WEBVTT - Controversial Immigration Cases 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:16.640 Abolish I Abolish, I Abolish, Ilish. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:19.960 I protests over ICE's arrest of Newark's mayor outside a 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:24.439 new federal immigration detention center on Friday. The arrest came 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.120 after Mayor Ross Baraka tried to join three members of 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:34.160 New Jersey's congressional delegation in an oversight visit. Democratic Congresswoman 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:38.080 Lamonica McIver said that I started pushing them as they 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:39.440 went to arrest Baraka. 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:45.520 Would shoved everything. Literally the aggression that would just ruughy handled. Literally. 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:47.760 I mean nobody picked up a fence to punch us, 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:48.960 but literally they pushed us. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.040 They actually ended and removed us out of the way 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:54.960 to get to the mayor to arrest him. 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.560 The mayor, who said he did nothing wrong, was arrested 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:03.800 on federal trespass charges in the public area outside the facility. 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.360 I didn't climb a fence. I didn't kick the door out. 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:08.280 I didn't bust the window like their friends did at 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:08.760 the Capitol. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.400 I didn't hurt people joining me is immigration law expertly 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.480 on Fresco, a partner at Honden Night Leon on the 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.119 three New Jersey representatives said that they have the right 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.920 to conduct oversight without prior notice, and they've done it 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.399 three times this year. Is that unusual. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.520 It is a very common thing in the history of 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.160 this framework where there are ice attention facilities, which is 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:38.319 about a thirty year phenomenon, that Congress people go into 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.119 these ice attention facilities and view them and monitor them. 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:46.840 There is usually some coordination so that there can actually 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.360 be a time and a date where the inspection takes place, 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.320 or if there's not a coordination, there's usually some sort 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.120 of event that takes place outside of the facility where 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:00.720 you know, there's a press conference and they're using the 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.920 facility essentially as a background to complain about something or other. 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.880 Or the third way is they'll arrive at the facility 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.040 and they'll say, basically like if you would walk into 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.120 an emergency room, Hey, I need to come in, and 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:18.200 then thirty minutes later maybe they'll be let in. The 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.480 problem is when you're trying to combine all of these 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.160 things into one event, which is we're trying to do 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.959 the emergency walk in and we're trying to do a 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.600 media event. That's where I think the people at the 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.919 facility didn't manage it particularly well, and so there was 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.160 this brew haha about whether there was trespassing and assault 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.120 and pushing, and then there was a question as to 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.280 what the mayor of Newark, New Jersey was doing. Was 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.400 he trying to keep the peace or was he trying 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.679 to escalate things and assault officers. And so that's where 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.760 he got arrested because at least ICE is claiming that 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.760 he was not part of the solution, but he was 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.440 of the problem in terms of actually pushing his way 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.040 through and trespassing and disregarding the commands of the ICE 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.679 officers with regard to the movements within the facility. So 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.840 from that perspective, that's going to be quite fascinating, to 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:19.200 the extent that now the DHS spokesperson is threatening the 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:24.080 arrests of the House Democratic Congress members because they are 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.120 protected under something called the Speech of the Bay Clause, 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.600 which is if they are trying to basically show that 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.280 they can engage in functions that are pursued to their 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.480 duties in Congress, which they would say this falls within that, 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.280 they're allowed to do that. But the Speech of the 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:45.480 Bay clause also has an exception for if you are 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.920 committing this kind of assault and battery on someone, you're 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.560 not covered by the speech of the Bay clause. So 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.200 this is actually going to be yet another interesting convergence 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.400 of law, which is was there really an assault and 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:03.440 battery or was this a prevention of the congress people 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:04.560 doing their job. 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:09.080 A Homeland Security spokeswoman said members of Congress assaulted ICE 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.600 agents and body slammed a female ICE officer. I just 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.279 want to note that one of the New Jersey representatives 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.000 is eighty years old. ICE claims it has video, but 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.320 the only video they've released so far is from the 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.440 body cams of the ICE officers outside the facility, and 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.920 it just looks like chaos and confusion. 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.480 I mean, all of those facilities, every inch of them, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.400 are under video and sound, so they would have it 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.720 and we would know the answer to that question. And secondly, 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.960 all of those facilities, I've been to dozens of them, 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.720 both when I was in the government and in representing 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:50.039 foreign nationals who are Unfortunately in those facilities, you can't 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.040 move six feet without getting through some door or some 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.520 gate or something. There's nothing to storm. You'd be storming 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.240 a metal door. That would be very painful to you. 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:05.040 And so from that perspective it does seem unlikely. But 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.640 because I haven't seen a video, I would need to 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:12.160 reserve judgment on that. But nobody here has clean hands, 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.160 because certainly there's a wait for a congress member to 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.920 go into an ice facility that one hundred percent of 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.040 the time has to happen and has to be allowed. 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.520 But by the same token, there is probably an escalation 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.000 that occurred there when they didn't get exactly what they 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.839 wanted when they wanted it, and this is what leads 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:33.880 to these unfortunate conflagrations. 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.160 So the mayor said he was there along with the 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.320 New Jersey representatives, but does he have a right to 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.120 be there as the mayor well. 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.720 So this is actually an interesting part of what is 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.960 currently subject to a lot of federal litigation which hasn't 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.760 been decided in the Supreme Court yet, which is what 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:58.800 rights do states and localities have over these detention facilities 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.800 in their states and local For instance, California has passed 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.400 laws in the past that say you can't have these 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:11.440 ice attention facilities in California, and the courts, at least 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.360 the Ninth Circuit is held that that's preempted and that 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.480 the federal government is allowed to function even in a 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:21.920 state or a locality that says that the federal government 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.880 can't have these kinds of ice facilities in their city. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.080 But then their question is, well, what about licensing requirements? 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:32.240 What about environmental requirements? Are all of those preempted? And 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.880 yet again, these are issues that aren't fully decided in 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:41.000 the courts. Is what jurisdiction or what guidance or supervision 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.160 of any kind would a mayor of a town have 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.400 over an immigration detention facility in their city. Can they 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.920 do anything at all? Or is it one hundred percent 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.880 preempted such that when they arrive at such a facility, 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.360 they are no different than you or I, just a 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:00.320 private citizen, and whatever they do, if they try to desert, 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.880 additional pressure could lead them to being arrested. 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.560 The mayor's office is claiming that the facility is operating 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:12.320 without a valid certificate of occupancy, but more than a 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:18.240 dozen federal agents arrested him on federal trespassing charges in 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:22.000 a public area outside of facility that's owned by a 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:23.440 private prison company. 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.000 Is that a problem, Well, it would be a problem 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.280 if he didn't actually engage in a crime. Then arresting 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.160 him is going to be a huge problem. And obviously 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.120 any time that happened, the person could file a lawsuit 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.000 and tried to get damages under the Federal Toward Claims Act. 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:43.679 So there's definitely possibilities of that if that's really what happened. 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.120 But again this is going to have to be subject 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.840 to the video and the recordings to see what happened, 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:53.280 and also then subject to these legal conclusions about what 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:56.360 jurisdiction does a mayor have, what was the mayor doing, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.240 was the mayor inside when the mayor shouldn't have been, 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.960 or was the mayor arrested for absolutely no reason? So 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.520 we will just have to wait and see. But definitely 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.120 a very fascinating sequence of events that occurred last week. 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.200 I mean, if Ice actually had a video showing this, 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.559 wouldn't they have released it to back up their point? 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:19.800 We would already have. 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.080 Seen it many times. I would have seen the video, 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:24.360 I agree. I agree scenes most likely if you have 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.400 a video, it would have been seen, especially since the 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:32.199 mayor has specifically called on them to produce a video. 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.920 The fact that they have not produced a video, you know, 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:36.839 I think what the mayor should probably want to do 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.640 now is to try to poia the video to file 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.760 a freedom of information I requise and or the media 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:44.719 can do this, and if there are no videos, then 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:46.440 that's going to be the end of the story there. 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:51.120 When you take the mayor's arrest with the arrest of 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:55.760 the judge in Wisconsin, do you think this is the 0:08:55.840 --> 0:09:01.240 federal authorities warning local officials stay out of our business. 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.160 Well, I think the arrest of the judge is far 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.400 more justified than the arrest of the Newark mayor, and 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:12.760 that the judge was openly impeding a request from ICE 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.440 to be able to actually pick someone up in the courtroom. Now, 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.360 the judge is going to have her explanation that she's 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.679 trying to manage her courtroom and the safety of the 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.959 facility and the ability to have a docket because she 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.600 won't have a docket if ICE is operating in her court. 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.280 So fine, there's defenses for that. But the Newark mayor, 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.599 at least if one believes his account, he's saying he 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.400 was just there supporting his members of Congress and just 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.319 making sure that the facility was up to code, so 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.319 to speak, and as soon as he was told to 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.440 VAK he did so. This is the question. Now, maybe 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.200 he didn't, but again, like we discussed, and the video 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.720 is going to answer all of those questions. But if 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.920 there's no video showing him basically trying to barge into 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.520 a facility where he's been told to leave and he's 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.120 not used physical force to do that, I think an 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.840 arrest there is going to be very difficult to justify. 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.480 I've been talking to Leon Fresco, the former head of 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.920 the Office of Immigration Litigation in the Obama administration and 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:15.280 a partner at Honden Knight. 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:16.200 Leon. 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.240 Let's turn to the very high profile arrests of several 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:24.040 foreign graduate students. A couple have been released from custody. 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:29.720 A doctoral student at Toughs was released after six weeks 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.120 in detention. What happened there? 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.920 So she is one of the three sort of big 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.880 students in terms of there was the original Columbia student, 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:44.439 Madmud Khalil, then there was an additional student who was 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.600 also a Columbia student, and there is ur the tough 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:52.720 student Rubsaya os third who all are under that same 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:57.480 guys where Secretary of State Rubio said that this individual 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.839 had to lead the United States because they were that 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.360 ttrumental to the foreign policy interests of the United States. 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.959 So it's not even the typical student visa cases that 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.200 are happening, which is that a student visa is being revolved, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.199 and when the student visa is being revolved, then the 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.280 student is just in flux. No, this is sort of 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.840 the nuclear bomb version of this, which is we are 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:26.040 saying that you are basically no different than a foreign dictator. 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:30.000 You're that bad. You being here hurts America's foreign policy. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.880 We have to keep you in detention, and we have 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.600 to remove you once we can, as soon as we can. 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.160 But in the meantime, you're in detention. So all three 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.400 of these individuals have filed federal habeas claims, and two 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.640 of them, so one of the Columbia students, most in Madawi, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.920 and now this tough student, have been released because these 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.880 judges are finding they're not making the final judgment with 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.439 regard to some rejudgment on the statute being unconstitutional, but 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.760 seems to be where they're headed because they're saying, as 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.640 a matter of injunctive relief, we're going to do two 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.480 things that are quite stunning as legal conclusion. You know, 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.160 it's not clear that the Supreme Court ultimately will allow this. 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.800 We'll have to wait and see. But they said, first 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:19.160 of all, we're going to accept jurisdiction of these claims, 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.800 and that's very remarkable because we don't know that that's 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.320 actually going to be the way the law plays out 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.520 at the end of this, because the Department of Justice 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.680 is saying, no, you have to have the deportation proceeding first, 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.720 and then if there's a deportation ordered, only then can 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.040 you make these constitutional claims. So you have to be 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.640 in attention the whole time to challenge the constitutionality of 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:42.480 the statute and then you can do it. So the 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.319 court is saying no, no, no, no, you can do 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.959 this upfront in a habeas position. So a there's that, 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.240 And then secondly, we find that there's sort of this 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.640 injunction standard, a likelihood of success that you will be 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.520 able to actually show that there's a problem with this 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.400 statute such that we're going to release you from the tension. 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:05.360 And so you now have that in two of the 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:07.960 three cases. We're waiting for what the judge is going 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.160 to do in the third case. But it seems like 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:16.240 the courts aren't concerned about what is the limiting principle 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.680 for the Secretary of State to be able to say 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.599 that someone is harmful to the foreign policy interests of 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.240 the United States and just kick them out without any 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:29.160 sort of limiting principle as to what that means. And 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.959 I think if the government doesn't do a better job 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.120 of articulating a limiting principle, it's going to have a 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.560 much tougher time defending these types of deportations in the court. 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.280 Is this without precedent to have the Secretary of State 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.400 use this provision in this way or is there law 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:46.640 on this. 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.679 Well, they use it all the time for things like, 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.920 you know, a dictator seeks in the country, or some 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.679 terrorists or something. They've used it for that. But to 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.360 use it in a situation where it's a foreign student 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.560 who with you know, maybe articulating things that are very 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.719 unseemly an unclear, you know, we'll have to have that 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:08.760 debate as to each of these students, what they did, 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.600 what they didn't do. But the point is there are 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:16.480 already grounds of deportation for giving material supports to terrorist organizations, 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.200 and those would be much more within the compatibility of 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.080 how the immigration system usually works. If you could say, hey, look, 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.520 this person openly advocated for hamas or this person said 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.320 to donate, or this person said to do this, you 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.360 know whatever, it may be, okay, But this issue of 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:39.440 saying that by engaging in this protest, they are engaging 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:43.000 in conduct that is outside of the foreign policy interests 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.000 of the United States, then the question is, well, okay, 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.800 how does that determination get made? What are the limiting principles? 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.840 And what prevents any Secretary of State from doing that 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.400 for any reason whatsoever. So, for instance, let's say you 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:04.400 called on to stop fleeing the American public. Could Secretary 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.840 of State say, well, maybe we like that, but we 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:11.760 don't want you particularly upsetting China because we're insensitive trade negotiations, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.600 and so you couldn't do that either. You know, you 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.360 get supported for saying China is fleeing the American public 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.280 on trade. So this is the question what is the 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.760 limiting principle? And I think if that's not articulated, the 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.200 courts are going to say, look, there's a vagueness problem 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:31.200 with this statue. That becomes quite concerning to So suppose. 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.080 She wins this round, what happens when her student visa expires? 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.360 Well, so this is what's bizarre about a student visa 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.600 unless and until the administration does new regulations to change this. 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.400 A student visa actually, once you're in the US doesn't 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.360 expire ever if you want to remain a student for 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.640 the rest of your life here, So if you keep 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.760 doing programs, they can keep keeping you here as a student. Now, 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:57.960 the question is how much money do you have to 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.040 be able to do this over and over again. But 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.240 it is fair to say if they tried to change 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.760 their status to anything else, they may have a tough 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:06.240 time doing it, no doubt about it. 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.440 It's about due process. And you know, we had the 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.840 President last week saying he's not sure about due process, 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:18.320 and different people in the administration saying that due process 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.400 rights are not accorded to immigrants, although we had Justice 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:27.280 Scalia in an important opinion saying yes, due process is 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.640 accorded to immigrants. So, I mean, tell us about this 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.960 whole due process argument. 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.720 Well, we start with the words of the Constitution, as 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.320 the Great Justice Kullia used to say, but it is 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:42.360 a very fair point. Well why not actually start with 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.800 the words of the Constitution. And if you were to 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.720 do what's called a control f or you know, a 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.760 word find in the Constitution. You would see that sometimes 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.720 the Constitution uses the words citizen, and sometimes it doesn't 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.040 use the words citizen. And so for the due process 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.920 clause of the Constitution, and it does not use the 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.920 word citizen. It uses the word person. And so there's 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:06.959 a lot of case saw that it said that because 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.440 the due process clause uses the word person and that citizen, 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.240 it doesn't only apply to citizens. It applies to person. 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:19.040 Now that's a separate question to Okay, So everybody has 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:21.440 a right to do process. And I think you wouldn't 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.680 find one justice who would say that that's not true, 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.399 because I think the reason we know this is because 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.159 we already had the nine to nothing decision in the 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.960 cases involving the alien enemies at where the Supreme Court. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.680 You know, there was a debate about whether Trump one 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.480 or the plaintiffs won. But in any case, what the 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.080 Supreme Court said is everybody gets a chance to come 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.439 into court and say, I'm not an alien enemy. Are 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.040 you out of your mind? I'm built from Cleveland. Why 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:51.640 why am I being said to El Savador? I sell 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:55.000 vacuum cleaners and I was born in Cleveland. I don't 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.760 I don't get it. And so everybody gets that right 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.679 to go to court, and so everybody has that due process, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.040 But the question is what process is due to you? 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.400 And I think this is where there's a debate here 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:15.320 about the Trump administration saying, look, we can't give all 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.280 of the people who entered the United States and set 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:21.920 the moment from everything that you hear, and they say, 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.159 they claim at the moment that they're really concerned with 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.480 just a group of people who entered between twenty twenty 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.560 one and twenty twenty four. They're saying, we'll get to 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.600 the people from before twenty twenty one later, but what 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.919 they feel is the sort of bad act that they 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.960 need to remedy is to remove the people who came 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.840 from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty four. And they're 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.440 saying that that's millions of people, which it is. It's 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.960 unclear how many millions, but it certainly is some number 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.880 of millions of people. And what they're saying is there's 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.320 no way we can have a trial for each one 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.440 of these people in immigration court, which is probably going 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.040 to be what ends up happening because a lot of 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:08.639 these folks are from Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Haiti, China at 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.200 other places where they can ask for asylum. And so 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.200 when these folks are asking for asylum, they will have 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.080 to have a trial about whether they're going to be 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.520 persecuted when you send them back. And so this is 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:22.840 the problem. The administration is saying, there's no way we 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:24.560 can do this. How are we going to be able 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:26.560 to get all of these people out? So you have 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:31.280 some understanding of what they're saying. But by the same token, 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.119 the other side says, but if you don't do this 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.200 on a case by case basis, you're going to remove 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.760 people who our law say you can't remove. And so 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.320 there's no other way to do this. You know, it 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.320 might be nice to be able to have some sort 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.600 of group thing going on, but that's not how it works. 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.440 Everybody has to make their case and that's what the 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.160 current law is. And so this is the question. It's 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.440 definitely not practical. There's no dispute to what Trump is 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.440 saying is that it it's not practical to have a 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.680 trial for every single person. But in the end, the 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.600 trial is not for the evil gang members benefit. It's 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.920 for build from Cleveland's benefit to be able to say, hey, 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.040 I'm built from Cleveland. Why did you arrest me I'm 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.560 a US citizen or somebody who already won asylum, or 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:23.720 somebody who actually is a dissident from Venezuela and was 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.679 you know, trying to get this Maduro out of power 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:30.280 and actually use theirs TV and YouTube clips of them 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.840 doing it, et cetera. So for those kind of people, 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:34.720 you need to do process. And the only way to 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.760 figure out which kind of person you're talking about is 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:40.119 to allow each person to make their claim. 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.000 So I mean, there are fast trials, and couldn't they 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.840 do each of these and you know a few. 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.000 Hours, Well you can, and they are done. I mean, 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.000 no asylum claim other than maybe a couple of cases 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:58.800 I've been involved with, But that's because I wonder why, yes, yes, yes, 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.040 I mean I've been in once take two three days, 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:03.879 and that's considered like a record amount of time to 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.400 have an asylum case. But most of them take four hours, 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.880 six hours. But here's the problem. I mean, even if 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:17.200 you had a thousand immigration court judges, and those thousand 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:22.320 immigration court judges worked three hundred and sixty five days, 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.480 which they do not. But let's say they work three 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.200 hundred and sixty five days, we would still be talking 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.800 about at the end of the day, you know, three 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:35.680 hundred and sixty five thousand cases or something. And so 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.240 if you're trying to deport what they claim is ten 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.120 million people, you're not going to make a vent there. 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.720 And so that's the problem that they're coming across here. 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.640 I've been talking immigration law expert Leon Fresco of Honden 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:52.480 Night Stephen Miller. Over the weekend, the White House Chief 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:57.240 of Staff said that they're thinking about trying to suspend 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.879 Habeas corpus, which has been done I think four times 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:02.520 in the nation's. 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:06.119 History, right, and so the Habeas corpus clause says that 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.320 it can be suspended during times of rebellion and invasion. 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:12.920 And so the question is is this considered a type 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:16.320 of invasion that they were talking about, especially when Congress 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:20.840 hasn't declared war. We've already seen that the courts at 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.440 the moment are not very excited about this invasion language 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.159 because they're not allowing it to be used in the 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:30.719 alien Enemies at context. So far, there's not a judge 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.959 who's reviewed any of these alien Enemies at case as 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:36.240 yet who has said yes, by the way, we are 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.479 under an invasion, and so the Trump administration is correct 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.960 to allow folks to be detained and deported without due 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.119 process because we're under an invasion. They haven't been successful 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.480 with that argument yet, and so if they're not successful 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:57.240