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Speaker 1: of things we simply don't know the answer too. Well.
Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways.
Speaker 1: I am Steve, of course, joined by Devin and Joe
Speaker 1: and Joe, and this week we have yet another mystery. Uh.
Speaker 1: This week we are going to talk about the death
Speaker 1: of Bisbon Negro a Bismon Negro for anybody who doesn't know,
Speaker 1: was a was a lout a door and his looch doors.
Speaker 1: That's obviously. Bismo Negro was his ring name. His real
Speaker 1: name was actually Andreas Alejandro Palamecke Gonzalez. Do we want
Speaker 1: to tell what people what a looch door is? We will.
Speaker 1: We're okay, We're gonna get there. I'm sorry, just a
Speaker 1: brief description of what the mystery is before we talk
Speaker 1: about the details on it. Pala mack A was found
Speaker 1: dead under a bridge neil near El Rosario, Mexico, in
Speaker 1: March of two thousand nine, and the initial belief of
Speaker 1: what caused his death, and then the eventual official cause
Speaker 1: of death was accidental drowning, which caused a lot of
Speaker 1: questions to be raised. And the reason partially is because
Speaker 1: it was during the dry season in Mexico and he
Speaker 1: drowned a mud puddal basically, yeah, yeah, he basically drowned
Speaker 1: in a mud puddle so deadly dihydrogen monoxide that oh yeah,
Speaker 1: teaspoon that can kill you, can kill you, and everybody
Speaker 1: who's consumed it dies, you know. Okay, So this, this
Speaker 1: supposed mud puddle was actually it was a body of water.
Speaker 1: It was about a waiste not waist deep. But it
Speaker 1: is really strange because it raises the question of how
Speaker 1: does a man who is so physically fit drowned in
Speaker 1: such a small body of water stand up? Stand up?
Speaker 1: And so the mystery, the questions around the mystery are,
Speaker 1: you know, how did he die? Was it really an accident?
Speaker 1: If so, how did it happen? And if it wasn't
Speaker 1: an accident, then it must have been murdered? And who
Speaker 1: pulled off this very well covered up murder? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: really what our story is. Good questions. It's quite insidious,
Speaker 1: I must agree. Before we get into the mystery. Quick
Speaker 1: shout out to Stephen who suggested this, not not not me,
Speaker 1: know somebody else like a year ago, which I mean,
Speaker 1: this is another one I've been sitting on forever. I
Speaker 1: admit it. I'm doing this all the time. You are,
Speaker 1: you know. I go through that cheat that we keep
Speaker 1: of all of the suggestions, and I see, oh, that
Speaker 1: one sounds all Steve called Dibbs already. That was Steve
Speaker 1: called Dibbs already. Okay, I'll do this one. No, Joe's
Speaker 1: got DIBs already. You guys been doing it for years.
Speaker 1: I know. I really appoloy, I really we should have
Speaker 1: warned you, except that you would have got in on
Speaker 1: the really good stories. Is to tell you that we
Speaker 1: were calling dibbs on spreadsheets, so I didn't know. And
Speaker 1: by the way, Devon, we're calling dibbs on the spreadsheet,
Speaker 1: So go ahead and call DIBs on anything you want.
Speaker 1: Oh great, now, thanks. You know. Actually, the reason I
Speaker 1: do that every time it's time to do an episode
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to think of a good mystery to do,
Speaker 1: I go out there and I go to those things,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I'll be opening those up and realizing Christ.
Speaker 1: You know, I looked at this thing like three times already,
Speaker 1: and I've forgotten about it and gone back and looks
Speaker 1: I started, I said, I decided to start marking the
Speaker 1: good ones. And you'll know I've marked out the ones.
Speaker 1: Is too short or not a mystery, or I have
Speaker 1: noticed Joe has his own crib note system. He does.
Speaker 1: I still don't know what the asterric means. I've asked
Speaker 1: him three times. He refuses to tell me. Actually, I've
Speaker 1: forgotten what it means. Think it means. I've looked at
Speaker 1: it yourself. So new mystery next week? What does the
Speaker 1: astrict meaning? Okay, alright, let's go on with our story.
Speaker 1: I do okay. Before we actually get into the story,
Speaker 1: quick quick disclaimer here story took place in Mexico. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of Spanish. Spanish is not a language that
Speaker 1: I am very good with. I mean, if you've heard
Speaker 1: me speak British English, you know how bad I am
Speaker 1: or English English English English. So I have done a
Speaker 1: lot of work to get the pronunciations of things right.
Speaker 1: If I dropped something, which chances are good, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: drop a couple of things wrong. I apologize in advance Okay,
Speaker 1: back to Devon's question several minutes ago, which is what's
Speaker 1: a Luchadors are wrestlers. Luchadors are part of sport which
Speaker 1: is called lucha libre, which loosely translates to English is
Speaker 1: free fight. Lucha libres kind of similar to professional wrestling
Speaker 1: that you'll see in the US, which is it's non
Speaker 1: greco Roman wrestling. Yeah, it's like the professional wrestling with
Speaker 1: the guys are big, hooking guys and they have these
Speaker 1: all have these grievances against one another. We're talking like
Speaker 1: ww e JO sort of stuff, except that the lucha
Speaker 1: libre is a little unique in terms of there's a
Speaker 1: cultural aspect where all of the wrestlers are always seen
Speaker 1: in the ring as their persona or outside the ring
Speaker 1: as their persona, where they're wearing a mask, if not
Speaker 1: an outfit, and we're talking likes full face mask, you know,
Speaker 1: complete body suits that are color matched. So there are
Speaker 1: things that you'll see with these where it is very
Speaker 1: stylistically linked together. The masks are very stylistic, and one
Speaker 1: wrestler's mask and another's wrestler's mask don't look anything alike
Speaker 1: other than their a mask because just the way it's organized,
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's very distinct. Yeah. Frankly, I've always
Speaker 1: been a little creeped out by those masks. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would agree with that. Actually, well, you know it's It's
Speaker 1: funny though, is that most people probably will know what
Speaker 1: we're talking about because there's so much pop culture stuff
Speaker 1: that's been done. I mean there's cartoons. There was mucha
Speaker 1: Lucca which was on TV for several years, which was
Speaker 1: a cartoon road Strong Bad from Home Start Runner. Although
Speaker 1: my favorite thing about Strong Bad. Have you ever caught
Speaker 1: the joke of Strong Bad he's wearing a luchador mask,
Speaker 1: but he also wears boxing gloves. Yeah, so there's this weird,
Speaker 1: this weird little joke. And and who he is Yeah,
Speaker 1: Nacho Libre. Also, I don't think he wore the mask.
Speaker 1: I didn't see the movie. I didn't watch that. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: that's one of those ones. I wasn't gonna wat check
Speaker 1: made that movie where poop disappeared. I kind of stopped
Speaker 1: watching this movie. I literally have no idea what you're
Speaker 1: talking about exactly. I don't think I saw that one either.
Speaker 1: You're lucky. Yeah, what movie was that? Ben Stiller was
Speaker 1: in it. That's all you need to know. Don't don't,
Speaker 1: don't go down that alley. I'm gonna go on record
Speaker 1: here as saying, in regards to Lucally Bring, it's all fake.
Speaker 1: What pretty sure it's all fake? And I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: that's a well accepted fact. I don't know about that, Steve. Okay,
Speaker 1: So American w w E slash ten A wrestling people
Speaker 1: still try to pretend that's real. But the reading that
Speaker 1: I got that I did. I get the feeling that
Speaker 1: you know, people who watched literally they get that it's
Speaker 1: kind of made up. Well, of course it is. Now Okay,
Speaker 1: so I've I've gone ahead and I've piste off sports
Speaker 1: fans this entire continent at this point. I'm sure not
Speaker 1: many of our listeners aren't wrestling fans. You know, it
Speaker 1: all makes sense. I mean, if you're going out into
Speaker 1: the ring, like you know, five times a week or
Speaker 1: whatever and actually really going at it, you can't just
Speaker 1: do that all the time. Injured a lot. Did either
Speaker 1: of you watch matches for this? I have seen them before.
Speaker 1: I didn't for this. I was I was cracking up
Speaker 1: watching some of the matches where they are just they're
Speaker 1: all super macho and they're buff and it's so hard,
Speaker 1: and then one guy smacks into another guy and that
Speaker 1: guy goes completely flaccid and falls down and then jumps
Speaker 1: up into suddenly just sy energizing, so hilarious. One of
Speaker 1: my favorites is one like one guy is down in
Speaker 1: the center of the ring and the other guy starts
Speaker 1: running back and forth corner to quarter, bouncing off the
Speaker 1: ropes about him. Yeah, I mean, the idea I think
Speaker 1: is that is that he's like building up momentum and speed.
Speaker 1: You know what, Really all he's doing is running back
Speaker 1: and forth, Yeah, right to fall. It's not even like
Speaker 1: you're gonna run. He's building up static electricity probably, And
Speaker 1: let me see you see him, Like do the other
Speaker 1: one with the guys down, He clambs up on the
Speaker 1: ropes in the corner and then jumps off on the guy,
Speaker 1: jumps on top of him and then just lads next
Speaker 1: to him, and his arm is actually the only part
Speaker 1: of them that hits the guy's body. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's just totally the whole thing. It's just is
Speaker 1: so much fun to watch as long as you keep
Speaker 1: that in mind, because I'd laugh for a good fifteen
Speaker 1: minutes watching these. They are so fun. But that's enough
Speaker 1: about the little precursor bits. Let's get into our mystery.
Speaker 1: Are we ready to rumble? Yeah, let's get ready to rumble.
Speaker 1: You're right, okay. So Pala Macka had been wrestling for
Speaker 1: about two decades. He began his career in At that
Speaker 1: time he was under the character or ring name of
Speaker 1: Alex Dynamo, and then, several years later and of course
Speaker 1: masked and costume changes, began wrestling as Pecanyo Samurai, which
Speaker 1: translates the little Samurai. What does it did his costume
Speaker 1: look like a samurai? You're gonna you're gonna look it
Speaker 1: up now. I'm going to tell you that it doesn't
Speaker 1: look like a samurai. I'm just gonna tell you no
Speaker 1: swords involved. It is wrestling. He uh He. Then again,
Speaker 1: later several years later, changed his outfit again and his
Speaker 1: persona and in two became Winners that's the character's name, Winners,
Speaker 1: at which point he actually enjoyed a lot of success.
Speaker 1: Yeah he did. He actually had. He had pretty good
Speaker 1: career there for a while before he started circling the
Speaker 1: drain Winners. It's just not it's just not omin enough,
Speaker 1: ominous enough sounding. Okay, So there's there's this funny thing
Speaker 1: in in luter libre where there's rudios, which are the
Speaker 1: rude boys that you're bad guys, and then there's the
Speaker 1: good guys. And the rudio's always have these kind of
Speaker 1: sinister names, and the good guys have these very simple, clean,
Speaker 1: pure names. And so winners or winner, depending on how
Speaker 1: you see it written. He was a good guy, so
Speaker 1: it's kind of that clean, pure name. So that's why
Speaker 1: I believe that's what that's why it was only winner
Speaker 1: instead of the Olympic Champion winners or something crazy like that.
Speaker 1: He did. He did eventually do that. Um. But here's
Speaker 1: something that we got to point out about the wrestling
Speaker 1: sport itself, which is things are done with luchadors. There
Speaker 1: are leagues or federations, and people might be sort of
Speaker 1: familiar with this with other sports. You know, you see
Speaker 1: the majors and the miners and and the semipro leagues
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. The thing about the Luca libre
Speaker 1: is that there are these leagues or federations, whatever you
Speaker 1: want to call them, that all operate at the same
Speaker 1: level into pendant of one another. So there are we
Speaker 1: to actually mentioned this briefly earlier. In the US, there
Speaker 1: is the w w E, the World Wrestling Entertainments formerly
Speaker 1: WWF formally WWF, And there is also t N A
Speaker 1: Total Total NonStop Action, which I've never heard of before,
Speaker 1: you know, really, yeah, I've heard of it for years,
Speaker 1: but I always thought it was part of t n
Speaker 1: T the TV, But it's not. But these are two
Speaker 1: leagues that are on the same level, but they are
Speaker 1: completely autonomous of one another. They're there, wrestlers don't don't
Speaker 1: crossover and wrestle their guys, and if they do, they
Speaker 1: full on leave one side and begin to operate inside
Speaker 1: the circles of the other. They don't. They don't go
Speaker 1: back and forth. No crossover. Now, so they were the
Speaker 1: luchador masks and the costumes and all that stuff. Is
Speaker 1: it publicized who's behind that masker? Is it just you know,
Speaker 1: when they're talking about the are they saying this person
Speaker 1: is this person? Or are they just saying and it's
Speaker 1: this person they always refer as, at least in my experience.
Speaker 1: And again, I don't know a lot of Spanish. I
Speaker 1: don't watch a watch a lot, so I can't give
Speaker 1: good firsthand knowledge of this. But what I understand is
Speaker 1: everybody kind of knows who behind who's behind the mask,
Speaker 1: But when the mask is on, that is the character,
Speaker 1: and that is who you talk about. You don't say
Speaker 1: and Bob Jones playing the whatever whatever, that's that's not
Speaker 1: the way it goes character, you know. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: um as an example, in the w WF when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, so there was there was Hull Cogan.
Speaker 1: Everybody knew who whole Cogan was. Well, that's kind of
Speaker 1: his name. But then there's Jake the Snake. Well, Jake's
Speaker 1: last name was not Snake. His character was Jake the Snake.
Speaker 1: He had a last name. His first name happened to
Speaker 1: be Jake. They never said Jake the Snake a k A.
Speaker 1: Whatever his full name. About the Undertaker, that was not
Speaker 1: his real name. That's not his legal name. No, No,
Speaker 1: I have some I have some apology letters to write. Do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we are way off track. Okay, So we were talking
Speaker 1: about the League's what we were talking about. Okay, So
Speaker 1: palamcka was originally he was wrestling under uh. It's commonly
Speaker 1: the abbreviation in English is cml L, which is consert
Speaker 1: Ho Mundial de Lucha Libre, which is Spanish for World
Speaker 1: Wrestling Council. And that was when he was under the
Speaker 1: characters of Alex Dynamo and Pecano Samurai. And then after
Speaker 1: he went over to what you see commonly referred to
Speaker 1: his Triple A promotions, which I'm actually not going to
Speaker 1: try and say this one Spanish because I know a
Speaker 1: butcher really badly, uh, which in Spanish translated to English,
Speaker 1: it is assistance counseling and Administra Arasian promotions, which is
Speaker 1: why everybody calls it Triple A because it sounds much
Speaker 1: sexier that way. But when he was when Palomo palam
Speaker 1: Oke was at Triple A, that's when he started his
Speaker 1: winners and he had a lot of success with them,
Speaker 1: and then in he changed from one of the good
Speaker 1: guys to the bad guys. He changed his character, and
Speaker 1: that's when he became a bismo negro, which is the
Speaker 1: black abyss, which we haven't actually said yet. It is
Speaker 1: absolutely correct. We have not said that the direct translation,
Speaker 1: So this is this is the funny thing. Joe and
Speaker 1: I chatted about this a little bit earlier. The direct
Speaker 1: translation in English is abyss black, but it is properly
Speaker 1: translated black Abyss. Yeah, that's one of those nuances of translation.
Speaker 1: It is, and it's it plays a bit of a
Speaker 1: role later on as we go through things. But he
Speaker 1: had a lot of success, Like I said, he did
Speaker 1: that he made that transition. He was one of their
Speaker 1: top wrestlers at Triple A in two thousand and four.
Speaker 1: He was good enough that he actually got into an
Speaker 1: exchange program with t NA here in the US, and
Speaker 1: he for a year wrestled in matches in the States
Speaker 1: with the mask and everything before he eventually went back.
Speaker 1: And it's funny. I watched some of those matches and
Speaker 1: it's kind of terrible and shame on ten A for
Speaker 1: doing this a little bit. I mean, he does English,
Speaker 1: but he plays totally dumb like he doesn't know English,
Speaker 1: and they play that up. It's a weird stereotype thing.
Speaker 1: It was awkward, still totally hilarious to watch him running
Speaker 1: around smacking guys in the face. But yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a little strange. It's a little strange. Yeah, the whole
Speaker 1: thing is a little strange to watch that if the
Speaker 1: people who watch it and take it seriously is what
Speaker 1: I don't. But again, I have made all those people
Speaker 1: angry once, So we're not going to keep doing that.
Speaker 1: Let's move forward. So after you know, there's he goes
Speaker 1: to the States. He's in on the teen A matches
Speaker 1: for a year. He then he starts to hit what
Speaker 1: I would call a rough match, starts missing matches on
Speaker 1: a relatively regular basis, and based on the reading that
Speaker 1: I've done, he's generally starts to be considered unreliable, as
Speaker 1: in not showing up for matches. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: a bummer. Yeah, it's thousands of people show up for
Speaker 1: a four match night and one of the guys doesn't show.
Speaker 1: They just paid for a three match night and they're
Speaker 1: they're not happy. Well, but so here's a question. I mean,
Speaker 1: they wear a costume and a mask, mask, there's no option,
Speaker 1: yeah for there to just have somebody else go on
Speaker 1: as him. I think that might have been done a
Speaker 1: few times. So there, um, there is ways that that happened.
Speaker 1: There are some negative repercussions that come about from that.
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about some personally or both for the
Speaker 1: both for the reputation of the character as well as
Speaker 1: the organizer of the event, depending upon how they go
Speaker 1: about it. There I mean, we can just jump to this.
Speaker 1: There's a bit where somebody goes on stage pretending to
Speaker 1: be our wrestler, our luchador here, and it is not
Speaker 1: actually him, and they bill it as him and don't
Speaker 1: make any mention that they have a fill in pretending,
Speaker 1: And when it comes out what happened, that promoter gets
Speaker 1: banned for two years. So we'll talk about that a
Speaker 1: little bit later. Yeah, so it's it's possible. I know
Speaker 1: exactly where you're heading with that, but it's it's terrible
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah. Um, So the problem is he's missing
Speaker 1: these matches because, according to the rumors that we're floating about,
Speaker 1: and this is for a good number of years, he
Speaker 1: really some drugs. He especially seems to have been fond
Speaker 1: of cocaine. People are a lot of people do like
Speaker 1: cocaine to the length that he is reported to have
Speaker 1: wrestled for drugs as well as possibly have done it
Speaker 1: in the locker room in the open with other wrestlers.
Speaker 1: Maybe this sounds like rude, but don't you kind of
Speaker 1: think you'd want to be high if you were doing
Speaker 1: this for a living. I'm actually if you're gonna go
Speaker 1: like fake a fight, don't you think maybe you want
Speaker 1: high before that. I can't believe I'm about to do this,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna defend wrestling in a way that I
Speaker 1: never thought I was gonna do. Yes, Okay, so let's
Speaker 1: think about this. A match is choreographed. You go to
Speaker 1: the ballet and these dancers have trained, and they know
Speaker 1: their steps and their routines and where they're supposed to be,
Speaker 1: where their marks are are are on stage the entire time,
Speaker 1: as are moving about rapidly with up to you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know how many of them on the site,
Speaker 1: but a bunch of people. Okay. Now let's think about that.
Speaker 1: From the point of a wrestler. There are two of you.
Speaker 1: You are choreographed to do very specific things, which are
Speaker 1: feats of athleticism. The last thing you want is the
Speaker 1: other dude high as a kite and missing his mark
Speaker 1: and bringing his elbow down not on the mat next
Speaker 1: to your head, but on your throat. Like there, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of choreography and actual skill involved. I get
Speaker 1: that wrestling is a joke, but there's a ton of
Speaker 1: skill in or that to look real. But if if
Speaker 1: you took a few lines before the match, you know
Speaker 1: it might, it won't necessarily make you less sharp. Two
Speaker 1: points one used Ballerina, which was maybe a bad example
Speaker 1: because I know I'm going to get some flak for this,
Speaker 1: But a lot of ballerina's do cocaine, like a lot
Speaker 1: of them, almost all of them. I understand that. Please
Speaker 1: don't send me angry emails. And two two's got it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's been a thing. Um. But I guess
Speaker 1: point two is I don't know. I guess I don't
Speaker 1: know the history well enough to know. You know, maybe
Speaker 1: he was actually a serious wrestler and hated the fact
Speaker 1: that he sold out, and so he wanted to get high,
Speaker 1: so he wasn't so embarrassed by I. I don't think
Speaker 1: that you can get into the sport. I mean he
Speaker 1: started in the sport at fourteen, he started professionally. I
Speaker 1: mean his debut. He was a sixteen year old kid.
Speaker 1: So he at this point you know in the story
Speaker 1: when he dies, he's almost a forty year old man.
Speaker 1: He's been doing it for years. If he had a
Speaker 1: problem with it, if he would have gotten out of here,
Speaker 1: he would have this. It would have been very obvious
Speaker 1: many many years ago. Mostly, I just like you don't
Speaker 1: know why I am why I'm even bringing this stuff up,
Speaker 1: because I feel like it's just not an issue that
Speaker 1: he was doing cocaine. I mean, obviously it's an issue
Speaker 1: that anybody's doing cocaine. But but but there is there's
Speaker 1: a there's a certain level of physical control that you
Speaker 1: have to have to pull off some of these things.
Speaker 1: I mean, you see these crazy flying moves that these
Speaker 1: guys do, and if you are blitzed in any way,
Speaker 1: well it's not heroin. I mean, but if you are
Speaker 1: not in your most soberst state of mind, bad things
Speaker 1: can happen. So that's why I say that. But the
Speaker 1: point is he he's apparently liked his drugs and like
Speaker 1: I said, to put it all the drugs on the table.
Speaker 1: He liked to do coke. And it is also rumored
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of guys at the time and
Speaker 1: previous to him we're doing he was also on anabolic steroids.
Speaker 1: He was on steroids. It's no I thank you, Joe.
Speaker 1: It is very highly suspected, but there is nothing that
Speaker 1: I have found that says definitively he was on steroids.
Speaker 1: He Palaback evidently knew or somebody around him knew that
Speaker 1: there was a problem because he apparently went into rehab
Speaker 1: several times. And I also am under under the understanding
Speaker 1: that Triple A banned him a couple of times. Maybe
Speaker 1: not officially, but he would come and go in the scene.
Speaker 1: If you're missing matches, obviously they're going to do something
Speaker 1: to you. Yeah. I think it was probably something in
Speaker 1: the order of, you know, go away, going to rehab,
Speaker 1: get yourself cleaned up, and they'd come back someday whenever,
Speaker 1: you know, right, And so then they would let him
Speaker 1: come back and he would seem fine, and then the
Speaker 1: process of the cycle would start again, and then things
Speaker 1: would go bad and they'd kick him out. Now, Triple A,
Speaker 1: they were trying to figure out what to do because
Speaker 1: his character was pretty popular and they needed a roudio
Speaker 1: in that he was still winners at that time. No, no,
Speaker 1: he was. He was a bismo negro at this point
Speaker 1: because he had he had gone to that character seven.
Speaker 1: So this character is really fans loved him because he
Speaker 1: was just he did this weird thing. He loved to
Speaker 1: bring out a lighter and a can of hairspray or
Speaker 1: something like that, and he was he was doing the
Speaker 1: flamethrowers and walking down through a crowd of people with
Speaker 1: fire like. People loved this crap, so he was very popular.
Speaker 1: Triple A is trying to figure out what they're gonna
Speaker 1: do because they're very popular. Rudio is suddenly super unreliable,
Speaker 1: and what do they do. They go ahead and they
Speaker 1: introduced a new Rudio who is black Abits in English,
Speaker 1: right in English. Very similar costume slight. I mean if
Speaker 1: if they pitched these guys against each other as a
Speaker 1: gimmick several times and you watch it, I had a
Speaker 1: hard time keeping straight who was who. I had to
Speaker 1: dial the video back to look at the colors of
Speaker 1: who did what because the costumes are so similar. But
Speaker 1: they did this as a way of, well, you know,
Speaker 1: if you kind of screw it up, we're gonna we're
Speaker 1: gonna kick you out and we're just gonna replace you
Speaker 1: with black Abyss, so you know, get your stuff together. Man.
Speaker 1: It's funny, but it didn't seem to fix the problem.
Speaker 1: So let's move to the last days of Pala Machi's life.
Speaker 1: In two thousand nine, Pala Macki took part in the
Speaker 1: King of Kings event which was in Guadalajara, and that
Speaker 1: happened on either the fourteenth or the fifteenth of March
Speaker 1: is when it began. I had a hard time pinning
Speaker 1: down the exact date, but I think that's because the
Speaker 1: reporting is based on matches and not the event itself.
Speaker 1: But the point is he was eliminated in the first round.
Speaker 1: He is then known to have been wrestling at event
Speaker 1: at an event in most Lawn on the sixteenth of March,
Speaker 1: and he was subsequently supposed to be at a match
Speaker 1: on the twenty one at another city in Mexico, and
Speaker 1: he no showed that event event. He was at the
Speaker 1: one on the sixteenth and then didn't show for the
Speaker 1: one five days later on fort Maybe he know you, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's rumored that he stayed in Muslon and he
Speaker 1: went on a coke bender for at least five days,
Speaker 1: until which point he ran out of money. And this,
Speaker 1: by the way, I don't know this for sure. I
Speaker 1: want to put that out there. This is based on
Speaker 1: the reporting that is done. His family has never said this,
Speaker 1: and we don't have a real clear accounting of his
Speaker 1: actions during that time from the match on the sixt forward,
Speaker 1: so we don't know this for sure, this is strongly believed,
Speaker 1: but not not a hundred percent proven. He's either supposed
Speaker 1: to be on the twenty one. He was either supposed
Speaker 1: to be in Monterey or in Cancoon, I don't know
Speaker 1: which one. But instead what he does is he leaves
Speaker 1: mas Lan and he heads home on a bus to
Speaker 1: Mexico City. So it goes in the wrong direction entirely,
Speaker 1: like he just needs bows off the match. He wants
Speaker 1: to go home to get home. Like I said, he
Speaker 1: got on a bus. And this is another bit of
Speaker 1: weirdness in the reporting, which is he got on the
Speaker 1: bus either on Friday or Saturday, the twenty one. And
Speaker 1: here's why I think it's weird is that the bus
Speaker 1: left at twelve thirty in the morning. So my impression
Speaker 1: is at the bus probably actually left on Saturday morning
Speaker 1: at twelve thirty am. Probably, But the way it's reported,
Speaker 1: you'll see it said that he got on a bus
Speaker 1: on Friday, and blah blah blah blah blah. Well maybe
Speaker 1: it was Friday when he went on the bus. He
Speaker 1: certainly probably showed up at the bus day Friday. No,
Speaker 1: but you will also see it said definitively that he
Speaker 1: got on a bus that left at this time, and
Speaker 1: he got and it was his Saturday was the day
Speaker 1: that the bus departed town. Like, it's weirdness, but I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure that morning hours of Saturday and we got
Speaker 1: on Friday night. It's weird. But about an hour into
Speaker 1: the trip, so this is about one thirty am, Palamcha
Speaker 1: reportedly he became agitated. You see this described as having
Speaker 1: a nervous breakdown. Uh, it was to the point that
Speaker 1: he got up. He went to the driver and he
Speaker 1: made the driver of the bus stop the bus and
Speaker 1: he got off the bus on on the edge of
Speaker 1: the highway. Now this happens near the town of El Rosario.
Speaker 1: The bus driver evidently must have reported this to his
Speaker 1: superiors because they knew where they dropped him. How it's miles,
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not, it's it's more like a dozen
Speaker 1: maybe two dozen miles away at the very most, I
Speaker 1: would say, what's it? Oh, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: Mas it lawn to El Rosario. It was an hour drive,
Speaker 1: which means it must have been about fifty miles. I apologized,
Speaker 1: though I was thinking of the bus stopped outside north
Speaker 1: of the town of El Rosario. Based on what I
Speaker 1: figured out. That's where I was getting that mixed up.
Speaker 1: So it's about an hour away, about yep. And he
Speaker 1: walks away from the bus and shortly thereafter Tex his
Speaker 1: wife and says something to the effect of he's lost
Speaker 1: in the dark in the hills. She faring for you
Speaker 1: know him, what's going on? She contacts a promoter that
Speaker 1: they know who's in most lawn to you know, get
Speaker 1: a search party and go look for him. Uh. That
Speaker 1: search party, I have to resume, didn't start that night,
Speaker 1: probably started the next morning. They went around town, they
Speaker 1: showed his picture around, nobody recognized him, at which point
Speaker 1: they began to search outside of the town. They've the
Speaker 1: searchers found Palamas body and I believe it wasn't just
Speaker 1: these private parties. It was by this tend of police. Also, yes,
Speaker 1: the police were involved. Yes, I mean, this is just
Speaker 1: people looking for him, I guess. Is what I meant
Speaker 1: is they started the search party in general. I excluded
Speaker 1: the police. That's my bad. They go looking for him Sunday, March.
Speaker 1: They find his body face down under a bridge in
Speaker 1: a body of water, Like I said, very small body
Speaker 1: of water. It's the dry season. It's one of those bridges.
Speaker 1: You may have seen the sports concrete bridge, and there
Speaker 1: is a river and walls of concrete. Walls have been
Speaker 1: built up on either side, either side of the bank
Speaker 1: of the river vertically, and then the bridge sits on
Speaker 1: top of those, so it makes kind of a channel,
Speaker 1: and the center between the concrete creates a divot. That's
Speaker 1: where the body of water was almost directly under the bridge,
Speaker 1: and that's where his body was found floating, which is weird. Again,
Speaker 1: it's one of the few places where the water could
Speaker 1: have accumulated. Now I in the reading, they never say
Speaker 1: specifically where it is. Did they find a smiley face
Speaker 1: drawn anywhere near the body? Not that I ever saw,
Speaker 1: but it's entirely possible that it may have been cut out.
Speaker 1: He wasn't in college, Okay, sorry, he may have been
Speaker 1: in the Lucha Libre fraternity. Now, as I said before,
Speaker 1: though we don't know exactly. The reporting doesn't specify where
Speaker 1: the bridge is, uh, which this is. This is a failing.
Speaker 1: I reported this, by the way. This is a failing
Speaker 1: on the part of Google Translate. There appears to be
Speaker 1: in the town of El Rosario, a citrus company and
Speaker 1: according to the translated text it is it is a
Speaker 1: bridge that is Citrus Company tall. So I reported that issue,
Speaker 1: but it appears to be several miles north of the
Speaker 1: town on the fifty most lawn Tepic Highway is where
Speaker 1: he was found. Um he was found and the report
Speaker 1: again this is the weird part. The reporting says that
Speaker 1: he the body was found in the Beloirte River, which
Speaker 1: actually is south of the town, and if you look
Speaker 1: at it on satellite, there's these really big bridges with
Speaker 1: big pillars and nothing matches the crime scene photos. There is, however,
Speaker 1: a small stream that flows into the Balarte that starts
Speaker 1: north of the town. It's really weird if you look.
Speaker 1: If you you have to follow the freeway to figure
Speaker 1: out exactly where his body is. The point is he's
Speaker 1: found in the river. I know I took that way
Speaker 1: too far, but so he found in the creek, not
Speaker 1: the river. It's basically it's creek he's found the depression
Speaker 1: in the ground that's full of water. Initially, the official
Speaker 1: cause of death is nervous breakdown caused by steroids, and
Speaker 1: those steroid that nervous breakdown is what caused him to
Speaker 1: fall on the water and get stuck in the mud
Speaker 1: and because he was unable to pull himself out of
Speaker 1: the mud drowned. I mean, I have problems with that,
Speaker 1: but also like I have huge problems with that. But yes,
Speaker 1: frowning is the official cod though. Yeah, I mean if
Speaker 1: I don't know what happens when you're having a nervous breakdown,
Speaker 1: I mean, we're gonna get into the We're gonna get
Speaker 1: this much more. I know, I understand. So let me
Speaker 1: finish this last. We got just the last little bit here,
Speaker 1: and then we'll get into theories. Um, there is an
Speaker 1: autopsy reformed apparently on the body. But once they figured
Speaker 1: out that, yeah, there's water in his lungs, they stopped
Speaker 1: doing anything else because they figured out why he died.
Speaker 1: They don't ever try to figure out what caused his
Speaker 1: mental breakdown, and so they stopped the autopsy when they
Speaker 1: they found the water. They didn't like check his heart
Speaker 1: to see if he had had a heart attack or
Speaker 1: anything like that, or nothing is reported along those lines.
Speaker 1: Nothing says that. And here's the problem is that the
Speaker 1: like I said in the beginning, the initial the medical
Speaker 1: examiners like, well, he was obviously on steroids, and that's
Speaker 1: the problem, and that's what caused all of this, and oh, look,
Speaker 1: I found water in his lungs and I'm done. At
Speaker 1: which point, kind of similarly to what we talked about
Speaker 1: in the Kobaine case, body has turned over to the family.
Speaker 1: The family has the body cremated in a matter of
Speaker 1: days after the fact, and we have no records of
Speaker 1: what was discovered or how much investigation they actually did
Speaker 1: during that autopsy and I have done. I find it
Speaker 1: hard to believe that they would just say, oh, water
Speaker 1: and the lungs, We're done. We're not gonna do anything else.
Speaker 1: That's it. Now, Everybody pack it up. That seems odd
Speaker 1: to me that that's all they reported. But I can't
Speaker 1: imagine in a small town in rural Mexico. It could
Speaker 1: be that I don't have a time or the funding
Speaker 1: to do a whole lot. Look, I found water in
Speaker 1: the lungs. I get to sign off and say this
Speaker 1: is what happened, and get my five minutes in the sun.
Speaker 1: The news loves me. I pronounced a bismo Negro died
Speaker 1: of drowning. But was that guy he said a small town?
Speaker 1: Was he actually a forensic pathologist, or was he perhaps
Speaker 1: just a regular doctor? He was the local medical examiner. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I don't know a local. Does that mean that
Speaker 1: it's a hundred mile radius area? I don't know how
Speaker 1: big of a range he covered. I couldn't find that.
Speaker 1: This is one of those weird it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: kind of an area where there's not a whole lot
Speaker 1: of information available. Well exactly how big of a spread
Speaker 1: he covered. There's one last thing which I know we
Speaker 1: actually talked about this just a little bit ago, which is, uh,
Speaker 1: they one of March, which was a Saturday, Abismo Negro
Speaker 1: should have been there at a match, and and he was.
Speaker 1: He was wrestling. He wrestled that night, and the crowd
Speaker 1: loved it. He was he was already dead, even though
Speaker 1: apparently he was either already dead or happending on a
Speaker 1: train on a bus. Yeah. Yeah, So, uh, this is
Speaker 1: the part I talked about where it was found out
Speaker 1: later on that somebody had dressed up in an outfit
Speaker 1: looking like him and took to the ring. Now Black Abyss,
Speaker 1: the character whose name is in English, had been known
Speaker 1: to come and fill in when he wouldn't show up,
Speaker 1: except Black Abyss was that a rat? Was that a
Speaker 1: match somewhere else? Black abyss. So somebody else had to
Speaker 1: come in there and right, and they didn't say anything
Speaker 1: and it came out and it was a huge egg
Speaker 1: on the face situation. But that's one of those things
Speaker 1: that people use as a conspiracy line of Well, obviously
Speaker 1: they knew that something was happened to it was going
Speaker 1: to happen to him, and they booked somebody else to
Speaker 1: come in as I had a time, somebody had given
Speaker 1: h wind that this thing was going to go down.
Speaker 1: This is one of those things that you see happens wrong,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe or maybe maybe they got wind that
Speaker 1: he was on a five day coke vendor and they
Speaker 1: decided they were going to need a replacement. That's possible,
Speaker 1: absolutely possible. Well let's go ahead and that's the end
Speaker 1: of the story. Let's let's move right into theories because
Speaker 1: there's actually a good number of theories that they're all
Speaker 1: pretty inter linked, but they're kind of like small variants
Speaker 1: on one another a little bit. So theory number one
Speaker 1: is not or actually you know what could be? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what, never steal coke from a chio picabra,
Speaker 1: for though, dude, that's a bad grudge, lifetime grudge. And
Speaker 1: by lifetime. I mean, you're short remaining amount of lifetime.
Speaker 1: You can get your man. Let's get back to reality here,
Speaker 1: which is that the theory is that Palamic was murdered
Speaker 1: by a cocaine dealer and or a car drug cartel. Yes. Um,
Speaker 1: so we talked about the fact that he had a
Speaker 1: penchant for cocaine, apparently according to the reporting. And when
Speaker 1: you like to do lots of drugs, you end up
Speaker 1: hanging out with the people who supply you those drugs,
Speaker 1: and those don't tend to be the most reputable people around.
Speaker 1: So the theory goes that Palamack a um, he's hanging
Speaker 1: out with these people, he pisces off the wrong person,
Speaker 1: presumably a drug dealer, and my guess would be that
Speaker 1: this would have had to have happened in Maslaan, and
Speaker 1: that dealer, that angry drug dealer, then says that you're
Speaker 1: gonna get it. I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna get
Speaker 1: you for this, which is what prompts him to leave
Speaker 1: down quite quickly on a bus and what prompts him
Speaker 1: then to have his panic attack or freak out and
Speaker 1: get off of the bus and send this panic he
Speaker 1: text to his wife I don't know. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's possible that maybe the guy was also texting him,
Speaker 1: though I haven't. I've never found any records of that.
Speaker 1: His wife has never provided anything that supports this at all.
Speaker 1: I suppose his phone was in his pocket when he
Speaker 1: was found, and probably it was wet and they probably
Speaker 1: couldn't really restore anything. I would presume that that would
Speaker 1: be the case. There's no mention of where his phone
Speaker 1: was recovered. That's a that's another interesting fact that actually
Speaker 1: been recovered. Yeah, it might might have dropped it and
Speaker 1: lost it somewhere, but he may very well. But I
Speaker 1: have a few theories on this one. Okay, Well, let
Speaker 1: me let me finish just the theory itself, or do
Speaker 1: you want to you want okay? So basically, this theory
Speaker 1: is that he's in contact with this drug person. I
Speaker 1: know that sounds silly, but drug person, and that freaks
Speaker 1: him out. He gets off the bus. Somehow, they find
Speaker 1: him in either a shove him off of the bridge
Speaker 1: into the water, or are on the bank with him
Speaker 1: and drag him into the water and hold him under
Speaker 1: the water until he expired. Yeah. I just had a
Speaker 1: couple of thoughts. Um, you know in terms of if
Speaker 1: somebody was following him or not. Uh yeah, okay, somebody
Speaker 1: could have been texting him. He could have had an
Speaker 1: additional phone. If he was doing lots of drugs, he
Speaker 1: probably had a burner. Somebody was on the bus with him.
Speaker 1: I thought was the other thing I was gonna say
Speaker 1: is it could have been somebody who's on the bus
Speaker 1: with him, or it could have been that if a
Speaker 1: drug dealer was thinking, oh, I'm going to kill this guy,
Speaker 1: he provided him with some less than pure drugs or
Speaker 1: some drugs with some laced with something of some kind
Speaker 1: that he did right before he got on the bus
Speaker 1: or while he was on the bus that caused his
Speaker 1: panic attack. I mean, it's not a direct hand of
Speaker 1: I literally held this guy's head under the water and
Speaker 1: killed him. But if you send him into a panic
Speaker 1: attack on a bus in the middle of nowhere, he's
Speaker 1: probably going to have a panic attack and somehow find
Speaker 1: himself dead or otherwise locked up. But I wonder if
Speaker 1: somebody couldn't, like go slip him a little LSD, yeah,
Speaker 1: or you know, or all you do is you give
Speaker 1: him bad drugs and then have one of your guys
Speaker 1: be on the bus with him, but just to ensure
Speaker 1: nobody was witness getting off the bus after him. No,
Speaker 1: I don't, and I don't mean that. I mean that.
Speaker 1: You know, you do your drugs and then you start
Speaker 1: to slip into this paranoia and you look up and
Speaker 1: there's one of the guys who is your drug dealer's henchman,
Speaker 1: and you think, oh my god, I have to get
Speaker 1: off this bus. So he gets off the bus and
Speaker 1: nobody follows him, which is fine, but he's still in
Speaker 1: this panic state of what's gonna happen. It's gonna happen,
Speaker 1: have to get away, have to get away, have to
Speaker 1: get away. So the thing about that is is that
Speaker 1: if the henchman is there scaring him, then getting off
Speaker 1: the bus in the middle of nowhere really makes no sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with that, but I'm not. But we're not
Speaker 1: saying that he's as Steve would say, we're not thinking
Speaker 1: rational thought here. Thank you. There's that. But the other
Speaker 1: in too, If you could to send the hit squad
Speaker 1: out to find him, well, number one, how do you
Speaker 1: find him out there in the dark but following the bus.
Speaker 1: If you're in a car following the bus and your
Speaker 1: henchman on the bus, says he just got off to
Speaker 1: see us stop. That's true. Yeah, if I was going
Speaker 1: to go out, I'm gonna have a pretty pretty healthy
Speaker 1: sized team, because I would think that they would use
Speaker 1: weapons that we're not just their hands. Because the guy,
Speaker 1: unless you've dragged him really well. I don't think we
Speaker 1: mentioned it before he got into wrestling. He was in
Speaker 1: a martial arts big time by. He's a big, strong guy.
Speaker 1: He's been doing this for twenty years. That means he's
Speaker 1: he's very muscular, he knows how to handle himself. He
Speaker 1: fights for a living, well kind of, but he does
Speaker 1: physical work for a living. He's a big guy. It's
Speaker 1: not as if I as a scrawny forty year old
Speaker 1: guy with a pot belly. He's gonna run up to
Speaker 1: him and yell at him, and he's really cool, scared
Speaker 1: of you. I'm sorry, he's you going to look at
Speaker 1: me and smack me in the head probably and I'm
Speaker 1: going to have a concussion. So here's another question. We
Speaker 1: said it was dry season, but there was this kind
Speaker 1: of pond area the shore around this dry or this
Speaker 1: pond area. Was it dry or was it wet. It's
Speaker 1: a very good question. There's only two images that I
Speaker 1: could find. Those images seemed to indicate that it was
Speaker 1: kind of a clayish riverbed, and that right up against
Speaker 1: the water it is soppy clay, and then outside of
Speaker 1: that it's kind of hard. Okay, Yeah, that answers. So
Speaker 1: there should be footprints the hard dirt, it's easy to
Speaker 1: get rid of footprints. Clay less wet clay, it's hard,
Speaker 1: very hard to get rid of them. Yeah. But then again,
Speaker 1: if they are footprints there, that's not that's not necessarily
Speaker 1: a shocker anyway, that's true. And also there are enough
Speaker 1: people out searching that there's nothing to say that the
Speaker 1: scene wasn't swamped right, and that the first person who
Speaker 1: was there didn't say and I noticed there were a
Speaker 1: lot of footprints around, they would just be like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, we found him, and everyone could rominate come
Speaker 1: running and say oh we found him, and then yeah,
Speaker 1: next thing, you know that that's when whenever I murder
Speaker 1: somebody that way, I always break several sets of shoes
Speaker 1: along so I can leave a kind of footprints. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's where my shoes have been going. He does have
Speaker 1: small feet, he does you have big feet? One of
Speaker 1: the two. Yeah, Um, let's let's go on the next theory,
Speaker 1: which is that he drowned due to his panic attack
Speaker 1: or psychosis which was caused by his use of steroids. Okay,
Speaker 1: say this again. We don't know that he was on steroids,
Speaker 1: but there is so much freaking talk about it that
Speaker 1: you can't you can't ignorg. Well, it occurs to me
Speaker 1: that it is totally possible, even probable, that the medical
Speaker 1: examiner came back and said yet he drowned. Um, he
Speaker 1: was on a lot of steroids and had a lot
Speaker 1: of co and a lot of other things, and the
Speaker 1: family said, cool, he drowned. You know, you wouldn't necessarily
Speaker 1: then publicized, and he was on tons of drugs and
Speaker 1: he did to himself. He would probably downplay that as
Speaker 1: much as possible and just stayed for for his dignity.
Speaker 1: What were the results of of the toxicology report? If
Speaker 1: one was done, That's a very good question, Joe. I
Speaker 1: never found that because I don't believe it was ever publicized.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. It could have been done. But
Speaker 1: let's let's back this train up for a second. Though
Speaker 1: we say one must have been done, we don't know
Speaker 1: what the standard practice is in this rural, this small area.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to sound like a jerk who is
Speaker 1: belittling the medical practitioners in Mexico by any way or means.
Speaker 1: But we also don't know that based on their funding,
Speaker 1: what what what is their resources? What do they start
Speaker 1: with it? They go, uh, well, the easy thing is,
Speaker 1: let's let's open him up. Oh look waters everywhere? Done deal?
Speaker 1: Uh there, Yeah, it's easy. I mean, we don't know
Speaker 1: and I don't know that, and I don't want to
Speaker 1: put any you know, anything on anybody. But as far
Speaker 1: as I know, that wasn't done. But let's continue to
Speaker 1: run down the steroids line because I got ahold of
Speaker 1: some of our experts and there's a lot of conflicting
Speaker 1: information about the psychological effects of anabolic steroids. Some of
Speaker 1: that stuff about royd rage is, uh it's a little inflated,
Speaker 1: a little bit a little bit inflated. I mean it's
Speaker 1: hard because it's you can't really study it. That's a
Speaker 1: good point. And yeah, so here's the deal on their
Speaker 1: own anabolic steroids, which for anybody who doesn't know, that's
Speaker 1: the thing that guys take to pump themselves up, pomp
Speaker 1: you off, we're going to pomp you up exactly, all right.
Speaker 1: These are the things that people take to get big,
Speaker 1: but they do have the potential to cause behavioral changes.
Speaker 1: Uh And and these behavioral changes don't come on suddenly.
Speaker 1: There are things that build up over time the side effects.
Speaker 1: According to the studies, though, these behavioral side effects only
Speaker 1: occur in two to three percent of users. But there's
Speaker 1: a couple of things to point out about the studies.
Speaker 1: The first of which is that they presume and in
Speaker 1: the studies, the users are only using one kind of steroid. Well,
Speaker 1: it turns out guys who are juicing use multiple types
Speaker 1: at once, and they do what's called pyramiding, where they
Speaker 1: will go in a let's say it's a twelve week rotation,
Speaker 1: so they'll build up for six weeks and taper off
Speaker 1: for six weeks, but two weeks later they'll start another
Speaker 1: kind of steroid. So they're constantly in this cycle with
Speaker 1: multiple kinds at once. Well, in the studies, because their
Speaker 1: clinical studies, they can't do that. That's one thing that's
Speaker 1: not factored in. The Other thing about the studies is
Speaker 1: that they eliminate people who have a potential psychological issue
Speaker 1: like a pre existing one. Yes, yeah, you want blank
Speaker 1: slates case study, but people who do that stuff don't
Speaker 1: aren't blank slates. Yeah, the daring lies and of the problem.
Speaker 1: But Obismo didn't have a history of psychiatric problems, not
Speaker 1: that we know of, no, But I mean the other
Speaker 1: thing that you don't really necessarily take into considerations studies
Speaker 1: like this, Right, Abismo Negro probably had like a couple
Speaker 1: of concussions. Right, there was probably a little bit of
Speaker 1: that sort of thing going on, And we know now
Speaker 1: from a lot of studies that are being done in
Speaker 1: America that that can have profound, prolonged and also delayed
Speaker 1: effects on your brain and the way that it works.
Speaker 1: And so you're also doing steroids on top of that,
Speaker 1: and then those things can just systematically get worse and
Speaker 1: worse and worse. And snorts about a half pound of
Speaker 1: cocaine on top of steroids maybe, and then you're just done.
Speaker 1: The cocaine is okay, So let's let's take the coke
Speaker 1: out of the situation. And this theory is not so
Speaker 1: much centered in the cocaine, but just that let's say
Speaker 1: he's on he's at the peak of a pyramid of
Speaker 1: a cycle of his his steroid use that could have
Speaker 1: been enough to just push him over the edge. So
Speaker 1: then all of this psyche, it all builds up to
Speaker 1: this psychosis where he suddenly has this breakdown on the bus.
Speaker 1: The only thing that kind of lends itself possibly to
Speaker 1: indicate that this could be right, is that I said
Speaker 1: before he was at a match on the sixteenth, because
Speaker 1: he had been at the King of King's match on
Speaker 1: the or the fifteenth, whichever it was, and he got
Speaker 1: knocked out in the first round and then goes to
Speaker 1: this other match, which was sounded like it was kind
Speaker 1: of a house match or a town match. I don't
Speaker 1: you know, it was just kind of a local event,
Speaker 1: but he was booked for it. He was just um
Speaker 1: despondent is the phrase that I saw used. He was
Speaker 1: not happy. He was complaining to the other wrestlers. Now
Speaker 1: maybe that's I'm not getting used enough. They're leaving me
Speaker 1: out because I'm always missing my matches. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know what it is, but people have pointed out
Speaker 1: and say, well, his behavior was he was on kind
Speaker 1: of a downward trend and was about to break. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: he wasn't. He was kind of a downward train. There
Speaker 1: you know. So, Yeah, I would be depressed if I
Speaker 1: were him too. Yeah. And so if you follow the
Speaker 1: final the finality of this, it says that he had
Speaker 1: his break. This is, of course, because it's due to
Speaker 1: the steroids. Steroids caused the break. He then gets off
Speaker 1: of the bus. He is completely unaware of his surroundings
Speaker 1: and either wanders into the water and is so aware
Speaker 1: that he aspirates water and drowns, or we've said this before.
Speaker 1: The water is shallow, like waist deep shallow. It's entirely
Speaker 1: possible that he was on the bridge. He wanders over
Speaker 1: the edge of the bridge and falls over the rail.
Speaker 1: How how high was the bridge? Though? I would say
Speaker 1: that that bridge was twenty high? Joe, what is that meters?
Speaker 1: By the way, that's sweat three? I would uh, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess I would say that if you found face
Speaker 1: first off of something like that, you your face would
Speaker 1: be pretty mashed up. That'd be something I actually I
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time thinking about this. Let's say
Speaker 1: he falls off the railing and he lands uh anywhere
Speaker 1: that is not head first, so he is in a
Speaker 1: prone position when he hits he's bruising lots of lots
Speaker 1: of outward damage will happen from a fall like that,
Speaker 1: but not enough that I think that if he's been
Speaker 1: soaking in the drink for a day, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: super noticeable. And my point is that he would be
Speaker 1: stunned and then drowned. That's that's I You're right, there
Speaker 1: should be outward signs, but there's a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: details of outward signs that we have no record. I'm
Speaker 1: kind of I'm kind of doubting. And they fell off
Speaker 1: the bridge though, because I don't know what the standards
Speaker 1: are for railings in Mexico, but I assume you're kind
Speaker 1: of similar to what we have here. Oh yeah, No,
Speaker 1: it's it's a roadsign bridge. It's about Waiste High. I
Speaker 1: mean I've seen. I was on Google Maps, I was
Speaker 1: pulling a Joe. I was on Google Maps do and
Speaker 1: street View, and I drove across that bridge and it's
Speaker 1: about Waist High. Yeah, so if you seriously want to
Speaker 1: get over that, you're gonna probably do it deliberately. You're
Speaker 1: not just gonna trip and fall off, well you might well.
Speaker 1: The one thing. The other thing I do want to
Speaker 1: just point out real quick here is I don't know
Speaker 1: if you guys have seen this video or not, because
Speaker 1: I know we're going to talk about more. He was
Speaker 1: just panicking and drowned theories. There's this video of this
Speaker 1: little kid who I don't know, I remember where he is,
Speaker 1: but he's like probably five or six years old, and
Speaker 1: he's clinging to a rope, floating on his back like
Speaker 1: crying because he thinks he's going to drown until suddenly
Speaker 1: his older sister or mom or somebody comes over and
Speaker 1: just kind of pushes his legs down and it turns
Speaker 1: out it's been like lower than waist deep this water
Speaker 1: the entire time. But he was so sure, and I've
Speaker 1: seen this happen to other people too. You sometimes you
Speaker 1: get so sure that you're drowning, you just panic and
Speaker 1: don't do anything actually helpful. You're just thinking you're drowning, right,
Speaker 1: you just seize up, or you start flailing around thinking,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm drowning because my face is covered
Speaker 1: in water, without thinking my back is dry though, or
Speaker 1: I could stand up. You know, if you're if you're
Speaker 1: entirely submerged, your head is entirely submerged, You're probably just
Speaker 1: going to think I'm drowning. And if you're already having
Speaker 1: a panic attack or some kind of mental break, you're
Speaker 1: probably not going to be able to do anything helpful.
Speaker 1: So do you want to bring that up a little bit? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's as we talked about that in saying that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's only waist deep, but it's still waist deep, and
Speaker 1: that's enough to submerge your head fully. So and and
Speaker 1: and I also, I'm gonna move a theory that was
Speaker 1: at the end of this. I'm gonna actually shuttle this forward.
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about this now, which is that let's
Speaker 1: take the psychological break out of it. Okay, it's entirely possible.
Speaker 1: So I can't explain why he got off the bridge
Speaker 1: or off of the bus. Excuse me, I can't explain
Speaker 1: why he got off the bus. But when I talk
Speaker 1: about the fall bit, it's entirely possible. He's in the dark.
Speaker 1: It's one thirty in the morning. He can't see a
Speaker 1: damn thing. It's actually well passed one by the time
Speaker 1: he actually fell into that hole and round probably. Okay,
Speaker 1: so it's two in the morning, three in the morning something.
Speaker 1: It's pitch blackout, he can't see crap, and so the
Speaker 1: whole he fell over the railing. He could have literally
Speaker 1: been walking. Have you ever walked into a wall in
Speaker 1: the dark and had no idea it was there. He
Speaker 1: could have been walking and suddenly just pitched over the
Speaker 1: rail and went down because he had no idea where
Speaker 1: he was. It's entirely possible. Do I think that's what happened.
Speaker 1: But because we're bringing this up there, and and the
Speaker 1: water line below the bridge, the lip of the bridge
Speaker 1: where he was found, it's not a straight line. It's
Speaker 1: kind of an undulating shape. So he would have either
Speaker 1: if he fell off the top of the bridge, he
Speaker 1: would have either a hit the water or be hit
Speaker 1: the ground. And I'm pretty sure he didn't hit the
Speaker 1: ground because there's no impression of his body in the shore.
Speaker 1: And also would be really hard for him to hit
Speaker 1: hard enough to bounce into the water, which makes me
Speaker 1: think that he would have hit the water, which again
Speaker 1: brings me to he could have hit just right. We
Speaker 1: talked about this all the time. The odds of this
Speaker 1: are phenomenal, but it's possible. It's just right. Where does
Speaker 1: it leave any outward signs? But it stuns him and
Speaker 1: he drowns well, and Also, if you do a belly
Speaker 1: flop on the water, it's gonna knock the wind out
Speaker 1: and you're gonna suck in and you're gonna dry and
Speaker 1: they draw a lot of water. And when you do that,
Speaker 1: there's there's also that phenomenon which I experienced one time rafting.
Speaker 1: And I don't know how cold that water was, but
Speaker 1: when you hit really cold water, I can't imagine it
Speaker 1: was cold, Joe. It was the dry season. This is March, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I suppose it wouldn't been that cold. It's not
Speaker 1: freezing cold. Gasp reflex. It's just a gasp reflex because
Speaker 1: you hit the water, get the water, or the wind
Speaker 1: knocked out of you, or you get or you're so
Speaker 1: stunned you just like out of it. And yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I I tend to think he just stumbled into it
Speaker 1: or maybe fell off the bridge myself. Yeah. Well, let's
Speaker 1: let's keep going though, because we've I mean, we've talked
Speaker 1: about this enough so far, but we got more theories. Okay,
Speaker 1: next theory is that this is and this is related
Speaker 1: very similar to the last one. Is that the one
Speaker 1: before last? Yeah, yeah, because I did, I moved one up.
Speaker 1: He drowned. His panic attack or psychosis, whichever it is,
Speaker 1: was caused by actually not steroids, but steroid withdrawal, because
Speaker 1: one of our experts that I was talking with was
Speaker 1: bringing up the fact that, yeah, while the psychosis can happen,
Speaker 1: it actually is a little more prevalent when somebody goes
Speaker 1: called turkey. That's the problem is you just suddenly get
Speaker 1: off the sauce and um, that might have been what
Speaker 1: caused him to go office trolley as they say, and
Speaker 1: then get off the bus, be so confused, and whatever
Speaker 1: happens for him to be end up in the water happens.
Speaker 1: Is it steroid withdraw What? What withdraws that that makes
Speaker 1: you really thirsty? Do you know from water? I think
Speaker 1: like that you need water, Yeah, if you haven't had
Speaker 1: water for a couple of days. Why they're like there
Speaker 1: are a certain drug withdraws there are. I'm just wondering
Speaker 1: if maybe like he was going to withdrawal of some
Speaker 1: kind and I saw this little thing of water and
Speaker 1: thought I will drink from that, but was so messed
Speaker 1: up he just went in head first. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean when he's when he's when he's drowning. Technically,
Speaker 1: and technically, um, but we're gonna go to the next one,
Speaker 1: which is very similar again, which is that his panic
Speaker 1: attack or psychosis was caused by none other in cocaine,
Speaker 1: because like we talked about, he seems to have really
Speaker 1: enjoyed it, and the this is a list of side
Speaker 1: effects that I found. The short term side effects of
Speaker 1: cocaine are anxiety, paranoia, panic, and some other forms of psychosis.
Speaker 1: And because he's a user of it, he likes it,
Speaker 1: he would fall into the category of long term effects.
Speaker 1: Those would be auditory and tactile hallucinations other known otherwise
Speaker 1: known as hearing things and feeling things on your skin.
Speaker 1: That's a common description, disorientation, delirium, and confusion. So coke bender,
Speaker 1: jump off bus, fall off bridge, end up in water
Speaker 1: is kind of the short of what this one is.
Speaker 1: He was probably lost to which they believe me. It
Speaker 1: is kind of a panicky feeling, right yeah, yeah, in
Speaker 1: in the very dark of night, and you know, we
Speaker 1: had a cell phone, but we don't know if it
Speaker 1: had a good flash on it for him to use.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so he probably did. He might have had
Speaker 1: a smartphone that he might have had a smart phone.
Speaker 1: He might not. Yeah, we don't know that for sure.
Speaker 1: Moving on again, we have one last theory, which I
Speaker 1: actually think personally I find to be my preferred theory,
Speaker 1: which is that he drowned or fell due to a
Speaker 1: stroke or a heart attacks not unusual if you've been
Speaker 1: doing a lot of coke. Heart attacks are not uncommon.
Speaker 1: It's also not unknown or unprecedented when you've been doing steroids,
Speaker 1: because steroids um are known to cause people to have
Speaker 1: strokes and heart attacks. And this isn't necessarily for heavy users.
Speaker 1: This is just like casual users who work it into
Speaker 1: their workout routine and suddenly have it. It just they
Speaker 1: just suddenly, with no signs previously have a stroke, have
Speaker 1: a heart attack because they decided they were gonna juice
Speaker 1: and this happens. By the way, did either of you
Speaker 1: look up the slang for steroids? No, what slang is that?
Speaker 1: The names that it gets this is the best thing ever.
Speaker 1: So I've said it a couple of its juicing, but
Speaker 1: they call it juicing Jim Candy, Pumpers, Roid's stackers, and
Speaker 1: are you ready for it? Arnold's that's my favorite. But
Speaker 1: the swart Sky the short skis are no own for
Speaker 1: causing heart attacks and for causing strokes. So it could
Speaker 1: have been he's on the or maybe it was the coke.
Speaker 1: He's on the bus, he's in the beginning of a
Speaker 1: heart attack or a stroke, which is known to be
Speaker 1: a state of delirium. It's not just delirium, it's also
Speaker 1: causes you to be panicked and uncomfortable, yes, like very uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: and also oftentimes like hot, and you try to escape
Speaker 1: all of the situations that you're in, pointing at her
Speaker 1: with the yes finger. Yeah, that's the S finger, you know,
Speaker 1: both of those. And again it's it doesn't necessarily have
Speaker 1: to be drug induced. It could have been that it
Speaker 1: was just a blood clot from an injury. It could
Speaker 1: be that he just lived a hard lifestyle. It could
Speaker 1: be that he was genetically predispositions disciposed to that, disposed
Speaker 1: to that maybe. But I mean, if it was a
Speaker 1: small stroke and all it did was really incapacitate him
Speaker 1: for enough time that he fell into water and also drowned,
Speaker 1: it's not unreasonable to assume that the emmy would miss
Speaker 1: something like that. In addition to that, also heard and
Speaker 1: a cursory medical examination or a cursory yeah, if you
Speaker 1: if you see water in the lungs, you're not going
Speaker 1: to also do an extensive exam of the heart and
Speaker 1: brain to see if they had a heart attack or
Speaker 1: blood clots or damage. Yet, you know, I can understand
Speaker 1: why somebody would immediately jump to the drowning conclusion. But
Speaker 1: the thing about it was is he was a strong guy.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say he was totally healthy, but
Speaker 1: he's probably fairly healthy. Part with the he fell in
Speaker 1: the mud out and couldn't get out, and so what
Speaker 1: would incapacitate somebody. We'll gonna be a heart attack, thank you.
Speaker 1: That's why I look at something else. It's got to
Speaker 1: have debilitated him, because if you have a stroker, you're
Speaker 1: in the throes of a heart attack, your body is
Speaker 1: not going to respond. And as I said before, if
Speaker 1: you're even partially in the water, you're going to breathe
Speaker 1: it in, then you're going to drown it. Also, those
Speaker 1: also I able way to go maybe lend a little
Speaker 1: more credence to the fact that he did try to
Speaker 1: contact his wife. You know, the other theories that we've
Speaker 1: talked about, we say he was hallucinating, he was in
Speaker 1: a delirium, but people who are having these really huge
Speaker 1: psychotic breaks don't necessarily text their significant other and say
Speaker 1: I'm lost in the middle of the woods. You probably
Speaker 1: don't contact them, or you say don't you think about it?
Speaker 1: Or you say you know the mushrooms are coming for me,
Speaker 1: or like something right. I mean, you're not gonna say
Speaker 1: very calmly, hey, I'm lost in the woods. And Grant said,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen the text, so I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly what his demeanor was, but it would also
Speaker 1: lead credence to you know, a heart attack or something
Speaker 1: where you say, okay, I was just getting out and
Speaker 1: this happened, or you maybe he had a heart attack
Speaker 1: and then a stroke. The the tone is stripped away.
Speaker 1: That's why simple text messages can cause giant controversy because
Speaker 1: of the fact that you don't know which way they're
Speaker 1: meant to go or and they don't. I am lost
Speaker 1: does not say angrily I'm lost or panically who I mean?
Speaker 1: That doesn't come through. But none of those are hallucinatory reaction. True,
Speaker 1: that is a strange thing. I mean, you know, here
Speaker 1: does this looney thing, which is get off the bus,
Speaker 1: and he does a rational thing which to send a
Speaker 1: text to his wife. Yeah, so I don't know if
Speaker 1: he was fading any hut or what I mean. Obviously,
Speaker 1: if he was having a stroke or having something that's
Speaker 1: going wrong, staying on the bus and telling the driver
Speaker 1: to go faster probably would have been a better solution.
Speaker 1: That was another four to six hours to his destination,
Speaker 1: or tell him the turn around. Oh you're saying, go
Speaker 1: faster so I can get to help. Yeah, okay, it's
Speaker 1: only a fifty four minute drive or something bad According
Speaker 1: to Google, which is probably on a bus, that's probably
Speaker 1: like an hour and something. Um drive from uh point
Speaker 1: A to point B in the town El Rose, Ario
Speaker 1: or wherever it was close to it was. It's not
Speaker 1: that long, so they were pretty dang close. It would
Speaker 1: have been easy for him to say, I think something's
Speaker 1: wrong with me, get me a doctor. But it could have.
Speaker 1: All My point was he may have said, oh my god,
Speaker 1: something's wrong. Get me to Mexico City now, is the
Speaker 1: way I was saying. So when Joe says make the
Speaker 1: bust go faster, say he's no Ail Rosarios there, he
Speaker 1: may not realize. But usually you would say I don't
Speaker 1: feel good, I need a doctor and they would just
Speaker 1: find a hospital or something. Right. As a good bus driver,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't just say okay, cool, get off right here, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's here. Here's my catchphrase, rational thinking. If he but
Speaker 1: that's I'm on your side on that. But I think
Speaker 1: you know, I I know enough about first aid and
Speaker 1: what people go through first aid care in general, emergency care,
Speaker 1: and what people go through with heart attacks, with strokes,
Speaker 1: with things of that nature, and the reaction is escape,
Speaker 1: just get out. That's one of the things they tell
Speaker 1: you to look for in situations like that is if
Speaker 1: someone's nervous and agitated, it's a huge sign that something
Speaker 1: going wrong inside their body and that you should get
Speaker 1: them emergency care as soon as possible or administered. So again,
Speaker 1: so he stumbles around the darkness, falls into a mud
Speaker 1: puddle and having a heart attack stroke dies. That's it?
Speaker 1: Are we in Are we in consensus? Here? My I'm
Speaker 1: not locked into what caused it. I think that he
Speaker 1: had either a stroke or a heart attack, but I
Speaker 1: don't know what caused him to end up in the water.
Speaker 1: That's my problem is that I see one of those
Speaker 1: as leading him there, but I don't know why it
Speaker 1: came about. And and maybe it is just one of
Speaker 1: those damn random things. But that that's so, I don't
Speaker 1: know that we're in consensus because I'm I'm not even
Speaker 1: settled or not even in consensus with yourself. No, No,
Speaker 1: as as usual. Yeah that I said to his family.
Speaker 1: Ever raised a stink about this with anybody raising his suspicions? No, No,
Speaker 1: I mean his his wife. You know. They she had
Speaker 1: him cremated, They had a ceremony. There was a bajillion
Speaker 1: luchadors there. Black Abyss. His career kind of ended after that.
Speaker 1: He tried to go on and take over the mantle
Speaker 1: of a bismol negro. That didn't go on. He was
Speaker 1: going to go as a bismol negro too. That didn't work,
Speaker 1: Like I mean, but that was it. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: this whole weird thing in the luchador society, but she
Speaker 1: just she stepped away from it, as at least from
Speaker 1: the reporting side of what's been reported. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: that does lead credence to the fact that maybe there
Speaker 1: was something additional in the report, in the autopsy report,
Speaker 1: that they're just not making public, which would be understandable. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well there is that. So let's give everybody the the
Speaker 1: administrative details that they need to know, which is that
Speaker 1: this uh this episode and all other episodes are available
Speaker 1: on our website. We will of course have links to
Speaker 1: some of the research on this story. I will let
Speaker 1: everybody know that if you're going to do additional research,
Speaker 1: make sure you've got a browser that translates, because a
Speaker 1: lot of this is in Spanish, but you can. I
Speaker 1: will try and put some of the English versions on
Speaker 1: our website. Website is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. By
Speaker 1: the way, for folks who have not yet noticed, we
Speaker 1: don't have comments on the website anymore. That's unfortunately because
Speaker 1: it was being abused. We had to chuck that down,
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