1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,800 Kerry Docherty: Welcome back to she Pivots. I'm Kerry Docherty. 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: Welcome back to she Pivots, the podcast where women share 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: bold career moves and personal turning points that changed everything. 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:30,639 Emily Tisch Sussman: I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. What does it mean 5 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:36,519 Emily Tisch Sussman: to be selfish? To feel totally radical, uncomfortable, and know 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: that putting your needs first will have real consequences. Today's 7 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: guest has spent years sitting with that question, and the 8 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: answer she arrived at became a personal and professional reckoning, 9 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: a pivot into sharing her own vulnerability, leaving out none 10 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: of the details. Kerry Docherty is the co founder and Chief 11 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: Impact Officer of Faherty Brand, the beloved B-corp clothing company 12 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: known for its coastal vibes and commitment sustainability. She didn't 13 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: start there, though. She worked as a human rights lawyer, 14 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: a mindfulness business owner, a children's book author, and now 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:13,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: she's a memoirist. Her debut memoir, Selfish, Unlearning, Reclaiming and 16 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: Telling the Truth just came out this week and I 17 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,759 Emily Tisch Sussman: could not put it down. It is brutally honest, complicated, 18 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: and one of the most courageous things I've ever read, 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: in part because the people closest to Kerry didn't want 20 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,039 Emily Tisch Sussman: her to publish it, and she did it anyway, and 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,759 Emily Tisch Sussman: there have been real consequences for that. Kerry's pathway wines 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: from Buffalo to Yale, to Thailand, to law school, to 23 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: a beast trailer selling swimsuits, to a business that nearly 24 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: consumed her marriage, and a marriage that nearly consumed her 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: sense of self. Today we talk about complicated family business dynamics, 26 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: struggles with motherhood, and her own affair. Kerry isn't holding 27 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: back anymore. This is Kerry Dougherty, and this is how 28 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: she pivots. What is your name and what do you do? 29 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,520 Kerry Docherty: My name is Kerry Docherty. I'm a co founder of 30 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,360 Kerry Docherty: Faherty Brand and an author. 31 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: We're going to go and crown a logical order. Okay, 32 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: so we're going to go all the way back, right, 33 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: So tell us about little Kerry. Tell us about being 34 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: from Buffalo. Very formative. Yeah, thanking to you, like, what 35 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: was your family like? What were you like? 36 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,840 Kerry Docherty: Always say I love being from Buffalo because the second 37 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,000 Kerry Docherty: I share with someone where I'm from, they instantly like 38 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,519 Kerry Docherty: me more because they feel bad for me. They're like Buffalo, 39 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,840 Kerry Docherty: They're like great oppressing city. I'm like, yes, and it 40 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,120 Kerry Docherty: was the best place to grow up, great community. Lived 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,040 Kerry Docherty: on the shores of Lake Erie. Loved looking for sea 42 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,960 Kerry Docherty: glass and dead seagulls. As a child, I grew up 43 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,840 Kerry Docherty: in a very quintessential Americana suburban home. Middle child, happy 44 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,040 Kerry Docherty: go lucky, middle child who was always fine. 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: Even as a kid. Kerry was two things at once, 46 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: the cheerful, good girl the world saw, and something quieter 47 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: and more complicate underneath. That tension never really went away. 48 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,080 Kerry Docherty: And I had a beautiful childhood. And I noticed at 49 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,600 Kerry Docherty: a young age I'm a Gemini. So I didn't know 50 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,800 Kerry Docherty: that as a kid, but I noticed at a young age 51 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:21,280 Kerry Docherty: often felt split in two. I was the good, obedient child, happy, 52 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,800 Kerry Docherty: go lucky, sunshiny, and then a part of me was 53 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,680 Kerry Docherty: like deeply morbid and felt separate from the world. I 54 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,720 Kerry Docherty: started writing my own obituaries at a young age. I 55 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,399 Kerry Docherty: wrote a poem I think when I was eleven, called 56 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,640 Kerry Docherty: alone in a prison cell. Hello, like I could not 57 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,800 Kerry Docherty: have been or white, privileged and stable. But there was 58 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,720 Kerry Docherty: a part of me that was always deeply interested in 59 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,040 Kerry Docherty: suffering other people suffering, and then trying to excavate that 60 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,320 Kerry Docherty: in my own self. I loved ghost stories, I loved pranks, 61 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:52,760 Kerry Docherty: and I explore some of that in my book. 62 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, had you seen examples of it as a kid 63 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: that you were like, oh, interested? Or it just it 64 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: was like a little more theoretical for you. 65 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,600 Kerry Docherty: It was more theoretical for me. I grew up Catholic, 66 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,360 Kerry Docherty: you know, say your prayers at night, and instead of praying, 67 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,400 Kerry Docherty: I would just start to inventory the list of everyone 68 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,440 Kerry Docherty: I knew who died. There was an obsession with death 69 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,280 Kerry Docherty: that I had at a young age which didn't seem 70 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,040 Kerry Docherty: correlated to my upbringing. 71 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, and your family was a little locked up in 72 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: the way that you guys communicated, right. 73 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,960 Kerry Docherty: We were locked up in the sense that I learned 74 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,919 Kerry Docherty: at a young age there were certain things you didn't 75 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,000 Kerry Docherty: share with the world, And I think that's very common 76 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,920 Kerry Docherty: for my parents' generation, but it was definitely something I 77 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,480 Kerry Docherty: now have pendulum swing. I am too, am I I 78 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,000 Kerry Docherty: wrote a book about all the things, But there were 79 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,800 Kerry Docherty: certain things that were happening in our home where I 80 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,440 Kerry Docherty: started to categorize, Oh, these are things that are not 81 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,040 Kerry Docherty: meant to be shared publicly. And is that because of 82 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,760 Kerry Docherty: privacy or is that because of shame? And where is 83 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:57,440 Kerry Docherty: where is that line. Yeah, things like mental health, struggles, sickness. 84 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,760 Kerry Docherty: You know, my dad had cancer and didn't tell us. 85 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,440 Kerry Docherty: We didn't know till ten years after the fact when 86 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,640 Kerry Docherty: my sister read my mom's journal. I think, with my 87 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,200 Kerry Docherty: mom's permission, And so that was something that I grew 88 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,200 Kerry Docherty: up thinking. Huh, I guess there's just certain things that 89 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:11,479 Kerry Docherty: we should keep secret. 90 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: And did you follow that like as a kid, as 91 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: a teenager when you went into college, Like, did you 92 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: follow that pattern of keeping things very private or were 93 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: you sort of like pushing the boundaries of being open 94 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:24,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: with things that fell Like. 95 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,960 Kerry Docherty: I was being most private for the most part because 96 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,760 Kerry Docherty: I was a good, obedient child, and I was very 97 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,720 Kerry Docherty: groomed not just by my parents but by society as 98 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,840 Kerry Docherty: general to be a high achieving good girl. You know, 99 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,880 Kerry Docherty: I was an athlete. I got recruited to play lacrosse 100 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,080 Kerry Docherty: at Yale, and I entered like a type a virgin 101 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,640 Kerry Docherty: who was just ready to tackle the world. I didn't 102 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,719 Kerry Docherty: know what my needs were. I didn't know how my 103 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,120 Kerry Docherty: body felt, I didn't know how things necessarily made me feel. 104 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,920 Kerry Docherty: I was very achievement success driven. 105 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,039 Emily Tisch Sussman: So did you have a vision of what being a 106 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: grown up would look like like if you if you 107 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: were success driven, were you like, I go to Yale 108 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: because then I get this degree, and then I do this, 109 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: And yes, I go to Yale. 110 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,720 Kerry Docherty: I play sports, I do well at sports. Then I'll 111 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,279 Kerry Docherty: apply to law school. I dreams about being in the FBI. 112 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,640 Kerry Docherty: I think partially because of my obsession with morbidity. I 113 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,159 Kerry Docherty: wrote my college thesis on assessing the credibility of psychopaths. 114 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,320 Kerry Docherty: Like I was very interested in the legal plus criminal profiling. 115 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,360 Kerry Docherty: And then I'll have a stable career and then I'll 116 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,120 Kerry Docherty: get married at age of twenty eight, and then I'll 117 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,520 Kerry Docherty: have two kids and da da da da da da da, 118 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,039 Kerry Docherty: Like it was very ladder focused. And then I would 119 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,720 Kerry Docherty: have a minivan with two kids, and you know, I 120 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,440 Kerry Docherty: felt like it was it was very unimaginative. 121 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: Did you think that you would continue to work? Was 122 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: that your vision because your mom didn't work as right 123 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:47,599 Emily Tisch Sussman: at the home? 124 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,160 Kerry Docherty: Right? I think I did. I always knew that I 125 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,359 Kerry Docherty: won an identity beyond just being a mom, although I 126 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,240 Kerry Docherty: don't think it was until later in my marriage that 127 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,279 Kerry Docherty: I really was confronted like what those roles mean and 128 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:02,760 Kerry Docherty: how do I feel in these roles? 129 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: But did you always think that you would be a mom. Yes, Yes, 130 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:06,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: that was clear to you. 131 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,880 Kerry Docherty: Yes, But I don't know if I even questioned if 132 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,160 Kerry Docherty: I wanted to as much as like, this is just 133 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:12,920 Kerry Docherty: why you're spoke, this is the timeline. 134 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, I actually feel exactly the same way about that piece. 135 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:16,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: Like I think if I was like five or ten 136 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: years younger, I think I might have questioned if I 137 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: actually wanted it or not. Yeah, but it was just 138 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: what I was supposed to do, right, and then had 139 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: a lot of difficulty once I did. But well, we'll 140 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:27,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: get to that. 141 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,400 Kerry Docherty: I love your I love because i've heard you talk about. 142 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,240 Kerry Docherty: I love your honesty around it because I do think 143 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:32,840 Kerry Docherty: it's something that needs to be discussed. 144 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, I think that the way that we both talk 145 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: about like the beginning of that loss of identity as 146 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: that I read in your book I very heavily identified with, 147 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: Like I didn't really think this through. Yes, Kerry had 148 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: a plan Yale law school, the FBI, marriage to twenty 149 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: eight stable career, two kids, and for a while she 150 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: followed it almost exactly, but a year in Thailand and 151 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: a folding chair mindfulness class in Los Angeles had other ideas. 152 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: So you had this vision that you were going to 153 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: go to Yale, be an athlete, go to the law school, 154 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: go to the FBI. How did that work out? So 155 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:14,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: did all that. 156 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,760 Kerry Docherty: I met my husband the first day of college, so 157 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,880 Kerry Docherty: he became my college sweetheart. We broke up a little 158 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,400 Kerry Docherty: bit when I went to Pepperdine School of Law. Before 159 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,640 Kerry Docherty: I went to Pepperdine School of Law, took a year 160 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,920 Kerry Docherty: off and I spent some of it in Thailand, where 161 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,280 Kerry Docherty: I was working in a home for sexually abuse girls. 162 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:34,280 Kerry Docherty: And that really shifted my career focus to doing something 163 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,000 Kerry Docherty: around the FBI versus getting more into social justice and 164 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,720 Kerry Docherty: human rights, which is how do we protect vulnerable people 165 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,200 Kerry Docherty: and advocate for them in the legal system. And so 166 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,720 Kerry Docherty: when I went into law school, I went in with 167 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,400 Kerry Docherty: that lens. And then when I was in law school, 168 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,320 Kerry Docherty: in order just to deal with the stress about some 169 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,400 Kerry Docherty: of the suffering which I saw in the human rights world, 170 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,439 Kerry Docherty: just the suffering of communities who don't have resources, started 171 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:05,040 Kerry Docherty: taking mindfulness classes at UCLA's Mindful Awareness Research Center, and 172 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,000 Kerry Docherty: that was a huge pivot for me too. It was 173 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,640 Kerry Docherty: the first time I really started to prioritize my own 174 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,000 Kerry Docherty: mental health and to become aware of how feelings felt 175 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:13,840 Kerry Docherty: in my body. 176 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: Could you extrapolate out a little bit? I'm like, what 177 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: is mindfulness? What were you literally doing? Yes? And what 178 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: does mindfulness mean to you? 179 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,520 Kerry Docherty: I was literally going to a classroom with twelve folding 180 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,200 Kerry Docherty: chairs in a circle and paying attention to my breath 181 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,320 Kerry Docherty: and noticing what the inhal felt like and the ex 182 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,079 Kerry Docherty: health felt like, and then in that starting to pay 183 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,360 Kerry Docherty: attention to my body, starting to pay attention to my mind, 184 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:49,520 Kerry Docherty: starting to create categories of thinking in my mind, judging, labeling, distracting, wandering, 185 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,680 Kerry Docherty: and through that I started to ask myself questions that 186 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,840 Kerry Docherty: I had never asked before, which is what am I feeling? 187 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,120 Kerry Docherty: And how do I know? Where do I feel that? 188 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:04,520 Kerry Docherty: In my body? Coming acutely aware of sensation And it's 189 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,199 Kerry Docherty: so simple, but when you grow up not actually knowing 190 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,680 Kerry Docherty: how you feel and learning basic simple tools of breathing 191 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,840 Kerry Docherty: to calm down your regulatory system, it was such a 192 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,160 Kerry Docherty: gift for me to feel like I had some sort 193 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,880 Kerry Docherty: of internal resource that could help calm myself down. 194 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: That must have been a major shift for you to 195 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: start thinking why do I have these thoughts versus shove 196 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: them back down like that must have been pretty big. 197 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: As you're describing this, I feel like in law school 198 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: I was mostly not thinking or feeling anything. Yes, I 199 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,679 Emily Tisch Sussman: was just consumed by the worst, yes for better or 200 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: for worse. But I can't imagine having this like big 201 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: revelation about yourself while also going through law school at 202 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: the same time. Is it almost like the amount of 203 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: the work allowed you to like only have this like 204 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: one path of thinking about yourself. 205 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,000 Kerry Docherty: I understand why people shut down their bodies and brains 206 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,520 Kerry Docherty: in order to succeed. It's not efficient to feel your 207 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,080 Kerry Docherty: feelings sometimes because it makes you reevaluate your decisions and 208 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,360 Kerry Docherty: how you're operating your life, and it makes you slow 209 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,880 Kerry Docherty: down in a way that might be anti productive. But 210 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:13,640 Kerry Docherty: that's what I did. 211 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, so did that ended up changing your perspective in 212 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: law school about what you would do, like with the 213 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:21,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: degree after, or like what you would do with your 214 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:22,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: life after. 215 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,920 Kerry Docherty: I clerked for a judge for two years, and she 216 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,800 Kerry Docherty: was a federal judge in the Eastern District of New York. 217 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,000 Kerry Docherty: There's a progressive program that works with younger defendants and 218 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,040 Kerry Docherty: drops their criminal charges against them. They're non violent criminal 219 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,280 Kerry Docherty: charges if they engage in a more holistic rehabilitation program, 220 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,000 Kerry Docherty: and so my judge knew that I had done mindfulness 221 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,240 Kerry Docherty: in law school, and she used to send me out 222 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,560 Kerry Docherty: before the hearings, like, hey, will you work with these 223 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,120 Kerry Docherty: kids and do some of your mindfulness exercises, And it 224 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,040 Kerry Docherty: was the first time I was like, Oh, this is interesting. 225 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,240 Kerry Docherty: I can actually incorporate this skill set into what I'm 226 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,720 Kerry Docherty: doing legally. And then from there I started to continuing 227 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,720 Kerry Docherty: legal education classes of mindfulness for lawyers. Then I started 228 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,640 Kerry Docherty: getting some tutoring clients, and by the time my clerkship ended, 229 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,320 Kerry Docherty: I basically had a mindfulness business, which I never would 230 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,480 Kerry Docherty: have thought I would have gone into. And this was 231 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,960 Kerry Docherty: really like before mindfulness was so ubiquitous in the market, 232 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,760 Kerry Docherty: what year twenty eleven to twenty twelve, So this mindfulness 233 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,200 Kerry Docherty: business essentially fell into my lap and I was doing that, 234 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,120 Kerry Docherty: and then Verity brand kind of came to fruition. 235 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: And you would had like some personal like not just 236 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,599 Emily Tisch Sussman: like a professional but like some personal evolution along the 237 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: way where you took a break from your college boyfriend. 238 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: Did it feel connected to you that you were like, Oh, 239 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: I'm learning things about myself and maybe I'll try a 240 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:42,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: new boyfriend. 241 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,760 Kerry Docherty: One hundred percent. Alex and I we were college sweethearts. 242 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,599 Kerry Docherty: He stayed in New York City, I was in California, 243 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,199 Kerry Docherty: and I started dating someone who was exactly the opposite 244 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:59,600 Kerry Docherty: of Alex. He was a Christian, Texas somewhat conservative man, 245 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,720 Kerry Docherty: and I was a liberal, irreligious, secular, woke woman. But 246 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,520 Kerry Docherty: having that type of relationship was so eye opening to me, 247 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,120 Kerry Docherty: Like it was very passionate. We fought, We thought about God. 248 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,280 Kerry Docherty: I had never had a partner where I would like 249 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,720 Kerry Docherty: stay awake at night arguing about God. It was also 250 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,560 Kerry Docherty: an example of for me on falling in love with 251 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,640 Kerry Docherty: different types of people and having that opportunity, not even 252 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,560 Kerry Docherty: just with my law school boyfriend, but with friends who 253 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,600 Kerry Docherty: believed things that I didn't believe in. I had never 254 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,760 Kerry Docherty: been exposed to people who didn't believe the same things 255 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,240 Kerry Docherty: as me, even in college. I feel like it was 256 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,120 Kerry Docherty: a very everyone kind of agreed on the same thing, 257 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,080 Kerry Docherty: and so that was a fascinating exercise too. Oh wow, 258 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:42,760 Kerry Docherty: I can love you and we can disagree. 259 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: I think most adults are still struggling with that. 260 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,280 Kerry Docherty: One hundred percent. So I fell in love with people 261 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,960 Kerry Docherty: before I knew what they believed in. And Pepperdine is 262 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,840 Kerry Docherty: a more religious school, and so that was my community, 263 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,480 Kerry Docherty: and I didn't necessarily know how people felt about certain things. 264 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,560 Kerry Docherty: A lot of my friends at the time did not 265 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,160 Kerry Docherty: believe in the right to gay marriage. My sister's gay 266 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,720 Kerry Docherty: has a queer now trans partner, and when I found 267 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,400 Kerry Docherty: out that they didn't believe in the right for gay 268 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,080 Kerry Docherty: couples to marry, I couldn't believe it. I was like, 269 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,000 Kerry Docherty: I've heard about people like you, but I've never met 270 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,880 Kerry Docherty: someone like you. Yeah, and also I love you, and 271 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:24,239 Kerry Docherty: how do I reconcile this? So I started hosting forums 272 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,880 Kerry Docherty: at our school around the right to gay marriage, and 273 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,520 Kerry Docherty: I founded a chapter of the ACLU at Pepperdine because 274 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,360 Kerry Docherty: I don't allow gay student organizations. And I wouldn't say 275 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,240 Kerry Docherty: I convinced a lot of people, but I felt better 276 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:37,520 Kerry Docherty: about doing it. 277 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: Was that your goal to convince them. 278 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,560 Kerry Docherty: I just wanted to invite in a little bit more 279 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,400 Kerry Docherty: humanity of like what is the power of seeing people 280 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,600 Kerry Docherty: share their stories about what it's like to be them 281 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:50,600 Kerry Docherty: and what it's like to be a queer couple and 282 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,000 Kerry Docherty: want to marry not be able to. I was more 283 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,400 Kerry Docherty: interested in those discussions than I was about the constitutional 284 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,920 Kerry Docherty: right to marry or what the Bible says above it 285 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,240 Kerry Docherty: gay people like. That type of conversation for me is uninteresting. 286 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,560 Kerry Docherty: I've heard it a thousand times. But what if we 287 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,720 Kerry Docherty: got together and shared this is what it's like to 288 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,560 Kerry Docherty: be me, this is what brings me pain. This is 289 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,480 Kerry Docherty: what my imagination for the future is. You have been 290 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,920 Kerry Docherty: ahead of the curve on a lot of things, maybe 291 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,720 Kerry Docherty: behead and some and behind another's. 292 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:25,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: You're not after her clerkship. Kerry unexpectedly built a mindfulness business. 293 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: Then her husband Alex and his twin brother Mike came 294 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: to her with something else entirely. When we come back, 295 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: Kerry tells us what it actually looked like to say 296 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: yes to charity and what they all gave up to 297 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:55,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: make it work. Stay tuned. So you finish your clerkship, 298 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: you have this mindfulness business that then leads into the 299 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: founding of charity. You had spent your entire life thinking 300 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: that you would be in law. Did you have to 301 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: like mentally close that chapter? Like did you have grief 302 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: around the end of the law, Like what was that 303 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:11,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: revelation like for you? 304 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,120 Kerry Docherty: There was no grief to the end of the law 305 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,200 Kerry Docherty: because law is still an intricate part of my job 306 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,520 Kerry Docherty: even yesterday, you know, meeting with lawyers around a lot 307 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,840 Kerry Docherty: of different things at charity, whether it's employment contracts, intellectual 308 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,520 Kerry Docherty: property leases. Whether I like it or not, I'm still 309 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,760 Kerry Docherty: involved in that part, but not with either like the 310 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,200 Kerry Docherty: FBI or the social justice work. Like was that hard 311 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:35,960 Kerry Docherty: for you to let go of? 312 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:37,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: It was? 313 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,840 Kerry Docherty: I tried to infuse my passion for it into Charity 314 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,640 Kerry Docherty: in other ways, which is, who are we partnering, what 315 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,120 Kerry Docherty: type of factories are we using, who are community ambassadors 316 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,960 Kerry Docherty: we're choosing, and what are our values around these type 317 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,640 Kerry Docherty: of things that we can incorporate into the brand. So 318 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,840 Kerry Docherty: it wasn't literal social justice work, but the desire for 319 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,080 Kerry Docherty: change I tried to infuse into the brand. 320 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: Those are pretty high level concepts for starting a clothing 321 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: brand on day one, Like you literally started day one. 322 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,840 Kerry Docherty: I was day thirty thirty or sixty. So Alex and Mike, 323 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,959 Kerry Docherty: my husband, as an identical twin, this has been our 324 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,920 Kerry Docherty: childhood dream. They grew up surfing on the Jersey Shore. 325 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,560 Kerry Docherty: Mike is an incredible fashion signer. Alex I joke that 326 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,399 Kerry Docherty: we each only have like a quarter of a brain, 327 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:27,920 Kerry Docherty: Like Mike's a designer, Alex's CEO Business and Finance, I'm 328 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:33,600 Kerry Docherty: law Mindfulness Culture and their mother, my mother in law, 329 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,640 Kerry Docherty: was our intereage designer for stores. So we all quit 330 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,960 Kerry Docherty: our jobs in twenty thirteen to start the brand. 331 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: So you even quit your Mindfulness job. 332 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,000 Kerry Docherty: I even. I think I tried to do it for 333 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,160 Kerry Docherty: maybe six months and it was too much. I mean, 334 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,920 Kerry Docherty: you know that feeling of being all hands on deck 335 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,159 Kerry Docherty: and trying to grow something, and it was just all 336 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:51,920 Kerry Docherty: hands on deck. 337 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: So you guys all held hands and jumped in. Yes, 338 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,639 Emily Tisch Sussman: can you tell us about what those early days were like? Like, 339 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: what was the goal? The goal was to serve. 340 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,920 Kerry Docherty: So Alex and I got married and two weeks later 341 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,919 Kerry Docherty: I moved in with his twin brother. I remember my 342 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,639 Kerry Docherty: therapist being like, I don't know if this is a 343 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,600 Kerry Docherty: good idea, and I was like, this is it. We 344 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:12,879 Kerry Docherty: got to do it. We got to do it. So 345 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,080 Kerry Docherty: we all put our jobs. We raised a friends and 346 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,359 Kerry Docherty: family round, which was small, and then Alex had some 347 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,560 Kerry Docherty: savings and Mike started designing swimwear and we built an 348 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:29,720 Kerry Docherty: e commerce site, and we built a mobile essentially beach 349 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,399 Kerry Docherty: house on wheels that we hitched to the back of 350 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,360 Kerry Docherty: a pickup truck, and sixty days after starting the brand, 351 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,080 Kerry Docherty: got on the road and literally pulled into any parking 352 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,560 Kerry Docherty: lot we could find, whether it was a retail shop, 353 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:46,800 Kerry Docherty: a hotel, a friend's driveway, and just started slanging swimsuits. 354 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: So what was this decision like for you to leave 355 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: the business that had come really? I mean you had 356 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: worked this mindfulness business like it was so closely connected 357 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: to you to then join a business that was and 358 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:01,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: yes it was your husband, but it wasn't your vision, 359 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: like you weren't driving me. What was that transition like 360 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:04,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: for you? 361 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,840 Kerry Docherty: I remember feeling like, Okay, Alex and I, my husband 362 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,120 Kerry Docherty: and I were a startup. We just got married. Yeah, 363 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,000 Kerry Docherty: I have a startup, my mindfulness business, and Farity is 364 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,119 Kerry Docherty: a startup. And I don't know how to allocate my energy. 365 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,000 Kerry Docherty: And my mom taught me at a very young age 366 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,600 Kerry Docherty: if you don't know what to do, there are two 367 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,199 Kerry Docherty: places to go, Oprah or a psychic. And so I 368 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,760 Kerry Docherty: went to a psychic on the Upper West Side and 369 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,400 Kerry Docherty: a woman named Constantina. She's retired now, but if anyone 370 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,600 Kerry Docherty: needs psychic recommendations, I got you. And Constantina said Kerry. 371 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,240 Kerry Docherty: Faherty is a fast moving river and you can't swim 372 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,640 Kerry Docherty: against the current. Join and infuse what you love into 373 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,800 Kerry Docherty: the brand for a couple of years and watch what happens. 374 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,360 Kerry Docherty: And I'll never forget because she said to me, your 375 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,040 Kerry Docherty: husband will not ask you for help, but he needs help. 376 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,320 Kerry Docherty: And I remember going home that day and saying to Alex, like, 377 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,400 Kerry Docherty: I'm going to join you, and he said, quote unquote, 378 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,680 Kerry Docherty: I wouldn't have asked you for help, that I need help, 379 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,800 Kerry Docherty: and that was it, And it was I didn't really 380 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,080 Kerry Docherty: turn back, and there wasn't really time to. I mean, 381 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,320 Kerry Docherty: this was a family business and all of our financial 382 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,800 Kerry Docherty: security was tied to making it, so there wasn't a question. 383 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,040 Kerry Docherty: It was it's go time, and let's go. 384 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: Where are you at this point in your process of 385 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: like being in touch with your own feelings, your own needs, 386 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:26,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: because this has been like a real evolution for you. 387 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,240 Kerry Docherty: Yes, I think when you're building a brand, you have 388 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,440 Kerry Docherty: to move fast. And I was a couple of years 389 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,640 Kerry Docherty: in I started to feel signs of burnout. But after 390 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,199 Kerry Docherty: a couple of years in it started to wear on 391 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,680 Kerry Docherty: me and having a little bit of an existential crisis 392 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,359 Kerry Docherty: of like what am I doing here? Trying to bring 393 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,000 Kerry Docherty: my gifts into the business, and also figuring out how 394 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,879 Kerry Docherty: to run a company, like we didn't know how to 395 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,680 Kerry Docherty: run a company, and the financial stress of not you know, 396 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,320 Kerry Docherty: every three months, not knowing if you're going to be 397 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,800 Kerry Docherty: able to pay your bills you have employees ease. There 398 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,760 Kerry Docherty: were times I had to call my dad and be like, 399 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,199 Kerry Docherty: can you tap out some of your retirements so we 400 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,600 Kerry Docherty: can make payroll. Like that level of stress I think 401 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,400 Kerry Docherty: can really can wear on, you know, especially when you're 402 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,200 Kerry Docherty: taking care of other people financially. And then just being 403 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,560 Kerry Docherty: in the world of retail and fashion was a whole 404 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,280 Kerry Docherty: new ball wax for me. And also I was so 405 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,720 Kerry Docherty: intellectually stimulating. It was so fun and exciting to see 406 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,360 Kerry Docherty: the brand year after year get bigger. I mean, when 407 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,200 Kerry Docherty: I would see someone at the airport, I would look 408 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,879 Kerry Docherty: at for like the little sun and Waves logo at 409 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,200 Kerry Docherty: the bottom of their shirt, and I would run after 410 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,000 Kerry Docherty: them Alex and I could be please, don't do it, 411 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,200 Kerry Docherty: Please say don't be like, excuse me, are you wearing Verity? 412 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,919 Kerry Docherty: Thank you so much? Like we're the Erity, Like how 413 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,080 Kerry Docherty: did you find out? An Like I couldn't help myself. 414 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,000 Kerry Docherty: So it was thrilling and exhausting at the same time. 415 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: So they all jumped into something none of them fully 416 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,639 Emily Tisch Sussman: knew how to do, and for years the business and 417 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: the mayor were so tangled up that Kerry could barely 418 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: tell where one ended and the other began. Can you 419 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: talk us through some of the early roles that you did, 420 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,399 Emily Tisch Sussman: and also how you guys made it work financially, Like 421 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,639 Emily Tisch Sussman: you like lived together, yes, lived in the store. 422 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,840 Kerry Docherty: Yeah, so we lived together in an apartment. Then we couldn't 423 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,919 Kerry Docherty: afford the apartment, so we moved into our store on 424 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,680 Kerry Docherty: Thompson Street, which was our store, our office. It had 425 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,840 Kerry Docherty: no walls, so there was like a mattress and the 426 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,400 Kerry Docherty: top loft and then Mike's left in the hallway, essentially 427 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,920 Kerry Docherty: a hallway above the store. We had one bathroom which 428 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,040 Kerry Docherty: we shared. Like I would be taking a shower in 429 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,560 Kerry Docherty: our employees W'd be like, hi, you know, need to 430 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,040 Kerry Docherty: go to the bathroom and be like just a minute, 431 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,520 Kerry Docherty: come out in a towel. I mean, hr violations left 432 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,439 Kerry Docherty: and right, but that was the only way to make 433 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,000 Kerry Docherty: it work. And then eventually I got to a breaking 434 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,800 Kerry Docherty: point where was like, I cannot live in the store, 435 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,919 Kerry Docherty: and so we did get a rent control department, and 436 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,520 Kerry Docherty: then I illegally AirBnB'd and beat it to pay rent 437 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,119 Kerry Docherty: and did that for a few years. So we just 438 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,120 Kerry Docherty: tried to do all the things, and we wore all 439 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,520 Kerry Docherty: the hats. I was pr legal fit model. You know. 440 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,399 Kerry Docherty: We didn't have enough people to outsource things too, so 441 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,720 Kerry Docherty: we just did everything for years. 442 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,639 Emily Tisch Sussman: And how did you negotiate this? I mean, this is 443 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: also your new husband and his twin brother. Yes, talking 444 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: about complicated family dynamics and mom and mom mother in law. 445 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: Oh my god, how did you navigate this? Like from 446 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: a personal professional perspective, I think we. 447 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,639 Kerry Docherty: Were enmeshed and there were definitely times where it was difficult, 448 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,919 Kerry Docherty: and I would say how difficult it was. You know, 449 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,840 Kerry Docherty: I went to therapy, my husband and I we had 450 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,159 Kerry Docherty: to negotiate. You know, my book opens up with my 451 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,280 Kerry Docherty: husband and I negotiating my salary and couple therapy because 452 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,080 Kerry Docherty: there was no boundary between marriage and work. Like our 453 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,320 Kerry Docherty: queen size bed at night was also our conference table 454 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,480 Kerry Docherty: al was like our for play at times, like it 455 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,520 Kerry Docherty: was we talked about the business until we fell asleep, 456 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,880 Kerry Docherty: and then in the morning I'd turn over and I'd 457 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,720 Kerry Docherty: look at my boss and be like, let's go to 458 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,200 Kerry Docherty: work like that was just no no boundaries. 459 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,479 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah. The opening of the book is really something like, 460 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: oh wow, I this is a dynamic I've never thought 461 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: about and feel so layered. 462 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,000 Kerry Docherty: So layered, and you know, see people say working with 463 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,720 Kerry Docherty: your spouse can make or break the relationship, and it can. 464 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:34,879 Kerry Docherty: And for years I didn't know which way it was 465 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:35,280 Kerry Docherty: going to go. 466 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: Having read your book, I feel like it was both 467 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:38,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: for you, it was both. It was both. 468 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,520 Kerry Docherty: It was a thing that kept us so connected with 469 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,960 Kerry Docherty: a common theme of like what we wanted our future 470 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,639 Kerry Docherty: to look like, and it was the thing that almost 471 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,399 Kerry Docherty: broke us in terms of what is it like to 472 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,840 Kerry Docherty: be a romantic, married couple that is focusing on our family, 473 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,800 Kerry Docherty: the two of us. We didn't have that time to 474 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,240 Kerry Docherty: figure that out. 475 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: After the break, we get into the part of the 476 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: story that sits at the center of selfish and honestly 477 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: the part I couldn't stop thinking about after I read 478 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: the book. Be right back. 479 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,840 Kerry Docherty: When we were on the road with our trailer a 480 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,200 Kerry Docherty: couple of years into the brand, we were at Coachella 481 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,439 Kerry Docherty: and one of our favorite bands was playing, and we 482 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:34,040 Kerry Docherty: met the vand and I started into a friendship with 483 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,560 Kerry Docherty: the lead singer, and that friendship lasted for years, and 484 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,679 Kerry Docherty: it was a beautiful friendship for me for so many years. 485 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,280 Kerry Docherty: And also at some point it really started to cross 486 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,360 Kerry Docherty: lines and I started to use him as an escape 487 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,640 Kerry Docherty: mechanism to escape from the life that I was in. 488 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:01,560 Kerry Docherty: And also he represented to me unbridled activity, like here 489 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,879 Kerry Docherty: was someone who had pain and he was able to 490 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,440 Kerry Docherty: alchemize it into melody and song and allowed himself to 491 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,080 Kerry Docherty: feel the full depth of his feelings. And I had 492 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,840 Kerry Docherty: never really seen or been in relationship or friendship with 493 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,280 Kerry Docherty: someone who was so fully an artist, and it really 494 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,080 Kerry Docherty: activated something in me and served as a mirror of like, 495 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,120 Kerry Docherty: wait a second, I want to be an artist too, 496 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,280 Kerry Docherty: And he served as a mirror for me of my 497 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,119 Kerry Docherty: unawakened self that I also wanted to fall back in 498 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:38,280 Kerry Docherty: love with in myself. But the relationship it pushed boundaries. 499 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,080 Kerry Docherty: You know, there's a couple of scenes in the book 500 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,720 Kerry Docherty: where the reader will be like, this is this is betrayal. 501 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,439 Emily Tisch Sussman: Your husband was a part of this relationship with this 502 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: other man. For it feels like a long time having 503 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: read the book, he was not like in a relationship 504 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: since but like you were all friends. 505 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,000 Kerry Docherty: We were all friends, and I think Alex really, you know, 506 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,760 Kerry Docherty: I call him Bowen the book, Alex saw a lot 507 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,960 Kerry Docherty: of the dynamics of like our mutual love for each 508 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,600 Kerry Docherty: other as friendships. But it wasn't until I call it 509 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,360 Kerry Docherty: like the letter, which I share in the book, that 510 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,320 Kerry Docherty: Alex realized that the depth of my feelings for Bo 511 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,159 Kerry Docherty: was was much deeper than he had assume. 512 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: You've read in the book that a therapist named it 513 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,359 Emily Tisch Sussman: for you as an affair, that you were having an 514 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:23,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: affair with him. 515 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,399 Kerry Docherty: Yes, and I was so righteous in my defense that 516 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,119 Kerry Docherty: it wasn't. But it doesn't matter how I label it. 517 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,480 Kerry Docherty: I think Alex would label it as an affair, and 518 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,640 Kerry Docherty: I mean I'll own it. 519 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,399 Emily Tisch Sussman: I'll own that no one person can fulfill any person 520 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: fully in any one relationship. That's friendships, that's partnership, but 521 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: that I mean, we look for two other people for 522 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: everything in our lives, you know, like to serve different 523 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,439 Emily Tisch Sussman: roles in our lives. So where do you feel like 524 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: that relationship with Bo crossed the line into an inappropriate place? 525 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,439 Kerry Docherty: I think it was, you know, I think Esther Pearl 526 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,159 Kerry Docherty: has like I love how she talks about monogamy and 527 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,600 Kerry Docherty: relationships and where those lines are. They have to be 528 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,280 Kerry Docherty: talked about between the couple themselves, and different couples might 529 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,960 Kerry Docherty: have different expectations of where those lines are drawn. But 530 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,760 Kerry Docherty: one of the key things she talks about is like, 531 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,040 Kerry Docherty: at what point are you kicking your partner out of 532 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,159 Kerry Docherty: your heart to make space for someone else? And I 533 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:25,040 Kerry Docherty: think for many years Alex no longer became like the 534 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,680 Kerry Docherty: primary partner in my heart. And I think there was 535 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,239 Kerry Docherty: a lot of reasons for that, but for me, it 536 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,520 Kerry Docherty: was more of a feeling state than it was a 537 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,840 Kerry Docherty: I'm going to give you these five reasons as to 538 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,960 Kerry Docherty: why the line was crossed. It was how I was 539 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:45,040 Kerry Docherty: spending my idle moments of prioritizing where my energy was going. 540 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: Can you tell us about the letter? 541 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,640 Kerry Docherty: So in twenty twenty, it was during COVID and I 542 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,240 Kerry Docherty: joined a writing collective Bookly Writers Collective. It was via zoom. 543 00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,600 Kerry Docherty: I could not believe how many women were telling the truth, 544 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,440 Kerry Docherty: like sharing the most raw and complicated parts of themselves 545 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,120 Kerry Docherty: and parts of their stories and really realizing like, oh 546 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,960 Kerry Docherty: my gosh, everyone is walking around with a broken heart 547 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,440 Kerry Docherty: in so many different ways. And my writing teacher one 548 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,160 Kerry Docherty: day we were talking about epistolary form, and Molly said 549 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,440 Kerry Docherty: to me, Kiri, you're going to be workshopped next week. 550 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,840 Kerry Docherty: Please write a letter that you will never send. So 551 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,200 Kerry Docherty: I went home and I started writing a letter, and 552 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,240 Kerry Docherty: I addressed it to Bo on his wedding day, and 553 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,800 Kerry Docherty: I essentially chronicled our relationship and said, you know, there 554 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,160 Kerry Docherty: are different types of love, and this type of love, 555 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,640 Kerry Docherty: this is a being love. There's being love, and there's 556 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,720 Kerry Docherty: a doing love, and this love just has to be. 557 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:53,720 Kerry Docherty: And I'm essentially letting you go. I write in journals chronically. 558 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,920 Kerry Docherty: I leave journals strewn around the house, and Alex never 559 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,320 Kerry Docherty: reads my journals, like he has so much integrity and 560 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,920 Kerry Docherty: wanting to preserve my privacy. But a couple of days 561 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,840 Kerry Docherty: after writing that letter, I'm at to dinner and I 562 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,400 Kerry Docherty: get a text from Alex. Hi, I read your letter 563 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,320 Kerry Docherty: to Bo, and I come home say I'm coming home. 564 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,720 Kerry Docherty: I text my writing teacher. Alex read the letter and 565 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,880 Kerry Docherty: she wrote, congratulations, you're free now. And I walk in 566 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,480 Kerry Docherty: and our four year old daughter Ava had wanted practice 567 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,120 Kerry Docherty: her letters. Alex's computer was dead. He opened up my computer. 568 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,040 Kerry Docherty: He goes to Microsoftward and there it is. And that 569 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,400 Kerry Docherty: was really a turning point for us as a couple 570 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,960 Kerry Docherty: in terms of are we ready to be really honest 571 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:48,240 Kerry Docherty: about what's happening here? My heart dropped to say the least. 572 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,239 Kerry Docherty: I mean, I think both of us felt devastated. It 573 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,000 Kerry Docherty: was actually a helpful reminder. I remember walking home. The 574 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,040 Kerry Docherty: apartment was a mass. I think my kids were like 575 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,600 Kerry Docherty: using permanent markers on our Brooklyn apartment. And I saw 576 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,800 Kerry Docherty: so much pain in Alex's eyes, But there was also 577 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,520 Kerry Docherty: a deep comfort of like, oh my gosh, you're still 578 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,160 Kerry Docherty: in there. And there was a part of me and 579 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,280 Kerry Docherty: a part of him that over the course of running 580 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,120 Kerry Docherty: this business, we had stopped seeing each other as like 581 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,240 Kerry Docherty: fully capable, deep feeling people who were in pain. And 582 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,520 Kerry Docherty: that was a moment when it was like I'm still 583 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,560 Kerry Docherty: in here, are you still in there? And what are 584 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:28,360 Kerry Docherty: we going to do now? 585 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: How long did it take for you to make the 586 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: decision that you wanted to be totally honest, you wanted 587 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,959 Emily Tisch Sussman: to stay together or did you not? Did you question it? 588 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,640 Kerry Docherty: I think we both Alex and I have a funny 589 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,440 Kerry Docherty: routine of ranking each other at night, like how are 590 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,880 Kerry Docherty: you feeling about me? One to ten? And you know 591 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,240 Kerry Docherty: I was ranked to two for many, many weeks and months, 592 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,600 Kerry Docherty: and sometimes it went up and down, and I ranked 593 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,240 Kerry Docherty: him in two. I remember Alex asking a few weeks 594 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,200 Kerry Docherty: after the letter, like would you cry if I die? 595 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,280 Kerry Docherty: And like, what a question to ask your wife? Yes, Alex, 596 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,680 Kerry Docherty: I would cry if you died. But it showed the 597 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,400 Kerry Docherty: level of unsafety. I think we felt with the other 598 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,000 Kerry Docherty: of like what type of lover are we fighting for? 599 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,480 Kerry Docherty: And how do we want to show up? That continues 600 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,000 Kerry Docherty: to be something that we explore. And I always joke 601 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,480 Kerry Docherty: that marriage is a year to year contract. As a lawyer, 602 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,880 Kerry Docherty: you never sign a contract for the rest of your life, 603 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,480 Kerry Docherty: but this is what we do with marriage. But I 604 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,840 Kerry Docherty: think both of us realize we have to keep choosing 605 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,680 Kerry Docherty: each other and that act of choosing each other is 606 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,600 Kerry Docherty: a day to day decision and there are going to 607 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,160 Kerry Docherty: be times when we wound each other. But are we 608 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,800 Kerry Docherty: also willing to heal together? And I think that is 609 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,040 Kerry Docherty: the journey that we're on and this book. I cannot 610 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,160 Kerry Docherty: tell you how painful this book was for Alex. I mean, 611 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,280 Kerry Docherty: after he read the first draft and I share a 612 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,160 Kerry Docherty: part of this at the end, he looked at me 613 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,000 Kerry Docherty: and he's like, can you imagine if I wrote a 614 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,880 Kerry Docherty: three hundred page book about what it's like to be 615 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,160 Kerry Docherty: married to you. It's insane and it is and it 616 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,120 Kerry Docherty: is insane. And the book is titled Selfish. And one 617 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,280 Kerry Docherty: of the most selfish things I could have done was 618 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,040 Kerry Docherty: to publish a book that brings my husband pain. 619 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: So at what point did you decide that you were 620 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: going to turn this into a book? And how much 621 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: did you decide goes into it versus what you keep private? 622 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,640 Kerry Docherty: So I started collecting essays over the course of my 623 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,600 Kerry Docherty: Brooklyn writer's collective days, and I wrote a kid's book 624 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,440 Kerry Docherty: in twenty twenty two. And when I was in tour 625 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,600 Kerry Docherty: with the kid's book, I met an agent, a literary agent, 626 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,000 Kerry Docherty: and she said, Okay, send me some of your work. 627 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,520 Kerry Docherty: And I sent it to her. Didn't hear from her 628 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,320 Kerry Docherty: for seven months, and I was like, Okay, what am 629 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,920 Kerry Docherty: I doing? Like I'm an amateur. I don't know what 630 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,320 Kerry Docherty: all of this book publishing stuff's about. But seven months 631 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,360 Kerry Docherty: later she replied, and she said there could be something here. 632 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,920 Kerry Docherty: Let's work on a let's work on a proposal. The 633 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,560 Kerry Docherty: proposal the time was called The Selfish Wife, and a 634 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,880 Kerry Docherty: chronicled how we define selfish, chronicled you know a lot 635 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,720 Kerry Docherty: of what I've just shared with on this podcast. And 636 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:00,760 Kerry Docherty: worked on the propose so for a year and a 637 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,120 Kerry Docherty: half and then submitted it to publishers and Penguin Harmony 638 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,719 Kerry Docherty: rode out Is the imprint on picked it up, and 639 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,400 Kerry Docherty: then I spent another two years writing it. And it's interesting. 640 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,080 Kerry Docherty: My husband Alex really didn't ask me about the book, 641 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,040 Kerry Docherty: and I remember one time being almost to the final 642 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,239 Kerry Docherty: chapter and looking at him and saying, do you know 643 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:28,880 Kerry Docherty: what I'm writing about? And him saying life. I said, yeah, life. 644 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,319 Emily Tisch Sussman: And then Kerry decided to write it down, all of it. 645 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: Her editor told her after the first draft that she 646 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: needed to be a little more likable. CARRY considered that 647 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:38,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: a good sign. 648 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,280 Kerry Docherty: If you read the book. It is a brutally honest book, 649 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,080 Kerry Docherty: and I'm a complicated character in it. I had to 650 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,120 Kerry Docherty: disassociate from what the consequences would be, and so for 651 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,400 Kerry Docherty: two years I every day wrote. I would say what 652 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,239 Kerry Docherty: am I not saying here that needs to be said? 653 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,439 Kerry Docherty: And then I would write it down. And I did 654 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,560 Kerry Docherty: that because I if I knew what other how other 655 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,680 Kerry Docherty: people would respond, I would not tell the truth. And 656 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,160 Kerry Docherty: as an avid reader, I would have loved a book 657 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,160 Kerry Docherty: like this when I was in the depths of my despair. 658 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,560 Kerry Docherty: And as much as I knew I was being selfish 659 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,560 Kerry Docherty: to my family for writing this book, I also knew 660 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,440 Kerry Docherty: it could be an act of service if I allowed 661 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,280 Kerry Docherty: myself to really go there. And I remember my editor 662 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,920 Kerry Docherty: even saying to me, Kerry after the first draft, I 663 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,520 Kerry Docherty: need you to be a little bit more likable. 664 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,279 Emily Tisch Sussman: Oh wow, how did that? 665 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:34,200 Kerry Docherty: I was so smitten. I was like, Oh, I am 666 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,960 Kerry Docherty: literally the most likable person I know, Like you're calling 667 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,960 Kerry Docherty: me almost unlikable. And it meant I did my job. 668 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,879 Kerry Docherty: It meant that I was really allowing and pulling back 669 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,600 Kerry Docherty: the veil of my innermost thoughts to be revealed, and 670 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:49,560 Kerry Docherty: I was doing my job. 671 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: It really is one of the I'd say, the most 672 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: honest book I've ever read. Wow, I didn't really know 673 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: a lot about it. I mean, I've known you for 674 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: a lot of time, but I didn't. I didn't tracking 675 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: the Rise of Charity that closely. I hadn't known ele 676 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: it and I had heard the how I built this episode, 677 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: and I thought packed myself, like, what a beautiful story 678 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: that is so different than actually the reality that I know. 679 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:15,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: See and carry this book? 680 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,280 Kerry Docherty: Yeah, guy, Roz. If you want another how I built 681 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,680 Kerry Docherty: this on Verity from the women's perspective, call me. 682 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: I mean, you're not in the episode. 683 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,000 Kerry Docherty: I know, and I was the one that introduced Alex. 684 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,399 Emily Tisch Sussman: The guy, and I mean, how'd you feel about that? 685 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,440 Kerry Docherty: I felt complicated. I also felt like, listen, this is 686 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,799 Kerry Docherty: Alex in Mike's dream they have, this has been their 687 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,680 Kerry Docherty: dreams since they were kids, and the identity of the 688 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,319 Kerry Docherty: brand is very much built on them as twins. And 689 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,400 Kerry Docherty: also it's a tale as old as time that sometimes 690 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,239 Kerry Docherty: when you're building a brand, sometimes other people behind the 691 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,799 Kerry Docherty: scenes don't get as much credit. And that's okay, but 692 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,279 Kerry Docherty: I feel it it's complicated for me. 693 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,319 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, and this book is now you like it's it's 694 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: it's not the whole business, it's not the whole family, 695 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,399 Emily Tisch Sussman: it's just you. Is that role feeling different for you now? Yeah? 696 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,080 Kerry Docherty: It feels like terrifying and liberating. And you know, I 697 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,400 Kerry Docherty: am obsessed with Verity and you know, I this is 698 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,000 Kerry Docherty: my baby too. It's like my first child. And our 699 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,000 Kerry Docherty: team's incredible, and it's been scary for me to walk 700 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,200 Kerry Docherty: out into this next creative endeavor for me, like on 701 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,560 Kerry Docherty: my own because Alex Mike and I. We have We've 702 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,040 Kerry Docherty: been a team, We've been in it together, and now 703 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,920 Kerry Docherty: I'm just like, ohka, Like, who can I blame? I 704 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,359 Kerry Docherty: can only blame me, Like I've been able to blame 705 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,160 Kerry Docherty: Alex and Mike for stuff for years, and I'm like, 706 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,879 Kerry Docherty: I am the only one to blame or to give 707 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,400 Kerry Docherty: credit for this next this next chapter for me. 708 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, And does it mean a different relationship to the 709 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: brand for you, like to the business. 710 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,040 Kerry Docherty: I think from an operational perspective, I'm not going to 711 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,799 Kerry Docherty: be there every day the way that I was, but 712 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,560 Kerry Docherty: I'm still intricately involved. I mean, we have a cafe, 713 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,319 Kerry Docherty: and we opened up a cafe in our hometown. Any 714 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,960 Kerry Docherty: trip we go and we visit our store team, I'm 715 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,239 Kerry Docherty: still passionate about so much of our impact work in 716 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,279 Kerry Docherty: the community that we've built, so I'll forever be a 717 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,880 Kerry Docherty: part of it, but from a day to day operations, 718 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:10,759 Kerry Docherty: I'm starting to let things go. 719 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: I do see a little bit for you that I 720 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,759 Emily Tisch Sussman: think that so many people are going to have really 721 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: strong responses to the book, positive and negative and probably both. Yes, 722 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: Like the same person will have probably both responses to 723 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: the book, and it ends up I've interviewed. You know, 724 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: many authors and people who've told their story, it ends 725 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: up kind of like putting the author in a category 726 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: of person who like speaks the truth, whether it's like 727 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: a mommy blogger, a truth teller, like you know, a 728 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: speaker to women, and women have been this kind of 729 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: different track of work. Yeah, Like people come want you 730 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,759 Emily Tisch Sussman: to come speak, they want classes from you. That's a 731 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: different identity for you, that's a different workflow for you. 732 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:49,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: Are you prepared for that? 733 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,279 Kerry Docherty: I don't think so. I don't know what is to come. 734 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,000 Kerry Docherty: I don't know how this book will be received. I 735 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,160 Kerry Docherty: know it's changed my life. The act of writing this 736 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,799 Kerry Docherty: book has changed my life. And so no matter what, 737 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,960 Kerry Docherty: I'm entering a new chapter of my life. But what 738 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,920 Kerry Docherty: is to come? Like, I don't I don't know yet. 739 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,520 Kerry Docherty: And this is the first time in my life in 740 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,640 Kerry Docherty: decades that I don't know what is to come. And 741 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,799 Kerry Docherty: it's exciting. Yeah, and I have a wild imagination, But 742 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:17,520 Kerry Docherty: I don't know. I just don't know. 743 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: How are you sitting with that uncertainty? People don't handle 744 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:20,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: this too. 745 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,239 Kerry Docherty: I'm sweating, it's just constantly sweating. I mean, I'm also 746 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:29,839 Kerry Docherty: just so excited. I think My focus right now is 747 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,880 Kerry Docherty: on and you know, I define selfish as really leaning 748 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,440 Kerry Docherty: into the things that make us feel alive. And there 749 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,080 Kerry Docherty: is a feeling of a liveness I have right now 750 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,839 Kerry Docherty: which is so energizing to me. And so whether it's 751 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,160 Kerry Docherty: the good or the bad, like this feeling of a 752 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,759 Kerry Docherty: liveness and curiosity of like whatever is to come, I'm 753 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,640 Kerry Docherty: ready for. It feels really exciting to me. 754 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, when you say your imagination is running wild, like 755 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:57,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: what are the possibilities? 756 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,560 Kerry Docherty: I mean the truth is I I want this book 757 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,200 Kerry Docherty: to do well enough so I can write another book. 758 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,840 Kerry Docherty: I have a poetry book in me, I have a 759 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,680 Kerry Docherty: fiction book in me. I love writing. I am a 760 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,120 Kerry Docherty: writer at heart, and so I cannot wait to keep 761 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,000 Kerry Docherty: on writing. But I'm already like halfway through my novel, 762 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,279 Kerry Docherty: at least in my head. 763 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: Please tell me you're writing the book about the abandoned 764 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: shift that is on your beach. I am writing this 765 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,759 Emily Tisch Sussman: to you constantly. I am obsessed with this abandoned ship 766 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,759 Emily Tisch Sussman: on your beach that you have been beautifully chroniclized. 767 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,120 Kerry Docherty: Yes, well, that will be a character, the captain who 768 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,640 Kerry Docherty: has gone missing. If people want to google Seagert abandoned sailboat. 769 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,799 Kerry Docherty: It's a good story, will be a character in the book. 770 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: Some excellent Instagram content on you don't sell yourself short 771 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: on your boat Instagram content. 772 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,120 Kerry Docherty: Thank you so much, just reporting live from the Jersey Shore. 773 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,799 Emily Tisch Sussman: One of the things that I found the most surprising 774 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,239 Emily Tisch Sussman: in your book was that you included the reaction of 775 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: those around you, including your husband, right, and they're reluctant 776 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,239 Emily Tisch Sussman: to have you publish it. Yes, Like that level of chronicling, 777 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: I think is something I've almost never seen. I mean, 778 00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:59,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: I can't think of a time that I've seen it. 779 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: So why did you decide to include that part? I mean, 780 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: there's always a question is when when you're writing memoir, 781 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: when does it end? Like when when is the final chapter? 782 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: And the submission of this book was not the final chapter. 783 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,959 Kerry Docherty: I am still I mean, I could write epilogue after 784 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,439 Kerry Docherty: epilogue after epilogue of What's unfolded since Yeah, I knew 785 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,880 Kerry Docherty: it was non traditional to include the reader on some 786 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,799 Kerry Docherty: of the responses, but I often don't feel like memoirs 787 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,239 Kerry Docherty: share some of the fallout that can happen. And I 788 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,600 Kerry Docherty: remember calling one of my friends like it's not going 789 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,080 Kerry Docherty: well over here, and her being like oh, of course not. 790 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,720 Kerry Docherty: I was like, no one warned me, no one warmed. 791 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,479 Kerry Docherty: All I wanted to do was write a book about 792 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,520 Kerry Docherty: my life and think that I was going to get 793 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,200 Kerry Docherty: a standing ovation. And that didn't happen. 794 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: That is so vulnerable. 795 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,760 Kerry Docherty: It is so vulnerable, and I may never write nonfiction again. 796 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,040 Kerry Docherty: I mean, we can always incorporate real life stories into fiction. 797 00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,440 Kerry Docherty: So but you know, I have compassion because every memoir 798 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,279 Kerry Docherty: betrays someone. There are people in this book who do 799 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,359 Kerry Docherty: not want to be in this book. There are parts 800 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,000 Kerry Docherty: of my life, there are parts of my story. I 801 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:13,960 Kerry Docherty: am Prentice Hempos, one of my favorite thought leaders shares 802 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,800 Kerry Docherty: the self is not an individual, and me writing my memoir, 803 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,360 Kerry Docherty: I am not other than my family, upbringing, my marriage, 804 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,759 Kerry Docherty: my in laws, this business. So to write about my life, 805 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,120 Kerry Docherty: I inherently implicate other people and I have to take 806 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,480 Kerry Docherty: accountability for that, and there are consequences for it. I 807 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,640 Kerry Docherty: would not change anything, but there have been consequences for me. 808 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: It could be something we've discussed, it could be something different. 809 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,239 Emily Tisch Sussman: But what is something that at the time you felt 810 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: like was a real low point but so fundamentally changed 811 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: your perspective that it led you to the success you 812 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:48,399 Emily Tisch Sussman: are now. 813 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,040 Kerry Docherty: Oh wow, that's such a good question. I think for me, 814 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,160 Kerry Docherty: I'm someone who, despite having a mindfulness practice and trying 815 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,239 Kerry Docherty: to know how I feel, it takes a while for 816 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,000 Kerry Docherty: me to actually know how I feel. And so it's 817 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,560 Kerry Docherty: not until I'm out of the low points that I 818 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,520 Kerry Docherty: realized how low I've been. And so it's like through 819 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,520 Kerry Docherty: reflection that I realize, oh wow, I was really struggling then. 820 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,719 Kerry Docherty: But there were so many times when I was, you know, 821 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,520 Kerry Docherty: just sobbing in the bathtub, feeling like ungrateful, high case. 822 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,480 Kerry Docherty: And I think we didn't even really talk about motherhood, 823 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,719 Kerry Docherty: but that definitely threw a wrench into it too, of 824 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,480 Kerry Docherty: like am I good? Am I a good mom? And 825 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,880 Kerry Docherty: I think we women put that burden on themselves. I 826 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,400 Kerry Docherty: remember once asking Alex before we went to sleep, So 827 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:34,920 Kerry Docherty: at the end of every day, do you add up 828 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,319 Kerry Docherty: all the good things you've done and then subtract all 829 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,600 Kerry Docherty: the bad things and just hope you get to a 830 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,640 Kerry Docherty: positive number. It's like I don't think like that, Like, Okay, yeah, 831 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,120 Kerry Docherty: that must be really nice totally, but in my mind, 832 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,400 Kerry Docherty: I'm like, you know, have I made the kids lunch? 833 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,000 Kerry Docherty: Is there food in the fridge? Is there laundry done. 834 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,840 Kerry Docherty: Am I doing enough to intellectually stimulate them? Have the 835 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,359 Kerry Docherty: head screenplayed like I Motherhood for me is a game 836 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,080 Kerry Docherty: of math, and every I'm like, am I winning? Or 837 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,960 Kerry Docherty: am I losing? And so I think motherhood has been 838 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,120 Kerry Docherty: very confronting to me about some little points of just 839 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:08,440 Kerry Docherty: feeling like I was failing. 840 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: But do you think it has now shifted your perspective 841 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: in a way that you are grateful for? Or yes? 842 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:14,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: For sure? 843 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,239 Kerry Docherty: For sure? And now I think I'm the best mom 844 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,640 Kerry Docherty: I can possibly be at this moment, and I think 845 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,680 Kerry Docherty: there are some things for me that are more valuable 846 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,759 Kerry Docherty: than like fresh cook dinners and it's and maybe I'm 847 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,800 Kerry Docherty: being delusional, but like my kids know about past lives 848 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,359 Kerry Docherty: and can name thirty different emotions and when they're mad, 849 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,640 Kerry Docherty: they write I hate you in my journal their journal 850 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,759 Kerry Docherty: like that. For me, I'm like, great, the kids are 851 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:42,440 Kerry Docherty: going to be all right. You know, they know how 852 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,839 Kerry Docherty: to ask for help and that there are resources, like 853 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,880 Kerry Docherty: what a gift to have that language totally. 854 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:49,479 Emily Tisch Sussman: Do you think you'll pivot again? 855 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,480 Kerry Docherty: Of course I don't know how, but I'm sure I will. 856 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:55,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: Thank you so much, Kerry. 857 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,920 Kerry Docherty: I loved having we could go like ten more times, 858 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:04,080 Kerry Docherty: ten more times. 859 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: Kerry spent so much time meeting other people's expectations it 860 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: took real courage to finally ask what she wanted. Kerry's 861 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,879 Emily Tisch Sussman: story is a reminder that sometimes the most radical thing 862 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: a woman can do is to decide that her needs 863 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: matter too. Her memoir, Selfish on Learning, Reclaiming and Telling 864 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: the Truth, is out now. Links are in the show notes. 865 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:34,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: That's it for today. See us soon. Thanks for listening 866 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: to she Pivots. If you like this episode, follow the 867 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: show so you never miss a pivot story and share 868 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: it with one woman in your life who might need 869 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,279 Emily Tisch Sussman: to hear it. To learn more about our guests and 870 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: join our community, follow us on Instagram at she pivots 871 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: the podcast our Subscribe to our substack for exclusive content 872 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: and behind the scenes conversations. You can also find us 873 00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: at shepivotspod dot com. This episode was produced and edited 874 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: by Paige Davis Janatt, with sound editing and mixing by 875 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: Nina Pollock. Logistics and planning by Amostopic and Kendall Crupkin. 876 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: Research by Christine Dickison. She Pivots is proud to be 877 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: a part of the iHeart podcast network. I endorse she 878 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:16,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: pivots