gets better and better and better hopefully hopefully. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: So it isn't something that I just have experienced in
Speaker 1: a work environment or situation. It pops up all the time,
Speaker 1: like I was talking about about when I doubt myself
Speaker 1: as a mother sometimes or even as a wife. You know,
Speaker 1: I think that I am not doing a good enough
Speaker 1: job or I have no business even being in a
Speaker 1: relationship sometimes like I'm like, oh, you suck at this.
Speaker 1: But is that just me doubting myself or is that
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome or are those the same things?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think oftentimes we talk about it in
Speaker 2: a work context because I think the triggers are probably
Speaker 2: just more like consistent in a work environment because of
Speaker 2: trying new things, you're taking risks other people in the environment,
Speaker 2: challenging your performance. Do you think that's where we talk
Speaker 2: about it most often? But it does occur in relationships
Speaker 2: because it is it is what we struggle with, right,
Speaker 2: And so these kinds of triggers can happen in relationships
Speaker 2: as well, parenting, partnering, all kinds of relationships. And so
Speaker 2: I do think one of the things that I see
Speaker 2: as a psychologist is when you can work on it
Speaker 2: in one area, I see it ripple effect through all
Speaker 2: the other areas. And so it oftentimes people come to
Speaker 2: work on it related to work and then they'll say, oh,
Speaker 2: my gosh, my relationship with my partner is also shifting.
Speaker 2: And the way that I feel in this experienced parenting
Speaker 2: feels different because I do think it's really about shifting
Speaker 2: the way that we see success and the way that
Speaker 2: we see relationships should function, or the way that we
Speaker 2: see that we should be performing, and it really gives us,
Speaker 2: hopefully as we work on it, an idea that like
Speaker 2: everything we like you were saying earlier, everything we do
Speaker 2: is individual. Our way of relating to somebody is individual,
Speaker 2: and the kind of relationships I'm going to have with
Speaker 2: my partner is not going to be something that I've
Speaker 2: seen before. Is then I'm actually working to evolve over time.
Speaker 2: And so I think it's that perspective, like I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to hit some perfection mark, I'm actually just trying
Speaker 2: to be good enough, which is what we work on
Speaker 2: when we work on perfectionism. Is the good enough, the
Speaker 2: good enough mother, the good enough partner, which really is cringey.
Speaker 2: Oftentimes do people experience perfection They want to be perfect,
Speaker 2: but that's not what we're aiming for when we're dealing
Speaker 2: with her.
Speaker 1: I want to be my best, like I want to
Speaker 1: be my best? Is that? Is that also? Aka? Good enough?
Speaker 1: Is that good enough as long.
Speaker 2: As you feel like you've attained it right in the past,
Speaker 2: Like if you feel like you've never attained your best
Speaker 2: then then this or you attain it so rarely, then
Speaker 2: that might be a level that's a little bit too
Speaker 2: out of reage, right, But if you're experiencing it regularly, yeah,
Speaker 2: then I think it is. It can be the good enough.
Speaker 1: I love that that giving yourself the freedom to say
Speaker 1: good enough is good enough? Yes, in everything that feels good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that. I often hear this conversation more amongst women.
Speaker 1: Is this something that affects women more than men? Would
Speaker 1: you say no?
Speaker 2: While it was initially studied with women in the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 2: it's where the concept originated. In the late nineteen seventies,
Speaker 2: it was looked at largely actually only with women for
Speaker 2: about the first ten years of the research, and then
Speaker 2: like in the eighties and the nineties, they begin to
Speaker 2: look at men and they see that there are no differences.
Speaker 2: There are no statistical differences between men and women who
Speaker 2: experience it. They don't experience it at larger we don't
Speaker 2: experience it at larger numbers.
Speaker 1: Why why was it just studied for women?
Speaker 2: I think it was two women's psychologists who were kind
Speaker 2: who were actually were seeing predominantly women in a college setting.
Speaker 2: I just assumed because they were seeing larger women that
Speaker 2: it was occurring largely in women. But we do find
Speaker 2: too that there are some differences in the ways that
Speaker 2: women experience it and men experience it, although they don't
Speaker 2: experience it in different numbers. So for women, we see
Speaker 2: them be counterphobic, so they actually will face the thing
Speaker 2: that they fear, and so as a result of that,
Speaker 2: they'll get triggered to experience the imposter center and more often.
Speaker 2: And where men tend to avoid the triggers and tend
Speaker 2: to aim toward mastery, they triend to kind of only
Speaker 2: involve themselves in things that make them feel comfortable. So
Speaker 2: as a result, they actually don't push themselves and often
Speaker 2: are underperforming. And so you can it looks a little different,
Speaker 2: and it can look a little different in men and women,
Speaker 2: and so I think that's why oftentimes we hear that,
Speaker 2: you know, women experience it more often because they're triggered
Speaker 2: more often, but they're not having it higher numbers or
Speaker 2: having it in greater magnitude.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting that you're saying that women are triggered
Speaker 1: more often than men.
Speaker 2: Yes, that is a huge statement, because they say they
Speaker 2: face it right Like you're going to do the line.
Speaker 2: You're going to do the fashion line even though you
Speaker 2: got triggered. That's homophobia, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got to beat this. I can do this.
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, okay, okay, So we talked about that it
Speaker 1: doesn't just show up overnight, although it can, like maybe
Speaker 1: somebody that never even knew about imposter syndrome will wake
Speaker 1: up tomorrow and be like, oh my gosh, I think
Speaker 1: I'm having imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think they identify it, but we often
Speaker 2: see it as almost like people have had it for
Speaker 2: a very long time. They just didn't have the words
Speaker 2: for it, or they didn't know what it actually was.
Speaker 2: Because oftentimes when people say my boss, you know, triggered
Speaker 2: me to have imposter syndrome, it's or my boss gave
Speaker 2: me imposter Likely that's not the case. You likely triggering
Speaker 2: you and that you're experiencing it, but you've likely been
Speaker 2: experiencing this for a while.
Speaker 1: That is is good to know because I sort of
Speaker 1: felt like I was born with it, you know what,
Speaker 1: even when you struggled with it forever. Yeah, whether it
Speaker 1: was impost labeled as imposter syndrome then or if it
Speaker 1: was just self doubt or lack of confidence, lack of
Speaker 1: self esteem. All of those things are sort of kind
Speaker 1: of dancing.
Speaker 2: They're all correl Yeah, they're all correlated. So in the
Speaker 2: research we find that self doubt, self esteem, anxiety, they're
Speaker 2: all correlated to so they have a relationship with imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2: So oftentimes what we when people ask is self doubt
Speaker 2: imposter syndrome. No, it is that you're experiencing what we
Speaker 2: call it constellation of things. You're experiencing the self doubt,
Speaker 2: the experience of being a fraud, the overestimating others, undermestinating yourselves,
Speaker 2: the perfectionism. So you're the cycle of imposters. You're experiencing
Speaker 2: a bunch of things besides a self doubt that that
Speaker 2: ring true for you.
Speaker 1: Wow, that sounds like it could be debilitating kind of
Speaker 1: all those things that constellation you just dont yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially if you're in the self sabotage cycle,
Speaker 2: you know, and you're kind of it can be particularly
Speaker 2: debilitating because you often feel like there are not a
Speaker 2: lot of successes because you're sabotaging yourself a lot. But
Speaker 2: even in the overwork cycle, you're often experiencing burnout, So
Speaker 2: that can be also debilitating.
Speaker 1: I think when you talk, we were talking about being
Speaker 1: vulnerable and just talking about it and how that is
Speaker 1: such a huge sort of opening to mastering it. I
Speaker 1: feel like that is the case with everything, because for me,
Speaker 1: I know that there have been so many years where
Speaker 1: I've been trapped in here with all of these thoughts,
Speaker 1: whether they were good thoughts or bad thoughts. I honestly
Speaker 1: there have been times when I've thought I've told my
Speaker 1: partner something, but I haven't told them anything at all.
Speaker 1: It was just happening inside my head. I thought I
Speaker 1: told them. But so just like talking about it freely
Speaker 1: and openly and discussing it, it really does sort of
Speaker 1: like demystify it, destigmatize it, and sort of make it
Speaker 1: a little bit more digestible, a little bit more easier
Speaker 1: to handle, yeah, and cope.
Speaker 2: With, because the shame in the dark corners is dangerous.
Speaker 2: Like when a psychologistm we're trained and they often tall
Speaker 2: shame is the most dangerous of emotions because it is
Speaker 2: the hardest one to kind of like, you know, then
Speaker 2: deal with and get to the other side. And so
Speaker 2: in revealing it, it helps reduce the shame you know,
Speaker 2: around it. The stigmas is around it where we can
Speaker 2: be a community that can say I struggle with imposter
Speaker 2: syndrome and like you know, you say, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: going to choose something different, Like there are behaviors you
Speaker 2: can choose that don't have to get you caught in
Speaker 2: the cycle consistently.
Speaker 1: And so talk to me about that. Talk to me
Speaker 1: about what can we do to beat imposter syndrome, Like
Speaker 1: what are the steps? Tell me one by one, I
Speaker 1: need sure.
Speaker 2: So the first one we talked about, which is like
Speaker 2: understanding where it came from. So I do think it
Speaker 2: can be the hardest step in the sense of you've
Speaker 2: got to go look in the dark corners of your
Speaker 2: early childhood experiences, which can be painful, but I think
Speaker 2: so important to figure out how did this come to
Speaker 2: be the way it is? And so that is a
Speaker 2: piece of it. We talk about the family dynamics that
Speaker 2: are common, codependence, narcissism, particular roles. There are all kinds
Speaker 2: of things that kind of get us started in this.
Speaker 1: Is that what they call the work?
Speaker 2: Yes, it is, it is work. Yeah, you got to
Speaker 2: do the work. It is that hard work, but it
Speaker 2: is it is so worth it because you know, as
Speaker 2: a result of doing the work, you can instead see
Speaker 2: the thing come as opposed to be blindsided by the thing.
Speaker 2: And so I think it is so important because you
Speaker 2: get to see what are your vulnerabilities, what are your
Speaker 2: triggers are, what are the things that you're commonly caught
Speaker 2: with because of that early experience you know?
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, so when you start talking about it,
Speaker 1: you know what it is. So like you said, it
Speaker 1: doesn't blindside you. You see it coming.
Speaker 2: You see it coming. That's good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the first step.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's the first and the second step is then
Speaker 2: sort of understanding your trigger. So understanding the kinds of
Speaker 2: things that you know get you triggered. So you were
Speaker 2: talking earlier about a new experience, so new things get
Speaker 2: us trigger it. Also, things like, you know, making a
Speaker 2: mistake can get us triggered. Things like you know, feeling
Speaker 2: rusty at something something you haven't done in a while
Speaker 2: can get you triggered. Things that are complex and have
Speaker 2: a lot of steps where you can go wrong can
Speaker 2: get you triggered. So getting to understand your particular triggers.
Speaker 2: Public speaking can be a trigger. So what are the
Speaker 2: things that make you feel vulnerable and kind of fraudulent
Speaker 2: or that you're going to be exposed, you know, so
Speaker 2: understanding them so you can have a lay of the
Speaker 2: land of your triggers and then sort of talking about
Speaker 2: your narrative. What are the things that you're telling yourself.
Speaker 2: So when you were talking about, you know, saying these
Speaker 2: things to yourself, like why would they choose me? And
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about fashion or paraphrasing, you know,
Speaker 2: these are the narratives the beginnings of the narratives that
Speaker 2: we're telling ourselves is that I'm unqualified to do this. Well, well,
Speaker 2: what about the reasons why they asked you? Those didn't
Speaker 2: even come up, you know, what are the reasons why
Speaker 2: they asked you? You know, to really dig into them
Speaker 2: and to really understand, you know, the narrative that we're
Speaker 2: telling ourselves. It's that's sort of underlying this idea that
Speaker 2: I am a fraud, I don't belong, this isn't good
Speaker 2: you know, this isn't good enough. You know, So really
Speaker 2: working on that narrative piece how we talk about ourselves
Speaker 2: to ourselves and how we talk about ourselves to others,
Speaker 2: and making sure that those narratives are accurate, that they're
Speaker 2: that they are reality based that they can be tested,
Speaker 2: and then also too that they're positive in some way
Speaker 2: about our skills, accomplishments, the things that we've done.
Speaker 1: That's so cool because doctor Raymond also taught me this
Speaker 1: thing where you where you ask yourself and you have
Speaker 1: like a negative thought, You ask yourself is it true?
Speaker 1: And then you're you're like, well, kind of it feels
Speaker 1: true to me right now, And then you ask yourself
Speaker 1: is it absolutely true? Like without a shadow of a doubt,
Speaker 1: And then you kind of have to be honest and say, well, no,
Speaker 1: not really. I'm kind of just sort of assuming that
Speaker 1: or just regressing to that familiar behavior because I know
Speaker 1: how to handle that.
Speaker 2: Yes. And that is another step which is dealing with
Speaker 2: the automatic negative thoughts, which is asking is it true?
Speaker 2: Where is the data? Like where can I actually prove
Speaker 2: that I'm stupid or incapable or you know, not good enough?
Speaker 2: Where's that data? And then also too, are there other
Speaker 2: people who believe that data? Like can I go around
Speaker 2: and you know, ask other people do they think I
Speaker 2: shouldn't do this because I'm just not capable, you know?
Speaker 2: And where's that data? And if there's different data, how
Speaker 2: do we take that data in. If you talk to
Speaker 2: someone and you ask them should I do this line?
Speaker 2: And then they say to you, of course you should,
Speaker 2: like you'd be amazing, and you go blow them off
Speaker 2: off You're not trying to actually hear that data.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what happens. You listen to all the negative comments.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you blow them up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You can have like one hundred great things said about you,
Speaker 1: and then that one person that says something negative, you
Speaker 1: like latch onto that.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, because you're looking for confirmatory bias. You're looking
Speaker 2: for someone to confirm the negative narrative. And you really
Speaker 2: have to think about data. Did ninety nine percent of
Speaker 2: the people say yes, you should do this? And then
Speaker 2: the one percent that's in the minority, And then you
Speaker 2: need to push that aside because that's not necessarily what
Speaker 2: you're hearing from most people. So really challenging the automatic
Speaker 2: negative thoughts. We also talk about categorizing the negative thoughts
Speaker 2: because it helps to externalize them and not see them
Speaker 2: as a part of you, but to see them as external. Okay,
Speaker 2: so like you know, being able to classify, like you know,
Speaker 2: everyone thinks I shouldn't do this, right, it's a mind
Speaker 2: reading ant, or it's in order of thinking about what's
Speaker 2: going to happen. It's going to be a disaster, it's
Speaker 2: going to fail, a catastrophizing ant. So being able to
Speaker 2: label the ants because it helps you then see them
Speaker 2: as external to you and not a part of you,
Speaker 2: and then coming up with a positive, accurate narrative like
Speaker 2: I was asked to do this line because I'm competent
Speaker 2: and capable. They thought I would be a great spokesporers.
Speaker 2: You know that you kind of find the actual truth
Speaker 2: and the narrative about why you're being asked to do this,
Speaker 2: and it may not be that expertise person that you thought,
Speaker 2: you know, it might be some other expertise that you
Speaker 2: need to claim, so challenging the answer is one of them. Also,
Speaker 2: oftentimes when we have imposter syndrome, we're really bad at
Speaker 2: self care and so really making sure that our self
Speaker 2: care is embedded in our lives and so making sure
Speaker 2: that we're taking care of like we talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: the three buckets of self care, so like your physical
Speaker 2: self care, how you take care of your body and
Speaker 2: release tension within your body. And so we often say
Speaker 2: the issues are in the tissues. So like how do
Speaker 2: you then you know, kind of release the negative stuff
Speaker 2: that's going on, you're buy the tension. The reflective self
Speaker 2: care like how are you actually you know, thinking about like,
Speaker 2: you know, how you stay present and focused on the
Speaker 2: moment and the issues that are happening in the moment,
Speaker 2: things like mindfulness, gratitude, exercises, spirituality, things like that. And
Speaker 2: then sort of the processing kind of bucket, like how
Speaker 2: are you processing this information through a therapist, a coach,
Speaker 2: other plate, a mentor you know, friends, how are you
Speaker 2: processing the information and problem solving some of the information
Speaker 2: that's coming towards you in your self care? And clearly
Speaker 2: you can do other things, but I think it's really
Speaker 2: those are our fundamental buckets. And then thinking about how
Speaker 2: self care is embedded to take care of you in
Speaker 2: your process and not just something that happens when you
Speaker 2: have time.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's so important. Oh my god, I love these
Speaker 1: These are very easy, doable tips for people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and all research based, all research fact you know
Speaker 2: that can help you reduce your imposter syndrome in a
Speaker 2: day to day way, in a very easy day to
Speaker 2: day way.
Speaker 1: And even just talking about it and asking yourself ooh,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling these negative thoughts, I'm recognizing them. What is that?
Speaker 1: Where is it coming from? Yeah? Could that be impostors syndrome?
Speaker 1: How do I handle that differently than if I just
Speaker 1: just latch onto it, believe it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and sink it to the spiral? Like, what might
Speaker 2: I do differently? We talk about breaking the cycle? Is
Speaker 2: there a way to kind of challenge the thought? Is
Speaker 2: there a way instead of self sabotaging to like lean
Speaker 2: into this in a healthy way instead of overworking? Kid,
Speaker 2: we do this, you know, in a thoughtful, planful, mindful
Speaker 2: way that doesn't drain us. Yeah? Yeah, how do we
Speaker 2: take in positive feedback?
Speaker 1: I like to self soothe sometimes, and I try to
Speaker 1: teach this to my daughter too, Like to think about
Speaker 1: little Jenny, like my little girl inside of me. You
Speaker 1: think about little Lisa and like discomfort her and say
Speaker 1: it's okay, Everything is going to be okay. You don't
Speaker 1: need to get so worked up about this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like what does she need? How can you comfort her?
Speaker 2: What can you give to her that she's not getting?
Speaker 2: But yes, I love We talked about the inner child
Speaker 2: stuff all the time. We love the inner child stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I could talk about the inner child.
Speaker 1: When I'm feeling imposter syndromey, Should I tell like my family,
Speaker 1: should I tell my partner? Should I let people in
Speaker 1: on the dark places?
Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah, because that's also part of the steps is
Speaker 2: to kind of really be able to tell other people
Speaker 2: and to have them be able to you know, comfort
Speaker 2: you and also potentially provide some level of support. And
Speaker 2: I think oftentimes we have to kind of sometimes tell
Speaker 2: them the kind of support we may need or they
Speaker 2: have to be culture to that because sometimes the idea
Speaker 2: of like get over it really hurts us because it's
Speaker 2: not that easy to get over. It takes work, you
Speaker 2: know that. You know, while we talk about these steps
Speaker 2: and they feel really easy, actually executing them is effort
Speaker 2: and work and takes a lot of consistent, you know
Speaker 2: work to kind of regroove these thinkings. So I do think,
Speaker 2: you know, helping to educate our partners, our children, and
Speaker 2: our family and about the kinds of responses that are
Speaker 2: actually helpful for us and the ones that are not
Speaker 2: can be very helpful in the way that they respond
Speaker 2: to us.
Speaker 1: Okay, that is good information. I do want to ask
Speaker 1: you imposter syndrome, you know how like this is a
Speaker 1: terrible analogy. But like Brussels sprouts had their moment, you know,
Speaker 1: everybody wanted to eat the Brussels sprouts. And now, thank god, yeah,
Speaker 1: menopause is having it's you know day and the sun.
Speaker 1: Thank god, everyone's talking about it. Do you hear people saying, oh,
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome is just a buzz topic, and of course
Speaker 1: everybody's just going to jump on the bandwagon and talk
Speaker 1: about it because they want to seem relevant.
Speaker 2: Yes, I hear it all the time, and it's really
Speaker 2: aggravating frank that, like, you know, we've been working on
Speaker 2: this research as social scientists for like forty years, like
Speaker 2: and I think it's become really popularized by people like
Speaker 2: Michelle Obama and other people who started talking about it
Speaker 2: about their experience of it. That I think the people
Speaker 2: thought it was like a buzz term, but it's not
Speaker 2: a buzz term. It's actually really well researched, like phenomenon.
Speaker 2: The American Psychological Association just came out with an edited
Speaker 2: volume this year on it. It's not a it's not
Speaker 2: a fly by night concept, and I hope it doesn't
Speaker 2: get seen as such because I do feel like, finally,
Speaker 2: like the buzz piece has been helpful, so finally we
Speaker 2: can talk about it, and finally we can provide people
Speaker 2: like accurate interventions and solutions to deal with it. But
Speaker 2: I do think, like I worry that it eventually will
Speaker 2: be considered buzzy and it will go away, which will
Speaker 2: make me deeply saddened by the people who don't get
Speaker 2: the help that they need to kind of be on
Speaker 2: the other side of it.
Speaker 1: Well, we will keep it alive, we will keep it buzzing.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about it. Yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: I like to do this with everybody that comes on
Speaker 1: the show. Can you please tell us what was your
Speaker 1: last I choose.
Speaker 2: Me moment when I got my nails done. I always
Speaker 2: get my nails done. I have I have like you
Speaker 2: can fair owls.
Speaker 1: That is so neat.
Speaker 2: Oh. I love a good man of Karen more than anything.
Speaker 1: So so carving out the time for your.
Speaker 2: Because it's multiple hours, it's not an hour long.
Speaker 1: That is a good one because people just kind of
Speaker 1: don't think of the little things like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's and for me, it's deeper than that.
Speaker 2: Like I'm a nail bier, so like for me to
Speaker 2: do like my nails is a really about kind of
Speaker 2: finding other ways to soothe my anxiety besides nail biting,
Speaker 2: and finding some way to kind of do something healthy
Speaker 2: and pausitive for myself.
Speaker 1: So I know, I have a daughter who's a nail
Speaker 1: bier and she loves to get her nails done also,
Speaker 1: and it also just sort of lifts her self esteem, yeah,
Speaker 1: to be able to look at her nails and think,
Speaker 1: look how pretty they look instead of like how bloody.
Speaker 2: It's been bad. It's been dark days with the nail fighting.
Speaker 1: Oh I love that get your nails done perfect. I
Speaker 1: choose me moment. Thank you so much doctor Lisa for
Speaker 1: joining us today. And I'm so glad that you were
Speaker 1: able to share all of your knowledge with everybody. And
Speaker 1: it is a real thing, and I think that if
Speaker 1: we're being honest, probably all of us have felt it
Speaker 1: at some point, and it's just nice to talk about
Speaker 1: it openly, to take away the shame and embarrassment around
Speaker 1: it and just give it some air, you know, Yes,
Speaker 1: So thank you.
Speaker 2: You're so welcome.
Speaker 1: That conversation was so personal to me, and I want
Speaker 1: to thank doctor Lisa for joining me and listening to me.
Speaker 1: I've been internally dealing with this and it feels really
Speaker 1: good to let this imposter syndrome secret out. As we
Speaker 1: continue to choose ourselves each week, I want to challenge
Speaker 1: you to something new. I talked about soothing my inner
Speaker 1: child with doctor Lisa, and I want you to do
Speaker 1: that now. I want you to think of your younger self,
Speaker 1: Visualize that little young version of you, and I want
Speaker 1: you to give little you a hug and tell them
Speaker 1: that you love them and that everything is going to
Speaker 1: be okay. Sometimes we are holding off on subconsciously to
Speaker 1: fear or trauma that we experienced as children, so we
Speaker 1: need to be gentle and love that version of ourselves.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to I Choose Me. You can check
Speaker 1: out all the social links in our show notes and
Speaker 1: make sure to follow, rate and review the podcast, and
Speaker 1: use the hashtag I Choose Me. I'll be right here
Speaker 1: next week. I hope you choose to come back to