1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Hey, let you know USA listener, here's an award winning 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: podcast from our archives. Back in twenty fourteen, before everything started, 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Teresa Matias lived in an apartment with her kids in Huntsville, Alabama. 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: She worked all the time in a factory and cleaning houses. 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: Day shifts bled into night shifts. Her world was small, 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: her work and her kids. And then one day someone 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: knocked on her door. 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: Jo ele aego to colada de hippos, cana amicasinadi me visita. 9 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: Teresa saw it was a woman who was dressed nicely, 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: and so she opened the door. The woman introduced herself. 11 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: We're going to call her M. She was Mexican and 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: spoke to Teresa in Spanish. She said she was from 13 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: a local Catholic church. She says noticed her four sons 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: playing in the living room immediately and remarked, oh, you 15 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: have four boys. 16 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: No, L. 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: Teresa said, actually I have five boys. The youngest was 18 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: still a baby and was sleeping in another room. When 19 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: Teresa went to pick him up out of the bed, 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: She says, M noticed that the baby looked different from 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: Teresa's other. 22 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 3: Childrenque different, medico L you turn is different, Supapa. 23 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: Teresa said she was a little embarrassed to explain that 24 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: her youngest son, the baby had lighter skin because he 25 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: had a different dad, a white American guy who was 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: never in the picture. Em told Teresa that she wanted 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: kids but had never been able to get pregnant. And 28 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: then Teresa let Em hold the baby, and out. 29 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 3: Of nowhere a medio or the m. 30 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: Asked Teresa to give her one of her children. Deesa 31 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: was taken aback lady or no, lady hey. Teresa said no, 32 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: how could she ever give a child away? From Futura 33 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: Media and PRX, it's Latin USA, I'm Maria Rosa today 34 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: an adoption without translation and exposing the cracks in our 35 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: legal system. For this episode will sometimes be referring to 36 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: people with only the first initial of their name, and 37 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: that's because this story involves children and we want to 38 00:02:52,280 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: protect their identity and privacy. Producers Ashley Clik and Jennya 39 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: traveled to Alabama to tell us the story of Didsamatias. 40 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: Ashley Creek is going to start us off. 41 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 4: One Sunday morning in August, Janis and I drive to 42 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 4: Holy Spirit Catholic Church in Huntsville, Alabama. Huntsfulls a flourishing 43 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 4: tech hub in a poor rural state. It has a 44 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 4: small but growing Latino population. It's hot out and we 45 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 4: watched families run through the parking lot sweat spots showing 46 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 4: on their Sunday clothes. Holy Spirit is one of a 47 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 4: handful of Catholic churches in Huntsville, and the fourth sermon 48 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 4: of the day is about to begin the Spanish language mass. 49 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 4: The church's path the roses are filled with children, parents, grandparents, 50 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 4: all dressed in their Sunday best. Mothers soothe frustrated babies 51 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 4: while latecomers line the back walls of the church and 52 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 4: listened to the sermon. 53 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 5: Standing in. 54 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: Madison County well. 55 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 4: The pastor, a white man, reminds his congregation that this 56 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 4: mass is the only Spanish Mass in the county. 57 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 6: In twenty fifteen, the church welcomed the new member, Teresa 58 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 6: Matias Ashley, and I met her in her home in Huntsville, 59 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 6: where she lives with her four sons. So Tedas is 60 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 6: in her early thirties and she stands about five feet tall. 61 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 6: She's originally from rural Guatemala and has been living in 62 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 6: the US for about fourteen years, but she only knows 63 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 6: a few words in English, so we spoke to her 64 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 6: primarily in Spanish, which is her second language. Her first 65 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 6: is a Mayan language called Ganghobal. 66 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 5: You have energy to talk. 67 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: It together for the sunnay okay. 68 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 6: Soon after she moved to Huntsville, Tedesa met a man 69 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 6: and they moved together. They had four sons. Over the years, 70 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 6: he became abusive, so Teresa got a restraining order against him. 71 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 6: She left him, and then her ex was deported. Around 72 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 6: the same time, she had one more son with a 73 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 6: white American man she knew from work, but he was 74 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 6: never really in the picture. So Teresa was left alone 75 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 6: with five kids. 76 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 4: In the small city of Huntsville and the even smaller 77 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 4: Spanish speaking community. Word got around that there was a 78 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,119 Speaker 4: single mom with five boys who might need some help, 79 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 4: and one day in the spring of twenty fourteen, a 80 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 4: bunch of cars showed up at Teresa's door. Yet they 81 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 4: remembers from the Church Holy Spirit. They brought diapers and 82 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 4: asked Teresa if she needed any. 83 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 7: Help to. 84 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 3: Ayuda dess Ayuda. 85 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 4: Teresa appreciated the support. A few weeks after that is 86 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 4: when a woman were calling em. A light skinned Mexican 87 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 4: woman knocked on Teresa's door was pretty high up in 88 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 4: the church. She was the secretary of the Spanish language ministry, 89 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 4: and that's when she asked Teresa to give up a child. 90 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 4: At the time, Teresa told em directly, no. 91 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,119 Speaker 3: Way, lady, Hey, you're nowhere. 92 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 4: I won't give my child away, and I'm not letting 93 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 4: anyone adopt him, even if I know them. 94 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 5: She told them. 95 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 4: Teresa thought the subject was closed. They talked a little more. 96 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 4: Em told Teresa that she didn't have kids and later 97 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 4: asked her if her boys were baptized. 98 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: Hey the kiss. 99 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 4: Em invited her to join the Catholic church and told 100 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 4: Teresa that if she wanted to have her kids baptized 101 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 4: and if she needed god parents, em would be happy 102 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 4: to be the godmother for one of her kids. 103 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 6: So here's where Teresa is at, five kids, alone, out 104 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 6: of a bad relationship and without much support, and all 105 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 6: of a sudden, this local church showed up at her 106 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 6: or step. Esa grew up Catholic in Watemla and had 107 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 6: missed being part of a church. She decided it was 108 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 6: time to get her kids baptized, but she needed to 109 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 6: find godparents first, and she didn't know many people at 110 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,119 Speaker 6: the time. So she asked a member of the church 111 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 6: to help her fight godparents for her sons. 112 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: You a lady hey salone seco quadr parino, marin ldo 113 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: porg eya self recio and sela marina or no dels ninos. 114 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 6: She told the woman that she only needed four godparents 115 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 6: because when em came to visit her, she offered for 116 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 6: her and her husband to be the godparents to her 117 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 6: youngest son, the one who was half white. Usually this 118 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 6: role goes out to members of the family, like an 119 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 6: aunt or an uncle or close family friends. In Spanish, 120 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 6: parents call their child's godparents comadre or compadre, and there 121 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,679 Speaker 6: isn't a word for this in English, but its literal 122 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 6: translation means co mother or co father, like you're raising 123 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 6: the child together. So the fact that Teresa had to 124 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 6: find strangers to play this role for her kids was 125 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 6: somewhat unique. 126 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 4: One of these strangers ended up being Umberto Castillo, Romberto's 127 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 4: young in his early thirties. Back then, he was pretty 128 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 4: involved in the church, and when he was asked to 129 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 4: be the godfather to one of Teresa's sons, it made 130 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 4: him a bit nervous. 131 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 8: I have to think about it because you know, I 132 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 8: got to be the sample of this ky a go 133 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 8: to bed. If I'm the godfather, I have to show 134 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 8: him like who I am. 135 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 4: Momberto grew up Catholic and he understood that being a 136 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 4: godparent is a big deal. He didn't know Teresa, and 137 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 4: if he became a godfather to one of her sons, 138 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 4: he knew he would become part of her family. Her 139 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 4: compadre Romberto, decides to take this on. He becomes the 140 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 4: godfather of Teresa's oldest child and he started spending time 141 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 4: with the family, taking the kids fishing out for ice cream. 142 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 4: Luckily for the family, Umberto's a mechanic. 143 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 8: When the carbre you know the god life, He's always. 144 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 6: There pretty quick. All five kids were finally matched with godparents, 145 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 6: and on February twenty eighth, twenty fifteen, everyone met at 146 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 6: the church for the baptism. Teresa, her five kids all 147 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,599 Speaker 6: dressed in white, and the godmothers and godfathers, including m 148 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 6: and her husband who were going to call JP. After 149 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 6: the ceremony, they all went out for lunch to celebrate 150 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 6: at eighty eight Buffet, a Chinese restaurant in Huntsville. 151 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, pok it. 152 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 6: Everything was beautiful, that. Esa says, I was so happy 153 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 6: her children were part of the religion she grew up with, 154 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 6: and Teresa finally had a community. 155 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 4: After that day, little by little things started to change. 156 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 4: M and JP were well off. They had a big 157 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 4: house and a nice part of town. The couple wanted kids, 158 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 4: and according to the church members we spoke to, they 159 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 4: were pretty open about the fact that they biologically couldn't 160 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 4: have them. So when they became godparents, Teresa says, they 161 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 4: wanted to spend more time with her youngest child. 162 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: KOs Mehabiandico Quepara yon Darbuelda in Las Magnanas ye in 163 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: Las Ares, maj aber Bueno las bess Kiyo Kira al Nino. 164 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 4: Teresa says they told her to leave the child with 165 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 4: them overnight so she didn't have to keep driving back 166 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 4: and forth picking him up and dropping him off. Quickly, 167 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 4: one night became two, then three, and soon the child 168 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 4: was spending weeks at the couple's house. Teresa says she 169 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 4: really needed someone to take care of her kids while 170 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 4: she was working. 171 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 3: Ye Yo Sam. 172 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 5: Sometimes she worked eighteen hour days. 173 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 6: Then, in the summer of twenty fifteen, a few days 174 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 6: after her youngest child turned two, Teresa found out that 175 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 6: M and j P threw a birthday party for him 176 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 6: when he was staying with them. 177 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: Jo. 178 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 6: It was published on Facebook, but they didn't tell Teresa 179 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 6: or invite her. Teresa didn't like it, but she didn't 180 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 6: say anything to them and she didn't get mad. She 181 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 6: respected them and she needed their help taking care of 182 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 6: the little boy. Soon after, M M j P wanted 183 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 6: to take the child on vacation with them, but needed 184 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 6: legal permission from Teresa. Esa told the couple that it 185 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 6: was okay for her son to travel with them, but 186 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 6: she didn't want to sign anything. Resp They kept insisting. 187 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 6: They said, it's just for traveling, and so she agreed 188 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 6: to sign. Your youngest child left on vacation with them, 189 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 6: and they made sure to send pictures. 190 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino us A. M and j P 191 00:12:16,880 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: make a proposition to Theresa, stay with us. We're back 192 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: and when we left off, Teresa Madiaz had just joined 193 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: Holy Spirit Catholic Church and had her five sons baptized. 194 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: M and JP, the new godparents of her youngest son, 195 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: had become very involved in the boy's life, including taking 196 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: him on vacation and throwing him a birthday party that 197 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: Teresa was not invited to. Then they proposed something new 198 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: to Teresa. Ashley Creek and Gene Yamoga continue the story. 199 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 6: Now the child had been staying at mgp's house more 200 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 6: and more frequently since the spring of twenty fifteen. 201 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 3: Yes and Bassaron Los Dias as the. 202 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 6: L Soon after I'm started talking about adopting her son 203 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 6: and mentioned something called an open adoption. Teressa didn't know 204 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 6: what that was, so em explained, says M told her 205 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 6: that the church allows open adoption, and what Teresa understood 206 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 6: from M was that an open adoption is when you 207 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 6: know who has adopted your kid, so you can still 208 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 6: see your child and have the same rights as a 209 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 6: new adoptive parents. 210 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 4: Mberto, the godfather of one of her kids, says Teresa 211 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 4: asked him what he thought for giving her youngest child 212 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 4: up for. 213 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 8: Adoption, and she was like, I'm gonna be all with you. 214 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 8: Can I do it with all of them? 215 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 5: It's too much for memberto says. 216 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 4: He remembered that Teresa felt like she could give the 217 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 4: boy to M and JP, but only under the condition 218 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 4: that she would continue to see him and be part 219 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 4: of his life. 220 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 8: That was kind of like the rule she was not 221 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 8: giving him in aduction, like not to see him forever, and. 222 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 4: To Teresa, they should go to a lawyer to talk 223 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 4: about this open adoption. 224 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: Pre medice. Lady Lady Estaban accept the. 225 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 4: At this point, Teresa says she was tired of them 226 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 4: asking her to go with them to see a lawyer, 227 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 4: so she said, okay, she accepted. 228 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 6: Their first meeting with a lawyer was in October of 229 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 6: twenty fifteen, eight months after the baptism. Teresa says the 230 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 6: lawyer spoke mostly to JP M's husband. They spoke in English. 231 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 6: Remember that as I grew up in rule with the 232 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 6: Mala and her family spoke Ahova, a Mayan language. She 233 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 6: didn't really speak Spanish until she was a teen, but 234 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 6: now that's what she uses most in her everyday life 235 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 6: in the US, and she only knows a few words 236 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 6: in English. So the couple translated for her at the 237 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 6: lawyer's meeting from English to Spanish, but they only spoke 238 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 6: to her when they needed to ask her logistical questions 239 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 6: like where's the child's Social Security card? 240 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 9: She says. 241 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 6: They met again with the lawyer in November, but again 242 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 6: no one spoke to her. She just sat there smiled 243 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 6: and nodded. Teresa says that during this time she started 244 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 6: to get sick. She called m and talked with her. 245 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: You're Lesdja siu Anino, vestaban led hipero Connesa. 246 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 6: Told M M j P the same thing she told Umberto. 247 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 6: If they wanted to adopt the boy, she would agree, 248 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 6: but with the condition that they would never prohibit her 249 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 6: from seeing her son when she wanted. That it would 250 00:16:54,920 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 6: be an open adoption estabian, she says am ad. A 251 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 6: few weeks later, MGP told Essa there was one more 252 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 6: meeting with the lawyer. This time, instead of going to 253 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 6: the lawyer's office, they went to the courthouse and met 254 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 6: a judge. Esa says she didn't understand what was being said. 255 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 6: It was all in English, No me. 256 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 3: Nada. 257 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 6: They talked for over an hour. Then the judge shook 258 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 6: ESA's hand outside the courthouse. MGP told her that this 259 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 6: was their last meeting. The adoption was complete. A few 260 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 6: weeks later, Teresa says she went to the couple's house. 261 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 6: It was a typical visit. She brought along her four 262 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 6: boys so they could play with their little brother. JP 263 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 6: told Teresa they needed to speak to her in another room. Before, 264 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 6: Teresa says, most of her conversations had been with EM, 265 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 6: but this time JP spoke to. 266 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 3: Her mediel ami. 267 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 4: He said they love the boy very much and that 268 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 4: they thank her and God that the child called JP 269 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 4: dad for the first time. 270 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 5: JP started to cry, and then he told her. 271 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 3: Kelos pero the joel. 272 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 2: Por el bien del ninoos sermanos comandre. 273 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 4: He said, we're sorry, but you can't come over anymore 274 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 4: to see the boy. It's better for the child and 275 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 4: for his brothers because after you leave, he's upset and 276 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 4: he cries, so you can't come over anymore. Teresa says 277 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 4: she didn't speak, didn't say anything. She just stood there stunned. 278 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 4: JP finished talking and Teresa finally said. 279 00:18:59,600 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 7: You. 280 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 2: Yohamas de vi comberrees porgueo mi who. 281 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 4: Teresa told JP she didn't accept what he said, that 282 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 4: this was not what they had talked about, but. 283 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 5: She had trusted them. She agreed to share her child 284 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 5: with them, but not like this. 285 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 6: Teresa says, she went into the living room and hugged 286 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 6: her little boy. 287 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 3: Basol. 288 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 6: She kissed him and told him she loved him, and 289 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 6: then she told him to go be with his godfather. 290 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 6: She gathered her four sons and left, and it's only 291 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 6: when she walked out of the door that she started 292 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 6: to cry. That night, Teresa called a friend from church 293 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 6: and started to tell the whole story from the beginning. 294 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 6: Her friend told her she knew a lawyer that as 295 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 6: I should talk to. 296 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 5: My recollection of Terce. 297 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 10: So she's a small woman anyway, But she seemed scared, 298 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 10: she seemed overwhelmed, she seemed fearful of the system in general. 299 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 5: This is Aaron Ryan. 300 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 4: He's a lawyer in Huntsville, and Teresa explained to Aaron 301 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 4: that she thought the adoption of her child would be 302 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 4: an open adoption, that she would be able to see 303 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 4: the child and have the same rights as the new parents. 304 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 5: So I asked him about this, an open adoption does 305 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 5: that exist in Alabama? What you're calling an open adoption 306 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 5: does not exist in Alabama at all. 307 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:45,239 Speaker 4: In Alabama, open adoption does exist, but it means something completely. 308 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 5: Different from what Teresa thought it was. 309 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 4: Each state has different laws around adoption, but in Alabama, 310 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 4: open only means that the child and the birth parents 311 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 4: know each other's names and information. 312 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 5: That's it. The birth mother retains no. 313 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 4: Way their rights in Alabama there is no law for 314 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 4: a statute that recognizes an open adoption like what Teresa understood. 315 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 4: After an adoption, Aaron explained to Teresa, the mother is 316 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 4: no longer the parent. 317 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 10: Officially, they'll get a dew birth certificate with them listed 318 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 10: as the biological payers of the child, so Teresa's name 319 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 10: is erased from those records. 320 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 6: In Edessa's case, Aaron says, there are several things that 321 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 6: don't seem normal. All the adoption papers were in English, 322 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 6: nothing was translated into Spanish for THEDISA, and having the 323 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 6: adoptive parents MMJP act as a Spanish interpreter for MEDISA, 324 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 6: Aaron says, is a conflict of interest. Aaron offered to 325 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 6: help Edessa, but she couldn't afford it. A few months 326 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 6: after JP told that Isa that she wasn't allowed to 327 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 6: see her son anymore, the couple packed up and along 328 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 6: with the child, they moved out of state. We wanted 329 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 6: to understand the details of this adoption from someone who 330 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 6: was there, so we found the address of the lawyer 331 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 6: who handled it. His name is Michael Robertson, so we 332 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 6: stopped by early in the afternoon. Michael agrees to talk, 333 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 6: but says there are things he can't tell us unless 334 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 6: that Isa's present. Yeah, he's still welcome to way. 335 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 5: Okay, Sure'm go away for a little bit. 336 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,239 Speaker 6: I just want to take a second to note how 337 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 6: strange this is because Esa is not Michael's client. He 338 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 6: has no responsibility towards her, no relationship. But Michael is 339 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 6: adamant that there are things he only feels comfortable saying 340 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 6: with that SA's permission. Throughout several interviews, Essa has told 341 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 6: us repeatedly that you would like to talk to Michael 342 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 6: about what happened during all those meetings she sat in. 343 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 6: So we call her and she agrees to meet go 344 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 6: So we come back in the evening and Michael's waiting 345 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 6: for us. 346 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 4: We sit on couches in the waiting room after the 347 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 4: office is closed. Michael has a stack of files next 348 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 4: to him. He wants to talk to Teresa about what 349 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 4: happened three years ago. He starts by telling her what 350 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 4: he thinks was happening in her life at the time. 351 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 10: This happened a long time ago, and I can't remember everything, 352 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 10: but I do remember this, and I think Teresa, you 353 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 10: should remember this. 354 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 4: Michael says that the father of Teresa's youngest child the 355 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 4: white American guy was sexually abusing Teresa and coming to 356 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:48,719 Speaker 4: her house harassing her. 357 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 10: And look, you can record wherever you want, but I 358 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 10: want her to understand that he was coming over there 359 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 10: and abusing. 360 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 4: As Michael talks, Teresa looks confused, lost Jani's interprets for her, 361 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 4: and Tennis explains that this isn't true. 362 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 10: I mentioned the police. I think she understood police. I 363 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 10: think she wanted to go to the police. Now there 364 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 10: was no interpreter. There was no interpreter there. But it 365 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 10: was clear to me that I repeated this over and 366 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 10: over again, and I think she understood a lot of that. 367 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 10: I mean, we met for hours. She had to understand. 368 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 10: She has to understand that. She clearly understood. 369 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 5: Who was the interpreter in the rest, But the interpreter. 370 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 10: Was again, it was, it was, it was, and I 371 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 10: have to say this, it was well I can't really 372 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 10: say it's my client. 373 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 9: But it was my client. 374 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 8: And why. 375 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 6: But even if there was physical abuse, that doesn't justify 376 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 6: an adoption. If Essa didn't know what was going. 377 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 10: On, she must understand some English. I think she does. 378 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 9: In playing this, she says she understands a few words, 379 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 9: but everything you're saying she doesn't, and we've also been 380 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 9: with her at her house and she doesn't understand her sons. 381 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 4: Michael says that what he eventually understood was that Teresa 382 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 4: was giving up her youngest child because she was poor, 383 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 4: and that she wanted to get child support from her 384 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 4: ex partner, the father of her four older children. Teresa 385 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 4: says she never said this, but Michael is adamant that 386 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 4: in her gestures, in her nodding, and in whatever interpretation, 387 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 4: he was told that this is the other reason Teresa 388 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 4: gave up her child for adoption. 389 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 10: I think sincerely that my idea was that she she 390 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 10: wanted this adoption to go through, very much excited, and 391 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 10: merely from the expressions, if she didn't understand, on her face, 392 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 10: was to make sure this thing went through as quickly 393 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 10: as possible. And I think she was driving force for this. 394 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 10: I believe in my heart that she was. Now she's 395 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 10: saying she's not, then something's wrong. Okay, maybe there's a 396 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 10: lapse in memory. I'm not calling her liar. I'm just 397 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 10: saying that this is my understanding, and it was expressions 398 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 10: on her face. She was all smiles. She's not smiles now, 399 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 10: I'm sorry, So. 400 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 5: I guess I'm just yeah, no, I understand that. 401 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 4: I guess I'm just wondering, as a lawyer, when the 402 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 4: party that's interpreting obviously has an interest in the case, 403 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 4: is that a concern to you, Well. 404 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 10: It is, and it should be my and I guess 405 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 10: if there's an error here, you know it. It's clear 406 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 10: to me that that was something that I probably should 407 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 10: have had an interpreter. But usually when people don't want 408 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 10: to do something and I am questioning them over an 409 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 10: issue repeatedly, okay, there's a different expression, such as there 410 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 10: is right now. 411 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 6: This conversation continues on for three hours. I interpret what 412 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 6: Michael says with that is I'm Spanish, and then everything 413 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 6: that Teresa says back to Michael in English. 414 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 10: I'm sorry, Teresa, but I think you're unhappy over the 415 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 10: fact that you didn't think they would move away, and 416 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 10: they did move away, And I think that's the only 417 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 10: reason why she's complaining. Now I may be the only 418 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 10: reason at all, but I I think she understood about 419 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 10: the closed adoption. I just thought maybe she thought they 420 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 10: were going to stay here. Maybe that's it. 421 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 6: I translate this to Teresa La Jose trite the medijer 422 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 6: Teresa says, no, she was upset about everything. She was 423 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 6: sad even before they moved when they told her she 424 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 6: could no longer see her son. She says she cries 425 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 6: all the time for her son, and suddenly talking more 426 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 6: about everything that happened gets her emotional. 427 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 3: Miss compos Lady La Courian's comport. 428 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: But don't look at Missier. 429 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 6: She's not who she was before, Esa says, this person 430 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 6: who always smiled because the people who she trusted betrayed her. 431 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 6: I understood they needed a son, that Esa says, and 432 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 6: I shared my son with them, and look what they 433 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 6: did to me. At the end of our meeting, Michael 434 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 6: says he has a recording of Teresa consenting to the adoption, 435 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 6: but that he can't send it to us because of 436 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 6: attorney client privilege. Huntsville is small enough that Michael actually 437 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 6: goes to Holy Spirit, the same church ass and the couple. 438 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 6: This is something that was a theme in a reporting. 439 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 6: Essa's friends are in the church, and she also said 440 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 6: that people at the church had also encouraged her to 441 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 6: give up her son. We wanted to better understand the 442 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 6: circumstances around the adoption, so we called Holy Spirit's Hispanic 443 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 6: Ministry multiple times, but no one agreed to be on 444 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 6: the record for this story. We didn't get a comment 445 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 6: about these specific questions, but people were clearly upset that 446 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 6: we reached out to the ministry about the story. From 447 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 6: what we understood, this adoption had been discussed in the 448 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 6: community and from our phone calls, we understood that it's 449 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 6: clearly a point of tension. But the people we called 450 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 6: said this had nothing to do with the church. They 451 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 6: said it was a private adoption and a private matter. 452 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 6: They also said many times that M and JP were 453 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 6: good people. We tried for months to get in touch 454 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 6: with a couple M and JP. We email and call 455 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 6: them and leave messages in English and Spanish. So jonas yamoka, 456 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 6: So I'm bitter. Let's you know usay hi. 457 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 5: I'm calling to try to speak to a My name 458 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 5: is Ashley Creek. 459 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 6: And no response. It was clear from our conversation with 460 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 6: Michael that there was no proper interpreter present in the 461 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 6: lawyer's office. 462 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 5: But what about in court? 463 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: You're good to go? 464 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 7: You ah? 465 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 6: Yes, we spoke to the judge who presided over Tessa's adoption. 466 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 4: So we wanted to adopt to Judge Raglin because I'm 467 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 4: almost one hundred percent sure that he was a judge 468 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 4: that officiated it. 469 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 6: He didn't remember it specifically, but he said it probably 470 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 6: wasn't a big procedure. He told us most adoptions were 471 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 6: something he called a sign only, where he just signs 472 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 6: at the bottom of the final adoption form. He said 473 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 6: if Fidessa didn't ask for an interpreter, the probate court 474 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 6: wouldn't have provided one. In fact, the judge said that 475 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 6: in his eighteen years, he's never used an interpreter, and. 476 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 5: We found out that's not that unusual. We called all the. 477 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 4: Probate courts in northern Alabama, where thousands of Guatemalane imigrants 478 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 4: like Teresa live. Twenty six got back to us. Only 479 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 4: six were sure they had ever used interpreters in court. 480 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 11: In the stead of Alabama's civil court does not cover interpreters. 481 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 11: We are not paid to go to civil court, and 482 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 11: probate is one of them. 483 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 4: That's Mavi Figetis. She's a certified and trained court interpreter 484 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 4: and for the past fifteen years, Mavii's been interpreting in Spanish, 485 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 4: but never in probate court. 486 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 11: Instead, the non English speakers have to bring their own interpreter, 487 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 11: whether it's trained or not. 488 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 4: Probate courts deal with small, everyday legal stuff marriage licenses, wills, 489 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 4: but also some serious matters like committing someone to a 490 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 4: psychiatric court, transferring a piece of property, and like in 491 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 4: Theresa's case, certifying an adoption. Not being able to understand 492 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 4: what's happening in court is a violation of a person's 493 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 4: due process the fourteenth Amendment, but that doesn't necessarily translate 494 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 4: into state courts interpreters. According to the law in Alabama, 495 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 4: civil courts, including probate are not required to provide or 496 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 4: pay for an interpreter. Instead, non English speakers have to 497 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 4: bring a volunteer, like a family member or a friend, 498 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 4: just like what happened when MMJP interpreted for Tresa. 499 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 6: In twenty sixteen, a few months after they moved. The 500 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 6: couple sent that as a letter in Spanish. The first 501 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 6: line read, ol coo madre believe it or not, we 502 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 6: are always thinking about you and your children. It goes 503 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 6: on to say they haven't been able to stay in 504 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 6: touch because they say Thatas and her family have harassed 505 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 6: them with angry messages. The letter ended with them telling 506 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 6: her there will be a time when she can have 507 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 6: contact with the child again, but only when Thedis understands 508 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 6: the child now belongs to another family. 509 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 5: With the life. 510 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 6: The couple sent three photos of the boy. One is 511 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 6: of him at his third birthday party, sipping on a 512 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 6: carton of juice. These are the last pictures that Esa 513 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 6: has of him. 514 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: Thanks to producers Ashley Cleek and Genesee Amoca for that story. 515 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: Over three years have passed since Deesa Madiaz last saw 516 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: her son in Huntsville, Alabama. At this point, Dedesa has 517 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: at least one option. She can hire a lawyer and 518 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: ask the biological father to come forward and contest the adoption, 519 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: but Dedesa says she doesn't have the money to do that. 520 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: Adoptions like this one between two families without any agency involved, 521 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 1: are confidential, so it's impossible to know how many cases 522 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: like Dedysa's have happened in the past. What is clear, though, 523 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 1: is that the probate courts in Alabama then handled these 524 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: kinds of options, are not required to hire interpreters. As 525 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: a result, many life changing decisions like whether a child 526 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: leaves one family and joins another are happening in English only. 527 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: This episode was reported by Ashley Click and Janie Jamoca, 528 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: with additional reporting help from Lucas Southern. It was edited 529 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: by Sophia Palissa car and mixed by Stephanie Lebou. The 530 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: Latino USA team includes Andrea Lopez Rusado, Marta Martinez, Daisy Contreras, 531 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: Mike sargent Urrieta Martinelli, Victoria Strada, Patricia Sulbaran, Gini montalbo 532 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: Alejandra Salasar, Renal Junior and Julia Rocha, with help from 533 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: Raul Beeritz. Our editorial director is Julio Ricardorella. Our senior 534 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: engineer is Julia Gruso. Our associate engineers are gabriel A 535 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: Bayez and jj Carubin. Our marketing manager is Les Luna. 536 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: Our fellows are Elisa Vena, Monica Mourreles Garcia and Andrew Vignalis. 537 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: Our theme music was composed by Sangue Robinos. I'm your 538 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: host and executive producer Maria Jojosa. Join us again on 539 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: our next episode and in the meantime, look for us 540 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 1: on all of your social media. Referda de by yes, 541 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: and we'll see you in our next episode. 542 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 7: Tao Latino Usa is made possible. In part by the 543 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 7: Annie E. Casey Foundation, creates a brighter future for the 544 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 7: nation's children by strengthening families, building greater economic opportunity, and 545 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 7: transforming communities. Funding for Latino USA is Coverage of a 546 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 7: culture of Health is made possible in part by a 547 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 7: grant from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, New York Women's Foundation, 548 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 7: the New York Women's Foundation funding women leaders that build 549 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 7: solutions in their communities, and celebrating thirty years of radical generosity. 550 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: Here's a podcast from our archives Archives Archives, I Eat 551 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: Chives