1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: There were echoes of the Watergate hearings more than forty 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: years ago. Yesterday, as for nearly three hours, former FBI 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Director James Comy testified in the most anticipated, highest profile 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: congressional testimony in decades, giving details of his interaction was 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: President President Donald Trump, who fired him answering question after 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: question from senators. He called the President a liar on 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: several occasions, and afterwards, the President's lawyer called Comei a liar. 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: The testimony drew sharp reactions partisan for the most part. 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: Here Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer after hearing Mr Comey's testimony, Today, 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: America is stunned. The crowd hanging over this administration has 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: just gotten a whole lot darker. And how Speaker Paul Ryan, 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: the President's knew at this. He's new to government and 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: so he probably wasn't steeped in the long running protocols. 14 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: Trump did not tweet until this morning, when he declared 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: victory despite so many quote, despite so many false statements 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: and lies, total and complete vindication. One thing everyone does 17 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: agree on is that this is far from over. Here 18 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: to discuss Comey's testimony and the legal fallout our former 19 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: federal prosecutor. Jeffrey Kramer, managing director of the Berkeley Research Group, 20 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: and Stephen Ryan, a partner at McDermott, will and Emery 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: and former General counsel to the U. S. Senate Committee 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: on Governmental Affairs. So much has been said about Comey's testimony, 23 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: so let me ask you both to give your reaction 24 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: to his testimony and its import Jeff, let's start with you. 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: Uh sure, I certainly agree was it was? It was monumental, 26 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: and we did have sort of a preview, given the 27 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: fact that Mr Comey releases statement beforehand, But as we 28 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: knew of the question and answer PURI was was more revealing. 29 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: Um as the indicator told a friend basically, who let 30 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: a reporter know about this? Which is how we learned 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: about it. But I think Jim Comey struck a struck 32 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: a perfect core between just giving the facts and giving 33 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: us really an inside view into that conversation, which is 34 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: unique unto itself, but then also opinting a little bit 35 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: on whether or not the President overstepped his bounce. Stephen, Well, 36 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: you know, I think we're off on a multi month 37 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: and maybe your investigation and the only vote about the 38 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: investigation that really counts as Bob Mueller's the special counsel. 39 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: And so when we look at Comy six months from 40 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: now or a year from now, this was the John 41 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: Dene testimony of this period. Um. But what the end 42 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: result of that is is not not yet clear. Much 43 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: of the talk for weeks has been whether or not 44 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: Trump committed obstruction of justice. Comey said that he wouldn't 45 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: make that conclusion himself, but his testimony laid out a 46 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: case for obstruction of justice, and legal experts that I've 47 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: been reading are divided. Jeff, what's your take on obstruction 48 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: of justice? Yeah, I think reasonable minds can consideringly differ 49 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: on this. But your points will taken. Is that well, 50 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: Jim Comey didn't give a final answer yes or knowing 51 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: his opinion, he did kind of lay out a couple 52 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: of the elements and and and knowingly so um And 53 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: can the president even be charged sitting president even be 54 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: charged with obstruction? You know? Just quickly you look at 55 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: and any federal prosecutor has been doing this for a while, 56 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: has done some obstruction cases. You look at someone's words 57 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: and actions, and the President has given us his words, 58 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: some through Jim Comey, but also his tweet as to 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: why he fired him, and then you look at his actions. 60 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: He fired an individual who was arguably invest making an 61 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: investigation he didn't want. I think it's a it's a 62 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: it's a tough cause. At the end of the day, 63 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: as it was indicated, you know, Bob Mueller will lay 64 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: things out and there's certainly smoke here. Is there enough 65 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: to charge and if you even we can probably not. 66 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: But it's unfortunate or even this close to the line. Steve, 67 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: there's the obstruction of justice. There's also a possible case 68 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: for abuse of power. What's your take on it? Well, look, 69 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: I think the president's choice to have these conversations with 70 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: Comey was ill advised, and I think, uh no one 71 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: could argue that in retrospect, once you have conversations of 72 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: that type and fire the person, you've become vulnerable to 73 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: these charges. You could have fired him for what you 74 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: thought of him beforehand, but once the conversations occur, you've 75 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: become a hostage of him. And that's what we're seeing 76 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: play out at this point. I think, based on what 77 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: we heard yesterday, the work that the Special Council will 78 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: have to do will be to look at what other 79 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: conversations to the president have and with whom? What do 80 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: other people in this investigation? No, uh, that that relates 81 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: to the president. So, for example, does Michael General Michael 82 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: Flynn knows something or was there a conversation between the 83 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: President and Flynn that eventually the Special Council will know about? 84 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: And so what we have is a kaleidoscope where at 85 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: the center you have the Comy testimony about the president. 86 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: What we don't have is the President's actual version of that, 87 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: which one would conceive is quite different. I've been talking 88 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: with former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Kramer, now managing director of 89 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: the Berkeley Research Group, and Stephen Ryan, a partner at McDermott, 90 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: will and Emery and former General Counsel to the U. S. 91 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, about fired FBI Director James 92 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: Comey's testimony. Now, there was some word today that from 93 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: Trump's private attorney that he plans to file a leak 94 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: complaint against Comy. According to a person close to the 95 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: President's legal team, he said that um he would file 96 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: that with the General, with the Justice Department Inspector General, 97 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: and the Senate Judiciary Committee. Stephen, tell me a little 98 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: bit about whether it's a crime to leak something private 99 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: the way Comey did, Well, it would be a crime 100 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: if it was grand jury information. It would be a 101 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: crime if it was classified information, and he didn't have 102 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: the authority to declassify it. The documents that are the 103 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: information that he's released don't appear to be in those categories. 104 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: But it's certainly, I think is an appropriate tactic for 105 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: the President's lawyer to raise, uh, the appropriateness of that 106 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: action when the Justice Department looks at it. It's it's 107 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: not going to violate I believe the Justice departments laws, 108 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: but it's certainly is inconsistent with procedures for those of 109 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: us who served at the Justice Department, as I did 110 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: in my colleague on the Hall, Jeff. At this point, 111 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: Comey is a private citizen, so he's still subject to 112 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: Justice Department rules and what kind of you know, what 113 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: does the inspector General do issue a report? I mean, 114 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: are there any possibility of charges? Well, a couple of things. 115 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: I mean, if he still worked for the Department of 116 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: Justice and violated rules and regulations and they could take 117 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: certain employment actions. Obviously he doesn't work there anymore, so 118 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: that's gone in the Inspector General could examine this and 119 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: see if a referral is appropriate. I don't think it 120 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: is uh for U d o J to investigate criminally. 121 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that lies. So at the end of it, 122 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: the Inspector General will obviously take this seriously. UH, we'll 123 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: examine to issue a report. But I think it just 124 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: it ends right there. Let's also talk a little bit 125 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: about the President's attorney referred to the conversations that Comey 126 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: had with President Trump as privileged. Is there any sense, Steve, 127 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: in which these were privileged. Well, the attorney client privilege 128 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: didn't exist because the President wasn't using Comy as the 129 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: government lawyer to advise them, So there's no attorney client privilege. 130 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: The other privilege that the president has is the executive privilege, 131 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: but that wasn't invoked in this case. Had it been invoked, 132 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: it might be a different situation because the direction would 133 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: have been that Comy shouldn't testify. The White House chose 134 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: to do the opposite. So there's the sense of privileges 135 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: that when you're in the Oval office or in the 136 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: in the dining room of the White House with the President, 137 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: the conversation should remain confidential, and I think we all 138 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: feel that way we've ever dealt with the president. But 139 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: in this case, you know, these these men are going 140 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: into each other hammer and tongues, and this is what 141 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: you get when you do that, Jeff. A question that 142 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: I've been asked repeatedly is because Comy been said in 143 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: his testimony that the President had the authority to ask 144 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: the FBI to drop the criminal investigation, So why not 145 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: just tell him to drop the criminal investigation if he 146 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: had the authority instead of going in a roundabout way. Yeah, 147 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: it is. It is a fine line here, and he's 148 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: head of the executive branch, which is d O J 149 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: and ultimately obviously Jim Comey. But he does use euphemisms 150 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: in the sense that he hopes against dismissed or it 151 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: hopes it doesn't it doesn't get pursued. So the President 152 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: could have been a little more overt, but politically that 153 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: would have been an obvious problem. Um, So he uses 154 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: words like I hope this doesn't get pursued. And normally 155 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: when someone hopes something, as as some of the questioning 156 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: was yesterday, I think by the centator from from Idaho, 157 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: the word hope doesn't really get you to obstruction of 158 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: justice or any criminal act. However, this is the President 159 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: of United States telling someone who works for him that 160 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: he hopes something happened that has in locations. So while 161 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: the President could have simply told him, don't pursue this, 162 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 1: that has political ramifications, so he was a little little 163 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: cute with his words, Steve. There has been talk that 164 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: President Trump has tapes of these conversations. There's been no 165 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: word from the White House confirming or denying that. What's 166 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: the next step we expect on this? Do I mean, 167 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: do we expect to see that? You know, there's a 168 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: subpoena coming from Muller Well, I think the traditional way 169 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: a Special Council would deal with the President would be 170 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: to ask UH for a definitive answer from the White 171 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: House about whether they exist or not. In the Watergate, 172 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: which clearly the tapes were the central issue ultimately that 173 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: led to President Nixon's resignation, there was a subpoena both 174 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: from the then Independent Council, which is the equivalent for 175 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: all purposes of the Special Council, and there was a 176 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: Senate subpoena from the Senate Watergate Committee, and so UH 177 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: subpoena's can be issued to the White House, and courts 178 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: hate that issue because it puts the court between the 179 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: other two branches of government. It's a very uncomfortable place. 180 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: Um So, this is an issue that has to play 181 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: out over time, and the answer is either there are tapes, 182 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: whether or not. And if there are tapes, um Miller 183 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: is going to eventually listen to them in about thirty seconds. Jeff, 184 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: how long could Mueller's investigation take ball, Well, you know, 185 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: there's there's no time frame on it. It's not going 186 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: to take a month. But by the same token, I 187 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: don't think we're still gonna be wondering about it in 188 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: a year. So somewhere in there, if I were a 189 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: betting man, I would say, you know, right after the 190 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: New year, let's call it, you know, February, March, maybe 191 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: into April. Bob Mueller has his staff at his disposal. 192 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: He's basically got unlimited resources, and it's a finite tuge 193 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: of investigation. This is not an investigation that goes back 194 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: ten years. Uh So he's going to do it as 195 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: quickly as possible, knowing after a certain I have to 196 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: stop you there. We could go on forever that's thanks 197 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: to both of you. That's Jeffrey Kramer of the Berkeley 198 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: Research Group and Stephen Ryan of McDermott, Will and Emery 199 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: coming up the Dodd Frank Act and its future. This 200 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg