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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Devoured by Bugs. It's a podcast

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Speaker 2: that isn't called that. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and

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Speaker 2: we're not talking about that, except once again giving you

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Speaker 2: strange hints at what we're talking about before we hit record.

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Speaker 2: Why do you all care? Why do I think you care?

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Speaker 2: Why am our guest today is Caitlin? Aren't they hy? Caitlin?

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Speaker 3: Hello? Excuse me? I was burping. We got the drink

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Speaker 3: of water that I had alluded to at the end

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Speaker 3: of the last episode, or maybe did I say that

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Speaker 3: on Mic or off Mike, I don't remember, who knows.

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Speaker 3: The point is I needed some water. I brilliantly got

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Speaker 3: a can of uh sparkling water.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Sophie doesn't let me drink those?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, Well it's for good reason, because they will

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Speaker 3: make you burp.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which you don't realize talk until your job is

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Speaker 2: to talk, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, so I might be. I'm going to try

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Speaker 3: really hard not to audibly because that is gross and

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Speaker 3: anyone to hear me do that. So yeah, I'll do

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Speaker 3: my best. But now I feel you.

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Speaker 2: Know, binary cred? What's that your non binary cred?

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Speaker 3: True? Yeah, I think that the burping on air on

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Speaker 3: a podcast is defies gender.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I admit I don't like it, but because I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of fem.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean so now I'm just gonna not ever

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Speaker 3: not I'm gonna I'm gonna burp a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, not burp cast with our host Sophie.

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Speaker 1: I will also not be green lighting that.

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Speaker 2: It's cool people who did cool burps, cool people who

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Speaker 2: did cool stuff without burping. M Yeah, we're a burp negative,

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Speaker 2: We're a body function negative podcast.

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Speaker 3: Now I feel shamed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's actually how I knew that I was transits,

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Speaker 2: that I poop roses.

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Speaker 3: That's beautiful.

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Speaker 2: This girl's poop roses. I don't know whether I can

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Speaker 2: I can't even. Oh god, all right, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: surrealis who probably would have. We're gonna talk about some

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Speaker 2: people who are into some fucking kind of nasty art

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Speaker 2: today in a good way. Oh hell yeah, a little

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Speaker 2: bit more in the sex nasty unless the fucking burp

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Speaker 2: joke whatever. Sophie's our producer. Hi, Sophie Hey. Ian is

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Speaker 2: our audio editor. Hi Ian, Hey Ian. Okay, and we

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Speaker 2: can't continue until you say hi to Ian.

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Speaker 3: Sorry I was burping again but you didn't hear it.

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Speaker 3: So I'm two for two Highen.

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Speaker 2: And Unwomen Deserar theme song. This is part four of

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Speaker 2: our four part are on the Surrealists, and today we're

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Speaker 2: just gonna talk about even more cool anti fascist artists

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Speaker 2: and queers because there's just a lot of them. Nice

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Speaker 2: I thought there'd be like clog Con would be the

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Speaker 2: only specifically fighting against fascist non binary person in the

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Speaker 2: surrealist movement because but no, absolutely not. So back to

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Speaker 2: the Surrealists. They're just getting started. You all the datas,

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Speaker 2: they're like snoweight Now ur surrealis that sounds more fun.

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Speaker 2: Andre Berton was a Freudian physician helping soldiers deal with

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Speaker 2: shell shock, and he and others folks are like their

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Speaker 2: fucking outh automatic. Writing in nineteen twenty four, Breton writes

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Speaker 2: Surrealist Manifesto, this doesn't kick things off, It's already been happening,

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Speaker 2: but it's the cultural touchstone for everyone except that other

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Speaker 2: group from the big split with Zara that where they

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Speaker 2: were like fighting each other and shit. They actually put

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Speaker 2: out a different Surrealist Manifesto like two weeks earlier, but

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Speaker 2: no one remembers it because it's not the one that's stuck.

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Speaker 2: I think they got into a fist fight about it,

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Speaker 2: about having these two different manifestos. Okay, And in the end,

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Speaker 2: Breton's surrealis just kind of outnumbered the other folks.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of like when a Bug's Life and Ants

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Speaker 3: came out at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no one remembers Ants.

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Speaker 3: No, but people, I do people.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, you probably remember the first Surrealist manifesto too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've established I'm a fucking freakazoid.

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Speaker 3: I mean I saw Ants, and I remember Woody Allen

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Speaker 3: does a voice in it for some reason. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: but bugs Life.

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Speaker 1: The lesser Woody buzz Life definitely more fun. Couldn't agree more?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's exactly like that. So the Bugs Life

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Speaker 2: there's more of them and people like it more. And

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Speaker 2: the Bug's Life Manifesto is an absurdist document. And it's like,

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Speaker 2: we know what surrealism is, but we don't know how

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Speaker 2: we're going to get there, and we refused to have

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Speaker 2: a set plan. And at the start, they're like art

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Speaker 2: kids meeting in cafes and playing games like Exquisite Corps

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Speaker 2: and doing automatic drawing and some actually mostly writing. At

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Speaker 2: the beginning, it actually starts off more of a literature movement.

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Speaker 2: It actually like takes a.

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Speaker 3: While that magazine called literature.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, the well named magazine literature. Some of

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Speaker 2: them are rich kids, some of them aren't. Some of

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Speaker 2: them are traumatized as fuck by fighting in World War One.

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Speaker 2: Kids is the wrong word to use here. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can be twenty two years old, but if you

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Speaker 2: fought World War One, you're older than me.

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Speaker 3: You're yeah, you're a grown ass adult.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Surrealism starts springing up everywhere autonomously, and they're not

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Speaker 2: like official chapters. Brussels, which is super nearby, is the first.

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Speaker 2: I think. By nineteen twenty nine, they're more political now

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Speaker 2: and they write a new manifesto, and this one is like,

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Speaker 2: we believe in collective action. We're engaged in all the

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Speaker 2: following political things. And by the way, the following specific

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Speaker 2: people are specifically not part of our movement anymore because

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Speaker 2: we don't like them, because they don't approve of our

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Speaker 2: belief in collective action in the following, narrowly defined way.

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Speaker 2: Most of these splits which keep happening are fundamentally political. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: Dali is run out for being a fascist, but it's

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Speaker 2: also like who likes Trotsky and who likes Stalin and

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Speaker 2: who likes anarchism and all this shit. But most of

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Speaker 2: the people who are expelled don't actually stop being surrealist, right,

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Speaker 2: because it's not actually it like claims to weve be

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Speaker 2: a member organization. It is not a member organization. Some

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Speaker 2: people do leave surrealism, like there's a diehard Stalinist who like,

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Speaker 2: there's a bunch of people who are like, actually Stalin

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Speaker 2: says that surrealism is bad and only Marxist really or

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Speaker 2: whatever the fuck is good and we need to represent

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Speaker 2: things in materialism and blah blah blah blah blah, like

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Speaker 2: whatever bullshit. Those people stopp being surrealists. Overall, all the

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Speaker 2: splits and purges and shit, it's just weird infighting drama

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Speaker 2: and not stopping people from looking for the marvelous and

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Speaker 2: fighting against miserableism. Then in nineteen thirty six, Friend of

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Speaker 2: the Pod, the Spanish Civil War kicks off. Franco is

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Speaker 2: a fascist Catholic and he tries and fails to throw

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Speaker 2: a coup against the republican government of left leaning Spain,

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Speaker 2: and a motley assortment of leftist band together to fight

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Speaker 2: him back. Spoiler alert, they lose, but this is a

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Speaker 2: huge deal internationally, this whole fight, and it's the first

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Speaker 2: war against fascism in history, and the surrealists are all

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Speaker 2: about supporting the republic against the fascists. You can hear

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Speaker 2: other half of the Bechdel Cast talk about the Spanish

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Speaker 2: Civil War on the episode probably called the Spanish Civil

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Speaker 2: War with Jamie Loftus. But if you just searched Jamie

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Speaker 2: Loftis Spanish Civil War, probably fine.

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Speaker 3: I imagine she did at least twenty other podcast about

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Speaker 3: that specifically.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, well there was that whole year where

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Speaker 2: the Bechdel Cast was just movies about the Spanish Civil War.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Pan's Labyrinth and others.

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Speaker 2: I know, a whole bunch, but that's because I'm a nerd. Wait,

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Speaker 2: what are some others? Wait, there's this one that's an

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Speaker 2: inversion of Pan's Labyrinth. Okay, you know how Pan's Labyrinth

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Speaker 2: is like magical realism against fascism and set in the

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Speaker 2: Spanish Civil War, like kind of immediately after the Spanish

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Speaker 2: Civil War. There's one that's magical realism against four fascism

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Speaker 2: set in the Spanish Civil War. It's called ill bosk

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Speaker 2: the forest but ill I L I think is maybe

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Speaker 2: the Kathalan spelling of it. Okay, yeah, and it is

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Speaker 2: pro fascist. It's the other side of the Civil War right,

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Speaker 2: and like it comes out kind of a it's like

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Speaker 2: ants the bugs life. Yes, it's like a couple of

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Speaker 2: years later. Although you know what, I'm not a big

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Speaker 2: fan of what are you on? And yeah? No, and

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Speaker 2: it's it's fucked up. It's kind of worth watching, just

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Speaker 2: as like this like weird, like so what are the

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Speaker 2: people who wish that? Who are Glad franco one think

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Speaker 2: of all this?

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Speaker 3: You know, wait, does the movie take the stance of like, wow,

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Speaker 3: fascism is awesome or is it just about those characters

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Speaker 3: who feel good?

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Speaker 2: The movie is pro fascist? Oh god, it is like

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Speaker 2: pro it is anti leftist, is anti the people who

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Speaker 2: are fighting against the good, hard working bourgeoisie of rural Catalonia.

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Speaker 2: And this was a recent movie, yeah, like ten like

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Speaker 2: twenty years or so. Yeah, yeah, maybe ten years ago

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Speaker 2: or so. Oh god, okay, so does that one? And

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Speaker 2: then there's Libertarios which is awesome, which is about anarchist

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Speaker 2: women fighting, and then there's Land Freedom by Ken Loach

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Speaker 2: who's like my favorite did he did the Win, the

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Speaker 2: Shakes the Barley, So he's like one of my favorite

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Speaker 2: directors because he the my favorite movie. But the Irish

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Speaker 2: Civil War or Irish Revolution and the Civil War and okay,

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Speaker 2: that's it might be all this. I'm sure there's more. Oh,

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Speaker 2: the Anarchist Wife, which is the worst name for any movie.

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Speaker 2: It's a French movie. Okay, this is not Margaret lists

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Speaker 2: all the Spanish Civil War movies. Anyway, I did enjoy

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Speaker 2: that very much, though, thanks, We should watch it. I

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Speaker 2: would love to see get your take on il Bosky.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll watch it, I guess.

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Speaker 2: Oh and then wait, there's the zombies one, the recent one.

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Speaker 2: It's on Netflix. There's the one where it's a it's

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Speaker 2: like anarchists and also some fascists, but like francoists have

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Speaker 2: to team up against the Nazis and the zombies. And

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Speaker 2: it's called Valley of the Dead on Netflix. All right,

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Speaker 2: and that one doesn't take a pro fascist side, takes

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Speaker 2: an anti fascist side. Yeah. Anyway, Spanish Civil War, big

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Speaker 2: deal in history is the first real war of against

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Speaker 2: fascism in history. I already read this part, so at

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Speaker 2: least four of the surrealists are like, let's fucking go.

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Speaker 2: I think a bunch more did, but like, there's four

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Speaker 2: that I've currently tracked down, and there are two couples,

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Speaker 2: and it's actually happened a lot like couples would just

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Speaker 2: go and join the army together to go fight against

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Speaker 2: fight against the shit. Because this is one of the

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Speaker 2: also the first times you have organized military forces in

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Speaker 2: the Western world that have men and women both fighting

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Speaker 2: alongside one another. One couple. They joined the same force

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Speaker 2: that George Orwell later joined, called the Poom and these

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Speaker 2: are the anti Stalinist Marxists who basically end up allied

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Speaker 2: with the anarchists in the Civil War within a civil

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Speaker 2: war where Stalin decides to try and kill half of

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Speaker 2: his own side to consolidate the other half. The other

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Speaker 2: couple they joined the Drudi Column, which is an anarchist unit,

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Speaker 2: and I'm one of these people who went to fight.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to single out Mary Low because she's sort

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Speaker 2: of one of the most interesting. She was born in

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Speaker 2: nineteen twelve. She was a British woman and a poet,

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Speaker 2: and she became a surrealist. Her partner was a Cuban

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Speaker 2: surrealist poet named Juan Bria, who is one of the

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Speaker 2: founders of the Cuban Surrealist group, and he kept getting

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Speaker 2: arrested everywhere he went for his communist agitation, both in

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Speaker 2: Cuba and Spain, and then he kept getting in trouble

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Speaker 2: with the communists because he wasn't the right kind of

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Speaker 2: communist AKA, he wasn't a Stalinist, because he and Mary

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Speaker 2: were both Trotskyists, so they're like less authoritarian communists. Way

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Speaker 2: more of the people who end up on this show

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Speaker 2: follow the not stalin people will be surprised to know.

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Speaker 2: The other couple is a woman named Remedios Varro and

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Speaker 2: her partner Benjamin Pere. And Pere, since he's like he's

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Speaker 2: like the surrealist founder and the white guy who's fighting

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Speaker 2: in the Spanish Civil War, he's often written about as

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Speaker 2: the one surrealist who fought in the Spanish Civil War.

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Speaker 2: This is just not true. But he's cool as shit

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Speaker 2: and he fucking threw down to try and stop fascism

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Speaker 2: at the very beginning, so he's great. All four of

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Speaker 2: them fight on the Aragon Front against the fascists, all

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Speaker 2: while writing about their experiences for various newspapers. Right because

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Speaker 2: they're like, well, we're writers and artists and shit, you know,

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Speaker 2: so we will use our communication skills the best way

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Speaker 2: we can, which involves both shooting guns at fascists is

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Speaker 2: a very direct form of communication, and then also speaking

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Speaker 2: about these experiences and putting out like radio broadcasts and

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Speaker 2: newspapers and stuff. And Mary Lowe she actually funds, like

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Speaker 2: she funds the English language version of the pum's paper.

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Speaker 2: And at first I was like, oh, she's like a

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Speaker 2: rich kid right now. She right before she went to Spain,

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Speaker 2: she won a ton of money at while gam Oh nice,

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Speaker 2: she just like went and played Roulette ed La Like

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Speaker 2: hell yeah, use that money for the revolution by putting

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Speaker 2: out the English language paper for her unit, okay, And

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Speaker 2: they're also doing radio broadcasts, and Mary does an English

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Speaker 2: one and Benjamin does one in Portuguese. He's French, but

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Speaker 2: he speaks Portuguese. And then the Stalinists try to force

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Speaker 2: everyone into their command structure in the middle of this war,

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Speaker 2: and the POM and the anarchists are like, no, you

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Speaker 2: just showed up. You can't tell us that you're in charge.

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Speaker 2: And so the Stalinists are like torturing and murdering all

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Speaker 2: the other leftists and literally flaming people and shit and

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Speaker 2: being bad. Jan Bria, the Cuban surrealist. He gets arrested

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Speaker 2: twice by the Stalinists in only a few months while

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Speaker 2: he's in the middle of trying to fight their common enemy, right,

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Speaker 2: and then they try and kill him. A car tries

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Speaker 2: to run him down in an alley, and he's like,

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Speaker 2: this is a fucking movie. The way he gets out

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Speaker 2: of this assassination attempt is he is to literally break

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Speaker 2: down a door in the alley to like escape, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so the couple flees Barcelona rather than get murdered.

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Speaker 2: The other two leave Spain about four months later, I think,

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Speaker 2: for more or less the same reasons. And getting back

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Speaker 2: to France after this must have fucking sucked, right, because

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Speaker 2: this is like revolutionary Spain is like this is it.

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Speaker 2: We were doing it right. All of the things we've

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Speaker 2: dreamed of, they're actually happening. We're creating a pluralistic like

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Speaker 2: leftist revolution. We're collectivizing all these workplaces. We are like

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Speaker 2: abortion is legalized, like divorce is legal made easier. I

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Speaker 2: don't remember exactly about the divorce. I remember the abortion

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Speaker 2: part clearly. They get back to France and everything's starting

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Speaker 2: to fall apart, and Benjamin is arrested for distributing anarchist

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Speaker 2: literature by the French government and he has to flee

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Speaker 2: to Mexico. Right. Mary and Juan they're broke as hell

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Speaker 2: and they're watching the Spanish Republic fall to the comb

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Speaker 2: forces of Stalin and Franco. They hang around for a while,

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Speaker 2: they're just like living, broke as shit, and they write

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Speaker 2: a book called The Red Spanish Notebook together. Then they

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Speaker 2: go to England and get married, and then they go

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Speaker 2: to Qubo.

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Speaker 3: It came out at the same exact time as the

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Speaker 3: movie The Notebook.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Actually, Nicholas Sparks famously fought in the Spanish Civil War.

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Speaker 3: For both sides.

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Speaker 2: I actually don't know Nicholas's sparks politics. Surprise.

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Speaker 3: I think they're not good. I think he's pretty conservative.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and surprised me. I used to have to write

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Speaker 2: in Nicholas Sparks style romance books because I used to

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Speaker 2: ghost write romance books, and they were like, we want

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Speaker 2: you to write. I was not Nicholas Sparks's ghostwriter, but

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Speaker 2: I was writing where they were like, look, we're ripping

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Speaker 2: off Nicholas sparks. Can you write these books.

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Speaker 3: Fascinating?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? That was my That was my job when like

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Speaker 2: that that saved me from pretty abject poverty at one point. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: wild and I signed a non disclosure agreement, so I

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Speaker 2: can't say what they are.

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Speaker 3: Damn, that's a secret. I would like to know. Are

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Speaker 3: they like famous though?

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Speaker 1: I guess you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like, What's Funny is like one of them?

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Speaker 2: Until recently, was probably the most red thing I'd ever written. Okay,

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Speaker 2: but now, thanks dear listeners, my actual fiction is starting

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Speaker 2: to be read more than the absolute garbage that I

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Speaker 2: churned out for five thousand dollars a novel when I

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Speaker 2: had no money in my van. I lived in a van,

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Speaker 2: but my van was broken.

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Speaker 3: Is that all the more the ghostwriters get paid?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not good. A dire fucking novel for five grand.

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Speaker 2: They paid the cover photographer. It was like an Abercrombie

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Speaker 2: and Fitch photographer. They paid the photographer the same that

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Speaker 2: they paid me to like, I had three weeks to

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Speaker 2: write the book, because they this is totally what the

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Speaker 2: listeners are here for whatever, I'm gonna finish the story.

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Speaker 2: They were like, you have a month to write this,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, sure, and the whole thing sounded

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Speaker 2: so scammy that I waited for the first check to

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Speaker 2: clear before I started writing. And then I had three

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Speaker 2: weeks to write the whole thing, and I just hid

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Speaker 2: in my partner's apartment while they were teaching and listened

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Speaker 2: to Dope Throne by Sleep over and over again and

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Speaker 2: wrote terrible, the worst shit I've ever written. I'm saying, yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 2: that is like the book that they wrote, the Red

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Speaker 2: Spanish Notebook. While they were living also broke. They went

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Speaker 2: to England to get married. Oh, I almost went to

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Speaker 2: England to marry actually my partner from then, but I didn't.

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Speaker 2: They went to Cuba for a while, then they traveled

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Speaker 2: around Europe, and then they had to flee the Nazi

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Speaker 2: occupation of Prague and literal Nazi custody right, and they

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Speaker 2: used the help of some literary friends to get out

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Speaker 2: of Nazi custody and got the fuck back to Cuba

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Speaker 2: to just follow just close out their story. One died

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Speaker 2: of this or that illness in nineteen forty one. Mary

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Speaker 2: married another Trotzkist and helped overthrow the Cuban capital's government,

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Speaker 2: all while raising a bunch of kids, then fucking Stalinists.

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Speaker 2: She'd settled into the Revolutionary society as a professor, being like, hooray,

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Speaker 2: we've made a communism. Her husband was a his civil servant,

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Speaker 2: and then Castro was like, hey, sorry, I have to

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Speaker 2: persecute all the Communish aren't exactly the right kind of communist.

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Speaker 2: So the couple had to flee. This time they went

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Speaker 2: to Florida. I think Margaret complains about Stalinists. This is

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Speaker 2: probably the free space and cool people did cool stuff bingo.

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Speaker 2: But Mary lived a long ass time stay in suru

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Speaker 2: to or politics right to the end. She died in

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Speaker 2: Miami in two thousand and seven at ninety four years old.

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Speaker 2: And if you want to live to ninety four years old,

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Speaker 2: what are you promising near bag cut supplements? Right? Isn't

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Speaker 2: that a thing we should start selling? Is that a

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Speaker 2: cool thing? If we could promise people eternal life? Vamporism, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there we go.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, where's that?

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Speaker 1: Say? We try to not do the supplement stuff, and okay, vamporism.

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Speaker 1: Most of them give me the grifterick.

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Speaker 2: How much would you pay Kaylin Durante to become a vampire?

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Speaker 2: Five dollars, ten dollars, one thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: I mean something. I didn't hear the first part of

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Speaker 3: your question because I was drinking more of my pur.

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Speaker 2: Trying to avoid burpan. How much would you pay to

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Speaker 2: become a vampire?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Wow? Honestly, here's the thing. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: live that long, okay, and I don't want to have

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Speaker 3: to eat people, So I would pay zero dollars.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So you would choose to not become a vampire? Yeah, yes, Sophie,

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Speaker 2: would you become a vampire?

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Speaker 1: All I'm saying is there was one time in Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles where I ran into the really really really mega

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Speaker 1: baybelicious guys who played the vampire in the Vampire Diaries,

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Speaker 1: the two brothers. That was really fun for me.

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Speaker 2: So you're already a vampires? What you're telling me, That's

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying, is do they I've never seen you outside?

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Speaker 1: They are they included in the vampires?

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Speaker 2: Because that would change my answer.

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Speaker 1: So much. Also, I hope that guy's dog.

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Speaker 3: Is well, Ah, did you put his dog?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was.

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Speaker 1: I literally ignored the men and just talked to the

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Speaker 1: dog the entire times, as you do.

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Speaker 3: I was like I would pay a lot of money

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Speaker 3: to become a dog.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I'd pay a lot of money become my

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Speaker 1: dog has a great.

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Speaker 2: Life, yeah, spoiled A spoiled dog.

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Speaker 1: Ye a podcast, A podcast dog.

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Speaker 2: I would become a vampire. I don't to eat people,

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Speaker 2: and I'm squeamish, but I feel like I like owe it,

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Speaker 2: you know, like like turning down that much power. That

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Speaker 2: could be like, let's do.

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Speaker 1: It, magpilots start. Let's start it, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, So we are selling vamporism. If you give us

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Speaker 2: your first born child? Is that a that's not how still?

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00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well we'll figure it out and then insert

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Speaker 2: the following ad for vamporism.

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Speaker 1: You just have to on the vampire diars. You just

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Speaker 1: have to somebody. You have to pay somebody who's already

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Speaker 1: a vampire to put give you some of their blood

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Speaker 1: and then murder you. And then you have to bribe

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Speaker 1: a human to give them your blood so that you

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Speaker 1: fully are a vampire. You're welcome. I have friends.

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Speaker 2: We all do. You're not the main person. I talk

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Speaker 2: to you all the time. And what you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Here's ads and we are back and we're talking about

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Speaker 2: Prague which is basically the land of vampires. Actually, ironically,

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Speaker 2: it'll come up later. One of the reasons that surrealis

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Speaker 2: love the Progue surrealists, the prayer of surrealists love the

404
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: prog cerealists, is because they were like your city's so

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Speaker 2: like mystical and magical and like anti rationalists and steeped

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Speaker 2: in like basically, they're all like vampire fans, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're like, this is cool, which I mean. I also

408
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 2: felt the like week I spent drunk in Prague when

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Speaker 2: I was like twenty, so Mary Lowe was. Mary low

410
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Speaker 2: had a much worse time in Prague than I did.

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Speaker 2: She was bravely in Prague before it fell to the Nazis.

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Speaker 2: While she was there, she was hanging out with the

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Speaker 2: Progue surrealists who were cool as fuck. And we're gonna

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Speaker 2: use another non binary or trens masculine hero named Toyan

415
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Speaker 2: as our example, and this time I'm gonna use he

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Speaker 2: hymn pronouns because I have a bit more evidence that

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Speaker 2: this person who's like assigned female at birth would have

418
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Speaker 2: preferred either those or maybe they them. And Toyen also

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Speaker 2: is like one of those people who's like I only

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Speaker 2: have one name. It's toy In, which is fucking cool.

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Speaker 2: Toyen was born in nineteen oh two and when he

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Speaker 2: was sixteen, he was kicked out of his house for

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Speaker 2: being an anarchist. He started working at a soap factory

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Speaker 2: to afford to get to go to art school in Prague,

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Speaker 2: which I guess is a thing you can do as

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Speaker 2: a runaway in Prague in the late nineteen tens. Is

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Speaker 2: go to art school based on working in a factory.

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Speaker 2: One of those things that people are like, we've come

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Speaker 2: so far, and I'm like, have we He's hanging around

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Speaker 2: with all the cool artsy anarchist types and he's going

431
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 2: to organizing meetings and shit. By nineteen twenty three, he

432
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 2: changes his name to toy In, which is a play

433
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 2: on words. He has like a bunch of different It's

434
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: like data where they're like, oh it's this, no, it's that, No,

435
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: it's this other thing, you know, but it probably roughly

436
00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: means it is he in check and he refused to

437
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 2: use feminine endings for words describing himself. And he wore

438
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 2: men's clothing and he also wore women's clothing. He dated

439
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: mostly women, but had two His like life partners were

440
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: probably platonic art relationships with men m and he also

441
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: once declared that he took his own virginity. I think

442
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: when people were like because everyone was like, well, you're

443
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: a girl, so let's talk about who you fuck. And

444
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 2: he's like, I fuck myself like that Banks songs and

445
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 2: it's a pop song and I know it. Maybe it's

446
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: not actually a popular one. Maybe I know it because

447
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: it sounds like a goth song. Anyway, I actually don't

448
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: know this. Wait, it is this this artist Banks, who's

449
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: a pop singer I really like, who has a song

450
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 2: called like fuck with Myself? Like I fuck with myself

451
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: more than anybody else.

452
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 3: Nice, Okay, I'll listen to it and I might realize

453
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 3: I recognize it.

454
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: I learned about it from an article that was like,

455
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 2: here are pop musicians who make music videos as if

456
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: they are Trent Resoner from nine inch Nails. That's also

457
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: how I learned about shit, what's their name? Fucking most

458
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: popular person in this vein She got famous when she

459
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: was like fifteen and everyone was a creep. Billie Eilish Mmmm. Oh,

460
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 2: that's also who I learned about from that article that

461
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: I read like ten years ago. Anyway, Toyen mostly drew erotica,

462
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: lots of stuff with like male and female forms all

463
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: mixed up, and he illustrated Marquis de Sad's writing like

464
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: the person the word Sadism comes from. He is like

465
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 2: very unabashedly into sex and sexual stuff. Right in nineteen

466
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: thirty four, he helped form the Czech Surrealist group, but

467
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: he was also always trying to hustle up money in

468
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: that awesome proletarian artist way, the equivalent of ghostwriting novels.

469
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: He writes a travel guide to pair for Chech speakers.

470
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: He designs fabrics, He designs book covers. Klin, Have you

471
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: had to do weird shit like this for money?

472
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. There was a whole I want to say,

473
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: like nine months where I had cobbled together several jobs.

474
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 3: One of them I was a delivery driver for Hooter's restaurant.

475
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: I was an assistant at the same time, because I

476
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 3: was like a part time maybe like fifteen hours a

477
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 3: week kind of thing, because no one ordered Hooter's delivery

478
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: can you imagine.

479
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not really known for those food.

480
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: No.

481
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: At the same time, I was an assistant to a

482
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: guy who was like a talent scout, but he specifically

483
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 3: scouted for men to be in jerk off videos for

484
00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 3: subscription based gay porn websites. Oh yeah, so do.

485
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: You have to like approach guys and be like, hey,

486
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 2: I'd watch you jerk off.

487
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 3: No, but that could be considered harassment. Probably wouldn't have

488
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 3: done it all change in my plans for tomorrow. But

489
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 3: I did have to field a lot of like email

490
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 3: responses we got, and I had to write a lot

491
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: of ad copy for ads that we would post on

492
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 3: Craigslist to be like, hey, we're looking for muscular men

493
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: for a cool opportunity.

494
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: Something you do all the time anyway, Just film.

495
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 3: It, yeah, exactly, get paid to do it. That was

496
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: literally part of the selling point of our ads. And

497
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 3: then I had like a bunch of other internships at

498
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 3: the same time that were weird, but yeah it was

499
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 3: I've done my fair share of goofy ass jobs.

500
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and I like the like, you know, okay,

501
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: here's the cool, Like eventually he's going to be known

502
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: as like the most famous painter and most famous woman

503
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: painter in twentieth century Progue or Czech Republic. And then

504
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: just like he's like, eh, whatever, you know, writing these

505
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: books that are probably complete garbage. Maybe they're great, actually,

506
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: maybe they're incredible travel guides for Paris for Czech speakers.

507
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: Well never, no, no, Probably someone will know, but it

508
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: won't be me. There was tension in the surrealist movement

509
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: pretty much as soon as the Czech Surrealist group started,

510
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: because all of the political stuff from Paris was starting

511
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: to come to a head around this time, and so

512
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: there's this tension between Stalinism and freedom right in the

513
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: surrealist movement and in Prague. While Breton and some others

514
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: from Paris are visiting visiting the nineteen thirty five because

515
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: they're obsessed with the Czech surrealists, they're like, oh my god,

516
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: you all are so authentic. You're like spooky, you know,

517
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: you live in like this booky city, which is like whatever,

518
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: Like that's how again, that's how I felt when I

519
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: was there. Sure, So while they were there, they got

520
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: into a literal fight in the streets with Soviet delegates

521
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: because the Soviet delegates accused, or a Soviet delegate accused

522
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: the Surrealus of pederasty. And in this case they didn't

523
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: mean we think you have sex with children or promote

524
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: sex with children. It was like, y'all are gay, because

525
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: there was a long period of time where that's coming

526
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: back where you can decide that anyone who's you know,

527
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: it's basically be like your groomors, you know, right. And

528
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: so there's one version where they got into a fist

529
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: fight about it. There's one version where it wasn't like

530
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: a two way fist fight and said Breton slapped the

531
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: Soviet delegate in the face several times, which it does

532
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: hit the point of like you slap someone, You're like, well, one,

533
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: that's not part of my daily life, right, but you're

534
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: like you slap someone several times, it's like it's now

535
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: you're really fucking mad. And there's a couple I've read

536
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: a bunch of different ways of how to interpret this.

537
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: One that I seems to be the most likely is

538
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: basically the surrealis are fighting physically to defend their right

539
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: to include queer artists and queer themes and specifically like

540
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: to not drive out the fact that there's a fuck

541
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: ton of openly gay surrealists at this point, and this

542
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: anti gay repression coming from the proper communist left led

543
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: to the suicide of one gay surrealist named Renee Creval,

544
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: and most of his friends defended him after his death.

545
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: This is like where they're like the kind of like

546
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: splits that sort of are like almost like jokes to

547
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: me in the twenties, right where they're like, oh, well

548
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: you fuck you, no, fuck you. At this point, it's

549
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: like Stalinism has driven this kid to kill themself, right yeah,

550
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: And most people are like, fuck the Communist Party, We're

551
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: getting the fuck out of this nightmare. And others are like, no,

552
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: the immortal science of Marxist Leninism just demands that I

553
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: spit on my gay friend's grave. Fuck those people, because

554
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: and I pay more attention to historical drama than present

555
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: day politics.

556
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: I mean, history repeats itself, so whatever was happening back

557
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: then is basically still happening.

558
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: I know. Like the current version of this is the

559
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: turf stuff. The current version is like, you know, these

560
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: people who are ostensibly on the left talking about like

561
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 2: throwing half of us out and a group that is

562
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: the reason that transpaport pronos socide is repression. It's like

563
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: the solely there's nothing about who we are. It's not

564
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: that we're like mixed up, it's that we're being told

565
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: we're bad, right, you know. Anyway, this split the hell

566
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: out of the PROG group too, where the confrontation had happened.

567
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: When the Nazis took over in nineteen thirty nine, they

568
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: explicitly ban toy In from presenting his work publicly. They

569
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: were like, you're on the list of degenerates, right, You're

570
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: not Jewish, so we're not going to kill you. But

571
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: unless you step out of line or do anything, which

572
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: case will kill you, but you're.

573
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 3: Not allowed to.

574
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: So he spends all lot of his time underground, like directly,

575
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: like actually hiding, but since most of his time doing

576
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: his work underground and then living above ground and then

577
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: hiding a bunch of Jewish surrealist and anti fascists, including

578
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: his Jewish partner, like platonic partner. I think they actually

579
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: try to escape when the Nazis first take power. But

580
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: there's this fucking piece of shit who's like robbing people,

581
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: trying to be like, oh I got you, I'll set

582
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: you up, I'll get you out here, and it's just

583
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: like a scam, right, So he hides his Jewish partner,

584
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: and until that Jewish partner died of illness in nineteen

585
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: forty two, so during the occupation, and then hit at

586
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: least one other Jewish anti fascist for the entire course

587
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: of the war, I don't know how many, and then

588
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: also kept organizing surrealist stuff completely illegally, publishing degenerate art

589
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: at great risk, including like our other non binary surrealist

590
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: a bunch of calls for Nazis to defend. This is

591
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: like a huge thing of what surrealists are doing. Is

592
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: like you're clearly on the evil side, Like you're the baddies.

593
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 2: What are you doing? You know? One Jewish surrealist photographer

594
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: that he hit is named Yindrich Hasler, who developed new

595
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 2: art techniques like new dioramic techniques of like super macro

596
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: photo close ups and shit like for his art while

597
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: living in Toyen's bathroom. Whoa, which is just like a

598
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: fucking cool way to invent I mean, it's an awful,

599
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: horrible way to invent a new form of art, but

600
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: it's also fucking cool, you know. And apparently this guy,

601
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: the way he would escape from like Nazis they'd come

602
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 2: by in search everywhere, you know, is that when when

603
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: the Nazis were coming, he'd like gaily skip down the

604
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: front steps and like wave hello and then just like

605
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: head off, you know, like at a jaunt as if

606
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 2: he's like totally nonplussed about there being Nazis coming, so

607
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 2: he's not worried at all. So everyone just so they're

608
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: just like hey, I belong see it, you know.

609
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he that's wild.

610
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he survives, and Toyan survives, and the other

611
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: his partner doesn't survive. But that well, I'm sure the

612
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: Nazi occupation probably I don't know, if you die because

613
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 2: you have to live in your partner's bathroom and hide

614
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: from Nazis and you die of illness, I'll put that

615
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 2: one on the Nazis.

616
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

617
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Fortunately it was liberated. Unfortunately it immediately fell to

618
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: the USSR. Toyen and his partner, his new partner moved

619
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: to Paris, where he spent the rest of his life.

620
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: He has broke as fuck, but the Surrealists support him. Basically,

621
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: they actually are a community and they're actually built on

622
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: mutual aid. They're like, oh, you're toy In, Like yeah,

623
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 2: Like like Breton's like sure, stay in my apartment as

624
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: long as you want, and like means it literally, and

625
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: like I think he lives Breton for years, you know. Yeah,

626
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: and so like the famous ones, the ones who like

627
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: make it in the art world are like fucking pain.

628
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: Everyone else's rent, you know, fucking rules. Yeah, and he's

629
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 2: Antoya is fucking weird the whole rest of his life.

630
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 2: He's so cool. When he's hanging out with people and

631
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: feels that they lack poetry, he just doesn't talk. He's

632
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 2: just like quiet the whole time. He refers to it

633
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: as putting on his spacesuit.

634
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 3: Okay, that's wow, what a flex. It's like, you're boring,

635
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 3: So I'm not even gonna dignify your existence by speaking.

636
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in his seventies he still made his time,

637
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 2: made time to go see porn in the theaters every

638
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: day or every week or something nice. He died broke

639
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty and is now considered the Czech Republic's

640
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: most important twentieth century quote unquote woman artist. During his life,

641
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: he illustrated five hundred and seventy books and left behind

642
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: dozens of paintings. I really like his art. I know,

643
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 2: I'm like mostly not talking about these people's art, but

644
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 2: his some of my favorite.

645
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 3: Of you spell it. I'm going to do another Google

646
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 3: image y e n y n okay, yeah, oh, I

647
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 3: want to describe what you say imagery yeah, and vaginas

648
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 3: oh yeah, and some other stuff that I can't quite

649
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 3: put into words.

650
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: That's surrealism, baby. Anyway, After the war, surrealism it seemed

651
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: as like surrealism like kind of goes away during the

652
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 2: war in most people's mind because it stops being the

653
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: darling of the art world in the same way. But

654
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: it doesn't go away in after the war, surrealism starts

655
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: a more overt association with the Anarchist Federation. They're like,

656
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: we're fucking done with this communist thing like or this

657
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 2: you know, staliny thing. They start writing for the French

658
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: Anarchists Federation. At this point, they start refusing to take sides.

659
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: They there's growth here. When when the French Anarchists Federation

660
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: keeps having it's it's like dumb splits, the surrealists are like,

661
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 2: we're not taking sides in any of that shit. We like,

662
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: we're actually all on the same side here. Get the

663
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: grow the fuck up. Surrealism becomes a bigger deal again

664
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: in the sixties, both under the name surrealism, including having

665
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: spread to the US, where like the Chicago Surrealists Group Champions.

666
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 2: It develops the phrase make Love not War, and threw

667
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: down alongside the students for Democratic Society, who keep showing

668
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: up in a bunch of my episodes, and also through

669
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 2: its ideological descendants, probably the most famous of which are

670
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: the situationists and situationists in France. But I want to

671
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: cut back in time to before ads. No, this transition

672
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: isn't yeah more or less. Here's where I was gonna say,

673
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: I trying to sell you stuff. But honestly, other people

674
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,959
Speaker 2: use my work to try and sell you stuff, which

675
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: is fine.

676
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: This is what it is.

677
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: Ill gotta eat. My dog is hungry. I'm hungry. I

678
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: keep kind of losing track of things. What's happening.

679
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: Here's here's miserableism at its peak.

680
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah as really is actually yeah, and we're back, so okay.

681
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: But I'm actually going to cut back in time now

682
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: talk about some other shit that the surrealist got up to,

683
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: some other people that they were inspired by, and some

684
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: other people that they inspired, because I want to tell

685
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: you a story about three different French murderouses. It's one

686
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: of my favorite words. I don't normally like. I know

687
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: that the word for a female actors actor, you know,

688
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 2: but like right.

689
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, like genderize what should just be a gender neutral term.

690
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: And like murderer is that it's core gender neutral term,

691
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: But I like the active feminization of it. I like

692
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: murderous because I will argue that a murderous is, on

693
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 2: average a different kind of person than a male murderer,

694
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: which we would call, yeah, a ware murderer. Uh probably

695
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 2: if we're using mister murderer. Yeah, okay, because I'm going

696
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 2: to go on a tangent. Years ago, I had this friend.

697
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: We all lived in this giant mansion full of depressed

698
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: punks and goths in Nashville, North Carolina. One of my

699
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: roommates lived on the back porch and a coffin that

700
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: she had built. She was another Yeah, she was weird.

701
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: She's another trans woman, though neither of us knew it

702
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: back then. She would have called herself a drag queen

703
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: back then, and I would have called myself repressed. She

704
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: taught me how to shave well enough to pass, oh

705
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: to be twenty two or whatever? Shave right put on

706
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: address anyway. Another roommate lived in an airstream out back

707
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 2: and had kinky sex so loud we could hear it inside.

708
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: I lived in a loft in the basement where I

709
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: couldn't sit up without hitting my head on pipes covered

710
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: an asbestos. But another roommate, there's an awful lot of

711
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: roommates who lived in this place. Her mom owned a

712
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: costume shop and only hired murderouses because like, after they

713
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 2: get out of prison, right, not while they're because, as

714
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: she pointed out, they make the best employees. They need work,

715
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: no one will hire them. But a murderous, most murderous

716
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 2: has just killed some fucking dude who needs a killing.

717
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: Like most are won and done. They're like, my husband

718
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: kept doing horrible things, so now he's dead.

719
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 3: So now I killed him. Yeah, so they get stuff done. Yeah,

720
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 3: they see the need for a task, they show initiatives,

721
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 3: and they get that shit done.

722
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Eventually, unrelated to that, the house mysteriously burned down.

723
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: Oh h, not the costume shop, to the house that

724
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 2: we all lived in. I didn't live there anymore. I

725
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: couldn't stand I was paying rent where I like three

726
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 2: months earlier, I'd been living for free in a giant

727
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 2: mansion of a squat in Amsterdam where there was no asbestos,

728
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: And I was like this is clearly I'm in the

729
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: wrong country and I went back to Amsterdam. But nineteen

730
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: thirties murderesses. On August twenty first, nineteen thirty three, an

731
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 2: eighteen year old woman named Violet Nozare poisoned her parents,

732
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: slipping them barbituates in their drinks. Her father died, her

733
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: mother survived. She fucked off with some of their money

734
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: and was caught pretty much right away. She confessed, and

735
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 2: she gave her motive immediately to the officer who arrested her.

736
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 2: Her father had been sexually assaulting her for six years,

737
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: and the French press rushed to see who could accuse

738
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: her of being a liar. The soonest, odious accusations an

739
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 2: abominable lie. Are some headlines. The judge opened the case

740
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: by telling the jury quote, remember the defendant is a liar.

741
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: It's not a good way to be a judge.

742
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 3: Wow.

743
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: The cop who took her confession believed her, so he

744
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to testify. Oh my god, after all, she

745
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: is a filthy slut. She took the metro by herself.

746
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: She hung around with bad boys who, according to the paper,

747
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: wore a quote jackets of extremely narrow waist and coat

748
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: hanger shoulders with Mexican style trousers, and the newsapers just

749
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: went on and on. This is like the big thing

750
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: that they're fucking talking about. Also, gasp, she might have

751
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 2: done sex work. Hating her is all the rage. One

752
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: paper said, quote, she is the inverted muse of youth,

753
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: the scarlet idol of a capsized world, the flower of

754
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: evil of our age.

755
00:43:58,520 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 3: Sounds awesome to me.

756
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 2: I know. Surrealists like this too. Yeah, yeah, like Flooria

757
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 2: Dumal flower of Evil. That is the name of one

758
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 2: of their favorite books of poetry by Bold There it's

759
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three. So the smart part of the left

760
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: is like, are you fucking kidding me? This is all

761
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: we can talk about. Not I don't know the Nazis

762
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 2: in the next country over that came to power right now,

763
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: maybe we should do something about that. Other parts of

764
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: the left wanted to condemn her. The Communist Party friend

765
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: of the pod was like, she's hanging out with decadent

766
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 2: bourgeois students, so she's like bad or whatever, you know,

767
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: And the right is like, fuck her. She's destroying the

768
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: natural social hierarchy of patriarchy and family. She had two

769
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: categories of supporters. She had, the women who wrote the

770
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: papers trying one hundred years too early to be believed

771
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 2: in kind of like a me too sort of way.

772
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 2: And then there are the Surrealists, who probably a lot

773
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 2: of them were women who were writing from a met

774
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 2: to perspective. Right. The Surrealists wrote endlessly in support of her.

775
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: They published a book of poetry and artwork in her

776
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 2: honor while the trial was happening. Paul l u Ard,

777
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 2: a Surrealist poet, wrote in there quote, Violet dreamt of

778
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: undoing and undid the hideous vipers, not of blood connections.

779
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: Who.

780
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know what that means, but it sounds poetic. Yeah.

781
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: In nineteen thirty four, she was convicted and sentenced to death. Ironically,

782
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: she did not get put to death. Ironically, it was

783
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: it was the v She government, the Nazi collaborationist government

784
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: that freedom that set her up to be freed because

785
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: they're super conservative, right, but they're conservative Catholic and she's

786
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: decided to dedicate herself to Catholicism in prison, whether earnestly

787
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 2: or slyly. And v She France was all conservative Catholics.

788
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: The Nazis hated the Catholics, but the right wing in

789
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: France and Spain fucking loved the Catholic. So here's the

790
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 2: story of redemption, the fallen woman who found God or

791
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,720
Speaker 2: whatever the fuck, and so her sentences changed to twelve years.

792
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 2: She gets out in nineteen forty five. She marries a

793
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 2: middle class dude like a prison clerk, has five kids

794
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: with them, and then diaza cancer in her fifties. But

795
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 2: she joined the ranks of the surrealist heroines for killing

796
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 2: her abuser and breaking free of the patriarchal family. And

797
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 2: this is alongside another scandalous case at the time in

798
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three also when two sisters who are servants

799
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 2: for some rich focks finally they just like can't take

800
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: it anymore and they killed a shit out of they

801
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 2: They gouge the eyes out and beat to death both

802
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 2: their mistress and her daughter. Yeah, their case is very

803
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: true crime podcast. There's probably a true crime prodcast about this,

804
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: if not Sophie.

805
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 3: Now there's another spinoff podcast.

806
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: Cool Times. Actually, I mean this podcast is true crime,

807
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 2: but in a good way. It's pretty much like some

808
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 2: of it. Very little of what I talk about is legally.

809
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's ethically.

810
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, people who did cool things that boring people

811
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 3: would consider crime, but it's actually awesome.

812
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally green lighted title.

813
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's very true crime podcast. After they killed

814
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 2: their boss and her daughter, they locked themselves in their room,

815
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: like the room that they stay in it is live

816
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 2: in servants, you know, and huddle like naked on the

817
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 2: bed until the police kick in the door. And there's

818
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 2: lots of like the newspapers are like, oh, it was

819
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: like incest and they'd performed sexual rituals with the bodies,

820
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:56,399
Speaker 2: and you know what, that's possible. It seems far more

821
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: likely that their version of the story is true, which

822
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 2: is that it was self defense against a horrible, cruel mistress.

823
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: The second affair was immortalized in a play called The

824
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 2: Maids by a by a guy named Jean Jannat and

825
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: I want to talk about him in our last little profile.

826
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 2: In this Exquisite Corpse, get it because there's corpses.

827
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 3: Oh oh, they killed those people and it's exquisite. I know.

828
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 2: Okay, there probably is a podcast called the Exquisite Corpse

829
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: that's like a there's so many bad puns I want

830
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: to do with. Okay, anyway, Jean Jonnay is tangential to

831
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: the Surrealists, sort of descended from them as best as

832
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 2: I can understand. I just think he's really cool, so

833
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about him. He was born in

834
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: nineteen ten, and he got going in the arts after

835
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 2: World War Two, so he wasn't as much a part

836
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: of the Surrealist heyday. Because while this we'll talk about

837
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: what he was doing during the Surrealist heyday, but he

838
00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 2: ends up a part of the theater of the absurd

839
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 2: that came after the Surrealists. And this guy is the

840
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: opposite of a trust fund kid. This is a very

841
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 2: crime part that's coming up. Jean Jannat is a thief,

842
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 2: a sex worker, a vagabond, a queer, and a prisoner.

843
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: Those are his main occupations before he becomes a world

844
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: famous novelist and playwright and pro Palestinian activist. We stand,

845
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: Jean Janet. I promised you I would you stand? In

846
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: the script?

847
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go.

848
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. He was born in nineteen ten to a sex

849
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 2: worker who gave him up for adoption before he turned one.

850
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 2: He was placed with a foster family and he kept

851
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 2: getting arrested and running away and like spent time in

852
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 2: like detention centers. When he was like ten, he would

853
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: sneak out at night wearing makeup. He started stealing and

854
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: getting arrested for vagrancy. By the time he was fifteen,

855
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: he was sent to a penal colony, which I thought

856
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 2: meant like sent to South America, but it actually is

857
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: just sort of a in this case, like a crime

858
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 2: boarding school whatever. You call those places, A bad prison for.

859
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 3: Kids, you know, juvenile that's a tension yeah center.

860
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Actual, they don't want to call prison for kids

861
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 2: for some weird reason. It's nice a ring, it's catchy,

862
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 2: you know, prison for kids. Why his prison bad? I

863
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 2: thought it was help to make people better. I don't

864
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: know what you're talking about.

865
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 3: Right, It's almost as if they know that it's bad.

866
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: Weird anyway.

867
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: Uh.

868
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: He gets out when he's eighteen, I guess because he's

869
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 2: an adult. Now. He joins the French Foreign Legion, but

870
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: he's pretty much immediately dishonorably discharged for doing some cool

871
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 2: gay shit like having sex. So he fucks off around

872
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: Europe as a vagabond, sex worker and a thief. In particular,

873
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 2: he liked to steal rare books and sell them in

874
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 2: the Shadow of Notre Dame, which is just classy cool.

875
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: He was raised Catholic and he loved all the ceremonies

876
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: and rites, and he despised organized religion. Near the end

877
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: of his life, he's actually he's hanging out in a

878
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: Palestinian refugee camp where he like lives for six months

879
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: and is doing all this work. And they're like, what religion,

880
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 2: and he's like, none, but if you insist Catholic and

881
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 2: I really identify with that. So yeah, he spent almost

882
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: all of World War Two in French prison, so he

883
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 2: wasn't like a political activist, right, He's just a fucking prisoner.

884
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: And he starts writing. He starts writing in prison, and

885
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: he writes stories about all the cool crime stuff he's

886
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 2: been up to, and he like sexualizes the role of

887
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 2: the prisoner in society. The only thing I've read by

888
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 2: him is I've read chunks of the Thieves Journal, and

889
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 2: it's just like, basically, it's like I adore all of

890
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: these like hyper masculine men in prison who all like

891
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 2: hide things in their butt and want to have sex

892
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 2: with me. It's pretty fun. And it's funny because the

893
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: stuff that gets you condemned literally to spend your life

894
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: behind bars. The literary crowd eats up. Not that I

895
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 2: capitalize off that myself. No, sir, he wasn't a famous

896
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: writer yet. He started his first novel, Our Lady of

897
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 2: the Flowers, on his like prison job that he was

898
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: supposed to be making paper bags out of like brown paper,

899
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: you know, And so he's like writing his novel on it.

900
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 2: So they burn his first draft and send him to solitary,

901
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 2: and he had to rewrite the entire book from memory,

902
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 2: which he claims he like did it word for word.

903
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 2: I don't believe him, but I don't care. He got out,

904
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 2: and he kept getting arrested again, and he was about

905
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: to get a life sentence in nineteen forty nine under

906
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 2: the notorious ten strikes your outlaw, which is like, I mean, yeah,

907
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:32,439
Speaker 2: I gu it's fair.

908
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 3: I mean, say what you will about the prison industrial complex,

909
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 3: but apparently they give you a lot of chance.

910
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, at this particular time and place, I wonder the

911
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: fact that like the government has changed so many times,

912
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,959
Speaker 2: you know. So he's about to get sent to prison

913
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 2: for the rest of his life. And I mean, I

914
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: actually do think if you're up to like petty crime,

915
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 2: you should never be whatever. I don't believe we should

916
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 2: have prisons, but like, if you're doing petty shit, it

917
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,439
Speaker 2: shouldn't be like all the petty equals throw you away

918
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: for life, Like that just doesn't. But the literary world,

919
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: in the art world is like, no, he's our guy,

920
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: and like Sart and Picasso are like, no, police, don't

921
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 2: imprison him. We're famous and we like him, and they're

922
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 2: like okay. So he goes free and he actually never

923
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 2: goes back to prison again. And all this time he's

924
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: sort of obsessively non political, or at least he's read

925
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 2: that way. I would argue that he's a nihilist. He

926
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: is functionally a nihilist anarchist at this point. He's against politics,

927
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 2: but he's writing about anti colonialism and anti racism and

928
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: against all institutions of power. He loves all rebels, including

929
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: people doing lots of bad shit too, right, He's just like, oh,

930
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 2: you're fucking a rebel. I'm like criminal. Queer is its

931
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: own political position, and eventually when he finds like more

932
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 2: traditional ideological politics, it's somewhere in the anarchist communist spectrum,

933
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: which is in the late sixties. He in the late sixties,

934
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 2: he gets involved more politically. He spent six months in

935
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: refugee camps. He makes friends with the Black Panthers. He

936
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 2: starts writing in the Black Panther Papers. He sneaks into

937
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 2: the US, like multiple times, illegally because the US is like, no,

938
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 2: you can't come in here. You're just a crime guy.

939
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 2: And he's like, but I want to come and they're like, no,

940
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 2: you're a crime man. And he's like, all right, I'll

941
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 2: go to Canada and then walk over or whatever. I

942
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 2: don't know how he sneaks in, but he sneaks in

943
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 2: multiple times. And in France he's getting involved in the

944
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: fight against police brutality of like Algerians, like basically, you know,

945
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 2: black people in Paris are getting murdered and ship by cops,

946
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 2: and he's fighting against that. During the uprising in France

947
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty eight, he writes one of my favorite

948
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 2: quotes about revolutionary symbolism that I've ever read, which is, unfortunately,

949
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 2: I don't think we can win without the red and

950
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: black flags, but they must be destroyed afterwards, which is like,

951
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 2: I think a really useful way to think about labels, right,

952
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 2: being like, are these politically useful to us, then we

953
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 2: should consider them, but they are not our goal, you

954
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 2: know or not? A goal is not to have a

955
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 2: specific ideological position, right. Another quote I like by him

956
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 2: one time he was giving a speech to a Yale

957
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: audience and he his quote was basically like, your universities

958
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 2: are quote comfortable aquariums where people raise goldfish capable of

959
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 2: nothing more than blowing bubbles.

960
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 3: That's awesome.

961
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he's not a surrealist, but he was inspired

962
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 2: by them, by like the same shit as them, because

963
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: he writes a play about those maids. He murdered their employers,

964
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 2: and I only sort of a descendant of them, and

965
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 2: I just think he's cool, So I want to shoehorn him,

966
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 2: shoehorn him in.

967
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

968
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: He died at seventy five as one of the most

969
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 2: acclaimed French writers of the twentieth century, which ain't bad

970
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 2: for a criminal queer. And that is where derive ends

971
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 2: for now or are exquisite corpse? It ends with some

972
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 2: gouged out ladies on the floor, killed by some other ladies.

973
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 2: There are so many more corpses. I guess they all

974
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: do die. So we're all corps isn't waiting?

975
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 3: We're all I'm just currently a live corpse.

976
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, Britton and Pere are both cool as hell, and

977
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 2: it didn't get included Max Ernston, Leona Carrington or cool

978
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: as hell. They all ran all over the world, chased

979
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: by this or that oppressive force, with the politics aiming

980
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 2: further and further towards real liberation, and they inspired people everywhere.

981
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 2: And I think they're cool. I think the Surrealists were

982
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 2: even cooler than I already thought they were when I

983
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 2: started this.

984
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:39,879
Speaker 3: I agree, and thank you for teaching me all about them.

985
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just for you. Actually, this is a secret one.

986
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's amazing how I'm the only person who will

987
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 3: ever hear this.

988
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 2: You know, Sophie's just had headphones like earplugs in the

989
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 2: whole time too, So's.

990
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 3: Sophie were on now you can listen.

991
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 2: What but speaking of ear plugs, what about Caitlin. No,

992
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: that's the worst. No, that's bout that was Actually.

993
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 3: That was a great transition, great pun. And here are

994
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 3: my plugs which will go into everyone's ears. Whoa ear plugs.

995
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 3: You can follow me online if you wish, at Caitlyn Durante.

996
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 3: You can listen to my podcast, The Bechdel Cast in

997
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 3: which Jamie Loftus and I and often guests discuss movies

998
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 3: through an intersectional feminist lens. And we have a live

999
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 3: show that we are doing in Portland, Oregon, which I

1000
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 3: know is not how you say that, but it's too late,

1001
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 3: and that's how I said it. The show is October sixth,

1002
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 3: which I think is right around the corner of when

1003
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 3: this episode comes out. You can go to link tree

1004
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 3: slash Bechtel Cast to grab tickets if they're not already

1005
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 3: sold out, but I mean brag, they probably will be

1006
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 3: people people you can oh the live stream exactly, so

1007
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, Sophie, you're a genius. If the show

1008
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 3: is sold out the live show, you can live stream

1009
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 3: it from anywhere in the world.

1010
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: Uh.

1011
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 3: And if you can't make it to the actual like

1012
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 3: live stream as it's happening, you can still buy a

1013
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 3: live stream ticket and check out the stream for like

1014
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 3: up to a week afterward. So there's ways to see

1015
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 3: Jamie and I talk about the movie say anything. And

1016
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 3: then I'm also doing a bunch of stand up in

1017
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 3: Portland as well as Vancouver, but I think my Vancouver

1018
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 3: shows will already be done. But check out my website

1019
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 3: Caitlinduronta dot com for details about all of those shows.

1020
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 2: Yah yay, I have things. I have a sub stack.

1021
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 2: I post on it every week. Half of them are free.

1022
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 2: If you want to hear the more personal stuff for

1023
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 2: me talking about punk cows as I've lived in that

1024
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 2: have burned down. That's the which I do. Okay, well

1025
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: that's the not free half. Although, Caitlin, if you give

1026
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: me your email a dress to add you to the

1027
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 2: thank you but not you listener, but half the shit's free.

1028
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 2: I don't feel guilty about this, and it's just like

1029
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 2: literally my more personal shit that isn't And also I

1030
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 2: have a thing that is probably kickstarting as you are

1031
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 2: listening to this called Defenders of the Wild, which has

1032
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 2: is a board game and role playing game, and I've

1033
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 2: been doing some world design on both, but I'm especially

1034
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 2: involved in the tabletop role playing game part of it.

1035
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 2: So if you want to play a game where you

1036
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 2: are a badger, ooh, my favorite character right now is

1037
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 2: is a bear with a frying pan who is really

1038
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 2: at organizing people and fighting machines. And if that sounds

1039
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 2: fun to you, then Defenders of the Wild is on Kickstarter.

1040
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 2: Might the full title of the kickstarters probably defenders the

1041
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 2: wild by outlandish Games. That's it, except for Sophie. What

1042
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 2: do you got Sophie? Well, what do we got? Margaret?

1043
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: Happening starting October eighth?

1044
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 2: Do you mean the book club, the Cool Zone book Club?

1045
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: I do Magpie.

1046
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 2: Well, every Sunday until the heat Death of the Universe,

1047
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 2: or at least for a little while, we are starting

1048
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 2: a book club. We are starting a book club called

1049
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 2: the Cool Zone book Club. It'll be on the It

1050
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 2: could Happen Here feed that is normally Monday through Friday,

1051
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: but now it is Sunday through Friday because on the

1052
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 2: Lord's Day, I will we.

1053
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: Should probably drop it in here too. Okay, that sounds great,

1054
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: So if you're I'll probably do that, but I'll drop

1055
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: it in cool People for people that because obviously people

1056
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: who listen to cool people think you're cool.

1057
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it will be me reading new stories sometimes

1058
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 2: some other people reading me stories. We have a couple

1059
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 2: of different ideas of what we're going to do with it,

1060
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 2: and the very first thing we're going to do with

1061
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 2: it is four Sundays in a row, we're going to

1062
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 2: have me reading Robert Evans, my novella The Lamb Will

1063
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 2: Slaughter the Lion, which is more or less about a

1064
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 2: punk house full of weird people that burns down, only

1065
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 2: in this case, it's a squatted punk town that is

1066
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 2: occupied by a three antler demon deer that eats people

1067
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:45,919
Speaker 2: who act irresponsibly. Hell yeah, yeah, so check that out.

1068
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 2: And I'm really excited about it. Yeah, we've been working

1069
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Speaker 2: on it for a while. That's what we got. We'll

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Speaker 2: see you next week.

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Speaker 1: Bye bye. People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production

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Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

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Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

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Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts.