1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everyone, 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: the choices we make and where they lead us. I 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: have been internally struggling with something and I want to 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: talk about it today on the podcast because we are 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: becoming a real community here at ICMP, as I like 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: to call it, you know, I like my abbreviations, and 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: my hope is that by me sharing today what I've 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: been going through, maybe it will help some of you 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: listening to not feel alone, maybe you're experiencing something similar. 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: And then later I am going to be joined by 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: my guest, doctor Lisa orbe Austen to talk about this, 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: but first let me just start with talking about my experience. 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: I think this is what people are calling imposter syndrome. 15 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm in on that title. I've 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: always thought it was just called fear, the fear of 17 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: not feeling good enough. Maybe, but maybe once I hear 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: from doctor Lisa and I understand imposter syndrome a little 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: bit better, I will have a different perspective. Okay, So 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: here's what's going on for me right now. I am 21 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: embarking on what will be a pretty big, kind of 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: defining move in my work life and inevitably in my 23 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: personal life. It's a path I never saw ahead of me. 24 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned before that I'm not much of 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: a planner, but this I for sure did not see coming. 26 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: You guys, I am about to release my very own 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: fashion line called Me, and it's going to be exclusive 28 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: with my friends at QVC, and there will be monthly 29 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: drops starting July twenty ninth, which is just in a 30 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: few days. It will be full on collections of styles 31 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: that I love and that I want to share with 32 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: all of you. So it's super exciting. But it's also 33 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: kind of bonkers to me. And here's the point. Here's 34 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: the real reason that I'm breaking this news to you 35 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: today in this way, because when this opportunity came to me, 36 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,279 Speaker 1: when I got this unexpected call, this is the neighborhood 37 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: my mind went straight to. I wrote down some of 38 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: my thoughts as they were happening, so let me just 39 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: read them to you. Did I ask for this? 40 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: No? 41 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: Do I know much about the fashion industry? Huhuh No? 42 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: Not really. Can I tell a woven from a slub knit? Nope? 43 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: So you're saying you have no idea what you're doing, 44 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: then why are you doing it? I mean, you don't 45 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: even have that great a style, do you. Didn't a 46 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: friend recently tell you that you should just wear what 47 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: they told you to wear in order to look good 48 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: and succeed. Aren't you over fifty and washed up? Yeah? 49 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: You should probably back out and keep hiding from the world. 50 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: Huh okay, yeah, so what is that? What is this? 51 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: Why does my mind take me there like that? Why 52 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: do I automatically think I will fail or worse yet, 53 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: I'll succeed, And then what will I not have what 54 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: it takes? Will everyone find out that I'm a fraud? 55 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: I have faced negative self talk my entire life, so 56 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: what you just heard was really nothing new to me. 57 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: Messages like this have been and still are something I 58 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: deal with pretty much on a daily basis, me being 59 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: my own worst enemy, my worst critic, my biggest hater. 60 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: And I've felt these same sort of feelings before way 61 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: more times than I would really like to add. Whether 62 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: it's feeling inadequate as a mom at times like times 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: when my girls are struggling with something and I have 64 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: to dispense advice to them and I feel like I'm 65 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: making things up as I go, hoping that it will 66 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: all work out. I felt like this when I signed 67 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: on to do a comedy as an actress on What 68 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: I Like About You, and I was surrounded by people 69 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: who had a lot of experience doing comedy, and they 70 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: were so funny and confident, and I felt like I 71 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: sucked so bad at it. I just I told myself 72 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: I should quit, and I should leave the building and 73 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: never come back. And in my relationships, sometimes I feel 74 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: like I have no idea what I'm doing, Like I'm 75 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: messing things up left and right, Like I should just 76 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: move to a deserted island with my dogs and live 77 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: alone forever. Like no matter what it is, I feel 78 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: somehow unworthy or not good enough, and I feel like 79 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: I shouldn't even try to do whatever it is that's 80 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: ahead of me, that's scaring me, And I want to 81 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: know why am I like this? Is this impostor syndrome? 82 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: My guest today is a psychologist, an executive career coach, 83 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 1: and the co author of Your Unstoppable Greatness. She is 84 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: an expert when it comes to impostor syndrome. Please welcome 85 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: doctor Lisa orbe Austin to the I Choose Me Podcast. 86 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: Hi doctor Lisa, Hi Jenny, Oh my goodness, so nice 87 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: to see you. Thank you, thank you for being here, 88 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Okay, first off, what is 89 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: impostor syndrome? I don't even think I really know, And 90 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: maybe for some of our listeners out there who who 91 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: may not know what it is, can you just give 92 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: us the definition? 93 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: Sure? So, the original term is the imposter phenomenon, and 94 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: what it means is that while you are skilled, talented, capable, 95 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: you know have the credentials you need to succeed, you 96 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 2: haven't internalized them. And as a result of not internalizing them, 97 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 2: you tend to fear being revealed as a fraud. And 98 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: oftentimes that happens as a result of making a mistake 99 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: or an error, having a moment of failure. And usually 100 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: we choose one of two paths when we were confronted 101 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: with that. We either overwork to try to show that 102 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: we do deserve and we do belong there, or we 103 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: self sabotage and get into situations in which we are 104 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 2: kind of trying to prove to ourselves that we are 105 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: truly a fraud and don't belong or we're given the opportunity, 106 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: and so these kinds of cycles tend to repeat themselves 107 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: around triggers for us around performance and achievement. 108 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so you heard what I was just talking 109 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: about about my inner voices. What do you what do 110 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: you think is that imposter syndrome? 111 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: It sounds very much like it. And I'll tell you 112 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 2: what when I was when I was listening to you, 113 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: I was sort of taking some notes about sort of 114 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: what sounds familiar and what are some of the things 115 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: that sounded familiar as you're talking through your narrative of 116 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: this experience of starting your new fashion line, is that 117 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: you know it's a new experience. So new experiences are 118 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: often a trigger for us because when we have imposters 119 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: or more often aiming toward mastery doing things that we 120 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 2: are we know we're good at and we know we 121 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: can succeed at almost one hundred percent, So having something 122 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: new on the horizon that feels unfamiliar. And the other 123 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: concept that I think is there too is oftentimes we see, 124 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: if someone's given this kind of opportunity, they must be 125 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: expert and we have a very narrow concept of what 126 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: expertise means. It means, you know, like you were saying, 127 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: knowing the difference between different types of fabrics or cuts 128 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: are And this may not be the only reason you're 129 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 2: given an opportunity to do something like this, but we 130 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: often have a very narrow understanding of what expertise means, 131 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: and it's often thing we are definitely not. So that 132 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: was there. I also heard pieces of perfectionism, So this 133 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: idea that you have to be perfect or else that 134 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: you're not you know, good enough, you know, as you 135 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: were learning to be on the sitcom and kind of 136 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 2: finding your own voice and finding your own comedic kind 137 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: of talents. This idea of overestimating others who felt so confident, 138 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: so comfortable, and underestimating the talents you were giving that 139 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: you weren't looking at at all. So a lot of 140 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: these narratives, having the worst critic or being your worst critic, 141 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: all of these are elements of imposter syndrome. And the 142 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: hallmark is being worrying that you're a fraud. 143 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: The dreaded F word, Yes, fraud. Why does my mind 144 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: do this though? Like, why are we wired that way? 145 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I think you point to something even 146 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 2: in the question fundamentals, is that oftentimes it comes from 147 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: our childhood experiences and early kind of dynamics. So there 148 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: are a lot of familiar early dynamics that happen as children. 149 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: And that's why it feels so wired, why it feels 150 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: so automatic, like I have no choice, because the ways 151 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: in which we were raised as children oftentimes groove these 152 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: things very very intensely, and so it feels like we 153 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: have no other choice. When we do have other choices, 154 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: they just these ones just feel really familiar and almost comforting, 155 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: even though they are problematic to us. 156 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: I think that's the way it is with most most 157 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: automatic sort of self negative inner dialogue, inner talk, right, 158 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: It's like they're grooved into the into your brain, like 159 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: they're so easy and automatic. 160 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we call them automatic negative thoughts or ants 161 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: you know that are just really really familiar. And I 162 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: think the ants is a great, you know, kind of 163 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 2: metaphor for the thought, because while it is small and tiny, 164 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: the thought it feels really heavy, can lift more than 165 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: its weight, you know. It has a real powerful, you know, 166 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: kind of resonance for us, more than even the truth 167 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: is for us. 168 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true. My friend doctor Amon had talked 169 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: to me about that before about ants. Yeah, and I 170 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: think everybody has them automatic negative thoughts. Yeah, yes, just unfortunate. 171 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: I've got to be honest, Like sharing this in this 172 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: way on the podcast, it feels kind of vulnerable, a 173 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: little embarrassing, like I'm a little ashamed almost even to 174 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: admit to like my daughters, that I don't know what 175 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: I'm doing as a mom sometimes, or that I doubt 176 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: my abilities or my self worth or my value. I 177 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: would think as a fifty two year old woman, I 178 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: would have gotten a little bit better at this. 179 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that to me. You know, it's 180 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: a clinician somebody who writes about this work. It is 181 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: the fundamental piece of overcoming it is being able to 182 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: speak about it, being able to share the vulnerabilities, being 183 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: able to talk about it with people that we care about, 184 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: that we are not perfect, that we are flawed, and 185 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 2: that we're working on things. I think it is the 186 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: best message you can send your children that at fifty 187 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: two we're still working on stuff. This idea that by 188 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: fifty two I'm perfected is just just not an accomplishable goal. 189 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: Would that'd be nice? 190 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know I'm fifty two too, so yeah, it 191 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 2: would be nice. I'm not there yet either. Yeah, So 192 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: I do think like that is one of the things 193 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: we talk about about overcoming it, is being able to 194 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 2: admit it and being able to feel the embarrassment of 195 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: it and realizing it didn't kill you. You were able to 196 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: do it. And actually, oftentimes I find that it actually 197 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: inspires other people to tell their truth because I often 198 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: talk about my own experiences of imposter which are quite 199 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: embarrassing too, and it often instead of instead of humiliating 200 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: embarrassing me, it makes other people feel like they can 201 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: share theirs too. Wait. 202 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: Wait, wait, you have imposter syndrome. 203 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: Yes, so, yeah, I've had it probably my whole life. 204 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: Okay, I want to hear what your imposter syndrome voices 205 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: are first, but I also want to know is it 206 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: like that? Is it something that just comes out ab 207 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: out of nowhere? Is it something that you've heard your 208 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: whole life and now you're just kind of like really 209 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: recognizing and listening more to Yeah, I mean. 210 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: I think for me, I think because I was being 211 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: trained as a psychologist, I had heard about the term 212 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: in my training and I knew it immediately. I had 213 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 2: experienced it, but at the time, one of the things 214 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: that I think was detrimental about hearing it from me 215 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: was that I didn't hear like what I could do 216 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: to overcome it. I just heard what it was, and 217 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, I'm stuck with this the rest of 218 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: my life, and I'm just going to deal with it. 219 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: And I think that's why we wrote the books, is 220 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: to help people understand there are actual things you can 221 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: do about it. And so for me, growing up, you know, 222 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: I often felt like I wasn't good enough. You know. 223 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: I think, you know, I didn't know this, I think 224 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: growing up, but I think I had learning disabilities that 225 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: were never diagnosed. I think I think I had ADHD 226 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: and it never got noticed. And so as a result, 227 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: I thought I was slow, not very smart, not capable 228 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 2: to keep up with my peers. And it just evidence 229 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 2: to self and academics because I wasn't getting the proper 230 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: support I needed academically, and I had to overwork and 231 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: overfunction in order to keep up with my peers. And 232 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: so for me, it's a story of feeling like you know, 233 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: so we talk about and some of the childhood experiences 234 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: are you get labeled as one of one of three things. 235 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 2: You're either the smart one who doesn't have to work 236 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: really hard and not recognize that, you know, everyone has 237 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: to work hard at something like that's not true. Even 238 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 2: if you're talented or brilliant, a lot of ways, you 239 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: always have to kind of work. It's just a natural 240 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: pret piece of it. Or the hard working one where 241 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: there's somebody identified in the family who's the smart one 242 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 2: or the capable and one, and you're the one who 243 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 2: has to always grind it out. And we often see 244 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: the correlation between the hard working one and learning difficulties 245 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 2: or learning disabilities, and then the last one to survive 246 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: or so somebody who was using their achievements to escape 247 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: a very difficult or neglectful or abusive home, and that 248 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: the achievements were meant to kind of rise you out 249 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: of that. But the idea is that once you make 250 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 2: one mistake, you lose everything. And so for me, I 251 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 2: was the hard working one. I was the one that 252 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: everything had to come from super grindy hard work or 253 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: else I couldn't achieve it. And so that's what I 254 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 2: always thought, Well, that was situation. And so anytime I 255 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: made a mistake or it was I just didn't work 256 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: hard enough. I had to work harder. I'm never going 257 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: to be expert. I'm never going to be good enough. 258 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: I'm never going to be like those people, and so 259 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 2: it just trailed me pretty much my whole early career. 260 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you say there's three three childhood personalities, basically, yeah, 261 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: it kind of all into types. I was definitely never 262 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: labeled as a smart one, so scratch that off. I 263 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: am a hard worker. I've always been a hard worker. 264 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: But I don't know about the survivor one. Is this one? 265 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: Like I always felt like as the baby of the family, 266 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: and I felt like the fortunate one or the favorite one, 267 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: or the like whatever, Like everybody sort of treated me 268 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: a certain way because I was the the hours to 269 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: his and the hers. I was the baby, you know. 270 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think it's possible because in essence and 271 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: that baby kind of you know experience. It can be 272 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: like I got this because I was youngest. I didn't 273 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 2: get this because I deserved it or I was good enough. 274 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: I got it because of this particular status that I 275 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: didn't do anything to deserve. I just happened to be 276 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: born last. So it could be that experience too, of 277 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: feeling like I didn't really deserve this kind of being 278 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: put up in this way. 279 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that might be it for me. I mean a 280 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: big part of it because I did have a different 281 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: I do have a different life than where I grew up. 282 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: I do have a different life than my siblings, and 283 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: I've always felt a little guilty about it, Like I've 284 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: always felt like I why me did I? Why am 285 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: I the one that got this life and not that life? 286 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: Yep? Yeah, And I think that can be a real 287 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 2: you know, we talk about that in the first book 288 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: about Survivors Built and this idea that you're surviving something 289 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: or you know, it doesn't have to be something hard, 290 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: but you have a different experience, and that different experience 291 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: is full of success that perhaps that the thoughts are 292 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: perhaps you didn't deserve or why did I get it 293 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: and not everyone get it evenly? Or why did I 294 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: get it? And like this is different from my siblings 295 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: who had a struggle or whatever may be, And so 296 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: there's a bit of a shame about success. So I 297 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: think oftentimes then it's like burying the success because you 298 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: also don't want to make your siblings feel uncomfortable by 299 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: the success or the especially if they're struggling or have struggled, 300 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: and so the success becomes almost kind of covered in 301 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: somewhat of a shame as well, because it's it's not 302 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: something that feels good to talk about or to share 303 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: because it's someone else got something different. 304 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: Right, And it's such a weird position to be in 305 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: because being in the public, being a public figure, and 306 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, being talked about. I always was like, no, 307 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to, don't spotlight me, like, just everybody's equal, 308 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: and look at all the hard work and you know, 309 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: just trying to always make everybody around me feel equal, 310 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: and I just never wanted to stand out. 311 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: Yes, and that's a really common experience, but it's okay. 312 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: Not until very recently did I have someone tell me 313 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: someone that I love say it's okay to be amazing, 314 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: Like it's okay because guess what, we're all amazing in 315 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: our own ways. 316 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, I mean that's why we call the book 317 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 2: to own your greatness and your unstopped bable greatness, because 318 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 2: I do think we do feel a lot of a 319 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 2: shame around our successes because either they're tainted in some way, 320 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 2: or they're imperfect in some way, or they've got some 321 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: baggage connected to them and it affects the way we 322 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: internalize those successes and as a result of that makes 323 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 2: us feel like we can't carry them with us. 324 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: It's so so interesting, And I back to what you 325 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: said before about like I was saying, I kind of 326 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: feel a little embarrassed or shameful talking about it on 327 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: the podcast, but like, that's one of the things that 328 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: I've learned that's so incredible about having a podcast is 329 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: being vulnerable with the audience and the people that love 330 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: me and that are listening and just want to have 331 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: this connection. You know, that vulnerability is what it's like 332 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: the fiber, the tissue that connects us all. And I 333 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: that there's so much comfort in that, Yeah, and so 334 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: much healing, I think. 335 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, and connection and the feeling of like you were 336 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: saying earlier, like community. People feel a sense of community 337 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 2: with you, and you can be vulnerable in it because 338 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: they also are dealing with it and not able to 339 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: share it or not able to share it in these 340 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: kinds of public formats. 341 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: For sure. Yeah. My mom was always very sort of 342 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: like free to be you and me, teaching me a 343 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: lot of different alternative ways of thinking and telling me 344 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: how incredible I was and that I could do anything. 345 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: But I feel like there was also you know, I 346 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: didn't have access to this information. Like I often tell 347 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: my girls, like, wow, you are so light years ahead 348 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: of where I was when I was your age, just 349 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: because of the knowledge that you have access to and 350 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: like the people that you get to listen to, like 351 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: podcasts like and listening to experts like you. 352 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: But I was also going to say, probably also because 353 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: of your parenting, because your parenting gave them the next 354 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 2: generation of what your mom was trying to do. You 355 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: gave them point two oh or point three oh. That 356 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: that's why they also were enlightened to look in this way. 357 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: You know. 358 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: I love that about Yeah, like how your parents tried 359 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: their best. They did their best, and then you learn 360 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: what you learn, and then you go and you try 361 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: to do your best as a parent, and then it 362 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: just gets better and better and better hopefully hopefully. Yeah, Okay, 363 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: So it isn't something that I just have experienced in 364 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: a work environment or situation. It pops up all the time, 365 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: like I was talking about about when I doubt myself 366 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: as a mother sometimes or even as a wife. You know, 367 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: I think that I am not doing a good enough 368 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: job or I have no business even being in a 369 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: relationship sometimes like I'm like, oh, you suck at this. 370 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: But is that just me doubting myself or is that 371 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome or are those the same things? 372 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think oftentimes we talk about it in 373 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: a work context because I think the triggers are probably 374 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: just more like consistent in a work environment because of 375 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: trying new things, you're taking risks other people in the environment, 376 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 2: challenging your performance. Do you think that's where we talk 377 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: about it most often? But it does occur in relationships 378 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 2: because it is it is what we struggle with, right, 379 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 2: And so these kinds of triggers can happen in relationships 380 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 2: as well, parenting, partnering, all kinds of relationships. And so 381 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: I do think one of the things that I see 382 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 2: as a psychologist is when you can work on it 383 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 2: in one area, I see it ripple effect through all 384 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: the other areas. And so it oftentimes people come to 385 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 2: work on it related to work and then they'll say, oh, 386 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 2: my gosh, my relationship with my partner is also shifting. 387 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 2: And the way that I feel in this experienced parenting 388 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: feels different because I do think it's really about shifting 389 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: the way that we see success and the way that 390 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: we see relationships should function, or the way that we 391 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: see that we should be performing, and it really gives us, 392 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: hopefully as we work on it, an idea that like 393 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: everything we like you were saying earlier, everything we do 394 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: is individual. Our way of relating to somebody is individual, 395 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 2: and the kind of relationships I'm going to have with 396 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 2: my partner is not going to be something that I've 397 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: seen before. Is then I'm actually working to evolve over time. 398 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: And so I think it's that perspective, like I'm not 399 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 2: trying to hit some perfection mark, I'm actually just trying 400 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 2: to be good enough, which is what we work on 401 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: when we work on perfectionism. Is the good enough, the 402 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 2: good enough mother, the good enough partner, which really is cringey. 403 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 2: Oftentimes do people experience perfection They want to be perfect, 404 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: but that's not what we're aiming for when we're dealing 405 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 2: with her. 406 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: I want to be my best, like I want to 407 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: be my best? Is that? Is that also? Aka? Good enough? 408 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: Is that good enough as long. 409 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: As you feel like you've attained it right in the past, 410 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: Like if you feel like you've never attained your best 411 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 2: then then this or you attain it so rarely, then 412 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: that might be a level that's a little bit too 413 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: out of reage, right, But if you're experiencing it regularly, yeah, 414 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: then I think it is. It can be the good enough. 415 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: I love that that giving yourself the freedom to say 416 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: good enough is good enough? Yes, in everything that feels good. Yeah, 417 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: I like that. I often hear this conversation more amongst women. 418 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: Is this something that affects women more than men? Would 419 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: you say no? 420 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: While it was initially studied with women in the nineteen seventies, 421 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: it's where the concept originated. In the late nineteen seventies, 422 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 2: it was looked at largely actually only with women for 423 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: about the first ten years of the research, and then 424 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: like in the eighties and the nineties, they begin to 425 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 2: look at men and they see that there are no differences. 426 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 2: There are no statistical differences between men and women who 427 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: experience it. They don't experience it at larger we don't 428 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 2: experience it at larger numbers. 429 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: Why why was it just studied for women? 430 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: I think it was two women's psychologists who were kind 431 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: who were actually were seeing predominantly women in a college setting. 432 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: I just assumed because they were seeing larger women that 433 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 2: it was occurring largely in women. But we do find 434 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 2: too that there are some differences in the ways that 435 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 2: women experience it and men experience it, although they don't 436 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: experience it in different numbers. So for women, we see 437 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: them be counterphobic, so they actually will face the thing 438 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 2: that they fear, and so as a result of that, 439 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: they'll get triggered to experience the imposter center and more often. 440 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: And where men tend to avoid the triggers and tend 441 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: to aim toward mastery, they triend to kind of only 442 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 2: involve themselves in things that make them feel comfortable. So 443 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: as a result, they actually don't push themselves and often 444 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: are underperforming. And so you can it looks a little different, 445 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 2: and it can look a little different in men and women, 446 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 2: and so I think that's why oftentimes we hear that, 447 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: you know, women experience it more often because they're triggered 448 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 2: more often, but they're not having it higher numbers or 449 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: having it in greater magnitude. 450 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: That's so interesting that you're saying that women are triggered 451 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: more often than men. 452 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: Yes, that is a huge statement, because they say they 453 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: face it right Like you're going to do the line. 454 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: You're going to do the fashion line even though you 455 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 2: got triggered. That's homophobia, you know. 456 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got to beat this. I can do this. 457 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah wow, okay, okay, So we talked about that it 458 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: doesn't just show up overnight, although it can, like maybe 459 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 1: somebody that never even knew about imposter syndrome will wake 460 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: up tomorrow and be like, oh my gosh, I think 461 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm having imposter syndrome. 462 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think they identify it, but we often 463 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: see it as almost like people have had it for 464 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 2: a very long time. They just didn't have the words 465 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 2: for it, or they didn't know what it actually was. 466 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 2: Because oftentimes when people say my boss, you know, triggered 467 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: me to have imposter syndrome, it's or my boss gave 468 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 2: me imposter Likely that's not the case. You likely triggering 469 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 2: you and that you're experiencing it, but you've likely been 470 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: experiencing this for a while. 471 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: That is is good to know because I sort of 472 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: felt like I was born with it, you know what, 473 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: even when you struggled with it forever. Yeah, whether it 474 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: was impost labeled as imposter syndrome then or if it 475 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: was just self doubt or lack of confidence, lack of 476 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: self esteem. All of those things are sort of kind 477 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: of dancing. 478 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: They're all correl Yeah, they're all correlated. So in the 479 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 2: research we find that self doubt, self esteem, anxiety, they're 480 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: all correlated to so they have a relationship with imposter syndrome. 481 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: So oftentimes what we when people ask is self doubt 482 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: imposter syndrome. No, it is that you're experiencing what we 483 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: call it constellation of things. You're experiencing the self doubt, 484 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 2: the experience of being a fraud, the overestimating others, undermestinating yourselves, 485 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 2: the perfectionism. So you're the cycle of imposters. You're experiencing 486 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: a bunch of things besides a self doubt that that 487 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 2: ring true for you. 488 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: Wow, that sounds like it could be debilitating kind of 489 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: all those things that constellation you just dont yes. 490 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially if you're in the self sabotage cycle, 491 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: you know, and you're kind of it can be particularly 492 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: debilitating because you often feel like there are not a 493 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: lot of successes because you're sabotaging yourself a lot. But 494 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 2: even in the overwork cycle, you're often experiencing burnout, So 495 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 2: that can be also debilitating. 496 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: I think when you talk, we were talking about being 497 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: vulnerable and just talking about it and how that is 498 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: such a huge sort of opening to mastering it. I 499 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: feel like that is the case with everything, because for me, 500 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: I know that there have been so many years where 501 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: I've been trapped in here with all of these thoughts, 502 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: whether they were good thoughts or bad thoughts. I honestly 503 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: there have been times when I've thought I've told my 504 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: partner something, but I haven't told them anything at all. 505 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: It was just happening inside my head. I thought I 506 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: told them. But so just like talking about it freely 507 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: and openly and discussing it, it really does sort of 508 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: like demystify it, destigmatize it, and sort of make it 509 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more digestible, a little bit more easier 510 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: to handle, yeah, and cope. 511 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: With, because the shame in the dark corners is dangerous. 512 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: Like when a psychologistm we're trained and they often tall 513 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 2: shame is the most dangerous of emotions because it is 514 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 2: the hardest one to kind of like, you know, then 515 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 2: deal with and get to the other side. And so 516 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: in revealing it, it helps reduce the shame you know, 517 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: around it. The stigmas is around it where we can 518 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 2: be a community that can say I struggle with imposter 519 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: syndrome and like you know, you say, you know, I'm 520 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 2: going to choose something different, Like there are behaviors you 521 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: can choose that don't have to get you caught in 522 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: the cycle consistently. 523 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: And so talk to me about that. Talk to me 524 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: about what can we do to beat imposter syndrome, Like 525 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: what are the steps? Tell me one by one, I 526 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: need sure. 527 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: So the first one we talked about, which is like 528 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 2: understanding where it came from. So I do think it 529 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 2: can be the hardest step in the sense of you've 530 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: got to go look in the dark corners of your 531 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: early childhood experiences, which can be painful, but I think 532 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 2: so important to figure out how did this come to 533 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: be the way it is? And so that is a 534 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: piece of it. We talk about the family dynamics that 535 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 2: are common, codependence, narcissism, particular roles. There are all kinds 536 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: of things that kind of get us started in this. 537 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: Is that what they call the work? 538 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: Yes, it is, it is work. Yeah, you got to 539 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 2: do the work. It is that hard work, but it 540 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 2: is it is so worth it because you know, as 541 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: a result of doing the work, you can instead see 542 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 2: the thing come as opposed to be blindsided by the thing. 543 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 2: And so I think it is so important because you 544 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 2: get to see what are your vulnerabilities, what are your 545 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 2: triggers are, what are the things that you're commonly caught 546 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 2: with because of that early experience you know? 547 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, so when you start talking about it, 548 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: you know what it is. So like you said, it 549 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: doesn't blindside you. You see it coming. 550 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 2: You see it coming. That's good. 551 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the first step. 552 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 2: Okay, that's the first and the second step is then 553 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: sort of understanding your trigger. So understanding the kinds of 554 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 2: things that you know get you triggered. So you were 555 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: talking earlier about a new experience, so new things get 556 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 2: us trigger it. Also, things like, you know, making a 557 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 2: mistake can get us triggered. Things like you know, feeling 558 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: rusty at something something you haven't done in a while 559 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: can get you triggered. Things that are complex and have 560 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: a lot of steps where you can go wrong can 561 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: get you triggered. So getting to understand your particular triggers. 562 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 2: Public speaking can be a trigger. So what are the 563 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: things that make you feel vulnerable and kind of fraudulent 564 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 2: or that you're going to be exposed, you know, so 565 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 2: understanding them so you can have a lay of the 566 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 2: land of your triggers and then sort of talking about 567 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: your narrative. What are the things that you're telling yourself. 568 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 2: So when you were talking about, you know, saying these 569 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: things to yourself, like why would they choose me? And 570 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: I don't know anything about fashion or paraphrasing, you know, 571 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 2: these are the narratives the beginnings of the narratives that 572 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 2: we're telling ourselves is that I'm unqualified to do this. Well, well, 573 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: what about the reasons why they asked you? Those didn't 574 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 2: even come up, you know, what are the reasons why 575 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: they asked you? You know, to really dig into them 576 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 2: and to really understand, you know, the narrative that we're 577 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: telling ourselves. It's that's sort of underlying this idea that 578 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: I am a fraud, I don't belong, this isn't good 579 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 2: you know, this isn't good enough. You know, So really 580 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: working on that narrative piece how we talk about ourselves 581 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: to ourselves and how we talk about ourselves to others, 582 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: and making sure that those narratives are accurate, that they're 583 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: that they are reality based that they can be tested, 584 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: and then also too that they're positive in some way 585 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: about our skills, accomplishments, the things that we've done. 586 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,719 Speaker 1: That's so cool because doctor Raymond also taught me this 587 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: thing where you where you ask yourself and you have 588 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: like a negative thought, You ask yourself is it true? 589 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: And then you're you're like, well, kind of it feels 590 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: true to me right now, And then you ask yourself 591 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: is it absolutely true? Like without a shadow of a doubt, 592 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: And then you kind of have to be honest and say, well, no, 593 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: not really. I'm kind of just sort of assuming that 594 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: or just regressing to that familiar behavior because I know 595 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: how to handle that. 596 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: Yes. And that is another step which is dealing with 597 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 2: the automatic negative thoughts, which is asking is it true? 598 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 2: Where is the data? Like where can I actually prove 599 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: that I'm stupid or incapable or you know, not good enough? 600 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: Where's that data? And then also too, are there other 601 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: people who believe that data? Like can I go around 602 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 2: and you know, ask other people do they think I 603 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: shouldn't do this because I'm just not capable, you know? 604 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: And where's that data? And if there's different data, how 605 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: do we take that data in. If you talk to 606 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: someone and you ask them should I do this line? 607 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: And then they say to you, of course you should, 608 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: like you'd be amazing, and you go blow them off 609 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 2: off You're not trying to actually hear that data. 610 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what happens. You listen to all the negative comments. 611 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 2: Yes, and you blow them up. Yeah. 612 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: You can have like one hundred great things said about you, 613 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: and then that one person that says something negative, you 614 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: like latch onto that. 615 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, because you're looking for confirmatory bias. You're looking 616 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: for someone to confirm the negative narrative. And you really 617 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 2: have to think about data. Did ninety nine percent of 618 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: the people say yes, you should do this? And then 619 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 2: the one percent that's in the minority, And then you 620 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: need to push that aside because that's not necessarily what 621 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: you're hearing from most people. So really challenging the automatic 622 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: negative thoughts. We also talk about categorizing the negative thoughts 623 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: because it helps to externalize them and not see them 624 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: as a part of you, but to see them as external. Okay, 625 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: so like you know, being able to classify, like you know, 626 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: everyone thinks I shouldn't do this, right, it's a mind 627 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: reading ant, or it's in order of thinking about what's 628 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 2: going to happen. It's going to be a disaster, it's 629 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 2: going to fail, a catastrophizing ant. So being able to 630 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: label the ants because it helps you then see them 631 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: as external to you and not a part of you, 632 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: and then coming up with a positive, accurate narrative like 633 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 2: I was asked to do this line because I'm competent 634 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,719 Speaker 2: and capable. They thought I would be a great spokesporers. 635 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 2: You know that you kind of find the actual truth 636 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: and the narrative about why you're being asked to do this, 637 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,959 Speaker 2: and it may not be that expertise person that you thought, 638 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 2: you know, it might be some other expertise that you 639 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 2: need to claim, so challenging the answer is one of them. Also, 640 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 2: oftentimes when we have imposter syndrome, we're really bad at 641 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: self care and so really making sure that our self 642 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: care is embedded in our lives and so making sure 643 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: that we're taking care of like we talk about, you know, 644 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 2: the three buckets of self care, so like your physical 645 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: self care, how you take care of your body and 646 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 2: release tension within your body. And so we often say 647 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: the issues are in the tissues. So like how do 648 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: you then you know, kind of release the negative stuff 649 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: that's going on, you're buy the tension. The reflective self 650 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: care like how are you actually you know, thinking about like, 651 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: you know, how you stay present and focused on the 652 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 2: moment and the issues that are happening in the moment, 653 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: things like mindfulness, gratitude, exercises, spirituality, things like that. And 654 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: then sort of the processing kind of bucket, like how 655 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: are you processing this information through a therapist, a coach, 656 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 2: other plate, a mentor you know, friends, how are you 657 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 2: processing the information and problem solving some of the information 658 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 2: that's coming towards you in your self care? And clearly 659 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: you can do other things, but I think it's really 660 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: those are our fundamental buckets. And then thinking about how 661 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 2: self care is embedded to take care of you in 662 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 2: your process and not just something that happens when you 663 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 2: have time. 664 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: Yes, it's so important. Oh my god, I love these 665 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: These are very easy, doable tips for people. 666 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and all research based, all research fact you know 667 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: that can help you reduce your imposter syndrome in a 668 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: day to day way, in a very easy day to 669 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 2: day way. 670 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: And even just talking about it and asking yourself ooh, 671 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: I'm feeling these negative thoughts, I'm recognizing them. What is that? 672 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: Where is it coming from? Yeah? Could that be impostors syndrome? 673 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: How do I handle that differently than if I just 674 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: just latch onto it, believe it. 675 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, and sink it to the spiral? Like, what might 676 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 2: I do differently? We talk about breaking the cycle? Is 677 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: there a way to kind of challenge the thought? Is 678 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 2: there a way instead of self sabotaging to like lean 679 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 2: into this in a healthy way instead of overworking? Kid, 680 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 2: we do this, you know, in a thoughtful, planful, mindful 681 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 2: way that doesn't drain us. Yeah? Yeah, how do we 682 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 2: take in positive feedback? 683 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: I like to self soothe sometimes, and I try to 684 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 1: teach this to my daughter too, Like to think about 685 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: little Jenny, like my little girl inside of me. You 686 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: think about little Lisa and like discomfort her and say 687 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: it's okay, Everything is going to be okay. You don't 688 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: need to get so worked up about this? 689 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like what does she need? How can you comfort her? 690 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 2: What can you give to her that she's not getting? 691 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 2: But yes, I love We talked about the inner child 692 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: stuff all the time. We love the inner child stuff. 693 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I could talk about the inner child. 694 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 1: When I'm feeling imposter syndromey, Should I tell like my family, 695 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: should I tell my partner? Should I let people in 696 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: on the dark places? 697 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah, because that's also part of the steps is 698 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 2: to kind of really be able to tell other people 699 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 2: and to have them be able to you know, comfort 700 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 2: you and also potentially provide some level of support. And 701 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 2: I think oftentimes we have to kind of sometimes tell 702 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 2: them the kind of support we may need or they 703 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 2: have to be culture to that because sometimes the idea 704 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 2: of like get over it really hurts us because it's 705 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 2: not that easy to get over. It takes work, you 706 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 2: know that. You know, while we talk about these steps 707 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 2: and they feel really easy, actually executing them is effort 708 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 2: and work and takes a lot of consistent, you know 709 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: work to kind of regroove these thinkings. So I do think, 710 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: you know, helping to educate our partners, our children, and 711 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 2: our family and about the kinds of responses that are 712 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 2: actually helpful for us and the ones that are not 713 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: can be very helpful in the way that they respond 714 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: to us. 715 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: Okay, that is good information. I do want to ask 716 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: you imposter syndrome, you know how like this is a 717 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: terrible analogy. But like Brussels sprouts had their moment, you know, 718 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: everybody wanted to eat the Brussels sprouts. And now, thank god, yeah, 719 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: menopause is having it's you know day and the sun. 720 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: Thank god, everyone's talking about it. Do you hear people saying, oh, 721 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome is just a buzz topic, and of course 722 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: everybody's just going to jump on the bandwagon and talk 723 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: about it because they want to seem relevant. 724 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 2: Yes, I hear it all the time, and it's really 725 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 2: aggravating frank that, like, you know, we've been working on 726 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 2: this research as social scientists for like forty years, like 727 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 2: and I think it's become really popularized by people like 728 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 2: Michelle Obama and other people who started talking about it 729 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 2: about their experience of it. That I think the people 730 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 2: thought it was like a buzz term, but it's not 731 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 2: a buzz term. It's actually really well researched, like phenomenon. 732 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 2: The American Psychological Association just came out with an edited 733 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 2: volume this year on it. It's not a it's not 734 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: a fly by night concept, and I hope it doesn't 735 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 2: get seen as such because I do feel like, finally, 736 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: like the buzz piece has been helpful, so finally we 737 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 2: can talk about it, and finally we can provide people 738 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 2: like accurate interventions and solutions to deal with it. But 739 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 2: I do think, like I worry that it eventually will 740 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 2: be considered buzzy and it will go away, which will 741 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 2: make me deeply saddened by the people who don't get 742 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 2: the help that they need to kind of be on 743 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 2: the other side of it. 744 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: Well, we will keep it alive, we will keep it buzzing. 745 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 2: I'm talking about it. Yes, yes, okay. 746 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: I like to do this with everybody that comes on 747 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 1: the show. Can you please tell us what was your 748 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: last I choose. 749 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: Me moment when I got my nails done. I always 750 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: get my nails done. I have I have like you 751 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: can fair owls. 752 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: That is so neat. 753 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 2: Oh. I love a good man of Karen more than anything. 754 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: So so carving out the time for your. 755 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: Because it's multiple hours, it's not an hour long. 756 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: That is a good one because people just kind of 757 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: don't think of the little things like that. 758 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's and for me, it's deeper than that. 759 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 2: Like I'm a nail bier, so like for me to 760 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 2: do like my nails is a really about kind of 761 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: finding other ways to soothe my anxiety besides nail biting, 762 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 2: and finding some way to kind of do something healthy 763 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 2: and pausitive for myself. 764 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: So I know, I have a daughter who's a nail 765 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,240 Speaker 1: bier and she loves to get her nails done also, 766 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,240 Speaker 1: and it also just sort of lifts her self esteem, yeah, 767 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: to be able to look at her nails and think, 768 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: look how pretty they look instead of like how bloody. 769 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 2: It's been bad. It's been dark days with the nail fighting. 770 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: Oh I love that get your nails done perfect. I 771 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: choose me moment. Thank you so much doctor Lisa for 772 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: joining us today. And I'm so glad that you were 773 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: able to share all of your knowledge with everybody. And 774 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: it is a real thing, and I think that if 775 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: we're being honest, probably all of us have felt it 776 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: at some point, and it's just nice to talk about 777 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: it openly, to take away the shame and embarrassment around 778 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 1: it and just give it some air, you know, Yes, 779 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: So thank you. 780 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 2: You're so welcome. 781 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: That conversation was so personal to me, and I want 782 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: to thank doctor Lisa for joining me and listening to me. 783 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,919 Speaker 1: I've been internally dealing with this and it feels really 784 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: good to let this imposter syndrome secret out. As we 785 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: continue to choose ourselves each week, I want to challenge 786 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: you to something new. I talked about soothing my inner 787 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 1: child with doctor Lisa, and I want you to do 788 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,720 Speaker 1: that now. I want you to think of your younger self, 789 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: Visualize that little young version of you, and I want 790 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: you to give little you a hug and tell them 791 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: that you love them and that everything is going to 792 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: be okay. Sometimes we are holding off on subconsciously to 793 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: fear or trauma that we experienced as children, so we 794 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: need to be gentle and love that version of ourselves. 795 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to I Choose Me. You can check 796 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: out all the social links in our show notes and 797 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: make sure to follow, rate and review the podcast, and 798 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: use the hashtag I Choose Me. I'll be right here 799 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: next week. I hope you choose to come back to